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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.27 14:17:00 -
[601]
Originally by: Aerilis 1. Your speech is completely unintelligible. 2. Your (bad) fitting choices and low SP are hardly a priority for CCP in their decision with what to do with the Drake. 3. Stop posting.
Too fat.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2010.10.27 14:31:00 -
[602]
Drake is perfectly fine the way it is, you cant have both gank and tank without using implants or having high fitting skills and although it is arguably considered the best bc its not by a large enough margin to call it op
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.10.27 15:24:00 -
[603]
600th Post Mega Snipe!
I fell off the Sniper wagon...
So who is winning the Nerf, don't Nerf battle?
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
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Travis Musgrat
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Posted - 2010.10.27 15:55:00 -
[604]
Drakes are only overpowered because other ship classes to counter them have been severely nerfed. The main thing that kills drakes is light dictor bubbles. Drakes eat light dictors for breakfast. Drakes also get infinite cap in lag due to mwd cycles taking very long. Also the lack of remote reps in lag means that drakes can alpha anything, with sufficient numbers.
So CCP, it's really just the fact that drakes are cheap, their alpha works very well in lag without having to track anything, their tank is nice, bombers are ineffective because in lag bombs will travel 100s of kms before exploding, and even if they work, they work way better against other fleet shiptypes, (fleet bs, rr bs) they can permamwd in lag which means ****tor bubbles don't hold them down, as if they ever held any fleets down nowadays. The other reason passive tanks get used far more often than active tanks is because there's too many people in this game, and people can call too many friends if you show up in a double rep megathron.
You have 2 choices. If lag will persist, then nerf the cap of the drake, and nerf its alpha. Keep the drone bay, the drones are not what make it overpowered. But if lag is going to go away, even in chunks, you need to balance everything else. Don't look at 1 ship that bad balancing and lag make attractive, go back and boost the things you've so sorely nerfed. The fast hacs used to be able to eat drakes for breakfast, now a Vaga can't even get off a gate when it needs to without being tackled. ****tors used to be able to fly circles around other ships except interceptors, and it's not like they were stupid overpowered, I killed them all the time, and look at them now, they're flying death coffins. You literally cannot bring a light dictor to a fleet fight with anything other than implants, a cloak, and a maxed claymore/loki, and expect to do anything other than die the first time you try to bubble a fleet.
So I know I'm going off topic, but I also hope CCP is smart enough to realize that you cannot balance just 1 ship without talking about the balance of its counters. I've flown with drake gangs, the huge 200 man ones that you're all talking about, and really, there are 2 choices. You can nerf it if you're not going to pay attention to other balance issues. Or you can balance certain other ships (dictors, active tankers, bombers), keep fixing lag 1 step at a time, and leave the drake alone.
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.10.27 18:13:00 -
[605]
Thread needs more blue bars after 20 pages of rage, trolling, disbelief, and general chaos. Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.27 21:18:00 -
[606]
Originally by: Travis Musgrat leave the drake alone.
this
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MeBreakdown
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Posted - 2010.10.27 23:20:00 -
[607]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: darius mclever Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 20:51:06 so instead of workaround the missile issue with nerfing drakes so they get less popular ... how about fixing missiles instead?
(and yes i use missile boats a lot, in different flavors)
All cards are on the table, we are merely analyzing for now with a high degree of concern its rapid rise in popularity and being open about it. The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others. The rest is scenario specific and not a fault of the drake.
Consider the two issues separate if you will, the balance vs the rest of the class and the load it creates in fleet fight scenarios. We do indeed hope to address all missiles at some point. This is merely a heads up on an early stage investigation where nothing is set in stone.
i suggest just adding more to the other battlecruisers, that will balance it out and more people will fly the other races in fleet.
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Nocturnal miner
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Posted - 2010.10.27 23:46:00 -
[608]
easy fix (no idea if it has been suggested yet) to be in line with the raven and caracal, much like other tier 2 bc's
10% missile velocity bonus instead of shield resist
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Htrag
The Carebear Stare Hydroponic Zone
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Posted - 2010.10.28 00:57:00 -
[609]
Drake is fine. The whining is pathetic.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.28 01:27:00 -
[610]
Originally by: Nocturnal miner easy fix (no idea if it has been suggested yet) to be in line with the raven and caracal, much like other tier 2 bc's
10% missile velocity bonus instead of shield resist
Great, a range bonus. Now buff missile velocity significantly so they can actually take advantage of this, then buff missile precision so stuff like HAMs can hit for reasonable damage outside tackle range.
Oops, your "easy fix" isn't looking so easy any more is it?
Drake is fine, nerf the ability to back a fleet with 50 logistics instead. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.28 02:10:00 -
[611]
If the Drake was anything like the detractors are suggesting you would see them being used regularly in low-sec and small gangs. You don't because there are far better choices.
The Drake is not on the chopping block because it is overpowered. The problem (as CCP said) is missile spam lagging the servers. It is this spam that CCP wants to eliminate. Sadly, the best way to do so is to break the Drake so that few will use it.
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Treslor
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Posted - 2010.10.28 03:38:00 -
[612]
Originally by: OT Smithers If the Drake was anything like the detractors are suggesting you would see them being used regularly in low-sec and small gangs. You don't because there are far better choices.
What? Yes you do. In fact, I don't think I've been in any engagement of 3 bc-sized ships or more in the past two months where at least one of them wasn't a drake.
Quote: The Drake is not on the chopping block because it is overpowered. The problem (as CCP said) is missile spam lagging the servers. It is this spam that CCP wants to eliminate. Sadly, the best way to do so is to break the Drake so that few will use it.
Might want to read the dev post in this thread again. They're looking at two separate issues. One is the missile spam lag, yes. The other concern is why the drake has become so popular, so quickly. When everybody's using it and the alternative ships get left on the sidelines for most large engagements, it usually points to an imbalance
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.28 03:43:00 -
[613]
Originally by: Nocturnalto be in line with the raven and caracal[/quote
To be ****, you mean?
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.28 03:49:00 -
[614]
Originally by: Treslor
Originally by: OT Smithers The other concern is why the drake has become so popular, so quickly.
Because of AHAC popularity. Drake is cheap counter for them. Nerf AHACs - you won't see so much drakes.
Quote: alternative ships get left on the sidelines
You posted it like Caldari have other useful PVP T1 ship. Also not the Caldari only. In entire EVE Drake is the only decent missile boat.
Quote: it usually points to an imbalance
And it's imbalance of the other ships, not the drake.
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Treslor
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Posted - 2010.10.28 04:31:00 -
[615]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji Because of AHAC popularity. Drake is cheap counter for them. Nerf AHACs - you won't see so much drakes.
You don't honestly believe that, do you? People will go with what they know. If AHAC gangs get nerfed, that just makes drakes an even better counter and even less reason not to fly one
Quote: You posted it like Caldari have other useful PVP T1 ship. Also not the Caldari only. In entire EVE Drake is the only decent missile boat.
I wouldn't be opposed to boosts for other caldari non-ewar ships, particularly the turreted ones if it goes hand-in-hand with a general hybrid boost. But this thread is about the drake specifically.
Quote: And it's imbalance of the other ships, not the drake.
Possibly. But then again, should a bc have the same EHP as a battleship? Why can it be fit for long range so easily compared to everything else? And if the other bcs are underpowered at long range, what about other (non-bc) ships that must sacrifice tank and damage for range? Should they be boosted too?
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Loac
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Posted - 2010.10.28 04:41:00 -
[616]
Originally by: OT Smithers If the Drake was anything like the detractors are suggesting you would see them being used regularly in low-sec and small gangs. You don't because there are far better choices.
The Drake is not on the chopping block because it is overpowered. The problem (as CCP said) is missile spam lagging the servers. It is this spam that CCP wants to eliminate. Sadly, the best way to do so is to break the Drake so that few will use it.
This. Easy/not so easy fix. 1. Eliminate the missile graphics 2. Make missiles insta hit 3. At the end of doing 1 and 2 ensure the DPS of missiles remains the same as it is now. End result, no buff, no nerf.
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lupusmoon
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Posted - 2010.10.28 06:18:00 -
[617]
why do ppl want a shield/missile ship to act the same as a armor/turret ship? turret are best at mid/close range while missiles are best at mid/long range. the drake doesnt have to give up dps for range cause its missiles NOT turrets.
it doesnt lose tank for dps cause its a SHIELD tank - and shields go mid slot not low slot where most dmg mods go.
on the other had it gives up tackle/ewar for its tank where as armor does not.
ppl should jut use there heads more and counter them. no ALL BC's should not be able to fight for the same dps at the same ranges with the same tank. what would be the point?
missile ships suck at close range and shield tanks generally have no/poor tackle relying more on a support ship to tackle its target at close range. so get in close and tackle these drakes and watch them pop.
or i guess keep trying to make close range ships fight at extreme range against them and watch you go pop.
and no i dont think we need to make the drake use HAM's over HML's. cause forcing a shield tank with no tackle to fight at close range against other ships that will fly 'better' at close range and 'with' tackle will just render the drake useless yet again in pvp.
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Rellana
DAB Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.10.28 07:45:00 -
[618]
The problem isn't that drakes need to be nerfed ,it's that the other races don't have a ship equilavent to the drake,so the other races need to have there battlecruisers looked as and a ship equivalent to the drake need to be given to them.The drake is a Generic ship class that everyone can bring which the other races don't have,which needs to be changed,as fleets of Myrimdons/Harbingers/hurricanes don't work. Also Battleship need to be changed/upgunned as right now there's whole races of BS that are useless in combat,which shouldn't be the case for Battleship-class ships. Imean anyone here remember the days where Torps ravens did AOE or cruise-sniper ravens setups? Now the whole raven BS class has been nerfed effectively..
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William Cooly
Sol Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.10.28 12:10:00 -
[619]
I am sick and tired of these mutha****in' Drakes in this mutha****in' game!
Originally by: Templar Dane Tanking is not a role.
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Selling Slave
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Posted - 2010.10.28 12:47:00 -
[620]
Originally by: OT Smithers The Drake is not on the chopping block because it is overpowered. The problem (as CCP said) is missile spam lagging the servers. It is this spam that CCP wants to eliminate. Sadly, the best way to do so is to break the Drake so that few will use it.
Yes, lets ruin the drake, an make it useless, because CCP fails at fixing the lag issue. They blow smoke up our arses all the while "trying" to fix things, but coming up short. I have seen 5 year old kids lie better then CCP does. Matter of fact, CCP has been so full of it, so often, if I was a stock holder, I would call for a vote of no confidence in whomever is running CCP, for failure to hire people who have an understanding of programming. I don't give a good god damn if I have no programming ability, I would at least find someone who does, that way things would get taken care of.
The drake isn't broken, EvE just hasn't been fixed properly, an at the rate things are going, will it ever?
EvE could be so much more then it is, even diamonds need to be polished ...
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.28 14:56:00 -
[621]
Originally by: Treslor You don't honestly believe that, do you? People will go with what they know. If AHAC gangs get nerfed, that just makes drakes an even better counter and even less reason not to one
The Drake gangs was the counter for an AHAC gangs. AHAC are the reason drake become popular so rapidly, cuz they weren't boosted even a bit since Drake appeared in the game.
Quote: Possibly. But then again, should a bc have the same EHP as a battleship?
If you lurk in the terms "battleship" and "battlecruiser" (in navy) you'll see that both ship types have almost same kind of armor, pretty same size, but battleruisers lack in damage & guns. And even in game BCs aren't really smaller than BS, so if you don't see them just as lower level ships than BS, and they're not since they're just another, dead end (now) branch of basic ships (can be seen with no doubt if you look at skill tree) after cruisers. Let's say frigs are "Class 1", then destroyers are "Class 1.A", cruisers are "Class 2", BS are "Class 3" and BC are "Class 3.A". They're just a little weaker and smaller. Standard cruisers have much more difference with BCs than BCs have with BSes.
Quote: Why can it be fit for long range so easily compared to everything else?
Cuz it can't be fit for close range so easily compared to everything else. It's like balance between yin and yang, which are different from each other, but that difference balancing it. Like fire unable to cool you and water unable to fry you.
Quote: what about other (non-bc) ships that must sacrifice tank and damage for range?
Not really. Any shield-tanking ship have to sacrifice EWAR for tank, but no need to kill tank and damage for range. We just don't have enough decent shield-tanked ships ingame for everyone to see it clearly. That's not true only for drake.
Quote: Should they be boosted too?
Every ship which is useless today shood be boosted. I like to see complex warfare with most ships in fleet and not the 3-4 ship only game.
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.28 15:00:00 -
[622]
Originally by: Selling Slave
Yes, lets ruin the drake, an make it useless, because CCP fails...etc *RAGE* etc
FACTS: The people at CCP are PROFESSIONAL game developers with years of experience running a successful MMO. Their opinions are backed by data and education and experience, their actions by their own paychecks. This is a big deal to CCP because it is important to a lot of players.
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Selling Slave
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Posted - 2010.10.28 15:54:00 -
[623]
Originally by: OT Smithers The problem (as CCP said) is missile spam lagging the servers. It is this spam that CCP wants to eliminate. Sadly, the best way to do so is to break the Drake so that few will use it.
Originally by: OT Smithers FACTS: The people at CCP are PROFESSIONAL game developers with years of experience running a successful MMO. Their opinions are backed by data and education and experience, their actions by their own paychecks. This is a big deal to CCP because it is important to a lot of players.
So, break the drake because CCP can't fix missle spam lag? You know how dumb that sounds? As for rage, you turn what I say into something it isn't, you read into what I say an see something that isn't intended to be there. It's right in front of you, CCP has failed over an over again to fix the lag, all they do is come up with excuses why it isn't fixed. EvE is no where near as successful as it could be, it could be so much more. It isn't rage that drives someone to say what I say, its frustration. Frustration from not being able to play EvE an enjoy it to its fullness, instead, it lets you down. No, it may look an sound like rage, but it isn't. I just wanna play the game as it was intended to be. Instead of fixing it, they come up with an excuse, that doesn't sound professional at all.
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K'racker
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.10.28 16:37:00 -
[624]
is it possible to change player missiles the way fighter bombers are being fixed? it seems to be identical problem. i don't know if making 'fake' missiles changes the way defenders or smartbombs work against them, nothing is mentioned about that.
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=809
so that could be the lag problem sorted, even more so once game improvements allow grouping weapons in fleet battles again.
you can practically subsitute "drake" for "fighter bomber" in the entire blog. except for the part about them being boosted recently.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.28 17:02:00 -
[625]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/skyral/thefirewall.mp4 if you want to download it.
Dont worry about drakes. They're easily countered.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2010.10.28 17:51:00 -
[626]
Originally by: Malcanis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/skyral/thefirewall.mp4 if you want to download it.
Dont worry about drakes. They're easily countered.
We have no doubt that new strategies would emerge given time as posted earlier in the thread (though smartbombs also are quite load heavy albeit pretty - nice vid btw!). It still does not change the reality that we want to ensure enjoyable fleet fights for all which is our primary objective for fleet fights. Currently the drake and the many fleets utilizing it are burdening the server with much higher load simultaneously being the chief cause of the lag and then resilient to lags effects since over the sheer weight of fleet numbers we need to cope with.
The logical path is to drill down and find the root cause of this popularity, something we have done by posing the question openly with you all as well to which many of you have objectively or passionately replied and broached the topic nicely which has been very cool to see. If the reason is imbalance in the ship itself or with the missiles, then its typically something that is straight forward to change in a much shorter time frame than our longer term investigation and refactoring of the missile system for example which would take significantly more man-hours (lots and lots comparatively but it will be done someday).
The fighter bombers are receiving fake missiles but changing missiles you are I fire from a ship takes a lot more design and code work since we need to redo many of the game mechanics surrounding missiles if that is to happen and is not something we would label short term or even medium term to an extent given the size of the change.
As CCP Atlas commented on here, we are exploring all possibilities right now. One thing that has risen from our analysis of fleet fights for example of the many drake pilots, is that only half are grouping their launchers. This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:16:00 -
[627]
Edited by: darius mclever on 28/10/2010 18:20:37
Originally by: Malcanis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/skyral/thefirewall.mp4 if you want to download it.
Dont worry about drakes. They're easily countered.
nice work!:)
observations from my few fights with drakes in the last days: 1. perma running mwd Even if i wanted to cut it off so I wouldnt drift out of the range of the hostile ships so quickly it just doesnt react in time. happened often enough that it took like 1-3 minutes until it actually turned on or off. that said ... i went for leaving it runing all the time, even when orbiting a fleet anchor. so for now i am happy about that cap recharge bug.
2. weapon and targeting lag in the same range as the mwd, i missed a few primaries because i couldnt lock them before they died. especially ewar mods seems to get stuck more than the turrets, at least for me.
3. cant comment on the shield recharge, because i wasnt really shot at.
what was amazing ... in the last fight as soon as the hostiles warped off in one fight the server load dropped instantly and i almost capped out because i didnt notice the cap usage/recharge went back to normal level. the server recovered almost instantly.
discussed the whole lag/overload issue with a friend and we wonder if it would help if you slow down the tickrate if you get too many commands per second. so by default lets say we run with 100 ticks per second, if you notice that the server reaches the maximum, you slow down the "time" on that node. what would normally have a cycle time of 10s, would get 11s, if thats not enough 12s and so on.
that would reduce the number of events per seconds again and might bring it back to a level where the server can react more smoothly. the idea would be to keep the total events/s at a rate that the server can manage.
(edit: fix typo)
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Hori To
Masuat'aa Matari
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:29:00 -
[628]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Malcanis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/skyral/thefirewall.mp4 if you want to download it.
Dont worry about drakes. They're easily countered.
We have no doubt that new strategies would emerge given time as posted earlier in the thread (though smartbombs also are quite load heavy albeit pretty - nice vid btw!). It still does not change the reality that we want to ensure enjoyable fleet fights for all which is our primary objective for fleet fights. Currently the drake and the many fleets utilizing it are burdening the server with much higher load simultaneously being the chief cause of the lag and then resilient to lags effects since over the sheer weight of fleet numbers we need to cope with.
The logical path is to drill down and find the root cause of this popularity, something we have done by posing the question openly with you all as well to which many of you have objectively or passionately replied and broached the topic nicely which has been very cool to see. If the reason is imbalance in the ship itself or with the missiles, then its typically something that is straight forward to change in a much shorter time frame than our longer term investigation and refactoring of the missile system for example which would take significantly more man-hours (lots and lots comparatively but it will be done someday).
The fighter bombers are receiving fake missiles but changing missiles you are I fire from a ship takes a lot more design and code work since we need to redo many of the game mechanics surrounding missiles if that is to happen and is not something we would label short term or even medium term to an extent given the size of the change.
As CCP Atlas commented on here, we are exploring all possibilities right now. One thing that has risen from our analysis of fleet fights for example of the many drake pilots, is that only half are grouping their launchers. This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well.
been told to ungroup guns for fleet fights, because ungrouped guns perform better under laggy conditions.
I also hope that you are aware that the only noobship (Low SP req and easy to fly) ship in eve fleet fights atm are the drake. And that ahac > bs > drake > ahac is a good thing. |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:37:00 -
[629]
Originally by: Hori To
been told to ungroup guns for fleet fights, because ungrouped guns perform better under laggy conditions.
We are aware of this request from FCs to do this and why. It is also being worked as well with potential good changes going out to remedy this this.
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Kaliba Mort
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:57:00 -
[630]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well.
Easy answer. Each launcher on ship adds 20% penalty to launcher cycle time. Each launcher that is part of a group decreases base cycle time by 20%.
So 7 ungrouped launchers on a drake = base_cycle * 2.4
All stacked, no change.
This would at least get you 3 or less groups. This could be extended to all weapons.
People that don't group guns and missiles are otherwise referred to as killboard *****s - they want to get on more killmails. Drones also create tons of lag and can't group those.
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