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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Rustpunk
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2010.11.16 02:25:00 -
[121]
For those criticizing CCP Morpheus: the job of IA isn't to arbitrate the actual GM decisions. Rather, they verify that no corruption was involved (e.g. the GM having ties to the parties which he's "judging", etc.) The specifics of whether the decision adheres to CCP GM policies, IG rules, etc. gets left to the senior GMs and their management.
So an honest GM mistake isn't IA's problem, hence the phrasing of Morpheus's post.
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Rommell Drako
Death By Association Violent Intent
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Posted - 2010.11.16 02:29:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Rustpunk For those criticizing CCP Morpheus: the job of IA isn't to arbitrate the actual GM decisions. Rather, they verify that no corruption was involved (e.g. the GM having ties to the parties which he's "judging", etc.) The specifics of whether the decision adheres to CCP GM policies, IG rules, etc. gets left to the senior GMs and their management.
So an honest GM mistake isn't IA's problem, hence the phrasing of Morpheus's post.
Thank you Rustpunk. That makes me personally feel a little better.
Now what about the error in the decision making of the retraction. Does CCP need to have a better test of game mechanics for GM acceptance. More detailed looking into whether or not there is a connection?
Thanks to Rustpunk for providing progressive information. Any more is greatly appreciated, player or CCP provided.
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podlol
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Posted - 2010.11.16 02:48:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Rustpunk For those criticizing CCP Morpheus: the job of IA isn't to arbitrate the actual GM decisions. Rather, they verify that no corruption was involved (e.g. the GM having ties to the parties which he's "judging", etc.) The specifics of whether the decision adheres to CCP GM policies, IG rules, etc. gets left to the senior GMs and their management.
So an honest GM mistake isn't IA's problem, hence the phrasing of Morpheus's post.
HOW BOUT CCP MORPHEUS EXPLAIN IT HIMSELF IN A DEV BLOG. UNLESS YOUR A GM ALT RUSTPUNK, I DONT WANA HEAR WHAT YOU THINK HAPPENED.
NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED!!!! THATS TEH ****ING POINT OF US DEMANDING INTERNAL AFFAIRS TO INVESTIGATE AND POST A DEVBLOG.... SO TEH ENTIRE COMUNITY KNOWS THE TRUTH DUDE.
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thelung187
Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.16 02:55:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 16/11/2010 01:12:16 Four Edits later...
Originally by: Lubomir Penev
Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 16/11/2010 00:22:14
Originally by: Rommell Drako If FA is not insulted by the fact that a GM helped them or is capable of this then it just proves that you were in on it.
This statement asserts that because Fatal Ascension has not yet been demonstrably offended over this issue, they must be co-conspirators.
Actually for a GM to make a mess of the situation someone had to petition, who else but fatal Ascension?
Someone within Fatal Ascension petitioned about it. This doesn't mean the alliance's leadership is involved with some sort of conspiracy, but it doesn't preclude the possibility either.
If this thread is any indication, there needs to be public correspondence about what decisions the Game Masters make and why they have made them. As with the TCU case, decisions that are made and actions that are taken without past precedent and without public statements to accompany them have resulted in controversy. I doubt this trend will cease without a change in Game Master correspondence policies. This is the real problem which needs to be addressed, and it is one that has been plaguing the game for years.
Since the job of a Game Master is to act on infractions of the game's rules, a Game Master must first decide if an infraction has in fact taken place before acting to remedy these infringements. However, these decisions, the reasoning behind them, and the subsequent actions are not logged publicly, even though they have very public consequences.
Game Master decisions, rationality and resulting actions that have public repercussions should be made available to the public. Dozens of controversies over the game's lifetime could have been averted by making these types of public issues open for all to see. Today, Eve Online's rules are presented by a non-comprehensive End User License Agreement and a Game Master Correspondence system which is automatically placed under a loosely enforced gag order. It's clear that a new system is needed.
+285. The transparency the community has been promised for so long has yet to be even remotely realized. Terrible decision making and an inability to properly handle any sort of public relations infraction have plagued this game since before even the days of t20, and is hidden behind the guise of the protection of individual privacy and an end-user license agreement that seems like it was written by community-college paralegals with a forty-seventh chromosome.
CCP needs to seriously re-examine their internal processes, be it Game Masters who don't grasp the fundamentals of game mechanics, or Internal Affairs personnel who turn the other cheek and say "well shucks" when prompted with a situation that can't be resolved with "the logs show nothing." Step up.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2010.11.16 02:55:00 -
[125]
Originally by: podlol RANT RANT RANT.
Little known fact: Posting in all caps gets your point across more clearly and makes people take you seriously.
While I agree that there is something weird going on here, and that CCP really should make some sort of public statement, your way of going about this is more than irritating. TBH you are more likely to alienate yourself and your viewpoint if you continue with your tinfoil hat ranting, incessant cross-posting, and general douchery.
Taxman IX: Risky Venture
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podlol
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Posted - 2010.11.16 03:01:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Originally by: podlol RANT RANT RANT.
Little known fact: Posting in all caps gets your point across more clearly and makes people take you seriously.
While I agree that there is something weird going on here, and that CCP really should make some sort of public statement, your way of going about this is more than irritating. TBH you are more likely to alienate yourself and your viewpoint if you continue with your tinfoil hat ranting, incessant cross-posting, and general douchery.
WE DEMAND THE TRANSPARENCY THAT WAS PROMISED TO THE COMMUNITY. WE DEMAND INTERNAL AFFAIRS TO CONDUCT A THOROUGH INVESTIGATION AND DEV BLOG ABOUT IT. WE DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY AND PUNISHMENT OF CORRUPT GMS. WE DEMAND ANSWERS AND ACTION CCP!!!!!!!!!!
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Roosterton
Eternal Frontier Saints Amongst Sinners
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Posted - 2010.11.16 03:06:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Originally by: podlol RANT RANT RANT.
Little known fact: Posting in all caps gets your point across more clearly and makes people take you seriously.
While I agree that there is something weird going on here, and that CCP really should make some sort of public statement, your way of going about this is more than irritating. TBH you are more likely to alienate yourself and your viewpoint if you continue with your tinfoil hat ranting, incessant cross-posting, and general douchery.
You just bit a troll. Good job -------- Enemy corps raided into disbandment: Three.
Originally by: Tarminic
OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?! |
Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.11.16 03:23:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Aerion Va'rr
Originally by: Zagdul Stuff.. 0.0... this is Dotlan *sigh*... stuff
Thanks for the stereotypical "we're in 0.0" response, we know that this war may have minimal impact on you, we know that several freighters made dozens of trips out of Jita the minute the dec dropped, we know, that killing all your morons in Empire is effectively just helping you weed them out anyway.
What you keep overlooking..WE WERE PAID TO KILL YOUR IDIOTS. We are enjoying it, I'm glad the GM's decided against reimbursing them at our request (we wern't very happy about all that when it was first mentioned). So I'm sure denying you trade hub access in Empire for however long we feel like doing it won't bother you at all.
hey bud...
Why the claims of our gains in 0.0 then? What exactly were you trying to imply?
Just sayin'.
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Schwa88
Death By Association Violent Intent
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Posted - 2010.11.16 03:37:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Aerion Va'rr
Originally by: Zagdul Stuff.. 0.0... this is Dotlan *sigh*... stuff
Thanks for the stereotypical "we're in 0.0" response, we know that this war may have minimal impact on you, we know that several freighters made dozens of trips out of Jita the minute the dec dropped, we know, that killing all your morons in Empire is effectively just helping you weed them out anyway.
What you keep overlooking..WE WERE PAID TO KILL YOUR IDIOTS. We are enjoying it, I'm glad the GM's decided against reimbursing them at our request (we wern't very happy about all that when it was first mentioned). So I'm sure denying you trade hub access in Empire for however long we feel like doing it won't bother you at all.
hey bud...
Why the claims of our gains in 0.0 then? What exactly were you trying to imply?
Just sayin'.
Our point was that it seems convenient, do you read the thread? Or just say things?
Just sayin'.
We saw serious amounts of stuff being hauled in the time that you were "safe", whether or not it actually had any impact on 0.0 ops is totally irrelevant. All we know is what we saw.
We can only know more once we get a legitimate response from CCP, so all the arm-waving can cease kthx. All it does is detract from the foul play on CCP's behalf, this really has nothing to do with FA. I don't know what you heroes are doing here anyways, when you should be out supporting your logistics. You know, like running security for any Providences' that might be jumping in EC-P8R?
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Aerion Va'rr
Dead Pilots Society Violent Intent
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Posted - 2010.11.16 03:38:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Aerion Va''rr on 16/11/2010 03:44:12
Originally by: Zagdul
Why the claims of our gains in 0.0 then? What exactly were you trying to imply?
Just sayin'.
Your the one that linked DOTlan, you don't know how to view recent SOV changes? Its only minorly coincidental that they happened within the first hours of the dec being retracted. I'm not implying anything other then its just odd. The entire situation just sits really strange with not only me, but just about everyone else as well.
Since in all respects you stay in 0.0, we are no threat to your and yours, and you "are not concerned with Empire wars" why do you keep responding since apparently, this doesn't involve you? I'm not the smartest man in the world, but you sure are acting awfully guilty.
There really is no proof as of now that there is any foul play, and this could all be one big coincidence; I somehow doubt it though. The GM's already said someone on their team made an error and all they could really do is offer us an apology and say it won't happen again. I'm left with two opinions as to what this whole situation really is... and thats us either giving -FA- entirely to much credit, thinking you can tip the scales in your favor when in all other aspects we've witnessed you guys are pretty fail; Or this is the worst attempt ever at trying to make a bad situation better, and there was a bit of corruption involved.
In either case, its distracted me enough. Going to re-divert my attention back to camping your 'idiots' in Empire. Why don't you do them a favor and explain simple things to them, for starters, Remote Sensor Boosters and Machariels (50 Ships later they still don't seem to understand).
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Dracoknight
Gallente Standards and Practices
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Posted - 2010.11.16 05:04:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Roosterton Edited by: Roosterton on 16/11/2010 02:15:43 Did anyone actually read my post? Yes, it's a **** up. The GMs forgot the rules, etc. But waving your finger around making accusations that they are cheating and corrupt, without evidence, is extremely childish.
To the person who said GMs don't just end wars without consulting others, how do you know? Have you worked for CCP? Do you have any idea how they operate? Maybe the company trusts its employees to work independently? I have no idea either, but having no idea isn't an excuse for having no evidence.
Well, the major problem is that the trust in GMs is or were already broken quite some time, EVE have a rather loyal player base and is not rotating that fast in players so the current base dont forget mistakes as fast either. ( the "BOB-Happy-Dev" episode comes to mind ) and those kinds of actions dont water out as easily as in other MMORPGs.
However, it seems CCP themselves makes a blunder of trying to "hide" this behind postes of fine words but no actual meaning but saying in a nice way "we are looking into it, but we already know" which is why people jump on those conspiracy theories as it actually makes sense due to CCPs inernals vague responses so far.
In my personal opinion, i think this case is more smelly than a barrel of rotten fish...
p.s Also the "big mighty alliance" that smacktalks: you might be big in zero-zero, but Empire hold a whole different setting which make your regular zero-zero fleet null and void. ____________________
I wish my Thorax could use missiles... |
The PitBoss
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.11.16 05:05:00 -
[132]
Error or not .. This will be dealt with
Thank-You,
The Pitboss
Signatures by: Kalen Vox |
Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.11.16 05:05:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Zagdul on 16/11/2010 05:11:19
You're right, I'm guilty as charged.
This war dec was too much for -FA- to deal with so we batphoned our GM buddy to pull the plug.
Please be sure to quote this and get this on Evenews24 asap. Originally by: Dracoknight
p.s Also the "big mighty alliance" that smacktalks: you might be big in zero-zero, but Empire hold a whole different setting which make your regular zero-zero fleet null and void.
HAHAHA
I had a full mouth of coffee when reading this.
brb with some towels to clean off my monitor. Originally by: The PitBoss Error or not .. This will be dealt with
Please be sure to copy and paste your war dec to CCP Alliance.
If you catch us on your way, please make proper use of Locator Agents in order to find our empire dwellers who feel the need to line their wallets while the rest of us fight off IT Alliance.
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Aerion Va'rr
Dead Pilots Society Violent Intent
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Posted - 2010.11.16 05:17:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Zagdul while the rest of us fight off IT Alliance.
For the record- we're currently shooting them too. Shame they actually think before they undock, and have a plan. IT has more cap pilots then your alliance has members.
Do you have anything meaningful to say? Or are you going to force us to listen to your drivel longer?
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Schwa88
Death By Association Violent Intent
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Posted - 2010.11.16 05:21:00 -
[135]
I had to lol at that one too, FA big in 0.0? That's hilarious. They're nobodies, merely thorns in IT's side.
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.11.16 05:35:00 -
[136]
Are you guys like RP'ing mercs or something?
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Aerion Va'rr
Dead Pilots Society Violent Intent
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Posted - 2010.11.16 05:45:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Zagdul Are you guys like RP'ing mercs or something?
Yeah.. To-tally.. like oh my gosh we can't wait to join CVA! ...Moron.
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.11.16 05:57:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Schwa88 I had to lol at that one too, FA big in 0.0? That's hilarious. They're nobodies, merely thorns in IT's side.
Thorns? You are too generous with your words. |
Rheige Bladewhisper
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Posted - 2010.11.16 06:04:00 -
[139]
Originally by: CCP Morpheus Hi, I'm CCP Morpheus, Internal Affairs Specialist at CCP.
I have looked into this matter and found that these GM actions were warranted. There is a paper trail of emails, defects and petitions directly related to this case. I can't go into more detail on a public forum, but the affected parties will have their concerns addressed via petitions. A Senior GM will be replying to your CEO's petition as soon as possible.
Internal Affairs is reachable by email at "[email protected]".
Best regards, CCP Morpheus
You all damn well NEED to start being able to go into more detail on a public forum. Especially since the GM in question apparently sent out an apology letter that indicates that this was very much not warranted in the slightest.
Morpheus, either the GM in question was complicit in trying to aid friends beyond the scope of the game... or he was incompetent beyond the scope of what should be allowed for a GM. One way or the other, you need to have transparency. You need to start showing what goes on behind the scenes... because from our vantage point, this is increasingly looking like several GMs are getting away with favoritism without anything being done about it.
Remember, trust is a currency. Do you really need to be expending it on defending a GM that doesn't deserve defending? |
Schwa88
Death By Association Violent Intent
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Posted - 2010.11.16 06:04:00 -
[140]
You're much too liberal with yours. That's my "generous" way of saying wtf are you on about. |
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Veebora
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.16 06:25:00 -
[141]
CCP rules a game with no rules, and they apply this "rule" also to them.
They do what ever they want, they are also in a sandbox of the real world.
They grief and they scam, just like in game.
So love it or drop it, even if it is as sad as possible.
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Hegbard
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Posted - 2010.11.16 06:37:00 -
[142]
You actually believe that people in 0.0 care enough about your war decs to ask GMs to do something. How cute.
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Aerion Va'rr
Dead Pilots Society Violent Intent
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Posted - 2010.11.16 06:56:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Hegbard You actually believe that people in 0.0 care enough about your war decs to ask GMs to do something. How cute.
You actually think we care about your opinion? This was never about the 0.0 counterpart of FA. Its about the corp we're paid to dec that ran screaming and joined FA. We're not interested in their SOV, Their Caps, Their CTA's or any of that nonsense.
It was rather strange how once the dec went cold, Freighters undocked from Jita all day, coincidentally timed about an hour before they started taking SOV in 0.0. We're not interested in 0.0 operations for the last time, We don't care about their SOV. We didn't like having a GM interfere with our War Dec because he perceived it to be a exploit (which it wasn't, and this is paraphrasing a GMs response for all you naysayers).
Take your 0.0 PvP Arguments elsewhere, this thread has very little to do with 0.0, and is more in line with questioning WHY our dec was reversed. Why our alliance executor got a partial refund to his personal wallet. Why there was no reasoning, notice or mails from the GM Staff to mention what we may or may not have done.
(Moreover- we don't care about your post count, if you don't have anything constructive to say about the original purpose of this thread; by all means redirect your attention elsewhere this forum is full of other meaningless topics you can fill with nonsense.)
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Rythm
Caldari True Power Team P0WER 0F TW0
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Posted - 2010.11.16 07:07:00 -
[144]
I i understood correctly. IA determined that "official" characters of the GM involved are not affilated with other party, though they have no way to find out if said GM's girlfriend had a freighter full of stuff locked down in Jita. There were petitions from wardecced party about not having 24 hours grace period. There was case of Test TCUs. Thus innocent until proved guilty GM actions were deemed correct.
AFK |
OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.11.16 07:12:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Hegbard You actually believe that people in 0.0 care enough about your war decs to ask GMs to do something. How cute.
In this case they clearly did and have admitted as much.
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Rheige Bladewhisper
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Posted - 2010.11.16 07:24:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Hegbard You actually believe that people in 0.0 care enough about your war decs to ask GMs to do something. How cute.
Well seeing as how the entire reason this conversation is being had is because someone petitioned a GM...
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2010.11.16 07:51:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Rheige Bladewhisper
Originally by: Hegbard You actually believe that people in 0.0 care enough about your war decs to ask GMs to do something. How cute.
Well seeing as how the entire reason this conversation is being had is because someone petitioned a GM...
Well it might be possible that a total outsider monitored the issue from the side and made a petition about it. After all we have the people not affected by the wardec posting about how much it totally didn't bother them. They just had a freighter train move out of highsec immediately after the dec was removed for totally unrelated reasons, and the GM who claimed otherwise was so incompetent, that he propably was mistaken about where the petition originated too. I'm sure you'll agree that this is the most plausable scenario and I'm sure the CCP IA would also find nothing wrong with it.
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Dracoknight
Gallente Standards and Practices
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Posted - 2010.11.16 08:27:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Zagdul Edited by: Zagdul on 16/11/2010 05:11:19
Originally by: Dracoknight
p.s Also the "big mighty alliance" that smacktalks: you might be big in zero-zero, but Empire hold a whole different setting which make your regular zero-zero fleet null and void.
HAHAHA
I had a full mouth of coffee when reading this.
brb with some towels to clean off my monitor.
Okay.... what CAN you do in empire then?
Remember: No caps, No bubbles and Lots of neutrals. ____________________
I wish my Thorax could use missiles... |
Sverige Pahis
Caldari Random Selection. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2010.11.16 08:55:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Aerion Va'rr
Originally by: Zagdul while the rest of us fight off IT Alliance.
For the record- we're currently shooting them too. Shame they actually think before they undock, and have a plan. IT has more cap pilots then your alliance has members.
Do you have anything meaningful to say? Or are you going to force us to listen to your drivel longer?
Ah, this'll be why you're being punished by the GM... nobody fights IT without batphone mediated intervention .
No but seriously I don't think there's any tinfoilhattery involved, I just think it's been a GM ignorant of the proper rules who's messed you over. I do think it should be escalated and dealt with properly though.
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Moral Virologist
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Posted - 2010.11.16 08:59:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Antonius Lee Edited by: Antonius Lee on 16/11/2010 00:12:21 CCP Morpheus and the GM team,
I think you are accorded the benefit of the doubt considering your position and employment; however, based on the information that I have read in this thread and the short and ambiguous responses of CCP Morpheus, I am forced to assume that there was an embarrassing error on the part of a GM that resulted in an unfair advantage being given to a group of players.
As I understand it, this unfairness was resolved by giving back to the advantaged players what they lost in the first place to valid game mechanics. The fact that the losses of the other party were also refunded is irrelevant, especially considering these losses were minuscule in comparison.
According to what I've learned from this thread, this situation was not only poorly handled to begin with, but the mishandling was then compounded by a frankly deceitful post from CCP Morpheus. Listed below are my concerns with what has transpired (as I have observed from this thread):
1. A CCP Employee failed to understand a basic and rather obvious game mechanic and penalized a group of players for his own failure. 2. The CCP IA team investigated the incident, including going over a "paper trail of emails, defects, and petitions" related to it. None of these documents have been referenced by CCP Morpheus in his responses in this thread. Neither have the names of the GMs responsible for this been mentioned. There is thus no evidence to support any of the claims made by CCP, though ample documentation has been provided by players to show that they followed legitimate mechanics to achieve their goals. 3. The reimbursement that the wronged players received was smaller than that of the players who were given an unfair advantage. In fact, the wronged players were further penalized by CCP in that their enemies (who they fought using legitimate means) were allowed to fulfill their goals.
The only recourse that will show a decent level of honesty and transparency from CCP would be a public apology (in this thread and in a dev blog) from the GM responsible and an explanation of how a similar situation will be avoided in the future and of the punishment that the guilty GM will receive. Such an apology would make me satisfied with the GM team. Anything less would be, according to what I've experienced in the game and in this thread, would leave the player base with a damaging distrust for the GMs and for CCP in general.
A big thank you to Aerion and Violent Intent for bringing this to everyone's attention.
TL;DR: /me is mad, want blood, grrrrr.
I fully agree with this post.
Whether the GM was acting maliciously or simply ignorantly, the situation was handled inapropriately.
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