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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.04 17:17:00 -
[1]
So we all know how everyone says Drakes are OP, but I'd like to bring a new side of this discussion to the forefront--the long range, HML Drake.
I have recently learned (the hard way) that Drakes can dominate long-range battlecruiser combat--check out this fit:
Quote: [Drake, hml] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
This setup does 561 DPS with drones (60km) and 462 DPS all the way out to its locking range (75km) On top of this incredible DPS, it has a ridiculous 83k EHP and it can target paint smaller targets, totally raping frigs and other tackle and making sure the Fury missiles do full damage to all targets. Try to make any ships smaller than a BS come even close to these stats... you simply can't. I don't have the skills for a Drake, so I tried to counter with beam Harbs, arty Hurricanes, even rail Feroxes. Play with EFT, see how pathetic these setups are for yourself compared to the Drake. Sure the missiles take a few seconds to hit their target, but the stats are simply ridiculous...
Thoughts?
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LordElfa
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Posted - 2010.10.04 17:52:00 -
[2]
My thought is that I'm going to go build this right now.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.10.04 18:32:00 -
[3]
If you want to nerf Drakes then make them pink.
Oh, and your DPS numbers only apply for stationary targets. --
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. Black Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.10.04 18:51:00 -
[4]
Not only that but how does that fit keep people in place
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.04 20:39:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Whitehound If you want to nerf Drakes then make them pink.
Oh, and your DPS numbers only apply for stationary targets.
As is the case for any weapon in Eve.
Originally by: Korg Leaf Not only that but how does that fit keep people in place
It's a range setup dude... not much point having tackle at 50km+ is there? You'll either have Arazus pointing things for you, a support fleet of tackle on the enemy, or you're just taking pot shots at each other... I've been in all of the above situations.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.04 20:57:00 -
[6]
the irony. after all those years of people laughing on drakes and how useless they are in pvp.
anyway back to the topic: caldari always had been pretty good on damaging from range while other stuff tackles. and the drake isnt much different.
though while the other BCs have often problems with fitting a similar good buffer, they can usually get at least similar (theoretical) dps. and the volley e.g. from 720 canes can make pretty short work of things before logistics can safe people.
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Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.10.04 20:58:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Whitehound If you want to nerf Drakes then make them pink.
Oh, and your DPS numbers only apply for stationary targets.
As is the case for any weapon in Eve.
Originally by: Korg Leaf Not only that but how does that fit keep people in place
It's a range setup dude... not much point having tackle at 50km+ is there? You'll either have Arazus pointing things for you, a support fleet of tackle on the enemy, or you're just taking pot shots at each other... I've been in all of the above situations.
Just to clarify, You want the Drake nerfed because in a specialized gang / fleet with Recon support to dictate range and put points on your target, some possible Scimi's / and command bonuses running?
Seems like that's the description of a Caldari ships to me.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.04 21:04:00 -
[8]
Oh look, an EFT warrior.
All missileboats do more damage at long range than gunboats. Check out the stats of a cruise raven vs a sniper geddon or a cerb vs zealot.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.10.04 21:13:00 -
[9]
No
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive. |
Valarre
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Posted - 2010.10.04 21:27:00 -
[10]
How about instead of nerfing drakes we make the other battlecruisers better. For example the worthless bruitx, and ferox. Although they are still technically the tier 1 bc's. I don't know the myrmiddon is awesome, the hurricane is awesome, and so is the harbinger. Actually tbh you are full of crap, all the tier 2 bc's are pretty damned good. Drakes don't need a nerf.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.04 21:31:00 -
[11]
uhm ... also the Tier 1 BCs are pretty good when piloted and fitted properly. you might want to take a look on kil2's or garmon's or endless subversion's videos.
and tbh ... in LR BC fleets i would much rather sit in a ferox (resist bonus ftw) than in a brutix or harb. (if there is no drake on sale.)
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Valarre
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Posted - 2010.10.04 21:39:00 -
[12]
actually I would a take a harb over the ferox any day, if I had the laser skills up to a decent level.
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Dengen Krastinov
Amarr Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.10.04 21:51:00 -
[13]
false
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.04 22:45:00 -
[14]
Yes, I EFT quite a bit, but I came to think HML Drake's are OP because of in game encounters... I'm in Gallente militia, so we fight the Caldari militia.. ahem Drakes. Lately they all fit for range, and just stay out of our range. We try to counter with range BCs as well, but obviously we don't have as many Drake pilots. Like I said, TRY to make a range fit for any other BC. We still manage to fight them with smart warp-ins and such, but my point is that no other BC comes even REMOTELY close to the range capabilities of the Drake.
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Valarre
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Posted - 2010.10.04 22:57:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Aerilis Yes, I EFT quite a bit, but I came to think HML Drake's are OP because of in game encounters... I'm in Gallente militia, so we fight the Caldari militia.. ahem Drakes. Lately they all fit for range, and just stay out of our range. We try to counter with range BCs as well, but obviously we don't have as many Drake pilots. Like I said, TRY to make a range fit for any other BC. We still manage to fight them with smart warp-ins and such, but my point is that no other BC comes even REMOTELY close to the range capabilities of the Drake.
Tactics are the key. In reality you are just looking for a way to fight without tactics by trying to make the drake lame. Why not nut up and fight them with tactics? Maybe turn to other ships that may be more effective against them. Like a bunch of ecm ships. Perhaps climb into a bunch of blackbirds to counter them? I always thought it would be interesting to see like 10 blackbirds all ecm'd up to the gill go against any other slew of ships. What would be even more hilarious is what kind of damage would 30-50 of them do? 10 blackbirds should easily lock down 20 drakes permanently, but it might be hard breaking the tank, although 30 t2 heavy launchers could break a drake tank easily as long as all the blackbirds concentrated on a single target at a time. Add to the mix of a recon ship providing an adequate warp in point and tackle could be quite devastating. If you are among a group of guys with little skills a blackbird would be perfect.
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.10.04 23:11:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Misanthra on 04/10/2010 23:12:15 your fit is missing the damn near standard em and thermal rigs pvp rigs. Yes it has high ehp...it also has the crappy em hole famous on caldari ships with thermal coming in a close second. DCU and 2 invuls help but as a drake pilot lets just say you still don't like seeing these damage types come in.
You don't have sensor boost. Drakes lock slow as hell even with them and fleet boosted. Get some jammers in fleet, will be endless fun having drakes spend forever retargetting.
In fleet engagements chances are real small of finding shield reppers in numbers. Ding a drake and unless they took tactical shield manipulation to 5 at 75 percent shields (time sink most put off) shots start to get through and drakes are real squishy at armor and structure.
hobs are pve drones. Warriors can actually keep up to a inty pilot and make them work a bit to keep point while playing with your little friends.
basically you posted a pve fit here...ratting drakes die all the time. Have died in few tbh when being stupid or asleep on the belts.
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Seishi Maru
Organization for Nuclear Research
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Posted - 2010.10.05 00:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Aerilis Yes, I EFT quite a bit, but I came to think HML Drake's are OP because of in game encounters... I'm in Gallente militia, so we fight the Caldari militia.. ahem Drakes. Lately they all fit for range, and just stay out of our range. We try to counter with range BCs as well, but obviously we don't have as many Drake pilots. Like I said, TRY to make a range fit for any other BC. We still manage to fight them with smart warp-ins and such, but my point is that no other BC comes even REMOTELY close to the range capabilities of the Drake.
You letting them figth on their terms and complain they win? You need to force them into YOUR terms. Sensor dampen them, and land blasterthrons on top of them. Then you will be playing by your terms. Drakes usually are not exactly the best BC against a short Range battleship sicne they cannot even keep range of a gallente or minmatar battleship.
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Naomi Wildfire
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.10.05 00:24:00 -
[18]
if you think the Brutix/Ferox are bad, you seriously lack skill. I love the ferox.
"i'd take a Harbinger over a Ferox" Yeah, because comparing tier1 to tier2 is a good thing. I still can give you hell in my Ferox.
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.05 00:35:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Naomi Wildfire if you think the Brutix/Ferox are bad, you seriously lack skill. I love the ferox.
"i'd take a Harbinger over a Ferox" Yeah, because comparing tier1 to tier2 is a good thing. I still can give you hell in my Ferox.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6422765
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.10.05 01:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
You letting them figth on their terms and complain they win? You need to force them into YOUR terms. Sensor dampen them, and land blasterthrons on top of them. Then you will be playing by your terms. Drakes usually are not exactly the best BC against a short Range battleship sicne they cannot even keep range of a gallente or minmatar battleship.
This....one time, back in band camp, support fleet got a bad warp in. I mean really bad. So bad you could see the crew of the ship in the windows of the enemy ships laughing and giving us the finger as the sr fleet went to town. 3 shot kills on drakes. First basically shredded shields, 2nd killed the small remnant of shield and most of the armor, 3rd shot and it was over.
Okay, 4 shots...called warp in was in a mess of bubbles, found a quick way home at least lol. Didn't want those +3's anyway lol.
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Jaggati Khan
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Posted - 2010.10.05 03:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: darius mclever the irony. after all those years of people laughing on drakes and how useless they are in pvp.
anyway back to the topic: caldari always had been pretty good on damaging from range while other stuff tackles. and the drake isnt much different.
though while the other BCs have often problems with fitting a similar good buffer, they can usually get at least similar (theoretical) dps. and the volley e.g. from 720 canes can make pretty short work of things before logistics can safe people.
didnt think id say this but clever is absolutetly right, i never thought that people would ask for yet another drake nerf...
So drakes have good range, their also damn good up close - but you get too close to a harb or myrm and your likely to get chewed up, spat out and seriuosly trampled on, arty canes for insta alpha strike are also good - tbh if you want to combat that fleet simple use zealots and guardians - or start fitting defenders that might be amusing.. :p
The drake does have a bloody good tank but only when you dont fit mwd, point, web and tp - for fleet stuff caldari have generally always been good ships as the shield tanks (when not needing ewar) are bloody good, but they are slow and no as versatile as others (on a personal basis)
btw, youtube eveonline ironclad :p
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Valarre
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Posted - 2010.10.05 05:41:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Naomi Wildfire if you think the Brutix/Ferox are bad, you seriously lack skill. I love the ferox.
"i'd take a Harbinger over a Ferox" Yeah, because comparing tier1 to tier2 is a good thing. I still can give you hell in my Ferox.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6422765
This guy let you get in range of those blasters. Blasters will undeniably melt you away when in range. However if he kept you out of range the battle would have gone differently. How close was the fight?
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.10.05 06:27:00 -
[23]
Because of Drake?
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Sleipnyrr
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Posted - 2010.10.05 06:28:00 -
[24]
That fit is terrible m8, first off it needs a point, secondly if you want to control range your going to be need 1 or 2 nanos.
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Typhado3
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.05 09:12:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Typhado3 on 05/10/2010 09:17:12
Originally by: Aerilis no other BC comes even REMOTELY close to the range capabilities of the Drake.
I don't see a problem here.
Caldari are the range focused race, trying to outsnipe a caldari is like trying to outrun a minmatar or outbuffer tank an amarr or outgay a gallente (sorry I don't fly gallente so I got nfi on them).
The problem I see is when races don't have many strengths or are weak in their strengths (possibly gallente). Or when a race is actually strong in their supposed weakness, Amarr intercepters. ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker |
Space Pinata
Amarr Discount Napkin Industries
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Posted - 2010.10.05 09:43:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Space Pinata on 05/10/2010 09:45:22 Fury missiles are terrible at hitting small targets.
You're forgetting something important.
Missiles take a long time to hit.
If a target lives for a matter of minutes this might not be much of an issue. But in any fight lasting under a minute (and remember; this is per ship, not total.)
At max range, you're talking about 13 seconds before your first missiles hit.
At 70km, the Beam Harbinger only does 305 DPS, as compared to 462.
However; assuming they lock at the same time, the Harbinger has a 13 second head start.
By the time the drakes first volley hits, the Harbinger has already dealt 3965 damage.
At a DPS advantage of 157 damage/second, it then takes 25 seconds for the drake to catch up.
38 seconds in, both will have done about 11500. (11500 harb, 11550 drake).
60 seconds in: The harbinger will have done 18300 damage, the drake will have done 21714.
tl;dr for people who don't want to read math:
In a sniper fight, the Harbinger is at a DPS advantage for the first 38 seconds. At a full minute, the drake has managed to deal 15~% more damage than the harbinger.
So the Harbinger (even 300~ dps vs 450~) wins if your primaries go down fast, and the drake wins slightly in a slower battle, much more significantly if you spend several minutes shooting one target (this should never happen in a fleet big enough to actually use sniping tactics. Just saying.)
And at close range: A beam harbinger with navy multifreq's will deal 684 dps.
So at close range the harbinger wins by a large margin.
The only advantage drakes have over other battlecruisers is their battleship-worthy EHP. |
Jaggati Khan
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Posted - 2010.10.05 12:04:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Space Pinata The only advantage drakes have over other battlecruisers is their battleship-worthy EHP.
but they DO have extremely low resist to em/therm damage - even with a hardner or amp
if the drake does have higher em resists its likely that its still quite susceptible to kin/therm damage :)
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.10.05 13:39:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Whitehound If you want to nerf Drakes then make them pink.
Oh, and your DPS numbers only apply for stationary targets.
As is the case for any weapon in Eve.
No. Missile damage always gets a penalty with moving targets, and most of the targets you encounter are moving. The theoretical DPS numbers for missiles need to be higher in comparison to other weapons in order for you to compare them at all.
If you really factor in all possible variables (range, speed, expl. radius, expl. speed, tracking, optimal, falloff, signature, damage types, etc.) will you be comparing apples with oranges, and the peak DPS numbers become meaningless when taken out of their context (aka ship setups). In short, looking at theoretical DPS numbers is a waste of time.
Even worse, when you start talking of DPS while you are also talking of eHP are you going to create a artificial trade-off between the two without knowing what the best ratio between DPS and eHP is, or how much is sufficient for a task. You are then only going to ignore and sacrifice other factors, like not having a web on your Drake or receiving a penalty for your 2nd target painter (as somebody above already mentioned). --
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Natasha Hec
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2010.10.05 14:10:00 -
[29]
Drakes dont need a nerf, there you go question answered
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Naomi Wildfire
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.10.05 14:39:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Naomi Wildfire if you think the Brutix/Ferox are bad, you seriously lack skill. I love the ferox.
"i'd take a Harbinger over a Ferox" Yeah, because comparing tier1 to tier2 is a good thing. I still can give you hell in my Ferox.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6422765
still love this one =) http://kb.thelynennor.de/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15995
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.05 15:27:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Whitehound No. Missile damage always gets a penalty with moving targets.
No, that's turrets (unless transversal is exactly zero despite movement ofc).
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:03:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Whitehound on 05/10/2010 17:04:17
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Whitehound No. Missile damage always gets a penalty with moving targets.
No, that's turrets (unless transversal is exactly zero despite movement ofc).
No. Turrets can hit a moving target with peak DPS, or not. Missiles can never hit a moving target with peak DPS. --
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:46:00 -
[33]
No, as I said, that's the wrong way round. When I get home I'll explain why, unless you can figure it out in the meantime.
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:52:00 -
[34]
I'm confused.... your complaining that a drake is good at exactly the role it was designed to do? I would hope so... otherwise it'd be ****.
There are quite a few ways to effectively counter a drake fleet.
Quote: This setup does 561 DPS with drones (60km) and 462 DPS all the way out to its locking range (75km) On top of this incredible DPS, it has a ridiculous 83k EHP and it can target paint smaller targets, totally raping frigs and other tackle and making sure the Fury missiles do full damage to all targets.
Hurricane with all skills at 5 (which I assume is what you rated your one with) can put out 800dps with 52.3k EHP. It does have to be a practically zero to do that much damage but with this fit (that includes a scrambler) without the scram you can hit 64k EHP with less speed/sig radius problems than heavy missiles without mods. Also it can do 1.5km/s with it's MWD on and can run everything (MWD + scram + invuns) for 7 mins solid without problems.
The two are comparable. Other Tier 2 BCs have other advantages, myrm has massive dps when blaster fit or decent ranged power when rail fit as well as having a very nice drone bay, harby is basically the same as the 'cane but slower and with longer range. All the Tier 2 BCs have their niche. My only complaint about the drake would be that it's perhaps too good at the short - mid range fits.
BTW, if you are fighting people with the fits you've linked, bring a few ewar frigs with sensor damps and watch them cry as they crawl 30+kms to try and get in range again. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:54:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Space Pinata
Fury missiles are terrible at hitting small targets.
At 2 TPs per ship, you're lighting up frigates like they're carriers.
Originally by: Space Pinata
At max range, you're talking about 13 seconds before your first missiles hit.
You don't want to engage at max range, because there's chances that the range will change slightly and none of your missiles will hit. In actual engagements on TQ, I find the range is usually 50-60km
Originally by: Space Pinata
At 70km, the Beam Harbinger only does 305 DPS, as compared to 462. However; assuming they lock at the same time, the Harbinger has a 13 second head start. By the time the drakes first volley hits, the Harbinger has already dealt 3965 damage. At a DPS advantage of 157 damage/second, it then takes 25 seconds for the drake to catch up. 38 seconds in, both will have done about 11500. (11500 harb, 11550 drake). 60 seconds in: The harbinger will have done 18300 damage, the drake will have done 21714. tl;dr for people who don't want to read math:
In a sniper fight, the Harbinger is at a DPS advantage for the first 38 seconds. At a full minute, the drake has managed to deal 15~% more damage than the harbinger.
So the Harbinger (even 300~ dps vs 450~) wins if your primaries go down fast, and the drake wins slightly in a slower battle, much more significantly if you spend several minutes shooting one target (this should never happen in a fleet big enough to actually use sniping tactics. Just saying.)
Check out how much EHP your Harb setup has. Drakes can do less DPS and win if they have 2x your EHP. A 10 second delay in damage application is a detriment, yes, but smart FCing can offset most of this (switching targets when your primary is in structure).
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. Black Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:21:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Space Pinata
Fury missiles are terrible at hitting small targets.
At 2 TPs per ship, you're lighting up frigates like they're carriers.
Originally by: Space Pinata
At max range, you're talking about 13 seconds before your first missiles hit.
You don't want to engage at max range, because there's chances that the range will change slightly and none of your missiles will hit. In actual engagements on TQ, I find the range is usually 50-60km
Originally by: Space Pinata
At 70km, the Beam Harbinger only does 305 DPS, as compared to 462. However; assuming they lock at the same time, the Harbinger has a 13 second head start. By the time the drakes first volley hits, the Harbinger has already dealt 3965 damage. At a DPS advantage of 157 damage/second, it then takes 25 seconds for the drake to catch up. 38 seconds in, both will have done about 11500. (11500 harb, 11550 drake). 60 seconds in: The harbinger will have done 18300 damage, the drake will have done 21714. tl;dr for people who don't want to read math:
In a sniper fight, the Harbinger is at a DPS advantage for the first 38 seconds. At a full minute, the drake has managed to deal 15~% more damage than the harbinger.
So the Harbinger (even 300~ dps vs 450~) wins if your primaries go down fast, and the drake wins slightly in a slower battle, much more significantly if you spend several minutes shooting one target (this should never happen in a fleet big enough to actually use sniping tactics. Just saying.)
Check out how much EHP your Harb setup has. Drakes can do less DPS and win if they have 2x your EHP. A 10 second delay in damage application is a detriment, yes, but smart FCing can offset most of this (switching targets when your primary is in structure).
In a proper sized bc sniper gang the harbs win out due to killing the targets quickly, its why zealots are considered better snipers than cerberus, the instant damage means alot in sniper gangs
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:26:00 -
[37]
Remote sensor dampeners.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:29:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Gypsio III No, as I said, that's the wrong way round. When I get home I'll explain why, unless you can figure it out in the meantime.
No. If you do not already understand when I write that you begin to compare apples with oranges then more factors you put into a comparison then there is no hope that you will understand anything that I write. Sorry. --
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.05 19:06:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Gypsio III No, as I said, that's the wrong way round. When I get home I'll explain why, unless you can figure it out in the meantime.
No. If you do not already understand when I write that you begin to compare apples with oranges then more factors you put into a comparison then there is no hope that you will understand anything that I write. Sorry.
Sigh.
A missile will do full damage if the target that it hits is A) travelling slower than its explosion velocity, and B) has a sig larger than its explosion radius. It will also do full damage to a target travelling faster than its explosion velocity if the target's sig is proportionally greater than its explosion radius. These conditions are fairly straightforward to meet.
A turret will do full damage if transversal is zero and tracking pays no part. Since transversal is almost never exactly zero, this condition is extremely hard to meet and therefore "full" damage is very hard to achieve, although obviously as transversal falls close to zero then damage will become very close to "full".
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.05 19:13:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Gypsio III A turret will do full damage if transversal is zero and tracking pays no part. Since transversal is almost never exactly zero, this condition is extremely hard to meet and therefore "full" damage is very hard to achieve, although obviously as transversal falls close to zero then damage will become very close to "full".
No. As far as I know is the damage amount of turrets completely random and DPS calculations merely represent the average amount of it. The damage amount does do not depend on the transversal speed of the target. The transversal speed only determines if the target is hit or missed. --
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ShahFluffers
Gallente Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2010.10.05 19:42:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: Gypsio III A turret will do full damage if transversal is zero and tracking pays no part. Since transversal is almost never exactly zero, this condition is extremely hard to meet and therefore "full" damage is very hard to achieve, although obviously as transversal falls close to zero then damage will become very close to "full".
No. As far as I know is the damage amount of turrets completely random and DPS calculations merely represent the average amount of it. The damage amount does do not depend on the transversal speed of the target. The transversal speed only determines if the target is hit or missed.
Incorrect. Transversal is taken into account when dealing damage AS WELL as hitting or missing. That's WHY the DPS of turrets is so "random."
I know Liang has the actual arithmetic for calculating the DPS of turrets and launchers. Wait until he (she?) gets here. _______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Macs Mayhem
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Posted - 2010.10.05 20:03:00 -
[42]
Originally by: darius mclever the irony. after all those years of people laughing on drakes and how useless they are in pvp.
this
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.05 20:19:00 -
[43]
Originally by: ShahFluffers Incorrect. Transversal is taken into account when dealing damage AS WELL as hitting or missing. That's WHY the DPS of turrets is so "random."
I know Liang has the actual arithmetic for calculating the DPS of turrets and launchers. Wait until he (she?) gets here.
According to this is it completely random. --
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.05 20:46:00 -
[44]
I don't know much about missile DPS, but I've seen drakes hit me for the EXACT same damage over and over again regardless of my maneuvering/whether I have MWD on or off, so it bears the assumption that missiles have a very low threshold at which they plateu, that is it doesn't take much for them to do full DPS on a target.
Turret DPS I do know backwards and forwards, don't want to get into it now but it is always random yes but it has a great deal to do with transversal too.
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Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.10.08 21:26:00 -
[45]
There are sooo many factors which contribute to how good a ship is. At the end of the day the closest you can get to determine how good a ship is would be to look at how many people pvp with the ship. So I go and check the eve-kill killboard (pulls from thousands of KBs) and I was surprised at how the Drake just dominates the the other ships in kills. I remember when the falcon was on top (then nerfed) and vaga was on top (then nerfed), but neither came ever came even close to the existing drake numbers.
Rank / Ship / Kills 1 Drake 196690 2 Hurricane 77399 3 Zealot 73885 4 Megathron 35232 5 Vagabond 34021 6 Harbinger 29020 7 Tempest 28938 8 Armageddon 23182 9 Apocalypse 22094 10 Muninn 21658
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Saelie
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Posted - 2010.10.08 23:32:00 -
[46]
I'd be curious how many Drakes were LOST as well compared to other ships. Given that the Drake is the most common ship in EVE (Next to the Hulk, sometimes) it makes sense that it would get the most kills. It also probably has the most losses, as well.
It's additionally important to remember that being on the killmail doesn't mean a whole lot. Drakes tend to get on lots of killmails by virtue of the fact that they tend to tank better than they deal damage - This means they're low priority for a good FC. The other ships up there are on fewer kills because they die first, which means they're on fewer kills, while the Drake is free to sit there and plug away and get on every kill in an engagement before it dies.
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Joe Phoenix
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Posted - 2010.10.09 01:43:00 -
[47]
LEAVE THE CALDARI ALONE!
Strong shields and missiles that can pick you off at double your max range.
THIS IS WHAT WE DO!
POWER TO THE CALDARI!
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.09 09:25:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Solid Star There are sooo many factors which contribute to how good a ship is. At the end of the day the closest you can get to determine how good a ship is would be to look at how many people pvp with the ship. So I go and check the eve-kill killboard (pulls from thousands of KBs) and I was surprised at how the Drake just dominates the the other ships in kills. I remember when the falcon was on top (then nerfed) and vaga was on top (then nerfed), but neither came ever came even close to the existing drake numbers.
Rank / Ship / Kills 1 Drake 196690 2 Hurricane 77399 3 Zealot 73885 4 Megathron 35232 5 Vagabond 34021 6 Harbinger 29020 7 Tempest 28938 8 Armageddon 23182 9 Apocalypse 22094 10 Muninn 21658
These numbers also include carebears getting ganked. For ships like the Muninn that's a pretty small number, but for the Drake it's a considerably greater contribution to those numbers...
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darius mefrel
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Posted - 2010.10.09 12:51:00 -
[49]
Edited by: darius mefrel on 09/10/2010 12:55:51
Originally by: Aerilis Yes, I EFT quite a bit, but I came to think HML Drake's are OP because of in game encounters... I'm in Gallente militia, so we fight the Caldari militia.. ahem Drakes. Lately they all fit for range, and just stay out of our range. We try to counter with range BCs as well, but obviously we don't have as many Drake pilots. Like I said, TRY to make a range fit for any other BC. We still manage to fight them with smart warp-ins and such, but my point is that no other BC comes even REMOTELY close to the range capabilities of the Drake.
Just a question of the right Tactics, the Caldari use their Longrange-potential, why aren't the Gallente use their Potential? I mean, they warp in at Longrange and you're unable to get into your range? then use Sensor Dampeners or ECM. They are to far away and got to much Drakes? them warp in an cloaked Recon, get it in range and make an Warp-In for your Brutixes, good fitted attack-Brutixes with T2-Setup's are able to deliver about 880 DPS (980 overheat)with Dualwebb and with some fleet-fitted Oneiros' with good Logistic-Pilots in the Attack-squad, you crush minimum 4-5 Drakes per attack with good target-calling and good balancing of the Points/Webbs.
@ the Situation wich you've described: It's your fault. They dictated the Range and you try to come along on the same Range, instead of changing Tactics. Never fight to the Enemie's Condition! Force them to Fight to your Conditions!
TL:DR In easy Words: If they use Tactics, be creative and simply counter them, find a good FC, and some Pilots with routine, and the Drakes won't be a problem. btw. before the Drake's get nerved, ccp better take's a look at the Brutix, their DPS, their potential is "OP" in the hands of good Pilots (and it's cheap!)
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Zekuloth
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Posted - 2010.10.09 14:24:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Solid Star There are sooo many factors which contribute to how good a ship is. At the end of the day the closest you can get to determine how good a ship is would be to look at how many people pvp with the ship. So I go and check the eve-kill killboard (pulls from thousands of KBs) and I was surprised at how the Drake just dominates the the other ships in kills. I remember when the falcon was on top (then nerfed) and vaga was on top (then nerfed), but neither came ever came even close to the existing drake numbers.
Rank / Ship / Kills 1 Drake 196690 2 Hurricane 77399 3 Zealot 73885 4 Megathron 35232 5 Vagabond 34021 6 Harbinger 29020 7 Tempest 28938 8 Armageddon 23182 9 Apocalypse 22094 10 Muninn 21658
How many people pvp with a ship doesnt really tell you how good at pvp said ship is. that only shows that the Drake is the only decent ship that Caldari have, buff the rest of the Caldari ships for pvp thanks.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.10.09 14:56:00 -
[51]
Originally by: darius mefrel Just a question of the right Tactics, the Caldari use their Longrange-potential, why aren't the Gallente use their Potential? I mean, they warp in at Longrange and you're unable to get into your range? then use Sensor Dampeners or ECM. They are to far away and got to much Drakes? them warp in an cloaked Recon, get it in range and make an Warp-In for your Brutixes, good fitted attack-Brutixes with T2-Setup's are able to deliver about 880 DPS (980 overheat)with Dualwebb and with some fleet-fitted Oneiros' with good Logistic-Pilots in the Attack-squad, you crush minimum 4-5 Drakes per attack with good target-calling and good balancing of the Points/Webbs.
This is what people are complaining about! The Drake does not need any tactics. It is a no-brainer. --
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darius mefrel
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Posted - 2010.10.09 15:56:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Whitehound
Originally by: darius mefrel Just a question of the right Tactics, the Caldari use their Longrange-potential, why aren't the Gallente use their Potential? I mean, they warp in at Longrange and you're unable to get into your range? then use Sensor Dampeners or ECM. They are to far away and got to much Drakes? them warp in an cloaked Recon, get it in range and make an Warp-In for your Brutixes, good fitted attack-Brutixes with T2-Setup's are able to deliver about 880 DPS (980 overheat)with Dualwebb and with some fleet-fitted Oneiros' with good Logistic-Pilots in the Attack-squad, you crush minimum 4-5 Drakes per attack with good target-calling and good balancing of the Points/Webbs.
This is what people are complaining about! The Drake does not need any tactics. It is a no-brainer.
Staying out of the Enemy range is a tactic, Dictating the Range is a tactic. Same tactic why Bs-Gangs attack POSes at +-150km. Sure the Drake is a F1-F7-Fire-and-forget-Ship, but that fit to the most Ships wich uses Missiles. But if they don't got tactics, how are they able to kill stuff? Do they got the secret-CCP->50km-Warp-Scrambler? nope. Do they Insta-pop Stuff like a bunch of Zealot's? nope. Are those Caldari Militia-Pilot's the only one wich are able to fit and Fly these Drake's? nope. For myself i Prefer trying to engage a 15-man-Drake-Fleet than a 8-man-Cruiser-Gang including 4 Falcons.
btw I don't see any Problem with that "no-brainer"-thing. It's always good if the Enemy don't get experience and can't learn from their own Tactics, better for the other side, if their Enemie's don't use their Brain. Especially if they set on a Setup of Ships wich can be beaten with a little bit of Tactics, Leadership and Preperation.
just my two ISK to that.
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Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.10.09 20:04:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Zekuloth
Originally by: Solid Star There are sooo many factors which contribute to how good a ship is. At the end of the day the closest you can get to determine how good a ship is would be to look at how many people pvp with the ship. So I go and check the eve-kill killboard (pulls from thousands of KBs) and I was surprised at how the Drake just dominates the the other ships in kills. I remember when the falcon was on top (then nerfed) and vaga was on top (then nerfed), but neither came ever came even close to the existing drake numbers.
Rank / Ship / Kills 1 Drake 196690 2 Hurricane 77399 3 Zealot 73885 4 Megathron 35232 5 Vagabond 34021 6 Harbinger 29020 7 Tempest 28938 8 Armageddon 23182 9 Apocalypse 22094 10 Muninn 21658
How many people pvp with a ship doesnt really tell you how good at pvp said ship is. that only shows that the Drake is the only decent ship that Caldari have, buff the rest of the Caldari ships for pvp thanks.
Not true as most people that PVP cross train at least one other race ships. That also does not explain all the Drake gangs you see. I don't think the FC is looking for only Caldari race pilots for the drake gang.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.09 23:44:00 -
[54]
Oooook, so it's fine for Minmatar to have the best guns all round, but god forbid Caldari should have debatably (bolded for emphasis) one of the best t1 battlecruisers? Riiiiight. Cry the **** more please. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.10.10 00:46:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Oooook, so it's fine for Minmatar to have the best guns all round, but god forbid Caldari should have debatably (bolded for emphasis) one of the best t1 battlecruisers? Riiiiight. Cry the **** more please.
Nah, I am not saying to nerf the Drake. That would actually hurt me as I fly in drake gangs. And Caldari are limited in their PVP options so some could argue you balances out. What I don't like is people pretending it is not a good pvp boat because they fear CCP will nerf it.
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Luthair StoneDog
Gallente Wormhole XXXtreme
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Posted - 2010.10.10 03:23:00 -
[56]
STEP 1. Hit f1-7 STEP 2. Go have a poo. STEP 3. Come back and see that Drake has done PvP for you.
Your input. Not required.
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EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2010.10.10 04:24:00 -
[57]
I would counter with a Deimos or other Short Range high speed cruiser/battle cruiser. CCRES is recruiting pilots who want to live in WSpace/Wormholes. Fill out an application here! |
Tamahra
Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch
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Posted - 2010.10.10 06:33:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Aerilis So we all know how everyone says Drakes are OP
i like how the op already disqualifies himself in the first sentence, with a clueless statement, out of thin air
so i stopped reading there
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Czert ElPrezidente
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.14 16:19:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Oh look, an EFT warrior.
All missileboats do more damage at long range than gunboats. Check out the stats of a cruise raven vs a sniper geddon or a cerb vs zealot.
I think is is needed, because all guns have insta damage and missiles have delayed damage, and I dont talk about wastingf ammo if target is destroyed while missiles on they way or your missiles can be shoot down by anti-missiles. ------------------------------------------------
Signature removed not EVE related - Adida |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2010.10.14 17:55:00 -
[60]
Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced. When you get 50+ of them all buffer tanking and alpha striking people at upto ~85km as the current FOTM strategy is out there, this underpins their usefulness (max buffer for sig/speed tank and max range with same damage) so this is a scenario specific issue to large fleet warfare. There are counter strategies to this, but drakes+scimitars is an easier to coordinate. The drakes tank or specifically its passive tank does concern us where both can be equally affected in a similar way. Food for thought anyway, we rarely intervene with emergent strategies and tactics as a counter usually matures after some time but will keep an eye on this thread to see what the rest of you think.
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Natasha Hec
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2010.10.14 18:54:00 -
[61]
The drake+scimitar gangs aren't invincible same as the ab armour hacs aren't invincible. Drakes are fine, they are arguably the best BC but they are very limited in there usefulness to a lot of the common fleet types out there. Stop whining.
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Sakura Shiro
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Posted - 2010.10.15 00:04:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Sakura Shiro on 15/10/2010 00:12:43
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Oooook, so it's fine for Minmatar to have the best guns all round, but god forbid Caldari should have debatably (bolded for emphasis) one of the best t1 battlecruisers? Riiiiight. Cry the **** more please.
this lol....when I left null sec a few months ago (little eve break, now just running missions here and there as time allows, no real time to devote to fun stuff) me flying a drake well since caldari and $5 would get me a up of coffee. "Can you fly something else besides drake?" was asked many a time as I did my long grind to t2 rails for snipe rokh. Crow or navy crapacal to ghetto HAC roams was the reply usually lol...Fotm was, as it usually has been, armor and guns. Hell my corp was highly recommmending x-train to be more useful, minny often mentioned. Took a a few years but someone realized ohh crap, failadari not so bad after all. Deal with it.
CCP gave us drake....I call it a consolation prize for the abundance of crap ships we have. Faildari pilots have been dealing with "you need to cross train out of your fail race" for years. Now...you come to us. Don't worry, you have lots of ships you can say still suck (flycatcher for example, will probably always be good for the response "anyone got a real dictor" in comms lol).
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CorsairV
Gallente GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.10.15 00:49:00 -
[63]
I agree with the guy that said to buff the other battlecruisers. However, you might want to speedbuff the HACs to keep the drake from overshadowing the cerberus.
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Turix
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.10.15 01:00:00 -
[64]
As per Eve-Kill Top 20:
Rank Ships Kills 1 Drake 219593 2 Hurricane 76475 3 Zealot 54785 4 Vagabond 31903 5 Megathron 29854 6 Harbinger 27691 7 Tempest 26191 8 Abaddon 22355 9 Dramiel 21279 10 Sabre 20926 11 Armageddon 20818 12 Hound 18974 13 Rapier 18226 14 Scimitar 18010 15 Muninn 17928 16 Manticore 17365 17 Apocalypse 16341 18 Cynabal 12365 19 Loki 10948 20 Myrmidon 10796
Yeah, FOTM alright :x __________________________
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Sakura Shiro
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Posted - 2010.10.15 01:59:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Turix As per Eve-Kill Top 20:
Rank Ships Kills 1 Drake 219593 2 Hurricane 76475 3 Zealot 54785 4 Vagabond 31903 5 Megathron 29854 6 Harbinger 27691 7 Tempest 26191 8 Abaddon 22355 9 Dramiel 21279 10 Sabre 20926 11 Armageddon 20818 12 Hound 18974 13 Rapier 18226 14 Scimitar 18010 15 Muninn 17928 16 Manticore 17365 17 Apocalypse 16341 18 Cynabal 12365 19 Loki 10948 20 Myrmidon 10796
Yeah, FOTM alright :x
Lots of minny ships in that list....amarr has a good showing as well.
Also remember drake if run in the right fleets picks up easy kills. Its support....kills support ships. I tried to limit my KM ho'ing personally and kill what I was supposed to. If enemy fleet went t1 cruiser trash heavy....padded kills but didn't do **** for isk killed totals :(.
Also remember there is like 3 caldari ships worth flying in fleets. Drake, rokh and falcon. As the minny lists shows...duct tape gives some options. Spreads out the kills. Same with amarr. Caldari pilot...sees caps>bs>else annd bs' are well covered and fc says some support be nice, no brainer to take out the drake vice the rokh (people don't like seeing the rokn on ops anyway...not like it will be missed lol).
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helmut cheddar
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Posted - 2010.10.15 06:51:00 -
[66]
Drakes are fine as they are, arty canes are pretty FOTM too for gang warfare, neither of them need a nerf IMHO. Didn't everyone used to moan that drakes were crap, don't some idiots (in the buff drake missile bonus thread) still try to claim drakes are PVE ships ? This is just a fad and a counter will emerge, mebbe try coming up with one urself instead of asking CCP to do it, it's not like drakes are dramiels, now thery really DO need a nerf
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wizard87
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Posted - 2010.10.15 11:13:00 -
[67]
Completely overpowered for a ship that costs under 50 mil fitted.
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Severian Sylpher
Centre Of Attention Middle of Nowhere
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Posted - 2010.10.15 11:22:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Severian Sylpher on 15/10/2010 11:25:03 top 20 kill list, add those numbers up by race and take a look
caldari - 236958 (2 ships) minmatar - 210705 (7 ships) amarr - 163886 (7 ships) gallente - 40650 (2 ships) faction - 33644 (2 ships)
just goes to show that yeah caldari only have 1 real decent ship and its the current fotm so what. minmatar have just as many kills just spread over multiple ships as someone mentioned earlier. really the only group that seems underrepresented at the moment is gallente. with just a few more kills than faction ships. |
Dummy Jumper
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Posted - 2010.10.15 12:29:00 -
[69]
In my opinion Drake is greatly overpowered. And their is a simple reason for it - It have godly tank, great weapon ranges, ok dps and even can fit full tackle if needed without significant problems. Other ships have to make serious sacrafices to reach SOME of those traits but Drake got all of them for "free".
Originally by: helmut cheddar arty canes are pretty FOTM too for gang warfare, neither of them need a nerf IMHO.
I agree that canes are good, they are even very good but this? ARTY cane as FOTM? Hurricane have to sacrifice everything to mount arty.
Originally by: Severian Sylpher
just goes to show that yeah caldari only have 1 real decent ship and its the current fotm so what.
Caldari have one greatly overpowered ship - Drake of course - and several ok pvp ships (Manticore, Rook, Falcon for example), most of their kills are in drakes due to overpowered FOTM status of it. I don't want to say that everything is great in Caldari line-up they are lacking in HACs department etc but you exaggerate their problems.
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helmut cheddar
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Posted - 2010.10.15 15:10:00 -
[70]
Edited by: helmut cheddar on 15/10/2010 15:13:36 makes me laugh that a ship that has not changed in god knows how long barring a NERF to it's ammo and that everyone used to say was good for nothing except PVE is all of a sudden "OMG TOTALLY OP !!!" because people have figured out a use for it. A counter will just as quickly emerge and u'll all be *****ing about how useless it is again
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Roosterton
Internet Spaceship Raiders
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Posted - 2010.10.15 15:12:00 -
[71]
Don't nerf Drakes. They are the only battlecruisers which can effectively swat nano***s with heavy missiles; Other battlecruisers will be utterly outmatched by a Cynabal.
Nerf Angel ships before you nerf (if you nerf) Drakes. -------- Enemy corps raided into disbandment: Three.
Originally by: Tarminic
OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?! |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.15 15:22:00 -
[72]
Originally by: helmut cheddar Edited by: helmut cheddar on 15/10/2010 15:13:36 makes me laugh that a ship that has not changed in god knows how long barring a NERF to it's ammo and that everyone used to say was good for nothing except PVE is all of a sudden "OMG TOTALLY OP !!!" because people have figured out a use for it. A counter will just as quickly emerge and u'll all be *****ing about how useless it is again
the irony is ... the got a bit FOTM, because they are a quite effective counter to AB armor hacs. :) and they can be beaten so easily. people just need to put some brain into it.
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium.
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Posted - 2010.10.15 17:06:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 15/10/2010 17:08:35 Lets think about the Drake's merits for a few moments.
- The drake is inexpensive and has relatively low skill requirements
- The Drake uses missiles, which gives it some guaranteed level of DPS against any target in range
- Passive shield tanks and Missiles give the Drake near-immunity to capacitor warfare
- The Drake slaughters speed ships
- The drake does not have to compromise between tank and DPS
The Drake's assets are the embodiment of risk aversion. It does not compromise and it does not suffer weakness. The massive hitpoint buffer and modest DPS lowers the Drake's battlefield target priority substantially, and all the while, the ship can comfortably do what it does best; hit hard, and soak up damage like a sponge. I can think of no ship that embodies what's wrong with eve more than this ship. The Drake's only time of weakness is when the numbers game starts to prioritize alpha strike, and the alpha strikers have nothing better to hit.
So how do we fix the drake? The answer lies not in hurting the drake's DPS, but in breaking the ship's ability to fit both tank and damage output.
I propose reducing the Drake's CPU output by 25 points, and the grid by 75 points. This will bring the Drake in line with the rest of the ships in this game by forcing pilots to make a choice: do you want to optimize for DPS, or do you want to optimize defense? You should not have the CPU and or grid to do both without compromise.
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Tub Chil
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Posted - 2010.10.15 18:05:00 -
[74]
fail thread the only t1 caldari ship that is better than competitors is that too much?
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Jita mcheck
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Posted - 2010.10.15 19:27:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Jita mcheck on 15/10/2010 19:31:53 Problem is nto only drakes but the nice bonus of shields and missle systems.
Heavy Missiles out range nearly every other long rang weapon system and do full dmg out to that range. Railguns are less popular because missiles are better.
Heavy missile range is a huge issue. There is nto enough of a downfall to using missiles currently. They are not as slow as the BS sized weapons and the travel time is not a huge negative factor. I believe missiles need a reductionin range and a decrease in speed. this nerf would affect the two most prominent ships..the drake and the tengue. Both ships are able to outperform other ships of the same class at specialized roles while also being a jack of all trades.(build me a better sniping SC with RR, there is also a reason drake armies are so common).
Secondly the down side of shields is not being noticable in it's effect. the bigger the shield the big the sig radius. this is by far a lesser penalty than being slower and less manoverable. Armor tanks fitting a battle ship sized plate can expect a signifigant impact to thier ship. Conversly a large shield extender does very little to negativly affect a drake. I would like to se the down side of shields be more noticible. With passive regen and no real down side shield tanking is becomeing very very common and armour gangs can't keep up and offer no benifit comparativly.
These changes would bring the drake into a more reasonable line.
PS buff hybrids
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.15 22:03:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Jita mcheck Problem is nto only drakes but the nice bonus of shields and missle systems.
Heavy Missiles out range nearly every other long rang weapon system and do full dmg out to that range. Railguns are less popular because missiles are better.
Heavy missile range is a huge issue. There is nto enough of a downfall to using missiles currently.
You totally missed post number 26?
Quote: They are not as slow as the BS sized weapons and the travel time is not a huge negative factor.
The irony ... standard missiles, heavy missiles and cruise missiles have the same missile speed. they only differ in flight time. that means all have the same travel time until they hit a target. and on a full range fight, you will waste lots of missiles, because the target dies before they hit.
Quote: I believe missiles need a reductionin range and a decrease in speed. this nerf would affect the two most prominent ships..the drake and the tengue. Both ships are able to outperform other ships of the same class at specialized roles while also being a jack of all trades.(build me a better sniping SC with RR, there is also a reason drake armies are so common).
been a long time since I read so much crap in one paragraph.
Quote: Secondly the down side of shields is not being noticable in it's effect. the bigger the shield the big the sig radius. this is by far a lesser penalty than being slower and less manoverable. Armor tanks fitting a battle ship sized plate can expect a signifigant impact to thier ship. Conversly a large shield extender does very little to negativly affect a drake. I would like to se the down side of shields be more noticible. With passive regen and no real down side shield tanking is becomeing very very common and armour gangs can't keep up and offer no benifit comparativly.
a drake with extender rigs and 1 LSE has about 378m sig radius. that means even BS sized weapons hit for almost full dmg. a mwding drake gets hit for full dmg even by capital sized weapons. if you think that isnt a big difference compared to e.g. 240m sigradius of an armor tanked hurricane.
And funnily ... a shield tanked drake (1038) isnt much faster than a fully trimarked hurricane (1025) and the harb/brutix are just about 140m/s slower. shield tanked all other BCs out run the drake heavily.
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Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
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Posted - 2010.10.15 22:48:00 -
[77]
I think the problem with the drake lies in the versatility in range that heavy missiles give, taking into effect flight time their DPS fairly similar to long range medium guns. Unlike long range guns though the heavy missiles damage does not decrease as range decreases meaning that a missile fleet is the only fleet the can fight at which ever range is detrimental to their opponent. Combined with the buffer of a drake which is truly impressive even considering its em hole when compared with other sniper BC's it makes the drake incredibly versatile. And in a fleet of drakes a large portion of them do not have to be carrying target painters but can carry sensor dampeners or tracking disruptors allowing them to put a large amount of ewar on any enemy fleet.
When combined with scimitars and recon cruisers the drake is probably overpowered, but one on one against other BC's the drake is fairly well balanced. Unfortunately this means the drake will probably continue its rise as the preferred fleet BC.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2010.10.15 23:37:00 -
[78]
There is nothing wrong with drakes tbh.
Yes they are currently pretty popular, but that in itself is not a reason to nerf something. As we've seen over the past couple of years, combat has moved to favouring medium range and HP tanks. This has been for numerous reasons (Scorch L, AC fall off boost etc) but one of the less observed reasons is because it helps to prevent mistakes. The guys can all huddle up and just have to shoot their primaries, and prevents dictor pilots from bubbling your own fleet along with the bad guys.
The drake does this kinda combat really well, and also is very newbie friendly. Loads of people can fly drakes, and even without a full t2 fit its effective, unlike as it used to be where if you couldn't field a full t2 sniper bs, you weren't coming. That means that alliances can get every single possible pilot on the field in a DPS ship and dominating the numbers game.
It won't last too much longer. Soon enough there will be counters to the drake fleet. For now its a great fleet, for the reasons I've outlined. It should have its day in the sun, and in a years times we won't even remember.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.16 00:13:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Turix As per Eve-Kill Top 20:
Rank Ships Kills 1 Drake 219593 2 Hurricane 76475 3 Zealot 54785 4 Vagabond 31903 5 Megathron 29854 6 Harbinger 27691 7 Tempest 26191 8 Abaddon 22355 9 Dramiel 21279 10 Sabre 20926 11 Armageddon 20818 12 Hound 18974 13 Rapier 18226 14 Scimitar 18010 15 Muninn 17928 16 Manticore 17365 17 Apocalypse 16341 18 Cynabal 12365 19 Loki 10948 20 Myrmidon 10796
Yeah, FOTM alright :x
2 Caldari ships... 1 on top of the list, the other near the bottom
The only thing this list shows is how FUBAR for PVP Caldari ships are that one is chosen above all others.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.16 00:46:00 -
[80]
Quote: 2 Caldari ships... 1 on top of the list, the other near the bottom
And it's worth mentioning that ship is a stealth bomber, a ship class where the racial variations are miniscule to non existant. It could just as easily have been the hound there, so it's worth discounting that one.
Having said that, those statistics are flawed in a significant way: namely the fact they don't take the context of those kills into account. Think about it, how many carebears have you seen bringing their PVE Drakes out to PVP with? Sure, there are a whole lot of Drakes on killmails, but if you were to filter out the number which contributed next to nothing to the fight, or who had 0 damage due to flight time, that number would shrink significantly.
People who think the Drake needs a nerf need to stfu. I repeat: why is it ok for Minmatar to have hands down the best guns in the game, but not for Caldari to have debatably the best BC?
Do we need to nerf the Ishkur/Jaguar for being the best AFs? Do we need to nerf the Damnation for being the best armour command ship?
If you really think something is wrong with the Drake, you may want to take a look at the other cases where one race has a very clear advantage over the rest and add those to the nerf list as well.
I'll also repeat this: cry the **** more. _________________________________
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Mr LaForge
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Posted - 2010.10.16 02:04:00 -
[81]
Not supported. Caldari need one ship that is good.
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Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
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Posted - 2010.10.16 05:00:00 -
[82]
Caldari need more than one ship that is good not one ship that is the be all to end all. The drake was worthless in the days of nano as missiles couldn't even touch their intended targets but those days are gone. And missiles are the only weapon without an effective specific counter, they can even use fof missiles to reduce the effect of ECM and damps which would completely shutdown a turret ship in the same situation. While defender missiles and smartbombs work they take tremendous skill to use and are largely ineffective in stopping missiles.
With the removal of speeds capable of out running missiles and without some unique way to counter missiles that is actually as effective as tracking disruption is on turrets, the drake will continue to excel. Unfortunately if measure are taken to correct this with missiles on the drake, it will hurt ships. In general Caldari ships need a revamp, that would allow changes to be made to missiles without ruining them.
Autocannons are currently messed up because of the fact the different tiers of ammunition do not modify fall-off and the guns were given enough fall-off to make up range on the super powered scorch crystals. This of coarse broke blasters and gave AC's a crippling edge over pulse laser at shorter range.
Artillery was a change that did little to alter its balance with the other weapons.
Why I say this because people seem to fail to look at the whole picture of balance, they say boo my ship sucks or that one is overpowered. Often those people are right but their reasoning is wrong, because they are only looking at things from one side. For PvP the caldari are weak only having a handful of specialist ships that really excel at their very specific role ecm. They also have the versatile and probably somewhat overpowered drake. Most of the caldari none specialist ships are ho-hum and a few are quite poor.
Gallente are probably currently the second weakest with but they the ships are in general solid with a few weak ones such as the deimos and other blaster boats, but a fix to blaster will solve most of those problems.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.16 05:17:00 -
[83]
Edited by: darius mclever on 16/10/2010 05:18:59 kalia: you are aware that explosion velocity of all missiles got reduced during the speed nerf? and explosion velocity is what matters for the dmg taken. i would even call it a bug that you could outrun missile speed in the past.
while you cant outrun the missile speed easily anymore, you can still negate tons of dmg because of the explosion velocity. and that is pretty balanced to turret boats.
and it is funny how many people ignore post 26 in the discussion. :)
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Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
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Posted - 2010.10.16 06:47:00 -
[84]
I understand explosion velocity, and also understand tracking and in that sense missiles and turrets are surprisingly well balanced especially since the missiles still hit for damage even if it becomes minuscule where a turret once a certain traversal is reached ceases to damage at all. That is balanced. And yes a missile ship also has the advantage of being able to orbit and opponent at any transversal velocity it likes without losing DPS. Missiles are also useful from 0m to maximium range. Their versatility is their balance.
What is not balanced is a turret ship can have its turrets disrupted so they can no longer hit the target, or its sensors damped so it doesn't have the targeting range to get a lock, or it can be jammed. Each of these circumstances means the turret ship is only dealing damage with its drones.
Missiles on the other hand cannot have their tracking disrupted, they can fire FoF missiles when they are jammed and damped and while this may not seem like much even picking off the enemies drones more than a turret ship can do under similar circumstances. Yes there is a specific counter to missiles the defender missile but sadly they remain ineffective as they are difficult to time and provide poor results on top of that. Smartbombs which again can counter missiles are also difficult to time and also dangerous to use in a fleet.
If defender missiles actually worked effectively you would see a fleet of turret sniper BC's fitted with them face of with a drake gang and have a good chance of wining. Either they kite close range turret ships or damp and disrupt long range turret ships out of the fight until they can close range. Long range turret ships do not have space for ewar as they must use valuable mid slots for tracking computers and sensor boosters.
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Bishop120
Caldari Steel Fleet Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.10.16 07:17:00 -
[85]
Drakes are a great FLEET ship. That is what they are and what they provide. One on one they can be be beat by anyone who has skills at using their own battlecruiser. But again that is the same with everything in this game.. max skills and skill at using your ships mean more than anything. The reason they have become so popular is the standard fleet size/composition nowaday has mooved to battlecruiser size. Battlecruisers can hit most every size ship, they are large enough to not insta pop, and they dont take 5 forevers to align and warp to gates like battleships do.
And such as other people say.. you can make the argument about any other ship which dominates in its class size.. think about how Rifters dominate T1 frigates.. Dramiel rules the frigate size in general.. the Thanatos is the best carrier... the way Domis can be used in mass groups... Anyways.. there is no problem with any one of these items.. the Drake due to the popularity of battlecruiser fleets just appears to have some kind of dominance.. it really doesnt.. its just popular flavor of the day.
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Zilberfrid
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Posted - 2010.10.16 11:01:00 -
[86]
Drakes are tier 2 BC's, they are all out of line.
My approach:
Drop the tier system
Make Frigs as good as their top-tier variant, make cruisers as good as their top-tier variant, make BC's as good as their tier 1 variant, BS seem balanced already.
Voila, a lot more interesting ships in the game. ------------------------------------- I like to fly around and shoot stuff.
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ViolenTUK
Gallente Demolition Men
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Posted - 2010.10.16 11:18:00 -
[87]
The Drake has seen the least amount of nerfs over recent years. The only nerf I remember that was aimed at the drake was in 2007 I believe when the shield recharge time was increased to reduce its passive tank. What we are seeing is most of the races ships taking nerf after nerf and in comparison drakes now appear to have advantages. I am not addressing the drake issue directly itÆs just that some of you may have forgotten just how much CCP have systematically run around crippling all of our ships. We donÆt need CCP to cripple another one of Eve ships.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.16 11:49:00 -
[88]
Originally by: ViolenTUK The Drake has seen the least amount of nerfs over recent years. The only nerf I remember that was aimed at the drake was in 2007 I believe when the shield recharge time was increased to reduce its passive tank. What we are seeing is most of the races ships taking nerf after nerf and in comparison drakes now appear to have advantages. I am not addressing the drake issue directly itÆs just that some of you may have forgotten just how much CCP have systematically run around crippling all of our ships. We donÆt need CCP to cripple another one of Eve ships.
I cant remember any BC nerf since the drake nerf. can you point me to some i might have forgotten?
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.16 12:37:00 -
[89]
In no particular chronological order: Hurricane - Projectile buff Harbinger - Laser buff Myrmidon - Drone bandwidth nerf? I didn't play far back enough to see what this was like before they reworked the drone system but I hear it was hilariously OP. No particular buff to speak of, although I suppose the projectile buff could apply as the AC Myrm is pretty good.
So, what nerfs exactly? _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.16 12:41:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington In no particular chronological order: Hurricane - Projectile buff Harbinger - Laser buff Myrmidon - Drone bandwidth nerf? I didn't play far back enough to see what this was like before they reworked the drone system but I hear it was hilariously OP. No particular buff to speak of, although I suppose the projectile buff could apply as the AC Myrm is pretty good.
So, what nerfs exactly?
buffing other ships isnt exactly a nerf for the others. as it might just balance out the buffed ships compared to the others.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.16 13:42:00 -
[91]
Oh I wasn't saying there was any nerfing going on, indirect or otherwise, just that the point about "The Drake has seen the least amount of nerfs over recent years." is ****ing stupid. _________________________________
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.10.16 14:29:00 -
[92]
Sooo... there actually is a viable Caldari PvP ship? Great! That means all the 'Caldari are bad for PvP!' complainers can finally stfu.
So we can move along, right? I mean, everything is ok and fine? Nothing to see here?
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
ViolenTUK
Gallente Demolition Men
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Posted - 2010.10.16 16:46:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Oh I wasn't saying there was any nerfing going on, indirect or otherwise, just that the point about "The Drake has seen the least amount of nerfs over recent years." is ****ing stupid.
Do you remember a drake nerf that we are not aware of?
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.10.16 17:17:00 -
[94]
The Drake is great, has been for many years. If the tactic pepople are using for them right now does not have a counter, a counter should be created instead of nerfing a ship that is balanced just fine when its not in a blob.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.16 18:16:00 -
[95]
Especially as there are no doubt plenty of other ships that would be similarly horrible if blobbed up that people just haven't noticed yet. _________________________________
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.16 18:18:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Sig Sour The Drake is great, has been for many years. If the tactic pepople are using for them right now does not have a counter, a counter should be created instead of nerfing a ship that is balanced just fine when its not in a blob.
try warping a bunch of amarr BS on top of them. they melt quiet nicely. ;)
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ugaloo
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Posted - 2010.10.16 20:40:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Oh I wasn't saying there was any nerfing going on, indirect or otherwise, just that the point about "The Drake has seen the least amount of nerfs over recent years." is ****ing stupid.
You probably didnt understand.
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ICU Now
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Posted - 2010.10.18 20:10:00 -
[98]
The Drake is a well balanced BC that is atypically versatile for Caldari ships when it comes to fitting them. I have a HM fleet fit and HAM solo fit that serves me nicely. I don't see that it is any better or worse (all races' ships have pluses / minuses) than any other ship. As a matter of fact, I find that the other races I have cross trained into are easier to fit in general than Caldari is. What makes it a great fleet ship is that you can get a reasonable BC for 40m isk - it isn't great it and it doesn't suck. I have seen well run Drake army fleets and poorly run fleets - it was a function of the FC's more so than the ships themselves. Like anything in this game, as in life, this is what is fashionable. The fad will pass and there will be another flavor of the month fleet type very soon.
Then we will be subjected to the whining from the losers from those battles on the forum - it's just the cycle of life and Eve.
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Inspiration
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Posted - 2010.10.18 20:35:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Inspiration on 18/10/2010 20:38:51
Originally by: Aerilis Yes, I EFT quite a bit, but I came to think HML Drake's are OP because of in game encounters... I'm in Gallente militia, so we fight the Caldari militia.. ahem Drakes. Lately they all fit for range, and just stay out of our range. We try to counter with range BCs as well, but obviously we don't have as many Drake pilots. Like I said, TRY to make a range fit for any other BC. We still manage to fight them with smart warp-ins and such, but my point is that no other BC comes even REMOTELY close to the range capabilities of the Drake.
Took them only a few years to see what drakes are best used for :)
And every ship has its best use, just find ways to counter. For example, you can sensor damp their ships (but they can do it too), they pose much less of a thread at that range (FoF missiles do less DPS and mostly not carried anyway). And even many drakes die horribly to just a few remote repairing amarr BS, they literally implode!
So take your pick ;)
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Stalking Mantis
Caldari Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2010.10.19 09:56:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Stalking Mantis on 19/10/2010 10:04:49 You see this is why ppl fail at EVE. All they think is tank and gank. The Gallente are THE LAST race that should worry about drakes as they have an ECM speciality of Sensor Damps. Try Sensor Damps/Rails/SentryDrones/Extremly Long Points.
Did I just give tactical advise to the Gallente? It doesnt matter because after the above 95% of EVE players will think Gank and Tank.
Maulus give me 7 of these with sebo range and two sensor damps and long range drakes are useless Ninja Edit for frig advise [/url] |
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Acru Si
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Posted - 2010.10.19 10:07:00 -
[101]
I fear the Drake would still be superior to other t1 BCs even if they removed one of its med slots. (godforbid )
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.19 11:08:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Bad Messenger on 19/10/2010 11:10:24 Drake is in balance. If you know how to play, drake is not overpower thing in range fleets at all. Basically any fleet that has same numbers than drake fleets needs, is good on their job.
But as OP is in gallente militia and they think they are superior pvpers, flying thinks that was FOTM like a 2 years ago, no wonder he is whining about drakes.
Fact is that only thing why drakes are so popular is that almost every newbie trains them for missioning/ratting and then they can fly those in range pvp fleets too.
If you have option to choose from any ship in eve and form a gang from those, you will not choose drakes.
Edit: OP is gallente, he has trouble with his enemies, he is shouting CCP to help, as usual.
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Tosi
NPC Corporation
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Posted - 2010.10.19 11:19:00 -
[103]
Sir Francis Drake dissaproves!
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Acru Si
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Posted - 2010.10.19 11:45:00 -
[104]
What you get out of a ~60 milion isk T2 fitted inssurable T1 Drake?
With proper scimitar support DRAKES WILL NOT DIE !! (not until scimitars are disabled//chased off//killed ) (*artilery fit battleships have a chance to alpha drakes but its hard to pull off on laggy conditions). Moreover DRAKES WILL NOT BE FORCED TO WARP OFF !!! (you're not spending your time warping in and out of combat until you land in a bubble and die). No other t1 hull can do this for the price. Some T2/T3s will be able to match/outmatch performance but with significant pricetag and will be primary magnets...
Now on top of this excellent survability,add superior DPS(vs most targets) (range 40-80km) to all battlecruisers.
Bringing any other BC to a "Drake Fleet" is like bringing a knife to a gun fight...
I would advise you to start training for drake asap, but (most of)you already did :) as shown by all killboards.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.19 12:39:00 -
[105]
Quote: With proper scimitar support DRAKES WILL NOT DIE !
I think this says a lot more about Scimitar balance than Drake balance TBH. As I've said before in the rest of this thread that you obviously haven't bothered reading: you can get good results out of pretty much everything if you back it up with 20 logistic ships. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Acru Si
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Posted - 2010.10.19 12:58:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
you can get good results out of pretty much everything if you back it up with 20 logistic ships.
true to a point, logistics empower every gang...however depending of the enemy firepower it can be much easier to keep drakes alive with say 20 logistics and borderline impossible to keep other BC's alive. The rez bonus and ehp buffer of the drake makes it possible..
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. Black Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.10.19 13:01:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Acru Si
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
you can get good results out of pretty much everything if you back it up with 20 logistic ships.
true to a point, logistics empower every gang...however depending of the enemy firepower it can be much easier to keep drakes alive with say 20 logistics and borderline impossible to keep other BC's alive. The rez bonus and ehp buffer of the drake makes it possible..
Unless they insta pop them 20 logistics should keep any ship alive, and if the fleet is large enough to insta a properly fitted bc (roughly about 45k ehp, on weakest resist) the fleet would be large enough to insta any bc.
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Acru Si
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Posted - 2010.10.19 13:51:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Unless they insta pop them 20 logistics should keep any ship alive...
No.
In large enough engagements there will be a lot of factors undermining logistics performance.
Nr.1 is of course lag - increasing the delay before the primary broadcasts and logistics are able to rep. (stuck modules,list update delays u've been there.. ). Nr.2 is E-war - enemy ecm drones, ecm, damps, neut modules will all negatively impact logistic response. Nr.3 is broadcast noise - effective bomb raids usually cause broadcast floods that prevent logistics from locking into the actual primary.. And so on...
So you depend on EHP until logistics can lock onto you (not enough and you will die before even the first rep cycle arrives - few t1 ships can achieve drake EHP) and you depend on rezistances for the logistics to stop you from melting under the enemy fire when logistics actually start repping (again few t1 ships can achieve drake resitances).
So for Drake the winning recipe is monster EHP, godlike rezists and superior DPS in the 40-80 km range to any other BC.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. Black Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.10.19 14:19:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Acru Si
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Unless they insta pop them 20 logistics should keep any ship alive...
No.
In large enough engagements there will be a lot of factors undermining logistics performance.
Nr.1 is of course lag - increasing the delay before the primary broadcasts and logistics are able to rep. (stuck modules,list update delays u've been there.. ). Nr.2 is E-war - enemy ecm drones, ecm, damps, neut modules will all negatively impact logistic response. Nr.3 is broadcast noise - effective bomb raids usually cause broadcast floods that prevent logistics from locking into the actual primary.. And so on...
So you depend on EHP until logistics can lock onto you (not enough and you will die before even the first rep cycle arrives - few t1 ships can achieve drake EHP) and you depend on rezistances for the logistics to stop you from melting under the enemy fire when logistics actually start repping (again few t1 ships can achieve drake resitances).
So for Drake the winning recipe is monster EHP, godlike rezists and superior DPS in the 40-80 km range to any other BC.
That was kinda my point both gangs would suffer the same problems of lag and so on, and although the drakes ehp is superior the gap isnt that large that it would be impossible to overcome.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.19 14:24:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Aerilis So we all know how everyone says Drakes are OP, but I'd like to bring a new side of this discussion to the forefront--the long range, HML Drake.
I have recently learned (the hard way) that Drakes can dominate long-range battlecruiser combat--check out this fit:
Quote: [Drake, hml] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
This setup does 561 DPS with drones (60km) and 462 DPS all the way out to its locking range (75km) On top of this incredible DPS, it has a ridiculous 83k EHP and it can target paint smaller targets, totally raping frigs and other tackle and making sure the Fury missiles do full damage to all targets. Try to make any ships smaller than a BS come even close to these stats... you simply can't. I don't have the skills for a Drake, so I tried to counter with beam Harbs, arty Hurricanes, even rail Feroxes. Play with EFT, see how pathetic these setups are for yourself compared to the Drake. Sure the missiles take a few seconds to hit their target, but the stats are simply ridiculous...
Thoughts?
Thats a terribad PvP fit why would it need nerfed? Please resize your signature to no more than 120 x 400 pixels - Adida |
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.19 14:27:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Cipher Jones Thats a terribad PvP fit why would it need nerfed?
It is actually a pretty good fleet pvp fit. although one might drop one TP for a sensor damp for more annoyance.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. Black Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.10.19 14:32:00 -
[112]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Cipher Jones Thats a terribad PvP fit why would it need nerfed?
It is actually a pretty good fleet pvp fit. although one might drop one TP for a sensor damp for more annoyance.
Still not a good reason to nerf the drake
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Lacco
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.19 15:36:00 -
[113]
draketrain recruiting I'm on TV! I'm famous! |
Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.10.19 20:54:00 -
[114]
Killboard listings like that lack something vital: Context.
Drakes may be popular in large nullsec fleets because of their cost, damage projection, and overall EHP, but it is incredibly rare that I see a Drake roaming in lowsec, solo or in a gang.
The Drake just doesn't have the DPS and versatility in point range that other BCs do. Drakes are also slow, lumbering, and have a large sig radius. Much of what it can catch will run away.
Due to the magic of missile implementation, the theoretical 20.3km range for HAMs is really more like 18km. If you're HAM fit and a more agile kiter comes along, the best you can hope for is that you have Javs, and that they deal enough damage to force a stalemate. Most of the time they don't, so you get to die slowly.
You can nano it up and use HLs with a long point as a kiting fit, but the speed of your targets means your applied damage is fairly low in that case as well since at range you aren't webbing your target. And, really, you're stuck dealing Kinetic, unless you want to give up that big bonus.
Something else you can do with the Drake, which would be suicidal against a gun boat, is to fly directly away from it to pull range as quickly as possible.
Oh, and that great big EHP buffer? It's only great and big as long as the invulns are running, unlike the EANMs for armor tankers that cannot be turned off. The Drake doesn't have much cap to begin with; add a MWD, and 2 Invulns, point, web if you have one, and a neut - even a small one - is a serious threat.
The Drake has its own set of issues, just like every ship. If it was really a great ship then more people would be flying it - but all I see on my DScan in the BattleCruiser range is the Hurricane, sometimes the Harbinger, and the occasional Myrmidon.
I would like to see it get a slight agility and speed boost. That would help it become viable in low sec and not really affect the null sec blobs. Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.19 22:07:00 -
[115]
^ Nice post. Shame they'll ignore it. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Sakura Shiro
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Posted - 2010.10.19 23:21:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington ^ Nice post. Shame they'll ignore it.
+1. All the ugliness of drake pretty much covered. Have been the drake playing catch up in mixed fleets cause everyone elses BC's may as well have been inty's in terms of agility and speed compared to it. This stuff that after a few months and more people x-train to drake will realize as well. Drake not a perfect ship....its good, but not perfect and not op.
Also is the fun factoid that in mixed smaller engangements...if only 2 targets, you might get 1 salvo on the 2nd target to ho the mail. Keyword might. Being useful dps with less than 4 ships to kill, nope. Can boost to get faster locks, still got that missile travel time. For those who haven't flown or haven't noticed since drake new to them....at about 40 km's something magical happens. You fire your second salvo but first hasn't even hit yet. Gun runners...are already a few salvo's in and started their damage dealing. Like being in the running for top damage dealer...drake will disappoint you many a times ( I have gotten it once or twice...mainyly because the other guy on the mail was the inty tackler using small weapons lol) . Like being final blow, odds are in favor of the gun lovers as well.
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V'hellu
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Posted - 2010.10.19 23:28:00 -
[117]
I could've sworn the drakes were already nerfed in the not too distant past....
Could be wrong though, but I thought it was around the same time that vagabonds were nerfed....
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.20 00:53:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 20/10/2010 00:58:06
Originally by: V'hellu I could've sworn the drakes were already nerfed in the not too distant past....
Could be wrong though, but I thought it was around the same time that vagabonds were nerfed....
You're thinking of the nano nerf. At the same time as speeds were nerfed, missiles were rebalanced so they could actually hit things (albeit still with damage reductions, just not ridiculously huge ones).
Drakes have never been nerfed as such, and missiles in general got a buff, but as I've pointed out last page the other battlecruisers (most recently the Hurricane) have also seen buffs.
Oh and one more point (unrelated to the above): as I've also explained on the previous page, taking killboard stats and saying "Drake is the #1 most used ship, this makes it OP" is just as ****ing stupid as the rest of the nerf calling.
I'd love to see the reaction if someone put a Cerb/Scimi blob together. Similar (pure missile) dps to a Drake with better resists, higher mobility and better range, plus faster missile flight. _________________________________
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V'hellu
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Posted - 2010.10.20 00:58:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Originally by: V'hellu I could've sworn the drakes were already nerfed in the not too distant past....
Could be wrong though, but I thought it was around the same time that vagabonds were nerfed....
You're thinking of the nano nerf. At the same time as speeds were nerfed, missiles were rebalanced so they could actually hit things (albeit still with damage reductions, just not ridiculously huge ones).
Drakes have never been nerfed as such, and missiles in general got a buff, but as I've pointed out last page the other battlecruisers (most recently the Hurricane) have also seen buffs.
Hmm. I thought they nerfed the shield tanking on drakes also, at least that's what I was told when I used to fly drakes.
If that isn't true, then drake shields are a bit OP. I remember once, I tanked either a damnation or absolution in a drake (I forget which is which, it was the field command ship), and almost killed it in a drake against a pirate who had a few years more on my character at the time. Also, it's not too terribly difficult to gear a drake up to tank level 4 missions, which is a bit absurd imo.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.20 01:01:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 20/10/2010 01:02:29
Quote: Hmm. I thought they nerfed the shield tanking on drakes also, at least that's what I was told when I used to fly drakes.
IIRC they nerfed the passive recharge somewhat.
Quote: If that isn't true, then drake shields are a bit OP. I remember once, I tanked either a damnation or absolution in a drake (I forget which is which, it was the field command ship), and almost killed it in a drake against a pirate who had a few years more on my character at the time.
That was a pretty ****-poor Absolution tbh.
Quote: Also, it's not too terribly difficult to gear a drake up to tank level 4 missions, which is a bit absurd imo.
Yes, it can tank them. Good luck doing them in a remotely sensible time compared to a BS though. This situation is fine. (Also PVE and PVP balance should never be mixed.) _________________________________
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Sakura Shiro
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Posted - 2010.10.20 01:25:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Sakura Shiro on 20/10/2010 01:33:46
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington [Yes, it can tank them. Good luck doing them in a remotely sensible time compared to a BS though. This situation is fine. (Also PVE and PVP balance should never be mixed.)
This....only run lv 4 in drake if just training for nighthawk or tengu and don't want to train a raven up to get their faster. Unless rats are serps (kinetic bonus of ship and kinetic weakness of the serps does make drake pretty decent)...its painful And tengu kind of replaces NH because lows are all freed up for the usual 3-4 CN BCU damage mod setups and you just speed tank the lv 4 once you kill off frigates with extreme prejudice.
Gets us back to the main drake drawback....it tanks, but don't gank well solo or in small numbers. 50 of anything will hurt something. Hell after rocket buff as planned, some caldari frigs (edit: and the worm)in large gangs are gonna hurt more. But this is for a future whine thread lol
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Acru Si
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Posted - 2010.10.20 03:52:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Andrea Griffin Killboard listings like that lack something vital: Context.
Drakes may be popular in large nullsec fleets because of their cost, damage projection, and overall EHP, but it is incredibly rare that I see a Drake roaming in lowsec, solo or in a gang.
The Drake just doesn't have the DPS and versatility in point range that other BCs do. Drakes are also slow, lumbering, and have a large sig radius. Much of what it can catch will run away.
Due to the magic of missile implementation, the theoretical 20.3km range for HAMs is really more like 18km. If you're HAM fit and a more agile kiter comes along, the best you can hope for is that you have Javs, and that they deal enough damage to force a stalemate. Most of the time they don't, so you get to die slowly.
You can nano it up and use HLs with a long point as a kiting fit, but the speed of your targets means your applied damage is fairly low in that case as well since at range you aren't webbing your target. And, really, you're stuck dealing Kinetic, unless you want to give up that big bonus.
Something else you can do with the Drake, which would be suicidal against a gun boat, is to fly directly away from it to pull range as quickly as possible.
Oh, and that great big EHP buffer? It's only great and big as long as the invulns are running, unlike the EANMs for armor tankers that cannot be turned off. The Drake doesn't have much cap to begin with; add a MWD, and 2 Invulns, point, web if you have one, and a neut - even a small one - is a serious threat.
The Drake has its own set of issues, just like every ship. If it was really a great ship then more people would be flying it - but all I see on my DScan in the BattleCruiser range is the Hurricane, sometimes the Harbinger, and the occasional Myrmidon.
I would like to see it get a slight agility and speed boost. That would help it become viable in low sec and not really affect the null sec blobs.
+1
Solo or in small gangs drakes are not much of a threat (caldari ship after all). Its when they reach critical mass numbers and get logistics support(in medium-big fleets) that they begin to outperform other battlecruisers.
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Nuts Nougat
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.10.20 08:47:00 -
[123]
Drakes have been awesome for quite a while now. People have been figuring this out for two years (I think it's been 2 years since QR?) non-shocker. It's pretty much the only ship I will never attack as a minmatar pilot (unless in a tempest/hurricane), because it'll do a ton of damage to me no matter what I do, and probably outtank my dps too.
Drakes are fine, it's eagles (or rather, rails) that need fixing. Dunno what to do about cerbs though. I like the ship, but I still wouldn't use it over a muninn... ---
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.20 10:45:00 -
[124]
Ah also, it's just occured to me that if you're talking about nerfing stuff based on its PVE performance - passive tank Ishtar anyone? _________________________________
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Lemmy Kravitz
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Posted - 2010.10.20 10:45:00 -
[125]
I can't ever remember being killed b a drake. They are everywhere. But atleast in highsec fleet work the drake is an after thought really because it's ridiculous tank and **** poor dps. They make good bait, but that's about as far as it gets out here in highsec. Drakes don't need a nerf. You do that and you get rid of an easy kill, cause no one will fly them no more.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2010.10.20 19:41:00 -
[126]
The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and that as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or scenarios is very much more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fighters are close ranged and in small numbers med slots count more.
Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.
It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.20 20:32:00 -
[127]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and that as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or scenarios is very much more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fighters are close ranged and in small numbers med slots count more.
Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.
It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
i think one thing you want to factor in, drakes are often used to counter armor tanked HACs with AB.
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MissBolyai
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.20 20:40:00 -
[128]
I beleive the CEO of Habitual Euthanasia may cry...
if ELISE ****ING RANDOLPH EVER CRIED
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2010.10.20 20:45:00 -
[129]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and that as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or scenarios is very much more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fighters are close ranged and in small numbers med slots count more.
Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.
It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
i think one thing you want to factor in, drakes are often used to counter armor tanked HACs with AB.
Yeah, I more referred to those in the "emergent strategies" bit of my original reply here. We aren't saying the ship on its own is overpowered beyond the fact it doesn't have to choose as much as the others its fitting. When put in that blob scenario is is very powerful and unfortunately causes far greater load than would be ideal.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.20 20:49:00 -
[130]
Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 20:51:06 so instead of workaround the missile issue with nerfing drakes so they get less popular ... how about fixing missiles instead?
(and yes i use missile boats a lot, in different flavors)
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Kaliba Mort
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.20 20:54:00 -
[131]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
i think one thing you want to factor in, drakes are often used to counter armor tanked HACs with AB.
Yeah, I more referred to those in the "emergent strategies" bit of my original reply here. We aren't saying the ship on its own is overpowered beyond the fact it doesn't have to choose as much as the others its fitting. When put in that blob scenario is is very powerful and unfortunately causes far greater load than would be ideal.
The obvious idea here is to maybe fix the missiles so they don't cause the load on the servers? Something is apparently done with fighter bombers to that effect for next expansion.
I'm hoping you are not alluding to nerfing the drake because missiles cause load.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2010.10.20 20:58:00 -
[132]
Originally by: darius mclever Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 20:51:06 so instead of workaround the missile issue with nerfing drakes so they get less popular ... how about fixing missiles instead?
(and yes i use missile boats a lot, in different flavors)
All cards are on the table, we are merely analyzing for now with a high degree of concern its rapid rise in popularity and being open about it. The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others. The rest is scenario specific and not a fault of the drake.
Consider the two issues separate if you will, the balance vs the rest of the class and the load it creates in fleet fight scenarios. We do indeed hope to address all missiles at some point. This is merely a heads up on an early stage investigation where nothing is set in stone.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2010.10.20 21:00:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Kaliba Mort
I'm hoping you are not alluding to nerfing the drake because missiles cause load.
Nope, not at all, the balancing part as stated above is considered separate discussion which mostly revolves around class comparison and explaining popularity. We would definitely not nerf it because missiles caused load. That is a side effect on its own.
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Hatsumi Kobayashi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.20 21:15:00 -
[134]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
(lows for PDU and BCU)
I'm sorry, I can not find any mention of a Power Diagnostics Unit or a Ballistic Control Unit in the game. _____
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Verlaine Glariant
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Posted - 2010.10.20 21:19:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Mag's No
This
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.20 21:49:00 -
[136]
ok ... I have to ask ... you look at the popularity in fleet fights ... since when was the passive recharge in fleet fights enough to save you? i just compared our alliance shield fits. yes the drake can tank 187 dps with passive recharge. but i *highly* doubt that that causes the 30k EHP difference e.g. to the cane fit (120dps tank from recharge).
also ... I would love to fit 3 BCU without any fitting implants, but i'm not sure the 3% cpu implant is worth it, so i stick to a PDS. most of the other fleet BC fits run with 3 dmg mods or 2 dmg mods + 1-2 TE.
A bigger problem for most other BCs in fleets, locking range.
the drake can easily get 82.5km (75km before bonuses) so it can actually lock at the range of its weapons. cane (61.9km), harb (68.8km), brutix (75,6km) would happy if they could even lock that far. most of the times they have no problem hitting at the same range as the drake, if they can lock. so e.g. a cane, looses another mid or low, just to be able to lock at its combat range.
also ... I would be interested ... how does your internal research factor in the dmg difference at close range, where every turrent based BC is far superior to the drake (see post 25)
questions over questions.
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Blackhorizon
Habitual Euthanasia
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Posted - 2010.10.21 00:57:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Blackhorizon on 21/10/2010 01:03:28
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: darius mclever Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 20:51:06 so instead of workaround the missile issue with nerfing drakes so they get less popular ... how about fixing missiles instead?
(and yes i use missile boats a lot, in different flavors)
All cards are on the table, we are merely analyzing for now with a high degree of concern its rapid rise in popularity and being open about it. The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others. The rest is scenario specific and not a fault of the drake.
Consider the two issues separate if you will, the balance vs the rest of the class and the load it creates in fleet fight scenarios. We do indeed hope to address all missiles at some point. This is merely a heads up on an early stage investigation where nothing is set in stone.
The Drake in a HAM configuration is balanced. What's out of line is the HML configuration.
Simple balancing changes: - Reduce HML flight time by 33% - Reduce the base CPU on the Drake by 35 tf - Reduce all HAM CPU requirement by 5%
This should make Drakes with HML less tanky while HAM Drakes are largely unaffected.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages
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Posted - 2010.10.21 01:08:00 -
[138]
Not on topic, just wanted to say seeing so many blue posts in a thread here is encouraging and awesome.
Seeing more of it would be cool too :)
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Admiral Mendel
Caldari Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.21 07:31:00 -
[139]
strange how this is noticed only now, and nobody payed attention when all the caldari were crying foul after the missile deal. nerf A-hacs while you are at it, they overwhelm capital fleets, that's hAx0rZ..... seriously.... passive recharge has nothing to do with the drake in large fleet fights, also, the drake is popular now because of all that lag that has been created, and "insta-damage" is no longer required, when there was no lag, they would send u home if u had missiles...now it's the other way around....
FIX THE BLOODY LAG, and the drake will get fixed all by itself...... 2 old sayings. #1. The nail that sands out gets hammered......strange...the drake didn't stick out for years....only now ppl opened their eyes. #2: DO NOT FIX SOMETHING THAT WORKS!
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. Black Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.10.21 07:32:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Blackhorizon Edited by: Blackhorizon on 21/10/2010 01:03:28
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: darius mclever Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 20:51:06 so instead of workaround the missile issue with nerfing drakes so they get less popular ... how about fixing missiles instead?
(and yes i use missile boats a lot, in different flavors)
All cards are on the table, we are merely analyzing for now with a high degree of concern its rapid rise in popularity and being open about it. The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others. The rest is scenario specific and not a fault of the drake.
Consider the two issues separate if you will, the balance vs the rest of the class and the load it creates in fleet fight scenarios. We do indeed hope to address all missiles at some point. This is merely a heads up on an early stage investigation where nothing is set in stone.
The Drake in a HAM configuration is balanced. What's out of line is the HML configuration.
Simple balancing changes: - Reduce HML flight time by 33% - Reduce the base CPU on the Drake by 35 tf - Reduce all HAM CPU requirement by 5%
This should make Drakes with HML less tanky while HAM Drakes are largely unaffected.
My HAM and HML set ups get exactly the same ehp 83k, so your changes will make the hml set up fairly pointless as you would end up with something with roughly the same ehp as an armor cane, roughly the same align time as the armor cane but 200-300dps less than it
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Admiral Mendel
Caldari Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.21 07:42:00 -
[141]
P.S. u want to balance the BCs, give all races the same BC, or give the gunboats 75km targeting and the drake insta damage. O7
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Marmios
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.10.21 08:37:00 -
[142]
Caldari have finally 1 (!) ship to bring to a fleetfight and you are going to nerf it? Seriously? The option to fit gankand dps is the ONLY option to fit a Drake. If you nerf it, Caldari will be completely useless again. Great.
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ArmyOfMe
Pastry Productions Inc.
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Posted - 2010.10.21 08:48:00 -
[143]
nerf the drake to hell and back while you boost the nighthawk please
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Svennig
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Posted - 2010.10.21 08:56:00 -
[144]
Are you kidding me CCP? You're going to nerf the ONLY decent caldari fleet ship in the game!?? Don't even think about it. Don't even go there. Do not even contemplate it.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. Black Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.10.21 09:01:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Svennig Are you kidding me CCP? You're going to nerf the ONLY decent caldari fleet ship in the game!?? Don't even think about it. Don't even go there. Do not even contemplate it.
Wouldnt go that far, i hear ecm is also good in fleets. But yeah ccp are idiots if they do this
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Marmios
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.10.21 09:04:00 -
[146]
Yeah when you count in being primaried most of the time and experiencing 10 secs of the fight until you explode counts as viable tactic, then id agree.
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Kireiina
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Posted - 2010.10.21 10:38:00 -
[147]
CCP says:
We are concerned there is a ship that someone with under a year of training can fly that is marginally relevant at the strategic level and this is making people fly it. We'll be fixing that so we can return to making the game super-carriers online. Though we're mostly fixing it because we coded missiles as mini-ships whereas we should have coded them just as special effects trails.
As for the OP that is one extremely high skill drake. If all of your pilots can fly something like that you should be in A-HAC's.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.10.21 10:41:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Whitehound on 21/10/2010 10:44:52
Originally by: CCP Chronotis All cards are on the table, we are merely analyzing for now with a high degree of concern its rapid rise in popularity and being open about it. The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others. The rest is scenario specific and not a fault of the drake.
Consider the two issues separate if you will, the balance vs the rest of the class and the load it creates in fleet fight scenarios. We do indeed hope to address all missiles at some point. This is merely a heads up on an early stage investigation where nothing is set in stone.
If the ship's versatility is a problem, because it is becoming too popular, then you should increase the requirements that are needed for flying it effectively. A reduction of several of its core attributes in order to make it a generally thinner ship, would be a good price for its versatility. Highly skilled players will still be able to make use of the Drake, rewarding their many skills with this ship, while at the same time it is sorting out many of the newcomers who only want to get quickly on an easy to fly but yet powerful ship and who do not want to invest into a broad skill set at this stage. The biggest change in popularity will then be seen among the Caldari pilots.
A reduction of a single attribute will not have this effect. Therefore a very small (1%-3%) reduction in many of its attributes like shield, armour, hull, capacitor, recharge times, speed, etc. could counter its increase in popularity without causing a lot of grief among the skilled players or destroying the ship's versatility. --
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.21 11:48:00 -
[149]
Quote: The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank.
Okay maybe i am really missing something, but i think i can safely burst your bubble here. You just posted pretty much the definition of a shield tanker. Every regular shield tanked ship does not need to trade dps for tank. Which is also the reason quite some ships are often fitted with shield tank while not designed for that (*cough* brutix and to lesser extend hyperion).
So if you want to add that they have to choose between tank and gank then just remove shield tanking from the game. But i thought the entire idea is that armor tankers have to choose between tank and gank, while shield tankers choose between tank and ewar/other mid slot modules.
The only reason that the drake is unique in large scale fleet warfare with not havign to choose between tank and gank because it is pretty much the only shield tanker used in large scale combat.
So the vibe i am getting from this is that because shield tankers, so the drake, do not need to choose between tank and gank they need to be nerfed away in order to make sure we will not see large shield based fleets. (Yes i know snipe hacs also are usually shield based, but honestly in todays environment they are not that popular).
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.10.21 12:05:00 -
[150]
Edited by: davet517 on 21/10/2010 12:10:22
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or similar scenarios is more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fights are close ranged and in smaller numbers where med slots count more.
Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.
It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
OK, going to try to remain civil here. If this is a ôhot topic of discussion at CCPö the folks having the discussion need to check in and play their own game instead of having hot discussions and listening to whine threads like this one.
There are lots of drakes in fleets right now because:
1. TheyÆre a poor manÆs version of AHACs that take less pilot skill and cost less to lose. You need greater numbers of them to be effective, but;
2. Just about ANY RATTER CAN FLY ONE. Anyone who has FCed in this game more than once can tell you that unless youÆre in a ôleet PvP allianceö if you call for drakes you can get 100, whereas if you call for just about anything else (including other BCs) youÆll get half as many.
Take a look at the list of commonly used PvP ships that someone posted earlier. You see any other Caldari ships on that list? ThatÆs right, exactly one. The Manticore. Know why? Raven pilots already have most of the needed skills to fly one.
As for missiles lagging out your server, if having missiles in the game is a mistake take them the hell out and give me my 14 million skill points back and IÆll apply them to some gunnery skills. When the nano nerf went in you also nerfed missles to uselessness for PvP.
IÆd love to be able to fly a cerb in a fleet once in a while. Never called for. Raven by all rights should have its place in some kind of PvP fleet too. DoesnÆt, except for a few comedy setups. Rokh? Weeeeeellll, ok, but canÆt you fly a Tempest or an Apoc? Eagle? LOL, dude, cross train and get a Zealot or a Muninn.
There is not a damn thing wrong with the drake that isnÆt wrong with Zealot/Guardian gangs except there are lots of them, for the reasons above. If having missiles in the game is causing you grief, cool, take them out, but give me my skill points back. Leave the Drake alone.
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.10.21 12:12:00 -
[151]
I think the Drake is a good example of a problem that exists in other ship classes, too, but is not so exponated as in the Drake - and that's resist bonuses from the ship.
Resists are awesome. They give higher EHP and, at the same time, increase incoming logistics. Most of the resist-bonused ships are absolutely powerful in the logistics-heavy modern fleets: Drakes, Abaddons, Archons, Aeons are all among the top ships, because their drawbacks are all mitigated in large fleets, and their bonuses can shine a lot. Especially that 25% extra resists, on top of extremely good resists to begin with.
Reduce the +5% per level to resists to +3% per level, and compensate the resist drop with extra shield HP on the base hull. This will leave the ships balanced in small fleets where EHP is EHP, and reduces their effectiveness in large fleets where the resists are a key factor.
PS. If you reduce Drake efficiency, you need to have a look at AHACs, too, though :-)
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lol internets
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.21 13:14:00 -
[152]
Edited by: lol internets on 21/10/2010 13:17:17 Seeing how Drakes are only flown by skill-less blobbers it's absolutely imperative that they are nerfed, but the way to approach this is to nerf blobbing and lack of skill.
For the etalon of lack of skill you could say take anyone with less SP than the average member of a veteran alliance such as Pandemic Legion. The way to appproach this would be +5 lag for each million SPs you don't have compared to our average member. This would be fair and just, ridding Nu Eden of these pathetic blobbers.
//edit: to see how this is true just take a look at any killboard with our people on it. Do we fly Drakes? No. Do they people we beat all the time fly Drakes? Yes.
Goes to show a lot about average player skill and what they're flying, and what should be nerfed.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.10.21 13:17:00 -
[153]
I spent my first couple of years flying falcons cause the drake and caldari BS were BS in fleets... Now it changes and people are calling for a nerf? Funny.
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Admiral Mendel
Caldari Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.21 13:19:00 -
[154]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: darius mclever Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 20:51:06 so instead of workaround the missile issue with nerfing drakes so they get less popular ... how about fixing missiles instead?
(and yes i use missile boats a lot, in different flavors)
All cards are on the table, we are merely analyzing for now with a high degree of concern its rapid rise in popularity and being open about it. The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others. The rest is scenario specific and not a fault of the drake.
Consider the two issues separate if you will, the balance vs the rest of the class and the load it creates in fleet fight scenarios. We do indeed hope to address all missiles at some point. This is merely a heads up on an early stage investigation where nothing is set in stone.
ok...no offense....but what kinda of a reason is "too popular" ??? ppl like it so it's a bad thing??????? anything in the numbers drakes are flying will do a lot of harm....some dude will go...hmmm...let's make arty hurri shield tanks that go 1.5k m/s.....then CCP will be like....OMG new drake on block.....were i put me nerf bat?????
PEOPLE LIKING SOMETHING IS NOT A BLOODY ISSUE, go fix rockets or bloody lag.... you'll nerf the thing, then after (and i hope you will) you fix the lag, you will realize..boy we messed up, now that insta damage is viable again, and the guy can't warp off before missiles arrive...the drake is more useless then before....
go fix stuff that needs fixing sheesh.....and yes i take this personally
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eleve
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Posted - 2010.10.21 13:21:00 -
[155]
Edited by: eleve on 21/10/2010 13:24:15 So there is something wrong when people fly 100 drakes fleet, but it's okay when they are doing it with zealots? Just watch how armor hac fleets are put up: blob of zealots, handfull of guardians and couple t3 cruisers to bring bonuses and long range tackle.
The reason why people are using drakes is armor hacs. Drakes are really the only good option to counter them atm and anyway there still need to be much more drakes on the field to really win them. So if you nerf drakes you just make people need to bring more drakes to counter armor hacs unless you make drakes really totally worthless ships. That just isn't the solution.
And when it comes to about debating the tank&gank part, how about you watch how poor damage missiles really do without any ballistic control systems? Drakes just need to have atleast two ballistic control systems or they are as effective as throwing rocks towards enemy. And shield tankers shouldn't really need to choose much between tank v gank, it's more like gank or tackle.
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.10.21 13:22:00 -
[156]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others.
Anything that can fit heavy missiles has good damage projection. Is the Cerb going to get whacked too? What about heavy missile support Caracals?
Anyway, I'm guessing that the Drake is about to get hit with the nerf bat, removing one of very few Caldari craft that has some solo and small gang viability, just because the null sec alliances like to blob with cheap ships. Thanks, null sec blobs, for ruining it for the rest of us. Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
Admiral Mendel
Caldari Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.21 13:29:00 -
[157]
Originally by: lol internets Edited by: lol internets on 21/10/2010 13:17:17 Seeing how Drakes are only flown by skill-less blobbers it's absolutely imperative that they are nerfed, but the way to approach this is to nerf blobbing and lack of skill.
For the etalon of lack of skill you could say take anyone with less SP than the average member of a veteran alliance such as Pandemic Legion. The way to appproach this would be +5 lag for each million SPs you don't have compared to our average member. This would be fair and just, ridding Nu Eden of these pathetic blobbers.
//edit: to see how this is true just take a look at any killboard with our people on it. Do we fly Drakes? No. Do they people we beat all the time fly Drakes? Yes.
Goes to show a lot about average player skill and what they're flying, and what should be nerfed.
this guy needs to have hes posting privileges revoked
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Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.10.21 14:05:00 -
[158]
The huge problem about this whole "Should Drakes be nerfed?" discussion is that the drake is perfectly balanced in small gangs, it only becomes an issue in fleets.
How can the Drake be nerfed without compromising it's small gang capabilities?
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.10.21 14:16:00 -
[159]
Edited by: davet517 on 21/10/2010 14:17:29
Originally by: lol internets Edited by: lol internets on 21/10/2010 13:17:17
For the etalon of lack of skill you could say take anyone with less SP than the average member of a veteran alliance such as Pandemic Legion. The way to appproach this would be +5 lag for each million SPs you don't have compared to our average member. This would be fair and just, ridding Nu Eden of these pathetic blobbers.
//edit: to see how this is true just take a look at any killboard with our people on it. Do we fly Drakes? No. Do they people we beat all the time fly Drakes? Yes.
Goes to show a lot about average player skill and what they're flying, and what should be nerfed.
This is a man of obvious intelligence. Players probably shouldn't be allowed to undock at all until they have 50 million skill points. I also like the idea of Pandemic Legion members getting +5 lag for each million skill points they don't have compared to me.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.21 14:20:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Don Pellegrino How can the Drake be nerfed without compromising it's small gang capabilities?
Even in fleets it is not overpowered, any competent opponent will counter them easily. A few weeks back everyone was "AB armor hacs are totally overpowered because our fits/fleets cant handle them". now people figured out how to fight them (e.g. with drakes) and suddenly drakes are an issue.
I predict the next wave will be "abaddons with 1400s are to overpowered". again a ship with resists bonus, that gives you enough time to get reps in the current lag situations.
As Admiral Mendel said, fix the underlying issue so the extra buffer from the resist bonus isnt such important/needed anymore.
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lol internets
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.21 14:21:00 -
[161]
Edited by: lol internets on 21/10/2010 14:27:20
Originally by: davet517 Edited by: davet517 on 21/10/2010 14:19:38 Edited by: davet517 on 21/10/2010 14:17:29
Originally by: lol internets Edited by: lol internets on 21/10/2010 13:17:17
For the etalon of lack of skill you could say take anyone with less SP than the average member of a veteran alliance such as Pandemic Legion. The way to appproach this would be +5 lag for each million SPs you don't have compared to our average member. This would be fair and just, ridding Nu Eden of these pathetic blobbers.
//edit: to see how this is true just take a look at any killboard with our people on it. Do we fly Drakes? No. Do they people we beat all the time fly Drakes? Yes.
Goes to show a lot about average player skill and what they're flying, and what should be nerfed.
This is a man of obvious intelligence. Players probably shouldn't be allowed to undock at all until they have 50 million skill points tbfh. I also like the idea of Pandemic Legion members getting +5 lag for each million skill points they don't have compared to me.
No, you see, MC is one of the beginner alliances abusing the Drake and other ships not requiring skill alike, so your average player skill and SP would be far too low to base everything else off.
If you were from a better alliance with a history of success I would believe you, but alas as you are a member of an industrial empire corp you really have no right to talk on this matter.
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.10.21 14:25:00 -
[162]
Originally by: lol internets No, you see, MC is one of the beginner alliances abusing the Drake and ships not requiring alike, so your average player skill and SP would be far too low to base everything else off.
If you were from a better alliance with a history of success I would believe you, but alas as you are a member of an industrial empire corp you really have no right to talk on this matter.
Damn, I've been outed. What was the number of that Drake abuse hotline again? 1-800-NO-Quacks?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.21 14:25:00 -
[163]
Originally by: lol internets No, you see, MC is one of the beginner alliances abusing the Drake and ships not requiring alike, so your average player skill and SP would be far too low to base everything else off.
If you were from a better alliance with a history of success I would believe you, but alas as you are a member of an industrial empire corp you really have no right to talk on this matter.
you are bored of ganking russian ratters?
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Alexandra Stormwing
Blood Money Inc.
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Posted - 2010.10.21 14:39:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Don Pellegrino How can the Drake be nerfed without compromising it's small gang capabilities?
I haven't flown a Drake in large fleet, just some solo and small gang work. I don't really like it because of the reasons Andrea mentioned earlier, but...
I'm not convinced that damage projection is really the issue, since any ship that mounts heavy missile launchers has excellent damage projection. Perhaps heavy missiles should be looked at. I don't use heavies so I can't provide any real input there.
As far as EHP goes, the drake does have a nice amount of EHP which - in my opinion - makes up for all of its failings. If the Drake is to be viable in small gangs, but less viable in large fleets, then I would propose:
1. Cut the base shield amount. This obviously directly affects the amount of total EHP, which will cause them to die faster. 2. Adjust the shield regen rate so that it regenerates at a slightly faster rate than the current Drake. In blobs, shield regen isn't that big a factor because it doesn't help when 20 people are shooting at you. In small gangs, some extra regen will make up a bit for the cut to EHP. 3. Speed increase, sig radius decrease. Another boost in exchange for a cut in EHP, allow a HAM Drake to actually close in on targets.
Another option is to give the Drake a larger drone bay. This will NOT help blobs much at all since they're often at range, but will give the Drake a little extra edge. 75m3 for 3 flights of lights would be a nice touch.
I don't see the "Gank vs. Tank" argument as being viable for Caldari missile boats in general. For shield tanking ships, the choice is between "Tank vs. EWar/Tackle" which is just as important - and one of the reasons why Caldari ships are already unpopular with solo/small gang PvP.
Aside from ECM. If there's one thing that Caldari does well, it's that, but that's about ALL Caldari does well. Everything else is at best mediocre, but in general subpar.
Also: If these Drake blobs are so incredibly popular... ...Why aren't alliances grabbing large Artillery or Beam ships to hit the Drake's worst resists, fitting a bunch of plates, and loading up on the Kinetic resists? (Obviously I don't understand blob warfare, otherwise people would already be doing this)
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Acru Si
Amarr Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.21 15:19:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Alexandra Stormwing .. Also: If these Drake blobs are so incredibly popular... ...Why aren't alliances grabbing large Artillery or Beam ships to hit the Drake's worst resists, fitting a bunch of plates, and loading up on the Kinetic resists? (Obviously I don't understand blob warfare, otherwise people would already be doing this)
(Some) People are already doing this. However a larger skill point set is required than the drake&scimi blob(more expensive ships like artilery abbadons built on the same ehp//high rez//effective ranged damage projection as the drake principle), and its actualy harder to put in practice with comparable//effective numbers than u make it sound.
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Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.10.21 16:34:00 -
[166]
Well I guess all CCP has to do to fix this massive problem of one ship dominating all of EVE is to :
1. Remove shield tanking and adjust mid / low slots of Caldari ships
2. Remove missiles from the game entirely because they cause too much lag
3. Get rid of Drones just to "stick it in" one last time to the Gallente
4. CCP can pat themselves on the back for achieving ballance
Then we can have "Armor Tank Online" or "Super Cap Online"
Trying to stay subscribed to EvE after Dev replies has got to be one of the harder things to do in this game.
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Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.10.21 16:51:00 -
[167]
The Drake has 2 gimmicks: its a pure missile boat with no turrets and a pitiful drone bay, and its one of the few ships in the game that can do a respectable passive/regen tank. Active tanking in fleets is a joke, and active tanking with a drake is unsustainable cap-wise.
If you do anything with the drake's shields, make sure you make gang shield bonuses apply instantly as well (you know, like armor bonuses do).
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.21 17:33:00 -
[168]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank.
This is pure facepalm, Chronotis. Sorry.
As others have stated, the entire point of shield-tanking is that it allows you to choose both gank and tank - at the cost of tackle and ewar.
You seem more concerned by theoretical balance issues - that the Drake finds it easier to fit HMLs than a Hurricane does artillery - rather than the reality. Such as the domination of armour HAC fleets by Zealots, or sniper fleets by the Apocalypse? Seeing Angel ships everywhere? Or carrier fleets only of Archons? Or the complete absence of shield tanks at BS-level or larger? You realise that you're criticising the only case where shields are currently useful in fleet? Yay for diversity... Sort out shield transporter CPU issues, railguns, the Eagle, Scorch and pulse laser tracking, then Drake changes might be slightly more acceptable.
Anyway, the problem isn't the Drake, it's the fleet fights. Get rid of the (super)capital proliferation that has driven BS from the field and you'll see the attractiveness of the Drake for proper fleet work disappear.
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rensshopping
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Posted - 2010.10.21 18:02:00 -
[169]
This is the same CCP that wanted to target paint supercaps
no clue
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StealthSeeYa
H A V O C Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2010.10.21 18:18:00 -
[170]
I dont think you should touch the drake.. let me explain..
Back in the days when you tried to bring a BCs(drakes) fleet to a BS fight first you would be laughed at and you would get toasted quite easilly.. 40-50 BS would insta pop a drake from 150-200km
But now since you can't bring a BS fleet(thats the problem) because 8 bombers can kill it quite easy then people began to think about other strategies.. and then a-hac and drake gangs were born.
It's a sandbox like you are saying.. let people work things around by themselves.. PL already found a way to kill drake fleets.. aka pulse abaddons gang.
And since the reason you are mentionning is that missiles are creating lag/load.. nerfing rof/fittings/missile speed/etc is really the wrong approach, what about fixing the code instead.. the drake is only good for that. Oh and also about "only ship that can have a tank and good dps" please stop with that bull..
Shield tank give you the possibility of having a tank and DPS.. not only on the drake.. look at ferox/hurri/cyclone/tempest/mael/etc.. In the return armor tank do less dmg but free the meds for tackling gear..
Oh and about the range and good shield of the drake.. Caldari aren't suppose to have better shield and range than other races?? like minmatar are speed and DPS..
CCP created the problem when making changes a year ago..
PS:BlackHorizon just don't like the drake at all.. that's why he's complaining :D
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Hratli Smirks
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.10.21 18:21:00 -
[171]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or similar scenarios is more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fights are close ranged and in smaller numbers where med slots count more.
Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.
It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
The reason you are seeing Drake + Scimitar fleets is because they are widely viewed as a workable counter to afterburning armor HAC + Guardian gangs, which will annihilate pretty much any any other fleet composition regardless of size if competently run.
To make this perfectly clear, AB armor HACs + Guardians basically killed off battleships in 0.0 fleet fights which in turn led to a rise in the number of drakefleets. Battleship-sized guns can't track AB armor HACs due to their small sig radius. Bombing armor HAC gangs isn't effective, again, due to sig radius.
If you nerf drakes without doing anything to address the basic issue with logistics and so forth 0.0 fleet warfare will be nothing but AB Armor Zealots + Guardians stomping a human face forever.
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Facepalm
Amarr Battlestars Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.10.21 18:27:00 -
[172]
Coming from an almost exclusively Amarr pilot, the drake is fine as is. Its low skillpoint requirements and low cost allow just about anyone to fly it which makes all levels of combat that much more fun and accessible. If you've learned anything about balancing in this game, any ship that has even a slight advantage will cause it to be the only ship allowed in fleets. Nerfing it will just bring another ship to the forefront.
Now if drakes had more of a requirement of skillpoints or cost, then it'd be more of a concern. If you want to do something about combat balance, take a look at supercarriers as a whole. A year from now the skies will be dominated with them as more and more alliances push for everyone to continue getting into them. Even in my alliance, with a relatively small and ineffective cap fleet, our forums are full of posts "encouraging" everyone to jump into these overpowered tombs asap. ------------
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Weeman
Caldari Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.10.21 19:22:00 -
[173]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or similar scenarios is more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fights are close ranged and in smaller numbers where med slots count more.
Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.
It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
lol. The reason drakes are used is because of ****ty servers. Fix lag and you dont need to fix drakes, its just as simple as that.
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Xyris Rixx
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Posted - 2010.10.21 19:22:00 -
[174]
This is an absolute farce - for one there are three viable options for nullsec fleets:
Battleship gangs/fleets absolutely ream drake fleets - massive sig means large guns hit them hand and are able to alpha through a drake's recharge AND logistic support. On the other hand, armour Hac fleets smash Battleship fleets - to complete the circle Drake fleets (while not "the answer") can beat armour HAC fleets. In essence there is a balanced and well rounded set of options that require strategic choices to be made and increasing interaction between hostile fleets since turning up in mirror-image BS fleets is suboptimal.
Add to the fact that the DPS on a drake is actually fairly poor when compared so other battlecruisers - it is their high alpha that makes them viable, something which has only become significant in the post-dominion lagfest.
Finally consider what other options you have for Caldari pilots - ECM being an option is a joke now it has been nerfed, especially since ECM ships are forced to use tanking midslots for ECM (and armour tank too poorly for actual fleet combat). Missile boats generally do much worse DPS than their equivalents in other races, and using rails generally only get range bonus's over damage.
Caldari ships are almost always one of the poorest options in almost any ship class apart from battlecruisers - surprise surprise CCP want to nerf it!
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Kel'Taran
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Posted - 2010.10.21 19:30:00 -
[175]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Nope, not at all, the balancing part as stated above is considered separate discussion which mostly revolves around class comparison and explaining popularity. We would definitely not nerf it because missiles caused load. That is a side effect on its own.
The load of missiles could be negated by giving us the same fake type of missiles that fighter bombers will be getting in order to reduce the server load. Outside that issue consider this the standard sentiment is caldari (missiles) suck for pvp because there is no instant damage like with turrets. If you make it harder to fit a decent drake it is almost certain that the usage of drakes will once again drop to pve only.
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Purrp Ledone
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Posted - 2010.10.21 19:35:00 -
[176]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months
TEST is about 6 months old... coincidence?
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Jion Tichy
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Posted - 2010.10.21 19:57:00 -
[177]
You know, this type of thread, and FOTM worries in general, strike me as rather pointless for a variety of reasons already covered in this thread.
But I have to admit that the Drake tank is kind of insane. They take just an absurd amount of pounding for the price.
The ultimate outcome from these threads, though, is to have everything watered down and flavorless, nothing better at any given role than anything else. There are a number of ship configurations that absolutely massacre drakes, isk for isk. The fact that so many people field drakes makes these counters even more worthwhile to roll with.
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Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar Eighty Joule Brewery
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Posted - 2010.10.21 20:10:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Vidar Kentoran on 21/10/2010 20:15:35 Edited by: Vidar Kentoran on 21/10/2010 20:12:04
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.
Part of the problem here is that medium gun range is unreasonably short to begin with, except for Scorch-ammo Pulses, short range weapons even using their long range ammo have ridiculously short range for current fleet tactics and even NPC combat. Long range medium weapons give up a huge amount of damage to increase their range to anything reasonable. Maintaining range is challenging, long range guns don't need these huge penalties attached to them anymore, unless you want to cut the range of all missile systems in half to make them more comparable to guns(seriously don't do this, it would turn ratting/missions into pure pain).
If the heavy focus on medium ships being the best(no real T2 battleships so bs hulls will never be capable of matching hac tanks due to logistics making resists more important than ehp, T3 cruisers, etc) and most versatile class continues, you should really put some effort into evening up weapon ranges here.
And seriously. Fix blasters. 1/3 range, massive capacitor use, and tracking so bad you have to use webs or 3 tracking enhancers to hit appropriate-size targets with your full dps is not a reasonable sacrifice for +10% base dps.
The bottom line is that you need to adjust guns to be more competitive now that their instant damage is a mediocre benefit when killing someone is a matter of damage rate vs healing rate because of Logistics, not merely filling up a set bucket of ehp with damage.
Quote: the standard sentiment is caldari (missiles) suck for pvp because there is no instant damage like with turrets.
This is an artifact of the old system where you wanted to alpha someone for their total ehp as fast as possible, and then switch to the next target quickly. Logistics have significantly lengthened time-on-target, and to make matters worse, short range ships have become the tactic of the day.
People who still think that instant damage is the most important thing are stuck in the days of sniping battleships. When you're fighting at 50km instead of 200km and you have someone constantly repping your target, DPS is the most important stat by far, not alpha.
Missile/Shield ships excel at pure dps because they fit their tank in mids and their damage mods in lows and because missiles have better dps overall and historically. Basically, PvP has become more like PvE.
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Dr Cheeto
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.10.21 20:26:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Xyris Rixx This is an absolute farce - for one there are three viable options for nullsec fleets:
Battleship gangs/fleets absolutely ream drake fleets - massive sig means large guns hit them hand and are able to alpha through a drake's recharge AND logistic support. On the other hand, armour Hac fleets smash Battleship fleets - to complete the circle Drake fleets (while not "the answer") can beat armour HAC fleets. In essence there is a balanced and well rounded set of options that require strategic choices to be made and increasing interaction between hostile fleets since turning up in mirror-image BS fleets is suboptimal.
Add to the fact that the DPS on a drake is actually fairly poor when compared so other battlecruisers - it is their high alpha that makes them viable, something which has only become significant in the post-dominion lagfest.
Finally consider what other options you have for Caldari pilots - ECM being an option is a joke now it has been nerfed, especially since ECM ships are forced to use tanking midslots for ECM (and armour tank too poorly for actual fleet combat). Missile boats generally do much worse DPS than their equivalents in other races, and using rails generally only get range bonus's over damage.
Caldari ships are almost always one of the poorest options in almost any ship class apart from battlecruisers - surprise surprise CCP want to nerf it!
Not to mention that ECM simply does not work in high-lag situations.
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iJsn
Doom Guard Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.10.21 20:38:00 -
[180]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: darius mclever Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 20:51:06 so instead of workaround the missile issue with nerfing drakes so they get less popular ... how about fixing missiles instead?
(and yes i use missile boats a lot, in different flavors)
All cards are on the table, we are merely analyzing for now with a high degree of concern its rapid rise in popularity and being open about it. The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others. The rest is scenario specific and not a fault of the drake.
Consider the two issues separate if you will, the balance vs the rest of the class and the load it creates in fleet fight scenarios. We do indeed hope to address all missiles at some point. This is merely a heads up on an early stage investigation where nothing is set in stone.
CCP worries way too much about nerfing things instead of bringing other races (who are in dire need of a face lift) upto par with other races . If they fixed other races there would be more options for people to find counters ...
--------------------------------------------
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Levarr Burton
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Posted - 2010.10.21 20:49:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Levarr Burton on 21/10/2010 20:51:33 Drakes aren't overpowered. Nerfing them would only be forcing a new imbalance on the game and, as some have stated, frustrate the (so far) best counter to AHAC gangs. It is an emerging tactic in the sandbox, let it play its course and see how it works out. Someone mentioned that PL already uses Pulse-apocs to slaughter the new Drake gangs. Took them all of what, 3 weeks to figure that out? AHAC brofist gangs and Stealth Bomber proliferation made BS fleets obsolete, Drake gangs provided a counter (though by no means dominate AHACs like AHACs hammer BS gangs), and BS gangs seem to be emerging again to counter Drake gangs. Don't interrupt this cycle by artificially hampering how players develop these tactics.
Not to mention that the Drake, currently, is one of the first large ships that a newish player will be able to fly in a large gang and feel like they are contributing. It also allows a lower-sp player to utilize pretty much all their PVE-related skillpoints in a PVP-fitted ship.
And, seriously, HML drakes being 31337 DPS? Drakes can put out some nice alpha at serious range, but pretty much any other BC can out DPS it. Failing to adapt to the Drake gang is merely the result of being uncreative, a lack of imagination and theorycrafting. Not Sebo'd? Hit them with bombers, their lock time blows. Or, Pulsepocs for great justice. Oh no, did they mix some bombers or AHACs in with their Drake gang to mess up your battleships? Start bringing some anti-support too. If anything, the rise of the Drake gang will force people to be more creative in their fleet compositions. Adapt or die.
Also, OP, that Drake fit you EFT'd kind of sucks, it has an EM hole looser than...well...yeah. Anyone can make things look good when you plug in perfect-5 skills in EFT. Are there some people able to crank out that 561DPS (462 once the drones die) against a stationary target that Scourge Fury Heavy Missiles hit for full damage? Sure, but it is by no means going to be even 25% of pilots in a drake blob. The average Drake-blob pilot probably does about 300-350DPS, again against a stationary/slow moving target that its missiles hit for full damage. Adapt or die.
Also I find it hilarious that there used to be so many complaints that Caldari suck PVP, and now apparently Drakes are unstoppable.
tl;dr Slaughtered by a Drake blob? Try something different next time. The Drake is useful, but not unbalanced, there are counters. OP is uncreative and bawing. Adapt or die.
Now, CCP, since this thread has your attention for some reason, I feel I should tell you that I am a long suffering Gallente pilot. Can you take all the people you have humm-hawing over whether people finding a use for Drakes in PVP is bad and make them figure something out for Blasters and Railguns? Or even just Blasters. Hybrids suck balls. Or even give Gallente ships bonuses that make them able to get into the range needed to actually use Blasters.
EDIT: Oh, and lag from missiles? FIX THE CODE. THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE PROGRAMMERS.
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Iniquita
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Posted - 2010.10.21 21:00:00 -
[182]
Its pretty dumb to say too many people are flying drakes so we must nerf them. Drakes do sacrifice alot of gank for tank. People just prefer marginal dps and a huge buffer to keep people in the fights.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.21 21:14:00 -
[183]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power.
Er, yes, that's because the other battlecruisers use turret weapons that hit instantly.
And away from battlecruisers, have you noticed how Scorch Zealots and Apocs also have great range, don't have to compromise on tank or gank, and hit instantly to boot?
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Quesa
D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.10.21 21:14:00 -
[184]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or similar scenarios is more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fights are close ranged and in smaller numbers where med slots count more.
Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.
There is still a choice between gank or tank. There are also big differences in how missile systems and turret systems act during combat. Missile systems offer that mid-ranged engagement sphere with consistent damage as long as the target is moving and behaving consistently. Turrets offer the "critical" ability giving it the higher potential damage.
The issue boils down to a problem between long and short range variants of the medium missile systems (and some with the other sizes as well) where HAM's are nearly useless, due to the low increase in damage potential, and the longer range version do consistent damage to almost any target within range. Heavy missiles don't suffer from the high tracking issues you may have when performing high speed and close maneuvers to enemy ships. Missile systems are a different weapon system that isn't affected by high transversal, which is why their weapon systems are very effective against a variety of targets.
If you were somehow able to decrease the effectiveness of missiles whilst the missile shooting ship is moving at high speeds, that might help with the damage potential. You'll also have to take a look at the benefits you'd receive from using the short range versions of this system, ie. Heavy Assault Missiles. HAM's have very short range, slightly higher damage potential with a high fitting cost (thus returning the ship to your gank vs. tank decision) and severe penalties shooting anything that moves at even a moderate speed.
Simply adjusting the buffer of the ship won't solve the problem that you appear to be looking at. Even if the Drake magically dropped 25% in EHP, they'd still be exceedingly effective at their current role, easy to fit, very cheap to manufacture, insurable and pilot-able by low SP pilots (which allows them to add to the greater good of the fleet).
Originally by: CCP Chronotis It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
This type of behavior will continue. I don't necessarily want to go off on too much of a tangent explaining how your recent sovereignty change virtually encourages larger and larger fleets but this trend highlights a possible problem with many of the proposed changes people are coming up with.
Lets also take a look at the bolded part of your post. I just want to clarify that I FEEL that you'd never make a design buff/nerf to a ship or ship class due to it's impact on server performance. People just need to remove the :tinfoil: sometimes and relax.
I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it. -CCP Zulu |
pmchem
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.10.21 21:15:00 -
[185]
Edited by: pmchem on 21/10/2010 21:16:31
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
Have you considered just drastically changing the way missiles are handled in-game? 1. Remove defender missiles, nobody uses them anyway. 2. Make all missiles fake objects ala FB missiles (whatever needs to be done to remove in-game distance/velocity calculations of O(MP) M=missiles P=players in system). 3. (optional, if this isn't in already) Make missiles fired from grouped launchers a "salvo" instead of multiple independent objects which need to be tracked.
Instantly, missile lag goes down by a factor of what, 10? More?
Since Drakes benefit from fleet fight lag in comparison to, say, HACs, addressing the lag issue in a useful way would be a good first step before nerfing the Drake.
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Quesa
D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.10.21 21:20:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Gypsio III
And away from battlecruisers, have you noticed how Scorch Zealots and Apocs also have great range, don't have to compromise on tank or gank, and hit instantly to boot?
I don't think you understand the difference between gank and tank comparisons and effective range and tracking.
Zealots and Apoc's certainly chose between gank and tank. They do, however, have an high effective range. The Zealot or Apoc still needs to choose between those extra resist mods/plates or heat sinks/tracking enh. As you start adding more HS and plates, you also run into problems with pg/cpu and are forced to either downgrade your weapon system or use fitting mods (which reduces both tank and gank).
That's what Chronotis seems to be trying to get across.
I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it. -CCP Zulu |
Kastsumi Kobayariel
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Posted - 2010.10.21 22:10:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank.
Such as the domination of armour HAC fleets by Zealots, or sniper fleets by the Apocalypse? Seeing Angel ships everywhere? Or carrier fleets only of Archons? Or the complete absence of shield tanks at BS-level or larger?
+1'ing this
Seriously, no matter how annoying one might find drake fleets to be, they are, in the end, no different than the all Apoc fleets of yore, all 'geddon fleets, all zealot fleets, all dramiels, all machs, all... See the trend?
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.21 22:10:00 -
[188]
Theres two sides to this. One is that unlike gunships, the drakes longrange weapons allow it to fit additional buffer. Harbingers or hurricanes cannot fit longrange guns and the additional buffer, because the pg/cpu requirement is better balanced for guns then it is for missiles.
If drakes or better yet the missile cpu/pg requirement would be balanced, id strongly suggest that at the same time scorch gets looked at, otherwise it would be armor hac fleets all over. -
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LiMu Bai
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Posted - 2010.10.21 22:22:00 -
[189]
Facts speak for themselves. Just look at the battlereports of all recent fleet fights. Huge Drakespams everywhere in eve. Its all about Drakes and Scimitars. No BS's anymore, no Snipe Hacs.... I feel its like 80% of fleet warfare is currently dominated by huge Drakeblos. By one single ship. And they seem to beat everything. Imho there are 2 main reasons:
1. huge EHP: Drakes are more like BS in this field. 2. Sexy long range dps, which always hits. They hit everything up to 70-80km without tracking issues. At this range they do more damage than typical turret snipesetups. Also more than BS can do with Spike etc... Another rumor I heard is all missiles @ battlefield can hit the target at the same time in lag situations. Insta-death.
PS: Dont forget, Drakes also can run MWDs a long time....so theyre quite fast to close gaps....or to run away^^
Maybe CCP can look into Drakes ehp numbers and the range of Heavy Missiles compared to other LR medium turrets. Especially to reach that range with turret BC you need quite some slots and tank/dps are usally lol.
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Milciades
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Posted - 2010.10.21 22:23:00 -
[190]
Drakes are fine as they are, DO NOT NERF them. Leave them alone.
First, they provide a good platform for noob pilots, allowing them to be part of large fleet engagements without losing more ships than they are able to replace.
Second, Drakes have far less mobility and pay a high price for that, dying a lot when struggling behind fleets when roaming or maneuvering out of bubbles.
Third, Drakes are aligned with Caldari long range tradition, effectively exchanging more DPS later in the engagement for far less initial DPS, as the missiles take forever to hit targets... If small targets die at all, is usually due to their own fault. It is by far well known that small frigs can warp out (and maybe even back) by the time missiles reach their position...
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Quesa
D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.10.21 22:26:00 -
[191]
Originally by: LiMu Bai Facts speak for themselves. Just look at the battlereports of all recent fleet fights. Huge Drakespams everywhere in eve. Its all about Drakes and Scimitars. No BS's anymore, no Snipe Hacs.... I feel its like 80% of fleet warfare is currently dominated by huge Drakeblos. By one single ship. And they seem to beat everything. Imho there are 2 main reasons:
1. huge EHP: Drakes are more like BS in this field. 2. Sexy long range dps, which always hits. They hit everything up to 70-80km without tracking issues. At this range they do more damage than typical turret snipesetups. Also more than BS can do with Spike etc... Another rumor I heard is all missiles @ battlefield can hit the target at the same time in lag situations. Insta-death.
PS: Dont forget, Drakes also can run MWDs a long time....so theyre quite fast to close gaps....or to run away^^
Maybe CCP can look into Drakes ehp numbers and the range of Heavy Missiles compared to other LR medium turrets. Especially to reach that range with turret BC you need quite some slots and tank/dps are usally lol.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is fact-less debating, try to refrain.
I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it. -CCP Zulu |
zzrat
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Posted - 2010.10.21 22:27:00 -
[192]
Drakes dont need a nerf, Stop your crying think of the PVErs , its not all about PVP.
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Wusti
The New Era C0NVICTED
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Posted - 2010.10.21 22:29:00 -
[193]
You can insure them fully, and they work in lag, and even nublets can fly them.
Fix it by nerfing ships and return us to High SP boat domination (AHACs).
Drakes didnt change - your game environment did.
LEAVE MY DUCKLINGS ALONE!!!! _______________________
Welcome to The New Era
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Milciades
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Posted - 2010.10.21 22:43:00 -
[194]
The main problem is not the drakes or the missiles by themselves... The main problem in Eve is the LAG and the recent game sov mechanics, which NOBODY likes...
The new game mechanics encourage more and more huge blob fleet engagements... Favors the blob instead of the pilot ability to fly a ship... Therefore, more and more FCs seek ships and fleet compositions that can last longer in long huge fleet engagements... Which ships can be used here? Of course, Drakes, Abaddons, etc, anything that has decent tank and dps...
And here is the result: as lag and game mechanics forces FCs to use more drakes (among other ships that can tank more), then the lag problem only gets worse as missiles require more server resources compared to other weapons...
The problem is not missiles or any other weapon, but the very rigid game mechanics that just let a few fleet compositions to be effective for a particular objective. Don't be surprised then that such fleet compositions are going to dominate...
Fix LAG and improve current game sov mechanics, favoring more the pilot ability over overwhelming pilot numbers, and you will see more interesting fleet compositions emerging over time, less lag, and happier players...
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Megy Feel
V.L.A.S.T.
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Posted - 2010.10.21 23:58:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power.
Er, yes, that's because the other battlecruisers use turret weapons that hit instantly.
And away from battlecruisers, have you noticed how Scorch Zealots and Apocs also have great range, don't have to compromise on tank or gank, and hit instantly to boot?
Have you noticed Zealot, Apoc have 3x the price tag and SP requirements than Drake? They are also diferent class ships ...
I think you went far far away.
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Hu Evur
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Posted - 2010.10.22 00:25:00 -
[196]
About ****ing time Nerf them all to hell
PVE- The damn thing is the only BC capable of running level 4s in a reasonable manner. Sure you might be able to tank up another BC (Myrm, Prophecy) to survive a level 4 but it will do even less dps than the drake to get there. Alternately you can get more DPS out of a Harb or Hurricane but it will not have the tank then to solo a level 4. In PVE the Drake simply is OP.
PVP- Everyone shat on Drakes originally because they were encountering brick regen Drakes that certainly weren't fitting both a point and a propulsion mod. Then poeple realized just group them togther in buffer fits with logistic support and presto, the only viable monoculture BC fleet. Again, Canes and Harbs can be fit to pump out more DPS, but at shorter range and with a substandard tank.
The Drake and the Myrm need a rework. Look at Amarr, tier 1 prophecy tank (but not op), tier 2 harbinger gank. Minmatar, tier 1 Cyclone tank (although active ), tier 2 Hurricane gank. Now consider Gallente, Tier 1 Brutix tank (although active) and even has some gank (although hybrids, which have problems), tier 2 Myrmidon should be gank but wtf a vexor's dps and active armor tank bonus again whereas you can get a better passive shield tank on it. And then Caldari, Teir 1 Ferox tank, tier 2 Drake wha? tank again and wha? a damage bonus (yeah cry that it's only kinetic).
So, take away the resist bonus of the Drake and the active tank bonus of the Myrm. Make the Drake maybe like the new hawk bonuses, 5% to therm, em, explo missiles and 10% kinetic. Give the Myrm 100m3 bandwidth and a tracking bonus or something similar not so directly a gank bonus. Oh and increase passive recharge on BCs to 1500sec. so that everyone has to fly tech II or a BS in level 4s and large fleets (again you can still fly the BCs in smaller roaming gangs). |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.22 00:45:00 -
[197]
Edited by: chatgris on 22/10/2010 00:51:05 Since we're talking balance..
The original fit is OK, but I prefer nanos. Even without a DCU, the drake quite handily out-tanks other range fit bc's.
But more importantly - what is the counter?
Afterburners - You will be very outmanuveured. Fitting for range on any of the turret BC's generally means you're already very low on PG, and dual propping is tough. You also need to fit armor tanks to keep sig low, which even further murders your manuveurability. Can be countered with excessive target painting. And last I heard, drake fleets ended up being the counter to the AB HAC's - and afterburnering is the only "weakness" missile have. If dual-propping, after you are primaried you have up to 30 seconds to turn off your MWD before turning on the AB - at which point you are probably dead before you can really reap the advantages of lower sig radius and speed.
Remote Sensor Damps - Have very short range (45km with max skills IIRC), and it takes 2 unbonused, range scripted RSD's to damp one drake to below 45km lock range. Even if RSD's had the range to damp effectively from sniper ranges (and assuming a fleet could possibly get most people to target someone different to damp) the drake has the midslots to counter this tactic, even if sensor boosters and RSD's were equal, which they aren't (sensor booster - 60% scripted, max skilled RSD, 42.5% scripted) and still retain a superior tank if RSD's were to become popular. End result - this counter is infeasible in theory, AND in practice (drake fleet can concentrate on primary, the RSD fleets needs to someone get every person damping someone different).
ECM - Sure, everyone can bring ECM to a fight. But drakes have the highest sensor strength of any BC, so all things being equal the drake fleet is more resistant to ECM than any other race.
Any range nano gang that tries to burn in with superior dps will get kited (and the drake fleet and run in all separate directions with no regard to tracking, while the dps fleet needs to try and burn in to zero on one at a time) well before their superior on paper dps is applied.
Any non-drake range BC gang will be faced with the prospect of bringing less gank and less tank to the fight.
The *only* weakness that the drake has on paper is a slower speed (but the same agility as a hurricane!), and less damage against afterburning targets (minimal usage in BC fights). The slower speed does not make up for the longest lock range, the best tank, the best dps at range and the highest sensor strength and the best agility of all the other bc's.
After years of resisting and maxing out my turret support skills - I'm almost done training missile skills because there really is no viable alternative in the bc hull class (used to be the proud owner of 2,165 SP in missiles).
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.22 00:54:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Blackhorizon The Drake in a HAM configuration is balanced. What's out of line is the HML configuration.
Simple balancing changes: - Reduce HML flight time by 33%
And screw the rest of the missile boats. Who cares about them anyway.
/sarcasm
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.22 00:56:00 -
[199]
Originally by: chatgris *snap*
who says you have to play the range game with them? what forbids you to do a quick warp on grid to a spot far enough to warp right on top of them? suddenly you can even attack them with close range battle cruisers. if you let them dictate the game, you will mostlikely loose. just as they will mostlikely loose when they let your gang stay on top of them.
some people make it sound CCP added the drake 6 months back and it runs over everything. If you want to fix something, then fix the lag so the increased EHP of the drake dont matter that much anymore. then i can finally go back to my shield harb.
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Lynn Deniera
Caldari The Foreign Legion Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.10.22 01:02:00 -
[200]
The dps of drakes is terrible, and missiles in general are terrible for pvp, only reason they are used is two-fold - "cheap&easy to use" and "a counter to ahac fleets"
Also the drake fleets are the only real shield pvp fleet going atm, nerf drakes, and everything shields goes out the window, unless people are forced into cruise-Raven fleets to counter ahac gangs.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.22 01:05:00 -
[201]
Originally by: darius mclever who says you have to play the range game with them? what forbids you to do a quick warp on grid to a spot far enough to warp right on top of them? suddenly you can even attack them with close range battle cruisers. if you let them dictate the game, you will mostlikely loose. just as they will mostlikely loose when they let your gang stay on top of them.
If the drake gang keeps moving - pray tell how are you going to get that warp in? Even if you somehow manage to get a covops in front of them, good pilots will see you warping in ahead of them and avert the course pretty easily since you need to speed up from zero.
Even if you get a stupid drake fleet that lets you warp in at zero - they can spread out relatively quickly - assuming they were not spread out to begin with. They may lose a few at the start, but after that you will be forced to burn your superior close range dps around while they can hit you in a spread out formation.
Drakes never need to be balled up to begin with. If they warp as a fleet to a gate, they jump through and presto, they are spread out again. When you take into account time spent burning between targets with a close range fleet vs a lightly spread out drake fleet, drakes will heavily out dps and out tank the close range fleet. AND they can play the range game.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.22 01:12:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Lynn Deniera "a counter to ahac fleets"
Isn't it interesting that one of missiles major enemies (afterburners with low sig radius) still has the drake fleet as the counter?
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Scared Strait
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Posted - 2010.10.22 01:12:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Lynn Deniera The dps of drakes is terrible, and missiles in general are terrible for pvp, only reason they are used is two-fold - "cheap&easy to use" and "a counter to ahac fleets"
This. And as was mentioned several times in this thread: notice the lack of other caldari ships in the stats (please don't even begin to argue the manticore is the best bomber, they're just caldari nitwits with missile skills trying to fly SOMETHING OTHER THAN A GODDAMN DRAKE!).
I'm no more fond of flying drakes 4 of 5 times i'm in a fleet op, but i'd much prefer that to just writing off all my caldari training for naught in pvp. It's a fairly pathetic argument to make that because a lot of drakes can counter utterly broken (terrible tragedy that is hybrid turret) gallente ship tactics and fotm minmatar rubbish (players who couldn't deliniate a new strategy if they were force to do so at gun-point) that they're somehow far out of line.
I agree it's high time for the tables to get turned a bit on balance, but if the first step is to gut the drake, then enjoy watching zealot-wars across the universe.
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CorsairV
Gallente GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.10.22 02:43:00 -
[204]
I don't thin i've ever heard "utterly broken" and "gallente" in the same sentence before. Give the Brutix a buff.
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SPACESHIPS LAWYER
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Posted - 2010.10.22 03:52:00 -
[205]
Drake is indeed FOTM and way overpowered. It is a good ship that just needs some balancing.
reduce cpu to 325 remove shield resistance bonus, remove kinetic bonus and add 2% dmg bonus to all dmg types instead remove 2 mid slots
this is a fair restructuring and keeps the balance in the BC tier
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.22 04:04:00 -
[206]
CCP would not have mentioned this nerf as being on the table if it were not already decided. The POINT of this nerf, as stated, is that Drakes cause lag and a lot of people are flying them. I don't like it, but in this thread CCP has essentially said that they do not want people flying Caldari missile boats in PvP.
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Damar Rocarion
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Posted - 2010.10.22 04:14:00 -
[207]
Originally by: OT Smithers CCP would not have mentioned this nerf as being on the table if it were not already decided. The POINT of this nerf, as stated, is that Drakes cause lag and a lot of people are flying them. I don't like it, but in this thread CCP has essentially said that they do not want people flying Caldari missile boats in PvP.
So because few bitter Gallente FW people scream about drakes because they cannot learn how to play, Drakes are going to be inevitably nerfed. Oh wait....it's gallente we are talking about who already got CCP to balance plexes and get more phat loot to their militia store because of the Caldari.
You might be on to something.
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.22 04:44:00 -
[208]
Clearly, costly and SP-intensive fleet compositions should confer immunity to low-SP, low-cost counters. It's utterly unacceptable that Drakes are even able to take the field in the face of a third of their number in afterburning armor HACs, let alone actually defeat them. Let us restore balance by taking away the Drake's obvious OPness.
seriousedit: I will never go thirsty with the cascade of tears in this thread.
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Lunaria Garde
Minmatar Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2010.10.22 05:20:00 -
[209]
rip hamdrake
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Lemmy Kravitz
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Posted - 2010.10.22 05:59:00 -
[210]
Honestly don't touch the drake. It's fine the way it is. The drake has been this way since I started 2 years ago and I still really don't see a problem with it. you want to do some balancing look at scorch.
Destroyers need love too.
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Prof Fail
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.22 06:10:00 -
[211]
I think its the same issue like it was with nanoships. CCP always acts if a tactic or ship becomes far too popular. In those times the phenomenon of nanogangs occured all over eve. Vagabonds and nanoed Ishtars everywhere. Speed as tactic provided superior advatages in the old days. CCP looked at it and decided to kill off the whole thing.
Now we have a similar situation: Its the Drake. Every large fleetfight consists of boring Drakeblobs. 100 Drakes...200 Drakes and even more. Scroll down killboard-battlereports of some recent fleetfights....Drake-icons everwhere. Drakes in the north, Drakes in the south....in the west and in the east. Just check the numbers someone posted....the Drake is by far the most used ship ingame. By far. Its even worse than it was with Vagabonds & Co.
Imho reasons are:
1. Superior heavy missiles. They have too much range for a medium sized weapon system. Damage projection of heavy missiles is superior to turrets. Missiles deal the same amount of damage at any range. Turrets need skill intensive t2 ammunition to shot long range. Also turrets need alot tracking enhancers/computers to shot this far. Using tech2 range ammo gimps tracking and DMG while missiles always work equally good.
2. Drake has to high fitting ressources. Drakes can easily fit mwd, tank and a full rack of long range weapons. Try this with other BCs. Try to fit a full rack of arties, mwd and shield extenders on a cane..it wont be as easy.
3. Drakes have a rediculous amount of eHP. There is something seriously wrong if a cheap battlecruiser has eHP like a tanked battleship. This resist bonus of 25% is just crazy.
4. Locking range is too high for Drakes. Its the only BC which doesnt need to fit sensorboosters to hit at max range. Skills and simple gangboni are sufficient. Also Drakes dont need to fit tracking stuff to enhance their range. Other BCs have to devote at least 1 midslot for a sensorbooster and up to 3 slots for tracking mods. Finally you have your well tanked drake dishing out max damage @ max range vs. paperthin tanked turret BCs with snipesetup which have to waste 4 slots just to get it working. Also turret ships will do less DMG at medium to long ranges. Its simply not balanced for fleetfights.
5. Also I want to mention you dont need alot skills & skillpoints to max out missile. You need far more skill-requirements and support skills to be an effective gunner. Especially for long range you need alot of skillpoints (tech2 guns + t2 ammo). In case of heavy missiles you simply dont. Just put in your low-skill Caldari Navy whatever heavy missile and perform better than a turret ever can.
To correct the awesomenes' of Drakes in fleet engagements id suggest -60% heavy missile range. As compensation ccp needs to introduce a mod comparable to tracking computers/enhancers...just for missiles. So you can up the range to 70-80 kms. Also the ehp of Drakes should be reduced. Either by removing the 25% resist bonus or by reducing hitpoints itself. Reduce the locking range so the Drake also has to fit a sensor booster. If you do it like this you force the Drakepilots to fit some mods to make the ship long range instead of fitting a crazy buffertank. It might be also useful to reduce Drake's powergrid to prevent this easy cookie-cutter setups. It shouldnt be that easy to fit range, dps, tank and speed at once.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.22 06:15:00 -
[212]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 22/10/2010 06:16:54
Originally by: Quesa
Originally by: LiMu Bai Facts speak for themselves. Just look at the battlereports of all recent fleet fights. Huge Drakespams everywhere in eve. Its all about Drakes and Scimitars. No BS's anymore, no Snipe Hacs.... I feel its like 80% of fleet warfare is currently dominated by huge Drakeblos. By one single ship. And they seem to beat everything. Imho there are 2 main reasons:
1. huge EHP: Drakes are more like BS in this field. 2. Sexy long range dps, which always hits. They hit everything up to 70-80km without tracking issues. At this range they do more damage than typical turret snipesetups. Also more than BS can do with Spike etc... Another rumor I heard is all missiles @ battlefield can hit the target at the same time in lag situations. Insta-death.
PS: Dont forget, Drakes also can run MWDs a long time....so theyre quite fast to close gaps....or to run away^^
Maybe CCP can look into Drakes ehp numbers and the range of Heavy Missiles compared to other LR medium turrets. Especially to reach that range with turret BC you need quite some slots and tank/dps are usally lol.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is fact-less debating, try to refrain.
I dont think this post forms a problem tbh. The 80% is way overestimated which imo makes it enough factless to be allowed to stay here.
More realistic is saying 40% are drakes, 40% are ahacs, 20% are remaining ones (snipe hacs, BS, etc). Now remove drakes, which are countered for example by pulse BS, and the only thing worth flying will be ahacs. I guess the people who want that are the same ones advocating that new people shouldnt complain since you dont need high SP to be useful in pvp, you only need 20M or so, then you are already allowed to join a gang, isnt that great?
But if we do facts, fact is that many shield tankers dont have to choose between tank and gank, since that is how shield tankers were designed (some have to choose due to limitted PG, but that is mainly turret ships since missile ships barely got anything to choose regarding highs). So the 'problem' that some see now is really simple: There is a shield centered fleet useful in 0.0, lets nerf it since that obviously isnt fair to all different armor based fleets viable.
Something else, fake missile calculations from what we know for now are not even close to an option. They are just turret calculations (so not even assuming an infinitely fast missile that would achieve the same), so it would change missile ships to be exactly like turret ships but with a delayed animation. Funny part, that would probably cause a new ship to be FOTM, the raven. Without much issues 250km range that instantly hits and at that range got plenty of tracking. However then an entire weapon range (missiles) is effectively removed from eve. Since apparently some also just want to remove shield tanking from the game, that doesnt leave much diversity left.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.10.22 06:16:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 22/10/2010 06:18:33
Quote: Drake is indeed FOTM and way overpowered. It is a good ship that just needs some balancing.
Arrow reduce cpu to 325 Arrow remove shield resistance bonus, remove kinetic bonus and add 2% dmg bonus to all dmg types instead Arrow remove 2 mid slots
this is a fair restructuring and keeps the balance in the BC tier
lolwat? A.
That isn't enough CPU to fit sfa after T2 launchers 41.3 with max skills * 7 = 289.1 I can't even fit a single shield extender to my mids let alone a BCU or even an invul.
B. because a 25% resist to EM is so huge. A 40% resist on thermal is so huge, considering with A. in place we can't fit any Hardeners. (side note don't use Kin and Explosive against a Drake Just saying. I would love to have a 10% boost to all DMG types over being stuck with just one on Kin, personally I think that would help the drake in DPS overall.
C. Why not with A. in place we can't fit any worth while mods at all in lows or mids so they would be empty anyway. Of course without A we would have 8 utility slots, which means a drake would never be able to reliably fit any tackle, and if it did it would have 0 tank. Lows would remain the same.
So summed up your solution is to make the drake no tank, and no gank. Got ya.
From the tasty tears in here it looks to me like the drake is only OP because it is popular right now as a hard counter to one specific style of fleet play. Unless they buffed the drake in the last 9 months I hadn't played (looks the same to me right now.)
Adding variety and composition to fleets is a bad thing though, bring back Armor BS only, please CPP I wasted 3 years training for the Armor BS gang its not fair that people who didn't now out perform me in Shield + Range gangs!.
(request a firefox grammar check)
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Captain Mung
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Posted - 2010.10.22 06:22:00 -
[214]
Nerf the drake, and buff the Cerb so that it's actually useful. el oh el
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I'm Down
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Posted - 2010.10.22 06:33:00 -
[215]
Edited by: I''m Down on 22/10/2010 06:40:10
The problem with drakes isn't about their damage, it's about their tank. If you don't understand how tanking works, any omni tank shield setup will always naturally have a higher average resist than any omni armor tank, with or with out the additional comp skills. With 0 compensations, an EAN 2 does 20% resist each type, with skills at 5, it does 25%. Compare that with a 0 skill Invul 2 providing 30%. And the ship bonus which doesn't stack with invuls.
What's happened is that when speed got nerfed, and probing got way way better, missiles became more viable in fleets.
So now you have a high average resist ship and a better punch from missiles. Thus the drake boom.
If you are unaware of how Logistics work, let me educate you. Resistances > buffer. Battleships have a huge buffer, but most people omnitank which means lower resistances than a drake. So fewer logistics are needed for equal effect with drakes. The other problem is that battleships cannot work effectively outside of 10km against enemy logistics. Logistics are way to hard to hit with guns beyond that range b/c you can't web them down. But drakes fire cruiser sized missiles. Which means that they can hit and kill enemy logistics way easier.
So you have a ship that can more easily kill enemy logistics, has higher average resistances, average damage, effective range, and the benefits of todays eve environment including easy probing, and no speed.
Then add to it that no other battle cruiser can tank, or do as much damage at range as the drake, and that Hac's have a very small margin of range advantage if you snipe, or lower range and speed than drakes with armor fleets, and you start to run out of options.
I do think there are counters to drakes currently. I do not think that the counters are enough. Remove the resist bonus of the drake....
=====
The easy solution is to change the resist bonus on a drake to a missile velocity bonus or missile flight time bonus just like every tech 1 missile boat. This places it's resist in line with the rest of the BC class which means less effective logistics. And in order for drakes to actually use their new found range, they'd have to choose to lose more tank to fit a sensor booster.
It would also give back the advantage that the old ferox had, and make it relevant again.
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Admiral Mendel
Caldari Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.22 07:02:00 -
[216]
Edited by: Admiral Mendel on 22/10/2010 07:03:50
Originally by: SPACESHIPS LAWYER Drake is indeed FOTM and way overpowered. It is a good ship that just needs some balancing.
reduce cpu to 325 remove shield resistance bonus, remove kinetic bonus and add 2% dmg bonus to all dmg types instead remove 2 mid slots
this is a fair restructuring and keeps the balance in the BC tier
Lord, forgive him...for he is high on something and doesn't know what he is on about... amen
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.10.22 07:10:00 -
[217]
Do you fly a drake or just watch others fly them or others play in EFT with them. First off the build here is good for fleet PVP or maybe being a baity rat drake.
Look at the HAM Drake. It must be inide point range to DPS. Meaning it is a slugfest, also requires the use of a point and a web and an MWD. (3/6 slots used up) Leaving room for an LSE or 2 and a Hardener or 2. With slots in the lows for BCU and DC.
Compared to other BC's that Fit MWD Web point + Extra, and 3 Slots in Lows for Tank leaving 3 for DPS bonus. That deals instant damage and is generally more effective under 20K DPS wise. Which is countered by a higher natural resist.
Look at a Nano fit HM drake that survives/kills with 2X webs, MWD, Point, leaving 2 slots for Tank, 2 Nano's in Lows Leaving room for 2 BCU.
Compared again to a similar ship as above under 24K (to keep point) which out DPS's it, with more tank. Which is countered by a high natural resist.
The long range fleet drake carries no tackle and thus can put on a stronger tank, but it is only as effective at killing as the group around it, it can not hold targets only shoot them from 70-80K. This is the only time a Drake is getting High Tank and Gank, but without tackle it is next to useless on its own. If something bumps into one solo they ignore it an move on.
Should the drake get a "nerf" (dunno why it should). The Issue that brought this up (see the long range fit). Is not going to be changed with the above Idea. Adding yet even more range to the long range. 50 Drakes firing a 3K volley each on the same ship is still a 150K Alpha from anywhere on the field. This is usually what happens when you set up 50 ships to do the same thing at the same time.
Adding range only means that 50 Drakes will pick you off 1 by 1 as you burn out to them. But if you destroy all the tackle you can just fly away and leave them there. Hell @ 70K you should be able to Alpha 1-2 Tackle before those missles destroy 1 of your ships.
Simply put, the tactics used to fight this FLEET setup are the ones that should be called into question. A long Range Drake is useless if its tackle is not there. That means you just fly away.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. Black Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.10.22 07:58:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Prof Fail I think its the same issue like it was with nanoships. CCP always acts if a tactic or ship becomes far too popular. In those times the phenomenon of nanogangs occured all over eve. Vagabonds and nanoed Ishtars everywhere. Speed as tactic provided superior advatages in the old days. CCP looked at it and decided to kill off the whole thing.
Now we have a similar situation: Its the Drake. Every large fleetfight consists of boring Drakeblobs. 100 Drakes...200 Drakes and even more. Scroll down killboard-battlereports of some recent fleetfights....Drake-icons everwhere. Drakes in the north, Drakes in the south....in the west and in the east. Just check the numbers someone posted....the Drake is by far the most used ship ingame. By far. Its even worse than it was with Vagabonds & Co.
Imho reasons are:
1. Superior heavy missiles. They have too much range for a medium sized weapon system. Damage projection of heavy missiles is superior to turrets. Missiles deal the same amount of damage at any range. Turrets need skill intensive t2 ammunition to shot long range. Also turrets need alot tracking enhancers/computers to shot this far. Using tech2 range ammo gimps tracking and DMG while missiles always work equally good.
2. Drake has to high fitting ressources. Drakes can easily fit mwd, tank and a full rack of long range weapons. Try this with other BCs. Try to fit a full rack of arties, mwd and shield extenders on a cane..it wont be as easy.
3. Drakes have a rediculous amount of eHP. There is something seriously wrong if a cheap battlecruiser has eHP like a tanked battleship. This resist bonus of 25% is just crazy.
4. Locking range is too high for Drakes. Its the only BC which doesnt need to fit sensorboosters to hit at max range. Skills and simple gangboni are sufficient. Also Drakes dont need to fit tracking stuff to enhance their range. Other BCs have to devote at least 1 midslot for a sensorbooster and up to 3 slots for tracking mods. Finally you have your well tanked drake dishing out max damage @ max range vs. paperthin tanked turret BCs with snipesetup which have to waste 4 slots just to get it working. Also turret ships will do less DMG at medium to long ranges. Its simply not balanced for fleetfights.
5. Also I want to mention you dont need alot skills & skillpoints to max out missile. You need far more skill-requirements and support skills to be an effective gunner. Especially for long range you need alot of skillpoints (tech2 guns + t2 ammo). In case of heavy missiles you simply dont. Just put in your low-skill Caldari Navy whatever heavy missile and perform better than a turret ever can.
To correct the awesomenes' of Drakes in fleet engagements id suggest -60% heavy missile range. As compensation ccp needs to introduce a mod comparable to tracking computers/enhancers...just for missiles. So you can up the range to 70-80 kms. Also the ehp of Drakes should be reduced. Either by removing the 25% resist bonus or by reducing hitpoints itself. Reduce the locking range so the Drake also has to fit a sensor booster. If you do it like this you force the Drakepilots to fit some mods to make the ship long range instead of fitting a crazy buffertank. It might be also useful to reduce Drake's powergrid to prevent this easy cookie-cutter setups. It shouldnt be that easy to fit range, dps, tank and speed at once.
The -60% range and introduce missiles versions of tracking enhancers i could get behind but the rest of what you said was garbage and would make the drake useless. The tank is all the drake actually has once you remove the range on heavy missiles and introduce missile tracking mods then they have to choose between tank or range/gank.
All in all though there is absolutely nothing wrong with the drake, just fotm 0.0 blob tactics. Soon there will be a different tactic once someone works the counter to drake blobs out. Same as AHacs.
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nostramo
Amarr Evoke. Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.10.22 08:08:00 -
[219]
You du realize, why Drakes are so famoud these days? Drakes didn't change, they were absolutely useless for fleet warfare some pre Dominion!
Drake-Fleets is the only means to fight with smaller numbers versus the blob in laggy situations. Coz u can keep range (missiles), u can make range (MWD), u've got buffer and u can conquer logistics. Armor hacs are maybe as effective as drakes but a lot more expensive.
People will always look for a setups they can escape with if **** hits the fan and that are relatively cheap.
The only setup that was better to fight outnumbered was long range battleships. They got entirely killed by bomber boost and scan-speed boost... Bring back the snipers and u'll get back the battleship fights and reduce drakes.
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Stygian Knight
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.22 08:23:00 -
[220]
Drake strength is in high lag. Drake itself doesn't need change.
Fix lag and you will have multiple counters to everything and player skill will be more important in those situation.
-Bomber fleets will work, -warp outs will work, -targeting will work, -passive regen from drakes will not work like it works now, -non-missile weapons and high dps weapons will work. -more strategies will be invented in lag free environment
One more thing:
It's funny how 10 people need 10 seconds to kill a ship and 300 people need at least 120 seconds.
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Kireiina
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Posted - 2010.10.22 08:39:00 -
[221]
In a fleet battle, if you are primary, passive shield regeneration is meaningless noise. You just need enough of a HP pool to get reps and drake does that well. So does a sig-tanking zealot.
1) The drake fleet formed because speed / sig tanking zealots have made all projectile BC's and all BS's obsolete. Maybe you should look at the sig radius stacking modifiers rather? Lots of your combat dynamics still assume the primacy of Battleships but that is not the reality.
2) I would rather see other BC's, EAF's, AF's and all BS's given a role so that drake fleet is just one tactical option. As it is all of these collapse in the face of AHAC fleets.
3) If you nerf the drake you buff the AHAC strategy. If that becomes the default good luck attracting new players when the standard ship of the line is a 1 year train (assuming nothing else is done).
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Snorre Sturlasson
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Posted - 2010.10.22 08:42:00 -
[222]
Why not make all ships equal for tank and weapons? I've trained gallente ships, minatar ships and caldari because each race had an advantage in different situations. Next I'm going to train Amarr. If CCP is going to nerf the Drake, this game isn't needing races at all.
We should be aware, there is no justice in the equality of ship types. CCP is removing strategic aspects from this game.
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Snorre Sturlasson
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Posted - 2010.10.22 08:46:00 -
[223]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis . The drakes tank or specifically its passive tank does concern us where both can be equally affected in a similar way. Food for thought anyway, we rarely intervene with emergent strategies and tactics as a counter usually matures after some time but will keep an eye on this thread to see what the rest of you think.
The passive tank is a matter for PVE not for large scale PVP. Blow up a Drake isn't really a problem.
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Stygian Knight
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.22 08:54:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Snorre Sturlasson
Originally by: CCP Chronotis . The drakes tank or specifically its passive tank does concern us where both can be equally affected in a similar way. Food for thought anyway, we rarely intervene with emergent strategies and tactics as a counter usually matures after some time but will keep an eye on this thread to see what the rest of you think.
The passive tank is a matter for PVE not for large scale PVP. Blow up a Drake isn't really a problem.
eve is all about %, and every % you can add to your dps/tank is achievement and advantage.
about passive regen, it's not a big deal but just to point you out.
-have you ever been in a 500 vs 500 fight when all are on one grid? -do you know that 300 people in that situation need 2 minutes to kill one ship? -now add some passive regen in those 2 minutes and you have some more ehp overall
every buffered shield ship has that advantage over armor ship with drake on top of the ladder.
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Sverre Haakonson
Gallente X1983
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Posted - 2010.10.22 08:56:00 -
[225]
CCP is searching for a good reason to get less PVE and PVP with misilles to reduce lag with a very cheap nerf, instead of invest in better software.
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Sverre Haakonson
Gallente X1983
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Posted - 2010.10.22 09:02:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Stygian Knight
Originally by: Snorre Sturlasson
Originally by: CCP Chronotis . -have you ever been in a 500 vs 500 fight when all are on one grid? -do you know that 300 people in that situation need 2 minutes to kill one ship? -now add some passive regen in those 2 minutes and you have some more ehp overall
Passive regen isn't a problem if the poeple going to adapt and they do. I fought with AHAC against Drakes and with Drake against Drake. In both cases they blew up, because there are more factors than regen rate.
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Stygian Knight
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.22 09:09:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Sverre Haakonson
Originally by: Stygian Knight
Originally by: Snorre Sturlasson
Originally by: CCP Chronotis . -have you ever been in a 500 vs 500 fight when all are on one grid? -do you know that 300 people in that situation need 2 minutes to kill one ship? -now add some passive regen in those 2 minutes and you have some more ehp overall
Passive regen isn't a problem if the poeple going to adapt and they do. I fought with AHAC against Drakes and with Drake against Drake. In both cases they blew up, because there are more factors than regen rate.
lag is the problem, nothing else
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Sverre Haakonson
Gallente X1983
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Posted - 2010.10.22 10:13:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Stygian Knight
lag is the problem, nothing else
That's the real reason behind this nerf. Misilles in this software design cost to many CPU cycles, as CCP wrote in one Dev blog about SC for some days.
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Damar Rocarion
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Posted - 2010.10.22 10:14:00 -
[229]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
So, have you actually tested would the lag performance be same with say 100 myrmidons with drones or 100 apocs with lasers? Surely there is more load in calculating transversal, etc. for turret weapons? Missiles only calculate speed/sig in damage.
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
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SwissChris1
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Posted - 2010.10.22 10:52:00 -
[230]
This thread makes me sad...Caldari have it hard enough as it is without one of our best (and fast to get into) ships getting nerfed....where will this end? Do you want to nerf Rifters as well because they are one of the best pvp frigates? Oh wait, if you want to nerf Drakes then you are probably Minmatar and you wouldn't want to loose your precious Rifters. (disclaimer: I don't want to nerf rifters! I am just making a point...every race has a niche, without it we might as well all be the same race)
PS: if drakes are so OP why are all you haters not flying them? Turrets are for ***s (that last sentence is a troll)
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2010.10.22 11:00:00 -
[231]
Some really good opinions here. Remember this is atypical of our usual communication which comes following on from some action or pending change. Here we are experimenting in communication and catalyzing an open debate on a question posed regarding drake popularity and whether it is due to it being imbalanced and gathering opinion on that.
As stated in earlier responses which I see some of you skipped(!), we would never nerf the drake because it used missiles and missiles cause additional load, that would be nonsensical indeed as many note.
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SwissChris1
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Posted - 2010.10.22 11:12:00 -
[232]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis As stated in earlier responses which I see some of you skipped(!), we would never nerf the drake because it used missiles and missiles cause additional load, that would be nonsensical indeed as many note.
Oh wow, thanks for clearing that up...it was something along those lines that motivated me to post my love for this ship in this thread.
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Lemmy Kravitz
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Posted - 2010.10.22 11:17:00 -
[233]
Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 22/10/2010 11:18:45 Meh... The only thing I can think of with the drake is this
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Lemmy Kravitz
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Posted - 2010.10.22 11:20:00 -
[234]
Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 22/10/2010 11:21:32 If we are hell bent on a nerf then i would suggest 1 of 2 things
a.) reduce 5% resist bonus to 3% or b.) get rid of resist bonus and replace with a 5% missle range or 5% ecm bonus
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.10.22 11:36:00 -
[235]
Edited by: Shade Millith on 22/10/2010 11:40:29 No
Caldari have a good ship finally for PVP, you even say yourself that one by itself isn't OP
Quote: Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced
Don't screw over small gang's/soloer that use drakes.
Why don't you go nerf amarr? I mean Amarr BS's are the most popular for BS gangs and zealots are the ship of choice for A-HAC gangs.
Edit: How about you buff raven/rokh so they can fit into BS gangs? ------------------------
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. Black Cartel.
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Posted - 2010.10.22 11:39:00 -
[236]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Some really good opinions here. Remember this is atypical of our usual communication which comes following on from some action or pending change. Here we are experimenting in communication and catalyzing an open debate on a question posed regarding drake popularity and whether it is due to it being imbalanced and gathering opinion on that.
As stated in earlier responses which I see some of you skipped(!), we would never nerf the drake because it used missiles and missiles cause additional load, that would be nonsensical indeed as many note.
Its not due to imbalance, there sudden popularity is due to it being the fotm 0.0 tactic, soon they will come up with a new fotm tactic as they always do.
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Sverre Haakonson
Gallente X1983
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Posted - 2010.10.22 11:45:00 -
[237]
I go for cross train instead of nerfing shiptypes. The different races shouldn't be equal. The difference of shiptypes are so interesting. I'm using the Cane for gatecamps and roamings, Drakes and Zealots for Fleets, Sometimes I'm in a Hyperion and sometimes in a Mael. If CCP is making the ships more and more equal we will missing something in this game. Don't do it.
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Skyreth
Gallente SOL Combat War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.22 12:32:00 -
[238]
I warn you, nerfing Drakes will just lead to an increase of smart bombing potatoes...reason for this, with drakes being less effective at both making pretty lights and making people explode...well...we will just have to start parking our potatoes in a trade hub and setting them off (Joking ladies).
Drakes are fine. All you need is to get in close by a scout giving warp-ins or the such and they are doomed. If you want to reduce lag that is caused by missiles, remove them as independent objects and replace them with something similar to the general rounds fired by other weapons *shrugs*.
Note: For all of you who say they need to be nerfed because they are OP, might i suggest doing some training? Of course Drakes are going to own you when you are in a damn newb-ship
Some people are like slinkys....not really good for anything, but they bring |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.22 12:32:00 -
[239]
Drakes are no more overpowered in their class than rifters, thrashers, and sabres are in their class.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.22 12:37:00 -
[240]
Originally by: X Gallentius Drakes are no more overpowered in their class than rifters, thrashers, and sabres are in their class.
Or Zealots, Apocalypses, Archons or Aeons in theirs...
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Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.22 12:50:00 -
[241]
Wait, there is actually a thread, about nerfing Drakes?! A real thread? With devs posting in it?
/me looks out window for flying pigs and falling skies.
Originally by: CCP Navigator Great story but you probably want this in CAOD so feel free to post there with your main.
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wizard87
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Posted - 2010.10.22 13:29:00 -
[242]
The solo Drake is not overpowered, especially put 1v1 against the Myrmidon, Hurricane or Harbinger.
The Drake's advantage is it is a brick with a steady constant DPS. The Myrm doesn't have the same tank and drone DPS is slow and clumsy. The Hurricane is arguably the weakest tank, great DPS but is the most mobile The Harb is great for DPS at good ranges, and a good tank but still not as tanky as a Drake and not very mobile or great at very close range (for example against AB HACs) due to tracking.
So the reason you get more Drakes fleets is because they are the best "all rounder", the ship is often previously trained because passive shield tanks are the most effective for PVE (so people normally have some experience flying them already before they PVP).
Don't overlook cost either:
Shield rigs are relatively cheap compared to armour ones, all the tier 2 BC ship hulls and fittings are relatively cheap compared to BS. I'd argue too cheap relative to most BS prices - by using cruiser sized weapons. Note: you don't lose ISK on a drake, unlike with a Myrm you often lose drones - another disadvantage of Myrms.
Then there's Remote Reparing/Shield logistics:
Shield recharge is very handy especially in scalable fights. This might seem contrary to popular opinion, but it FORCES the enemy to focus fire more or dramatically lose effectiveness - in order to take down a ship.
For example someone shooting an armour buffer on their own by accident or design ina fleet fight will given time remove the ship, or at least make it easier for others to kill later. Not so if they are shooting a Drake - any independant shooting a Drake down to peak recharge is effectively wasting their DPS in a fleet unless the drake is a primary.
Shield Logistics are actually also normally superior the bigger the gang/engagement due to the instant nature of shield repairs, and the normally better resistances of shields than armour.
To be honest I don't know why there are not more RR Raven gangs, but I guess that is more due to the slower DPS of Torps/Cruise and the vulnerablity to smaller ships than any issue with the Raven/shield RR tactic.
Anyway, it is not one thing making the Drake the "best" or "overpowered", it is a combination of things that make it the best of the bunch, especially when grouped that make the drake relatively overpowered.
My personal suggestion is to nerf the peak recharge. Make more Drakes be active tankers and have a less sustainable/permanent tank that actually require the pilots to compromised more than just a lack of tackle.
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.22 13:35:00 -
[243]
Edited by: OT Smithers on 22/10/2010 13:40:56
Originally by: CCP Chronotis As stated in earlier responses which I see some of you skipped(!), we would never nerf the drake because it used missiles and missiles cause additional load, that would be nonsensical indeed as many note.
Nonsense. Of course you would. In fact, that is in essense what you said. It is also one of the stated reasons for the rocket "fix." Further, it makes sense.
What does not make sense is the silly suggestion that Drakes are in any way overpowered when compared to the other ships in their class -- the numbers simply do not back this up. Nor have you guys lept into action to nerf the other FOTM ships (or fix the obviously broken ones), including those that are so far out of balance that they make a mockery of the word. Clearly "BALANCE" has absolutely nothing to do with development priority.
But addressing lag does.
Respectfully, if you need to nerf missile ships to keep them out of large fleet PvP that's fine, but don't p*** on the backs of Caldari pilots and then try to tell them its raining.
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.22 13:38:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Shade Millith Edited by: Shade Millith on 22/10/2010 11:40:29 No
Caldari have a good ship finally for PVP, you even say yourself that one by itself isn't OP
Quote: Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced
Don't screw over small gang's/soloer that use drakes.
Why don't you go nerf amarr? I mean Amarr BS's are the most popular for BS gangs and zealots are the ship of choice for A-HAC gangs.
Edit: How about you buff raven/rokh so they can fit into BS gangs?
Amaar don't fire missiles.
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.10.22 13:45:00 -
[245]
... Or we need more battlecruisers models. Less versatile and more powerful ones. --
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Darth Felin
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Posted - 2010.10.22 13:53:00 -
[246]
Edited by: Darth Felin on 22/10/2010 14:03:08 Edited by: Darth Felin on 22/10/2010 14:02:57 Edited by: Darth Felin on 22/10/2010 14:02:31 Edited by: Darth Felin on 22/10/2010 14:01:33 Edited by: Darth Felin on 22/10/2010 14:00:44 Drake is overpowered beyond the doubt, and it always was overpowered in BC class. It is just inflated by current metagame.
There are two main reasons why it is so good in gangs: 1a) constant (predictable) DPS within weapon range against most targets 1b) default weapon range is very large 2a) very high resists for t1 ship that allow effective usage of RR 2b) very high EHP buffer (BS level buffer actually) that allow Drake to survive first alfa
You can not solve (1) because it is natural feature for missile weapons, and it is hard to change than without complete redesign of weapon system. So you have to take care of second reason.
But it is a littlebit tricky as well. It won't work if you will nerf it PG. Even in single LSE configuration it will have better buffer than most ships. You can not nerf CPU too much as it will kill many viable fitting in solo/small gang and won't solve anything for large gang/fleet fitting (PDS -> co-processor). So you can not solve Drake's problem only by fitting nerf.
So what is left? Resist bonus - it have to go. It will at the same time decrease ship EHP and RR effect without any collateral effect. Maybe and only maybe it is appropriate to decrease ship PG a little bit as well but it it is a work for CCP balancing department.
There are only one question left - what new bonus will replace resist one. It can be standard "T1 caldari" bonus for missile velocity. But I will be really happy if Drake will get one of "T2 caldari" bonuses: "5% bonus to Heavy Missile exposion velocity" or "3% reduction of Heavy Missile damage reduction factor". First bonus is bad imho as it mostly help HAM setups that are close to Amarr than Caldari but latter two are good in solo/small gang and at the same time give almost nothing in large gang/fleet.
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium.
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Posted - 2010.10.22 14:13:00 -
[247]
Honestly, I really dislike the methods of fitting and flying a Drake; an HP brick that is hindered minimally by capacitor warfare, tracking, range, and is so tough that no sane fleet commander will call them primary over more immediate (and fragile) threats.
But, this could be mitigated quite a bit with a simple tweak to the grid requirements of large shield extenders. If they required 50 more grid to fit, a lot of the most common (and overly powerful) setups would no longer work, and would need to be modified.
Replacing the Drake's shield resist bonus with a shield capacity bonus, rate of fire bonus, or something off the wall like a signature radius bonus to MWDs would mitigate a lot of my trouble with the ship -- there are only two ways to fit and fly the ship, and differ only in engagement range. In my opinion, there should always be more than "one" way to fit a ship. The Drake is not a ship that pilots feel encouraged to fiddle with.
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Doctor Alban
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Posted - 2010.10.22 14:15:00 -
[248]
Many here in this thread already pointed it out:
The Drake itself is not OP. Its a very tough BC, but 1on1 it will not rule the BC-Class. Granted, it can win some fights, but it will lose some others too. Its weapon system and characteristics make it great for PvE, but not superior to its rivals in PvP 1on1 or small gang.
The problem is: Drake Blobs with Logistic Support, which rule in lagcombat. Nerfing the ship itself will not solve the problem at all, just make AHACs rule again ...
Besides, speaking of missiles: yes, they work different from turrets. They will deliver reliable DPS from 0-max range, not caring about transversal at all. Thats nice indeed ...
But: they will deliver ZERO DPS over max range, they have no modules to increase range (just rigs and hardwirings), and they will also deal ZERO DPS to any target fast enough / small enough, regardless of its transversal!
If there will be changed anything with missiles, make sure they will not get nerfed in comparison to guns ...
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Kira Korpii
Amarr Pink Bunnies
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Posted - 2010.10.22 14:16:00 -
[249]
In my opinion it is not only drake problem. Of course it is most annoying ship because it can be seen everywhere, almost everyone can fly it and it is used for missions from the very beginning by any new player. Game slowly turns into "drake online". Why? 1) like any battlecruiser it is insanely chip, cost effective (loss after insurance -20m isk) 2) it has not very good DPS, but having 7 launchers it has got HUGE alphastrike and that helps killing everything basically in whole lock range, independent on tracking 0-75km 3) its tank is so impressive you can even throw away some invuls and go with up to 2 ew modules in mid, and it still remains at least good 4) cruiser sized weapons - making sure HACs becoming obsolete, because of very similar mobility(maybe not vagas which is better here) and much lower overall EHP, much higher isk cost 5) easy to roam in, easy to fight blobs in (lagged or not); like mentioned somewhere above it operates usually in ranges you cannot warp to directly with new 5 sec probe time 6) command ships which actually could be very fun to fly for many many players lost purpose with presentation of those insane tier 2 BC's (any field command is worse than properly fitted drake! and they are 3-5 times its price)
I know many of those facts repeat here all over again but hey I may try help out :)
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Comstr
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.10.22 14:35:00 -
[250]
Reduce the Drakes shield resists from 5% per level to 3%. This makes it's tank ability + firepower equal with the other battlecruisers (and perhaps lower it's grid/CPU a small amount to remove one of the shield mod or missile you can currently fit).
This also makes it's logistic ability much less for large scale fleet fights.
For PvP fleet fights, you also need to nurf the sig radius stacking of tech II cruisers - including AHAC's and Logistics. They would still be very useful in small gangs and roams, but with a higher sig radius they become vulnerable to alpha strike from large scale BS/BC fleets and stealth bomber squadron attacks (due to their higher resists and faster speed, they would still be able to engage and escape slower bomber and BS/BC gangs, but not slug it out with them over time).
Increasing sig radius for Logistics also cures their problem of being too effective. They are still very useful on the battlefield, but not at the expense of all other support ships (including having some BC's for anti-cruser work and EW who are currently not needed in place of having more logistics).
Heavy Interdictor's are nurfed to a small extent - they become more vulnerable to fighter bomber's that are their main enemies, but this just reinforces the need to nurf fighter bombers vs non-capital targets.
The problems with HAM's and Pulse Lasers having a too high effective range + tracking, and blasters having the worse of both, should be dealt with separately. Removing the supremacy of Drake's being able to tank+gank and AHAC's being able to speed+gank+sigradiustank is a big enough step to see how it goes first.
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Aessoroz
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Posted - 2010.10.22 14:56:00 -
[251]
Edited by: Aessoroz on 22/10/2010 15:05:12 Edited by: Aessoroz on 22/10/2010 15:04:29 Edited by: Aessoroz on 22/10/2010 15:03:30 Edited by: Aessoroz on 22/10/2010 15:02:41 Edited by: Aessoroz on 22/10/2010 15:01:25 Essentially what is being suggested is to nerf a ship that is being overused for reason, there's a lack of combat ability in other ships that makes the drake extremely extremely for fighting gang types that can't be fought any other way. Take sniper hac gangs for example, they will melt anything that comes close to them including frigates, drakes are the only ship that can tank their massive alpha and still hit them for a good amount of damage when the the target has 20 logis on him. No other bc class ship can survive such a fight, hurricanes are twigs, brutix and ferox may as well be removed from the game until hybrids get reworked and harbi's are for pos bashes. Battleships could be used but they are painfully and will just be outmanuevered by the hac gang extremely quickly. Sure one could just counter with hacs themselves but when you have an alliance of 2000+ NEW players vs. an alliance of older players, you will not be able to get the numbers to even open a fleet of hacs due to training time. If you are going to nerf a drake you need to nerf the reasons why they are used so ridiculously much.
Let me also point that that nerfing the Drake will then increase the use of the myrmidon which can field a ridiculous shield tank comparable to a Drake and those drones? Well I'm pretty sure they are MUCH worse then any performance use from missiles >:) In fact, I am putting up new fits for fleet myrmidons right now, TO ARMS BROTHERS, MAKE CCP CRY!
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.22 16:14:00 -
[252]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/10/2010 16:16:52
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Some really good opinions here. Remember this is atypical of our usual communication which comes following on from some action or pending change. Here we are experimenting in communication and catalyzing an open debate on a question posed regarding drake popularity and whether it is due to it being imbalanced and gathering opinion on that.
As stated in earlier responses which I see some of you skipped(!), we would never nerf the drake because it used missiles and missiles cause additional load, that would be nonsensical indeed as many note.
It's a good approach. Keep it up. :)
I want to point out that the problem you're seeing (Drake blobs) has nothing at all to do with passive shield tanking and shield recharge, and everything to do with the utility of resist bonuses vs rep bonuses and awesome damage projection at range. I know I've gone over this before, but I want to one more time since I know you're keeping track of these things:
Resist Bonus: - 33% Local Rep Bonus (Requires Cap) - 33% EHP Bonus - 33% Remote Rep Bonus
Rep Bonus: - 37.5% Local Rep Bonus (Requires Cap)
Obviously there's something dramatically askew here given your own (company) admission that players will bring as many players as they can every time they can. And bear in mind that I think that the Drake is the best close range brawling BC too ... but it's not nearly as pronounced as the above topic. You guys have some pretty good game designers and honestly balance is better than it's been in a long time. So... I'm sure you'll figure something out that doesn't nerf the Drake too hard in non-overpowered areas. :)
I am going to ask (pretty please with a cherry on top) that you guys spend a few minutes fixing fittings on frigates and T1 cruisers. There's a lot of ships that are just not really viable ships because their fittings are all jacked up (Navy Slicer, Augorer, Omen, Caracal, etc). Also, if you could do away with the ship tier system I'd <3 you forever. :)
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Sagara Takeda
Black Dragon Crime Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.22 16:18:00 -
[253]
If Drakes suck so much according to all of the Eve players replying to this thread, then why is it that nearly every Eve player is flying one? (especially in nullsec, there are legions of them). The math of this makes a point in itself. If Drakes were just as good as any other BC, then the percentages would be more evenly spread out.
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Quesa
D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.10.22 16:21:00 -
[254]
The main reason Drakes fight above their weight class is because of server performance. In high lag situations, MWD can run forever, where normally a Drake would cap out after 3-4 cycles. Lag creates a situation where some damage gets delayed, so every once in a while you'll have 30 seconds worth of missile spamage hit a target at once overwhelming it with alpha.
When you are able to perma-mwd around a target at 20-30k, the tracking of the orbited party is not able to keep up but if the cap worked properly in high lag engagements, Drakes wouldn't be able to do that.
Put together everything that we've seen in 0.0 in the past year, you'll come up with the conclusion that Drakes perform very well in high lag engagements over any other ship type - the decision has been pretty clear for their high use and now it's caught on, surprise, surprise.
In the end, server performance has more to do with the Drake fleets being as popular as they are, than anything else.
I would also like to state that Heavy Missiles are the long range variant of the medium missile systems, so shortening the range doesn't make sense. Missiles aren't affected by what maneuvers you are doing (in terms of hit damage), it's only affected by what your target is doing.
This whole problem has come to past because of the ineffective use of the weapon class tier system. IE. Focused Pulses for anti-cruiser/frig work and Heavy Pulses for anti-BC/BS work (because of tracking).
I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it. -CCP Zulu |
LiMu Bai
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Posted - 2010.10.22 16:36:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Quesa The main reason Drakes fight above their weight class is because of server performance. In high lag situations, MWD can run forever, where normally a Drake would cap out after 3-4 cycles. Lag creates a situation where some damage gets delayed, so every once in a while you'll have 30 seconds worth of missile spamage hit a target at once overwhelming it with alpha.
When you are able to perma-mwd around a target at 20-30k, the tracking of the orbited party is not able to keep up but if the cap worked properly in high lag engagements, Drakes wouldn't be able to do that.
Put together everything that we've seen in 0.0 in the past year, you'll come up with the conclusion that Drakes perform very well in high lag engagements over any other ship type - the decision has been pretty clear for their high use and now it's caught on, surprise, surprise.
Thats exactly how Drakeblobs fight, Ive seen it several times. Full 100% MWD speed the whole duration of the fight, since lag prevents capacitor usage. Drakes are Dodging most of the gunfire with this "tactic" and permanently running away from any close range warpins. Thats also one very big reason why Drakes are overpowered. Most Fleet Drakes also fit speedmods, to exploit this.
Of course other ships also can permanrun their MWDs, but turrets can't hit if youre moving with MWD speeds. So all other combat ships cant exploit this no-cap-in-lag stuff with their MWDs. Only Drakes can zoom around with ludicrous speeds and dish out their full dmg....since missiles dont rely on any tracking. Its time for another nanonerf .)
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.22 16:52:00 -
[256]
Maybe if there was a ship in the game that could stop the RR from happening and be outside of the range of the blob, it wouldn't be so bad. ECM might be a good way to counter it. You would really want to be out at like 150k though. Oh wait you guys *****ed about that ship to no end. Weird that we are seeing this thread now isn't it.
Cut to the chase and make Eve into paper rock scissors?
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Elyham
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2010.10.22 17:03:00 -
[257]
drake nerf, lol.
wait until the bears get the side effects of this nerf and the real tears begin.
change missile bonus to rockets and watch drakes disappear like you want them to. problem solved.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.10.22 17:40:00 -
[258]
Would a decent counter to Drakes not be the Ferox? With two TCs, two SeBos and 3 mag stabs a rail Ferox can hit at over 126 kms with Spike. Granted, the DPS is anemic, but enough of them should be able to counter the Drakes with impunity.
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Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.22 18:51:00 -
[259]
That would require "fixing" the Ferox. There's a reason why people fit them with AC's.
Originally by: CCP Navigator Great story but you probably want this in CAOD so feel free to post there with your main.
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Hori To
Masuat'aa Matari
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Posted - 2010.10.22 18:59:00 -
[260]
infini cap - lag related, not drake related local rep bonus vs resist bonus - local rep bonus is crap compared to resist bonus missile spam overpowered in fleet fights - lag related silly amount of EHP on drakes - +hp mods related, not drake.
everything that's been mentioned that's broken with the drake is not drake related.
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2010.10.22 19:16:00 -
[261]
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 22/10/2010 19:18:42
Considering everything is being measured in comparison only, let's go check BC vs Field Command Ships one.
It's pretty clear that the difference in tier2 BC vs CS perfomance is lowest at Caldari pair (Nighthawk and its poor man's version - Drake - implemented like 1 year after NH with the only purpose to please penny pinchers, who still want to have a powerful ship).
How the hell is it balanced?
CCP, ffs, you can't claim that 'command ships are fine as is' (afaik Zulupark posted that when asked whether CCP planned to do something on CS issue... it was like 2 years ago) and say that Drake is fine, too, at the same time. Either boost Command Ships (each one has to be boosted in its own way, with Sleipnir getting the smallest boost) to a proper level or just fix the damn thing already.
You've been told a gazillion times that there's always a reason if anything is that popular as Drake currently is. You can't say this is due to Caldari being the most popular race at the characters distribution over EVE - we all know how easy it is to cross-train, especially when it comes to battlecruisers. You can't say this is due to the ship being invulnerable like the nano of the older days either. It's cheap, expendable, mind-numbing boring to fly, yet it gets the things done and that's why folks choose it over anything else. What's the damn point in taking Nighthawk when you can get 95% of it for a fraction of a cost? No go compare Sleinir with Cyclone and Hurricane. At the very least the Sleipnir is different to both of them (no split weapons compared to Cyclone, shield tank bonus + the other slot layout compared to Hurricane).
Go make Drake a diverse mixture of guns (or drones)/missiles and things will become much more interesting at the whole. Command Ships are to be ultimate ships of medium-size weaponry. Not tech3 and much less crappy battlecruisers. ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Carebear Collector
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Posted - 2010.10.22 19:33:00 -
[262]
the real issue is caldari and missiles here. caldari race and missiles should be removed from game. all caldari accounts banned for choosing the pve only race.
issue fixed, right whiners?
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Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.10.22 20:53:00 -
[263]
Just Face it, The Dev said it himself...
They do not want Caldari ships to participate in PVP
Train a Zealot like the rest of EVE.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.22 21:49:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Meeko Atari Just Face it, The Dev said it himself...
They do not want Caldari ships to participate in PVP
Train a Zealot like the rest of EVE.
The devs are engaging us in a dialog and specifically say they aren't suggesting that at all, and are providing other boosts to Caldari ships in this patch. And still you want to go be a whiny little *****.
**** you. They're doing it right for once and you people are still *****ing.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.10.22 22:23:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Meeko Atari Just Face it, The Dev said it himself...
They do not want Caldari ships to participate in PVP
Train a Zealot like the rest of EVE.
The devs are engaging us in a dialog and specifically say they aren't suggesting that at all, and are providing other boosts to Caldari ships in this patch. And still you want to go be a whiny little *****.
**** you. They're doing it right for once and you people are still *****ing.
-Liang
QFT^10
I honestly don't understand the level of backwardness in some of these people. Drakes ARE currently the FOTM in medium/long range combat, being able to take on anything in sufficient numbers.
And that's just fine. (And I don't even fly the damn things).
And then CCP finally boosts Rockets and gives the Hawk a mild PG boost.
And you still get immensely challenged individuals complaining about Caldari being poor at PvP.
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Noemi Nagano
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Posted - 2010.10.22 22:23:00 -
[266]
As a long time Caldari-pilot I admit nerfing the Drake is something which would hurt a lot - it seems to be the only viable combat vessel for Caldari atm, all other fleet ships are just support/ewar or outclassed by their counterparts. If its a MWD/lag/missile-problem pls try to fix it in another way - I dont know how exactly, but nerfing the Drake will just get some other ship take its role. Adjusting Command Ships to be better than they are now and esp. in comparison to their t1 tier 2 cousins should be done soon though.
And like others before already said: missile ranges might be long, esp. for heavy missile - but they have no falloff, and there damage can be reduced with defenders (although not viable in fleet pvp :D :D ). If you change something with them (=nerf), then dont forget about the drawbacks in comparison to other systems.
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Super Chair
Caldari Flying Furniture Emporium
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Posted - 2010.10.22 22:52:00 -
[267]
Drakes are fine.
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.23 00:36:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Bomberlocks I honestly don't understand the level of backwardness in some of these people. Drakes ARE currently the FOTM in medium/long range combat, being able to take on anything in sufficient numbers.
Yes. However... Drakes, by the Devs own admission, objective comparisson, and observation are NOT overpowered in anything less than lag conditions. The entire BC class of ships is arguable the most balanced in the entire game. Drakes are not the FOTM in low-se or in small gangs in 0.0. They are one of three FOTM's in large fleet battles in 0.0. That's it.
The devs want to end this. The PROBLEM is that Drakes are not overpowered to begin with so the only way to end its use is to break the freaking ship. Simple enough?
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.10.23 01:41:00 -
[269]
Or just rework the missile tracking system, and fix the lag created by that. Solution to drones causing lag was reduce drone numbers, solution to missiles causing lag reduce missile numbers. Easiest way to do that without killing a well balanced ship is to just get rid of missile travel, make the damage instant and use the Distance/Velocity of missiles (currently the time it takes a missile to hit a target once launched) as a variable addition to missile launcher delay. Keeps the DPS of missile chuckers in place, and reduces missiles being objects in space, and thus the requirement of tracking them through space. All it is, is an animation issue get rid of the object from space and it won't be an issue.
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GamTen
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Posted - 2010.10.23 02:15:00 -
[270]
So everyone who says that the drake's resists are overpowered? The ferox has the same shield resists and bonus per level. Is the ferox overpowered too?
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Alt FTW
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Posted - 2010.10.23 02:41:00 -
[271]
I have no valuable insights into drakes & PvP, but I understand a certain concern if they seem to become too ubiquitous.
However, I would just from a more general perspective caution against nerfs like this unless it's absolutely necessary (i.e. if otherwise the future of EVE will be Drakes & nothing else).
Uncertainty about nerfs makes it harder for younger (and less wealthy) players to make their choices. Older players can more easily switch around, younger players can't. In any case, out-of-game uncertainty is bad for everyone, making planning and developing tactics more difficult.
It could even make players lazy: instead of using intelligence and clever tactics to counter certain situations, they will just call/wait for CCP's rebalancing.
Moreover, there is a danger that nerfing becomes synonymous with making all ships equal (I'm not saying that's the specific case here, but generally speaking).
So, just my two cents: be very carefully in trying to "fix" things through nerfing. Only nerf/balance in the most extreme cases.
I don't get the impression that's the case with Drakes (yet), but, as I wrote above, I'm not an expert on that.
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.10.23 02:51:00 -
[272]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Some really good opinions here. Remember this is atypical of our usual communication which comes following on from some action or pending change. Here we are experimenting in communication and catalyzing an open debate on a question posed regarding drake popularity and whether it is due to it being imbalanced and gathering opinion on that.
As stated in earlier responses which I see some of you skipped(!), we would never nerf the drake because it used missiles and missiles cause additional load, that would be nonsensical indeed as many note.
IF, you really want to investigate this, load up toad and run some numbers. You folks inside the firewall have access to much better information than we do. It might sound cynical, but I don't think you're really interested in invetigating. What you're doing here is trolling to fan the flames of a whine thread to give youself some political cover.
Drakes aren't overpowered, and I think you know that. They have a well earned reputation of being the tankiest of the battlecruisers with anemic DPS compared to some of the others. If you nerf their tank they'l just be the BC with anemic DPS compared to the other, and take their place on the shelf next to all of the other Caldari ships that never get used.
The only reason they are so popular is that they are an "everyman's" counter to AHACs and other popular compositions that take a lot more isk and SP to field effectively. The reason that you see so many of them is because so many pilots have the skill to fly them, being a popular PvE ship.
Leave them alone. IF missles are making your server cry, fix that.
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Hound Halfhand
Minmatar Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2010.10.23 03:07:00 -
[273]
IMHO nerfing Drakes will hurt the noobs only. Most of the veteran players don't fly them regularly. Drakes allow capsuleers to participate in PvP fights without having to have a large amount of SP.
The reason you see so many Drakes is that so many choose Caldari when they first join EVE and its the easily the best T1 ship Caldari has and maybe the best ship they have period. At this time most pilots aren't fly any Caldari gunboats, assault ships, heavy assault ships or capitals. Why nerf the one ship that is actually used outside of Empire? Has to be a better way to fix lag.
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Captain Mung
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Posted - 2010.10.23 03:32:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Hound Halfhand IMHO nerfing Drakes will hurt the noobs only. Most of the veteran players don't fly them regularly.
Not much of a PvP'er are ya? Lets not forget the thousands of drakes flying around in drake fleets.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.10.23 03:50:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Captain Mung
Originally by: Hound Halfhand IMHO nerfing Drakes will hurt the noobs only. Most of the veteran players don't fly them regularly.
Not much of a PvP'er are ya? Lets not forget the thousands of drakes flying around in FOTM drake fleets.
ftfy
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.10.23 03:53:00 -
[276]
Edited by: Shade Millith on 23/10/2010 03:55:06
Originally by: Captain Mung
Originally by: Hound Halfhand IMHO nerfing Drakes will hurt the noobs only. Most of the veteran players don't fly them regularly.
Not much of a PvP'er are ya? Lets not forget the thousands of drakes flying around in drake fleets.
Or the thousands of zealots in A-HAC gangs, or the thousands of Amarr BS's in BS gangs, or the sabre being the only worthwile combat DIC, or the Ishkur being the best AF, or the X ship being the best general Y ship type
It's a FOTM atm because it's a excelent counter to the newish A-HAC fleet. ------------------------
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.10.23 04:24:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Shade Millith Edited by: Shade Millith on 23/10/2010 03:58:39 Edited by: Shade Millith on 23/10/2010 03:55:06
Originally by: Captain Mung
Originally by: Hound Halfhand IMHO nerfing Drakes will hurt the noobs only. Most of the veteran players don't fly them regularly.
Not much of a PvP'er are ya? Lets not forget the thousands of drakes flying around in drake fleets.
Or the thousands of zealots in A-HAC gangs, or the thousands of Amarr BS's in BS gangs, or the sabre being the only worthwile combat DIC, or the Ishkur being the best AF, or the X ship being the best general Y ship type
It's a FOTM atm because it's a excelent counter to the newish A-HAC fleet. You know, that FOTM that was attacking BS fleets 3 or more times their size and winning? I don't see CCP thinking about nerfing that
Its because missiles are causing Lag and the only logical way to combat that is to nerf missile using ships to deter anyone from using them, instead of you know fixing the issue of missiles causing lag.
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Tauni
Caldari Chained Reactions
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Posted - 2010.10.23 04:49:00 -
[278]
Not really sure where to start...
I fly drakes -- a lot -- both passive (pve) and buffer (pvp). I spend lots of time in wormholes; only pvp I've seen is small-scale (compared to nullsec). So I'm a little biased here. I don't have a dog in the nullsec fights, but any change to Drakes would most definitely affect me (and the people I fly with).
I have to say that I'm a bit puzzled to hear that CCP is considering nerfing the Drake's passive regen...to fix its effectiveness in large fleet fights?! Did I misread something?
It's also odd to hear that a Drake doesn't have to choose between gank and tank, when simply choosing to fly a Drake in the first place is a choice for tank over gank. I understand the point being made regarding fitting -- though I'd point out, as others have, that this has to do with the Drake being shieldtanked -- but the Drake doesn't have both tank and gank. It can be heavily tanked, it's slow, has okayish dps, and can have good range if it's fit with HMLs. That other BCs have trouble being fitted to match an HML's Drake's tank, range, and dps -- well, sure, but a Drake would probably have trouble being fitted to match other ships' specialties too. Not every ship is ideal for every role.
In any event, it's odd to be hearing that the Drake is now some PVP powerhouse, when I had gotten used to people talking about how both shieldtanking and missiles are frowned on in PVP. Go figure. :)
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.23 04:54:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Shade Millith I don't see CCP thinking about nerfing that
That's because this has nothing to do with balance. If it did we wouldn't be discussing BCs --arguably the most balanced class of ship in the game -- at all.
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.23 04:56:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider Its because missiles are causing Lag and the only logical way to combat that is to nerf missile using ships to deter anyone from using them, instead of you know fixing the issue of missiles causing lag.
Obviously there is no easy way to do this or they wouldn't be discussing neutering the Drake.
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Captain Mung
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Posted - 2010.10.23 05:03:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Shade Millith Edited by: Shade Millith on 23/10/2010 03:58:39 Edited by: Shade Millith on 23/10/2010 03:55:06
Originally by: Captain Mung
Originally by: Hound Halfhand IMHO nerfing Drakes will hurt the noobs only. Most of the veteran players don't fly them regularly.
Not much of a PvP'er are ya? Lets not forget the thousands of drakes flying around in drake fleets.
Or the thousands of zealots in A-HAC gangs, or the thousands of Amarr BS's in BS gangs, or the sabre being the only worthwile combat DIC, or the Ishkur being the best AF, or the X ship being the best general Y ship type
It's a FOTM atm because it's a excelent counter to the newish A-HAC fleet. You know, that FOTM that was attacking BS fleets 3 or more times their size and winning? I don't see CCP thinking about nerfing that
Look at his post, then at mine. Then at his, then at mine. It should be apparent from the two that I was merely implying that "vets don't fly them regularly" is not a true statement (they are flown all the time). No where did I state that it's the only ship being flown by vets so your "or the thousands of x, y, z's being flown" statement doesn't exactly relate.
The fact that a 50mil ship is an excellent counter to 120mil ship should say something, if anything the Cerb should be the answer to AHAC gangs, not the Drake. And it's more of a flavor of the past multiple months since dominion than a FOTM.
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doubles ondoubles
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Posted - 2010.10.23 05:58:00 -
[282]
1. If you get rid of the drakes Resist bonus, it ends up with a huge EM hole that the other ships don't have. So nerf all other ships and give them a 0% resistTh in something.
2. After how many years in eve are people relizing that sheild tanks give a ton more EHP then armor. Every sheild tank ship is like this. EFT warrior super caps and see what happens.
3. The ship is slow, has a sig radius the size of a moon.
4. The OP post a fit using all lvl 5 skills, and faction missiles. You might get maybe 5 people in a fleet with all Lvl 5 skills the rest won't. The average T2 fitted drake user puts out around 425dps, and uses ecm drones now.
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.10.23 06:03:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Captain Mung The fact that a 50mil ship is an excellent counter to 120mil ship should say something, if anything the Cerb should be the answer to AHAC gangs, not the Drake. And it's more of a flavor of the past multiple months since dominion than a FOTM.
A rifter can kill a Raven, solo. So, should the rifter be nerfed because a 250k hull can beat a 60m hull? Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.23 06:08:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Andrea Griffin
Originally by: Captain Mung The fact that a 50mil ship is an excellent counter to 120mil ship should say something, if anything the Cerb should be the answer to AHAC gangs, not the Drake. And it's more of a flavor of the past multiple months since dominion than a FOTM.
A rifter can kill a Raven, solo. So, should the rifter be nerfed because a 250k hull can beat a 60m hull?
Wow this thread exploded. I just want to point out what's flawed with this comparison.
If you know you're going up against a Rifter, you can fit another frigate of equal value to counter the Rifter and easily win.
Now try to apply this to Drake fleets.
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Captain Sweatervest
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Posted - 2010.10.23 06:16:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Aerilis Now try to apply this to Drake fleets.
Ranged battleship fleets wreck them. Unfortunately due to aformentioned supercap/ahac proliferation issues this kind of fleet is hardly considered by FCs. The drake merely takes advantage of the fact players are afraid to undock in something big enough to get hit by a fighter bomber. The solution is simply to nerf SCs, not drakes.
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.10.23 07:00:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Captain Mung
Originally by: Shade Millith Edited by: Shade Millith on 23/10/2010 03:58:39 Edited by: Shade Millith on 23/10/2010 03:55:06
Originally by: Captain Mung
Originally by: Hound Halfhand IMHO nerfing Drakes will hurt the noobs only. Most of the veteran players don't fly them regularly.
Not much of a PvP'er are ya? Lets not forget the thousands of drakes flying around in drake fleets.
Or the thousands of zealots in A-HAC gangs, or the thousands of Amarr BS's in BS gangs, or the sabre being the only worthwile combat DIC, or the Ishkur being the best AF, or the X ship being the best general Y ship type
It's a FOTM atm because it's a excelent counter to the newish A-HAC fleet. You know, that FOTM that was attacking BS fleets 3 or more times their size and winning? I don't see CCP thinking about nerfing that
Look at his post, then at mine. Then at his, then at mine. It should be apparent from the two that I was merely implying that "vets don't fly them regularly" is not a true statement (they are flown all the time). No where did I state that it's the only ship being flown by vets so your "or the thousands of x, y, z's being flown" statement doesn't exactly relate.
The fact that a 50mil ship is an excellent counter to 120mil ship should say something, if anything the Cerb should be the answer to AHAC gangs, not the Drake. And it's more of a flavor of the past multiple months since dominion than a FOTM.
IIRC, weren't BC's implmented as something to counter cruisers, including HAC's? I mean almost any HAC vs a BC 1v1 is pretty suicidal for the HAC. ------------------------
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Noemi Nagano
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Posted - 2010.10.23 07:51:00 -
[287]
Excellent point. 1on1 HACs are not meant to be able to beat their BC counterparts easily. So there is no reason a Drake fleet should NOT be able to kill an AHAC fleet. Else you would need to nerf all BCs or buff all HACs.
Problem is the lag - fix it and dont nerf a well balanced ship, which still is the only one useful for Caldari in fleet COMBAT.
(Or do you want to fix Cruise Missiles so they are able to hit AHACs good enough ;) )
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.23 08:24:00 -
[288]
Indeed, BCs are natural counter to cruisers. However by having almost as large sig radius as a BS (in case of drake, as large), it can be hit by BS guns and loses against BS. Meanwhile the BS cant track cruisers so loses against them in theory. So there you got a nice rock, paper, scissors model.
Now when busy with the rock, paper, scissors anyway, lets upgrade that model. As some say, HAC is more expensive than drake and cheaper than a reaper with estamels invuln field so should lose horribly to those rifters, which needs to be changed. Anyway back to HACs being more expensive. It is like replacing your scissors with a chain saw. Chain saw beats scissors, and completely owns paper. However it still loses against a rock.
In other words: Higher price means it should be more effective, but doesnt mean it should defeat its counters.
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.23 08:40:00 -
[289]
I thought of an idea, let's see what you guys think of it. Leave Drakes as they are, but introduce make a new module that's basically a TD for missiles. Nerfs their explosion velocity or something.
Would that work?
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Daergaar
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.23 09:32:00 -
[290]
Of course, the Drake doesn't have to choose between tank and gank. It has another issue like all shield tankers, it has to choose between tank and UTILITY. In small engagements, this is why it's not overpowered.
In large fleet fights, not everyone needs a warp disruptor/scrambler, not everyone needs a web, not everyone needs target painters or tracking disruptors.
Nerfing the shield recharge would only hurt PvE, as the small recharge isn't a big deal in PvP. Now, maybe a good way to nerf the damage projection would be to make Heavy Missile Launchers cost more CPU or Powergrid. Or just flat out reduce the targeting range of the ship so it's forced to fit a sensor booster or two at the expense of tank if you want to hit out that far.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.10.23 09:59:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 22/10/2010 16:16:52
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Some really good opinions here. Remember this is atypical of our usual communication which comes following on from some action or pending change. Here we are experimenting in communication and catalyzing an open debate on a question posed regarding drake popularity and whether it is due to it being imbalanced and gathering opinion on that.
As stated in earlier responses which I see some of you skipped(!), we would never nerf the drake because it used missiles and missiles cause additional load, that would be nonsensical indeed as many note.
It's a good approach. Keep it up. :)
I want to point out that the problem you're seeing (Drake blobs) has nothing at all to do with passive shield tanking and shield recharge, and everything to do with the utility of resist bonuses vs rep bonuses and awesome damage projection at range. I know I've gone over this before, but I want to one more time since I know you're keeping track of these things:
Resist Bonus: - 33% Local Rep Bonus (Requires Cap) - 33% EHP Bonus - 33% Remote Rep Bonus
Rep Bonus: - 37.5% Local Rep Bonus (Requires Cap)
Obviously there's something dramatically askew here given your own (company) admission that players will bring as many players as they can every time they can. And bear in mind that I think that the Drake is the best close range brawling BC too ... but it's not nearly as pronounced as the above topic. You guys have some pretty good game designers and honestly balance is better than it's been in a long time. So... I'm sure you'll figure something out that doesn't nerf the Drake too hard in non-overpowered areas. :)
I am going to ask (pretty please with a cherry on top) that you guys spend a few minutes fixing fittings on frigates and T1 cruisers. There's a lot of ships that are just not really viable ships because their fittings are all jacked up (Navy Slicer, Augorer, Omen, Caracal, etc). Also, if you could do away with the ship tier system I'd <3 you forever. :)
-Liang
what Liang said.
and maybe heavy missiles could use a bit of a range nerf, or maybe boost medium guns
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.23 10:31:00 -
[292]
Originally by: GamTen So everyone who says that the drake's resists are overpowered? The ferox has the same shield resists and bonus per level. Is the ferox overpowered too?
OMG NERF PROPHECY!!!
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Doctor Alban
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Posted - 2010.10.23 13:34:00 -
[293]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: GamTen So everyone who says that the drake's resists are overpowered? The ferox has the same shield resists and bonus per level. Is the ferox overpowered too?
OMG NERF PROPHECY!!!
I got to quote this one since its the solution of all trouble in Eve.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.23 14:55:00 -
[294]
Troll spotted.
Originally by: Aerilis So we all know how everyone says Drakes are OP, but I'd like to bring a new side of this discussion to the forefront--the long range, HML Drake.
I have recently learned (the hard way) that Drakes can dominate long-range battlecruiser combat--check out this fit:
Quote: [Drake, hml] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
Random anti-drake trolling
Thoughts?
You don't pvp in Drakes, obviously.Fury is for Battleship sized targets, or at worst HIGH sig BC's (other Drakes), everyone mostly uses CN Scourge as it has has better expl velocity/radius and decent damage, not to mention almsot no one have everything at 5's.... Also, take that fit and go fight a nano Cane and see what happens.
The most ridiculous thing you said was "it can target paint smaller targets, totally raping frigs and other tackle and making sure the Fury missiles do full damage to all targets" Big Fat Lie.
They nerfed Torps range massively, back in the day, now it's a short range weapon. They nerfed Cruise into uselessness for pvp barring POS shoots. Rails do utterly anemic damage but long range. Heavies are somewhere in between and not much used in LowSuck or Empire, where it's mostly all about the HAMS. Drake is fine, if you get owned by HML Drake with no scram or point then you fail.
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lol internets
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.23 15:38:00 -
[295]
People saying that the Drake is fine are mistaken. No skill is required to fly a Drake so it should be nerfed to a (pretty massive) level to be fair.
You have to be really good at EVE to fly an armor HAC, with the afterburning and micromanaging lasers and orbiting and so on, it's just not the same.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.10.23 15:54:00 -
[296]
Originally by: lol internets People saying that the Drake is fine are mistaken. No skill is required to fly a Drake so it should be nerfed to a (pretty massive) level to be fair.
You have to be really good at EVE to fly an armor HAC, with the afterburning and micromanaging lasers and orbiting and so on, it's just not the same.
And how does that lead you to the conclusion that the Dake needs to be nerfed? HACs are a different ship class; what does the skill requirement for flying them have to do with the capabilities o a BC? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Damar Rocarion
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Posted - 2010.10.23 15:54:00 -
[297]
Originally by: lol internets People saying that the Drake is fine are mistaken. No skill is required to fly a Drake so it should be nerfed to a (pretty massive) level to be fair.
You have to be really good at EVE to fly an armor HAC, with the afterburning and micromanaging lasers and orbiting and so on, it's just not the same.
Quoting bitter old vet from "K" forums:
---------------------------------------------------------- God at last they even think about changing it. nano roam gang ? get drakes guys. LR HAS ? get drakes guys. AHACS ? get drakes guys. Want to roam ? get drakes guys.
Seriously, drake gangs are an insult. It's like saying "Hey, come fight, we have a ship that can just own any HAC you throw at us, but we invest 5 times less money in PvP than you, and we just don't give a **** about ~~fun~~ because we can just spam missiles LOL" ----------------------------------------
To summarise. God forbid that people without 25 million skillpoints should have fun or be able to counter OUR fleet because we have played this game longer and should own any god damn noob that dares to undock in same system as we!
Also, the issue here is probably more to do with laggy enviroments and logistics, not drake.
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.23 16:35:00 -
[298]
So the single Caldari solo/small gang ship is popular. Not suprising since the majority of players are Caldari, huh?
GOD FORBID! NERF THE HELL OUT OF IT, WE CAN'T HAVE THAT!
FFS.
Where the hell was your nerfbat when the nanophaggotry was in full swing for YEARS? And this isnt even close to comparable.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.23 16:43:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank.
This is pure facepalm, Chronotis. Sorry.
As others have stated, the entire point of shield-tanking is that it allows you to choose both gank and tank - at the cost of tackle and ewar.
You seem more concerned by theoretical balance issues - that the Drake finds it easier to fit HMLs than a Hurricane does artillery - rather than the reality. Such as the domination of armour HAC fleets by Zealots, or sniper fleets by the Apocalypse? Seeing Angel ships everywhere? Or carrier fleets only of Archons? Or the complete absence of shield tanks at BS-level or larger? You realise that you're criticising the only case where shields are currently useful in fleet? Yay for diversity... Sort out shield transporter CPU issues, railguns, the Eagle, Scorch and pulse laser tracking, then Drake changes might be slightly more acceptable.
Anyway, the problem isn't the Drake, it's the fleet fights. Get rid of the (super)capital proliferation that has driven BS from the field and you'll see the attractiveness of the Drake for proper fleet work disappear.
Gypsio raises some good points here. Pretty much my opinion on the matter as well. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Prof Fail
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.23 16:45:00 -
[300]
Originally by: Damar Rocarion
People saying that the Drake is fine are mistaken. No skill is required to fly a Drake so it should be nerfed to a (pretty massive) level to be fair.
You have to be really good at EVE to fly an armor HAC, with the afterburning and micromanaging lasers and orbiting and so on, it's just not the same
---------------------------------------------------------- God at last they even think about changing it. nano roam gang ? get drakes guys. LR HAS ? get drakes guys. AHACS ? get drakes guys. Want to roam ? get drakes guys.
Seriously, drake gangs are an insult. It's like saying "Hey, come fight, we have a ship that can just own any HAC you throw at us, but we invest 5 times less money in PvP than you, and we just don't give a **** about ~~fun~~ because we can just spam missiles LOL" ----------------------------------------
This pretty much sums it up. Drakes are just too good. They excel in too many fields. They are to easy to fit (too much pg and cpu), have way too many hp, to much resists and too much range and last but not least to much DPS@range.
You dont even need alot skills to use them. Just compare the amount of skills you need to be a good gunner and compare this to missiles. Think about how much isk and skills are necessary to fly Hacs and compare this to Drakes....and Drakes can pawn Hacs easilie. Just compare HP and DPS of a Drake and a Vagabond. Drake has better resists, far more HPs, more DPS, more range, more locking range...more everything..thats absurd. Since the nanonerf happened theres nothing a Hac can do against a Drake. A 28 million isk lowskill-ship perfoms far better than a 120million tech2 ship. This cant be the right way.
Even with bad missile skills you can put a faction heavy missile in your T1 named launcher and let it fly 60-70km. To be a good missilespammer you dont even need Tech2 launchers and missiles. Try to do the same with guns, you will just fail. For sniping and gunning in general you need T2 guns and T2 ammo. You also need alot gunnery support skills and alot tracking computers/enhancers fitted. Missiles are simply not balanced. The Drake is not balanced.
Drakes are simply too good.....imho they even equal some of the command ships. Current massive Drake proliferation just states this. Theres a reason why nearly everybody uses Drakes.
They need to be nerfed as well as heavy missiles itself. It has never been good for this game if everything can be done in one single ship. Thats just boring game enviroment. Spamming missiles every day...yay
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.23 17:07:00 -
[301]
Lol @ comparing drake and vaga to use as whine fuel.
There are counters, BCs counter cruisers. BS's counter BCs. If you want to counter drakes you should not use cruisers but battleships. And what if BCs dont counter HACs (which they do not too great btw, AB hacs will normally beat drake armies), what should be used? Super carriers? Since battleships definately are not the usual counter against AB hacs.
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Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.23 17:23:00 -
[302]
Just theorycrafting because I'm bored at work here, but what would the consequences of replacing the Drake's kinetic damage bonus with a corresponding RoF bonus be?
I know that the poor TQ hamsters would cry like little babies, but if you disregard from the performance issue, the DPS should stay the same, while the alpha would decrease.
Originally by: CCP Navigator Great story but you probably want this in CAOD so feel free to post there with your main.
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Cpt Tunguska
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Posted - 2010.10.23 17:34:00 -
[303]
Originally by: Furb Killer Lol @ comparing drake and vaga to use as whine fuel.
There are counters, BCs counter cruisers. BS's counter BCs. If you want to counter drakes you should not use cruisers but battleships. And what if BCs dont counter HACs (which they do not too great btw, AB hacs will normally beat drake armies), what should be used? Super carriers? Since battleships definately are not the usual counter against AB hacs.
Where can I read ccp's statement that dumb Drakes are the official counter for HACs? Imho shiny skill-intensive and expensive HACs should be better than than scrubships.
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Damar Rocarion
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Posted - 2010.10.23 17:44:00 -
[304]
Originally by: Cpt Tunguska Where can I read ccp's statement that dumb Drakes are the official counter for HACs? Imho shiny skill-intensive and expensive HACs should be better than than scrubships.
So where has CCP ever said anything being counter to anything and instead let players figure out their own tricks? But I quess it does not matter to you since clearly Blackbird should not be able to tackle vagabond and neither should Lokis die to cheap frigs/dessies because they cost more isk!
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
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Tauni
Caldari Chained Reactions
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Posted - 2010.10.23 17:50:00 -
[305]
Originally by: Illwill Bill Just theorycrafting because I'm bored at work here, but what would the consequences of replacing the Drake's kinetic damage bonus with a corresponding RoF bonus be?
I know that the poor TQ hamsters would cry like little babies, but if you disregard from the performance issue, the DPS should stay the same, while the alpha would decrease.
It would actually improve the PVE capabilities of Drakes in k-space, since you'd no longer be restricted to one damage type to get the bonus. In w-space PVE, there'd be no difference. Similarly, you'd have a lot more flexibility in PVP, since it's not just CN Scourge anymore.
Ammo use would go up, but that's not a huge factor.
But yes, you would have the same dps and less alpha.
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lol internets
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.23 17:57:00 -
[306]
How can you be so dumb.
ROF != raw damage bonus /o\
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Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.23 18:29:00 -
[307]
Edited by: Illwill Bill on 23/10/2010 18:33:01 T2 ships are more specialized variants of their T1 counterparts. This means they are intended for one specific role, while T1 ships can often be more versatile.
Frigates are the basic ship class in Eve. There's plenty of them, and they can be used in a myriad of ways. The specialized variants include interceptors, designed for chasing down and tackling other targets, assault frigates, which are supposedly small assault craft (srsly, CCP, fix those instead!), stealth bombers, which are designed for surprise attacks, as well as several other types.
A destroyer is a ship class specifically intended to provide anti-frigate support for larger vessels, as well as hunting down and terminating said frigates on their own.
This means that there is not really anything that says that an interceptor should be able to blow a destroyer, just because said interceptor is a T2 vessel. After all, the destroyer is designed for fighting small, fast targets. The situation is a bit different when the destroyer is facing the considerably toughter assault frigates. Those are made for being tougher, and to be more powerful than the other frigates (at least I think that's what CCP originally intended).
If we bring the scales up a notch, we can see that cruisers, just like frigates, come in different colours and flavours. The example that often mentioned in this thread is the heavy assault cruisers. Judging from the name, they are the evil cruiser-editions of the assault frigates; faster, harder, and packing a nasty punch. It's no wonder that AB-HAC's is the HAC FOTM.
Battlecruisers, on the other hand, is an evolution of the cruisers, and as the name implies they are combat ships. Just like destroyers, they use the same size of weapons as their smaller siblings, and they have many more of them. This basically means that the battlecruisers will do full damage to cruiser-sized targets, while doing considerably more damage than the cruisers thanks to the fact that they have more weaponry.
Thus, battlecruisers are intended to do full damage against cruiser-sized targets. Additionally, their larger size makes them much more durable than any cruiser. Yes, they are actually supposed to defeat most cruisers, including the T2 variants. HAC's are a possible exception, as they are supposed to be tougher and meaner than other cruisers. However, as I see it, that doesn't mean they always have to out-gun and out-last all other ships smaller than a battleship.
Let's face it: The battlecruisers are the second-most powerful sub-capital ship class in the game. This means that a T2 cruiser doesn'thave to win every 1v1 against one.
So please, stop using the "Waaaah, I trained skills for years and now the nubs still win" arguments. I expected a lot more from PL.
Now the matter at hand is if the Drake is overpowered compared to other battlecruisers. I personally don't think so, but considering this is an interwebs srsbznz forum, there is obvioulsy people who will disagree.
But seriously, let's keep the discussion about battlecruisers.
Edit @ Monkey: I am maintaining my opinion regarding the Drakes DPS, which I don't find overpowered.
The suggestion to trade alpha for RoF was just that: A way to reduce the alpha, making the ship less interesting for fleets, while maintaining the carebear's beloved DPS for PvE.
Originally by: CCP Navigator Great story but you probably want this in CAOD so feel free to post there with your main.
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Larkonis Trassler
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.23 18:46:00 -
[308]
I don't see anything wrong with Drakes as such. They are low cost, low entry requirement, simple to fly and more than anything FUN.
Heavy missiles could do with a bit of a nerf though to both damage and range for Furies.
Forgive my EFT warrioring but a Drake with 3 damage mods does 462 DPS out to 75km with it's CLOSE range T2 ammo wheras an artycane/beamharb with 3 damage mods and 2 TEs can manage 486/534 dps at 9.7+36/7.5+10 respectively and have to worry about tracking and all that jazz (you can argue about sig/explosion radius but the missiles will always hit and always do at least some damage, in fact with max skills furies still have a velocity/radius of 145/161 so will still hit most cruisers for full damage).
The numbers become more depressing when LR T2 ammo for the turrets is used if the cane/harb try to close the range gap getting 278@70+36 and 305@54+10.
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Nvee
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Posted - 2010.10.23 19:35:00 -
[309]
Dramiel..... Aeon.... Vagabond.... just saying...
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Quesa
D00M. Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.10.23 19:52:00 -
[310]
Originally by: Nvee Dramiel..... Aeon.... Vagabond.... just saying...
Yes, lets just homogenize the game where everything has an equal chance against everything else. We'll start by changing all ship bonuses to be the same in each of their hull size class and work from there.
Brilliant post.
I had planned on using them to fix fleet lag but was talked out of it. -CCP Zulu |
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lol internets
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.23 20:09:00 -
[311]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler I don't see anything wrong with Drakes as such. They are low cost, low entry requirement, simple to fly and more than anything FUN.
Heavy missiles could do with a bit of a nerf though to both damage and range for Furies.
Forgive my EFT warrioring but a Drake with 3 damage mods does 462 DPS out to 75km with it's CLOSE range T2 ammo wheras an artycane/beamharb with 3 damage mods and 2 TEs can manage 486/534 dps at 9.7+36/7.5+10 respectively and have to worry about tracking and all that jazz (you can argue about sig/explosion radius but the missiles will always hit and always do at least some damage, in fact with max skills furies still have a velocity/radius of 145/161 so will still hit most cruisers for full damage).
The numbers become more depressing when LR T2 ammo for the turrets is used if the cane/harb try to close the range gap getting 278@70+36 and 305@54+10.
Sorry, but we don't take kindly to your law-bending kind around here.
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The 3of5
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Posted - 2010.10.23 20:32:00 -
[312]
Originally by: OT Smithers
Originally by: Shade Millith Edited by: Shade Millith on 22/10/2010 11:40:29 No
Caldari have a good ship finally for PVP, you even say yourself that one by itself isn't OP
Quote: Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced
Don't screw over small gang's/soloer that use drakes.
Why don't you go nerf amarr? I mean Amarr BS's are the most popular for BS gangs and zealots are the ship of choice for A-HAC gangs.
Edit: How about you buff raven/rokh so they can fit into BS gangs?
Amaar don't fire missiles.
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Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.23 20:41:00 -
[313]
Yes, I do approve boosting the Sac by making it's bonuses apply to HML's as well.
Originally by: CCP Navigator Great story but you probably want this in CAOD so feel free to post there with your main.
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Captain Mung
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Posted - 2010.10.23 20:41:00 -
[314]
Originally by: Noemi Nagano Excellent point. 1on1 HACs are not meant to be able to beat their BC counterparts easily. So there is no reason a Drake fleet should NOT be able to kill an AHAC fleet. Else you would need to nerf all BCs or buff all HACs.
Problem is the lag - fix it and dont nerf a well balanced ship, which still is the only one useful for Caldari in fleet COMBAT.
(Or do you want to fix Cruise Missiles so they are able to hit AHACs good enough ;) )
If that's the case, then a Harb gang, or a Myrm gang, or a Cane gang should be able to accomplish similar results and be used just as often to counter AHAC fleets. The problem is they can't and are not.
IMO the Cerb should have states like the Drake does now, seeing as the Cerb is more than double the cost but doesn't really do any better than the Drake.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.23 20:49:00 -
[315]
Edited by: Soporo on 23/10/2010 20:51:09
Quote: This is pure facepalm, Chronotis[/b]. Sorry.
As others have stated, the entire point of shield-tanking is that it allows you to choose both gank and tank - at the cost of tackle and ewar.
You seem more concerned by theoretical balance issues - that the Drake finds it easier to fit HMLs than a Hurricane does artillery - rather than the reality. Such as the domination of armour HAC fleets by Zealots, or sniper fleets by the Apocalypse? Seeing Angel ships everywhere? Or carrier fleets only of Archons? Or the complete absence of shield tanks at BS-level or larger? You realise that you're criticising the only case where shields are currently useful in fleet? Yay for diversity... Sort out shield transporter CPU issues, railguns, the Eagle, Scorch and pulse laser tracking, then Drake changes might be slightly more acceptable.
Anyway, the problem isn't the Drake, it's the fleet fights. Get rid of the (super)capital proliferation that has driven BS from the field and you'll see the attractiveness of the Drake for proper fleet work disappear.
Gypsio raises some good points here. Pretty much my opinion on the matter as well.
Drake as it is now is fine, its basically one of the only caldari T1 ships worth taking out to PVP these days. This is also a reason many caldari players use it, because its the only decent choice for bigger gangs.
Fixing Rail guns, Ferox, Eagle, shield RR (just look at the sad state of capital fleets and capital RR) would go a long way to make other caldari ships actually useful (other then the Falcon and Rook).
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.23 20:55:00 -
[316]
Most peeps crying Drakes are OP`d were the same Idiots who said "it could never PVP" since it came out and "Anyone who PVP`s in a Drake is an idiot"
Lol its hillarious finally the idiots of Eve realize a ships potential that hasn`t changed since QR and all the sudden its OP`d.
If its OP`d you morons it has been since 2 Years ago, why now?
Because now your getting pwned by the simpletons ship that you said sucked and are embarrassed?
So you get Pwned by a ship that sucked then and hasnt changed so you want a nerf? To the only viable fleet Ship Cald has, you are all morons.
And to whoever said HM`s need Nerf is also a Moron, Caracal is already underpowered, Cerb in+70km fights is useless, So you want to nerf a funtional Weapon that is balanced?
These are also the same morons that said QR was a nerf to HML`s and the same peeps who laughed at peeps using HML Drakes...Lol how the idiots tables have turned.
-------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.23 21:10:00 -
[317]
Actually, balancing HML's might actually be a good idea, as long as HAM's are revisited at the same time. If they are converted into a proper close-range weapon, and have their fitting requirements adjusted, then it might just work.
On the other hand, that might make the Drake a close-range monster.
Originally by: CCP Navigator Great story but you probably want this in CAOD so feel free to post there with your main.
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TehFailGuy
|
Posted - 2010.10.23 21:24:00 -
[318]
Originally by: Aerilis So we all know how everyone says Drakes are OP, but I'd like to bring a new side of this discussion to the forefront--the long range, HML Drake.
I have recently learned (the hard way) that Drakes can dominate long-range battlecruiser combat--check out this fit:
Quote: [Drake, hml] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
This setup does 561 DPS with drones (60km) and 462 DPS all the way out to its locking range (75km) On top of this incredible DPS, it has a ridiculous 83k EHP and it can target paint smaller targets, totally raping frigs and other tackle and making sure the Fury missiles do full damage to all targets. Try to make any ships smaller than a BS come even close to these stats... you simply can't. I don't have the skills for a Drake, so I tried to counter with beam Harbs, arty Hurricanes, even rail Feroxes. Play with EFT, see how pathetic these setups are for yourself compared to the Drake. Sure the missiles take a few seconds to hit their target, but the stats are simply ridiculous...
Thoughts?
Kill them with Amarr BS?
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Tub Chil
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Posted - 2010.10.23 22:15:00 -
[319]
introduce missile disruptors?
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.23 22:16:00 -
[320]
Originally by: Acru Si
Solo or in small gangs drakes are not much of a threat (caldari ship after all). Its when they reach critical mass numbers and get logistics support(in medium-big fleets) that they begin to outperform other battlecruisers.
This would apply to any ship in the game. You get 50 Scorpions flying together in a coordinated blob, they'll shut down any other gang of equivalent size. You get 50 Arty Canes together, and they'll alpha everything else on the field. This all boils down to one characteristic: There are more Drake-capable BC pilots in the game than any other BC.
IMO there is one very conspicuous solution to large Drake fleets, but there aren't enough people willing to think out of the FOTM box to make it happen...
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Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.23 22:34:00 -
[321]
You surely can't be suggesting that people should use defenders? I mean, if the Drakes alone cause lag, then someone spamming defenders as well, would be TQ armageddon.
Originally by: CCP Navigator Great story but you probably want this in CAOD so feel free to post there with your main.
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.23 22:36:00 -
[322]
CCP would never have initiated this nonsense if the decision had noit already been made -- the Drake is gonna be nerfed and nerfed HARD. CCP gave the reason: they do not want missile spam in fleet PvP.
For Caldari pilots, and new players considering Caldari, this means that unless they are exclusively interested in PvE they would be fools to stick with it. Sad, but there it is. Caldari is now officially the gimped PvE race, and by design.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.23 23:02:00 -
[323]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months...
The Drake hasn't changed in the last six months. If people are using Drake blobs now, when they weren't six months ago, maybe you should look at what actually has changed in the past six months?
Such as BS fleets being obsoleted by Zealot/Guardian fleets? Or supercarrier fleets? Or logistics being unable to cope with the delayed missile damage because of laaaaaag?
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.23 23:12:00 -
[324]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 23/10/2010 23:15:54
Quote: You get 50 Arty Canes together...
Just to emphasise the point he was making, 50 artycanes with the setup my corp uses is an alpha of 110,000 at 70km.
Which hits instantly.
Just saying. Any guesses what the new blob-battlecruiser will be if the Drake gets a nerf? _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
shimarri
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Posted - 2010.10.23 23:22:00 -
[325]
this is confusing, about 8 months ago i joined GC with an alt, tried for 2 weeks to get in a fleet with my drake and no fc wanted me in their fleet so i left the corp. WTF?
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I likegirls
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.23 23:45:00 -
[326]
Originally by: shimarri this is confusing, about 8 months ago i joined GC with an alt, tried for 2 weeks to get in a fleet with my drake and no fc wanted me in their fleet so i left the corp. WTF?
My time line is a little bit fuzzy over the years, but I think that is in the ballpark of when GC was deployed against the North. They were probably doing battleships and capitals mostly. Drakes are not desired in armor bs/hac fleets or in cap fleets.
GC had a lot of drake army fleets for roams though.
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Evengard
Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2010.10.24 00:32:00 -
[327]
Yes, currently drake is a bit overpowered, comparing to other battlecruisers. But there is few moments that should taking in account.
1) Missiles, they need to be changed. 2) CCP. They like to do balance, by nerfing ships into stone age, so noone want to fly them anymore.
IMO drakes resist bonus should be changed to something else (like missile velocity\percision) ________________ Recon and Intercept
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Liz Viscious
Caldari The Order of Fish and Chips
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Posted - 2010.10.24 00:39:00 -
[328]
All i'd like to know is... what's caldari going to use instead? I'm not the intelligent fleet veteran here, but the vast majority of what I see in combat records, posts on the forums, pvp strategy articles, and player blogs is that caldari right now = drake for most intents and purposes.
What a I missing, if anything? Is the future of caldari post drake nerf that dismal? Should I be cross training now to head off the nerf?
/regrets focusing her training on shield tanking and missile launchers
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.10.24 01:01:00 -
[329]
Originally by: Cpt Tunguska
Originally by: Furb Killer Lol @ comparing drake and vaga to use as whine fuel.
There are counters, BCs counter cruisers. BS's counter BCs. If you want to counter drakes you should not use cruisers but battleships. And what if BCs dont counter HACs (which they do not too great btw, AB hacs will normally beat drake armies), what should be used? Super carriers? Since battleships definately are not the usual counter against AB hacs.
Where can I read ccp's statement that dumb Drakes are the official counter for HACs? Imho shiny skill-intensive and expensive HACs should be better than than scrubships.
As I've said before, attacking a BC in a HAC is generally a suicide charge 1v1, why would it be different in a 50v50 gang?
Hell, there was a huge fleet fight last night. BS and BC's. You know what was the most common BS by far? Amarr. How about we nerf the Amarr BS's since they're so popular in BS gangs? Man, Dram's are a class above nearly all other frigates, and are the fastest possible frigate, probably could look at that. ------------------------
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Captain Sweatervest
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Posted - 2010.10.24 01:55:00 -
[330]
Originally by: Liz Viscious /regrets focusing her training on shield tanking and missile launchers
You clearly missed the proper history lesson prior to training (presumably for pvp)...
Shield tanking has not been anything but sub-optimal and more on the down-right bad side for ages. Similarly, missiles in general were never sought after due to the delay before damage is applied (with enough ships shooting at one target, chances are your missiles will not get there before it explodes or repping is applied) so it's an inferior blitz damage system.
I would advise you to get some armor tanking skills and gunnery or look into stealth bombers.
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Ogogov
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.10.24 02:10:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Captain Sweatervest
Originally by: Liz Viscious /regrets focusing her training on shield tanking and missile launchers
You clearly missed the proper history lesson prior to training (presumably for pvp)...
Shield tanking has not been anything but sub-optimal and more on the down-right bad side for ages. Similarly, missiles in general were never sought after due to the delay before damage is applied (with enough ships shooting at one target, chances are your missiles will not get there before it explodes or repping is applied) so it's an inferior blitz damage system.
I would advise you to get some armor tanking skills and gunnery or look into stealth bombers.
Active armor tanking and hybrids would like a word with you in the corner...
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.24 02:26:00 -
[332]
Originally by: Shade Millith
Originally by: Cpt Tunguska
Originally by: Furb Killer Lol @ comparing drake and vaga to use as whine fuel.
There are counters, BCs counter cruisers. BS's counter BCs. If you want to counter drakes you should not use cruisers but battleships. And what if BCs dont counter HACs (which they do not too great btw, AB hacs will normally beat drake armies), what should be used? Super carriers? Since battleships definately are not the usual counter against AB hacs.
Where can I read ccp's statement that dumb Drakes are the official counter for HACs? Imho shiny skill-intensive and expensive HACs should be better than than scrubships.
As I've said before, attacking a BC in a HAC is generally a suicide charge 1v1, why would it be different in a 50v50 gang?
Hell, there was a huge fleet fight last night. BS and BC's. You know what was the most common BS by far? Amarr. How about we nerf the Amarr BS's since they're so popular in BS gangs? Man, Dram's are a class above nearly all other frigates, and are the fastest possible frigate, probably could look at that.
They are not nerfing the Drake for balance. They are nerfing it to remove missile spam from fleet battles.
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Captain Sweatervest
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Posted - 2010.10.24 02:47:00 -
[333]
Originally by: Ogogov
Originally by: Captain Sweatervest
Originally by: Liz Viscious /regrets focusing her training on shield tanking and missile launchers
You clearly missed the proper history lesson prior to training (presumably for pvp)...
Shield tanking has not been anything but sub-optimal and more on the down-right bad side for ages. Similarly, missiles in general were never sought after due to the delay before damage is applied (with enough ships shooting at one target, chances are your missiles will not get there before it explodes or repping is applied) so it's an inferior blitz damage system.
I would advise you to get some armor tanking skills and gunnery or look into stealth bombers.
Active armor tanking and hybrids would like a word with you in the corner...
Hybrids are also a fail weapon system, but at least you can get into the armor fleet and pretend to do something rather than train up a whole new line of ships and support skills to become useful.
Not that gallente are in a better position overall, but i'd say in fleets w/o the drake gallente will have a leg up. Caldari are not allowed in (armor) bs fleets except for the odd scorp and they've got nothing agile enough to keep up with a swift minmatar shield gang.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.24 04:02:00 -
[334]
Originally by: Illwill Bill You surely can't be suggesting that people should use defenders? I mean, if the Drakes alone cause lag, then someone spamming defenders as well, would be TQ armageddon.
Actually, no. Defenders as they currently work in-game fail, in my testing, to be a viable counter to incoming missile damage. Given the huge sig and slow speed of the typical Drake PvP fit, and its extremely conspicuous EM hole, all you need is a ship that can spew large alpha, pure EM damage at ranges greater than 80km... Seems to me there's probably almost as many people that can fly it as there are Drake pilots... Of course, then CCP will have to nerf another ship that heretofore has been maligned as a useless PvP ship...
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Zacktar
Gallente Sidereus Gallimaufry
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Posted - 2010.10.24 04:19:00 -
[335]
Edited by: Zacktar on 24/10/2010 04:21:53 While this is a hotly contested topic I'm going to throw a "thinking out loud" time line from when I first started paying Eve. I created this character and trained straight to a Drake. I know someone that played Eve before I started. It was the carebear thing. Train in to a Drake run lvl 4 missions etc... This was Nov. 2008
It wasn't long after that the missile nerf came. People QQ how missiles sucked and were made useless for pvp and so on. Prior to this nerf missiles were used a lot, no? Cruise Ravens obliterating targets at range. Frigates insta-popping at 180km. While I wasn't doing the pvp thing prior to this missile nerf nor for some time after it would it be fair to say that missiles were used a lot in pvp with less lag going back in time? I hear old timers talking about huge fleet battles with no lag back in the day.
As time goes on lag becomes more and more with less use of missiles because of the nerf. CCP adds their fancy Ramsan and all this talk about reducing lag yadayadayada. And now there's this fancy uber chilled room where all the servers are blahblahblah.
It appears to me that the use of missiles has decreased over time but lag has increased. Until reasonably lately where the use of the Drake for pvp has become popular among the many many pokes from people laughing others out of the constellation for using it for pvp. It's useless. There's a reason it's saved till last to kill etc... Now all of a sudden the Drake is a problem.
The point is perhaps CCP should improve the machinery that drives this game rather than compensating for fail by nerfing what is a balanced ship already. If servers can't handle missile spam and it causes lag, ummm idk, maybe fix the servers. Every one knows that if this nerf happens then people will adapt and over come and some other ship or some other tactic will be born or substituted and then the "nerf" that will be on again. Eve has grown to where it's a Lamborghini body built for speed but has a Toyota Prius motor under the hood. It's time to get your hardware up to speed CCP. IMO.
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KwarK uK
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Posted - 2010.10.24 04:39:00 -
[336]
The popularity of the drake is a reflection of how utterly useless every other caldari ship. Caldari are almost unplayable pvp at the moment, the drake is all we have. It's not popular because it's broken, it's popular because everything else is.
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Captain Sweatervest
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Posted - 2010.10.24 05:24:00 -
[337]
Originally by: KwarK uK The popularity of the drake is a reflection of how utterly useless every other caldari ship. Caldari are almost unplayable pvp at the moment, the drake is all we have. It's not popular because it's broken, it's popular because everything else is.
This is the part where the gallente poster tells you that ravens are fleet ships, rokh is in all ways superior to the mega, and he wants to fly his arazu but the falcon pilot stoled it.
But hey, we have the tengu for a fleet combat ship, who needs isk and skillpoints anyway?
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.10.24 05:39:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Kail Storm And to whoever said HM`s need Nerf is also a Moron, Caracal is already underpowered, Cerb in+70km fights is useless, So you want to nerf a funtional Weapon that is balanced?
These are also the same morons that said QR was a nerf to HML`s and the same peeps who laughed at peeps using HML Drakes...Lol how the idiots tables have turned.
I stand by my nerf heavy missile line. caracal has its own problems, it and the cerb could probably use a boost. heavy missiles are just too long range and have too good damage projection imo. I will agree that flight time is an issue, and I have been a fan of boost flight speed and nerf flight time for a while. drakes are pretty much fine, I just think heavy missiles bring a bit too much to the table.
and qr was a huge nerf to heavy missiles, I mean doing 0 damage to anything at speed was fantastic </scarcasm> +
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.10.24 07:10:00 -
[339]
Originally by: Cpt Tunguska
Where can I read ccp's statement that dumb Drakes are the official counter for HACs? Imho shiny skill-intensive and expensive HACs should be better than than scrubships.
HACs are better. In an equal numbered fight between Drakes and AHACS, the Drakes are going to have a bad day, unless everyone is lagged out. If that isn't so in your case, you might need to look in the mirror to find the "scrub". Don't care how much isk or how many skillpoints you have.
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.10.24 07:16:00 -
[340]
Edited by: davet517 on 24/10/2010 07:25:34
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
I stand by my nerf heavy missile line. caracal has its own problems, it and the cerb could probably use a boost. heavy missiles are just too long range and have too good damage projection imo. I will agree that flight time is an issue, and I have been a fan of boost flight speed and nerf flight time for a while. drakes are pretty much fine, I just think heavy missiles bring a bit too much to the table.
and qr was a huge nerf to heavy missiles, I mean doing 0 damage to anything at speed was fantastic </scarcasm> +
I don't think you want to go nerfing a weapon system because of what happens when you get 300 of them together. What happens in a 20 on 20 fight between drakes and sniper hacs? Drakes and AHACs? Hell, Drakes and speed HACS (Ever watched a Vaga flat outrun a heavy missle, even after the nano nerf?). Drakes and Heavys are fine. Blobs could use a nerf, but they haven't figured out how to do that yet.
There are underlying causes for the proliferation of Drakes, and most of them have nothing to do with Drakes. Nobody wants to deploy BS because of AHACs. Nobody wants to deploy Dreads and Carriers because of SCs. What's left, that everyone just so happens to be able to fly? Yep. Drakes Nerfing them or Heavies beause of it is just dumb.
Edit: But, it's the brand of dumb that CCP is famous for, so I'd say it's likely.
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Atius Tirawa
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.10.24 08:22:00 -
[341]
no they are fine.
if missles are causing lag - then lag is the problem - not drakes. -----------
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.24 09:05:00 -
[342]
Originally by: OT Smithers They are not nerfing the Drake for balance. They are nerfing it to remove missile spam from fleet battles.
It's like "Planes crushing, so that's the sky problems, not our planes"
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Tub Chil
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Posted - 2010.10.24 09:32:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Soporo Edited by: Soporo on 23/10/2010 20:51:09
Quote: This is pure facepalm, Chronotis[/b]. Sorry.
As others have stated, the entire point of shield-tanking is that it allows you to choose both gank and tank - at the cost of tackle and ewar.
You seem more concerned by theoretical balance issues - that the Drake finds it easier to fit HMLs than a Hurricane does artillery - rather than the reality. Such as the domination of armour HAC fleets by Zealots, or sniper fleets by the Apocalypse? Seeing Angel ships everywhere? Or carrier fleets only of Archons? Or the complete absence of shield tanks at BS-level or larger? You realise that you're criticising the only case where shields are currently useful in fleet? Yay for diversity... Sort out shield transporter CPU issues, railguns, the Eagle, Scorch and pulse laser tracking, then Drake changes might be slightly more acceptable.
Anyway, the problem isn't the Drake, it's the fleet fights. Get rid of the (super)capital proliferation that has driven BS from the field and you'll see the attractiveness of the Drake for proper fleet work disappear.
Gypsio raises some good points here. Pretty much my opinion on the matter as well.
Drake as it is now is fine, its basically one of the only caldari T1 ships worth taking out to PVP these days. This is also a reason many caldari players use it, because its the only decent choice for bigger gangs.
Fixing Rail guns, Ferox, Eagle, shield RR (just look at the sad state of capital fleets and capital RR) would go a long way to make other caldari ships actually useful (other then the Falcon and Rook).
That's too hard let's just break THE ONLY usable for pvp caldari ship
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Delichon
Armored Saints
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Posted - 2010.10.24 09:57:00 -
[344]
Dear CCP, As we see a missles and missile related ships being subjected to rebalancing (Hawk, Drake, rockets), I would sudgest that you look into possibility of adding tiers to missle launchers like the turrets.
It might be too hard to balance out damage vs PG/CPU for all ships using missiles, when you have 1 close-range missile launcher and 1 long-range per class, but it might become much easier when you would consider having two tiers - like Ammar pulse lasers or Minmatar artillery.
From the fitting and damage POW, I would say that - Rockets need a higher tier (more damage/higher fitting reqs), - HAM need a lower tier I can see multiple uses for these right away (HAM Cerberus/Nighthawk, Malediction/Vengence love - just among other things) As for other launchers - I am not sure, so I would keep it to myself.
That is, of course, before rebalancing all of them (so rebalanced Tier 2 Heavy missiles might have higher fitting requirements and same damage compared to current Heavy missiles - with Tier 1 Heavy missiles being correspondingly lower fitting, lower damage)
Regards, Deli ------------------------------------------ "Russian is an unusual language if you're not used to it. It is like speaking to angry aliens from the planet of Murder or something" Nick Breckon |
Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.24 10:03:00 -
[345]
Leave the Drake alone, it's fine. Problem is the CCP, who screwed up missile combat. Why the poor Drake must pay for your buggy algorithms and procedures? Maybe you should seek the way to reduce lags by recoding missile combat instead of killing the last ship relying on it in PVP?
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.24 10:05:00 -
[346]
Every few months, we see some group or other create a new fleet doctrine, and suddenly it's OMG EVE IS RUINED CCP THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT. And yet oddly, no mechanics have actually changed.
Who remembers when Sniper HACs made everything else obsolete?
Who remembers when RR BS beat everything?
Who remembers when bomber fleets made MS obsolete?
Who remembers when AHACs beat everything smaller than a super cap?
Now Drake Fleets walk the other and all other fleets must submit or perish!
Except yeah, as of last night, not so much. Battle report by our own Dear Leader, Sister Bliss reposted from last night:
"Epic fights just ended in UD-V and TSG- between INIT./DT and -A-/SE/Coven/ROL/En Garde/Vera Cruz/etc. Numbers were approx 130 INIT. flying FIREWALL BS, 120 DT in Drakes vs. 300 Angry Drake Mob (ADM) and 100 ROL in BS.
Hostiles reffed AZN station into 2nd cycle before we could get there, and managed to cut us off in IV-, forming up in UD-V on our in-gate to block our way. We called DT to come and assist before we jumped into UD-V. Local was around 600 as the fight started. We setup just off the in-gate and the fight was on, though lag was pretty bad as you would expect to begin with. Despite that, we were managing reps ok on manual cycle. DT got bubbled off gate and took a load of heat, getting pretty much wiped out. Hostiles then turned up all the heat on us, but FIREWALL kept us all safe and we were happily melting BS, Command Ships and Drakes as fast as CCP would allow. After a while with no losses on our side, hostiles warped off to leave us to loot.
Then CCP resets the node >.< and after frantic relogging in, we find ourselves in middle of 300 remaining hostiles, trying to get fleet and chains up and running and so on. We jump out of system and lose a handful of ppl who get bubbled/stuck jumping. Hostiles then make a beeline for TSG- with us chasing and picking off stragglers. We get to the TSG- gate with 112 INIT. and 50 DT survivors, with 300 hostiles setup on the other side. We make a turn for home so hostiles warp to TSG- station before we bumrush back and jump into system as ADM lands on gate. 2nd round fight starts with the TSG- node working pretty well. A Burn Eden sniping Mach/Nightmare gang is also off gate doing great job trying to insta our stuff (shakes fist). Nevertheless, some hero repping by the logi crew keeps ppl alive. DT manage to get to station and reship before coming back to gate to assist us before hostiles warp off and make a runner.
We then killed the SBU's and went home :-D
Full killstats I guess will be in tomorrow, though it looks like we killed approx 215 for 13 BS and a few Logi losses on the INIT. side.
UDV- http://init.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=7880269 TSG- http://init.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=7880492
Great fights all round, hope everyone had fun o7
SB
Ps. Not sure why the ROL BS are showing as losses on our side."
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Imiarr Timshae
Caldari Funny Men In Funny Hats
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Posted - 2010.10.24 10:13:00 -
[347]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis we rarely intervene with emergent strategies
-----
Originally by: GM Horse
Remember kids, both meth and macro use are Really Quite Bad Things.
Originally by: CCP Shadow Tragic smelting accidents.
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Ker'Tesh Tarir
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Posted - 2010.10.24 10:49:00 -
[348]
Going through this post I have seen alot of arguements, but really the biggest thing that alot of people seem to forget, is that yes the drake gets a bonus, but its kenetic. Of all the types of damage dealt, it has the highest base resistance, making it probably the worst dmg to be dealt, especially to gallente or amarr t2.
The bonus helps even it out, but an em hm drake on shield vs a ken hm drake on shiled, they do about the same after resistances. While missiles do one dmg type and can be switched out to fit for another dmg type, theres a 10 second waiting period OUTSIDE of your cycle time for you to do that. in a drake the best USED cycle time was about 8 seconds. no implants. Which means you have 18 second waiting period between reloads before you can fire ur misslies which have to travel AGAIN to your target. Missiles are useful but not in the 5 minuet fights on a gate that happen more often that large lag fest blob fights. They are extremely useful in fleet fights, look at the lore, Caldari excel at range combat. It would make sence, rhey are gonna have bc that have good range. Ferox can hit at about 30km with rails and antimatter, for most moving fleets, thatÆs perfect range from a gate.
Drakes are nice, and can be useful, but they donÆt cross train well. ItÆs a straight missile boat and caldari are the only ones that really have those, aside from the 3 the amarr have. You have to train a different turret set of skills for the remaining 3 races, giving drakes a definite niche area if you were to fly one.
The caldari specialize in range, gallente in drones, amarr in armor, and minmatar in speed. Gallente get massive drone holds and can do ridiculous dps with drones, amarr can tank better in armor than almost anyone else, and minmatar the the premier to use for pvp due to speed. To match that caldari have the range which enables them to hit at further ranges, but with drawbacks: shield tanking, bigger sig radius, slower ships, less maneuverable, lower dps. Rails donÆt give the best dps, but I will take their range over the other turrets any day of the week.
Drake is op? How a bout a 15km blaster domi with heavy drones? Use t1 guns and drones and t2 dmg mods, gets about 800 dps at 15km. Melts anything within range, any gate camp and your targets are dead. And thas with moderate skills, do all level 5 and it skyrockets especially with t2 weapons and drones. And domis are cheap now, making it just as easy to buy and use as the drake. More so as u donÆt need the bc skill to fly it.
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K'racker
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.10.24 12:44:00 -
[349]
are ccp measuring the load caused by the large drake fleets with grouped, or ungrouped, missiles?
if fleet lag is so bad, that players have to ungroup weapons to get them to function, that's more of a symptom of poor server performance, than a cause.
@ the fit in the op. that fit omni tanks ~150 dps before gang bonus, and deals just over 400 dps. you really think that's overpowered?
(the op is disregarding target painter falloff, claiming fury do full damage out to lock range. a more realistic fit has slightly less ehp, and would use faction ammo.)
drake's not overpowered, it's just having it's 15 minutes, and some players are upset there's finally a counter to amarr pulse/scorch owning anything out to mid range. ccp would be laughing at the op for being too dumb to kill the tackle and warp out, if such fleets weren't highlighting the shortcomings of their (ccp) hardware.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.24 12:48:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Ker'Tesh Tarir Drake is op? How a bout a 15km blaster domi with heavy drones? Use t1 guns and drones and t2 dmg mods, gets about 800 dps at 15km. Melts anything within range, any gate camp and your targets are dead. And thas with moderate skills, do all level 5 and it skyrockets especially with t2 weapons and drones. And domis are cheap now, making it just as easy to buy and use as the drake. More so as u donÆt need the bc skill to fly it.
OPness isn't the reason, Drake is fine. Seems like CCP gonna nerf it to junk because they want to decrease the ship popularity in fleet battles, where due to poor missile realization missiles fired by multiple drakes cause lags. Bye-bye, the only good caldari ship.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.24 13:05:00 -
[351]
So I assume that after all these guys that are wanting to bring the Drake's fleet BC performance down to that of the Prophecy get their way, they will be joining in my campaign to, oh I dunno, reduce the Vagabond's fast HAC performance down to that of the Eagle? And reduce the Abaddon's buffer tank-and-gank down to the Maelstrom's?. And of course slowing down and increasing the Typhoon so it's as fat and slow as a Scorpion is just a no-brainer. Let's not forget slowing down and reducing the fittings on the Sabre to the same as the Eris as well.
As for the Rifter? Well, we'd better just go ahead and delete that.
I trust I will have your full support in the long overdue reform of the various races ship class options to be equal in all combat roles. For fairness. For equality. For a more homogeneous EVE. As long as one race has one ship that better than any other's race at something, WE WILL NOT REST!
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.24 13:10:00 -
[352]
Sniper HACs are one thing drakes can not hit at all, so nerf sniper HAC range or boost drake range.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.24 13:19:00 -
[353]
What about replacing current object-missiles with delayed damage+video effect, since we don't have unguided missiles?
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Mord Fiddle
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Posted - 2010.10.24 16:09:00 -
[354]
Perhaps the Zealot, the rising popularity of which caused the rising popularity of the Drake in response, should be nerfed as well.
http://fiddlersedge.blogspot.com/2010/10/nerfing-drake.html
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.24 16:11:00 -
[355]
Originally by: OT Smithers CCP would never have initiated this nonsense if the decision had noit already been made -- the Drake is gonna be nerfed and nerfed HARD. CCP gave the reason: they do not want missile spam in fleet PvP.
No need to nerf the Drake. Just make missiles do zero damage against other players. Problem of missile spam in fleet PvP solved!
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.24 17:08:00 -
[356]
If CPP don't want missile spam - they shouldn't have made missiles in first place!
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lol internets
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.24 17:39:00 -
[357]
All this crying over the Drake getting nerfed at last really shows who are using it: people with no skill whatsoever in EVE.
It's obvious that nobody who is actually skillful at this game flies one, so nerfing them really doesn't do any harm.
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MadMax RuS
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
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Posted - 2010.10.24 18:10:00 -
[358]
Originally by: Aerilis
This setup does 561 DPS with drones (60km) and 462 DPS all the way out to its locking range (75km) On top of this incredible DPS, it has a ridiculous 83k EHP and it can target paint smaller targets, totally raping frigs and other tackle and making sure the Fury missiles do full damage to all targets. Try to make any ships smaller than a BS come even close to these stats... you simply can't. I don't have the skills for a Drake, so I tried to counter with beam Harbs, arty Hurricanes, even rail Feroxes. Play with EFT, see how pathetic these setups are for yourself compared to the Drake. Sure the missiles take a few seconds to hit their target, but the stats are simply ridiculous...
Subliminal message received! Seriously, get out from my eve.
561 DPS with drones (60km): Train the ew drone interfacing skill to lvl 5, kekekekeke. totally raping frigs: TOTALLY RAPING, right I don't have the skills for a Drake: oh god -------
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Mord Fiddle
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Posted - 2010.10.24 18:13:00 -
[359]
Originally by: lol internets All this crying over the Drake getting nerfed at last really shows who are using it: people with no skill whatsoever in EVE.
It's obvious that nobody who is actually skillful at this game flies one, so nerfing them really doesn't do any harm.
Since PL is heavily invested in the Zealot fleets, I understand why you'd want the Drake nerfed.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.24 18:30:00 -
[360]
Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 24/10/2010 18:33:37 I don't see the problem as being the drake per se, but as a larger problem of missiles in general. With the exception of rockets/standard missile launchers, the long range launchers are easier to fit than the short range versions. Also note that the short range ammo needs more assistance (via target painters) to hit their targets for full damage than long range ammo does. A good start would be to make heavy launchers on the drake in line with long range guns on other ships. What it comes down to is that once a MWD and all turret hardpoints are filled, there's only a little bit of pg left with max skills. As an example, this could be achieved with heavy launchers requiring 140 base pg (T2). HAM's could take the old heavy launcher pg of 105 base. With this change, a drake pilot would be forced to choose between tank or gank with long range guns, but short range wouldn't be much of an issue.
The other aspect is making short range missiles require less assistance to do full damage than long range missiles. This is analogous to how short range guns track better than long range guns.
Obviously secondary tweaks will be needed to be made to spcialized ships/modules, but hopefully y'all can see the logic behind this post.
edit-also I think if max velocities were doubled and flight times were halved it would at least help the damage delay.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.24 19:14:00 -
[361]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 24/10/2010 18:33:37 I don't see the problem as being the drake per se, but as a larger problem of missiles in general. With the exception of rockets/standard missile launchers, the long range launchers are easier to fit than the short range versions. Also note that the short range ammo needs more assistance (via target painters) to hit their targets for full damage than long range ammo does. A good start would be to make heavy launchers on the drake in line with long range guns on other ships. What it comes down to is that once a MWD and all turret hardpoints are filled, there's only a little bit of pg left with max skills. As an example, this could be achieved with heavy launchers requiring 140 base pg (T2). HAM's could take the old heavy launcher pg of 105 base. With this change, a drake pilot would be forced to choose between tank or gank with long range guns, but short range wouldn't be much of an issue.
The other aspect is making short range missiles require less assistance to do full damage than long range missiles. This is analogous to how short range guns track better than long range guns.
Obviously secondary tweaks will be needed to be made to spcialized ships/modules, but hopefully y'all can see the logic behind this post.
edit-also I think if max velocities were doubled and flight times were halved it would at least help the damage delay.
Decreasing PG for passive shield tank ship? You mad? You just don't understand the difference between the HAM and HAML purpose, do you?
Quote: With the exception of rockets/standard missile launchers
Standard Missile Launcher II: 28 CPU, 9 PG. Assault Missile Launcher II: 39 CPU, 53 PG.
Also there is no long range variant for rocket launchers. Go play some EVE.
Quote: Also note that the short range ammo needs more assistance (via target painters) to hit their targets for full damage than long range ammo does.
HMs damage output on small targets significantly decreases with range, as long as HMLs have much worse ROF than HAMLs, HAMLs with precision ammo is the best solution in hitting small ships.
Quote: edit-also I think if max velocities were doubled and flight times were halved it would at least help the damage delay.
Messing with velocities/flight time will screw up fights against small ships.
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Hinaelark
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Posted - 2010.10.24 19:20:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji What about replacing current object-missiles with delayed damage+video effect, since we don't have unguided missiles?
I would think that this would either change the way that missiles work currently or add a lot of calculations that aren't currently done. For example, when do you calculate damage? How do you calculate flight time when other things can affect it? The current system makes this easier I would imagine, having an object with a set max speed that accelerates toward the target. This allows for people that activate an ab/mwd during flight time or speed up/slow down. If you try and have damage calculated when the missile would reach it's target then there is a lot of extra calculations that would need to be added in. If the damage is calculated at time of firing then any effects that might change the damage (increases/decreases in speed/sig) have to be activated before the missiles are fired.
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Tub Chil
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Posted - 2010.10.24 19:29:00 -
[363]
nerf fighter bombers + introduce missile disruptors supercarriers brought imbalance to this game drake is the same as it was before, but I remember times when it was mocked by everyone and unaccepted in most fleets if CCP nerfs it they will remove the only effective shield tanking and missile boat in the game. If they want armor and guns exclusively, then just remove caldari as a race
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.24 19:33:00 -
[364]
Originally by: Hinaelark I would think that this would either change the way that missiles work currently or add a lot of calculations that aren't currently done.
The current "homing" missile flight path calculation isn't necessary in about 99% of all cases and doesn't make that much of a difference in the remaining 1%.
Just keep track of where and when the missile was launched, and where the target is. Missile damage is applied as soon as (current missile flight time * missile velocity) equals or exceeds distance between point of launch and current target location.
These calculations are so simple that they shouldn't really put any load on the server, unless there's a million missiles in flight at a given time. No calculations necessary for missile acceleration or the homing algorithm.
And if anyone says that this isn't realistic: Duh. Autocannons apparently fire projectiles that have no flight time. Missile damage is influenced by an absolute velocity (something that doesn't exist in space). Etc. Etc.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.24 19:54:00 -
[365]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 24/10/2010 19:58:13
Originally by: Hinaelark If you try and have damage calculated when the missile would reach it's target then there is a lot of extra calculations.
Ain't we have lots of calculations with current missiles too? I don't think these calculations will cause more load than processing stuff for a "real" object.
Originally by: Exploited Engineer And if anyone says that this isn't realistic: Duh. Autocannons apparently fire projectiles that have no flight time. Missile damage is influenced by an absolute velocity (something that doesn't exist in space). Etc. Etc.
You could have simply typed "liquid space".
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AdamusMaximus
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Posted - 2010.10.24 20:40:00 -
[366]
ok not that i like drakes a lot (who doesnt like drakes) but cmon drakes r well balanced since missiles really depends on the movement speed of targets and range and speed mod. seriously though 0.0 pilots do overdo it a bit (ok a lot) but meh it seems to me that nowadays canes r becoming popular so nerf them instead =D
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.24 20:51:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Decreasing PG for passive shield tank ship? You mad? You just don't understand the difference between the HAM and HAML purpose, do you?
No, the drakes pg will stay the same, but the power requirments for long range launchers (heavies) should be greater than that of the short range launchers (Heavy Assault), for consistency with turret platforms.
Yeah I guess I don't care to enlighten me?
Quote:
Standard Missile Launcher II: 28 CPU, 9 PG. Assault Missile Launcher II: 39 CPU, 53 PG.
Also there is no long range variant for rocket launchers. Go play some EVE.
I wasn't aware that Assault launchers are used on frigs, dumbass. The pairs I was referring to is for frig class ships you have rockets/standard launchers. For BC class you have HAMs/Heavies and for BS class launchers you have siege/cruise launchers.
Quote:
HMs damage output on small targets significantly decreases with range, as long as HMLs have much worse ROF than HAMLs, HAMLs with precision ammo is the best solution in hitting small ships.
How does range have anything to do with explosion velocity or sig radius?
Quote: Messing with velocities/flight time will screw up fights against small ships.
It was just a suggestion to make the flight time delay in pvp less of an issue. And how does the missile velocity have anything to do with explosion velocity or sig radius?
What I am suggesting is that missile boats should be brought in line with turret platforms to some degree. Namely, turret platforms have to use more pg for long range turrets, sacrificing tank for range essentially. Why should missile boats be any different?
Also, close range missiles should be able to hit targets easier, as shield missile boats are already taxed on their mid slots for tank and EWAR, usually there's not enough room for TP's and the damage potential is reduced. The crossover I'm trying to make here as I already mentioned is that close range turrets track better than long range ones. This would actually make close range missile boat fits more powerful, and (hopefully) give rise to more caldari ships seen in pvp.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.24 20:55:00 -
[368]
Quote: for consistency with turret platforms.
Then also remove missile flight time?
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.24 21:01:00 -
[369]
Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 24/10/2010 21:03:21
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: for consistency with turret platforms.
Then also remove missile flight time?
Well they are missiles. The consistency I am referring to is not a direct port, but logical decision making consistencies like I already mentioned of sacrificing tank for range. The drake actually gets more pg when switching from HAM's to heavies.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.24 21:02:00 -
[370]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD What I am suggesting is that missile boats should be brought in line with turret platforms to some degree.
For that we have enough turret platforms. Why should completely different missile platform be brought to same standards?
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.24 21:11:00 -
[371]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji For that we have enough turret platforms. Why should completely different missile platform be brought to same standards?
Balance.
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Doctor Alban
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Posted - 2010.10.24 21:19:00 -
[372]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji For that we have enough turret platforms. Why should completely different missile platform be brought to same standards?
Balance.
Why are we discussing balance in a thread about a ship (and now its main weapon system) which is obviously well balanced in any other department than lag blob fleet fights in 00? Fix lag, issue solved. There is no need to bring missiles in line with other weapons, but if you do, then do it right. And not for just one aspect ...
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.24 21:29:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Doctor Alban
Why are we discussing balance in a thread about a ship (and now its main weapon system) which is obviously well balanced in any other department than lag blob fleet fights in 00? Fix lag, issue solved. There is no need to bring missiles in line with other weapons, but if you do, then do it right. And not for just one aspect ...
Because the switch to a long range drake fit actually benefits the drake in most aspects, with a modest damage reduction and an increase in EHP (if the freed up mid slots are used correctly). Where every other ship needs to kill it's EHP and DPS to shoot at the same range.
I believe that the problem with the drake, and by extension all missile boats lies with the missiles and launchers mostly. Close range missile launchers are harder to fit than the long range ones, and the close range ammo requires more target painting than the long range ammo. So by 'nerfing' the drake so to speak, its actually a boost to any short range missile boat under my suggestions and hopefully make more of the caldari lineup actually worth using.
Also, if my suggestions are wrong, please correct me and show me how to 'do them right'
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Hinaelark
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Posted - 2010.10.24 21:29:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer
Originally by: Hinaelark I would think that this would either change the way that missiles work currently or add a lot of calculations that aren't currently done.
The current "homing" missile flight path calculation isn't necessary in about 99% of all cases and doesn't make that much of a difference in the remaining 1%.
Just keep track of where and when the missile was launched, and where the target is. Missile damage is applied as soon as (current missile flight time * missile velocity) equals or exceeds distance between point of launch and current target location.
These calculations are so simple that they shouldn't really put any load on the server, unless there's a million missiles in flight at a given time. No calculations necessary for missile acceleration or the homing algorithm.
And if anyone says that this isn't realistic: Duh. Autocannons apparently fire projectiles that have no flight time. Missile damage is influenced by an absolute velocity (something that doesn't exist in space). Etc. Etc.
Yes, that would eliminate the acceleration and homing of missiles but then how would defender missiles work, or would those just need to be eliminated? Admittedly pvp doesn't normally use defenders so this may be a non-issue to just eliminate them from the game.
As far as the number of calculations, the number of 50 drakes has been getting thrown around on previous posts as the statistic for the number in a fleet and if this is at all accurate then you've got 7 missiles per drake, 350 per side, each running a repeating calculation each time that a missile is launched until it hits max range or strikes a target. This is all assuming that the first missile strikes before the refire time on the launcher triggers for a 2nd missile. Seems like it would be a lot of additional processor time but maybe not, depends on the repeat frequency of the calculation for impact I guess.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.24 21:51:00 -
[375]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 24/10/2010 21:53:07
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Doctor Alban
Why are we discussing balance in a thread about a ship (and now its main weapon system) which is obviously well balanced in any other department than lag blob fleet fights in 00? Fix lag, issue solved. There is no need to bring missiles in line with other weapons, but if you do, then do it right. And not for just one aspect ...
Because the switch to a long range drake fit actually benefits the drake in most aspects, with a modest damage reduction and an increase in EHP (if the freed up mid slots are used correctly). Where every other ship needs to kill it's EHP and DPS to shoot at the same range.
I believe that the problem with the drake, and by extension all missile boats lies with the missiles and launchers mostly. Close range missile launchers are harder to fit than the long range ones, and the close range ammo requires more target painting than the long range ammo. So by 'nerfing' the drake so to speak, its actually a boost to any short range missile boat under my suggestions and hopefully make more of the caldari lineup actually worth using.
Also, if my suggestions are wrong, please correct me and show me how to 'do them right'
Look at the stats of Drake and other, turret-based battlecruisers. What will ya see?
SHIP CPU PG:
Prophecy 350 1300 Harbinger 375 1500 Ferox 475 1075 Drake 525 850 Brutix 425 1150 Myrmidon 400 1175 Cyclone 425 1210 Hurricane 400 1350
Anyone will see that Drake has up to 25% more CPU in average and up to 30% less powergrid. CPU is critical for both tanking (since shield res amplifiers and hardeners eats LOTS of it) and weaponry (since launchers eat more CPU than turrets). But what about PG? It's your shield extenders. It's your MWD and AB, that's your damn warfare link which can't be properly fitted due to lack of PG! Turret ships with their loads of PG can fit both long-range or short-range setups with ease. But such ship as Drake will teach you to manage each precious point of powergrid and CPU and it will force you to learn all skills which affect powergrid and CPU capacity to lvl 5 as fast as you can. The only thing what saves the day is reasonable PG requirements on Heavy Missile Launchers, which, unlike Heavy Assault Missile Launchers can be fitted in all 7 slots without need in 5 lvl PG skills.
So.. I say yes. Give the drake at least 1000 of basic powergrid and mix the laucher requirements.
(Also you can exactly see why Ferox sucks with it's lowest PG among the turret platforms because of shield tank mixed with hybrid turrets.)
P.S.: Short range missile combat as MAIN type of missile combat? Stop smoking weed, damn short-range guided missiles is abomination of missile warfare. Missiles are supposed to be long-range since it first concept.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.24 22:47:00 -
[376]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
So.. I say yes. Give the drake at least 1000 of basic powergrid and mix the laucher requirements.
So we're in agreement...sort of...
Quote:
P.S.: Short range missile combat as MAIN type of missile combat? Stop smoking weed, damn short-range guided missiles is abomination of missile warfare. Missiles are supposed to be long-range since it first concept.
but not really...?
Also I could care less how things are 'supposed' to be. One thing is for sure, and that most caldari ships are worthless for pvp. So maybe if we stop caring about how things are supposed to be, and start focusing on how caldari ships could be more useful, we could actually get somewhere. Yes, close range missile warfare sucks atm, and I'd be willing to bet if close range missiles (all sizes) were boosted we'd see an increase in pvp caldari ships.
Also my pg suggestion for heavy launchers was so that a drake couldn't fit 7 heavy launchers, a MWD and a LSE without having to put on power grid mods. So the choice would come down to PG mods for more tank, or BCU's for more gank.
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LiNuXb0y
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2010.10.24 23:42:00 -
[377]
A few possibility's could be to turn in into a dedicated ham platform. This would fix the range issue and also the tank issue as to fit a full set of hams you simply cant put the 2x lse on it as you can with heavys.
For example I fly this for heavys: [Drake, heavys] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
This has 20k shields, 460 dps out to 73km and an ehp of 82k. hell of a combo
The ham fit i use is this: [Drake, hams] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II
Large Shield Extender II 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Faint Warp Disruptor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
Similar ehp, 15k shields, 600 dps but a range of 20km.
Imo make it a dedicated ham platform to sort the range issue, and remove the resist bonus.
Or to keep the the ability to use heavys give is a dessy style role bonus of 50% reduction in heavy missile flight time and remove the resist bonus.
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Ari Chu
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Posted - 2010.10.24 23:48:00 -
[378]
One change that I've thought about... is to change MWDs so that they give penalties to shields instead of Capacitor.
---
"The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers. |
Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
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Posted - 2010.10.25 00:56:00 -
[379]
The main balancing issue with drakes and heavy missiles is that they are very effective against, AB Hacs, Turrets BC's both long and short range, and short range BS's. It leaves them very few weak spots. What has essentially happened is that people have finally realized that the speed nerf made missiles a useful weapon system. Try and tackle a drake in a ceptor then try and tackle a arty cane or and ac cane. The drake will kill you no matter how skilled you are. The Arty cane will have a hard time killing you as you approach if you are a skilled ceptor pilot and can't touch you at all once you get close. The AC cane can't do anything to a good ceptor pilot who will just stay out of range. Tell me there isn't something wrong there.
Yes the drake won't do stellar damage to fast targets but it will do damage when turrets won't. That is what has to be fixed. The problem is that heavy missiles are too effective over too broad an array of targets. Then with the drakes BS level HP on top of that people wonder why it is being called overpowered.
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.25 01:11:00 -
[380]
So much Fail in here.
MWD penalty to shields and not cap? Little Lopsided considering shields are close to never used in fleets already.
With the Drake finally giving us 1 good fleet ship, and it changing how fleets are thought of and making peeps use Shields period for anything bigger than 20 v 20 Now you wanna nerf it...Idiots.
The Drake people does 400 DPS and its missiles take 8-10 Secs to hit and in lag fests 2-5 times that.
You wanna nerf Drakes because Lag, fine Make missiles have no Flight time...Bam solved.
See, 1 sided solutions arent fair. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.25 01:13:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Kalia Masaer The main balancing issue with drakes and heavy missiles is that they are very effective against, AB Hacs, Turrets BC's both long and short range, and short range BS's. It leaves them very few weak spots. What has essentially happened is that people have finally realized that the speed nerf made missiles a useful weapon system. Try and tackle a drake in a ceptor then try and tackle a arty cane or and ac cane. The drake will kill you no matter how skilled you are. The Arty cane will have a hard time killing you as you approach if you are a skilled ceptor pilot and can't touch you at all once you get close. The AC cane can't do anything to a good ceptor pilot who will just stay out of range. Tell me there isn't something wrong there.
Yes the drake won't do stellar damage to fast targets but it will do damage when turrets won't. That is what has to be fixed. The problem is that heavy missiles are too effective over too broad an array of targets. Then with the drakes BS level HP on top of that people wonder why it is being called overpowered.
you just described the main difference between missiles and turrets. missiles consistent damage over the whole range, lower damage at close range, for the price of delayed dmg (which can mean that the missiles burn out before even hitting). another disadvantage is that you can speed tank missiles even when moving away from them in a straight line. try to do that against a turret boat.
A turret boat might even instapop said interceptor, when it is stupid enough to approach in a straight line. and even when EFT tells you, that your turret boat does less dps at 70-75km, you might still outdps the drakes, because of the 15*seconds* it takes for the first drake volley to hit. (see post 25) you might be even warped out before the first volley even hit you.
and as a small hint ... when you try to tackle a drake try to stay as far away from it as possible to keep maximum speed, unlike you would do with a turret boat. increases your chance of survival a bit.
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RagnarRox
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Posted - 2010.10.25 01:18:00 -
[382]
Originally by: Kalia Masaer The main balancing issue with drakes and heavy missiles is that they are very effective against, AB Hacs, Turrets BC's both long and short range, and short range BS's. It leaves them very few weak spots. What has essentially happened is that people have finally realized that the speed nerf made missiles a useful weapon system. Try and tackle a drake in a ceptor then try and tackle a arty cane or and ac cane. The drake will kill you no matter how skilled you are. The Arty cane will have a hard time killing you as you approach if you are a skilled ceptor pilot and can't touch you at all once you get close. The AC cane can't do anything to a good ceptor pilot who will just stay out of range. Tell me there isn't something wrong there.
Yes the drake won't do stellar damage to fast targets but it will do damage when turrets won't. That is what has to be fixed. The problem is that heavy missiles are too effective over too broad an array of targets. Then with the drakes BS level HP on top of that people wonder why it is being called overpowered.
You are stupid and shouldnt post, Drake Better at killing Ceptors than AC Cane? You are out of your mind. Cane is way faster and hits very hard within point range with ACS, The Drake soley rellies on its light drones, since Inty`s MWD Bloom with a good pilot makes missiles blow.
If a cane tackles a Inty its game over, 9/10 the Inty can burn away from the Drake.
The Drake doesnt do Stellar DMG to any target, 400 or so DPS is not very High at all, lets be honest people if cost didnt matter we wouldnt even be talking about this. Drakes are effective in fleets because they are cheap and newb friendly PERIOD, not because they are OP, they get murdered to BS`s done right.
Init had 70 BS 30 Logi and killed 200+ Drake Blob the other night. But 70 BS is more risky, thats it. Also Drake Army`s have tons of Arty Canes and Rail Brutti`s, Beam Harbi Etc. So maybe they all need a nerf.
Man people in Eve are bad whiners, Adapt or Die, dont nerf a ship that is fine start a new trend like AB/Arm Zealots, or the New all Abby gangs..I guess they all need nerfs since they are all common. Take what you Can, when you can. |
Rheige Bladewhisper
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Posted - 2010.10.25 01:54:00 -
[383]
Originally by: Doctor Alban Why are we discussing balance in a thread about a ship (and now its main weapon system) which is obviously well balanced in any other department than lag blob fleet fights in 00? Fix lag, issue solved. There is no need to bring missiles in line with other weapons, but if you do, then do it right. And not for just one aspect ...
Indeed, it rather much seems like the easiest way to 'nerf' Drake superiority would be to 'nerf' lag.
Pity that they seem to care orders of magnitude more about spending EVE players' money on making World of Darkness prototypes then actively fixing the game, though.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 02:10:00 -
[384]
Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 25/10/2010 02:13:40
Originally by: RagnarRox The Drake doesnt do Stellar DMG to any target, 400 or so DPS is not very High at all
but 400 DPS at 70 km beats out any other BC by 100 or so DPS with twice the EHP. Close range the drake's slightly lower DPS (just under 700 with Terror Rage and drones) is offset with it's EHP advantage over higher DPS BC's. So it's balanced at close range, but out classes any other BC at the long range because there's no need for points, and the lower PG use of Heavy launchers vs. HAMs gives the drake more pg and slots to fit tank.
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente Mortis Angelus Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.10.25 02:14:00 -
[385]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Look at the stats of Drake and other, turret-based battlecruisers. What will ya see?
SHIP CPU PG:
Prophecy 350 1300 Harbinger 375 1500 Ferox 475 1075 Drake 525 850 Brutix 425 1150 Myrmidon 400 1175 Cyclone 425 1210 Hurricane 400 1350
Let's see how much pg is left over on these ships after fitting long range weaponry to get a real feel for how hard it is to fit other ships compared to the drake:
Prophecy: 140mw, 8.61% grid free Harbinger: 142.5mw, 7.6% grid free Ferox: 69.35mw, 5.16% grid free Drake: 401mw, 37.74% grid free Brutix: -49.3mw, -3.43% grid free Myrmidon: 194.35mw, 13.2% grid free Cyclone(5x turrets, 3x ML): -11.5mw (-0.76%) Hurricane(6x turrets, 2x ML): 13.5mw (0.8%)
As you can see, the drake has BY FAR the best fitting of any long range battlecruiser.
Quote: Anyone will see that Drake has up to 25% more CPU in average and up to 30% less powergrid.
And now anyone will see that an argument like that is garbage after you've taken reality into account. And reality says, out of all the long range battlecruisers the drake has a huge powergrid advantage which allows its to fit a bs-level buffer fit while still having superior range and dps at that range compared to its counterparts
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Cpt Tunguska
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Posted - 2010.10.25 02:38:00 -
[386]
Edited by: Cpt Tunguska on 25/10/2010 02:40:45
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Edited by: Vmir Gallahasen on 25/10/2010 02:20:31
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Look at the stats of Drake and other, turret-based battlecruisers. What will ya see?
SHIP CPU PG:
Prophecy 350 1300 Harbinger 375 1500 Ferox 475 1075 Drake 525 850 Brutix 425 1150 Myrmidon 400 1175 Cyclone 425 1210 Hurricane 400 1350
Let's see how much pg is left over on these ships after fitting long range weaponry to get a real feel for how hard it is to fit other ships compared to the drake:
Prophecy: 140mw, 8.61% grid free Harbinger: 142.5mw, 7.6% grid free Ferox: 69.35mw, 5.16% grid free Drake: 401mw, 37.74% grid free Brutix: -49.3mw, -3.43% grid free Myrmidon: 194.35mw, 13.2% grid free Cyclone(5x turrets, 3x ML): -11.5mw (-0.76%) Hurricane(6x turrets, 2x ML): 13.5mw (0.8%)
As you can see, the drake has BY FAR the best fitting of any long range battlecruiser.
Quote: Anyone will see that Drake has up to 25% more CPU in average and up to 30% less powergrid.
And now anyone will see that an argument like that is garbage after you've taken reality into account. And reality says, out of all the long range battlecruisers the drake has a huge powergrid advantage which allows its to fit a bs-level buffer fit while still having superior range and dps at that range compared to its counterparts
Very good post. Heavy Missile Launchers and Drakes are a totally unbalanced combination. Youre right, its not fair to all those turret BCs. CCP needs to do something to bring fitting possibilities of a Drake in line with the others.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.10.25 03:01:00 -
[387]
Drake blobs have been hard-countered, so I don't really see the point of this thread anymore.
Leave the drake alone.
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Religous Reclaimer47
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Posted - 2010.10.25 03:46:00 -
[388]
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Edited by: Vmir Gallahasen on 25/10/2010 02:20:31
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Look at the stats of Drake and other, turret-based battlecruisers. What will ya see?
SHIP CPU PG:
Prophecy 350 1300 Harbinger 375 1500 Ferox 475 1075 Drake 525 850 Brutix 425 1150 Myrmidon 400 1175 Cyclone 425 1210 Hurricane 400 1350
Let's see how much pg is left over on these ships after fitting long range weaponry to get a real feel for how hard it is to fit other ships compared to the drake:
Prophecy: 140mw, 8.61% grid free Harbinger: 142.5mw, 7.6% grid free Ferox: 69.35mw, 5.16% grid free Drake: 401mw, 37.74% grid free Brutix: -49.3mw, -3.43% grid free Myrmidon: 194.35mw, 13.2% grid free Cyclone(5x turrets, 3x ML): -11.5mw (-0.76%) Hurricane(6x turrets, 2x ML): 13.5mw (0.8%)
As you can see, the drake has BY FAR the best fitting of any long range battlecruiser.
Quote: Anyone will see that Drake has up to 25% more CPU in average and up to 30% less powergrid.
And now anyone will see that an argument like that is garbage after you've taken reality into account. And reality says, out of all the long range battlecruisers the drake has a huge powergrid advantage which allows its to fit a bs-level buffer fit while still having superior range and dps at that range compared to its counterparts
And just for the lols, HMLIIs should take approximately 177mw (without skills taken into account) at the least to bring them into balance with the turreted ships. Since they take 105mw now, that's around a 70% increase in pg requirements.
You are stupid, The reason a drakes buffer is great is its 25% Resist bonus.
All the others fit basically 1 Plate, and most Drakes fit 1 LSE. More than 1 T2 LSE is very hard to fit.
Also you cant pack on 2xHML Launchers on the cane and compare them, otherwise it out DMG`s the Drake by alot, instead should be 6 Arty vs 7 HML`s since Arty has much Higher Alpha is Capless DMG selectable AND INSTA DMGING.
Drakes are so great because they do Okish DMG which doesnt matter as much in gangs and has a great tank, nerfing the drake will make it blow in SOlo/Small gang and Fleet fights.
Its very simple Drake is king in BC class in either Small Gangs or fleets but is mashed easily by BS`s, and doesnt combat or tackle well at all.
Also who ever said drakes can do 700 DMG is smoking crack.
Great nerf Calds only truly good T1 Ship that has BEEN FINE AND HASNT CHANGED FOR 2 YEARS JUST SO YOU MORONS CAN COMPLAIN ABOUT IT BEING OP`d.
Zealots in sniper fits, Vaga`s in Fast Fits, Cynabals, Drams, Apoc`s, Abby`s, RR Geddon`s, All need to be nerfed since they Pwn in there own roles.
Shields never had a role until Drakes, if you nerf Missiles anymore they will be terribly underpowered.
Lastly you wanna compare Power Grids and whatnot Make Missiles have a Tier`d system like Guns, Nutroens, Ion`s, Electrons etc and make the Highest Dmg way more than what it is now but cost alot more, otherwise STFU
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 04:01:00 -
[389]
Originally by: Religous Reclaimer47
Also who ever said drakes can do 700 DMG is smoking crack.
I said drakes can do almost 700 DPS close range. Smoke on this crack:
[Drake, gank] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Target Painter II Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
677 DPS (worthy of almost 700 DPS)
Thats also just shy of 70k EHP, which isn't a problem as its in line with other BC close range fits, just more buffer and less DPS. The problem is that in the long range category the drake can fit more buffer and do more DPS than every other BC at 70km. Also if you would care to look at my initial suggestion, in summary I said that missile platforms need to behave similar to turret platforms where close range weaponry requires less PG than long range weaponry. Also that close range missiles should hit much better than they do now, so something like a torp raven would actually be useful.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 04:13:00 -
[390]
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Edited by: Vmir Gallahasen on 25/10/2010 02:20:31 Let's see how much pg is left over on these ships after fitting long range weaponry to get a real feel for how hard it is to fit other ships compared to the drake:
Prophecy: 140mw, 8.61% grid free Harbinger: 142.5mw, 7.6% grid free Ferox: 69.35mw, 5.16% grid free Drake: 401mw, 37.74% grid free Brutix: -49.3mw, -3.43% grid free Myrmidon: 194.35mw, 13.2% grid free Cyclone(5x turrets, 3x ML): -11.5mw (-0.76%) Hurricane(6x turrets, 2x ML): 13.5mw (0.8%)
As you can see, the drake has BY FAR the best fitting of any long range battlecruiser.
How did ya got 401mw free? I only have spare 115mw after fitting 7 HMLs with 0 skills. That's not even enough to put in MWD.
Also the bonus of Engineering skill on Drake is worse due to low basic PG.
Quote: And now anyone will see that an argument like that is garbage after you've taken reality into account. And reality says, out of all the long range battlecruisers the drake has a huge powergrid advantage which allows its to fit a bs-level buffer fit while still having superior range and dps at that range compared to its counterparts
Can't bs-level buffer be fitted on other BCs like Harbinger? Range ain't that superior when you calculate a transversal of cruiser-sized ship on, lets say, 30km orbit. How about 150-200 damage from 2500 volley? And 50-70 on ships like Dramiel?
Quote: And just for the lols, HMLIIs should take approximately 177mw (without skills taken into account) at the least to bring them into balance with the turreted ships. Since they take 105mw now, that's around a 70% increase in pg requirements.
Then, to make Drake "balanced" with turret ships you should add fall-off to the missiles and allow full damage on target which comes to it in straight line.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 04:24:00 -
[391]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Religous Reclaimer47
Also who ever said drakes can do 700 DMG is smoking crack.
I said drakes can do almost 700 DPS close range. Smoke on this crack:
[Drake, gank] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Target Painter II Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
677 DPS (worthy of almost 700 DPS)
Thats also just shy of 70k EHP, which isn't a problem as its in line with other BC close range fits, just more buffer and less DPS. The problem is that in the long range category the drake can fit more buffer and do more DPS than every other BC at 70km. Also if you would care to look at my initial suggestion, in summary I said that missile platforms need to behave similar to turret platforms where close range weaponry requires less PG than long range weaponry. Also that close range missiles should hit much better than they do now, so something like a torp raven would actually be useful.
And that's the Terror Rage missiles, which barely used against all sub-BS sized ships. It will take ya up to 2 minutes to kick out something like Dramiel or Daredevil from your orbit with this missiles
Quote: 677 DPS (worthy of almost 700 DPS)
Drones put out up to 100 dps. Hail to the drones. With Javelin missiles without drones u'll have 406 dps.
Also, to deal good damage on moving target at 70km you need it to stand still. Otherwise transversal speed getting worse (for drake) with orbit increase.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 04:28:00 -
[392]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
How did ya got 401mw free? I only have spare 115mw after fitting 7 HMLs with 0 skills. That's not even enough to put in MWD.
He's using all lvl 5 stats, which is sort of the standard for ship comparisons.
Quote:
Can't bs-level buffer be fitted on other BCs like Harbinger?
At the expense of any sort of reasonable DPS.
[Drake, pew] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
There you go, 411 DPS from the missiles out to targeting range, and 100k EHP. I used meta 4 shield extenders so it would fit without implants, otherwise you can upgrade to T2 with CPU implants.
No other BC can come anywhere close to that kind of EHP, and struggles to put that much damage out to 70km +
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 04:36:00 -
[393]
Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 25/10/2010 04:40:30
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Quote: 677 DPS (worthy of almost 700 DPS)
Drones put out up to 100 dps. Hail to the drones. With Javelin missiles without drones u'll have 406 dps.
Also, to deal good damage on moving target at 70km you need it to stand still. Otherwise transversal speed getting worse (for drake) with orbit increase.
Theoretical and actual DPS on turrets vary widely as well too. Nothing much can hit a dramiel anyway
Also, the drake close range is the BC with more buffer and less tank than other BC's. So the close range drake is balanced in that sense. Also note it gets a nice passive tank from its shield recharge.
I also think a general missile DPS buff in the form of either raw damage or in the form of better explosiion velocity/sig radius stats would really help missiles in general.
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Sakura Shiro
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Posted - 2010.10.25 04:37:00 -
[394]
Edited by: Sakura Shiro on 25/10/2010 04:40:08 Edited by: Sakura Shiro on 25/10/2010 04:39:03
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Religous Reclaimer47
Also who ever said drakes can do 700 DMG is smoking crack.
I said drakes can do almost 700 DPS close range. Smoke on this crack:
[Drake, gank] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Target Painter II Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
677 DPS (worthy of almost 700 DPS)
Drakes are too slow to use HAM's.....put them on cerbs/tengu. Being the slowest of the BC's...you can kite these relatively easy. Drake does not get range bonus...and you have no fuel rigs for that.
To have speed, your ham drake will use mwd. Sig radius so large you could pod a char to have negative tracking/targetting skills and it will hit this hard. HIgh sig raduis, still slow as hell, in the midst of the enemies optimals for their sr/mr weapons, suicide comes to mind. Fleet drakes are alwasy HML...they snipe outside medium gun range.
Also as mentioned a few times....drakes and sr is a bad blace to be . AC's with EMP ammo, beams thermal based....will eat this alive. 2 invuls with no em rigs will not fill the famous em hole properly. So lose one extender for em. Ohh and another for thermal (you know just in case an amarr pilots does something funky like do thermal damage...I know, they so rarely do it but best to be on the safe side). So there goes more of your ehp. I have landed on a bad warp in just in range of an sr fleet. Drake lasted 4 shots. At least I did better than the canes....they lasted 3. Guess thats the drake being op...I get podded last against properly run and fitted fleets?
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 04:46:00 -
[395]
Originally by: Sakura Shiro
Also as mentioned a few times....drakes and sr is a bad blace to be . AC's with EMP ammo, beams thermal based....will eat this alive. 2 invuls with no em rigs will not fill the famous em hole properly. So lose one extender for em. Ohh and another for thermal (you know just in case an amarr pilots does something funky like do thermal damage...I know, they so rarely do it but best to be on the safe side). So there goes more of your ehp. I have landed on a bad warp in just in range of an sr fleet. Drake lasted 4 shots. At least I did better than the canes....they lasted 3. Guess thats the drake being op...I get podded last against properly run and fitted fleets?
I made this fit as a quick example of what the drake can do. Obviously if you know what you're facing, such as amarr ships you'd fit different hardeners accordingly, otherwise I throw on invuls and extender rigs into EFT until I need to focus on a specific damage. And yeah, I'd call short range drakes on par with the other BC's. But as I've exhaustively pointed out no other BC can even come close to the EHP/DPS combination that a drake can pull off for long range.
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Tauni
Caldari Chained Reactions
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Posted - 2010.10.25 06:48:00 -
[396]
So, again, why do the other BCs have to match the Drake at long range, anyway? Some ships are better than others at certain roles.
Re: fitting and PG. Missiles take more CPU and less PG than equivalent weapons. The Drake, accordingly, has more CPU and less PG than equivalent ships. Moreover, HMLs use 10% more cpu and 20% less PG than HAMs (probably because HML are guided, or something like that).
So with the Drake, you have a ship that is more centered around CPU than PG. This is why an HML fit is easier than a HAM fit. Is this really a bad thing, to have a ship that revolves more around CPU, and is biased towards lower DPS, long-range fighting as a result?
In any event, where CCP seems to see possible problems with the Drake is in large fleet combat -- they think it's just fine in other situations. Many of these "Drake vs other BC" gripes seem to be aimed at the Drake's capabilities in general, though. It's as if this monster thread -- and CCP's responses -- have turned on this faucet of drakehate which has little to do with the issue at hand.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.25 07:34:00 -
[397]
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
And now anyone will see that an argument like that is garbage after you've taken reality into account. And reality says, out of all the long range battlecruisers the drake has a huge powergrid advantage which allows its to fit a bs-level buffer fit while still having superior range and dps at that range compared to its counterparts
And just for the lols, HMLIIs should take approximately 177mw (without skills taken into account) at the least to bring them into balance with the turreted ships. Since they take 105mw now, that's around a 70% increase in pg requirements.
And now the missiles will hit instantly with no flight time? Excellent.
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Kraschyn Thek'athor
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Posted - 2010.10.25 07:58:00 -
[398]
Originally by: RagnarRox
You are stupid and shouldnt post, Drake Better at killing Ceptors than AC Cane? You are out of your mind. Cane is way faster and hits very hard within point range with ACS, The Drake soley rellies on its light drones, since Inty`s MWD Bloom with a good pilot makes missiles blow.
If a cane tackles a Inty its game over, 9/10 the Inty can burn away from the Drake.
The Drake doesnt do Stellar DMG to any target, 400 or so DPS is not very High at all, lets be honest people if cost didnt matter we wouldnt even be talking about this. Drakes are effective in fleets because they are cheap and newb friendly PERIOD, not because they are OP, they get murdered to BS`s done right.
Init had 70 BS 30 Logi and killed 200+ Drake Blob the other night. But 70 BS is more risky, thats it. Also Drake Army`s have tons of Arty Canes and Rail Brutti`s, Beam Harbi Etc. So maybe they all need a nerf.
Man people in Eve are bad whiners, Adapt or Die, dont nerf a ship that is fine start a new trend like AB/Arm Zealots, or the New all Abby gangs..I guess they all need nerfs since they are all common.
And you're unfamilliar with the server realities. One Drake firing on a Interceptor, no Problem. A gang of Drakes pop an Interceptor, while an Turret Gang can be dodged. So an Drake Gang just has to target every Interceptor, fire one salvo and switch target. Drones in laggy enviroment are no Anti-Interceptor measure reliable.
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Stygian Knight
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.25 08:07:00 -
[399]
Originally by: Mord Fiddle
Originally by: lol internets All this crying over the Drake getting nerfed at last really shows who are using it: people with no skill whatsoever in EVE.
It's obvious that nobody who is actually skillful at this game flies one, so nerfing them really doesn't do any harm.
Since PL is heavily invested in the Zealot fleets, I understand why you'd want the Drake nerfed.
Ofc dude, it's our devs after all, what do you think who gave us the sphere ?
this thread roks
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Sakura Shiro
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Posted - 2010.10.25 08:14:00 -
[400]
Originally by: Tauni So, again, why do the other BCs have to match the Drake at long range, anyway? Some ships are better than others at certain roles.
Because a year ago when drakes were not organized and easy pickings for ahac roams....it was fun killing them. Warp to the tackle on your ranges...tear em apart with short to medium ranged death. Nice....stupid faildari, get a real ship next time.
Then some a guy, named john connor iirc, said...what if we gather up these drakes. Solo they are targets, together, who knows might be something better. Some practice on sisi, refine some tactics...And then they waited. Along came ahac gang. Drake on scan...
FC:kill it. Fly in... Fleet member: WTF...theres more than 1. FC: Meh...more faildari to kill. Fleet member: Umm boss...they keep growing in numbers. FC: We got this...been killing these things for years you damn noobs, find some balls Fleet member: umm these faildari pilots they...they...got smarter. They engage outside outside our ranges. FC: BS...faildari pilots aren't that smart...they chose faildari ffs. Now fight. Squad leader 1, have your people do this.
Silence....
FC: Squad leader 1, wtf? Squad leader 1: we dead sir, we all dead...going back for reship, bbl :(
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Admiral Mendel
Caldari Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.25 08:32:00 -
[401]
Originally by: Kail Storm Most peeps crying Drakes are OP`d were the same Idiots who said "it could never PVP" since it came out and "Anyone who PVP`s in a Drake is an idiot"
Lol its hillarious finally the idiots of Eve realize a ships potential that hasn`t changed since QR and all the sudden its OP`d.
If its OP`d you morons it has been since 2 Years ago, why now?
Because now your getting pwned by the simpletons ship that you said sucked and are embarrassed?
So you get Pwned by a ship that sucked then and hasnt changed so you want a nerf? To the only viable fleet Ship Cald has, you are all morons.
And to whoever said HM`s need Nerf is also a Moron, Caracal is already underpowered, Cerb in+70km fights is useless, So you want to nerf a funtional Weapon that is balanced?
These are also the same morons that said QR was a nerf to HML`s and the same peeps who laughed at peeps using HML Drakes...Lol how the idiots tables have turned.
I approve of this man. pretty much nailed it. alliances that have the manpower to assemble huge AHAC gangs want to be able to kill anyone who can't match their numbers....and now, cheap ships can counter them.... and they are crying like little babies instead of dusting off their battleships and countering the drakes. "oh noes i payed 150mil for a t2 ship and i can't beat everything, hAxORZZ!!!1111xxxsx, CCP NERF THEM"..... ..just pathetic....and to those who cry about who has most SP should win hands down...quit now, cause it'll never be SP*rezist = EHP & DPS..... buh buy..
P.s. you l33t PvP smurfs getting your rear end handed to you?...good, now go cry to your mommy, and stop bringing paper when you know the enemy has scissors....and no, 500th time is not the charm... peace
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Aylara
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Posted - 2010.10.25 09:21:00 -
[402]
TBH, Drakes are not a problem by themselves. Only when they are in big numbers with logistics they are. But so are Zealots.
The thing is, logistics scale very well when used in numbers, they are almost invincible. One good counter would be EW, but EW don't scale well at all. So if you want to keep the game of rock, paper, scissors, you should take a look at how logistics and EW scale.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.25 09:56:00 -
[403]
remote rep stacking penalty could work.
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SkwisgaarSkwigelf
Swords Horses and Heavy Metal
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Posted - 2010.10.25 10:27:00 -
[404]
HAHAHA ARE YOU GUYS ****ING SERIOUS? YOU THINK DRAKES ARE OVERPOWERED?
Good god what the **** is wrong with you people, "drakes op" holy hell do you EVEN PLAY EVE? SINCE WHEN HAVE DRAKES BEEN OP?
I didn't read your stupid thread because there's no point, but seriously. what is wrong with you people.
As for missiles causing lag, ccp fix your game don't nerf missiles. PRIORITIES PEOPLE.
Love - a pod pilot who can't fly a drake on any of his characters.
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Noemi Nagano
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Posted - 2010.10.25 10:32:00 -
[405]
Originally by: Tauni So, again, why do the other BCs have to match the Drake at long range, anyway? Some ships are better than others at certain roles.
Re: fitting and PG. Missiles take more CPU and less PG than equivalent weapons. The Drake, accordingly, has more CPU and less PG than equivalent ships. Moreover, HMLs use 10% more cpu and 20% less PG than HAMs (probably because HML are guided, or something like that).
So with the Drake, you have a ship that is more centered around CPU than PG. This is why an HML fit is easier than a HAM fit. Is this really a bad thing, to have a ship that revolves more around CPU, and is biased towards lower DPS, long-range fighting as a result?
In any event, where CCP seems to see possible problems with the Drake is in large fleet combat -- they think it's just fine in other situations. Many of these "Drake vs other BC" gripes seem to be aimed at the Drake's capabilities in general, though. It's as if this monster thread -- and CCP's responses -- have turned on this faucet of drakehate which has little to do with the issue at hand.
Quoted for truth.
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Sakura Shiro
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Posted - 2010.10.25 10:54:00 -
[406]
Originally by: HeliosGal remote rep stacking penalty could work.
shield transfer is broken compared to armor reps in terms of effectiveness. Nerf armor reps to shield transfer performance, and maybe this would be an agreeable solution since we want balance here. I'll trade you remote stacking penalty for the crap efficiency of remote rep that has reps stacked in the first place for shields. Then you'd see why its stacked. You armor tankers....got spoiled with remote rep that works well. Would love for you to come our side.
Course the other problem is ccp does not differentiate between a pos shield rep, or a ship...its the same mechanism. Stacking penalty on this, stacking penalty on your next pos save. May not mean much to some...till you are the carriers on the pos (or the support and bs' watching the carriers in case of action).
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Ariel Dawn
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.10.25 11:33:00 -
[407]
Originally by: lol internets All this crying over the Drake getting nerfed at last really shows who are using it: people with no skill whatsoever in EVE.
It's obvious that nobody who is actually skillful at this game flies one, so nerfing them really doesn't do any harm.
There is no skill difference in pressing F1 in a Zealot or pressing F1 in a Drake, none whatsoever. Drakes provide a great opportunity for new players to participate in a meaningful way in fleet fights.
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.25 11:37:00 -
[408]
if you count together all races ships from top 20 EVE-kill Stats (generated from 2010-09-25 to 2010-10-25) you will end to next numbers:
MINMATAR 267126 CALDARI 250789 AMARR 159188 GALLENTE 39856 ANGEL 34881
What we can see is that caldari race is not overpower at total, fact is that Caldari kills come from drakes and manticore. Manticore has less kills than Hound, reason why these 2 bombers are only ones on list is that those races have to learn missile skills for other ships too.
Reason why all caldari pilots use drakes is that there is no other usable caldari ship. Falcon and other jamming ships may be useful on some cases but atleast we in draketrain avoid to use those as much we can because those do prevent pvp to happen atleast on small scale battles.
So if ccp decides to nerf drake it means that caldari players has to start from zero to learn gunnery and drone skills if they want to move to amarr or gallente ships. If they move to minmatar ships they have atleast some use to missile skills. So nerfing drake end up to minmatar ship pvp domination on total.
Ccp can nerf drake, but i think they should boost some other caldari ships to level they could be used atleast in some role. Caldari HACs are not so good, recons got nerf already, battleships are shield tanked and do not fit fleets with other races etc.
It seems that finally when people understood how to fly caldari ships properly it will end to situation that other races has no ships to fit on those fleets like caldari usually does not fit fleet that has made on terms with other races.
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Admiral Mendel
Caldari Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.25 12:10:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Ari Chu One change that I've thought about... is to change MWDs so that they give penalties to shields instead of Capacitor.
it takes skill to be this wrong.....
oMg one ship has viable shield tank??/ KILLL ITTTT, go train armor....please...stop posting
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Admiral Mendel
Caldari Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.25 12:18:00 -
[410]
People seem to have neglected one fact in the whole nerf drake idea..... imagine 0 lag, now think how many drakes would die before the first salvo even hit it's target? now imagine the target dies, that's another 1-2 salvos out the window for each drake...stop being EFT warriors sheesh....
in 0 lag environment, you are lucky if you manage 200 dps with full skills, cause you loose a boatload of missiles, besides, when the enemy sees 50 red blinkin drakes, he's outa there...that's how many salvos wasted??? please
drakes are viable because lag keeps everyone in place and unable to react to developing situations....why do you think the drake wasn't popular till the servers fell on their rear ends??? -peace
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.10.25 12:32:00 -
[411]
Drake nerf? Wouldnt be the introduction of new ship - "zealot pl issue" /+1 utility high and wtz to any object in system/ and new mod - "pl modified cloaking device" /ship doesnt show in local/ better solution?
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Jimmy Duce
Navy of Xoc
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Posted - 2010.10.25 13:04:00 -
[412]
I'm not reading all that mess but the caldari has ONE good pvp ship. The drake. It is the top of its class but that's all the Caldari have that is top of it's class. Do the same thing you are doing to fighter bombers to all missles and poof missles no longer cause lag.
The drakes have always had larger EHP and lower DPS, it's fine, leave it alone.
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Malcofist Falconpunch
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Posted - 2010.10.25 13:06:00 -
[413]
I'm seeing WAGGHHH MISSLE SPAM SERVER LOAD CANT HANDLE IT. Flavor of the Month(6months...year..whatever) But then again you do this nerf then the new flavor of blob fleets probably...Myrmidons? OMG DRONEESSS SERRRVEERRR LOADDD CANTTT HANNDDLLEEE ITTT
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.10.25 13:21:00 -
[414]
*The Drake itself is not overpowered. The combination of missiles, many hitpoints and resistance bonus is exactly why it is good in the mentioned scenario but lack of practically applied dps makes it very balanced small scale. *The missiles are not overpowered either. They're not bad either but not overpowered û ThatÆs another debate.
In my opinion the REAL issue is either the buffer rigs or the ship bonus. CDFE and Trimarks can easily be fitted x3 on any ship. A ship like the Drake that has a lot of hitpoints will benefit more from the extender rigs than a ship with less hitpoints to start with. The ship bonus I guess are fine but may have some synergetic impact on the whole ship in large scale action. Touch them only if you have a fire extinguisher at handà
Maybe CCP should investigate how buffer rigs promote buffer tanks over active tanks and debate if buffer rigs take too little calibration or should otherwise be altered since we now have size differentiated rigs. I am happy CCP is taking a mature stand and acknowledge that people will quickly find a mean to handle Drake fleets while watching the Drake performance in various situations.
Pinky
PS: If CCP absolutely decides the Drake has too strong buffer in large scale scenarios they should change the resistance bonus to 5% all missile damage, and enhance the other bonus to 10% kinetic... Then letÆs see people whine about THAT hehe. I must admit it sucks running into Drakes when you canÆt even kill a well fitted Drake with 3 AFÆs
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I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew... |
Diesel47
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Posted - 2010.10.25 13:35:00 -
[415]
Nerf drake for being best BC?
Then might aswell nerf rifter, and zealot too.
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.25 13:38:00 -
[416]
Drake has been quite long with same attributes, so why it is now so popular? What has been changed? Drake has not.
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Admiral Mendel
Caldari Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.25 13:40:00 -
[417]
Kill lag, and you kill the "Age of the Drake"....
-peace
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.25 14:39:00 -
[418]
All these suggestions for "balancing" the drake miss the point. It's not unbalanced now. If it were you would see people selecting it for their small gang and solo play. And if, just for the sake of argument, it were SLIGHTLY better than other BC's (though clearly it is not) what of it?
CCP's goal here is NOT balance. A look at the other classes of ship in the game shows that balance is not even on CCPs radar.
Their goal is to eliminate lag causing missiles from fleet battles.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.25 14:51:00 -
[419]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD No other BC can come anywhere close to that kind of EHP, and struggles to put that much damage out to 70km +
And no other BC can expect to take full damage from volleys of Torps, or other Battleship class weapons. You are not comparing apples to apples. You cannot, with a combat mechanism as complex as EvE's, pull a single, or even a group of 4 for that matter, ship characteristic out for comparison without considering the entire context of total ship attributes. That is why CCP has such a hard time balancing any mechanic in this game. Every attribute can have a huge impact. What happens when a ship is boosted by a command ship? What happens when a pilot is using boosters? What happens when a pilot is using 12 different implants? If you think your "snapshot" of a comparison shows the whole spectrum of issues, you sir, are completely mistaken. Take a completely scientific approach to comparing these ships, and after the three months it takes you to do a full, exhaustive study of all the factors at play, come back and post your results.
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gfldex
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Posted - 2010.10.25 14:57:00 -
[420]
Originally by: Aerilis Lately they all fit for range, and just stay out of our range.
Very easy to counter.
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Sakura Shiro
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Posted - 2010.10.25 14:58:00 -
[421]
Edited by: Sakura Shiro on 25/10/2010 15:05:26 Edited by: Sakura Shiro on 25/10/2010 15:00:44
Originally by: Malcofist Falconpunch I'm seeing WAGGHHH MISSLE SPAM SERVER LOAD CANT HANDLE IT. Flavor of the Month(6months...year..whatever) But then again you do this nerf then the new flavor of blob fleets probably...Myrmidons? OMG DRONEESSS SERRRVEERRR LOADDD CANTTT HANNDDLLEEE ITTT
There is one solution to kill drakes...and kill lag. Sadly,ccp will never do it. Fix hybrids...and drake menace will end. Trust me. Make them suck less and people will go for lolrox and eagle instead of drake.
SR blasters that don't suck, mr/lr-ish rails with right ammo that actually hit for decent damage and we'd have lolrox, eagle, hell even hybrid sub'd tengus viable ships not chosen becauase the market is out of drakes or cerbs (about the only reason they are bought now imo). Instant damage and I can ho the primary and secondary km's (or reduce the amount of CN scourge I waste on targets blown up by "weak" gun ships like zealot, rapier, cane, harb that no longer exist when thier pathetic guns vaporize a target in the few seconds my missiles take to reach the target...smart drake pilots target 3 or down the list for the armor peeps who don't know how fun it is seeing guns kill faster than your missiles get on targets) I'd happily fly a fixed hydrid cruiser/BC.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 15:02:00 -
[422]
Originally by: Tauni So, again, why do the other BCs have to match the Drake at long range, anyway?
Because every other pilot has to make sacrifices to fit for long range. The drake can keep its role of the best EHP BC in the game, but there has to be at least some drawback for fitting for long range.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.25 15:03:00 -
[423]
Originally by: OT Smithers Their goal is to eliminate lag causing missiles from fleet battles.
I agree. I have butted heads with both of the null-sec corps/alliances I was in regarding the value of concentrated missile use in fleet warfare, even before the current Drake fad began, because of all of their advantages. However, I ultimately came to the conclusion that missiles are so different from guns, that the best thing CCP could do would be to completely get rid of them, or suffer from this on-going debate. However, we all know that without missiles or Drakes, the community would eventually sniff out the next combination of ship types and weapons that would exploit some sort of game mechanic that CCP never envisioned being used en masse. I can already think of a half-dozen ideas off the top of my head. This game is, thankfully, growing, with bigger battles, more pilots, and expanded research by same into effective battle tactics and techniques. That CCP may struggle, from time to time, to keep up with the player base of thousands with their comparitively much smaller development team should come as no surprise.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 15:05:00 -
[424]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Quote: At the expense of any sort of reasonable DPS.
That's what you get by choosing armor-based ships (it's even give us better tank than shield-based), since damage mods go to low slots. That's not the only Drake ability to fit tank without screwing up damage, it goes on for all shield-based ships, so, that's definitely NOT a thing which should be nerfed on Drake, if you think that shield-based ships ability to both tank and shoot is unbalanced. On the other hand, shield-based ships don't have such ability to freely use "debuffing" modules and have a decent tank at the same time. If only Ferox have been buffed the Drake would not have reached such popularity.
So, we have a "tank/damage or support/damage" against "tank/support or support/damage". Also remember that shield tank, unlike the armor tank, don't have passive booster for all resists. So the obvious way to standartize the ships would be making shield tank modules low-slot instead of mid and replacing Invul. Field with it's passive analog. Also it will cause removal of shield extenders fitting requirements in CPU and PG. Then if devs replace requirements for missile launchers we will have damn "shield" tanked platform with only cosmetic difference to turret armor-tanked platform in weapon type and tank type. That's not how you fill game with different, interesting and challenging content. And mixing with missile launchers fitting reqs will make it just "Non-missing-speed-depending-damage-delayed-to-15-seconds-TURRET". Now we can surely classify ships in terms of tank "Shield/Armor" and weaponry "Missile/Turret". Which, mixed with each other produce four basic groups of ships: Shield+Missiles, Armor+Missiles (Which is unfortunately not presented in game. Will appear soon, i hope.), Shield+Turrets and Armor/Turrets. Missiles is good for long range, turrets better at close. Shield tank is mostly passive, when armor tank is active all the time. This is completely different kinds of ships, and that's what we like in EVE, that's not damn cloned blood elf mage, gnome mage or human mage, which is all same but video representation.
Why is Drake so popular? It's the only decent missile platform, and missile+shield tank combination proven it's fleet efficiency. Especially, seems like with all that mig/low slot distribution shield-based ships are optimal for fleet fights (if only ships other than Drake (also keep in mind that missile launcher range and damage are good for fleet battles, but in small fights it is a disadvantage because turret-based enemy shoots you first) , Scorpion (sometimes) and Tengu (The only beam of light in the gloomy park of Caldari ships after the Drake) were not such crap in PVP... drake wouldn't have got so popular) and not too good for solo/small gangs. Simply we don't have alternative for drake in fleet battles today, so it will be used either until we get more Nuff said.
It's not good that people see unexisting OPness in Drake only because it is different from all that huge park of armor/turret ships. Most people look at statistics and say: "HUH IT'S SO POPULAR MUST BE DAMN OP!". And they're wrong. It's popular because of no alternatives. It's like lone varenyk with meat (OMG, MEAT IS SO OP) in the pot with potato varenyks, if you catched my drift.
Today Drake is unique. But EVE expands, so future will show up, will we have alternative or no.
Quote: There you go, 411 DPS from the missiles out to targeting range, and 100k EHP. I used meta 4 shield extenders so it would fit without implants, otherwise you can upgrade to T2 with CPU implants.
411 DPS at All-5? Come on, that's maybe worst damage for BC with such skills. Also, this fit have no web/painter/disruptor/scramble on it.
Quote: No other BC can come anywhere close to that kind of EHP, and struggles to put that much damage out to 70km +
Ferox can. But it suck in general.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 15:12:00 -
[425]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 25/10/2010 15:14:14 Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 25/10/2010 15:13:48 For everyone who think "tl;dr" about my previous post: Wanna other ship which match the Drake? Ask CCP to make one!
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Tauni So, again, why do the other BCs have to match the Drake at long range, anyway?
Because every other pilot has to make sacrifices to fit for long range. The drake can keep its role of the best EHP BC in the game, but there has to be at least some drawback for fitting for long range.
No. Sucks at close range without HAMs. Can't tackle anyone without throwing out up to 50% EHP. Because of that this is definitely not best EHP BC. Best one would rock at any distance, hold everything and tank more than star can. Jovian ships will be, huh?
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 15:25:00 -
[426]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
411 DPS at All-5? Come on, that's maybe worst damage for BC with such skills. Also, this fit have no web/painter/disruptor/scramble on it.
Not at 70 km range, like Heavy missiles can shoot out to.
[Hurricane, sniper] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Sensor Booster II
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Proton M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Proton M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Proton M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Proton M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Proton M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Proton M [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
200 DPS out to 71 km, then less once you hit the 46 km worth of falloff. And absolutely no room for a tank.
[Harbinger, sniper] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M Heavy Beam Laser II, Aurora M [empty high slot]
305 DPS out to 70 km, and also no room for a tank.
[Brutix, sniper] Reactor Control Unit II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II
250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M
263 DPS out to 75 km, and again, no room for a tank.
I know it would require reading back farther, but my suggestions of rebalancing the missile launchers so that the close range ones are easier to fit, in addition to making close range missiles much more viable would actually see a rise in more missile boats. Because now close range missiles don't need TP's up the ass and you have more room to fit for a tank. Funny how that would work out.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 15:30:00 -
[427]
Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 25/10/2010 15:33:26
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
No. Sucks at close range without HAMs. Can't tackle anyone without throwing out up to 50% EHP. Because of that this is definitely not best EHP BC. Best one would rock at any distance, hold everything and tank more than star can.?
You can easily get around 70k EHP on a HAM drake, that beats out an armor cane and harbi (all lvl 5 stats). And since when are BC's supposed to be good at tackling? The only one that is marginally good is a nano cane. Hell, the harbinger is slower than the drake once its plated and rigged up.
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium.
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Posted - 2010.10.25 15:31:00 -
[428]
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 25/10/2010 15:33:41 Well, I've seen plenty of arguments, opinions, and EFT Warrioring as well as numerous personal accounts to argue one position or another. Chronotis, is there a certain type of post, statement, or structure of forum post you and CCP are looking for in this thread? If you point the discussion in the right direction, you'll probably get the type of posts (if any) you're looking for.
Right now, everyone's running around in circles with no attempts at breakout in sight.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.25 15:34:00 -
[429]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 25/10/2010 15:35:39
Originally by: Bad Messenger
MINMATAR 267126 CALDARI 250789 AMARR 159188 GALLENTE 39856 ANGEL 34881
So nerfing drake end up to minmatar ship pvp domination on total.
Truth. Even a so-called all Drake corp like draketrain has more kills with Minmatar ships than Caldari ships.
They prefer Hurricanes
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 15:41:00 -
[430]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 25/10/2010 15:45:24
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD I know it would require reading back farther, but my suggestions of rebalancing the missile launchers so that the close range ones are easier to fit, in addition to making close range missiles much more viable would actually see a rise in more missile boats. Because now close range missiles don't need TP's up the ass and you have more room to fit for a tank. Funny how that would work out.
Why do u see easy fittable long range missiles as advantage in the first place? Their shooting time and missile speed itself make it extremely crappy if sudden shortrange Hurri warps out in his optimal to say "Hello" to your capsule. As long as I need to repeat again and again: missile damage differs with range and target velocity, so hitting unmoving ship would be the same, but if enemy orbits you an max sheed and range - missile dps would be compareable to the Turret dps.
Roses are red, violets are blue, turrets are for close combat, missiles are for long range.
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 25/10/2010 15:33:26 And since when are BC's supposed to be good at tackling?
Since there is solo/small gang PVP in EVE too.
Originally by: X Gallentius Edited by: X Gallentius on 25/10/2010 15:35:39
Originally by: Bad Messenger
MINMATAR 267126 CALDARI 250789 AMARR 159188 GALLENTE 39856 ANGEL 34881
So nerfing drake end up to minmatar ship pvp domination on total.
Truth. Even a so-called all Drake corp like draketrain has more kills with Minmatar ships than Caldari ships.
They prefer Hurricanes
There is no doubt Gallente need boost. But this is thread about Drake.
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Aerouge Gendai
Caldari Deep Exploration Projects and Programs
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Posted - 2010.10.25 15:49:00 -
[431]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
.. the missile usage causes high additional load...
YaY BAN The missiles from PVP, all of them!
It¦s just a quarter of the available weaponry, so nerf it to unusability!
Whats the next step? Oh whenever there is lag people are using Ships? Maybe nerf spaceships and pvp in Pods? Sounds like a lot less lag to you? For me as well...
oh and the next step, PLEASE NERF Playernumbers because they "cause(s) high additional load" _________________________________________________ my German Eve Blog: Ein Caldari allein in Eve |
rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 15:49:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Why do u see easy fittable long range missiles as advantage in the first place? Their shooting time and missile speed itself make it extremely crappy if sudden shortrange Hurri warps out in his optimal to say "Hello" to your capsule. As long as I need to repeat again and again: missile damage differs with range and target velocity, so hitting unmoving ship would be the same, but if enemy orbits you an max sheed and range - missile dps would be compareable to the Turret dps.
And thats one half of the equation. Remember turret DPS varies as well, so in practice its probably lower too. The other half is that drake pilots don't even need to think about the drawbacks of fitting for long range, because there are none. And if a fleet lands on top of a bunch of 100k EHP Heavy missile drakes they'd last far longer than a fleet of sniping canes/harbingers.
Quote:
Since there is solo/small gang PVP in EVE too.
Because a harbinger is slower than a drake. Ever heard of HACs/Recons?
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 16:10:00 -
[433]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 25/10/2010 16:12:43
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD And thats one half of the equation. Remember turret DPS varies as well, so in practice its probably lower too. The other half is that drake pilots don't even need to think about the drawbacks of fitting for long range, because there are none.
Turret dps is mostly random. Also don't forget critical hits. So, in general, it's still same.
Quote: And if a fleet lands on top of a bunch of 100k EHP Heavy missile drakes they'd last far longer than a fleet of sniping canes/harbingers
Grats! U discovered how to beat the Drake blobs! Serve with bomber sauce! Seriously, week ago got my (not only) ass kicked in fleet battle (lost it) by the damn bombers. See? Drake isn't uncounterable. EVE is just modern version of "Rock-Paper-Scissors". And you're trying to put rock in one line with the scissors so they will differ only by names and have the same purpose in the game.
Quote: Because a harbinger is slower than a drake.
That doesn't mean it can't warp out. Unless the drake has disruptor or scramble. Which will cost ya some tank.
Quote: Ever heard of HACs/Recons?
Yeah. Just imagine the Zealots coming in Drake numbers. Raep'o'fleet. In my opinion the only thing Drake OP in is price. For 50kk you'll fit fully-operational top-notch T2 fitted drake and ged 22kk back if you loose it. Ever tried building a Hurri at same price? Also, that's why Drake fleets are so popular. And the only way to nerf it is to remove it from the game completely, since CCP can't change peoples minds and force them to sell/produce/buy Drakes for bigger price.
Imagine the forum cries "NERF ZEALOT IT IS SO OP" if some corp would be able to make them as easy as drakes today.
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Noemi Nagano
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Posted - 2010.10.25 16:23:00 -
[434]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 25/10/2010 16:10:50
Lets take a wider look at all caldari ships. Why do they in general suck? (Besides the specialized ones, such as the falcon of course.) Well based on my observations (correct me if I'm wrong), close range missiles need like 2-3 TP's to do full damage, something that isn't really practical. Long range missile boats (cruise raven, HM cerb, etc.) are overshadowed by insta-damaging turret sniper platforms, where if you have no tackle on your sniping target, they can easily warp off before your missiles arrive. And finally the caldari hybrid boats suffer from hybrids, especially railguns, being terribad. Right in the middle of all this comes the drake, which sets an unprecedented EHP/Damage for a mid range sniper. Close range its probably a little UP with HAMs. But, if we take my suggestions and make close range missiles easier to fit, and easier to apply full damage to targets of similar size or larger, a HAM drake might be more useful, and by extension, a siege missile raven. When was the last time anyone saw a raven in pvp? Long range missiles need to take up more fitting than close range missiles, for balance reasons, you know, drawbacks of being able to shoot farther. The long range ammo could probably use a speed boost (and whatever balancing that affects be changed) so there is at least some usefulness for long range boats.
First you say long range missiles generally suck since they can be avoided easily and then your conclusion is to make fitting reqs harder for long range missiles .. I absolutely dont agree with this and cant see how you could logically come to this conclusion.
In other postings you claim the Drake to be OP in comparison to its rival BCs, funny thing is most other people seem to think the Drake is fine as it is and you simply wont see succesful Drake-only small gangs in low. The Drake is the one with most EHP, yes. But is also the one with lowest DPS on fighting ranges where most fights apart from 0.0 blob will happen.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 16:23:00 -
[435]
Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 25/10/2010 16:25:41
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Grats! U discovered how to beat the Drake blobs! Serve with bomber sauce! Seriously, week ago got my (not only) ass kicked in fleet battle (lost it) by the damn bombers. See? Drake isn't uncounterable. EVE is just modern version of "Rock-Paper-Scissors". And you're trying to put rock in one line with the scissors so they will differ only by names and have the same purpose in the game.
I've always thought there was something wrong with the drake, even before this FOTM. And I finally found it, thats that is has no drawbacks to shoot long range. I can live with the drake having the best EHP out of all the BC's, and even the best mindless (shield recharge) tank. But the fact that it is better for long range combat is where I've got the problem. Note that any sniping turret platform has to give up tank to fill its niche role. Also, there are so many drakes, because it is basically the only useful missile boat. Thats where I came up with suggestions to make other missile boats actually worth using in my last post.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 16:27:00 -
[436]
Originally by: Noemi Nagano
First you say long range missiles generally suck since they can be avoided easily and then your conclusion is to make fitting reqs harder for long range missiles .. I absolutely dont agree with this and cant see how you could logically come to this conclusion.
They suck because of flight time, I've suggested to make long range missiles travel faster. Fitting requirments being harder is so that close range is easier to fit. This also means you can fit more tank and other things for close range. aka a boost in close range missile combat, and long range boost (sort of) but with the drawbacks of actually having to think about what you fit to your long range boat.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 16:37:00 -
[437]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 25/10/2010 16:25:41 Note that any sniping turret platform has to give up tank to fill its niche role.
Since most popular are armor-based so yeah. But we still have "Ferox The Ugly Duckling" which can do both tank and pew-pew. I think in will be very popular after possible hybrid turrets boost. Also, in BS class we have Rokh for that.
Every time you think there is no tanking sniper ship - CCP delays the Ferox boost. So keep thinking this way.
I can live with the drake having the best EHP out of all the BC's, and even the best mindless (shield recharge) tank. U either have buffer-tank with crappy recharge rate or 200hp/s recharge with crappy buffer. Also, best possible EHP output - Harbinger.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 16:40:00 -
[438]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Noemi Nagano I've suggested to make long range missiles travel faster.
Dear CCP, if you read this: Please do exactly as that guy say. Increase the PG needs for the long-range missile launchers as well as long range missile speed (with equal percentage).
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.25 16:41:00 -
[439]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
"lol fits"
How about using tremor, your hurricane shoots 278dps up to 79+46
fitting fail fits is not a good way to think about balance :)
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.25 16:42:00 -
[440]
Quote: And I finally found it, thats that is has no drawbacks to shoot long range
Fully agreed! Drakes have no advantages to shooting short range, contrary to turret ships. From this i think we can all agree that drakes needs to be boosted...
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 16:47:00 -
[441]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: And I finally found it, thats that is has no drawbacks to shoot long range
Fully agreed! Drakes have no advantages to shooting short range, contrary to turret ships. From this i think we can all agree that drakes needs to be boosted...
Also I can say we need more variations of heavy missile launchers, which will differ in caliber and fitting reqs.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 16:55:00 -
[442]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji Also, in BS class we have Rokh for that.
The rokh still has to give up a lot of its tank to snipe effectively. It doesn't get more pg for fitting for sniping.
Quote: U either have buffer-tank with crappy recharge rate or 200hp/s recharge with crappy buffer. Also, best possible EHP output - Harbinger.
Something like this:
[Harbinger, close range] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M [empty high slot]
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
Only has marginally better EHP than something like this:
[Drake, gank] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Target Painter II Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
And the drake has a damn good buffer and a 149 DPS shield recharge tank. Or you could do something like this:
[Drake, pew] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
BS range buffer and 252 passive tank.
So even if the harbinger has marginally better buffer, the drake still has its shield recharge on its side, as long as it isn't alpha'd the drake would last longer to BC range DPS.
But yeah, I'm all for a boost in close range missile combat anyway, as long as it comes at the price of drake pilots actually having to think about their fitting for long range.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 16:57:00 -
[443]
Originally by: Bad Messenger
How about using tremor, your hurricane shoots 278dps up to 79+46
fitting fail fits is not a good way to think about balance :)
Its still less than the theoretical damage from a drake at that range. Try again.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:00:00 -
[444]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote: And I finally found it, thats that is has no drawbacks to shoot long range
Fully agreed! Drakes have no advantages to shooting short range, contrary to turret ships. From this i think we can all agree that drakes needs to be boosted...
Boosted in short range yes, as all caldari ships do. But long range needs to be harder to fit.
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:03:00 -
[445]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Because every other pilot has to make sacrifices to fit for long range. The drake can keep its role of the best EHP BC in the game, but there has to be at least some drawback for fitting for long range.
There are many drawbacks. An OBJECTIVE comparison requires that all attributes be considered together -- not just the one or two that benefit your position. Your statement is as flawed as saying "Every other pilot must make sacrifices for speed!" when referring to Minmatar, then using that speed alone to claim their ships OPed.
The reality is this: BCs are perhaps the most balanced class in the game, and if the number of pilots flying them in low sec and solo/small gang is any indication, the Drake is not the best of this relatively balanced lot. CCP has said as much in this thread. The Drake is good at one thing only: Lag warfare.
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Hlidskjalf
Dynamis New Eden
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:04:00 -
[446]
The fit in the OP may be true, but its a gang fit that has nothing to point with. Drake gangs have existed since they were introduced, many styles, many variants. The only reason that the Drake gangs have become so popular are down to their effectiveness against Armour HAC/T3 gangs which were the last FOTM post "Adapt or Die." I'm pretty sure there will have been many "Nerf Zealot" threads when people went on the receiving end of one of those gangs. Beyond the usual trolls and riff raff, the armour HAC gang concept boiled down to a group of ship flying as a well oiled machine, using specific fits to elevate advantages and become an extremely effective way of sending people to cloning bays fast. It required specific, more expensive ships, had its strengths and had its weaknesses.
The Drake gang that rose to prominence in the latter stages of the D'K expulsion from Providence was designed as a counter. Here, you had ships that:
- -Were cheaper and more insurable, easier to replace
-Use weapons that will hit no matter what, and which can be improved by target painters -Easier to fly in terms of skills, so lower barrier to entering gangs -Could attack outside the range of the AHAC gang (30-40km on Zealots) -Were faster than the AHAC gang at a cost to signature radius -Could field a respectable buffer so that logistics would have a chance to lock them before they turn to wreckage
They leverage their own e-war against that of the AHACs, and it becomes a fight of range. If an AHAC gang gets within 20km-30km from a Drake/Scimi, that Drake/Scimi dies, no logistics will save it. If the Drake gang keeps range, it survives. The introduction of T3 has also seen armour Lokis with webbing subsystems acting as heavy tacklers. Even harder to keep range from.
It was a scissors designed to the AHAC paper. If flown wrong, a Drake gang dies horribly. It still requires a good deal of skill to run and use it against similar sized fleets. You have your own advantages, the enemy had theirs. Fight on yours, your advantage. Fight on your enemies, your funeral. The argument of blobbing has really come into it because as stated, its easy to fly a Drake. In gangs of 30, they hurt. Funnily enough, so would a gang of 30 Myrms, Hurricanes, Harbingers. The real dufus tries to engage a gang of 30 Drakes at 60km with his 30 Myrms and cries when the gang gets annihilated. Blobbing is also on the rise because people use super capitals more often than not these days. Everyone wants a super cap kill, and Mother ships atm tear apart anything they can hit, so you gotta be able to replace those that fall. :)
A final thought: It wasn't too long back that people cried "Buff shield tankers, we can't tank and tackle at the same time, armour is so much better for PvP." Alone, the Drake in the OP is a floating KM. In groups, it's a group of floating KMs. With a fleet around it, then its impressive. Funny how the Drake has finally found a place, and some will cry "Is it overpowered?"
*shrug*
- Hlid
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:06:00 -
[447]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 25/10/2010 17:08:35
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD theoretical damage
Nuff said.
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD But long range needs to be harder to fit.
Why should it? Missiles are supposed to be long range. Because they suck at close. And that is the balance between them and turrets. You don't like the range? Then come closer and kick the Drake ass. Making the different ship types counter each other with ease - this is the balance, not the bringing them all to same fitting patterns. I think you understood that in the very beginning of discussion and all you doing now is just troll-repeating the same old message with replaced words.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:08:00 -
[448]
Originally by: OT Smithers
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Because every other pilot has to make sacrifices to fit for long range. The drake can keep its role of the best EHP BC in the game, but there has to be at least some drawback for fitting for long range.
There are many drawbacks. An OBJECTIVE comparison requires that all attributes be considered together -- not just the one or two that benefit your position. Your statement is as flawed as saying "Every other pilot must make sacrifices for speed!" when referring to Minmatar, then using that speed alone to claim their ships OPed.
You claim my comparisons were not objective, then use a straw man to prove your point, and then in no way state what comparisons I supposedly missed. Oh, and if you want CCP's take on the matter, refer to here:
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or similar scenarios is more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fights are close ranged and in smaller numbers where med slots count more.
Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.
It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
Thats post 124 btw.
Now if you think I missed some stat when discussing the drake, why don't you just come out and say specifically what I missed instead of making a generalization and a straw man.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:13:00 -
[449]
Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 25/10/2010 17:15:46
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Nuff said.
Turrets do less DPS to smaller, faster targets as well. Missiles and turrets to more damage to larger targets.
Quote: Why should it? Missiles are supposed to be long range. Because they suck at close.
So they're supposed to be long range beause the close range variants suck? lol. If missiles were supposed to be long range there would be no short range launchers or missiles. We might as well take all long range turrets because "missiles are supposed to be long range". Nuff said.
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Abuta Beki
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:18:00 -
[450]
The Drake is not overpowered. Performance-wise, it fits perfectly in-between good cruisers and battleships, which is exactly what a battle-cruiser should be like.
If anything, the other battle-cruisers are underpowered.
Instead of nerfing anything about the Drake, most of the other battle-cruisers need a little love. Gallente are especially screwed when it comes to fleet battle-cruisers, with both their BCs sporting an active armor repair bonus. The only battle-cruiser that is en par with the Drake is the Hurricane, trading the Drake's massive tank for massive firepower. |
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:18:00 -
[451]
Edited by: Exploited Engineer on 25/10/2010 17:21:36
Originally by: Hinaelark Yes, that would eliminate the acceleration and homing of missiles but then how would defender missiles work, or would those just need to be eliminated?
They would work pretty much like they do now. They get fired automatically if a hostile missile aimed at you gets within x km and use the same simplified flight path/time calculation as a regular missile.
Not much would change.
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente Mortis Angelus Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:20:00 -
[452]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji Also, best possible EHP output - Harbinger.
In a fleet setup? Show me a harb setup that fires at 70km with similar EHP as a drake and I'll stand on my head and chant 'you are the Master' repeatedly for you. And, of course, no unrealistic gimmicks. For example, nobody will be using a HG slave set while flying harb in a nullsec fleet fight
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Noemi Nagano
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:31:00 -
[453]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Bad Messenger
How about using tremor, your hurricane shoots 278dps up to 79+46
fitting fail fits is not a good way to think about balance :)
Its still less than the theoretical damage from a drake at that range. Try again.
How will a Drake do any damage at those ranges? Boost HML range, its imbalanced Caldari cant shoot so far without using rigs or hardwirings!
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:31:00 -
[454]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 25/10/2010 17:15:46 Turrets do less DPS to smaller, faster targets as well. Missiles and turrets to more damage to larger targets.
Because of misses. But if hit landed well - bye-bye.
Quote: If missiles were supposed to be long range there would be no short range launchers or missiles.
Just name one reason why missile launches should be used the same way as turrets? Isn't that good to have COMPLETELY different types of weapons? You're just trying to say that we should use missile launchers as turrets with delayed damage, and use it in same way and situations. Thinking that way CCP should have already deleted all ships except noob models and let us to use them. By all this "DPS/Range/Chance to hit" stuff people just don't see that they discussing about different weapons, like who is stronger - elephant or whale?
Also, every missile IRL is supposed to be long-range. Also IRL long-range artillery today costs more than missiles for that purpose.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:32:00 -
[455]
Originally by: Abuta Beki The Drake is not overpowered. Performance-wise, it fits perfectly in-between good cruisers and battleships, which is exactly what a battle-cruiser should be like.
Drakes are slightly on the weak side in close range HAM setups, and are OP for long range HM setups. Solution? make HAMS easier to fit, and HM harder to fit. Also a general boost to all close range missiles would really give caldari some usefulness again.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:37:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
if hit
nuff said
Quote:
Just name one reason why missile launches should be used the same way as turrets?
Name one useful, cost effective missile boat besides the drake.
Quote:
Also, every missile IRL is supposed to be long-range. Also IRL long-range artillery today costs more than missiles for that purpose.
Using RL arguments in eve. ROFL
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:43:00 -
[457]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 25/10/2010 16:10:50
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Why do u see easy fittable long range missiles as advantage in the first place? Their shooting time and missile speed itself make it extremely crappy if sudden shortrange Hurri warps out in his optimal to say "Hello" to your capsule. As long as I need to repeat again and again: missile damage differs with range and target velocity, so hitting unmoving ship would be the same, but if enemy orbits you an max sheed and range - missile dps would be compareable to the Turret dps.
And thats one half of the equation. Remember turret DPS varies as well, so in practice its probably lower too. The other half is that drake pilots don't even need to think about the drawbacks of fitting for long range, because there are none. And if a fleet lands on top of a bunch of 100k EHP Heavy missile drakes they'd last far longer than a fleet of sniping canes/harbingers.
Quote:
Since there is solo/small gang PVP in EVE too.
Because a harbinger is slower than a drake. Ever heard of HACs/Recons?
Lets take a wider look at all caldari ships. Why do they in general suck? (Besides the specialized ones, such as the falcon of course.) Well based on my observations (correct me if I'm wrong), close range missiles need like 2-3 TP's to do full damage, something that isn't really practical. Long range missile boats (cruise raven, HM cerb, etc.) are overshadowed by insta-damaging turret sniper platforms, where if you have no tackle on your sniping target, they can easily warp off before your missiles arrive. And finally the caldari hybrid boats suffer from hybrids, especially railguns, being terribad. Right in the middle of all this comes the drake, which sets an unprecedented EHP/Damage for a mid range sniper. Close range its probably a little UP with HAMs. But, if we take my suggestions and make close range missiles easier to fit, and easier to apply full damage to targets of similar size or larger, a HAM drake might be more useful, and by extension, a siege missile raven. When was the last time anyone saw a raven in pvp? Long range missiles need to take up more fitting than close range missiles, for balance reasons, you know, drawbacks of being able to shoot farther. The long range ammo could probably use a speed boost (and whatever balancing that affects be changed) so there is at least some usefulness for long range boats.
And the counter to this is, THE OTHER BC`s AT CLOSE RANGE CAN FIT WITH NO PROBLEM.
To fit a Standard Ham Drake you need PG implant.
You dont have much "Exp" In fighting I would venture to say, since you dont see how bad Missile Flighttime can be, In large fights they have not been used since 2-3 months ago when drake blobs began. Before that Missiles where outcasts, and NOTHING HAS CHANGED except PEOPLES PERSPECTIVES.
rek you can do as many EFT warrior excercises as you want, Turrets are always better in large fights. 100 Canes will beat 100 Drakes, the canes will just need to get to 50km which they can do very easily.
The reason for using the Drake is simple, CareBear armies, You now can actually use all these guys who are Drake pilots who before only ratted, and nevr was askd to fight, hell my hauling buddies join Drake combat now.
The Drake is the AK-47 of Combat in Eve, Ez to use, Low SP needed, Very effective, Very Hardy, Very Cheap. But dont kid yourself into thinking its not about Price, there are way better ship combo`s, hell Legion Gangs can wipe Drakes out, they have 140k EHP and 300 DPS@80km so they can stay out of range plus there ABing and resists the Drakes do 140ish DPS against them. Abby`s Geddons, any group of Arty BS`s, they all will murder them.
-------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:43:00 -
[458]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji There is no doubt Gallente need boost. But this is thread about Drake.
Thread pretty much over. The consensus appears to be that Drake doesn't need to be nerfed, and that server (and/or method of implementing missiles) needs to be improved.
BM's comment is on point. Nerf Drake and game moves closer to Minmatar Online.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:47:00 -
[459]
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji Also, best possible EHP output - Harbinger.
In a fleet setup? Show me a harb setup that fires at 70km with similar EHP as a drake and I'll stand on my head and chant 'you are the Master' repeatedly for you. And, of course, no unrealistic gimmicks. For example, nobody will be using a HG slave set while flying harb in a nullsec fleet figh
Why should the Harb do it in the first place? Comparing apples to oranges won't give us much truth. And the truth is: this ships is completely, absolutely different, like electron and proton. And the other part of truth is: everything except Drake (electron) is proton nowadays. I'll state it again: There is no ship in any other race which is similar to Drake in it's concept. And until other races will have their own missile platforms - Drake would be called OP and unbalanced all the time. Sometimes tank is better than a squad of marines. Sometimes marine squad is much more useful. But noone in sane mind will compare them to each other.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:51:00 -
[460]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 25/10/2010 17:55:51
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Abuta Beki The Drake is not overpowered. Performance-wise, it fits perfectly in-between good cruisers and battleships, which is exactly what a battle-cruiser should be like.
Drakes are slightly on the weak side in close range HAM setups, and are OP for long range HM setups. Solution? make HAMS easier to fit, and HM harder to fit.
Solution? Leave it as it is. Good long-range missiles are already perfectly balanced with crappy short-range. Drake is already "Jack of all trades", so why should it be complete "Swiss knife ship"?
Quote: Also a general boost to all close range missiles would really give caldari some usefulness again.
No. That would be hybrids boost.
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Name one useful, cost effective missile boat besides the drake.
That's what I'am talking about. Why would you **** up the good old Drake with all this range crap and not ask CCP to make other missile boats for different purposes? Why should the Drake fit all your needs because it simply has no alternative?
GIVE US NEW MISSILE SHIPS CCP!
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:51:00 -
[461]
Originally by: Kail Storm
And the counter to this is, THE OTHER BC`s AT CLOSE RANGE CAN FIT WITH NO PROBLEM.
Did you competely miss my part where I said that close range launchers should be EASIER TO FIT?
Quote: You dont have much "Exp" In fighting I would venture to say, since you dont see how bad Missile Flighttime can be
I also suggested to increase the speed of long range missiles, as if you're within point range with close range missiles the flight time isn't that big of a deal.
Quote: rek you can do as many EFT warrior excercises as you want, Turrets are always better in large fights. 100 Canes will beat 100 Drakes, the canes will just need to get to 50km which they can do very easily.
How many reading exercises will it take for you to comprehend what I posted?
Quote: The reason for using the Drake is simple
yeah it is, every other missile boat sucks, and drake pilots aren't forced to choose between tank and gank for long range encounters.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:56:00 -
[462]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Abuta Beki The Drake is not overpowered. Performance-wise, it fits perfectly in-between good cruisers and battleships, which is exactly what a battle-cruiser should be like.
Drakes are slightly on the weak side in close range HAM setups, and are OP for long range HM setups. Solution? make HAMS easier to fit, and HM harder to fit.
Solution? Leave it as it is. Good long-range missiles are already perfectly balanced with crappy short-range. Drake is already "Jack of all trades", so why should it be complete "Swiss knife ship"?
Quote: Also a general boost to all close range missiles would really give caldari some usefulness again.
No. That would be hybrids boost.
So basically, your position is that missile boats in general suck, but you're ok with it, and anything I suggest to rebalance the drake and by extension boost caldari missile boats you're against. Since a hybrid boost would basically make the rokh, eagle and ferrox more useful, wouldn't a missile boost/rebalance make the rest of the caldari ships more useful too?
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:57:00 -
[463]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD I also suggested to increase the speed of long range missiles, as if you're within point range with close range missiles the flight time isn't that big of a deal.
And THAT will **** balance much more than all this Zealot/Angel stuff already done.
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Shin Dari
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Posted - 2010.10.25 17:58:00 -
[464]
The drake doesn't need to be nerfed. Drakes are specialists, before this tactic they were only used as PvE noobships. They have a good passive tank but poor DPS, which is a good starting point for noobs.
Want to have less Drakes in fleets -> Make the other BCs more useful or/and add more BCs. This will lead to more people trying other races.
Want less lag -> Significantly increase missile velocity, decrease missile flight time.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:01:00 -
[465]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD I also suggested to increase the speed of long range missiles, as if you're within point range with close range missiles the flight time isn't that big of a deal.
And THAT will **** balance much more than all this Zealot/Angel stuff already done.
How so? Just make missiles travel faster, while balancing out whatever side effect that has.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:02:00 -
[466]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 25/10/2010 18:06:00
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD How so? Just make missiles travel faster, while balancing out whatever side effect that has.
Find the formula of missile damage/hit calculation.
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD So basically, your position is that missile boats in general suck, but you're ok with it, and anything I suggest to rebalance the drake and by extension boost caldari missile boats you're against.
Have you ever tried to fly a missile boat? We simply don't need this kind of rebalance, where we loose the ability to use long range missiles without AWU at 5 and get an abomination named "HAML" as main weapon. I'll say more: It will kill Caldari completely. So make us a favor - don't mess up the last and only useful T1 PVP ship we currenlty have. For the love of heavenly CEO.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:06:00 -
[467]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD So basically, your position is that missile boats in general suck, but you're ok with it, and anything I suggest to rebalance the drake and by extension boost caldari missile boats you're against.
Have you ever tried to fly a missile boat? We simply don't need this kind of rebalance, where we loose the ability to use long range missiles without AWU at 5 and get an abomination named "HAML" as main weapon. I'll say more: It will kill Caldari completely. So make us a favor - don't mess up the last and only useful T1 PVP ship we currenlty have. For the love of heavenly CEO.
Blanket statements without any justification. grats. Also, there's these fancy things called power diagnostic units. You should check those out sometime. The rest of us have to use those to make our long range fits work too.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:09:00 -
[468]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Also, there's these fancy things called power diagnostic units. You should check those out sometime. The rest of us have to use those to make our long range fits work too.
No, thanks, I'am doing fine without PDUs. And I want to do so in the future.
Quote: Blanket statements without any justification.
At least they're smarter than the idea of messing up the fitting reqs of lauchers. I'll ask again: Have you actually flied both HAML and HML drakes?
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:10:00 -
[469]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji Find the formula of missile damage/hit calculation.
Missile flight speed does not factor into damage/hit.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:16:00 -
[470]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji No, thanks, I'am doing fine without PDUs. And I want to do so in the future.
Ah, here we go. Mad drake pilot that doesn't want to have to choose between tank and gank like the rest of us.
Quote: At least they're smarter than the idea of messing up the fitting reqs of lauchers.
Another blanket statement without justification. grats.
Quote: I'll ask again: Have you actually flied both HAML and HML drakes?
I've flown basically every T1 subcapital ship in the game. Of course all close range missiles in general suck. Hence, a boost to short range missiles is what I've suggested.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:25:00 -
[471]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji Find the formula of missile damage/hit calculation.
Missile flight speed does not factor into damage/hit.
Yeah I was wondering about that myself as the equation I found was from here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280&page=1#1
Explosion velocity, explosion radius, target sig radius and target velocity seem to be the important factors.
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Shin Dari
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:25:00 -
[472]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji No, thanks, I'am doing fine without PDUs. And I want to do so in the future.
Ah, here we go. Mad drake pilot that doesn't want to have to choose between tank and gank like the rest of us.
Drakes don't have gank.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:27:00 -
[473]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji Find the formula of missile damage/hit calculation.
Missile flight speed does not factor into damage/hit.
Really? Always thought that ship velocity calculated relatively to missile speed, not the overall value.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:28:00 -
[474]
Originally by: Shin Dari
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji No, thanks, I'am doing fine without PDUs. And I want to do so in the future.
Ah, here we go. Mad drake pilot that doesn't want to have to choose between tank and gank like the rest of us.
Drakes don't have gank.
I was paraphrasing from here:
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank. It is certain the range and buffer plus focused common skill set make it favourable for post-dominion fleet fights. and as I stated in my original post, the ship in small gangs or similar scenarios is more balanced since this focused setup is less appealing there where fights are close ranged and in smaller numbers where med slots count more.
Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.
It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
And my suggestion of boosting close range missile combat would at least help drakes get more gank. But they have arguably the best tank out of all the BC's. So damage vs. tank needs to stay in balance.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:46:00 -
[475]
Edited by: Exploited Engineer on 25/10/2010 18:47:55
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji Really? Always thought that ship velocity calculated relatively to missile speed, not the overall value.
Yes, really. What matters for missile damage is the absolute velocity (something that doesn't exist in real-life space, but hey.) of the target vs. the explosion velocity of the missile.
Otherwise, having fast missiles would really suck against slow targets, wouldn't it?
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:47:00 -
[476]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Quote: Ah, here we go. Mad drake pilot that doesn't want to have to choose between tank and gank like the rest of us.
And I have the right for this since my PG is lowest and I have 0 turret hp.
Quote: At least they're smarter than the idea of messing up the fitting reqs of lauchers.
Another blanket statement without justification. grats.
Quote: Of course all close range missiles in general suck. Hence, a boost to short range missiles is what I've suggested.
You also suggested to nerf long range. That's unacceptable, since long-range missiles as basic weapon system are more useful than shortrange at both pvp and ratting. Imagine ratting on HAML Drake. Crap, isn't it?
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:48:00 -
[477]
Originally by: Shin Dari Drakes don't have gank.
What, you never bored a target to death, or had it die from fits of laughter or old age?
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:53:00 -
[478]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
And I have the right for this since my PG is lowest and I have 0 turret hp.
The drake's PG is the lowest because it is a missile boat, and launchers require much less pg than turrets.
Quote: You also suggested to nerf long range. That's unacceptable, since long-range missiles as basic weapon system are more useful than shortrange at both pvp and ratting. Imagine ratting on HAML Drake. Crap, isn't it?
Solution: Fit an AB to your ratting drake. Oh but that means you wouldn't have enough tank for lvl 4's, right? I've hinted at nerfing long range missiles, but have decided to stay neutral on the missiles themselves, and focus on only making long range launchers require more pg.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 18:57:00 -
[479]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Solution: Fit an AB to your ratting drake. Oh but that means you wouldn't have enough tank for lvl 4's, right? I've hinted at nerfing long range missiles, but have decided to stay neutral on the missiles themselves, and focus on only making long range launchers require more pg.
I currently have AB on my ship while hunting 0.0 belts. And what I gonna say? Drone battleships shows ability to fly faster than AB'ed Drake.
Also, more PG will lead to necessary lvl 5 AWU, which will kill drake ratting since it is easier to fit up a Raven at a less time.
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.25 19:01:00 -
[480]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
And I have the right for this since my PG is lowest and I have 0 turret hp.
The drake's PG is the lowest because it is a missile boat, and launchers require much less pg than turrets.
Quote: You also suggested to nerf long range. That's unacceptable, since long-range missiles as basic weapon system are more useful than shortrange at both pvp and ratting. Imagine ratting on HAML Drake. Crap, isn't it?
Solution: Fit an AB to your ratting drake. Oh but that means you wouldn't have enough tank for lvl 4's, right? I've hinted at nerfing long range missiles, but have decided to stay neutral on the missiles themselves, and focus on only making long range launchers require more pg.
Allright remove long range missiles and remove artillery, railgun and beam turrets. Then we all have to fight in close range.
That is what you want, isn't it?
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 19:02:00 -
[481]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
I currently have AB on my ship while hunting 0.0 belts. And what I gonna say? Drone battleships shows ability to fly faster than AB'ed Drake.
oh belt ratting in 0.0? You should really have a MWD then. Its not like you need that much tank for scawy belt rats.
Quote: Also, more PG will lead to necessary lvl 5 AWU, which will kill drake ratting since it is easier to fit up a Raven at a less time.
I think all the cool kids use cruise missile ravens with a cloak. You know, the ones that are dedicated to ratting 23/7
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 19:05:00 -
[482]
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Allright remove long range missiles and remove artillery, railgun and beam turrets. Then we all have to fight in close range.
That is what you want, isn't it?
Fail attempt to misrepresent my position. If you haven't noticed, an arty cane with a MWD has about 0 pg left for a tank. The same is true of a beam harbinger or a railgun brutix. The same should be with the drake. MWD + long range launchers and there's not much PG left. If you want to fit a tank, you have to sacrifice some of your lows for PDU's or RCU's.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.25 19:12:00 -
[483]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Fail attempt to misrepresent my position. If you haven't noticed, an arty cane with a MWD has about 0 pg left for a tank. The same is true of a beam harbinger or a railgun brutix. The same should be with the drake.
If the drake then does the same kind of DPS as the first three, sure.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 19:14:00 -
[484]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD oh belt ratting in 0.0? You should really have a MWD then. Its not like you need that much tank for scawy belt rats.
You know how much cap MWD eats, don't you? Thats more like emergency RUN&PRAY system than a module which help you to reasonable increase speed at low cap cost.
Quote: I think all the cool kids use cruise missile ravens with a cloak. You know, the ones that are dedicated to ratting 23/7
I'd rather rat on Drake for the 3 hours, than instantly refit it at nearby friendly POS/Station and go to war then.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 19:22:00 -
[485]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer If the drake then does the same kind of DPS as the first three, sure.
Actually a drake does more DPS than an arty cane, beam harbinger, or railgun brutix @ 70km with at least double the buffer.
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji You know how much cap MWD eats, don't you? Thats more like emergency RUN&PRAY system than a module which help you to reasonable increase speed at low cap cost.
Its actually pretty simple. Warp to belt @ 0. Approach rats (which are usually what, 30 km away from warp in?). Pulse MWD for a few cycles till you get in range. Then turn it off until the rat gets out of your effective range.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 19:45:00 -
[486]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Its actually pretty simple. Warp to belt @ 0. Approach rats (which are usually what, 30 km away from warp in?). Pulse MWD for a few cycles till you get in range. Then turn it off until the rat gets out of your effective range.
Ever tried to navigate IN the belt, did ya?
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 19:52:00 -
[487]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Its actually pretty simple. Warp to belt @ 0. Approach rats (which are usually what, 30 km away from warp in?). Pulse MWD for a few cycles till you get in range. Then turn it off until the rat gets out of your effective range.
Ever tried to navigate IN the belt, did ya?
Are you seriously this stumped on how to belt rat? o\
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:00:00 -
[488]
[Hurricane, how about this] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Sensor Booster II Invulnerability Field II
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x4 Hammerhead II x1
no fit modules, range 57+36, 49k ehp dps without drones 310 dps
close range ammo 16+36km, with drones 604 dps
so hurricane may have little lower dps on max range, but if fight is little closer one hurrican has more dps than drake ever.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:03:00 -
[489]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Its actually pretty simple. Warp to belt @ 0. Approach rats (which are usually what, 30 km away from warp in?). Pulse MWD for a few cycles till you get in range. Then turn it off until the rat gets out of your effective range.
Ever tried to navigate IN the belt, did ya?
Are you seriously this stumped on how to belt rat? o\
Since I mentioned this is drones - you need to loot them to get profit. So... no, thanks, you can mix up missile launcher reqs for your own ship by roleplaying higher PG cost for them.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:05:00 -
[490]
Originally by: Bad Messenger [Hurricane, how about this] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Sensor Booster II Invulnerability Field II
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x4 Hammerhead II x1
no fit modules, range 57+36, 49k ehp dps without drones 310 dps
close range ammo 16+36km, with drones 604 dps
so hurricane may have little lower dps on max range, but if fight is little closer one hurrican has more dps than drake ever.
Also, I'd rather fit it with 2 medium neutrs to gain advantage in 1v1 combat. (which is impossible on Drake) since it's PG says "LOL NO".
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pushbyte ii
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:21:00 -
[491]
Ok I will humour your argument about drakes being OP/imba. Maybe instead of making 1 thing less effective and ****ing some people off, you could suggest making others things more effective, making everyone happy. I don't understand this mmo mentality of making things worse as a way to improve something. If you want to improve something make things better, hence the definition of 'improvement'.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:25:00 -
[492]
Originally by: Bad Messenger [Hurricane, how about this] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Sensor Booster II Invulnerability Field II
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x4 Hammerhead II x1
no fit modules, range 57+36, 49k ehp dps without drones 310 dps
close range ammo 16+36km, with drones 604 dps
so hurricane may have little lower dps on max range, but if fight is little closer one hurrican has more dps than drake ever.
Arty tracking at 16km is atrocious. I'd also like to point you to the EHP department.
[Drake, pew] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
That fits with a 5% CPU implant, or you could drop the BCU and fit another PDU and make it fit without any implants. With 3 BCU's that does 462 missile DPS, and if you fight up close it does 561 DPS with drones. Its 411 and 510 with 2 BCU's and 2 PDU's. Also note that the EHP is around 100k, with a nice passive tank on top.
Also, with the 5% CPU implant you could also fit a RCU, DC II and a medium neut, while maintaining the 411/510 DPS regiment.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:29:00 -
[493]
Originally by: pushbyte ii Ok I will humour your argument about drakes being OP/imba. Maybe instead of making 1 thing less effective and ****ing some people off, you could suggest making others things more effective, making everyone happy. I don't understand this mmo mentality of making things worse as a way to improve something. If you want to improve something make things better, hence the definition of 'improvement'.
I dunno who's argument you are humoring, but in my argument I did exactly what you said. I proposed to make close range missiles of all types more effective at hitting things at close range, in addition to lower pg needs for the launchers, where long range ones would require more pg needs.
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Kaurapa
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:33:00 -
[494]
The Drake is obviously being utilised at a much higher level than the other tier 2 BCs in 0.0 combat. So much so it has overtaken ALL BS hulls in day to day usage in many alliances. Many people seem to be looking at that situation and saying, "the Drake is over powered in the current fleet environment - nerf it."
The big question CCP need to ask is: Why has there been a sudden shift toward Drake usage in 0.0 fleet combat? After all CCP haven't given the Drake a direct boost in any way over the last 6 months.
The problem is not that the Drake. In my opinion the problems are: 1. Battleship hulls are easy to hit at close range when you are in a BC and below, and a Battleship's turrets (whether they be hybrid, projectile, laser or missile) can not hit a small sig radius ship (BC and below) for effective comparable damage. 2. Logistics ships (in a crusier sized hull) provide a high level of replenishment to any ship with a high buffer tank. 3. Bonuses are flat % based. Therefore a 30% reduction in a battle/cruiser sig radius will eliminate any damage a BS can do to said battle/crusier hull. While a 30% reduction in a Battleship sig radius will result in little effect when a Battleship fleet is fighting a Battle/cruiser fleet.
Taking these things into account a fleet commander can: 1. Eliminate all BS from his fleet 2. Pick BC/Crusiers with highest buffer and still able to do mediocre/moderate DPS. The Zealot/Drake 3. Stack the fleet with high aligned logistics numbers. 10 Scimis/Gaurdian for every 100 Drakes/Zealots 4. Get bonuses that increase buffer/decrease sig
One of those options involves high Skill Points and high ISK if you have a bad loss. The other can utilise 5mil sp characters and can cost as little as a 45mil per player in a black screened fight.
If CCP nerf the Drake they are attempting to fix a symptom and showing they fail to understand the basic concept of cause and effect.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:36:00 -
[495]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Actually a drake does more DPS than an arty cane, beam harbinger, or railgun brutix @ 70km with at least double the buffer.
Maybe. But the Drake is a one trick pony as far as damage types go. Don't do kinetic damage and instantly lose 25% of your dps. The other ships either do two damage types at once, or have some options when selecting their damage type. If you're good with a smartbomb, you could also nullify some of the Drakes DPS - something that the other ships don't have to worry about.
Also, if you're shorter ranged, you can burn right towards the Drake without having to worry about transversal speed.
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:40:00 -
[496]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD ...That fits with a 5% CPU implant...
200m more isk for drake fitting :), seriously i think no one would use that on 0.0 drake clone.
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pushbyte ii
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:41:00 -
[497]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
...in my argument I did exactly what you said...
...long range ones would require more pg needs...
That's actually the opposite of what I said.
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:52:00 -
[498]
Edited by: Bad Messenger on 25/10/2010 20:54:59 If you have flown shield tanked missile ships you will end to notice that if you fit long range + tank + dps, you will need lot of CPU, and if you try to fit close range + tank + dps you will need CPU and PG.
Why should drake be different form current line?
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:52:00 -
[499]
Originally by: Kaurapa The Drake is obviously being utilised at a much higher level than the other tier 2 BCs in 0.0 combat. So much so it has overtaken ALL BS hulls in day to day usage in many alliances. Many people seem to be looking at that situation and saying, "the Drake is over powered in the current fleet environment - nerf it."
The big question CCP need to ask is: Why has there been a sudden shift toward Drake usage in 0.0 fleet combat? After all CCP haven't given the Drake a direct boost in any way over the last 6 months.
The problem is not that the Drake. In my opinion the problems are: 1. Battleship hulls are easy to hit at close range when you are in a BC and below, and a Battleship's turrets (whether they be hybrid, projectile, laser or missile) can not hit a small sig radius ship (BC and below) for effective comparable damage. 2. Logistics ships (in a crusier sized hull) provide a high level of replenishment to any ship with a high buffer tank. 3. Bonuses are flat % based. Therefore a 30% reduction in a battle/cruiser sig radius will eliminate any damage a BS can do to said battle/crusier hull. While a 30% reduction in a Battleship sig radius will result in little effect when a Battleship fleet is fighting a Battle/cruiser fleet.
Taking these things into account a fleet commander can: 1. Eliminate all BS from his fleet 2. Pick BC/Crusiers with highest buffer and still able to do mediocre/moderate DPS. The Zealot/Drake 3. Stack the fleet with high aligned logistics numbers. 10 Scimis/Gaurdian for every 100 Drakes/Zealots 4. Get bonuses that increase buffer/decrease sig
One of those options involves high Skill Points and high ISK if you have a bad loss. The other can utilise 5mil sp characters and can cost as little as a 45mil per player in a black screened fight.
If CCP nerf the Drake they are attempting to fix a symptom and showing they fail to understand the basic concept of cause and effect.
Good post.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:52:00 -
[500]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer
Maybe. But the Drake is a one trick pony as far as damage types go. Don't do kinetic damage and instantly lose 25% of your dps. The other ships either do two damage types at once, or have some options when selecting their damage type. If you're good with a smartbomb, you could also nullify some of the Drakes DPS - something that the other ships don't have to worry about.
Its one thing I never liked about some caldari ships, where their only effective damage comes from one type of missile. I wish that 5% per level bonus was applied to all damage types. Also, wasting high slots for a smartbomb just in case you run into missile boats isn't exactly...smart
Quote: Also, if you're shorter ranged, you can burn right towards the Drake without having to worry about transversal speed.
But then you make your sig radius 500% bigger and are almost guaranteed to get max damage.
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD ...That fits with a 5% CPU implant...
200m more isk for drake fitting :), seriously i think no one would use that on 0.0 drake clone.
Thats only if you want to fit a medium neut or pump out more DPS. The other fit works without implants, so we're looking at the 411/510 DPS with 100k EHP.
Originally by: pushbyte ii
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
...in my argument I did exactly what you said...
...long range ones would require more pg needs...
That's actually the opposite of what I said.
Did you ignore the boost I suggested for short range missiles? I made one thing not more or less effective, but require the pilot to think about his needs instead of make a one size fits all tank/DPS fit, and made another thing (short range missiles) much more effective. It's exactly what you said.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:52:00 -
[501]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD I dunno if you're trolling or just plain ******ed (you are a drake pilot, afterall ). So big scawy asteroids keeping you from flying directly to big scawy rogue drones is why you oppose any of my changes?
Quote: you are a drake pilot, afterall
Oh, now I clearly see your position. If you don't like the ship only because it seems OP to you - then give CCP a petition with your opinion on it. No need to keep ****ing our brains if you just can't simply understand missile platform purpose and how should it differ from turret platforms to be effective. You just want to bring pvp to the same standard where low range guns outdamage the long-range and are easy to fit, as long as sniper weapons are **** and can't be properly fitted without ****ing up something else. You think this is "improvement", but this will totally screw up a Drake concept of a tough armed, long ranged but slow and easy targetable and hittable ship which suck at close range and can't tackle anything without breaking it's own tank. And you want to make it short-range, slow, barely damaging smallsig fast targets (which are the most targets coming to HAMLs optimal), BS-like signature and either good tanked but unable to catch anyone or ****ty tanked ship with ability to tackle it's enemy. But we don't need it since we have lots of acceptable tanked, faster and more damaging ships for this ranges, who won't loose their tank for fitting the web/scram/dis. And we also have blaster Ferox, which will deal with this role you want to give to Drake with ease (that doesn't mean that Ferox will rock, it will just do this job better than ****ty short-ranged Drake) just by fitting blasters on it and having almost same EHP as Drake.
Quote: So big scawy asteroids keeping you from flying directly to big scawy rogue drones is why you oppose any of my changes?
Changes you offered will obviously **** up Drake ratting as much as all drake pvp. And also it's stupid to bring all ships, no matter how they tanked, no matter what they use as their weapon to the same standard, which is suitable for turret armor ships but for missile ships it's just like making them delayed-damage turrets with no crits, low damage to small sig targets and 100% chance to deal that crappy damage.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 20:59:00 -
[502]
Originally by: Bad Messenger Edited by: Bad Messenger on 25/10/2010 20:54:59 If you have flown shield tanked missile ships you will end to notice that if you fit long range + tank + dps, you will need lot of CPU, and if you try to fit close range + tank + dps you will need CPU and PG.
Why should drake be different form current line?
Ok, let me make a shield buffer cane and check it out...oh wait, I have more free PG. Shield buffer harbi? its lol, but kids still use it. It frees up enough pg to fit Heavy pulses. Passive shield myrm with autocannons? There's plenty of free pg on that setup.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:00:00 -
[503]
Edited by: Exploited Engineer on 25/10/2010 21:01:11
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Its one thing I never liked about some caldari ships, where their only effective damage comes from one type of missile. I wish that 5% per level bonus was applied to all damage types.
That's what Ravens are for. And they actually get 33% more DPS at Caldari battleship 5.
Oh, and those shield-tanked Drakes with their inflated sigs probably make excellent targets for a Ravens cruise missile batteries, which can hit from well above the Drakes maximum engagement range. I guess that's the counter for Drake fleets.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:08:00 -
[504]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
...big whiny rant...
Apparently you missed the sarcastic joke in there, but if you are gonna whine about how its hard to navigate through an asteroid belt, I will make fun of you.
Oh and FYI, every other race seems to do just fine belt ratting with a MWD + close range fit.
Sure, a ferox can fit blasters and almost have the same EHP as a drake at close range, but it certainly cannot come close to the EHP and DPS that the long range drake can. Change obviously scares you, because you seem blinded by your fear of change to actually see how this would benefit caldari ships in general.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:12:00 -
[505]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer
That's what Ravens are for. And they actually get 33% more DPS at Caldari battleship 5.
Compared to what? All I see is a 25% RoF bonus at caldari BS V for ravens.
Quote: Oh, and those shield-tanked Drakes with their inflated sigs probably make excellent targets for a Ravens cruise missile batteries, which can hit from well above the Drakes maximum engagement range. I guess that's the counter for Drake fleets.
Hey! A legitimate use for a cruise raven in pvp . Would be nice if a torp raven could be useful in some fashion tho...
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Keras Authion
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:14:00 -
[506]
I'd like to comment on the HAML idea. Should you get that done, the drake needs a speed boost to catch up with anything, as it is the slowest BC. Otherwise it just becomes the slow and too short range BC that can't hit anything of it's size or smaller. Of course you can (and probably have to even with a speed boost) fit a MWD and a web (+ a warp disrupter in small gangs), but it kills the tank and cap recharge is awful in drake, so it would need a cap recharge/capacity boost too. Also the drake has the lowest PG which would need another boost to make room for the MWD while being able to mount anything. Should the HAMs still need painting, add one mandatory mid, so now 3 or 4 of 6 slots used for tank are gone. Good luck fitting any sort of tank there that is comparable with other short range BCs.
Personally I like the drake as it is. It can fight at all ranges, but if you let the enemy get close, you lose because of the higher DPS the short range guns have. Also if you have 20 drakes flashing their red brackets at you at 60 km (it's over 10 seconds of flight, 15 for low skills) you can warp out and take no damage. There's nothing keeping you there. Your fleet will get closer in that time the enemy shoots you and you can warp back in no time. Should you not pay attention, you deserve to burn. Tanking it is your choice, unless it's because of the lag in which case it is the lag that needs to be fixed, not the drake or HMs. Or you could get a covops near the drakeblob and warp there, negating the advantage the drakes have. The strong tank is there to keep the drake alive while the missiles slowboat at the target, which is not true for long range cannons. I'm not saying that the LR cannons don't need tank, but they can get a few free shots in the time the missiles take to get there.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:21:00 -
[507]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Actually a drake does more DPS than an arty cane, beam harbinger, or railgun brutix @ 70km with at least double the buffer.
Flight time at 70km with lvl 5 skills is about 8 seconds. You are totally ignoring this in your argument, and have been for about 8 pages. So, a reasonable request would be for you to do a simulation where you compare the actual damage potential of all 4 of those ships/fits over the course of a typical 2 minute fight.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:23:00 -
[508]
Originally by: Keras Authion I'd like to comment on the HAML idea. Should you get that done, the drake needs a speed boost to catch up with anything, as it is the slowest BC.
Maybe the slowest base speed (I haven't checked, so I dunno), but a trimarked harbinger is slower than a drake. But in this next fit, pretend that the HML's are HAML's and that the new HAML's don't need at TP to do full damage to a BC class or larger, oh and assume the original CPU requirments for HAML's, and this would fit:
[Drake, pew] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
So you'd have 677 DPS, 85k EHP, no need for a TP, and 2 free EWAR slots.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:24:00 -
[509]
Edited by: Exploited Engineer on 25/10/2010 21:27:13
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Compared to what? All I see is a 25% RoF bonus at caldari BS V for ravens.
The 25% ROF (actually, this cuts 25% off the time between two launches) translates into 33% additional DPS, since it allows you to launch 33% more missiles in a given time.
The Drake only get 25% additional DPS through its +25% kinetic missile damage bonus.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:27:00 -
[510]
Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 25/10/2010 21:30:49 Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 25/10/2010 21:29:56 Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 25/10/2010 21:29:31
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Keras Authion I'd like to comment on the HAML idea. Should you get that done, the drake needs a speed boost to catch up with anything, as it is the slowest BC.
Maybe the slowest base speed (I haven't checked, so I dunno), but a trimarked harbinger is slower than a drake. But in this next fit, pretend that the HML's are HAML's and that the new HAML's don't need at TP to do full damage to a BC class or larger, oh and assume the original CPU requirments for HAML's, and this would fit:
[Drake, pew] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
So you'd have 677 DPS, 85k EHP, no need for a TP, and 2 free EWAR slots.
On what planet does that fit get 600 dps? It gets about half that, overloaded and requires and implant to fit.
ps. "Dumb ****er" you put too much effort into this troll.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:27:00 -
[511]
Originally by: Von Kroll
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Actually a drake does more DPS than an arty cane, beam harbinger, or railgun brutix @ 70km with at least double the buffer.
Flight time at 70km with lvl 5 skills is about 8 seconds. You are totally ignoring this in your argument, and have been for about 8 pages. So, a reasonable request would be for you to do a simulation where you compare the actual damage potential of all 4 of those ships/fits over the course of a typical 2 minute fight.
So for 6.7% of the fight the drake only absorbs damage while it waits for the first missile salvo to hit, but as it typically has 100% more EHP than the fits I don't see this as significant. Even if the new drake under my suggestion can't fit both LSE's and BCU's at the same time, its still can have higher EHP than the other ones.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:30:00 -
[512]
Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 25/10/2010 21:33:56
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Keras Authion I'd like to comment on the HAML idea. Should you get that done, the drake needs a speed boost to catch up with anything, as it is the slowest BC.
Maybe the slowest base speed (I haven't checked, so I dunno), but a trimarked harbinger is slower than a drake. But in this next fit, pretend that the HML's are HAML's and that the new HAML's don't need at TP to do full damage to a BC class or larger, oh and assume the original CPU requirments for HAML's, and this would fit:
[Drake, pew] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
So you'd have 677 DPS, 85k EHP, no need for a TP, and 2 free EWAR slots.
On what planet does that fit get 600 dps?
If you copy and paste that fit, it does not do 600 DPS. However, I originally said to pretend that the launchers were HAML's (reading FTL), so you could get an idea of how things could fit under my propoal for less PG for HAML's and more PG for HML's. HAML drake can do 600+ DPS atm.
Although I did make a mistake is that 677 DPS HAML drake (Terror rage) is under the conditions of 3 BCU's. With 2 BCU's it would be 614 DPS.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:33:00 -
[513]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
So for 6.7% of the fight the drake only absorbs damage while it waits for the first missile salvo to hit, but as it typically has 100% more EHP than the fits I don't see this as significant. Even if the new drake under my suggestion can't fit both LSE's and BCU's at the same time, its still can have higher EHP than the other ones.
Why don't you do the complete analysis instead of going with your gut here? Plus, make sure you get rid of drone damage, and I made a mistake--it would be 12.5 seconds of flight time instead of 8.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:33:00 -
[514]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 25/10/2010 21:43:44
Originally by: Kaurapa The big question CCP need to ask is: Why has there been a sudden shift toward Drake usage in 0.0 fleet combat? After all CCP haven't given the Drake a direct boost in any way over the last 6 months.
Because Drakes are obviously cheap as dirt and can be produced and fitted in vast quantities. And also it have a nice Zerg ability to transmute quantity in quality. Let me explain this: What is Drake? It's a cheap, mass produced ships without any clearly overpowered stats or abilities, but not crappy at anything else too. Golden middle. Let's take one and compare it's damage output, tank and ability to hold it's target still and easy hittable with any other ship specifically fitted for some purpose like either tackling, DPS or tank. Solo pvping on Drake is hard due to missile mechanics, so it is hard to kill, but a bit hard to die too. 1v1 chances isn't good for drake. Okay, let's take two. With the concentrated power and nice tank they will be able to kick 2v1 every ship of BC class and even most of BS. In 2v2 they have better chances then their opponents since focusing their fire drakes will be able to kill one ship and in most cases both drakes will survive because of buffer tank and simply kick the last enemy together. Three to five drakes usually can take out one more target than the number ships in their fleet. (ofc I mention BC based fleets) Still due to focusing power and nice tank. And this progress further.
Call that "Phenomena of Drake" if you like.
As you can see, the more drakes in fleet you have - the more tough your drake fleet gets. That's especially useful in large fleet, where focusing fire of 50+ ships, no matter which kind of weapon they have, will blow up the poor guy called "primary" in any kind of sub-capital sized ship will be popped in seconds. But summary tank of drake fleet is incredible, since it takes your enemies a bit more time (some additional seconds) to blow a single drake, and that spare seconds of each drakes additional lifetime will result in better fleet surviveability.
So it's just like bees or ants. Single isn't danger at all. Two is still so-so. Three and more is a problem for you, and the more you got - the bigger this problem gets. But how can CCP nerf that? Killing the tank abilities will vaporize the weak solo-PVP possibilities of Drake. That's the dilemma, not the damage or range and tank, but ability to live longer than any other BC fleets. And this is not ability of the single ship, it's ability of drake fleet itself. To nerf it CCP surely would need either evolve drake, to make it more self-sufficient by trading it's tank to DPS in reasonable amounts (probably wouldn't kill ratting since it will use less time to kill a rat and start killing another, you'll just need to change targets more often than now.) OR adding bug-hunting BC ship, which will be able to effectively compensate "Phenomena of Drake" with it's abilities or fittings. Maybe even new kind of weapons. Also, today we have nice, but small insecticide - gangs of 15-20 bombers, who warps to 0 at drake fleet and bomb it with approx 2k damage each, resulting in massive fleet summary EHP loss and even some deaths of crappy-fitted drakes. Shame someone just thinks that ships of one type must be countered by ships of same type.
How long would "Dumb ****er" speak about increasing dps by putting HAMLs as main weapons until he realizes that drakes doesn't need high personal dps at all? That's pretty much communist ship, so it gain it's power not from range, damage or tank, but from collectivism, comradeship and tome of "Capital", which is standard equipment for every true Caldari capsule? P.S. Also seems like Achuras have Mao's photo as well.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:45:00 -
[515]
Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 25/10/2010 21:46:37
Originally by: Von Kroll
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
So for 6.7% of the fight the drake only absorbs damage while it waits for the first missile salvo to hit, but as it typically has 100% more EHP than the fits I don't see this as significant. Even if the new drake under my suggestion can't fit both LSE's and BCU's at the same time, its still can have higher EHP than the other ones.
Why don't you do the complete analysis instead of going with your gut here? Plus, make sure you get rid of drone damage, and I made a mistake--it would be 12.5 seconds of flight time instead of 8.
If you take a 720 arty cane, with a cycle time of 8.1 seconds with 3 gryo's, using Tremor M you get a volley damage of 2294. So assuming both the drake and the cane pilot shot at the exact same time, the cane could put out 4588 damage at 0 resists (2 volleys) before the first missile showed up from the drake. I'm not seeing your point here, as the drake has 2x the EHP against the cane in this case.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:50:00 -
[516]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 25/10/2010 21:33:56
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Keras Authion I'd like to comment on the HAML idea. Should you get that done, the drake needs a speed boost to catch up with anything, as it is the slowest BC.
Maybe the slowest base speed (I haven't checked, so I dunno), but a trimarked harbinger is slower than a drake. But in this next fit, pretend that the HML's are HAML's and that the new HAML's don't need at TP to do full damage to a BC class or larger, oh and assume the original CPU requirments for HAML's, and this would fit:
[Drake, pew] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Stasis Webifier II Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile [empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
So you'd have 677 DPS, 85k EHP, no need for a TP, and 2 free EWAR slots.
On what planet does that fit get 600 dps?
If you copy and paste that fit, it does not do 600 DPS. However, I originally said to pretend that the launchers were HAML's (reading FTL), so you could get an idea of how things could fit under my propoal for less PG for HAML's and more PG for HML's. HAML drake can do 600+ DPS atm.
Although I did make a mistake is that 677 DPS HAML drake (Terror rage) is under the conditions of 3 BCU's. With 2 BCU's it would be 614 DPS.
Can we pretend that pulse = beam range too? I'd love to hit 250km with scorch.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:53:00 -
[517]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
If you take a 720 arty cane, with a cycle time of 8.1 seconds with 3 gryo's, using Tremor M you get a volley damage of 2294. So assuming both the drake and the cane pilot shot at the exact same time, the cane could put out 4588 damage at 0 resists (2 volleys) before the first missile showed up from the drake. I'm not seeing your point here, as the drake has 2x the EHP against the cane in this case.
Take resistances into account, but assume both ships hit for full damage with each volley.
Starting a time 0, both ships fire their first volley. At time zero, the first Cane volley hits. At time 8.25, the second Cane volley hits. At time 12.5, the first Drake volley hits. At time 16.5, the third Cane volley hits. At time 19.2, the second Drake volley hits.
Now, that's the example. Plug the resistances in and do the full analysis to justify your argument, instead of pulling arbitrary ship metrics out of the air. I for one have issues with the pure non-scientific nature of your whole concept.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 21:57:00 -
[518]
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Can we pretend that pulse = beam range too? I'd love to hit 250km with scorch.
You obviously didn't read the whole thread, and now have jumped in the middle of something that you have no idea what we discussed before. My original suggestion was to decrease the PG requirments of HAMs and increase the PG requirments of HML's so that a drake pilot would actually have to think about what he fits for long range combat. The poster that I replied to made the claim that the HAM drake under my proposal would end up needing most of its mid slots for EWAR to be effective. The fit I showed was that if the PG requirments of the HAML's would be the same as HML's you could still have plenty of mid slot left for tank.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 22:10:00 -
[519]
Originally by: Von Kroll
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
If you take a 720 arty cane, with a cycle time of 8.1 seconds with 3 gryo's, using Tremor M you get a volley damage of 2294. So assuming both the drake and the cane pilot shot at the exact same time, the cane could put out 4588 damage at 0 resists (2 volleys) before the first missile showed up from the drake. I'm not seeing your point here, as the drake has 2x the EHP against the cane in this case.
Take resistances into account, but assume both ships hit for full damage with each volley.
Starting a time 0, both ships fire their first volley. At time zero, the first Cane volley hits. At time 8.25, the second Cane volley hits. At time 12.5, the first Drake volley hits. At time 16.5, the third Cane volley hits. At time 19.2, the second Drake volley hits.
Now, that's the example. Plug the resistances in and do the full analysis to justify your argument, instead of pulling arbitrary ship metrics out of the air. I for one have issues with the pure non-scientific nature of your whole concept.
I for one have no idea what your whole point is. My point is that at 70 km, a drake has 2x the EHP as other BC's shooting at the same distance, and higher DPS as well. The reason being that fitting for a drake you don't need to think about tank or DPS when you fit up for that kind of distance, like what post #124 said.
And I'm not gonna go through a whole simulation, unless you happen to have some magic software that you can give me. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that something with more DPS and more EHP will beat the ship with less DPS and less EHP in an ideal simulation like you want me to do. But to tickle your fancy I plugged in the damage profiles for Tremor M and scourge fury HM's. The cane has 45k EHP vs. Scourge fury, and the drake has 110k EHP vs. tremor m. The drake dishes out 411 DPS, with a 12.5 second initial damage lag. The cane dishes out 278 DPS (this is all without drones). So after 12.5 seconds the drake has 106.5k EHP left (110k - 12.5*278). I hope you can see what happens next.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.25 22:34:00 -
[520]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 25/10/2010 22:36:48
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD My point is that at 70 km, a drake has 2x the EHP as other BC's shooting at the same distance, and higher DPS as well. The reason being that fitting for a drake you don't need to think about tank or DPS when you fit up for that kind of distance, like what post #124 said.
And at <20 km it suck in technical (non theoretical) DPS 3:2 (without counting crits, which drake takes alot), move up to 20% slower and has signature of a battleship when tanked proprely with Fury-type missiles in launchers.
To make them suitable for close combat you don't only need to change launcher requirements, but increase missile "piercing" power for low signatures, increase it's speed at least 10% more and decrease sig penalty for T2 missiles, shield extenders and rigs.
But my simple solution is: you want easy long-range based BC? Use drake, every race can train for it. Wanna close combat? Hail to Hurri! There is no need making Hurri sniper or Drake as close assault ship, since you have Drake for long range and Hurri for close. Don't wanna train Drake? Ask CCP for new ships or fly on something else. Noone forces u to use turret ships for long range, since noone forces you to use drake in close combat. You're just trying to bring balance at the point where all ships of same class differs only with model and pew-pew video effect. It's like fighting fire with fire. There are swords and there are bows. Sword can't shoot and, if thrown at the enemy, will make em laugh, but it's also madness to fight with bow against sword in melee.
And you're the person who actually complain about swords unable to shoot arrows and bows being crappy in melee combat! Sure we should make elastic sword which can be used as string to lauch projectiles and metal sharp bow especially for your genius mind!
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.25 23:01:00 -
[521]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
And at <20 km it suck in technical (non theoretical) DPS 3:2 (without counting crits, which drake takes alot), move up to 20% slower and has signature of a battleship when tanked proprely with Fury-type missiles in launchers.
To make them suitable for close combat you don't only need to change launcher requirements, but increase missile "piercing" power for low signatures, increase it's speed at least 10% more and decrease sig penalty for T2 missiles, shield extenders and rigs.
Thats sort of what I have been supporting indirectly all along. I believe I've used the term "making close range missiles easier to hit their targets". Whatever stat you need to modify to do that that, fine. Also, a trimarked harbi is slower than a drake, get your facts straight.
Quote: But my simple solution is: you want easy long-range based BC? Use drake, every race can train for it.
Actually only caldari can train for drakes, genius. You also have trouble navigating through belts Also training for ship x or race y is never a solution to the problem. Its a mere attempt to turn a blind eye to the problem. I hate telling newer kids to don't bother with caldari if you want to pvp. Caldari should be able to bring more to the pvp table than it currently does.
Quote: You're just trying to bring balance at the point where all ships of same class differs only with model and pew-pew video effect.
Uh, I dunno if you notice, but it sort of is like that with the 3/4 ship types that are mostly used. One specializes in speed, one specializes in armor and cap usage, and the other uses drones and UP turrets.
Quote: And you're the person who actually complain about swords unable to shoot arrows and bows being crappy in melee combat! Sure we should make elastic sword which can be used as string to lauch projectiles and metal sharp bow especially for your genius mind!
Straw man and RL analogy fail.
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.26 00:25:00 -
[522]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Allright remove long range missiles and remove artillery, railgun and beam turrets. Then we all have to fight in close range.
That is what you want, isn't it?
Fail attempt to misrepresent my position. If you haven't noticed, an arty cane with a MWD has about 0 pg left for a tank. The same is true of a beam harbinger or a railgun brutix. The same should be with the drake. MWD + long range launchers and there's not much PG left. If you want to fit a tank, you have to sacrifice some of your lows for PDU's or RCU's.
If you Shield Tank a Cane a PDS Barely hurts you, where as the Drakes 4 Slots it cuts it off by a 3rd needing one, which it does unless you have perfect skills to fit.
Also really how much DPS do you think a HML Drake should have? It`s only 400 Now, and Harbi/ Canes both hit to 24km, with Good DMG and CLose range weapons, where as the Ham Drake needs Jav`s which do way less DMG and have horrible tracking and nerf your own speed.
HML`s are the only way to fly a Drake, and because of that there is give and take, they do more Long Range DPS against BC`s and BS`s, but only 180ish DPS Vs Armor Hacs and less to Tacklers Etc also with missile Lag its a bigtime disadvantage. And at Close range it is way underpowered DMG wise, so its very give and take.
Arty`s and Lasers hit oncoming Frig/Tacklers with Ease, they also at 50 km Hit Hacs easily for full DMG, where as drakes get 40% on target DMG to Zealot gangs etc.
So it is already balanced: HML Drake at LR Does more to BC [Kinetic Weak] and above@55km but has to wait 9ish Secs, so otherfleet gets to primary 1.8 Times, before missiles hit, also at LR anything under BC is severly cut in half DMG wise, AB ARM Hacs=40% DPS of Drake.
HML at CR is inferior to most BC`s, and ALL BS`s.
There is a dfeinate Balance and if you cant see that you dont want to, Buff other Missile Ships, leave Drake alone. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.26 00:42:00 -
[523]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD My point is that at 70 km, a drake has 2x the EHP as other BC's shooting at the same distance, and higher DPS as well...And I'm not gonna go through a whole simulation, unless you happen to have some magic software that you can give me.
Look, DPS and EHP are numbers that the EFT designers put together to compare ships. For the most part, relative comparisons are valid using EFT. But, when you get into a specific argument saying the Drake has twice the firepower and twice the tank as any other Battlecruiser at twice the range, you need to produce a quantitative analysis in order to prove your theory. You don't know that those numbers are replicated in-game, because you haven't done the testing yourself. You haven't even done a cursory simulation to test those numbers. You have a hunch, and EFT's mechanic supports your hunch. That's all you've proved, that in EFT, the relationship you describe exists between the Drake and the Arty Cane.
I have a copy of an MS Excel spreadsheet that a guy put together to simulate the zoom climb capabilities of a WWII fighter aircraft, taking in every variable he could simulate, and assigning a mathmatical formula to crunch the numbers. It took him 16 hours to produce, and was a very compelling part of his argument. This analysis is so much simpler, and MS Excel and a complete simulation of the hypothetical I described could be a huge reinforcement to your argument, all in the course of about an hour's worth of work.
Or, another resource would be to hop on the test server (even better than a mathematical simulation) and test your hunch. Keep the logs and then analyze them after you and your buddy line up at 70km and face off. Then, come back in here and post the results, scientific-like, to reinforce your argument.
Until then, you're relying on nothing more than a simple comparative resource, that may or may not be completely accurate. After all, EFT tells me my Drake has 80,000-or so EHP, but the in-game fitting tool shows me I have 30,000 or so. Which one is right? When I get greased in-game, I've never had a HML Drake that took 80,000 or so points of damage. So how can I rely on EFT to be a precise model of what my ship is capable of? There's a discrepancy there, just like I believe there's a discrepancy in your comparison of the two ships. I'm offering you an opportunity to convince me...
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.26 00:54:00 -
[524]
Originally by: Kail Storm
If you Shield Tank a Cane a PDS Barely hurts you, where as the Drakes 4 Slots it cuts it off by a 3rd needing one, which it does unless you have perfect skills to fit.
Also really how much DPS do you think a HML Drake should have? It`s only 400 Now, and Harbi/ Canes both hit to 24km, with Good DMG and CLose range weapons, where as the Ham Drake needs Jav`s which do way less DMG and have horrible tracking and nerf your own speed.
HML`s are the only way to fly a Drake, and because of that there is give and take, they do more Long Range DPS against BC`s and BS`s, but only 180ish DPS Vs Armor Hacs and less to Tacklers Etc also with missile Lag its a bigtime disadvantage. And at Close range it is way underpowered DMG wise, so its very give and take.
Arty`s and Lasers hit oncoming Frig/Tacklers with Ease, they also at 50 km Hit Hacs easily for full DMG, where as drakes get 40% on target DMG to Zealot gangs etc.
So it is already balanced: HML Drake at LR Does more to BC [Kinetic Weak] and above@55km but has to wait 9ish Secs, so otherfleet gets to primary 1.8 Times, before missiles hit, also at LR anything under BC is severly cut in half DMG wise, AB ARM Hacs=40% DPS of Drake.
HML at CR is inferior to most BC`s, and ALL BS`s.
There is a dfeinate Balance and if you cant see that you dont want to, Buff other Missile Ships, leave Drake alone.
So because HAML's suck the drake should be left alone? I dunno if you read, but I fully support making HAM's less crappy. As per post 124, drakes sacrifice nothing for long range. Sure, its the only viable fit under the current setup, but just because everything else sucks doesn't mean that the close range missiles shouldn't be buffed and long range ones balanced accordingly.
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R Mika
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Posted - 2010.10.26 01:09:00 -
[525]
Sure, take the easy way out and nerf the Drake. Its not the Drake thats the problem.
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masternerdguy
Gallente Valor Inc. Valor Empire
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Posted - 2010.10.26 01:27:00 -
[526]
CCP: "We're only nerfing a few hitpoints" You: "How many hitpoints does it take, CCP, before it becomes wrong? A thousand? A hundred thousand? A MILLION! HOW MANY DOES IT TAKE CCP."
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.26 01:45:00 -
[527]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Originally by: Kail Storm
If you Shield Tank a Cane a PDS Barely hurts you, where as the Drakes 4 Slots it cuts it off by a 3rd needing one, which it does unless you have perfect skills to fit.
Also really how much DPS do you think a HML Drake should have? It`s only 400 Now, and Harbi/ Canes both hit to 24km, with Good DMG and CLose range weapons, where as the Ham Drake needs Jav`s which do way less DMG and have horrible tracking and nerf your own speed.
HML`s are the only way to fly a Drake, and because of that there is give and take, they do more Long Range DPS against BC`s and BS`s, but only 180ish DPS Vs Armor Hacs and less to Tacklers Etc also with missile Lag its a bigtime disadvantage. And at Close range it is way underpowered DMG wise, so its very give and take.
Arty`s and Lasers hit oncoming Frig/Tacklers with Ease, they also at 50 km Hit Hacs easily for full DMG, where as drakes get 40% on target DMG to Zealot gangs etc.
So it is already balanced: HML Drake at LR Does more to BC [Kinetic Weak] and above@55km but has to wait 9ish Secs, so otherfleet gets to primary 1.8 Times, before missiles hit, also at LR anything under BC is severly cut in half DMG wise, AB ARM Hacs=40% DPS of Drake.
HML at CR is inferior to most BC`s, and ALL BS`s.
There is a dfeinate Balance and if you cant see that you dont want to, Buff other Missile Ships, leave Drake alone.
So because HAML's suck the drake should be left alone? I dunno if you read, but I fully support making HAM's less crappy. As per post 124, drakes sacrifice nothing for long range. Sure, its the only viable fit under the current setup, but just because everything else sucks doesn't mean that the close range missiles shouldn't be buffed and long range ones balanced accordingly.
OMG once and for all, Drakes suffer alot to be good at Long Range, and are only good long Rang VS SOME TARGETS, Im a Drake Pilot with this and another Toon and a Zealot Minni Pilot for my others, and this is how it goes.
Drake does good Long Range DMG in fights where the enemy has to stay and fight, Like Sov Wars, otherwise they warp off after firing 2 Volleys faster and picking off 2 of your Drakes before the "Missile Lag" Doesnt matter anymore.
Secondly it Does well versus enemies that are CR BS where your Drake Hits for Full DMG and can Kite the range of Scorch, being 55km. This is why Drakes were brought out so they could murder CR RR BS ships like the Geddon, Blaster Mega etc ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now if the enemy wants to Leave the Drakes are no good, 12 Secs to hit at 70km means almost all ships can warp off before missiles hit, where as turret gangs can actually fire as the align and pop 1 or 2 Ships even retreating because its 0 Lag in hitting.
Also they get Pwned by LR BS Setup`s badly as there sigs are as big as a BS and 70km is a LR BS`s most powerful Range, they can use Close Ammo` types at 65kmish range, while having almost double the tank.
Lastly SHooting Sniper Hacs is very Dangerous for Drakes, the last 2 months have caught them off guard but now that FC`s know how to counter Blobs it will become way way more balanced, all they do is AB in opposite Direction so there Transversal is 0 but there speed hugely reduces missiles by 60ish percent if they can hit them at all, so @ 70km against a Sniper Hac the hacs do 240-300 DPS and the Drakes do a base of 180 because speed, all while Kinetic is there only DMG type.
People always Compare ships vs eachother in fights, Like Canes vs Drakes or Harb vs Drake to expplain how 1 is better this is wrong, you need to compare what situations they are best in.
Cane whoops Drake on anti Tackle and Small Gang support having Nuets and awesome speed. Harbi`s kill Drakes in Normal [non Drake fleets] because with Armor reps from carrier`s etc they are beasts.
Also All turreted Ships have better chance VS tacklers. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.26 01:50:00 -
[528]
Also where is CCP`s official statement on Drake nerf? Is there one?
Can someone link or guide me there thx. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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Sakura Shiro
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Posted - 2010.10.26 02:15:00 -
[529]
Originally by: Von Kroll Until then, you're relying on nothing more than a simple comparative resource, that may or may not be completely accurate. After all, EFT tells me my Drake has 80,000-or so EHP, but the in-game fitting tool shows me I have 30,000 or so. Which one is right? When I get greased in-game, I've never had a HML Drake that took 80,000 or so points of damage. So how can I rely on EFT to be a precise model of what my ship is capable of? There's a discrepancy there, just like I believe there's a discrepancy in your comparison of the two ships. I'm offering you an opportunity to convince me...
I'd just be happy if the anti drake people would stop posting pve fits. Its like comparing apples and oranges ffs. Lv 4 tank....what you bring to the battlefield....2 different animals entirely.
For the eft warriors. Don't look at dps, range for these drakes with no resist rigs, no dcuII and just 2 invuls. Look at resists. Pay particular attention to EM...stacked invuls do not fill the caldari em hole very well (penalties with that). For giggles and grins...drop in an em rig in place of extend rig. look at the resists. Numbers should look better. Now...drop a bcu II and put in a dcuII (keep the pdu II, kind of needed). Damn...em resists is actually passable now (even the minmatar are going to have to splurge a bit for RF EMP to try and an kill you with any efficiency now...before plain ole t1 was to be feared).
POint of this exercise....to fix just one glaring hole on a drake....you nerfed both dps (we pulled a bcu II remember) and tank (we pulled 1 extend rig). Who ever says drake makes no fitting caveats to fly in fleets....needs to actually fly these things in pvp and stop using eft.
And this em hole...for pvp you want fixed. Bored one day in null sec, friend wanted to show me his jagaur (knew I was x-training to them at some point...wanted to show me the fun it would be). Raven with no em resists rigs and jsut invuls like these pve fits getting posted here....active t2 xlarge sb was getting pushed nicely with 200mm AC's spewing RF emp. 3 extends is big ehp...also a hole type damage ammo eats through relatively quickly.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.26 03:37:00 -
[530]
Originally by: Kail Storm
OMG once and for all, Drakes suffer alot to be good at Long Range
Because 400 DPS at 70 km with 100k EHP is "suffering". Sure, they're not so good at close range, but thats a HAML problem, which I'm in favor of boosting, and then making the drake not as good for long range in return.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.26 03:50:00 -
[531]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 26/10/2010 03:56:03
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD I've used the term "making close range missiles easier to hit their targets".
And I've already said: ask CCP for a new ship specializing on that, instead of turning Drake upside-down.
Quote: Also, a trimarked harbi is slower than a drake, get your facts straight.
And it have six low slots, so 2 nano's will make it superior.
Quote: Actually only caldari can fly drakes, genius.
Say it to my black friend who flies most BC and half of each race BS with ease. Also, you mentioned you flown all BCs or so. But now you say that only Caldari can fly Drake. Doesn't compute.
Quote: I hate telling newer kids to don't bother with caldari if you want to pvp.
How about a nice portion of raepist tengu?
Quote: Caldari should be able to bring more to the pvp table than it currently does.
And CCP don't need to mess with the Drake to do that. They need do leave at as it is now and boost hybrid ships.
Quote: Uh, I dunno if you notice, but it sort of is like that with the 3/4 ship types that are mostly used. One specializes in speed, one specializes in armor and cap usage, and the other uses drones and UP turrets.
And the Drake is sort of ship which uses shield tank with long range missiles, so what is wrong for you in that?
Quote: Straw man and RL analogy fail.
It's metaphor, not an analogy, smartass.
Originally by: Von Kroll After all, EFT tells me my Drake has 80,000-or so EHP, but the in-game fitting tool shows me I have 30,000 or so.
And killboard shows me like I have 25k or so. And 'cane has 20k or so. The only damn PVP which shown up more than 50k HP was the daredevil who catched me afk.
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Gareck Lodius
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.10.26 03:53:00 -
[532]
Well if they nerf the Drake Caldari will be the most nerfed race in the game
So where is the balance between the races CCP, Caldari pilots are on the end of every single nerf bat either directly or indirectly.
Most of the Caldari ships are now useless for fleet work Raven useless Drake to be nerfed Falcon nerfed Rockh no one flies to expensive great range useless tank / cap Phoenix great for Pos bashing useless for anything else because it cant fit guns ( how about it CCP guns for the phoenix)
So my question is when is the Caldari race going to get a fair go and stop being the worst race in the game once upon a time they where the best.
Only God Can Judge Me |
doubles ondoubles
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Posted - 2010.10.26 03:58:00 -
[533]
Its seems like the Drake its self isn't the issue but HMLs. They are good for 70800 meters with lvl 5 skills on any ship. Drake has no bonus to range.
And i will point out again that the OP used all lvl 5 skills with his example, with 3 BCUs, and a dmg control. I for one would fit 3 BCUs and a nano. I also don't have all lvl 5 skills and would be putting out around 420 dps. Also drake fleets seem to use jaming drones alot more then dmg ones.
So here is my Drake nerf proposal. For the Drake
No more drone bay Change resist bonus to a sheild recharge bonus. So at lvl 5 BC it will have its current recharge rate. (PVE bonus) Give it a boost in sheilds to make up for it so it can get around 50k ehp reasonably fit.
Now for all caldri ships Sheild EM resists become 20%
Now For HML Max range of T2 furys goes down to around 55km New mod that can increas this, make it a mid slot one Rebalance ROF and Alpha so its DPS will remain the same but will deal lower alpha dmg.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.26 04:04:00 -
[534]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
And I've already said: ask CCP for a new ship specializing on that, instead of turning Drake upside-down.
The cerberus and sacrilege suck because HAML's suck. Its also why the drake is not good at close range either. Drake suffers nothing for long range.
Quote: And it have six low slots, so 2 nano's will make it superior.
And also have **** poor DPS.
Quote: Say it to my black friend who flies most BC and half of each race BS with ease. Also, you mentioned you flown all BCs or so. But now you say that only Caldari can fly Drake. Doesn't compute.
Did I say I couldn't fly a drake there? Dumbass
Quote: How about a nice portion of raepist tengu?
Because newer players can easily train for a tengu, and afford one
Quote: And CCP don't need to mess with the Drake to do that. They need do leave at as it is now and boost hybrid ships.
And that boosts what, 3 more ships (unless you count the moa as being worth flying)? Boost hybrids and missiles. Unless you wouldn't like a missile boost for some reason.
Quote: And the Drake is sort of ship which uses shield tank with long range missiles, so what is wrong for you in that?
Drake suffers nothing for long range combat, and has the option for close range DPS, which currently sucks and needs a boost but thats beside the point.
Quote: It's metaphor, not an analogy, smartass.
http://thesaurus.com/browse/metaphor
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.26 04:14:00 -
[535]
Originally by: doubles ondoubles They are good for 70800 meters with lvl 5 skills on any ship.
They'd be good if they'll won't leave a traget 12-15 seconds to shoot first or even reverse and warp out.
Quote: No more drone bay
No damn way, man. Without a spare drone damage small ships can eat drake alive due to ****ty damage to them.
Quote: Change resist bonus to a sheild recharge bonus. So at lvl 5 BC it will have its current recharge rate. (PVE bonus)
And then everyone will complain about Drakes regenerating up to 500 hp/s.
Quote: Give it a boost in sheilds to make up for it so it can get around 50k ehp reasonably fit.
Currently it has 50-60k usable EHP. Other is just crappy armor and hull bonus.
Quote: Now for all caldri ships Sheild EM resists become 20%
And everyone will start to hit it with thermal.
Quote: Max range of T2 furys goes down to around 55km
Check this in game, currently missile optimal only goes straight for stationary target. Optimal for moving target depends on direction and speed.
Also, one note: Fury's are not pvp missiles. Because of crappy capability to hit small ships most people rather use Precision or fraction missiles, which put up much less DPS.
Quote: Rebalance ROF and Alpha so its DPS will remain the same but will deal lower alpha dmg
. There is no such thing as "alpha" on missile ship. Also remember, that it can't blow anything but wrecks and cargo's with it's volley due to damage sig/speed dependance.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.26 04:24:00 -
[536]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Quote: The cerberus and sacrilege suck because HAML's suck.
Then don't mess with HMLs, they're good. Why should it be nerfed to bring up the HAMLs? I see no clue.
Quote: Drake suffers nothing for long range.
And it has no bonuses for long range. Only kinetic missile damage bonus. So missiles will be same on every ship which can fit it.
Quote: And also have **** poor DPS.
Drake uses only 4 low slots where the only damage mod is Ballistic Control. And harbi will give out like 1600 m/s with still 4 slots available.
Did I say I couldn't fly a drake there?
Oh, thought you're Amarr scum.
Quote: Because newer players can easily train for a tengu, and afford one
Yeah, let's nerf the Drake and bring tengu to it's price!
Quote: Drake suffers nothing for long range combat
AND NO BENEFITS FROM IT.
Quote: http://thesaurus.com/browse/metaphor
>implying thesaurus was ever righ
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.26 04:25:00 -
[537]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
No damn way, man. Without a spare drone damage small ships can eat drake alive due to ****ty damage to them.
Although I agree that the drone bay should stay, your reasoning is garbage. Please show me a frig that can break the passive tank on a drake.
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Sakura Shiro
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Posted - 2010.10.26 04:37:00 -
[538]
hm's aren't the problem either.
Here is what happens to hm's in a mixed fleet. Drake pilot targets victim A, fires. Rapier does it, vaga does it, harb does it. Out of these 4 ships guess who is not on the kill mail? Guess Drake, internet cookie for you. MIxed fleets, guns kill target while our missiles are mid air. These aren't op weapons. they excel in one area. As do the other 3 ships I mentioned who vaporized my targer before I got a chance to get on the km.
But but...what happens when drakes jump us at 70km. How about this....warp out and back in? HAve a fleet of sr in reserve to jump the drakes? Or....break down and counter drake with drake. Tactics 101....if your troops are dying to the gun bunnies (pet name for arty in the military) and its because you don't have arty to counter it, do not have a force in reserve to flank/airstrike to silence the guns, and you keep pushing on....yes...you will lose. Napoleonic warfare...died along time ago. No need to revive it in eve.
Your ahacs are dying becuase they are bringing knives (sr favored weapons) to gun fights (drake missile spam) . One time in a drake...I wandered jsut a bit too close to sr ships, they hit...way out of their optimals but making the shields move. Gave me 2 choices...stay there and die or reposition. I chose the latter. Not being tackled...an easier and smarter choice. Never fight an enemy on his terms if you can help it. Sorry, as a drake pilot I will not be nice enough to give you easy kills. I will go long. Its a 2 way street...in many of my drake deaths, a tricksy fc dropped sr on us. This works well. If your fc's are having you do charge of the light brigade into drakes 60km's out...have them read how the charge of the light brigade ended. Cliff notes version: they all died.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.26 04:38:00 -
[539]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Then don't mess with HMLs, they're good. Why should it be nerfed to bring up the HAMLs? I see no clue.
Because drakes get too much bang for the buck with HML's. There's no drawback for fitting long range like every sniper setup suffers.
Quote: Drake uses only 4 low slots where the only damage mod is Ballistic Control. And harbi will give out like 1600 m/s with still 4 slots available.
A 'standard' harbi fit uses 3-4 low slots for a tank (800 or 1600mm plate, 2 EANM's or equivalent and a DC II. The rest of the slots are used for more damage, and 90% of harbis are armor rigged -> slower speed. In the same breath I could say that you could make a drake faster by fitting nanos, but nano drakes are almost nonexistent.
Quote: Yeah, let's nerf the Drake and bring tengu to it's price!
Uh, what?
Quote: AND NO BENEFITS FROM IT.
Because having 2x the EHP of any other sniper setup in its class is not a benefit, or OP
Quote: >implying thesaurus was ever righ
Implying that its wrong?
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Koosalo
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Posted - 2010.10.26 04:48:00 -
[540]
Agreed nerf the drake, as stated in OP they can field the largest buffer and have the longest range. either nerf the tank or the range.
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.26 05:08:00 -
[541]
Originally by: doubles ondoubles Its seems like the Drake its self isn't the issue but HMLs. They are good for 70800 meters with lvl 5 skills on any ship. Drake has no bonus to range.
And i will point out again that the OP used all lvl 5 skills with his example, with 3 BCUs, and a dmg control. I for one would fit 3 BCUs and a nano. I also don't have all lvl 5 skills and would be putting out around 420 dps. Also drake fleets seem to use jaming drones alot more then dmg ones.
So here is my Drake nerf proposal. For the Drake
No more drone bay Change resist bonus to a sheild recharge bonus. So at lvl 5 BC it will have its current recharge rate. (PVE bonus) Give it a boost in sheilds to make up for it so it can get around 50k ehp reasonably fit.
Now for all caldri ships Sheild EM resists become 20%
Now For HML Max range of T2 furys goes down to around 55km New mod that can increas this, make it a mid slot one Rebalance ROF and Alpha so its DPS will remain the same but will deal lower alpha dmg.
OMG....Please dont post for at least 3 months until you learn the game outside EFT...You are horrible, lets gimp a already gimp`d anti tackle platform that is slow with 0 Drones making there be absolutely no way of fighting Tacklers who are fast.
-Do you guys realize that most peeps will never have Missile Projection 5 and other skills to make its range 70km.
-Did you realize you lose 4 Km of "Speed Up" and if the target is burning in the opposite direction it also slashes Range.
-Most Drake FC`s realize 55km is the Range you fire at, 45 for chasing Armor Hacs, as they will burn away @ 450-550 m/s so at 60 km its about 10 secs which means 5k range, so speed up+Burning= 9km off range which is almost never at 5 missile projection.
Doubles you really are out of the loop and want to gimp the Drake with no drone bay and make it basically insta Die the second a Tackler with an Ab gets it, Hell a Jag or god forbid Dram going 1800 m/s with a 50/m sig would get what .5% dmg 15 Drakes Couldnt kill it in 15 mins before getting hotdropped by a Mom...Lol
Just ******ed 100%, OMG peeps need to think.
Also Drake never gets 100k EHP, that is insane and untrue as ALL PVP DRAKES NEED LONG POINTS and Webs in reality to kill Tacklers...You cant use NO TACKLE FITS AND COMPARE THEM WITH TACKLED FITS OF OTHER SHIPS.
Drake gets 80k EHP and 400 missile DPS against BS/BC but stuck with all Kin DMG gets 290ish DPS using other DMG Types, Against Arm Hac does 180ish DPS with kin resist of Munnin or Zealot does 90ish DPS.
-------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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RagnarRox
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Posted - 2010.10.26 05:17:00 -
[542]
A Harbi with no Tackle is 70k EHP, ALso Armo has major advantages in Fleets that arent just "Drakes" Since ARM RR is by far more popular.
You obvioulsy have no fleet exp, up until 4 months ago when NCDOT/Evoke/CH and us Started using Drake Blobs everyone thought we were crazy, now our trend we started is King.
Its lol how fail tacticians want to nerf a ship that is easily countered.
Wait till you get 90% Archons on field and are in your Drake lol, then tell me how win they are. Harbi by far is best Fleet ship since it can get major Armor reps from carrier, and Arm Logi`s which are by far more popular.
Outside DRAEK ARMY Shield isnt used in fleets, give them 1 Damned ship you greedy bastards.
Also if you fly Minni, or Harbi Get LR weps on and Go with the Drakes 10 Secs after battle starts and you will survive and get tons of kills. These DRAEK ARMYS are usually a mix of Drakes, Myrm`s, LR Brutti`s Ferox`s, Harb`s Canes...But its Easier to describe a whole group of Drakes in Bttle Report.
TL DR Top being Newbs and asking for nerfs, right now there are 10 ships more unbalanced, and Drakes have been fine since 2007 with no arguments except laughter about how bad they were.
Now peeps use them and, WWWAAAAAHHHHH, WAAAHHHHHH Nerfs IT PLS BCAZE I CANTS FIGHTS RIGHT Take what you Can, when you can. |
Unfamed II
NPC Corporation
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Posted - 2010.10.26 05:58:00 -
[543]
Drake is fine, other Caldari ships are not to so much. That is why it is so popular. -b |
Kayla Kestrel
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Posted - 2010.10.26 06:05:00 -
[544]
Originally by: RagnarRox Also if you fly Minni, or Harbi Get LR weps on and Go with the Drakes 10 Secs after battle starts and you will survive and get tons of kills.
How do you figure? If you aren't in a drake your chances of being primary increase considerably simply because you're twice as easy to kill.
Originally by: RagnarRox These DRAEK ARMYS are usually a mix of Drakes, Myrm`s, LR Brutti`s Ferox`s, Harb`s Canes...But its Easier to describe a whole group of Drakes in Bttle Report.
If the drake really is balanced, then in a shield fleet there should be somewhat even numbers of shield arty canes and drakes right? Unless one of those two has some kind of massive advantage that renders flying the other a pointless waste of time
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Kirkas Palkki
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Posted - 2010.10.26 06:24:00 -
[545]
Edited by: Kirkas Palkki on 26/10/2010 06:27:16
Originally by: Kaurapa The Drake is obviously being utilised at a much higher level than the other tier 2 BCs in 0.0 combat. So much so it has overtaken ALL BS hulls in day to day usage in many alliances. Many people seem to be looking at that situation and saying, "the Drake is over powered in the current fleet environment - nerf it."
The big question CCP need to ask is: Why has there been a sudden shift toward Drake usage in 0.0 fleet combat? After all CCP haven't given the Drake a direct boost in any way over the last 6 months.
The problem is not that the Drake. In my opinion the problems are: 1. Battleship hulls are easy to hit at close range when you are in a BC and below, and a Battleship's turrets (whether they be hybrid, projectile, laser or missile) can not hit a small sig radius ship (BC and below) for effective comparable damage. 2. Logistics ships (in a crusier sized hull) provide a high level of replenishment to any ship with a high buffer tank. 3. Bonuses are flat % based. Therefore a 30% reduction in a battle/cruiser sig radius will eliminate any damage a BS can do to said battle/crusier hull. While a 30% reduction in a Battleship sig radius will result in little effect when a Battleship fleet is fighting a Battle/cruiser fleet.
Taking these things into account a fleet commander can: 1. Eliminate all BS from his fleet 2. Pick BC/Crusiers with highest buffer and still able to do mediocre/moderate DPS. The Zealot/Drake 3. Stack the fleet with high aligned logistics numbers. 10 Scimis/Gaurdian for every 100 Drakes/Zealots 4. Get bonuses that increase buffer/decrease sig
One of those options involves high Skill Points and high ISK if you have a bad loss. The other can utilise 5mil sp characters and can cost as little as a 45mil per player in a black screened fight.
If CCP nerf the Drake they are attempting to fix a symptom and showing they fail to understand the basic concept of cause and effect.
You other people should re read this post - It pretty much sums up the situation. It really doesnt matter whats better a drake or a harbinger, what matters is the the overall fleet composition. If drakes were overpowered they would be as common in small gangs as dramiels.
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Sakura Shiro
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Posted - 2010.10.26 07:02:00 -
[546]
Edited by: Sakura Shiro on 26/10/2010 07:05:23 Edited by: Sakura Shiro on 26/10/2010 07:04:35
Originally by: Kayla Kestrel How do you figure? If you aren't in a drake your chances of being primary increase considerably simply because you're twice as easy to kill.
half right....hard to kill and not as immediate a threat as the gun ships who in their sweet spot ranges push out decent dps at a fast rate.
Look at hictors, by your logic they would be killed last cause they are very tanky. Caps on the field however....fc wants them dead with extreme prejudice. They pose a threat to cap movement, they must die. Support, kill them, do it, do it now.
Drakes are lower threat ships and tanky. why they die last...(despite these claims of op). here is why:
Drake...in a fleet, odds are very good at least 1/4 of them just fired a salvo of hm at a target that will be dead before they even hit. That is at least 4 seconds they aren't firing at a live target. 60 drakes, 15 just killed 4 seconds and 7 missiles per drake to kill a target tha blew up after they released. And this happens per salvo, the whole fight. Fly drakes in pvp for a few months...you will get ****ed with amount of money you waste on CN scourge on targets you never hit.
Why I started to blow off fc target calls. they started with A or Z....I started a few letters down/up or just shocked the **** out of the guy with a name beginning with l,m,n,o (probably had him going...hey, its not my turn to be hit yet wtf...). Most drakes in fleet do this (smart ones anyway, we gave up hopes a long time ago of hitting the first couple ships called by fc). So drakes end up not being as focused fired as the gun ships (or else we burn way more ammo killing space dust).
This works to your advantage. I have had many targets warp out on me. Unfocused drake fire wasn't pushing thier tank fast enough, they were not being pointed/bubbled, they left to not be blown up.
Fly drakes people...will see how op missiles are. I have spent millions on faction ammo...that hit nothing. OP yes....at draining a wallet and not even getting a km from it sometimes.
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Nuts Nougat
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.10.26 08:26:00 -
[547]
Holy crap this thread. ---
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Desya Dak'ann
Caldari Special Space Marines
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Posted - 2010.10.26 10:00:00 -
[548]
Why should CCP nerf a ship that is good, accept your crappy HAC blobs cant hack (pun not intended) a Drake blob. Drakes place the fundamental new player Battlecruiser, they are cheap, reliable and have multi-purposes. CCP, don't nerf the Drakes like you nerf'd titans Rule 7: Thou Shalt not whine. |
Psihius
Caldari Anarchist Dawn U N K N O W N
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Posted - 2010.10.26 10:05:00 -
[549]
To my liking drake is perfect. What has to be done, is boosting other races a little so their BC can be fitted more easily.
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Xerb Erebus
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Posted - 2010.10.26 10:22:00 -
[550]
Originally by: Psihius drakes just do a better job with tanking and shooting that a Raven.
try with bc from other races to do lvl4/lvl4 wh space, good luck. nerf drake pls.
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Psihius
Caldari Anarchist Dawn U N K N O W N
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Posted - 2010.10.26 10:37:00 -
[551]
Edited by: Psihius on 26/10/2010 10:43:14 Edited by: Psihius on 26/10/2010 10:41:49 Edited by: Psihius on 26/10/2010 10:38:57
Originally by: Xerb Erebus
Originally by: Psihius drakes just do a better job with tanking and shooting that a Raven.
try with bc from other races to do lvl4/lvl4 wh space, good luck. nerf drake pls.
I know that, but I was comparing with Raven. I think you can tank any BC to handle the damage, it's the DPS part that is almost impossible to achieve here due to lack of range, witch means problems with guns, not the ships themselves. But keep in mind, that missiles by themselves are a weapon of long range, it's in their nature. A missile can travel 3-4 times more range than most powerful artillery,but it can still miss or be avoided (or target can hide while it's flying). Here these drawbacks are represented via speed and signature tank and time of flight.
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Nuts Nougat
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.10.26 10:37:00 -
[552]
Originally by: Xerb Erebus
Originally by: Psihius drakes just do a better job with tanking and shooting that a Raven.
try with bc from other races to do lvl4/lvl4 wh space, good luck. nerf drake pls.
Wait why is after several years this suddenly a problem? --- Drakes are fine, it's an ok ship that scales very well with numbers. Apoc was probably even more popular a year ago and is now hardly used. I predict the same will happen to drakes "soon", nerf or no nerf. ---
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Dartuho
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Posted - 2010.10.26 11:45:00 -
[553]
Originally by: Kaurapa
3. Stack the fleet with high aligned logistics numbers. 10 Scimis/Gaurdian for every 100 Drakes/Zealots
It is completly unresonable - current fleet doctrine calls for 20% of the fleet in logistics ships or 20-25 Scimis for every 100 drakes.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.26 11:53:00 -
[554]
Quote: try with bc from other races to do lvl4/lvl4 wh space, good luck. nerf drake pls.
PVE performance should never be grounds to nerf a ship for PVP. Besides, Drakes run level 4s ridiculously slowly. Sure they can tank them but good luck with a decent mission completion time.
You know Ishtars can do level 5s? ZOMG NERF TEH ISHTARZZZZZ!1!!11
Idiot. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.26 12:40:00 -
[555]
Originally by: Xerb Erebus
Originally by: Psihius drakes just do a better job with tanking and shooting that a Raven.
try with bc from other races to do lvl4/lvl4 wh space, good luck. nerf drake pls.
you sir are an idiot.
I successfully ran lvl4s solo in: phantasm (shield buffer) cynabal (shield buffer) hurricane (shield buffer) cyclone (active tanked) cerb (shield buffer) zealot (active tanked pulse and beam fit) hawk, retribution
although for the AFs it is more fun to do them in a group. most of the fits used are my PVP fits, just with the MWD dropped for an AB. the hac fits even run c3 WHs solo.
the common believe that you need a BS to run lvl4s in decent speed is pretty funny. it is just the most boring way to do it and most people can do them semi AFK in a BS.
and as others said ... if you use PVE performance to nerf a ship for PVP you failed even more.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.26 12:45:00 -
[556]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Although I agree that the drone bay should stay, your reasoning is garbage. Please show me a frig that can break the passive tank on a drake.
As it is now, PVP drake setup lacks the shield regen (Maybe I have nice EHP, but with extender rigs and additional ballcons instead of relays regen is like 30hp/s at it's peak. (also note that. Shield regen isn't constant, EFT shows only highest value, which is only achievable at approx 30-40% of shields max capacity and pretty poor when it is 90% HP or so.) And if you have only Fury missiles (which you call OP) - popular ship like Dramiel (yeah, yeah, nerf angels already! Game is turning to Dramiel Online) can slowly, but effectively break your tank. And with it's regen and agility you can't even damage it enough (this is why I say: Screw Fury missiles in pvp fit, they're suck at it) to break it's tank. But if you have at least 5 T1 light drones - you can say "Bye" to Dramiel.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.26 15:00:00 -
[557]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
As it is now, PVP drake setup lacks the shield regen (Maybe I have nice EHP, but with extender rigs and additional ballcons instead of relays regen is like 30hp/s at it's peak. (also note that. Shield regen isn't constant, EFT shows only highest value, which is only achievable at approx 30-40% of shields max capacity and pretty poor when it is 90% HP or so.) And if you have only Fury missiles (which you call OP) - popular ship like Dramiel (yeah, yeah, nerf angels already! Game is turning to Dramiel Online) can slowly, but effectively break your tank. And with it's regen and agility you can't even damage it enough (this is why I say: Screw Fury missiles in pvp fit, they're suck at it) to break it's tank. But if you have at least 5 T1 light drones - you can say "Bye" to Dramiel.
Yes, keep the drone bay, lolz argument tho. Sure, the dramiel is probably OP, but then again it does cost more anwyay. Dramiels usually have 200 DPS tops, which will be just enough to get over your shield recharge (combined with resists which help absorb the damage). OMG a couple super expensive pirate frigs could kill a drake. Give them about a half our, and if one could kill you in that amount of time, you could always jump thru a gate or have backup before it "melts" you.
Quote: Missiles are already drawback! ****ing learn to read alredy.
Yes, if you try to snipe kids on a gate they can run off before your missiles arrive. But in any other engagement where the opposing force will stay you're at a 12 second damage disadvantage. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
Quote: Since it is calculated with all armor and hull and mixed resists - EHP sucks as real argument in forum pvp.
Every other ship had useless EHP from their untanked shields, armor or hull. Even if a drake comparatively melts once the shields are down, thats still time you could survive if reps are thrown on you. Also the shield recharge tank means drakes can absorb a lot of small DPS, where on armor ships that would count towards whittling away the armor.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.10.26 15:17:00 -
[558]
Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 26/10/2010 15:20:22 Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 26/10/2010 15:18:42
Quote: Yes, if you try to snipe kids on a gate they can run off before your missiles arrive. But in any other engagement where the opposing force will stay you're at a 12 second damage disadvantage. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
Which is why a drake has a thicker tank imagine that, ships that have a 3:2 (almost 4:2 @ max range) attack rate advantage over the drake have a 2/3 (at range) tank. My god the horror and imbalance 33% less attack>damage rate but 33% or less tank makes the drake op!.
Seriously you are and idiot.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.26 15:32:00 -
[559]
Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 26/10/2010 15:36:46
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 26/10/2010 15:20:22 Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 26/10/2010 15:18:42
Quote: Yes, if you try to snipe kids on a gate they can run off before your missiles arrive. But in any other engagement where the opposing force will stay you're at a 12 second damage disadvantage. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
Which is why a drake has a thicker tank imagine that, ships that have a 3:2 (almost 4:2 @ max range) attack rate advantage over the drake have a 2/3 (at range) tank. My god the horror and imbalance 33% less attack>damage rate but 33% or less tank makes the drake op!.
Seriously you are and idiot.
Try double the EHP, genious @ 70km. You can consult post 124 while you're at it. Oh and at 70km the drake's DPS is comparable to other sniper BC's, and can be better, depending on the target.
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Tub Chil
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Posted - 2010.10.26 16:02:00 -
[560]
omg omg
people in this thread say that
Drake is a sniper ship
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Thalen Draganos
Caldari DarkStar 1 Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.10.26 16:29:00 -
[561]
Every race has it's high points and low points but Caldari are the most nerfed race in the game. We get one good ship and everyone is like, "OMG NERF IT CCP" when there are simple tactics that can counter it. An example would be, Drake blob warps at range and hit's just fine. Warp in an Armor HAC gang on top of them and the Drakes melt. No matter what, every ship has it's strengths and weaknesses, but with proper fits, training, and FCs with half a brain, you can always counter it. On a personal note: leave the drakes alone. They are just fine doing what they do well. From the ashes of betrayal We Are Reborn ALL HAIL THE BLAZE OF GLORY BEE |
Mara Abraham
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.26 16:36:00 -
[562]
Greetings:
From a solo PVP perspective, most pvp drake pilots who have T2 can take on any other BC (other than another drake) that is t2 fitted; the only possible exception I've seen is a drake against mrym, but the drake still comes out ahead. I've seen curse pilots die against Drakes as well as some other T2 hacs.
I know people will say solo pvp is dead, but solo is out there... and in my opinion, if any ship of the same hull size vastly (i.e. you stand no chance to win against... the best you can hope for is to get away) outperforms other ships of the same class, then something should be done to allow skill to play a greater role.
Thank you.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.26 17:37:00 -
[563]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD
Oh and at 70km the drake's DPS is comparable to other sniper BC's, and can be better, depending on the target.
It had bloody well better be, considering that it takes 15 seconds for the missiles to get there...
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Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2010.10.26 17:38:00 -
[564]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 26/10/2010 17:47:48 This thread is a farce.
Like alot of other people, from Furb Killer around page 6, and onwards have already pointed out:
- The Drake is a shield tanked ship. - The Drake has a tank bonus and a damage bonus (common among many ships percieved as good). - All shield tanked ships tank in their mids and fit damage mods in their lows. - The Drake is a missile ship. - All missiles have a high alpha balanced by TTA (and TTA, as some LR-dude pointed out, lose impact in lag). - All cruiser-sized missile ships have a reversed balance, making their SR launchers harder to fit than their LR launchers.
[insert random snide remark involving CCP Chronotis and cpt. Obvious]
Apart from that, i'm going to throw out my usual "the game has never been better balanced than now". I'm glad not everything is overstacked numbers of fleet BS or Dreads, and i kind of enjoy that MS-blobs make numbers a less dominating factor (even if MS would deserve the attention the Drake is getting, far more). I much rather see 20 MS dominating the idiocy of volume-oriented SOV and POS warfare than 100 Dreads tbh. Ludicrous MS is the perfect short-term counter to the lunacy of volume-oriented, feudal, 0.0 mechanics.
Sure there are a bunch of things that need fixing, but i can't reminisce within the past 4-5 years there being this many potential gang compositions out there, countering each other. You still see BS being used (Abaddon-centric gangs, agile Pest-oriented gangs, Domiblobs; to some degree even Sniper BS and RRBS), you see multiple HAC gangs being used, from A-HAC to S-HAC to N-HAC (even if small-medium nano might be a bit ursurped by cloaky gangs); which lead onto to those various cloaky gangs from BS/Stationary-Bombers to BOps-drops to FGT-issue tech III and recon roaming gangs. You see plenty of BC gangs, centered around Canes in one instance and Drakes in another.
If there is one problem with the Drake, then it is that it's so dominant within the Caldari line-up; because there are so few other ships that intergrate into popular gangs or do well on their own; and those that do adapt, usually do that into the Drake gang (ie., When do you bring a Vulture? When you have Drakes to give bonuses; when do you bring a shield-tanked HIC? To a Drake gang, because it's the only gang in the game that focus on a heavy shield tank). In all other instances, heavy tanks = armor and light/agile buffer = shield. Hooray for variety.
Screwing the Drake over leave the game with less, Caldari with even less and actual shield tanking lumbering as well as missile PvP.
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Jekyl Eraser
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Posted - 2010.10.26 17:48:00 -
[565]
I can't fly Drake but here's my take on the issue...
If scimitar remote repping is the problem, change the 5% shield resistance bonus to 5% shield capacity bonus.
If range is the problem, reduce HML flight time a bit.
If EHP (or EHP&DPS EFT warrior stats) is the problem change 5% shield resistance bonus to 5% shield recharge bonus. (this also weakens scimitar remote repping) |
Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.26 18:04:00 -
[566]
@ Rek you are stupid.
Removing dronebay will murder drakes, why? Not Because 1 lone frig eats its tank.
Its 1 lone frig that cant die while it holds your helpless drake there and his 5-10 buddies come in and gank you from 2-3 systems over.
Have you never played the game?
Without Drones a ABing frig can hold a Drake indefinately, so yes in theory a Taranis can kill a Drake since it wont take DMG and the Drakes passive is 160 DPS, the Ranis does 200ish with Resists into account the drakes 160 will get slowly widdled.
But the biggest prob is Gangs coming...Hell Frig wolfpacks will murder a drake now, imagine with no Drones...Its just lol
L2 play
-------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.26 18:08:00 -
[567]
One lone ab frig with repper can tank 5 light drones.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.26 18:17:00 -
[568]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Try double the EHP, genious @ 70km.
Yeah. Double the EHP, then exclude weak armor EHP and weak hull EHP from that, then imagine your cap sucked so you can't use invul/hardener so it will weaken your buffer tank.
Also range is actually up to 20% less, depending on how far from starting position when missile fired enemy ship moved. Since 'cane can move at >1000 m/s speed - missile need to travel like 10km to chase that druring the flight time at long range. Simple: 70-10=60.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.26 18:20:00 -
[569]
Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 26/10/2010 18:32:54 Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 26/10/2010 18:32:28 Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 26/10/2010 18:30:39
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Yeah. Double the EHP, then exclude weak armor EHP and weak hull EHP from that, then imagine your cap sucked so you can't use invul/hardener so it will weaken your buffer tank.
Might as well disregard any other sniper BC's EHP then, as they all are weak. Also note that the drake is one of the most EWAR resistant ships in the game. Sensor damps/jamming -> FOF missiles (yes, less DPS, but its more than a jammed turret boat). Neuts? Sure, it turns off your hardeners, but up to 20k shields and the best passive shield tank out of any of the BC's. Target painting? Well that doesn't matter so much on BC's, especially drakes. Not saying its OP in this regard, but if you're gonna whine about cap warfare/EWAR, you should take off your blinders.
Quote: Also range is actually up to 20% less, depending on how far from starting position when missile fired enemy ship moved. Since 'cane can move at >1000 m/s speed - missile need to travel like 10km to chase that druring the flight time at long range. Simple: 70-10=60.
Range could be more too if the ships are moving towards you.
Originally by: Kail Storm
Its 1 lone frig that cant die while it holds your helpless drake there and his 5-10 buddies come in and gank you from 2-3 systems over.
lol. Yes, keep the drake's drone bay. But this is pretty lol. If a lone frig can muster up 5-10 buddies, where's your buddies? OMG SOMETHING CAN POINT ME AND I'M HELPLESS WAAAAAA rofl
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.10.26 18:39:00 -
[570]
Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 26/10/2010 18:44:36 The EFT DPS numbers are stupid anyway. Missile ships do not have instant DPS. So the calculation of Volley DMG/ROF does not work the same with them. (you can check this if you would like.)
According to EFT that fit does 462 DPS, with a launcher ROF of 6.3(aprx)s A volley of 2919
462*6.3 = 2910
This would work if Missile chuckers had instant damage, which they do not. @75K it will take these T2 Missiles:
75000/5625 = 13.3 seconds. 2910/13.3 = 218DPS.
*edit* the drake in question doesn't have a point so if lone firgs friends are slower than your lone frig flys off.
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.26 19:02:00 -
[571]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 26/10/2010 18:32:54 Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 26/10/2010 18:32:28 Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 26/10/2010 18:30:39
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
Yeah. Double the EHP, then exclude weak armor EHP and weak hull EHP from that, then imagine your cap sucked so you can't use invul/hardener so it will weaken your buffer tank.
Might as well disregard any other sniper BC's EHP then, as they all are weak. Also note that the drake is one of the most EWAR resistant ships in the game. Sensor damps/jamming -> FOF missiles (yes, less DPS, but its more than a jammed turret boat). Neuts? Sure, it turns off your hardeners, but up to 20k shields and the best passive shield tank out of any of the BC's. Target painting? Well that doesn't matter so much on BC's, especially drakes. Not saying its OP in this regard, but if you're gonna whine about cap warfare/EWAR, you should take off your blinders.
Quote: Also range is actually up to 20% less, depending on how far from starting position when missile fired enemy ship moved. Since 'cane can move at >1000 m/s speed - missile need to travel like 10km to chase that druring the flight time at long range. Simple: 70-10=60.
Range could be more too if the ships are moving towards you.
Originally by: Kail Storm
Its 1 lone frig that cant die while it holds your helpless drake there and his 5-10 buddies come in and gank you from 2-3 systems over.
lol. Yes, keep the drake's drone bay. But this is pretty lol. If a lone frig can muster up 5-10 buddies, where's your buddies? OMG SOMETHING CAN POINT ME AND I'M HELPLESS WAAAAAA rofl
So you have never flown solo and ran into a scout/Inty from a gang a jump behind? You never leave home without your 10 man body guard?
You never had to travel to catch up to a Roam from your buddies?
Ok you confirmed, you have never played "real PVP" If you dont think Drones are a must in a ship that cant kil tacklers on its own u are insane...Wow you a Terrabad and have 0 cred in my book. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.26 19:05:00 -
[572]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 26/10/2010 18:44:36 The EFT DPS numbers are stupid anyway. Missile ships do not have instant DPS. So the calculation of Volley DMG/ROF does not work the same with them. (you can check this if you would like.)
According to EFT that fit does 462 DPS, with a launcher ROF of 6.3(aprx)s A volley of 2919
462*6.3 = 2910
This would work if Missile chuckers had instant damage, which they do not. @75K it will take these T2 Missiles:
75000/5625 = 13.3 seconds. 2910/13.3 = 218DPS.
*edit* the drake in question doesn't have a point so if lone firgs friends are slower than your lone frig flys off.
i am sorry to burst your bubble. while the first volley would have something like 15s delay. the 2nd volley would have exactly the delay of your ROF. and your ROF is not 13.3s.
so yes the turret boats have an initial advantage of almost 2 volleys until the first missile volley hits, but thats about it.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.10.26 19:08:00 -
[573]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 26/10/2010 18:44:36 The EFT DPS numbers are stupid anyway. Missile ships do not have instant DPS. So the calculation of Volley DMG/ROF does not work the same with them. (you can check this if you would like.)
According to EFT that fit does 462 DPS, with a launcher ROF of 6.3(aprx)s A volley of 2919
462*6.3 = 2910
This would work if Missile chuckers had instant damage, which they do not. @75K it will take these T2 Missiles:
75000/5625 = 13.3 seconds. 2910/13.3 = 218DPS.
*edit* the drake in question doesn't have a point so if lone firgs friends are slower than your lone frig flys off.
i am sorry to burst your bubble. while the first volley would have something like 15s delay. the 2nd volley would have exactly the delay of your ROF. and your ROF is not 13.3s.
so yes the turret boats have an initial advantage of almost 2 volleys until the first missile volley hits, but thats about it.
Hmmm yes you are right I R feel stoopid
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.26 19:10:00 -
[574]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 26/10/2010 18:44:36 The EFT DPS numbers are stupid anyway. Missile ships do not have instant DPS. So the calculation of Volley DMG/ROF does not work the same with them. (you can check this if you would like.)
According to EFT that fit does 462 DPS, with a launcher ROF of 6.3(aprx)s A volley of 2919
462*6.3 = 2910
This would work if Missile chuckers had instant damage, which they do not. @75K it will take these T2 Missiles:
75000/5625 = 13.3 seconds. 2910/13.3 = 218DPS.
*edit* the drake in question doesn't have a point so if lone firgs friends are slower than your lone frig flys off.
What happens 6.3 seconds after that first hit? And then 6.3 seconds after the next one? OMG! The DPS goes UP!
2910*2 / (13.3 + 6.3) = 296.9 2910*3 / (13.3 + 6.3*2) = 337.1 2910*4 / (13.3 + 6.3*3) = 361.5 2910*5 / (13.3 + 6.3*4) = 377.9 2910*6 / (13.3 + 6.3*5) = 389.7
Of course, the DPS between the second and 3rd shot, etc. is 462. EFT DPS is merely a tool to give you an idea of the potential DPS. There's plenty of variables that are beyond EFT's control. Obviously if you're shooting at something from that far away in a missile boat you probably will have some tackle on the target, otherwise its plain stupid.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.26 19:20:00 -
[575]
Originally by: Kail Storm
If you dont think Drones are a must in a ship that cant kil tacklers on its own u are insane
Did you suffer a recent blow to the head that renders you unable to read? Lets take a look at what I said last:
Quote: lol. Yes, keep the drake's drone bay. But this is pretty lol. If a lone frig can muster up 5-10 buddies, where's your buddies? OMG SOMETHING CAN POINT ME AND I'M HELPLESS WAAAAAA rofl
Now, read the underlined part, then go back to my quote of you. Read the underlined part again, and then read what you said. We've gotta slow this down to your current comprehension level.
Ok? You got what I said?
Good. Because what I clearly said was to keep the drone bay on the drake. Keep does NOT mean get rid of. You made a hypothetical scenario where you were tackled and a hostile gang was nearby. Guess what? I can easily make up a hypothetical scenario where you have a gang nearby. Lets look at the possibilities:
1) Lowsec a) Frig tackles drake on gate -> frig dies from sentries b) Frig tackles drake in belt/mission area -> WTF where you doing in a belt or in a mission area with hostiles around? -> can get out with drones or help
2) 0.0 a) Frig tackles drake on gate -> drake burns to the gate and jumps thru. Frig has to wait 1 minute before persuing. b) Frig tackles drake in belt/anomaly area -> WTF where you doing in a belt or in an anomaly with hostiles around? -> can get out with drones or help
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SPACESHIPS LAWYER
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Posted - 2010.10.26 19:38:00 -
[576]
Remove drone bay from drake, caldari should not have drones. change 5 slots from missle to turrets, remove shield resist and missle bonuses and give a hybrid rate of fire bonus and a capacitor bonus.
drake fixed.
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MEDWAY
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Posted - 2010.10.26 19:44:00 -
[577]
simple answer no they dont need to be nerfed
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SPACESHIPS LAWYER
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Posted - 2010.10.26 19:46:00 -
[578]
Originally by: MEDWAY simple answer no they dont need to be nerfed
YES THEY DO
coincidentally caldari is the pve race they should probably just alter the caldari line so that they cannot enter any sec lower than 0.5 and problem solved.
caldari cannot be used for pvp.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Random Selection. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2010.10.26 20:13:00 -
[579]
I take a little vacations and what. Drake has apparently turned into a pvp machine?
Wait wait... let's see... after I started to play they were bad, they're still mediocre at best and... only thing they've got while I've played is nerfbat.
Apparently there's some kind of FOTM thing going on which is based on either passive shield or armor buffer with uhhuh always been overpowered logistics, which people have found after n years of their existance. Doesn't seem worth of reading more than one post in this thread to me. If something is wrong it's not drake :D
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Miyuki Honda
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Posted - 2010.10.26 20:25:00 -
[580]
Edited by: Miyuki Honda on 26/10/2010 20:32:21
Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn I take a little vacations and what. Drake has apparently turned into a pvp machine?
Wait wait... let's see... after I started to play they were bad, they're still mediocre at best and... only thing they've got while I've played is nerfbat.
Apparently there's some kind of FOTM thing going on which is based on either passive shield or armor buffer with uhhuh always been overpowered logistics, which people have found after n years of their existance. Doesn't seem worth of reading more than one post in this thread to me. If something is wrong it's not drake :D
Signed !
After nerfing the Drake, you can also do same with , Harbinger, Hurricane and Myrmidon... after that, you should nerf Angel Ships... Amarr-Sniper-BS... A-Hacs... and so on...just nerf everything you see more than 2 times... ;)
Originally by: SPACESHIPS LAWYER
Remove drone bay from drake, caldari should not have drones. ...
YOU shouldnt have drones too... and then be engaged by an Tacle Friget... the drake is slow enough with an signature of an planet... i have seen Primae¦s orbiting drakes for PI-Stuff...
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.26 20:51:00 -
[581]
Originally by: SPACESHIPS LAWYER Remove drone bay from drake, caldari should not have drones.
You can have my drones when I can have your missiles and shields.
Quote: change 5 slots from missle to turrets, remove shield resist and missle bonuses and give a hybrid rate of fire bonus and a capacitor bonus.
Turn it into a sucky version of a Gallente BC minus the drones? No thanks.
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Veliria
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Posted - 2010.10.26 21:17:00 -
[582]
Edited by: Veliria on 26/10/2010 21:18:26 Drake's fine. Solo HAM fit can easily be kited (Caldari BC is soooo slow) and the HML fit is gonna have trouble dealing both enough DPS whilst keeping the target pinned when compared to a pure out gank shield Harby.
I do agree the Myrm needs a buff, just give it 100 drone bandwidth...I mean...the Vexor has more bandwidth than the Myrm currently...wtf?
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oldmanst4r
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.26 21:18:00 -
[583]
Drakes are fine. The reason they are popular is because some brilliant person realized that everyone and their mother can fly drakes and that you can get a significantly higher turnout for fleets in a ship that still has a solid gank-tank ratio with low skills.
Drakes are: Commonly skilled for Dirt Cheap Effective with Low-skills Counter A-HAC gangs
Drakes are not: Imbalanced in any significant way that anyone should care about until the other 99000 REALLY imbalanced things about EVE are fixed.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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Selling Slave
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Posted - 2010.10.26 21:43:00 -
[584]
Oh boy ... There really isn't much point to this post. So, drakes have an advantage with range, but up against all the ships the poster put down, at short range, the drake would get wtfpwned, would it not? Then again, I could be wrong, lord knows that wouldn't be the first time.
You must not of thought this out clearly. Each an every ship in the game has its pros an cons. Are we to nerf the falcon because other race ships don't have jamming ability? What about the Arazu, they can sensor dampen you unlike any other races ship in the game. Those must be unfair advantages, because, lets face it, only the falcon an arazu can do what they do well. I guess its unfair to not be able to target someone back, an do dmg to them, while they lay down the hammer on you.(Might be poor examples, but I am tired, long day at work.)
The problem isn't in the ship, its in your thinking. This thread is just as bad as the cloak threads, or the T2 BPO threads. People should think more, an cry less. What we need is people to be more openminded.
As for CCP even getting involved in the thread, why? Don't you guys have more important things to do? How about you guys fix the issues in the game that have never been dealt with, an just over looked, or ignored, hoping that people will simply forget them perhaps? Doesn't CCP feel any sort of responsibilty to its player base? I pay for 5 accounts a month, plus buy gtcs to stimulate my game play instead of carebearing all of my game play, if someone asked me if I felt I received my moneys worth, I don't think I could say yes. Wonder how many other people spend as much money on EvE as I do.
I can't wait to be walking in the STATIONS! (insert sarcasm for the last sentence) Yiiiiiipppppppppppppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Lastly, NO, I am not going to quit the game, an NO, you can't have my stuff.
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Kayla Kestrel
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Posted - 2010.10.26 22:24:00 -
[585]
Originally by: Sakura Shiro half right....hard to kill and not as immediate a threat as the gun ships who in their sweet spot ranges push out decent dps at a fast rate.
Why say I'm half right and then prove me fully right? I said that your chances of being primary in a non-drake (i.e. a gunship battlecruiser) increase considerably because you're twice as easy to kill as a drake. That's the same thing as drakes dying last because they're lower threat and tanky
Originally by: Sakura Shiro Look at hictors, by your logic they would be killed last cause they are very tanky.
Errr ... no, my logic is the easiest ship in a class to kill will be killed first. Which classes are killed in which order depends on the FC. In your example, the hictors with fewest hitpoints are likely to be the first to go
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2010.10.26 23:36:00 -
[586]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Some really good opinions here. Remember this is atypical of our usual communication which comes following on from some action or pending change. Here we are experimenting in communication and catalyzing an open debate on a question posed regarding drake popularity and whether it is due to it being imbalanced and gathering opinion on that.
As stated in earlier responses which I see some of you skipped(!), we would never nerf the drake because it used missiles and missiles cause additional load, that would be nonsensical indeed as many note.
I don't have anything to add to this discussion but I would like to say one thing.While "experimenting in communication and catalyzing an open debate" you should keep a few things in mind.
For many people eve is the greatest game out to date.I at the moment have no other game on my computer.No matter what games I install and uninstall,eve always remains.Some people play this game all day every day,I've had my times too.So for many people the changes that happen in eve,has the same effect as if you were messing with their wife.
Keeping this in mind,people are very emotional about what happens to eve.It brings out the best and the worst in people at times.So you will have people who rage,take every chance to provoke ccp because some changes that have been made in the past,or just people who are plain out immature and just want to troll.
In any case this "experimenting in communication and catalyzing an open debate" is exactly what this game needs and what most players want.Please don't let some ruin it for all.In this case I would take action against those who post dumb remarks,and delete it flat out.There are a lot of very smart players in this game and they want to help make this game the best it can be as seen in this thread.
I think its great that you guys are giving players a chance at a conversation about a topic that you (ccp) are still debating.This is why I started playing this game.I always said "I'd never pay monthly for a game".Yet here I am addicted to eve online.And the reason I started playing is because a friend told me that ccp is a good bunch,that they have a vision..and are not only in it for the cash.I thought "these are some guys I dont mind supporting".
So tl;dr version.Nice to see you guys living up to your real reputation.
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lupusmoon
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Posted - 2010.10.27 02:33:00 -
[587]
so why are ppl comparing turret/armor ships to shield/missile ships?
turrets = close range missile = long range
shield = mid slots armor = low slots
if we want to compare, we need to compare by like.
since the other BC's do speed/turret/armor better then shield/missile and the drake does shield/missile(cant even do turret/armor) there is no accurate way to compare.
caldari has historicly been ignored for pvp for being a shield using race and relying on missile/hybrid dmg. armor is prefered in most fleet set-ups primarily for RR is better for armor then shields/ mid slots open for ewar.
ppl complaining that they must go to great lengths to match the drake for range/tank fail to compare how the drake must go to great lengths to match in speed/cs dps/sig.
the drake is set-up to attack well against mid/low speed tagets with mid/high sig rad. while getting beat by larger ships that love its low speed high sig rad.
its only imbalanced by cost - if anything make the drake a T2 and make either the Cerb(guess here not to sure) a T1 or create a weaker vs of the drake for T1. that would make the drake cost more isk/skill then it does reducing access.
as to lag due to missile's - changing them to video/calc only would alter how missiles work in-game as a tagets position/speed is in constant flux compared to the missile thus enabling a target to affect dmg done by alter speed/range from missile.
effective range of a missile is not its straight-line max. if a sniping BC orbits a speed at lets say 70km on a drake that max hits at 70km max straight-line then by priciple the missile will never hit as the missile will burn flight time trying to correct for the change position of the target. As said before dps irrelivant if it dont hit.
if u fail to plan, then u plan to fail.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.27 03:49:00 -
[588]
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD lol. Yes, keep the drake's drone bay. But this is pretty lol. If a lone frig can muster up 5-10 buddies, where's your buddies? OMG SOMETHING CAN POINT ME AND I'M HELPLESS WAAAAAA rofl
Ever tried flying through enemy 0.0 hubs to reach damn Jita from your home location?
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.27 03:51:00 -
[589]
Edited by: Okuu Reiuji on 27/10/2010 03:54:01
Originally by: rekcuf bmuD 2) 0.0 a) Frig tackles drake on gate -> drake burns to the gate and jumps thru. Frig has to wait 1 minute before persuing. b) Frig tackles drake in belt/anomaly area -> WTF where you doing in a belt or in an anomaly with hostiles around? -> can get out with drones or help
You were catched in the bubble far away from gate. Clone!
Originally by: SPACESHIPS LAWYER
Remove drone bay from drake, caldari should not have drones. change 5 slots from missle to turrets, remove shield resist and missle bonuses and give a hybrid rate of fire bonus and a capacitor bonus.
drake fixed.
Humm, Beepsky gonna beat you for saying that.
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rekcuf bmuD
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Posted - 2010.10.27 05:09:00 -
[590]
Edited by: rekcuf bmuD on 27/10/2010 05:16:07
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji Ever tried flying through enemy 0.0 hubs to reach damn Jita from your home location?
Ever heard of jump bridges? If you fly thru enemy territory in a drake you must have a death wish. Use a cloaky or T3. Never said drake pilots were too smart. Afterall, I had to tell one in this thread how to use a MWD properly (PULSE IT). Another drake pilot I knew would cruise thru lowsec in his pve drake, and as soon as someone pointed him he'd give up and say he's dead.
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.27 06:47:00 -
[591]
If you remove missile flight path you remove change to destroy those by defender missiles or smart bombs.
Defender missiles are not really good, because those need missile launcher slot to fit and those work only against missiles that are coming towards you, so those does not help much in fleet battles.
Maybe ccp should make highslot defender missile launcher that does not need turret or missile launcher slot, and change defender missile behavior so that those can destroy missiles that are attacking fleet members or some other usefull way to select right missiles to destroy, maybe selecting target and using those to selected targets missiles.
I am sure that these changes would not reduce any lag, maybe those just create it more, but those could make almost equal counter to missiles like tracking disruptors are.
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Stygian Knight
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.10.27 08:33:00 -
[592]
NEERRFFF
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HeWhoLikesGuns
Minmatar SmokingGuns Corp
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Posted - 2010.10.27 10:22:00 -
[593]
Edited by: HeWhoLikesGuns on 27/10/2010 10:26:25 DidnÆt read the whole post, so sorry, if I repeat someone elseÆs idea. ItÆs similar to the guy two posts up. Before nerving a ship or whole weapon system, please consider this:
IÆd like to see defenders being introduced as an equivalent to electronic counter measures for turrets like tracking disrupters. They should be midslot systems, which really provide defense against missiles. Chances to neutralize an enemy missile increase with range and they should be scriptable for better accuracy (if enemy is close) or faster rate of fire (if enemy is far away).
It would keep the drake a competitive ship in solo or small engagements and would be a viable counter to blobs of them.
Cheers!
edit: I know this doesnt solve the lag problem in the short run, but will lessen this problem over time.
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Thorazin
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Posted - 2010.10.27 12:41:00 -
[594]
Nerf the drake? u fking joking right?
Its a tank ship and thats the only good thing about it
Its dps suck, drone bay sucks also
so what u plan to nerf?
only advatange of drake is its tank and if you nerf that u better remove the ship cause it will suck bigtime.
Btw nerfed drake and no joystick support for eve not even in future i think me and my RL friends are about to quit the game for something like X3 or JGE.
DRAKE IS FINE AS IT IS NOW DONT NERF INSTEAD BOOST ITS DRONE BAY I WOULD SAY AND ADD A BLOODY JOYSTICK SUPPORT THE GAME GETS RLY BORING WITHOUT IT.....
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.27 12:47:00 -
[595]
Originally by: Thorazin Nerf the drake? u fking joking right?
Its a tank ship and thats the only good thing about it
Its dps suck, drone bay sucks also
so what u plan to nerf?
only advatange of drake is its tank and if you nerf that u better remove the ship cause it will suck bigtime.
Btw nerfed drake and no joystick support for eve not even in future i think me and my RL friends are about to quit the game for something like X3 or JGE.
DRAKE IS FINE AS IT IS NOW DONT NERF INSTEAD BOOST ITS DRONE BAY I WOULD SAY AND ADD A BLOODY JOYSTICK SUPPORT THE GAME GETS RLY BORING WITHOUT IT.....
HAM Drake with overheated launchers gets 779 DPS and still has 80k EHP Just saying...
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2010.10.27 13:08:00 -
[596]
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 27/10/2010 13:10:04
Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Thorazin Nerf the drake? u fking joking right?
Its a tank ship and thats the only good thing about it
Its dps suck, drone bay sucks also
so what u plan to nerf?
only advatange of drake is its tank and if you nerf that u better remove the ship cause it will suck bigtime.
Btw nerfed drake and no joystick support for eve not even in future i think me and my RL friends are about to quit the game for something like X3 or JGE.
DRAKE IS FINE AS IT IS NOW DONT NERF INSTEAD BOOST ITS DRONE BAY I WOULD SAY AND ADD A BLOODY JOYSTICK SUPPORT THE GAME GETS RLY BORING WITHOUT IT.....
HAM Drake with overheated launchers gets 779 DPS and still has 80k EHP Just saying...
Only if you use the 5% missile damage or 5% HAM Damage implant and rage hams, and to keep that 80k ehp buffer you need the 3% powergrid implant as well. Or you will have to drop either a BCU or the dc 2 for a power diagnostic system 2 and therefore have to choose between tank or gank.
Edit. also that 779dps you quoted is out to around 15km
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Nova Soldier
Caldari ROMANIA Renegades ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.27 13:13:00 -
[597]
Consider this if you nerf the drake you will overpower the AbHacs, since the drake is the only vialbe counter to them.
The pvp will no longer be available for low sp playes but only for those high skilled pilots.
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Thorazin
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Posted - 2010.10.27 13:14:00 -
[598]
Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Thorazin Nerf the drake? u fking joking right?
Its a tank ship and thats the only good thing about it
Its dps suck, drone bay sucks also
so what u plan to nerf?
only advatange of drake is its tank and if you nerf that u better remove the ship cause it will suck bigtime.
Btw nerfed drake and no joystick support for eve not even in future i think me and my RL friends are about to quit the game for something like X3 or JGE.
DRAKE IS FINE AS IT IS NOW DONT NERF INSTEAD BOOST ITS DRONE BAY I WOULD SAY AND ADD A BLOODY JOYSTICK SUPPORT THE GAME GETS RLY BORING WITHOUT IT.....
HAM Drake with overheated launchers gets 779 DPS and still has 80k EHP Just saying...
i dont use HAM my drake with HM and my missile skills most of them lvl 4 deals 212 dps also got 3% ROF missile implant and 3% dmg HM implant this means that without those implants dps would be below 200 so the dps its the same as an t2 frigate its a joke drakes dps sux.
Nerf HAM in general and not the drake i kinda hate HAM range is crap even if close range gank pvp i dont like them because enemy ship can outrange you ex AC cane can hit you from 20 km but HAM drake cant....
So if u want my serious and responsible opinion nerf HAM dmg and give them some range (preffered missile travel speed than maximoun flight time)
nerf drake only and make the biggest mistake ever in eve ship balancing.
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.27 13:17:00 -
[599]
Originally by: Thorazin i dont use HAM my drake with HM and my missile skills most of them lvl 4 deals 212 dps also got 3% ROF missile implant and 3% dmg HM implant this means that without those implants dps would be below 200 so the dps its the same as an t2 frigate its a joke drakes dps sux.
Nerf HAM in general and not the drake i kinda hate HAM range is crap even if close range gank pvp i dont like them because enemy ship can outrange you ex AC cane can hit you from 20 km but HAM drake cant....
So if u want my serious and responsible opinion nerf HAM dmg and give them some range (preffered missile travel speed than maximoun flight time)
nerf drake only and make the biggest mistake ever in eve ship balancing.
1. Your speech is completely unintelligible. 2. Your (bad) fitting choices and low SP are hardly a priority for CCP in their decision with what to do with the Drake. 3. Stop posting.
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Admiral Mendel
Caldari Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.27 13:56:00 -
[600]
Originally by: SPACESHIPS LAWYER
Originally by: MEDWAY simple answer no they dont need to be nerfed
YES THEY DO
coincidentally caldari is the pve race they should probably just alter the caldari line so that they cannot enter any sec lower than 0.5 and problem solved.
caldari cannot be used for pvp.
gag and bag this guy, please...before we get some of his "stupid" on us....
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.27 14:17:00 -
[601]
Originally by: Aerilis 1. Your speech is completely unintelligible. 2. Your (bad) fitting choices and low SP are hardly a priority for CCP in their decision with what to do with the Drake. 3. Stop posting.
Too fat.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2010.10.27 14:31:00 -
[602]
Drake is perfectly fine the way it is, you cant have both gank and tank without using implants or having high fitting skills and although it is arguably considered the best bc its not by a large enough margin to call it op
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.10.27 15:24:00 -
[603]
600th Post Mega Snipe!
I fell off the Sniper wagon...
So who is winning the Nerf, don't Nerf battle?
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
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Travis Musgrat
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Posted - 2010.10.27 15:55:00 -
[604]
Drakes are only overpowered because other ship classes to counter them have been severely nerfed. The main thing that kills drakes is light dictor bubbles. Drakes eat light dictors for breakfast. Drakes also get infinite cap in lag due to mwd cycles taking very long. Also the lack of remote reps in lag means that drakes can alpha anything, with sufficient numbers.
So CCP, it's really just the fact that drakes are cheap, their alpha works very well in lag without having to track anything, their tank is nice, bombers are ineffective because in lag bombs will travel 100s of kms before exploding, and even if they work, they work way better against other fleet shiptypes, (fleet bs, rr bs) they can permamwd in lag which means ****tor bubbles don't hold them down, as if they ever held any fleets down nowadays. The other reason passive tanks get used far more often than active tanks is because there's too many people in this game, and people can call too many friends if you show up in a double rep megathron.
You have 2 choices. If lag will persist, then nerf the cap of the drake, and nerf its alpha. Keep the drone bay, the drones are not what make it overpowered. But if lag is going to go away, even in chunks, you need to balance everything else. Don't look at 1 ship that bad balancing and lag make attractive, go back and boost the things you've so sorely nerfed. The fast hacs used to be able to eat drakes for breakfast, now a Vaga can't even get off a gate when it needs to without being tackled. ****tors used to be able to fly circles around other ships except interceptors, and it's not like they were stupid overpowered, I killed them all the time, and look at them now, they're flying death coffins. You literally cannot bring a light dictor to a fleet fight with anything other than implants, a cloak, and a maxed claymore/loki, and expect to do anything other than die the first time you try to bubble a fleet.
So I know I'm going off topic, but I also hope CCP is smart enough to realize that you cannot balance just 1 ship without talking about the balance of its counters. I've flown with drake gangs, the huge 200 man ones that you're all talking about, and really, there are 2 choices. You can nerf it if you're not going to pay attention to other balance issues. Or you can balance certain other ships (dictors, active tankers, bombers), keep fixing lag 1 step at a time, and leave the drake alone.
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2010.10.27 18:13:00 -
[605]
Thread needs more blue bars after 20 pages of rage, trolling, disbelief, and general chaos. Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.27 21:18:00 -
[606]
Originally by: Travis Musgrat leave the drake alone.
this
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MeBreakdown
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Posted - 2010.10.27 23:20:00 -
[607]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: darius mclever Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 20:51:06 so instead of workaround the missile issue with nerfing drakes so they get less popular ... how about fixing missiles instead?
(and yes i use missile boats a lot, in different flavors)
All cards are on the table, we are merely analyzing for now with a high degree of concern its rapid rise in popularity and being open about it. The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others. The rest is scenario specific and not a fault of the drake.
Consider the two issues separate if you will, the balance vs the rest of the class and the load it creates in fleet fight scenarios. We do indeed hope to address all missiles at some point. This is merely a heads up on an early stage investigation where nothing is set in stone.
i suggest just adding more to the other battlecruisers, that will balance it out and more people will fly the other races in fleet.
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Nocturnal miner
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Posted - 2010.10.27 23:46:00 -
[608]
easy fix (no idea if it has been suggested yet) to be in line with the raven and caracal, much like other tier 2 bc's
10% missile velocity bonus instead of shield resist
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Htrag
The Carebear Stare Hydroponic Zone
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Posted - 2010.10.28 00:57:00 -
[609]
Drake is fine. The whining is pathetic.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.10.28 01:27:00 -
[610]
Originally by: Nocturnal miner easy fix (no idea if it has been suggested yet) to be in line with the raven and caracal, much like other tier 2 bc's
10% missile velocity bonus instead of shield resist
Great, a range bonus. Now buff missile velocity significantly so they can actually take advantage of this, then buff missile precision so stuff like HAMs can hit for reasonable damage outside tackle range.
Oops, your "easy fix" isn't looking so easy any more is it?
Drake is fine, nerf the ability to back a fleet with 50 logistics instead. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.28 02:10:00 -
[611]
If the Drake was anything like the detractors are suggesting you would see them being used regularly in low-sec and small gangs. You don't because there are far better choices.
The Drake is not on the chopping block because it is overpowered. The problem (as CCP said) is missile spam lagging the servers. It is this spam that CCP wants to eliminate. Sadly, the best way to do so is to break the Drake so that few will use it.
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Treslor
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Posted - 2010.10.28 03:38:00 -
[612]
Originally by: OT Smithers If the Drake was anything like the detractors are suggesting you would see them being used regularly in low-sec and small gangs. You don't because there are far better choices.
What? Yes you do. In fact, I don't think I've been in any engagement of 3 bc-sized ships or more in the past two months where at least one of them wasn't a drake.
Quote: The Drake is not on the chopping block because it is overpowered. The problem (as CCP said) is missile spam lagging the servers. It is this spam that CCP wants to eliminate. Sadly, the best way to do so is to break the Drake so that few will use it.
Might want to read the dev post in this thread again. They're looking at two separate issues. One is the missile spam lag, yes. The other concern is why the drake has become so popular, so quickly. When everybody's using it and the alternative ships get left on the sidelines for most large engagements, it usually points to an imbalance
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.28 03:43:00 -
[613]
Originally by: Nocturnalto be in line with the raven and caracal[/quote
To be ****, you mean?
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.28 03:49:00 -
[614]
Originally by: Treslor
Originally by: OT Smithers The other concern is why the drake has become so popular, so quickly.
Because of AHAC popularity. Drake is cheap counter for them. Nerf AHACs - you won't see so much drakes.
Quote: alternative ships get left on the sidelines
You posted it like Caldari have other useful PVP T1 ship. Also not the Caldari only. In entire EVE Drake is the only decent missile boat.
Quote: it usually points to an imbalance
And it's imbalance of the other ships, not the drake.
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Treslor
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Posted - 2010.10.28 04:31:00 -
[615]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji Because of AHAC popularity. Drake is cheap counter for them. Nerf AHACs - you won't see so much drakes.
You don't honestly believe that, do you? People will go with what they know. If AHAC gangs get nerfed, that just makes drakes an even better counter and even less reason not to fly one
Quote: You posted it like Caldari have other useful PVP T1 ship. Also not the Caldari only. In entire EVE Drake is the only decent missile boat.
I wouldn't be opposed to boosts for other caldari non-ewar ships, particularly the turreted ones if it goes hand-in-hand with a general hybrid boost. But this thread is about the drake specifically.
Quote: And it's imbalance of the other ships, not the drake.
Possibly. But then again, should a bc have the same EHP as a battleship? Why can it be fit for long range so easily compared to everything else? And if the other bcs are underpowered at long range, what about other (non-bc) ships that must sacrifice tank and damage for range? Should they be boosted too?
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Loac
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Posted - 2010.10.28 04:41:00 -
[616]
Originally by: OT Smithers If the Drake was anything like the detractors are suggesting you would see them being used regularly in low-sec and small gangs. You don't because there are far better choices.
The Drake is not on the chopping block because it is overpowered. The problem (as CCP said) is missile spam lagging the servers. It is this spam that CCP wants to eliminate. Sadly, the best way to do so is to break the Drake so that few will use it.
This. Easy/not so easy fix. 1. Eliminate the missile graphics 2. Make missiles insta hit 3. At the end of doing 1 and 2 ensure the DPS of missiles remains the same as it is now. End result, no buff, no nerf.
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lupusmoon
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Posted - 2010.10.28 06:18:00 -
[617]
why do ppl want a shield/missile ship to act the same as a armor/turret ship? turret are best at mid/close range while missiles are best at mid/long range. the drake doesnt have to give up dps for range cause its missiles NOT turrets.
it doesnt lose tank for dps cause its a SHIELD tank - and shields go mid slot not low slot where most dmg mods go.
on the other had it gives up tackle/ewar for its tank where as armor does not.
ppl should jut use there heads more and counter them. no ALL BC's should not be able to fight for the same dps at the same ranges with the same tank. what would be the point?
missile ships suck at close range and shield tanks generally have no/poor tackle relying more on a support ship to tackle its target at close range. so get in close and tackle these drakes and watch them pop.
or i guess keep trying to make close range ships fight at extreme range against them and watch you go pop.
and no i dont think we need to make the drake use HAM's over HML's. cause forcing a shield tank with no tackle to fight at close range against other ships that will fly 'better' at close range and 'with' tackle will just render the drake useless yet again in pvp.
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Rellana
DAB Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.10.28 07:45:00 -
[618]
The problem isn't that drakes need to be nerfed ,it's that the other races don't have a ship equilavent to the drake,so the other races need to have there battlecruisers looked as and a ship equivalent to the drake need to be given to them.The drake is a Generic ship class that everyone can bring which the other races don't have,which needs to be changed,as fleets of Myrimdons/Harbingers/hurricanes don't work. Also Battleship need to be changed/upgunned as right now there's whole races of BS that are useless in combat,which shouldn't be the case for Battleship-class ships. Imean anyone here remember the days where Torps ravens did AOE or cruise-sniper ravens setups? Now the whole raven BS class has been nerfed effectively..
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William Cooly
Sol Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.10.28 12:10:00 -
[619]
I am sick and tired of these mutha****in' Drakes in this mutha****in' game!
Originally by: Templar Dane Tanking is not a role.
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Selling Slave
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Posted - 2010.10.28 12:47:00 -
[620]
Originally by: OT Smithers The Drake is not on the chopping block because it is overpowered. The problem (as CCP said) is missile spam lagging the servers. It is this spam that CCP wants to eliminate. Sadly, the best way to do so is to break the Drake so that few will use it.
Yes, lets ruin the drake, an make it useless, because CCP fails at fixing the lag issue. They blow smoke up our arses all the while "trying" to fix things, but coming up short. I have seen 5 year old kids lie better then CCP does. Matter of fact, CCP has been so full of it, so often, if I was a stock holder, I would call for a vote of no confidence in whomever is running CCP, for failure to hire people who have an understanding of programming. I don't give a good god damn if I have no programming ability, I would at least find someone who does, that way things would get taken care of.
The drake isn't broken, EvE just hasn't been fixed properly, an at the rate things are going, will it ever?
EvE could be so much more then it is, even diamonds need to be polished ...
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.28 14:56:00 -
[621]
Originally by: Treslor You don't honestly believe that, do you? People will go with what they know. If AHAC gangs get nerfed, that just makes drakes an even better counter and even less reason not to one
The Drake gangs was the counter for an AHAC gangs. AHAC are the reason drake become popular so rapidly, cuz they weren't boosted even a bit since Drake appeared in the game.
Quote: Possibly. But then again, should a bc have the same EHP as a battleship?
If you lurk in the terms "battleship" and "battlecruiser" (in navy) you'll see that both ship types have almost same kind of armor, pretty same size, but battleruisers lack in damage & guns. And even in game BCs aren't really smaller than BS, so if you don't see them just as lower level ships than BS, and they're not since they're just another, dead end (now) branch of basic ships (can be seen with no doubt if you look at skill tree) after cruisers. Let's say frigs are "Class 1", then destroyers are "Class 1.A", cruisers are "Class 2", BS are "Class 3" and BC are "Class 3.A". They're just a little weaker and smaller. Standard cruisers have much more difference with BCs than BCs have with BSes.
Quote: Why can it be fit for long range so easily compared to everything else?
Cuz it can't be fit for close range so easily compared to everything else. It's like balance between yin and yang, which are different from each other, but that difference balancing it. Like fire unable to cool you and water unable to fry you.
Quote: what about other (non-bc) ships that must sacrifice tank and damage for range?
Not really. Any shield-tanking ship have to sacrifice EWAR for tank, but no need to kill tank and damage for range. We just don't have enough decent shield-tanked ships ingame for everyone to see it clearly. That's not true only for drake.
Quote: Should they be boosted too?
Every ship which is useless today shood be boosted. I like to see complex warfare with most ships in fleet and not the 3-4 ship only game.
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.10.28 15:00:00 -
[622]
Originally by: Selling Slave
Yes, lets ruin the drake, an make it useless, because CCP fails...etc *RAGE* etc
FACTS: The people at CCP are PROFESSIONAL game developers with years of experience running a successful MMO. Their opinions are backed by data and education and experience, their actions by their own paychecks. This is a big deal to CCP because it is important to a lot of players.
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Selling Slave
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Posted - 2010.10.28 15:54:00 -
[623]
Originally by: OT Smithers The problem (as CCP said) is missile spam lagging the servers. It is this spam that CCP wants to eliminate. Sadly, the best way to do so is to break the Drake so that few will use it.
Originally by: OT Smithers FACTS: The people at CCP are PROFESSIONAL game developers with years of experience running a successful MMO. Their opinions are backed by data and education and experience, their actions by their own paychecks. This is a big deal to CCP because it is important to a lot of players.
So, break the drake because CCP can't fix missle spam lag? You know how dumb that sounds? As for rage, you turn what I say into something it isn't, you read into what I say an see something that isn't intended to be there. It's right in front of you, CCP has failed over an over again to fix the lag, all they do is come up with excuses why it isn't fixed. EvE is no where near as successful as it could be, it could be so much more. It isn't rage that drives someone to say what I say, its frustration. Frustration from not being able to play EvE an enjoy it to its fullness, instead, it lets you down. No, it may look an sound like rage, but it isn't. I just wanna play the game as it was intended to be. Instead of fixing it, they come up with an excuse, that doesn't sound professional at all.
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K'racker
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.10.28 16:37:00 -
[624]
is it possible to change player missiles the way fighter bombers are being fixed? it seems to be identical problem. i don't know if making 'fake' missiles changes the way defenders or smartbombs work against them, nothing is mentioned about that.
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=809
so that could be the lag problem sorted, even more so once game improvements allow grouping weapons in fleet battles again.
you can practically subsitute "drake" for "fighter bomber" in the entire blog. except for the part about them being boosted recently.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.28 17:02:00 -
[625]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/skyral/thefirewall.mp4 if you want to download it.
Dont worry about drakes. They're easily countered.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2010.10.28 17:51:00 -
[626]
Originally by: Malcanis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/skyral/thefirewall.mp4 if you want to download it.
Dont worry about drakes. They're easily countered.
We have no doubt that new strategies would emerge given time as posted earlier in the thread (though smartbombs also are quite load heavy albeit pretty - nice vid btw!). It still does not change the reality that we want to ensure enjoyable fleet fights for all which is our primary objective for fleet fights. Currently the drake and the many fleets utilizing it are burdening the server with much higher load simultaneously being the chief cause of the lag and then resilient to lags effects since over the sheer weight of fleet numbers we need to cope with.
The logical path is to drill down and find the root cause of this popularity, something we have done by posing the question openly with you all as well to which many of you have objectively or passionately replied and broached the topic nicely which has been very cool to see. If the reason is imbalance in the ship itself or with the missiles, then its typically something that is straight forward to change in a much shorter time frame than our longer term investigation and refactoring of the missile system for example which would take significantly more man-hours (lots and lots comparatively but it will be done someday).
The fighter bombers are receiving fake missiles but changing missiles you are I fire from a ship takes a lot more design and code work since we need to redo many of the game mechanics surrounding missiles if that is to happen and is not something we would label short term or even medium term to an extent given the size of the change.
As CCP Atlas commented on here, we are exploring all possibilities right now. One thing that has risen from our analysis of fleet fights for example of the many drake pilots, is that only half are grouping their launchers. This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:16:00 -
[627]
Edited by: darius mclever on 28/10/2010 18:20:37
Originally by: Malcanis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/skyral/thefirewall.mp4 if you want to download it.
Dont worry about drakes. They're easily countered.
nice work!:)
observations from my few fights with drakes in the last days: 1. perma running mwd Even if i wanted to cut it off so I wouldnt drift out of the range of the hostile ships so quickly it just doesnt react in time. happened often enough that it took like 1-3 minutes until it actually turned on or off. that said ... i went for leaving it runing all the time, even when orbiting a fleet anchor. so for now i am happy about that cap recharge bug.
2. weapon and targeting lag in the same range as the mwd, i missed a few primaries because i couldnt lock them before they died. especially ewar mods seems to get stuck more than the turrets, at least for me.
3. cant comment on the shield recharge, because i wasnt really shot at.
what was amazing ... in the last fight as soon as the hostiles warped off in one fight the server load dropped instantly and i almost capped out because i didnt notice the cap usage/recharge went back to normal level. the server recovered almost instantly.
discussed the whole lag/overload issue with a friend and we wonder if it would help if you slow down the tickrate if you get too many commands per second. so by default lets say we run with 100 ticks per second, if you notice that the server reaches the maximum, you slow down the "time" on that node. what would normally have a cycle time of 10s, would get 11s, if thats not enough 12s and so on.
that would reduce the number of events per seconds again and might bring it back to a level where the server can react more smoothly. the idea would be to keep the total events/s at a rate that the server can manage.
(edit: fix typo)
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Hori To
Masuat'aa Matari
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:29:00 -
[628]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Malcanis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/skyral/thefirewall.mp4 if you want to download it.
Dont worry about drakes. They're easily countered.
We have no doubt that new strategies would emerge given time as posted earlier in the thread (though smartbombs also are quite load heavy albeit pretty - nice vid btw!). It still does not change the reality that we want to ensure enjoyable fleet fights for all which is our primary objective for fleet fights. Currently the drake and the many fleets utilizing it are burdening the server with much higher load simultaneously being the chief cause of the lag and then resilient to lags effects since over the sheer weight of fleet numbers we need to cope with.
The logical path is to drill down and find the root cause of this popularity, something we have done by posing the question openly with you all as well to which many of you have objectively or passionately replied and broached the topic nicely which has been very cool to see. If the reason is imbalance in the ship itself or with the missiles, then its typically something that is straight forward to change in a much shorter time frame than our longer term investigation and refactoring of the missile system for example which would take significantly more man-hours (lots and lots comparatively but it will be done someday).
The fighter bombers are receiving fake missiles but changing missiles you are I fire from a ship takes a lot more design and code work since we need to redo many of the game mechanics surrounding missiles if that is to happen and is not something we would label short term or even medium term to an extent given the size of the change.
As CCP Atlas commented on here, we are exploring all possibilities right now. One thing that has risen from our analysis of fleet fights for example of the many drake pilots, is that only half are grouping their launchers. This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well.
been told to ungroup guns for fleet fights, because ungrouped guns perform better under laggy conditions.
I also hope that you are aware that the only noobship (Low SP req and easy to fly) ship in eve fleet fights atm are the drake. And that ahac > bs > drake > ahac is a good thing. |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:37:00 -
[629]
Originally by: Hori To
been told to ungroup guns for fleet fights, because ungrouped guns perform better under laggy conditions.
We are aware of this request from FCs to do this and why. It is also being worked as well with potential good changes going out to remedy this this.
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Kaliba Mort
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:57:00 -
[630]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well.
Easy answer. Each launcher on ship adds 20% penalty to launcher cycle time. Each launcher that is part of a group decreases base cycle time by 20%.
So 7 ungrouped launchers on a drake = base_cycle * 2.4
All stacked, no change.
This would at least get you 3 or less groups. This could be extended to all weapons.
People that don't group guns and missiles are otherwise referred to as killboard *****s - they want to get on more killmails. Drones also create tons of lag and can't group those.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.28 19:07:00 -
[631]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis If the reason is imbalance in the ship itself or with the missiles, then its typically something that is straight forward to change in a much shorter time frame than our longer term investigation and refactoring of the missile system for example which would take significantly more man-hours (lots and lots comparatively but it will be done someday).
I believe that by simplifying missile flight path calculations to keeping track of the missiles point of origin, its current flight time, maximum velocity, and current target position, the CPU load required for keeping track of them could be reduced while still retaining the main aspects of missile combat (delayed damage, ability to destroy missiles with smartbombs or defender missiles, etc).
Quote: This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well.
Unfortunately, missiles provide a strong incentive not to group them - avoiding overkill (which wastes ammo and dps). With guns, overkill only wastes a few shots from the current salvo, but with missiles, you waste some of the damage from the salvo that killed the target as well as any missiles currently in flight towards the now-dead target.
This leads to the problem that there is quite a bit of incentive (dps-wise and ammo-wise) to leave the launchers ungrouped or use small groups only, while there's only the incentive of convenience to group missile launcher (especially since defender missiles are basically never used in PvP).
Hm. Replace defender missiles with point defense turrets (that take neither turret nor launcher slots and thus can be used in utility high slots) that fire fast enough to shoot down lots of individual missiles, but only one if the missiles arrive as a group?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.28 19:11:00 -
[632]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer Unfortunately, missiles provide a strong incentive not to group them - avoiding overkill (which wastes ammo and dps). With guns, overkill only wastes a few shots from the current salvo, but with missiles, you waste some of the damage from the salvo that killed the target as well as any missiles currently in flight towards the now-dead target.
This leads to the problem that there is quite a bit of incentive (dps-wise and ammo-wise) to leave the launchers ungrouped or use small groups only, while there's only the incentive of convenience to group missile launcher (especially since defender missiles are basically never used in PvP).
that doesnt make a whole lot of sense. if you see the target is close to die, you would waste the same amount of ammo in a turret boat (brutix e.g.) as you do in your drake. if you fly missile boats long enough, you can get a pretty good idea when it is still worth so send in another volley or when it might be better to send the missiles at the secondary. i think in heavy fleet fights that might even be some good knowledge for turret boats, because of the cycling issues.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.28 19:14:00 -
[633]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Hori To
been told to ungroup guns for fleet fights, because ungrouped guns perform better under laggy conditions.
We are aware of this request from FCs to do this and why. It is also being worked as well with potential good changes going out to remedy this this.
I am 99.99% sure that this is why you are seeing ungrouped launchers. If you look at the guys the drakes are fighting, you'll see that many of them are ungrouping their turrets too. Ungrouping weapons "maliciously" to deliberately cause lag, yeah, I pretty much doubt it. Causing lag is only really of benefit during the initial jump in phase. Once both fleets are fully engaged, there's plenty of lag for everyone without deliberately causing more.
There's no mystery as to why the drake is popular: it's an effective counter to AHAC fleets. In fact at the moment we have a near perfect rock-paper-scissors situation with BS beats Drakes beats AHACs beats BS.
Take away the drakes, and all that will be left are AHAC fleets.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
clbo
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Posted - 2010.10.28 19:21:00 -
[634]
Edited by: clbo on 28/10/2010 19:23:30
Originally by: Kirkas Palkki Edited by: Kirkas Palkki on 26/10/2010 06:27:16
Originally by: Kaurapa The Drake is obviously being utilised at a much higher level than the other tier 2 BCs in 0.0 combat. So much so it has overtaken ALL BS hulls in day to day usage in many alliances. Many people seem to be looking at that situation and saying, "the Drake is over powered in the current fleet environment - nerf it."
The big question CCP need to ask is: Why has there been a sudden shift toward Drake usage in 0.0 fleet combat? After all CCP haven't given the Drake a direct boost in any way over the last 6 months.
The problem is not that the Drake. In my opinion the problems are: 1. Battleship hulls are easy to hit at close range when you are in a BC and below, and a Battleship's turrets (whether they be hybrid, projectile, laser or missile) can not hit a small sig radius ship (BC and below) for effective comparable damage. 2. Logistics ships (in a crusier sized hull) provide a high level of replenishment to any ship with a high buffer tank. 3. Bonuses are flat % based. Therefore a 30% reduction in a battle/cruiser sig radius will eliminate any damage a BS can do to said battle/crusier hull. While a 30% reduction in a Battleship sig radius will result in little effect when a Battleship fleet is fighting a Battle/cruiser fleet.
Taking these things into account a fleet commander can: 1. Eliminate all BS from his fleet 2. Pick BC/Crusiers with highest buffer and still able to do mediocre/moderate DPS. The Zealot/Drake 3. Stack the fleet with high aligned logistics numbers. 10 Scimis/Gaurdian for every 100 Drakes/Zealots 4. Get bonuses that increase buffer/decrease sig
One of those options involves high Skill Points and high ISK if you have a bad loss. The other can utilise 5mil sp characters and can cost as little as a 45mil per player in a black screened fight.
If CCP nerf the Drake they are attempting to fix a symptom and showing they fail to understand the basic concept of cause and effect.
You other people should re read this post - It pretty much sums up the situation. It really doesnt matter whats better a drake or a harbinger, what matters is the the overall fleet composition. If drakes were overpowered they would be as common in small gangs as dramiels.
Dramiels dont use misiles so they cant be overpowered, sorry.
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UKDane
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Posted - 2010.10.28 19:24:00 -
[635]
So, let me get this straight... CCP are most likely going to nerf the only really good (and affordable) Caldari ship because in large fleet battles a lot of people choose them for the range and dps of missiles... oh, and missiles cause server spikes? That's pretty thin.
Caldari are the weakest pvp race as it is, certainly in solo pvp, and you are going to compound that by ruining the only truely worthwhile solo pvp caldari ship. Thanks a bunch.
A warning when one chooses race initially might have been nice... "Don't choose this race if you want to solo pvp!".
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.28 19:50:00 -
[636]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Hori To
been told to ungroup guns for fleet fights, because ungrouped guns perform better under laggy conditions.
We are aware of this request from FCs to do this and why. It is also being worked as well with potential good changes going out to remedy this this.
Incidentally, if you can solve the issue of weapon groups locking, we will not only love you long time, you'll probably see a step change in server performance in big fights. Because grouping weapons is great. It's probably one of the single best improvements you guys have made, and we would dearly love to be able to use grouped weapons in fleet fight as well. If you can improve performance to the point where it's not a disadvantage to group weapons, we'll all suddenly start doing it.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Shin Dari
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Posted - 2010.10.28 19:51:00 -
[637]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis It still does not change the reality that we want to ensure enjoyable fleet fights for all which is our primary objective for fleet fights. Currently the drake and the many fleets utilizing it are burdening the server with much higher load simultaneously being the chief cause of the lag and then resilient to lags effects since over the sheer weight of fleet numbers we need to cope with.
The logical path is to drill down and find the root cause of this popularity, something we have done by posing the question openly with you all as well to which many of you have objectively or passionately replied and broached the topic nicely which has been very cool to see. If the reason is imbalance in the ship itself or with the missiles, then its typically something that is straight forward to change in a much shorter time frame than our longer term investigation and refactoring of the missile system for example which would take significantly more man-hours (lots and lots comparatively but it will be done someday).
The fighter bombers are receiving fake missiles but changing missiles you are I fire from a ship takes a lot more design and code work since we need to redo many of the game mechanics surrounding missiles if that is to happen and is not something we would label short term or even medium term to an extent given the size of the change.
As CCP Atlas commented on here, we are exploring all possibilities right now. One thing that has risen from our analysis of fleet fights for example of the many drake pilots, is that only half are grouping their launchers. This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well.
I really have to comment on this, its not the Drake causing lag, its the missiles. Taking care of the missiles will be a higher investment in time, but the relative return on investment is far greater.
In the meantime some other more simple measures can be taken: 1. An auto-grouping of all weapons upon entering a fleet. 2. Increase missile velocity by factor 3 and decrease flight time by factor 3. The faster the missile are, the smaller the pile of missiles will be in the server.
Also the rock-paper-scissors chain should be kept intact. However we do need more BCs, each race needs a Tank/Bait BC, a Gank BC and an General BC.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.28 20:07:00 -
[638]
Originally by: Shin Dari However we do need more BCs, each race needs a Tank/Bait BC, a Gank BC and an General BC.
~Citation needed
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.28 20:23:00 -
[639]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Hori To
been told to ungroup guns for fleet fights, because ungrouped guns perform better under laggy conditions.
We are aware of this request from FCs to do this and why. It is also being worked as well with potential good changes going out to remedy this this.
Incidentally, if you can solve the issue of weapon groups locking, we will not only love you long time, you'll probably see a step change in server performance in big fights. Because grouping weapons is great. It's probably one of the single best improvements you guys have made, and we would dearly love to be able to use grouped weapons in fleet fight as well. If you can improve performance to the point where it's not a disadvantage to group weapons, we'll all suddenly start doing it.
Malc I wrote a post on this also, peeps often on purpose ungroup weapons to Lag up larger groups or do it a a defens move so new reinforcements will take forever to load on grid.
I think once 100 or more peeps are in a system Ships with more than 2 groups of weapons should not be allowed in system, have some bull**** bla blah blah explanation but dont let them in, this would decrease lag tons.
100 Drakes=700 HML`s firing every 8-9 secs, grouped it goes to 350 at max or less if they group as one.
They wont nerf the drake there would be way to much backlash. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.10.28 21:12:00 -
[640]
Originally by: Shin Dari
Originally by: CCP Chronotis It still does not change the reality that we want to ensure enjoyable fleet fights for all which is our primary objective for fleet fights. Currently the drake and the many fleets utilizing it are burdening the server with much higher load simultaneously being the chief cause of the lag and then resilient to lags effects since over the sheer weight of fleet numbers we need to cope with.
The logical path is to drill down and find the root cause of this popularity, something we have done by posing the question openly with you all as well to which many of you have objectively or passionately replied and broached the topic nicely which has been very cool to see. If the reason is imbalance in the ship itself or with the missiles, then its typically something that is straight forward to change in a much shorter time frame than our longer term investigation and refactoring of the missile system for example which would take significantly more man-hours (lots and lots comparatively but it will be done someday).
The fighter bombers are receiving fake missiles but changing missiles you are I fire from a ship takes a lot more design and code work since we need to redo many of the game mechanics surrounding missiles if that is to happen and is not something we would label short term or even medium term to an extent given the size of the change.
As CCP Atlas commented on here, we are exploring all possibilities right now. One thing that has risen from our analysis of fleet fights for example of the many drake pilots, is that only half are grouping their launchers. This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well.
I really have to comment on this, its not the Drake causing lag, its the missiles. Taking care of the missiles will be a higher investment in time, but the relative return on investment is far greater.
In the meantime some other more simple measures can be taken: 1. An auto-grouping of all weapons upon entering a fleet. 2. Increase missile velocity by factor 3 and decrease flight time by factor 3. The faster the missile are, the smaller the pile of missiles will be in the server.
Also the rock-paper-scissors chain should be kept intact. However we do need more BCs, each race needs a Tank/Bait BC, a Gank BC and an General BC.
A volley of missiles is not tracked as one it is tracked as a group. This is easily seen when one or two missiles are destroyed on the way to the target. Grouping or ungrouping will have no effect on the number in the sky.
The only real way to do it is to remover missiles as an object entirely. givin launchers a variable RoF depending on distance/velocity and making the missiles instant damage. This eliminates missiles from range, and as an esteemed colleague pointed out will cause the DPS at long range to drop somewhat.
This will kill all the complaints in this thread, more balanced DPS at range between the BC's, (when you get close your DPS will increase without changing mods/ammo), and no missiles spiking the server.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.28 21:25:00 -
[641]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider A volley of missiles is not tracked as one it is tracked as a group of individuals. This is easily seen when one or two missiles are destroyed on the way to the target. Grouping or ungrouping will have no effect on the number in the sky.
The only real way to do it is to remover missiles as an object entirely. givin launchers a variable RoF depending on distance/velocity and making the missiles instant damage. This eliminates missiles from range, and as an esteemed colleague pointed out will cause the DPS at long range to drop somewhat.
This will kill all the complaints in this thread, more balanced DPS at range between the BC's, (when you get close your DPS will increase without changing mods/ammo), and no missiles spiking the server.
they only turn into multiple objects when the missiles burned out, until that they are one big missile with the combined HP and dmg of all missiles in the group.
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VC General
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Posted - 2010.10.28 21:56:00 -
[642]
Edited by: VC General on 28/10/2010 22:01:08 I think one of the points being missed here is that you can fit all Caldari DPS ships in the same manner. The reason drakes have gained popularity over the other types is price. They're cheap, insurable, and can be fit in an optimal manner by a relatively young player. If there were enough wealthy and skilled Raven or Rokh pilots out there to pull off these kinds of fleets, that's what we'd be seeing.
I think the main problem is shield tanking. It's been horribly unbalanced for a long time, but no one cared because almost all shield tankers are missile ships, and no one wanted missile boats in their fleets. Now a light has gone off in someone's head, and they realized a shield tanked ship can stuff their lows full of damage mods without sacrificing EHP. The word was spread, and now we have Drake fleets.
Edit: One more thing. If missiles cause extra load on the server, does that mean that all lag is caused by the hundreds of people in Motsu doing Guristas missions where they have like 60 rats firing missiles at them for 10-20 minutes straight?
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.28 22:26:00 -
[643]
Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 28/10/2010 22:30:20
Originally by: Kail Storm They wont nerf the drake there would be way to much backlash.
You have way too much faith in people. I fully expect the drake (and likely launchers in general) to hit the ground teeth-first. Not that it wouldn't happen in it's own time if the 'firewall' strategy took root.
If they planned to solve it with due dilligence the "logical" way, they wouldn't have even pointed the finger in the first place at the drake.
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Kaltooth
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.10.28 23:35:00 -
[644]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
One thing that has risen from our analysis of fleet fights for example of the many drake pilots, is that only half are grouping their launchers. This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well.
You do realize that grouping missile launchers makes them more vulnerable to defender missiles compared to non-grouped launchers right? As a giant cluster, all defenders can target and hit it. Non-grouped means that even if all defenders are fired, only the first missile is destroyed leaving the other 6 to fly on. Obviously though, defender missiles aren't really used, but this helps counter the usage before it even started. In comparison, guns can be grouped without care because tracking disruptors work on the ship itself instead of per launcher like defenders.
I'd say the drake is fine. The issue is more of infinite cap and free flight time on missiles under heavy loads.
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lupusmoon
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Posted - 2010.10.28 23:51:00 -
[645]
rant/
ok lets just scrap missile all together - dont even change the drake or any other missile boat.
skip the rocket update - no need to change them after all(lag and all).
and poof! we solve the lag issue over night. drakes will now be completly useless, we wont even have to worry about all them mission runners 'lagging' things up anymore either.
give it 8-9 months, then pull the rockets and all launchers boats from the game.
wait another 8-9 months and poof we can just drop caldari from the game now too(and hell lets just poof gallente while we're at it, everyone will be Amarr/Minmitar anyway)
hell i can solve all the mom problems to - just nerf drones to hell and back, wait, then delete them too. Now all we would have are turret sniping platforms blob fighting everywhere but the lag would be 'bye bye' and we can sit around thanking ccp for finally killing faildari while despretly trying to rember that other race we used to have around here that never amounted to much while 'still' complaining about fleets still blobbing 2-3 ships like we do now.
/rant
but really turning missile into visual effects only just turns them into uber turrets. they would now be instant/delayed, always hitting(though variable dmg), none tracking required, full range(will hit anywhere from 0-max),none cap using and if u use FoF ammo - no targeting required 'turrets'
and then nobady would use real turrets, seeing how they can miss, that whole 'transversal' thing, have tracking issues, actually 'need' to have a target lock,cap draining, and have that irritating optimal +/- fall-off issue.
now an actual balancing would be to give rockets/missiles a turn radious, thus effecting there angle of correction in flight. Granting a higher turn radi to lighter missiles and a lower turn radi to heaver missiles. meaning that fast ships at range can dodge heavy missiles. keep the precision and high dmg - precision loses dps for turn radi while high dmg gains dps at the cost of turn radi.
to effect lag ccp will 'have' to enforce a system pop cap - remove the sov system(thus removing a need for supersized fleets) and accept that ppl will use the pop cap as a tactic. make POS's destructible to say a 50-60 BS fleet.
tactics have more of an effect the smaller the group that is fighting, hence why mob tactics have taken over. instead of trying to make its easier for supersized fights, we need to force ppl to fight within the server limits.
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Yaay
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
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Posted - 2010.10.29 00:58:00 -
[646]
Missiles aren't the problem, it's the drakes resist. The drake is the only BC in game capable of getting such a high tank while sustaining it's dps. But it doesn't just get a buffer tank, it get's a resist tank too. This doesn't make sense. The drake is popular because the resistances affect remote repair, which is why FC's insist people fly drakes.
I'd readily take a fleet of harbingers and hurricanes if the drakes resist weren't so damn high. And I'd still do drake blobs too, but I'd be less inclined to tell the other races to sod off b/c they're the weak point of the fleet.
Shields naturally have an easier time getting resistances up because Invul fields > EAN's. But the drake get's the addition of a 20-25% ship bonus too that's not even stacking penalized.
Everyone keeps yelling that the drakes tank is it's defining characteristic. But you refuse to even consider a shield capacity bonus over a resist bonus. It gives the same buffer, just lower resist. Obviously, that says that you know the resistance is too good, and refuse to lose it.
Change the resist to a shield capacity bonus and the issues with the drake go away over night. B/c it's a hell of a lot easier to shoot down a RR fleet with lower resist than it is to try and plug away at something that requires 33% more fleet dps to do the same damage.
Either that, or some other extreme negative similar to what the rohk and abaddon and prophecy experience.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.29 01:43:00 -
[647]
Originally by: Yaay
Either that, or some other extreme negative similar to what the rohk and abaddon and prophecy experience.
Do tell what the extreme negative of the abaddon is.
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Lili Lu
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Posted - 2010.10.29 01:44:00 -
[648]
Originally by: Malcanis we have a near perfect rock-paper-scissors situation with BS beats Drakes beats AHACs beats BS. Take away the drakes, and all that will be left are AHAC fleets.
You know I loves ya my fellow INIT peoples Malcy But, I disagree with your three cornered rock paper scissors portrayal of fleet balance. And more to the point, I disagree about the Drake.
First let's look at your statement that I quoted. BSs are a ship class, AHACs are a ship class. Our BS fleets consist of many different types of BSs and imo would not work if they were a monoculture (I believe that even if they were all mighty scorch slingers). Our AHAC fleets are not monoculture either (again even though the ship in the majority within them ususally is the scorch slinging Zealot) and would not work if they were. However, a Drake is not a ship class, it is an individual ship. So one of the corners of your triumvirate of fleet types is not like the others. This suggests imbalance with that individual ship, does it not?
We don't see alliances fielding Myrmidon Hurricane or Harbinger fleets in an important internet spaceship battle because those ships all have downsides and tradeoffs that must be made, especially if they try to fit a tank as sturdy as a drake and have the same range and damage potential at the same time. It simply can't be done. The Drake has to make no tradeoffs. Buffer tank in mids and rigs, damage mods in lows, full potential damage not affected by engagement range out to a max that is beyond the max of any turret system on a BC (again unless those turret BCs want to sacrifice even more slots than damage mod slots), choice of damage type if needed etc . . .
I know everyone poopoos pve arguments. However, I'll reassert that the pve advantages of the Drake also do matter and do create an imbalance harmful to the game. I started out Amarr, and when Amarr was in the toilet. I knew if I wanted to make money in level 4s I had to train a BS, and while Amaarr ships have improved the same situation still holds. The same for Minmatar, and even for Gallente since the bandwidth of the Myrm was nerfed into oblivion (same bandwidth as a vexor ). Top it off you can actually sport a better tank on a drake than many BSs. Yes the damage is nothing great, but it is enough to get the job done. So Caldari pilots have enjoyed an earlier entry into the pve money earning level 4 game ever since I began playing in 2006 and they still have that advantage. Top it off with drake flyer snotty nose responses to requests for skill fitting and tactic advise as a missioning neophyte in missioning discussions and yeah I's mad and still am.
I personally think the tanking bonuses the Myrm and Drake got broke the pattern that should have been preserved when the tier 2 BCs came out. Ganking bonuses with an extra tank slot as the Harb and Hurricane got would have resulted in a Drake with the same slot layout but no resist bonus and in it's place some innocuous weapon bonus in addition to it's damage bonus (like the Harb's cap use reduction bonus, and the Hurricane's rof bonus which either makes arty simply useable or makes ac pretty damn good but of course at a short range).
Anyway, what can be done? Options- take away the Drake's resist and the Myrm's armor rep bonuses. Replace them with a racial minor weapon bonus like flight time or tracking and leave the slots as they are. Or- leave the tanking bonuses there but reduce the damage output of these two ships (well, that's already been done to the Myrm with the overdone bandwidth nerf). So, for the Drake reduce the launchers to 6. Regardless, whatever is done to the individual ships, one accross the board change has to be made to all BCs for some pve balance. The shield recharge time should be increased to 1500 or 1600. Whatever amount will diminish the ridiculous BS sized or better passive shield tanks that can fit on the entire class even if they are supposed to armor tank. |
Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.29 01:52:00 -
[649]
You're ok with amarr ships (apoc/zealot in most cases) being the backbone of a fleet, but if a drake is, that's a problem? Drake fleets do not necessitate a monoculture. They run with minmatar logistics and offer a place for other shiled tanked ships for support. Tengu, vulture, and just about any other shield tanked cruiser/bc is a welcome addition if not debatably superior. Then again, i'd seriously debate the idea you suggested (that a pure amarr bs fleet wouldn't be superior to a mixed bs fleet) aswell.
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Lili Lu
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.29 02:13:00 -
[650]
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk You're ok with amarr ships (apoc/zealot in most cases) being the backbone of a fleet, but if a drake is, that's a problem? Drake fleets do not necessitate a monoculture. They run with minmatar logistics and offer a place for other shiled tanked ships for support. Tengu, vulture, and just about any other shield tanked cruiser/bc is a welcome addition if not debatably superior. Then again, i'd seriously debate the idea you suggested (that a pure amarr bs fleet wouldn't be superior to a mixed bs fleet) aswell.
Well that's some misinterpretation and assumption there fella.
How do you read what I said as preferring an Amarr ship backbone? I specifically said such fleets have a weakness that can be exploited (that's tanking against damage type btw). I also have no problem with a damage nerf on scorch, unless of course the dev talk about tech II ammo rebalance results in a buff to other types to accomplish balance.
Drake fleets are a monoculture. Only scrubs fly Hurricanes or whatever in them because those are just tasty primaries to an opposing FC. Yes minamatar logistics are used so what. Have you looked at battle overviews on killboards with Drake fleets? It's not even duck duck goose it's duck x 100 then goose .
Anyway, good luck with your all Amarr fleet. Take that puppy out all the time and guess what hardeners you will always be shooting into. And an alpha-ing 1400 arty fleet might have fun with you as well.
I can understand Caldari flyers being worried about their pvp options. But that's just it, what "option" is Drake all the time? Hybrids can use a buff which might also be accomplished through an ammo rework I also think such a buff would be good for the game. This would open mmore options for Caldari pilots than any preservation of Drake supremacy can.
Drakes and shield gangs can still be around, they just will be what BCs are probably best used for, which is a dps platform in a roaming context. Drake backbones for alliance wide fleet battles are a sad development in my opinion. Ahac gangs require a hell of a lot of skill training, pilot knowledge, role understanding, and practice. Drake fleets require less in every one of those categories. If you don't understand that you have more to learn. I don't want a boring easy game in pve or pvp. Do you?
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.29 02:59:00 -
[651]
Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 29/10/2010 03:06:17 Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 29/10/2010 03:02:14 Uh.. what's this mythical non-amarr based battleship fleet you're speaking of? Usually backed with amarr caps, amarr logi, and has a cyno lit by an amarr recon...
I think you get the picture. The fact you have a few megathrons in your fleet doesn't mean you aren't being carried by amarr ships.
I don't disagree about hyrbids needing a buff, or caldari having other "options," but in all honesty i've flown more apoc fleets in my years than drake fleets by a an order 100x or more. I don't mean to imply amarr needs a nerf, but I think people ought to let the drake fleets ride. It's not as established and it's bound to fail just like everything else. We already know it has a weakness.
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Akisawa
Caldari Path Of The Cursed
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Posted - 2010.10.29 03:04:00 -
[652]
lol, Caldari are gonna be soooo screwed, not a single pvp-able ship CCP really need to play their own game more not even sure I want to bother with this crap anymore, thank God for incoming Star wars MMO from Bioware and Diablo3
--- Improving my day by ruining yours
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Lili Lu
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.10.29 03:16:00 -
[653]
You two recent posters (one of whom obviously suffers from Amarr hate/envy) strike me as too specialized and too attached to one race, that being Caldari. Try training another race. I have one main flying Amarr and Minmatar. Another flying Caldari and Gallente.
I suggest you do this (train a second race) if you haven't already. It helps you gain a wider perspective on the ships in the game. It can also make you appreciate advantageous aspects of your original race that you missed when it was your only race. Most importantly, training at least two races is also your best remedy against being in the suck in this game, whether real or perceived.
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Spc One
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.29 04:22:00 -
[654]
Drake is good as it is. If you want to train drake train for t-2 missiles and bc to level 5 and you'll have full dps and tank for it.
You can also make a long range harbinger with beams and since ccp will give some love to t-2 ammo beams will rock and do a nice damage at 54km + 9600m falloff (Aurora M). Zealot gives you about 80km optimal with Aurora M.
____________________________________________________________________________ Angel 0/A |
Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.29 04:30:00 -
[655]
Originally by: Akisawa lol, Caldari are gonna be soooo screwed, not a single pvp-able ship CCP really need to play their own game more not even sure I want to bother with this crap anymore, thank God for incoming Star wars MMO from Bioware and Diablo3
I recommend you the Black Prophecy. Sure it will be as nice as Neocron was in days of it's popularity.
Quote: CCP really need to play their own game more
+1 Saying Drake is suddenly got unreasonable popular (without ANY changes in it's stats since 2007) and saying directly that with high chance it will be nerfed to scrap just because it got popular only as AHAC (real reason Drakes are widely used today) counter and causing lags with it's missiles. Gosh... The only thing caused that lags is CCP since it is their code and mechanics in missile combat. And now they're saying that instead of fixing main lag it would be better to kill Drake, like a really lazy surgeon who prefers to chop wounded leg or hand instead of fixing and healing it. What they gonna do if EVE catch head wound, I wonder?
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.29 05:01:00 -
[656]
Originally by: Yaay Missiles aren't the problem, it's the drakes resist. The drake is the only BC in game capable of getting such a high tank while sustaining it's dps. But it doesn't just get a buffer tank, it get's a resist tank too. This doesn't make sense. The drake is popular because the resistances affect remote repair, which is why FC's insist people fly drakes.
I'd readily take a fleet of harbingers and hurricanes if the drakes resist weren't so damn high. And I'd still do drake blobs too, but I'd be less inclined to tell the other races to sod off b/c they're the weak point of the fleet.
Shields naturally have an easier time getting resistances up because Invul fields > EAN's. But the drake get's the addition of a 20-25% ship bonus too that's not even stacking penalized.
Everyone keeps yelling that the drakes tank is it's defining characteristic. But you refuse to even consider a shield capacity bonus over a resist bonus. It gives the same buffer, just lower resist. Obviously, that says that you know the resistance is too good, and refuse to lose it.
Change the resist to a shield capacity bonus and the issues with the drake go away over night. B/c it's a hell of a lot easier to shoot down a RR fleet with lower resist than it is to try and plug away at something that requires 33% more fleet dps to do the same damage.
Either that, or some other extreme negative similar to what the rohk and abaddon and prophecy experience.
If what you say is true the Abby would be the only BS Used or the Rokh both being not used very often in large Fights.
THERE IS NO DRAKE PROBLEM.
PEOPLE HAVE FINALLY JUST REALIZED THEY ARE A GREAT SHIP. This means people were stupid for 2 years not using them.
Init has showed now a bunch of times how to counter the drake easily.
All in all its not becaus 1 thing, its because they are the RPG/AK-47 of Eve,so simple a child/carebear can use 1, effective in what they do but above all else CHEAP, you now have players who before wouldnt risk a Cruiser flying a Drake who is 14 days old who actually fights in fleets, that was suicide before and they were only tacklers back in the day.
If you wanna "fix" the Drake, fix blobbing/needfor blobs on all sov war.
If it was only Tanks Rokh would be the most popular 160k EHP and 400 DPS@ 100km womps the Drake considering it has the same resists, also it would do insta DMG and not just kinetic but Therm as well.
Face it its cheap and easy, the END
Stop *****ing you little Pies -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.29 05:39:00 -
[657]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Malcanis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/skyral/thefirewall.mp4 if you want to download it.
Dont worry about drakes. They're easily countered.
Currently the drake and the many fleets utilizing it are burdening the server with much higher load simultaneously being the chief cause of the lag and then resilient to lags effects since over the sheer weight of fleet numbers we need to cope with.
The logical path is to drill down and find the root cause of this popularity. If the reason is imbalance in the ship itself or with the missiles, then its typically something that is straight forward to change in a much shorter time frame than our longer term investigation and refactoring of the missile system for example which would take significantly more man-hours (lots and lots comparatively but it will be done someday).
The fighter bombers are receiving fake missiles but changing missiles you are I fire from a ship takes a lot more design and code work since we need to redo many of the game mechanics surrounding missiles if that is to happen and is not something we would label short term or even medium term to an extent given the size of the change.
As CCP Atlas commented on here, we are exploring all possibilities right now. One thing that has risen from our analysis of fleet fights for example of the many drake pilots, is that only half are grouping their launchers. This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well.
That's as close to an admission of and ongoing and impending nerf as I've ever seen.
You already killed off Cruise missiles for PvP, you don't see Torp Ravens much anymore either, barring a camp or two maybe, armor gangs rule the roost everywhere else, our only solo boat is getting "looked at". Lots of skill training gathering dust now, btw. Obviously this is some long term plan to make shield tanking missile ships useless so they are not flown, right? Well, it's working. PS: Rails are still horrible in every way that matters. Go PvP in an Eagle or a rail Ferox and then come back and tell us how it went, eh?
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Keras Authion
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Posted - 2010.10.29 06:19:00 -
[658]
Originally by: Lili Lu Try training another race. I have one main flying Amarr and Minmatar. Another flying Caldari and Gallente.
I suggest you do this (train a second race) if you haven't already. It helps you gain a wider perspective on the ships in the game. It can also make you appreciate advantageous aspects of your original race that you missed when it was your only race. Most importantly, training at least two races is also your best remedy against being in the suck in this game, whether real or perceived.
While I do agree with your point, it's not really possible for everyone. As you know you shouldn't specialize in too many things at a time or you will suck at all of them. Switching from caldari to amarr or gallente needs training gunnery and armour skills (some of the minmatar ships might be flyable, although armed with missiles). A low SP player like me just can't sprawl into everything and think of being useful at all. "I have 8 million SP and can fly caldari and amarr battleships" sounds pretty bad, doesn't it?
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Lemmy Kravitz
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Posted - 2010.10.29 06:34:00 -
[659]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Malcanis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/skyral/thefirewall.mp4 if you want to download it.
Dont worry about drakes. They're easily countered.
I'll be a douche, in previous statements you said we aren't nerfing the drake cause it causes lag. Now you are say Yes we are nerfing the drake because it causes lag.
Maybe you need to fix the lag, not the drake. We have no doubt that new strategies would emerge given time as posted earlier in the thread (though smartbombs also are quite load heavy albeit pretty - nice vid btw!). It still does not change the reality that we want to ensure enjoyable fleet fights for all which is our primary objective for fleet fights. Currently the drake and the many fleets utilizing it are burdening the server with much higher load simultaneously being the chief cause of the lag and then resilient to lags effects since over the sheer weight of fleet numbers we need to cope with.
The logical path is to drill down and find the root cause of this popularity, something we have done by posing the question openly with you all as well to which many of you have objectively or passionately replied and broached the topic nicely which has been very cool to see. If the reason is imbalance in the ship itself or with the missiles, then its typically something that is straight forward to change in a much shorter time frame than our longer term investigation and refactoring of the missile system for example which would take significantly more man-hours (lots and lots comparatively but it will be done someday).
The fighter bombers are receiving fake missiles but changing missiles you are I fire from a ship takes a lot more design and code work since we need to redo many of the game mechanics surrounding missiles if that is to happen and is not something we would label short term or even medium term to an extent given the size of the change.
As CCP Atlas commented on here, we are exploring all possibilities right now. One thing that has risen from our analysis of fleet fights for example of the many drake pilots, is that only half are grouping their launchers. This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well.
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Yaay
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
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Posted - 2010.10.29 06:35:00 -
[660]
Edited by: Yaay on 29/10/2010 06:45:07
Originally by: Kail Storm
If what you say is true the Abby would be the only BS Used or the Rokh both being not used very often in large Fights.
THERE IS NO DRAKE PROBLEM.
PEOPLE HAVE FINALLY JUST REALIZED THEY ARE A GREAT SHIP. This means people were stupid for 2 years not using them.
Init has showed now a bunch of times how to counter the drake easily.
All in all its not becaus 1 thing, its because they are the RPG/AK-47 of Eve,so simple a child/carebear can use 1, effective in what they do but above all else CHEAP, you now have players who before wouldnt risk a Cruiser flying a Drake who is 14 days old who actually fights in fleets, that was suicide before and they were only tacklers back in the day.
If you wanna "fix" the Drake, fix blobbing/needfor blobs on all sov war.
If it was only Tanks Rokh would be the most popular 160k EHP and 400 DPS@ 100km womps the Drake considering it has the same resists, also it would do insta DMG and not just kinetic but Therm as well.
Face it its cheap and easy, the END
Stop *****ing you little Pies
Abaddon has serious capacitor issues unless you use a cap injector. And even then, your capacitor is limited to time.
Rohk has serious capacitor issues and serious tracking issues.
Prophecy has serious Issues with fittings to be competitive and serious issues with dps to be competitive.
Ferox has serious issues with fittings, and serious issues with DPS.
All ships with resistances bonuses have drawbacks. The Abaddon is rare in that a cap injector can make it useful in the short term, but in the long term, it's very weak. Abaddon also has much greater capacitor issues with LR guns than with CR guns.
And yes, you still see it heavily used by people experienced.
What is the drake drawback comparable to any of these other ships?
Nobody said you can't counter the drake. But that debate is not w/o flaw. You put any good fc up against any average or poor FC and they will win engagements virtually regaurdless of the ships. Fight's don't often occur simply because of suicidal tendencies. How many fights weren't actually taken in the first place b/c of fleet choices?
The issues isn't whether the drake can be countered and beaten. The issue is why is one ship so dominate over the others within it's class?
You guys keep avoiding this topic. And when you do attack the topic, you always revert to the 1v1 scenario in some blind litmus test. I've seen people kill a battleship in an interceptor? Does that really tell the story, or does it just occur infrequently?
People act like this drake boom is new. It's not new, it's mainstream now. Things in eve take time to catch on to where they begin to run rampant. It doesn't change the fact that they were problems before.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
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bartos100
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Posted - 2010.10.29 06:48:00 -
[661]
the issue is not the drake
you just have to use the correct counter
firewall
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Lemmy Kravitz
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Posted - 2010.10.29 06:49:00 -
[662]
Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 29/10/2010 06:52:54 well how about this..... DON'T touch the drake stats. it is fine as it is.
INSTEAD if you HAVE to nerf. Make it more expensive to build!!! I personally have no clue how to do industry but I assume if we were to make it cost 25%-50% more in materials we will see a dramatic rise in price for the drake. This way 1.) drake stats don't get touched. stay the same crappy ship it has always been. 2.) less people will fly it because it is no longer very cost effective. Less people fly drakes, less lag on your servers. Drakes are nerfed without really being nerfed.
Also I think this is the best suggestion ever because it would take the least amount of coding. All you guys at CCP have to do is open a file, and change a couple numbers for trit and what ever else the drake BPO/BPC's have it need. No mechanics no nothing to mess with. Just a couple of values for minerals.
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Yaay
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
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Posted - 2010.10.29 09:27:00 -
[663]
Originally by: Lemmy Kravitz Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 29/10/2010 06:52:54 well how about this..... DON'T touch the drake stats. it is fine as it is.
INSTEAD if you HAVE to nerf. Make it more expensive to build!!! I personally have no clue how to do industry but I assume if we were to make it cost 25%-50% more in materials we will see a dramatic rise in price for the drake. This way 1.) drake stats don't get touched. stay the same crappy ship it has always been. 2.) less people will fly it because it is no longer very cost effective. Less people fly drakes, less lag on your servers. Drakes are nerfed without really being nerfed.
Also I think this is the best suggestion ever because it would take the least amount of coding. All you guys at CCP have to do is open a file, and change a couple numbers for trit and what ever else the drake BPO/BPC's have it need. No mechanics no nothing to mess with. Just a couple of values for minerals.
Thank god you're not a dev b/c obviously you haven't read the forums for long. You cannot balance the game with isk and skillpoint arguments. Tried and proven and any vet will confirm it.
Insurance will rule out any mineral tweak you make b/c it's tech 1. And 50% more cost still keeps the drake cheaper than a teir 1 BS.
Still have yet to hear one person's logic on why changing the resist to a 5% shield capacity bonus per level wouldn't work. Guess people want to avoid logic so they can keep their silly resist.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
VC General
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Posted - 2010.10.29 09:29:00 -
[664]
Oh that'd be too simple. And you're 100% right as well. The Drake is cheap compared to what it is capable of in terms of what most people see as the most important aspect of any ship, the tank and DPS. Of course the Drake fails at pretty much every other aspect of the game, but no one cares since they figure it's not fair for the Drake to look that good in EFT.
One thing that everyone forgets is that Drakes have BS-sized sig radius and speed when buffer tanked. Any ship in the game short of a dread can hit them for full damage at nearly any range. I don't see why everyone is QQ'ing about BC vs BC. If people want to self-paint themselves up to 500+ sig radius in a BC, just bring out the pulse lasers, artys, and torps for the easy win.
If we're whining just because same-size ships are imbalanced, then this discussion needs to take a number and get in line.
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Yaay
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
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Posted - 2010.10.29 09:39:00 -
[665]
Edited by: Yaay on 29/10/2010 09:46:12
Originally by: VC General Oh that'd be too simple. And you're 100% right as well. The Drake is cheap compared to what it is capable of in terms of what most people see as the most important aspect of any ship, the tank and DPS. Of course the Drake fails at pretty much every other aspect of the game, but no one cares since they figure it's not fair for the Drake to look that good in EFT.
One thing that everyone forgets is that Drakes have BS-sized sig radius and speed when buffer tanked. Any ship in the game short of a dread can hit them for full damage at nearly any range. I don't see why everyone is QQ'ing about BC vs BC. If people want to self-paint themselves up to 500+ sig radius in a BC, just bring out the pulse lasers, artys, and torps for the easy win.
If we're whining just because same-size ships are imbalanced, then this discussion needs to take a number and get in line.
Speed isn't the same as a plated BS, it's about 300 more. Scan res is more than double, which makes it much faster to lock small targets. Missiles always hit, and heavy missiles hit smaller ships for a lot of damage. Battleships have tracking issues. You can get a drake to 120+ ehp or more while still dealing 350 damage at 80km range. By comparrison, no battleship except the apoc can do that with close range guns to keep their tracking reasonable, and even then, the apoc only approximately matches the EHP tank. But in terms of resistances, the Apoc will fall way short.
And still, No other BC can come close to matching that ability. They can't get the same tank, at the same range, nor the same tank while in close and at best they can only approximately match the dps of a drake.
Hence the argument that it is the resistance bonus that makes the drake overpowered.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Acru Si
Amarr Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.29 09:53:00 -
[666]
[Tengu, hml - EHP monster t2] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Photon Scattering Field II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Engineering - Supplemental Coolant Injector Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Also take a look at the T3 drake. Even (much)more EHP on cruiser sig and agility. Better DPS, lock range, maximum range, scan resolution and sensor strength. It takes all of drake strenghts and has few of its weaknesses. Any drake rebalancing should also consider tengu.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2010.10.29 10:14:00 -
[667]
Originally by: Acru Si [Tengu, hml - EHP monster t2] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Photon Scattering Field II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Engineering - Supplemental Coolant Injector Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Also take a look at the T3 drake. Even (much)more EHP on cruiser sig and agility. Better DPS, lock range, maximum range, scan resolution and sensor strength. It takes all of drake strenghts and has few of its weaknesses. Any drake rebalancing should also consider tengu.
Thats as bad a tengu fit as the ops drake fit
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Shin Dari
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Posted - 2010.10.29 10:20:00 -
[668]
Originally by: Yaay
And still, No other BC can come close to matching that ability. They can't get the same tank, at the same range, nor the same tank while in close and at best they can only approximately match the dps of a drake.
Hence the argument that it is the resistance bonus that makes the drake overpowered.
Here is a fact for you: Drakes can be countered. Thus they can't be overpowered. Which leads to the conclusion that your problem can be solved by adding Tank BCs for the other races.
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Yaay
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
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Posted - 2010.10.29 10:40:00 -
[669]
Originally by: Shin Dari
Originally by: Yaay
And still, No other BC can come close to matching that ability. They can't get the same tank, at the same range, nor the same tank while in close and at best they can only approximately match the dps of a drake.
Hence the argument that it is the resistance bonus that makes the drake overpowered.
Here is a fact for you: Drakes can be countered. Thus they can't be overpowered. Which leads to the conclusion that your problem can be solved by adding Tank BCs for the other races.
HOW MANY TIMES DOES IT HAVE TO BE SAID.
IT'S NOT ABOUT COUNTERING DRAKES
There is a way to counter everything in this game. It doesn't mean that it's not out of balance. This is why Nano got nerfed even if CCP was way heavy handed. It's why supers desperately need to be nerfed. There are/were ways to counter both, but they were/are still out of balance with the rest of the game.
I'm so ****ing sick of people saying there's a counter. It's got nothing to do with the counter. It's got to do with bland predictable game play.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.29 10:58:00 -
[670]
Originally by: Yaay
Still have yet to hear one person's logic on why changing the resist to a 5% shield capacity bonus per level wouldn't work. Guess people want to avoid logic so they can keep their silly resist.
The Drake is not overpowered in small gang combat. Therefore, the problem is not the shield resist bonus itself. The problem appears with the combination of shield resists and logistics (and lag) Therefore, nerf logistics. (And lag.) This will also help the other side of the same EHP + resists + good damage problem - AhAC Zealots.
Well that was hard.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.29 11:06:00 -
[671]
Wait there is a counter to supercaps? Please tell (bringing more supercaps yourself or outnumbering them 10 to 1 with dreads is not a counter, and doubtfull it is enough).
Tbh the resists bonuses need to be looked at, but not because the drake would be OP. But simply because it is too good compared to the active tank bonuses other ships get, either they need buff or resist a nerf. Problem is that resist bonus is almost as good as active tank bonus for active tank, and aditionally it also works on remote reps and on EHP. But as said, not because drakes would be OP.
All this comparing with maximum drake range is stupid anyway. Yes a drake is good at its maximum missile range, look 1km further and suddenly the turret battlecruisers are infinitely better. (Btw at max missile range a myrm can still outperform drake). Or look at the damage a beam harbinger and HM drake (both long range weapons) do on pod at 10km distance with halo implants for extra low sig radius and moving full speed but 0 transversal. Want to bet the harbie with MF does waaaayyyy more dps than the drake? If you compare for specific situations you can always find something where one ship performs best, otherwise all ships would be equal.
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.29 12:44:00 -
[672]
Originally by: Lili Lu
...bandwidth of the Myrm was nerfed into oblivion (same bandwidth as a vexor )...
yes, because it had same drone dps than dominix and almost same gun damage than dominix, and it manage to have over 1000 dps passive shield tank at same time (better than drake) . So it could easily beat bs on 1 vs 1, that was quite imbalance.
OFC you can still kill bs with bc but i think it is on balance now.
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.29 13:10:00 -
[673]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Malcanis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/skyral/thefirewall.mp4 if you want to download it.
Dont worry about drakes. They're easily countered.
We have no doubt that new strategies would emerge given time as posted earlier in the thread (though smartbombs also are quite load heavy albeit pretty - nice vid btw!). It still does not change the reality that we want to ensure enjoyable fleet fights for all which is our primary objective for fleet fights. Currently the drake and the many fleets utilizing it are burdening the server with much higher load simultaneously being the chief cause of the lag and then resilient to lags effects since over the sheer weight of fleet numbers we need to cope with.
The logical path is to drill down and find the root cause of this popularity, something we have done by posing the question openly with you all as well to which many of you have objectively or passionately replied and broached the topic nicely which has been very cool to see. If the reason is imbalance in the ship itself or with the missiles, then its typically something that is straight forward to change in a much shorter time frame than our longer term investigation and refactoring of the missile system for example which would take significantly more man-hours (lots and lots comparatively but it will be done someday).
The fighter bombers are receiving fake missiles but changing missiles you are I fire from a ship takes a lot more design and code work since we need to redo many of the game mechanics surrounding missiles if that is to happen and is not something we would label short term or even medium term to an extent given the size of the change.
As CCP Atlas commented on here, we are exploring all possibilities right now. One thing that has risen from our analysis of fleet fights for example of the many drake pilots, is that only half are grouping their launchers. This obviously causes a multiplicative load value since we must track 7 missiles instead of 1 or 2 as would be usual with grouped weapons to comment on one of the other avenues we are exploring alongside investigating game balance. This could be vindictive in that they are deliberately causing load to utilize it as a weapon in lag resilient setups or we prefer the better scenario that we need to add a little more incentive to group weapons which is also being explored as well.
Can CCP to make a list from ships and weapon systems that are preferred to use to reduce lag. We all do want to help CCP to make this game playable and want to help to make every thing to reduce lag.
And if we think this further , ccp should give possibility people change skills from unwanted ships and weapons to those that causes less lag. CCP has tools for that , so just let it happen.
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Phrometeus Hyks
Caldari INTRUSION COUNTERMEASURES ELECTRONICS
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Posted - 2010.10.29 13:28:00 -
[674]
Edited by: Phrometeus Hyks on 29/10/2010 13:29:25 in that video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E9uVtP7IQ4 ) i have see a strange behaviour of the missiles. Look the at the top of the group from 1:38 and from 2:28 and watch the missiles bouncing against the bs several times!! o.O I don't know if this can be important but i bet that those bouncing introduces a lot of math op and so LAG.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.29 13:28:00 -
[675]
Originally by: Yaay
Quote: Speed isn't the same as a plated BS, it's about 300 more.
If you fit nano.
Quote: Scan res is more than double, which makes it much faster to lock small targets.
22s for the capsule, 15 for dramiel, 8 for another Drake
Quote: Missiles always hit
True
Quote: heavy missiles hit smaller ships for a lot of damage
Lies, they hit for laughable damage like 20-40 from 2500 volley unless you got Percision or faction missiles, but they do much less damage to big ships.
Quote: You can get a drake to 120+ ehp
Never seen any with bigger than 100+-5k even under fleet shield boosters.
Quote: or more
I want to believe.
Quote: while still dealing 350 damage at 80km range.
I'd say 60km is range of 100% hit chance since nothing can travel 20km away from this range. From 70km - some things can.
Quote: the apoc only approximately matches the EHP tank.
Rokh can have 200k. But remember: better tank and longer range in cost of speed and size isn't good in all cases. Proven by german tanks in 1939-1945.
Quote: They can't get the same tank, at the same range, nor the same tank while in close and at best they can only approximately match the dps of a drake.
Drakes can't get the same EWAR capabilities and keep their tank at any range. Remember it, dammit.
Quote: Hence the argument that it is the resistance bonus that makes the drake overpowered.
Then my suggestion - nerf it to 3% or less (even removal will be nice) but add one more mid slot for optional Invul/Hard/Amp or EWAR module.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.29 13:38:00 -
[676]
Originally by: Acru Si Also take a look at the T3 drake. Even (much)more EHP on cruiser sig and agility. Better DPS, lock range, maximum range, scan resolution and sensor strength. It takes all of drake strenghts and has few of its weaknesses. Any drake rebalancing should also consider tengu.
The EHP is only good thing that **** fit you posted has.
Don't even lay your finger on this precious ship, or I'll get my ushanka and comrades from bear cavalry, then we will assault the CCP server room, grab the servers and throw them to the volcano they have there. After that I'll find you personally and you'll feel the glory and superiority of Caldari Communist Party while you'll be hardly working at First Caldari Spaceship Factory of Friedrich Engels for the rest of your life making new shiny Tengus IRL.
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Acru Si
Amarr Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.10.29 13:55:00 -
[677]
Originally by: Okuu Reiuji
The EHP is only good thing that **** fit you posted has.
Put the fit in the same context that gets drake OP complains (lagfest drakeblob+scimi sov wars). Any ship that its not a drake stands out from the drake crowd and gets primaried soon after. EHP and rezists its what will keep you from melting on the first minute of the engagement before logistics have a chance to work their magic. And just as the drake in his class the tengu retains supperb ranged damage projection and mobility while in full tanking mode a feat the other T3 cannot match. I'm not saying nerf the drake, i'm not saying nerf the tengu - just that any balancing effect should consider the bigger picture.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.29 14:00:00 -
[678]
Originally by: Furb Killer Wait there is a counter to supercaps?
Unfortunately, EVE's supercaps don't suffer from the trench run syndrome.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.29 14:09:00 -
[679]
Originally by: Acru Si mobility while in full tanking mode a feat the other T3 cannot match
Yeah yeah. Make a fleet of 50+ Tengus and we will talk about this "full tanking mode" then. "Fully tanked T3" means = "T3 with ****ty damage and ****ty ewar to be taken seriously as a fighting unit but can be easily tackled and killed for nice kill mail."
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Lurana Lay
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.29 14:56:00 -
[680]
Quote: I'll be a douche, in previous statements you (Chronitis) said we aren't nerfing the drake cause it causes lag. Now you are say Yes we are nerfing the drake because it causes lag.
This. Well, which is it??
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Jacob Stov
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Posted - 2010.10.29 15:00:00 -
[681]
Originally by: Lili Lu You two recent posters (one of whom obviously suffers from Amarr hate/envy) strike me as too specialized and too attached to one race, that being Caldari. Try training another race. I have one main flying Amarr and Minmatar. Another flying Caldari and Gallente.
I suggest you do this (train a second race) if you haven't already. It helps you gain a wider perspective on the ships in the game. It can also make you appreciate advantageous aspects of your original race that you missed when it was your only race. Most importantly, training at least two races is also your best remedy against being in the suck in this game, whether real or perceived.
Fine. That's exactly what I did. Still think you are clueless. If you really want to give the Drake a "minor" second bonus it becomes useless. Heavy DPS for a roaming gang. Sure. If I want that I'll take my Nanocane over your crappy "minor-bonus-Drake" any day of the week. Faster, wayyyy better locktime and better instant DPS. And thanks to the 2 neuts+ high tracking turrets, I'm even able to kill stupid frigs, unlike the lol missiles Drake.
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Zogra
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Posted - 2010.10.29 15:18:00 -
[682]
How u get those numbers cause with my HML drake and most missile skills lvl 4 and some lvl 5 i barely get 250 dps including 3% ROF and 3% HML implants...
Drake is fine its role its tank and it fits that role good Its dps suck and it doesnt need a nerf
u said 550 dps with HML
i get near 500 dps with HAM! with HML i get 250 dps max
why dont u nerf amar ship instead?
they kick ass in dps and they are very very strong armour tanks at the same time
instead to boost caldari's u gone nerf them?
this thread is a freaking joke right?
Hope CCP wont take this into consideration cause it will completely destroy the game forcing all players to fly amarr no matter if they like it or not. I dont like how amarr ships look like thats the reason i dont wanna fly them! I Admit they kick ass and i admit lazer is the best dps weapon in game but i wont fly them never! I wanna fly caldari ships cause i like how they look but i got rly dissapointed from their performance.
The only decent NOT OP just decent ship is drake and you gone nerf this to???? Stop making drake threads jeez its a poor tank its a poor ship no dps comes out of it unless u get HAM's and get full set of 5% implants and have all missile skills lvl 5 and no1 is gone get full set of 5% missile implants in low sec just to fly a HAM drake
Even with HAM max dps is around 550 and range is about 15km the range is crap every else pvp ship will outrange you especially those canes and amarr lazers.
i bet if u got an matar ship with a MWD you can get RLY fast close to drake to kick its ass there are 1 million ways to counter a HAM drake and even more to counter a HML drake |
Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.10.29 15:21:00 -
[683]
This topic of "Drake Nerf" came up last night whilst chatting on Vent waiting for WT's to do something. The subject of Tank + Gank on the 2nd tier BC's was one of the main focus points. One of our corp members suggested that the Drake should be nerfed because no other 2nd teir BC could match it for Tank + Gank. However. This simply isn't the case when considering close range engagements. The HAM Drake has very similar stats to all the other 2nd tier BC's when fitted for Gank + Heavy buffer. The other BC's tend to have far superior tackle ability or utility high slots. The only thing the HAM Drake has over the other BC's is speed(Which I think is one of the only things that should be nerfed). Then we look at long range setups. This is when it all goes to ratsh*t. The Drake has the lock range without the need for sensor boosters and HML's don't require long range ammo or range enhancing modules to hit out at long range. We'll first look at lock range, as this would have a profound effect on the Drake if it required to sacrifice tank (SeBo) or gank (SigAmp) to get the locking range to hit out to 75-85km. This is a nerf I would happily accept, even as a Drake pilot myself.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2010.10.29 15:22:00 -
[684]
Originally by: Zogra How u get those numbers cause with my HML drake and most missile skills lvl 4 and some lvl 5 i barely get 250 dps including 3% ROF and 3% HML implants...
Drake is fine its role its tank and it fits that role good Its dps suck and it doesnt need a nerf
u said 550 dps with HML
i get near 500 dps with HAM! with HML i get 250 dps max
why dont u nerf amar ship instead?
they kick ass in dps and they are very very strong armour tanks at the same time
instead to boost caldari's u gone nerf them?
this thread is a freaking joke right?
Hope CCP wont take this into consideration cause it will completely destroy the game forcing all players to fly amarr no matter if they like it or not. I dont like how amarr ships look like thats the reason i dont wanna fly them! I Admit they kick ass and i admit lazer is the best dps weapon in game but i wont fly them never! I wanna fly caldari ships cause i like how they look but i got rly dissapointed from their performance.
The only decent NOT OP just decent ship is drake and you gone nerf this to???? Stop making drake threads jeez its a poor tank its a poor ship no dps comes out of it unless u get HAM's and get full set of 5% implants and have all missile skills lvl 5 and no1 is gone get full set of 5% missile implants in low sec just to fly a HAM drake
Even with HAM max dps is around 550 and range is about 15km the range is crap every else pvp ship will outrange you especially those canes and amarr lazers.
i bet if u got an matar ship with a MWD you can get RLY fast close to drake to kick its ass there are 1 million ways to counter a HAM drake and even more to counter a HML drake
Although i also agree the drake isnt op, all of your numbers are wrong. A HAM Drake with 3 bcu's and warriors will get just shy of 700dps on heat and the hml drake will get around 550dps. Also HAM Drakes kill hurricanes fairly easily due to having double the buffer.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.29 15:23:00 -
[685]
Just think: Caldari are supposed to be the favored of the Jovians, if this is what being favored gets you...For Jeebus sake, just go favor someone else for a while.
Prediction: Drake and heavy missile nerf (which also = a Nighthawk and BB nerf) rationalized by dev alts and trolls with shady math and utterly impractical EFT whoring.
Next might be a minor but fairly useless buff to rails offset by even more onerous fitting and tracking penalties to appear to compensate somewhat. Meanwhile, 4 trillion sp wasted and uncompensated for.
Considering all the Caldari nerfs within the last two years...yeah, sounds about right.
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Zogra
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Posted - 2010.10.29 15:29:00 -
[686]
Hey btw forgot to metion drakes get no energy neutrs!
canes deal 2x dps than a drake and it gets 2x medium neutrs with a good tank, 16k+ armour only and around 70%+ to all armour resistances
i know this because i fly a cane and i tweak it a lot in EFT and i believe cane is a much better pvp ship than the drake
so drake only got a good tank crap dps (HML) or ok dps but with crappy range (HAM) HAM sucks against frigates btw no neutrs !!!!! if you use neuts dps will be so bad you wont belive it or if u use neuts ur fit will suck because of small powergrid or both......
cant find a reason to nerf drake.... stop making nerf drake threads in the name of holy jeezus mary |
Zogra
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Posted - 2010.10.29 15:40:00 -
[687]
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Originally by: Zogra How u get those numbers cause with my HML drake and most missile skills lvl 4 and some lvl 5 i barely get 250 dps including 3% ROF and 3% HML implants...
why dont u nerf amar ship instead?
they kick ass in dps and they are very very strong armour tanks at the same time
instead to boost caldari's u gone nerf them?
this thread is a freaking joke right?
Hope CCP wont take this into consideration cause it will completely destroy the game forcing all players to fly amarr no matter if they like it or not. I dont like how amarr ships look like thats the reason i dont wanna fly them! I Admit they kick ass and i admit lazer is the best dps weapon in game but i wont fly them never! I wanna fly caldari ships cause i like how they look but i got rly dissapointed from their performance.
The only decent NOT OP just decent ship is drake and you gone nerf this to???? Stop making drake threads jeez its a poor tank its a poor ship no dps comes out of it unless u get HAM's and get full set of 5% implants and have all missile skills lvl 5 and no1 is gone get full set of 5% missile implants in low sec just to fly a HAM drake
Even with HAM max dps is around 550 and range is about 15km the range is crap every else pvp ship will outrange you especially those canes and amarr lazers.
i bet if u got an matar ship with a MWD you can get RLY fast close to drake to kick its ass there are 1 million ways to counter a HAM drake and even more to counter a HML drake
Although i also agree the drake isnt op, all of your numbers are wrong. A HAM Drake with 3 bcu's and warriors will get just shy of 700dps on heat and the hml drake will get around 550dps. Also HAM Drakes kill hurricanes fairly easily due to having double the buffer.
well my skills are not maxed out yet and with my current skills gunnery and missile pretty much same skillpoints used on EFT i came up with those numbers and in my eyes HML drake's dps is very low
Thats why i get a bit crazy when i hear they gone nerf it more
BTW caldari need some love i think they suck most than all other races and they suck a lot.
Caldaris are supposed to be the missile experts and by no way they are OP i would say they are more underpowered than OP.
Nerfing HML or nerfing drake reminds of blizzard's wow and retri paladins the popular RETLOL story. 2 much hate for paladins when they where the most underpowered class.
i dont wanna this to end up to a caldari LOL ok?
Its not drakes fault if you dont know how 2 play the game or you wanna be amarr OP and nuke everything with 2 shots while you dont die (especially from a drake you will never die if its 1v1 fight!)
delete this thread in the name of jeezus mary holy crist if u wanna nerf something nerf amarr or leave the game as it is atm. |
Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.10.29 15:43:00 -
[688]
Originally by: Zogra Hey btw forgot to metion drakes get no energy neutrs!
canes deal 2x dps than a drake and it gets 2x medium neutrs with a good tank, 16k+ armour only and around 70%+ to all armour resistances
i know this because i fly a cane and i tweak it a lot in EFT and i believe cane is a much better pvp ship than the drake
so drake only got a good tank crap dps (HML) or ok dps but with crappy range (HAM) HAM sucks against frigates btw no neutrs !!!!! if you use neuts dps will be so bad you wont belive it or if u use neuts ur fit will suck because of small powergrid or both......
cant find a reason to nerf drake.... stop making nerf drake threads in the name of holy jeezus mary
[Drake, Drake: H-M-L + MNeut + Tackle] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II
Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Target Painter II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Faint Warp Disruptor I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
474 DPS 75k EHP
Yes the Drake can fit a Med Neut and still have its tank with good DPS and HML's with a Target Painter can cause frigates major problems. This however isn't a reason to nerf the Drake
Slow the thing down. Reduce the lock range. That'll be a step in the right direction.
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Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.29 16:05:00 -
[689]
CCP should give ability to remap skillpoints used for training skills for ship they gonna nerf (or nerfed already)
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Roderak Pleem
Minmatar Abandoned Land
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Posted - 2010.10.29 16:14:00 -
[690]
In a thread of this size, I cannot believe someone hasn't said the obvious words.
BECAUSE OF DRAKE!
Seriously though. Drake is fine, it can be countered (as demonstrated). perhaps a remodeling of missiles in the server code would be time better spent.
Also, after further review, I did see bouncing missile graphics in those videos too. If that is extra math being done in the server, then something is not right. Regards,
Rod |
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.29 17:10:00 -
[691]
Originally by: Roderak Pleem Also, after further review, I did see bouncing missile graphics in those videos too. If that is extra math being done in the server, then something is not right.
ok just an assumption but: 1. client side missile object "hey i am at the position of my target ship, server please tell me if i can explode" 2. server side missile object "I am still in the queue to be calculated please wait, but you can do bounce animations on the ship while waiting"
a few seconds later: 3. "hey client side missile, you can explode now, I did 250 dmg to the ship"
they might have used different "words", but all in all that might be what happened.
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Zogra
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Posted - 2010.10.29 18:03:00 -
[692]
Originally by: Spugg Galdon
Originally by: Zogra Hey btw forgot to metion drakes get no energy neutrs!
canes deal 2x dps than a drake and it gets 2x medium neutrs with a good tank, 16k+ armour only and around 70%+ to all armour resistances
i know this because i fly a cane and i tweak it a lot in EFT and i believe cane is a much better pvp ship than the drake
so drake only got a good tank crap dps (HML) or ok dps but with crappy range (HAM) HAM sucks against frigates btw no neutrs !!!!! if you use neuts dps will be so bad you wont belive it or if u use neuts ur fit will suck because of small powergrid or both......
cant find a reason to nerf drake.... stop making nerf drake threads in the name of holy jeezus mary
[Drake, Drake: H-M-L + MNeut + Tackle] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II
Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Target Painter II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Faint Warp Disruptor I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
474 DPS 75k EHP
Yes the Drake can fit a Med Neut and still have its tank with good DPS and HML's with a Target Painter can cause frigates major problems. This however isn't a reason to nerf the Drake
Slow the thing down. Reduce the lock range. That'll be a step in the right direction.
Hello, with my skills this fit wouldnt be possible even if it would EHP and especially the dps would be much lower.
I have a cane fit that deals same dps and got 2x medium neuts and it requires less skills to be made
So my point is that drake doesnt need nerf but if CCP and other players wants to nerf NP AT ALL!
Hahaha good thing i didnt maximize missile skills i had a feeling and instead i trained for matar boats xD
i know matars arent like amarrs but who gives a heck its gone be a gank fight anyway:P (most fights in eve are ganks fights than 1v1 fights) so hell ye baby nerf the drake amarr and matar FTW hell ye baby i will drain and own drake nubs with my neutralizer cane muahahahahaha ownage is coming missile nubs prepare or reroll to amarr or matar if u like the speed mostly cause artilery fails and AC is ok but its range not good enough to take down a POS so lazer FTW and all rest sucks.......
hehe i was more joking than speaking serious but now i become serious and i got to sell my drake before the price drops.... |
lupusmoon
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Posted - 2010.10.29 18:29:00 -
[693]
ran a bunch of number last night.
if we drop the 5% resists from the drake, it can still fit a good tank.
so i say drop the resists(good idea to who said it).
istead give it the same bonus setup as the kestral. (10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage and 5% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage per level)
and drop a launcher slot to balance its new dps.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.10.29 18:32:00 -
[694]
Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 29/10/2010 18:33:43
Originally by: Bad Messenger And if we think this further , ccp should give possibility people change skills from unwanted ships and weapons to those that causes less lag. CCP has tools for that , so just let it happen.
This. I have two alts that would like their missile launcher and caldari ship skills refunded. Make it happen CCP!
For a better, lag-free New eden... right?
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Cosmic Brownies
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Posted - 2010.10.29 19:44:00 -
[695]
Reduce it's base targeting range so that it's in line with other BC's (I think 55km - 60km with long range targeting V). That way there's at least a 1 module distinction between not so long range and long range on the drake. Drakes don't require much thought to fly, and even less considering that they don't have to change their fit, ever. Around 70km target and shoot range. Massive buffer + the best passive shield recharge of all BC's (standard fittings, not lol fits). In addition to all that they can easily shoot FoF's if they are jammed or sensor damped, and anything less than a heavy neut takes forever (relative to how fast fights are) to actually cap out the drake and turn off its hardeners to at least hurt the drake's EHP, and even if you do cap out a drake, you can't stop the shield recharge. The only effective way to kill a drake is to overwhelm it with DPS, which is nearly impossible for a ship of the same value to do. You pretty much need a hard hitting BS to melt the drake's shields.
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Yaay
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
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Posted - 2010.10.29 20:54:00 -
[696]
You guys and your "numbers" are mind blowingly bad. To whoever the idiot was that said a non SB drake took 8 seconds to lock another drake, wow, just wow. It's 3.3 seconds for the record, and about 7.5-8 on a dramiel. Battleships are much worse.
The drake can get massive tanks. Properly tanked with a vulture, it gets a lowest resist of 82.6, locks to 100, and gets 140+ ehp. The fact that it can shoot up to 84km ( not 75) also means it can hit any typical LR BC fleet. Anyone who says " but but guns can shoot further" has no fuking clue how fleets work. Nobody ever sits at the edge of their range, they typically sit well inside of it.
Everyone seems to think in large gang warfare every drake is going to have a point. Have you ever heard of Hics, or interdictors? When do drakes ever point anything in fleet combat? most of the time they're sitting at 60+ off the primares, so what kinda points are you guys smokin?
As for the counter to Supers. Armor hacs are the single best counter to any capital class ship. I've sat and fought for hours against them w/o a scratch. Can you break their RR? No, but they can't break your's either. And the fact that you have immunity to them while keeping them locked down provides plenty of time to wake up the heavy hitters. It doesn't make supers any less powerful having that counter, it's just the natural counter.
This forum is honestly worse than CSM b/c the amount of composed thoughtful responses is being blotted out by stupidity. This is a great example for why CCP devs really have hit a low point recognizing what is wrong with their own game. It should have never needed to go to the public. But now I gaurentee that when drakes do get changed, people will revolt pointing at all the post in this thread.
Be leaders again CCP, quit doing this ****.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.10.29 21:15:00 -
[697]
Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 29/10/2010 21:21:31 Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 29/10/2010 21:21:11
Originally by: lupusmoon ran a bunch of number last night. if we drop the 5% resists from the drake, it can still fit a good tank. so i say drop the resists(good idea to who said it). istead give it the same bonus setup as the kestral. (10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage and 5% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage per level) and drop a launcher slot to balance its new dps.
Except against straight EM damage which would have about a 41% resist meaning that fancy drake on page one would have about 50K HP. Against BC and up it will be absolutely smashed. Not to mention in small fleet or solo where you need to fit tackle you could end up with as little as 30% EM resists @ close range where the other BC's out DPS a drake, and again BS's will absolutely melt one. On top of that you want to add 5% more damage overall but take off 1 launcher. Again using that lovely eft warrior drake on page 1 DPS with 7 launchers is 462 (sans drones) with 6 it is 396 which is a 15% loss in DPS @ range (net 10% loss in DPS). With HAMs 578 with T2 ammo and 7 launchers 495 with T2 and 6 launchers again a 15% loss in DPS (net of 10% loss).
So at range the effective HP drops to about that of other BC's with a massive EM hole. DPS drops to 396 which is comparable to DPS of other BC's at range. Up close you have less tank than other BC's and much less DPS. Essentially turning the drake into a ****ty range only BC sniper.
The solution is not balanced at all.
The easiest way to make the drake comparable (all missile chuckers at range anyhow) is to change how launchers work. Make the RoF dependant on Distance/Missile velocity. If you are 70K out and have a 5000m/s missile it takes 12 seconds to fire a shot without and RoF bonus'. Adding in the bonus from things like BCU's and Launcher skills you can get down to around 8.6 seconds on HML's which is about a 2 second increase in time. But make the damage instant (thus reducing the LAG caused my missiles flooding the screen).
6.7/8.6 .77 a 23% increase in duration @ 70. Which is a 23% reduction DPS @ 70K 462*.77 = 355 DPS @ 70K This is comparable to other BC's @ range while keeping its tank intact for close range combat.
@ as range closes the launcher RoF picks up. Set some type of limit that does not allow the launchers to drop lower than say 6.5 seconds on HML's (aprox 30K) or 3.5 seconds on HAMs (approx 15K).
This will solve all the issues with missile lag, complaints of OP ranged missiles. While allowing the drake to keep its resists which it oh so badly needs when fighting at close range. It keeps the DPS relatively equal to what it is now, and does not change the close range drake. (especially when you consider your first volley on new targets is Volley/(Distance/Missile speed) which puts a range drakes first shot at a laughable 218DPS @70K)
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.10.29 23:06:00 -
[698]
Originally by: Yaay Armor hacs are the single best counter to any capital class ship. I've sat and fought for hours against them w/o a scratch. Can you break their RR? No, but they can't break your's either.
Ah, so you're saying nerf RR as well. Interesting.
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Cosmic Brownies
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Posted - 2010.10.29 23:23:00 -
[699]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider
Except against straight EM damage which would have about a 41% resist meaning that fancy drake on page one would have about 50K HP. Against BC and up it will be absolutely smashed.
Aren't BC's supposed to get smashed by larger ships?
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lupusmoon
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Posted - 2010.10.30 01:45:00 -
[700]
Edited by: lupusmoon on 30/10/2010 01:50:13 Edited by: lupusmoon on 30/10/2010 01:48:40 here is a g-doc spreadsheet i made to show all the BC's stats side by side(note: all #'s are base stats)
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ah9G4ZOI24BNdDFNNExiRDMxRmxQT0ZyMWRINjNicXc&hl=en
shield em 0% therm 20% kin 40% exp 50%
armor em 60% (minmitar) 50% (other) therm 45% (caldari) 35% (other) kin 35% (gallente) 25% (other) exp 20% (amarr) 10% (other)
hmm seems 'ALL' BC's have an em/therm shield hole and even a general kin/exp armor hole. so drake fits will need so fine tuning -
my changes would lower the EHP while still leaving it with the better tank of the BC's. It would lose abit of overall dps, but can dmg bonus to all dmg types. would still hold king of the range due to missile and really hate anything that got close. i call that sensible.
-nerfing the drake for lag is pointless -nerfing missile for lag is pointless -nerfing the drake cause t1/t2 cruisers cant kill it is pointless -nerfing the drake cause CR gunships cant kill a drake a range is pointless. -making missiles some sort of calc only delayed dmg thing just op's missiles
and honestly i still say the best way to effect missile/rocket is add a turn radious(agility) to them - small & light = high agility(~45 deg), big & heavy = low agility(~15 deg) meaning fast&agile ships should outrun big heavy missiles.
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it440
Caldari OZ industries and Technology
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Posted - 2010.10.30 07:51:00 -
[701]
lets just make all the ships in eve have identical stats for the different ship classes so there is no advantage or disadvantage for any race...being caldari has been an overall pvp disadvantage long enough. instant missle damage ftw! CCP supports this message. I think. |
Kiran
Minmatar Terra Hawks Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.10.30 08:37:00 -
[702]
The Drake does need to be brought back into balance with other battlecruisers of its class. All that needs to be done is the removal of the shield bonus.
At battlecruiser level 5 thats a increase of 25% to shield resists across the board. A removal of these bonuses would bring it more into line with others of its class.
No other battlecruiser has these bonuses applied other than shield boost on the Cyclone.
Or remove a mid slot instead. Simples.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.30 09:29:00 -
[703]
Originally by: Kiran No other battlecruiser has these bonuses applied other than shield boost on the Cyclone.
Um, I think the Ferox would like to have a word with you.
And the Prophecy and the Brutix have bonuses to armor (resistance/repair).
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.30 09:34:00 -
[704]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer
Originally by: Kiran No other battlecruiser has these bonuses applied other than shield boost on the Cyclone.
Um, I think the Ferox would like to have a word with you.
And the Prophecy and the Brutix have bonuses to armor (resistance/repair).
and the myrm (rep bonus). so it is actually just the harbinger and the hurricane, which dont get a tanking bonus.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.30 09:46:00 -
[705]
Originally by: darius mclever and the myrm (rep bonus). so it is actually just the harbinger and the hurricane, which dont get a tanking bonus.
True.
However, I believe resistance bonuses are generally out of line with damage bonuses. A +25% resistance bonus actually requires an opposing ship to do 33% more damage, while most "pure" damage bonuses only give 5% more damage per skill point. (Exception: ROF bonuses - +25% ROF actually increases DPS by 33%).
This could easily be fixed by lowering any shield/armor resistance bonuses of ships to 4% per skill point instead of 5%.
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it440
Caldari OZ industries and Technology
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Posted - 2010.10.30 10:37:00 -
[706]
Originally by: Kiran The Drake does need to be brought back into balance with other battlecruisers of its class. All that needs to be done is the removal of the shield bonus.
At battlecruiser level 5 thats a increase of 25% to shield resists across the board. A removal of these bonuses would bring it more into line with others of its class.
No other battlecruiser has these bonuses applied other than shield boost on the Cyclone.
Or remove a mid slot instead. Simples.
in other words your just saying that no caldari ship should be on the pvp battlefield... CCP supports this message. I think. |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.30 10:42:00 -
[707]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer
Originally by: darius mclever and the myrm (rep bonus). so it is actually just the harbinger and the hurricane, which dont get a tanking bonus.
True.
However, I believe resistance bonuses are generally out of line with damage bonuses. A +25% resistance bonus actually requires an opposing ship to do 33% more damage, while most "pure" damage bonuses only give 5% more damage per skill point. (Exception: ROF bonuses - +25% ROF actually increases DPS by 33%).
This could easily be fixed by lowering any shield/armor resistance bonuses of ships to 4% per skill point instead of 5%.
did you notice that most ships with active tanking bonus get 7.5% per level? summing up to 37.5% more tanked dmg? the only disadvantage is that resist bonuses also help RR.
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Shin Dari
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Posted - 2010.10.30 11:16:00 -
[708]
Originally by: Kiran The Drake does need to be brought back into balance with other battlecruisers of its class.
And then we get a DPS downgrade of the other BCs to bring them inline with the Drake. And after that nobody will use BCs anymore.
The Drake only seems powerful in special circumstances, nerfing it will help nobody. The solution would be for other races to have a BC that can perform well in the same/similar circumstances.
ps. @EFT-warriors complaining of noobs using OP Drakes. Why don't you guys use numbers derived from noob skill levels (level 3-4) when posting EHP and DPS? Because a T2 Drake using using all Level 5 skills isn't a realistic look at what a noob is using.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.30 11:53:00 -
[709]
Originally by: darius mclever did you notice that most ships with active tanking bonus get 7.5% per level? summing up to 37.5% more tanked dmg? the only disadvantage is that resist bonuses also help RR.
True, however, to take advantage of this bonus, the pilot actually needs to run a repairer/booster. It's not "always on" like a resistance bonus.
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.10.30 13:18:00 -
[710]
I think the problem here lies more in that missiles lack a counter. Defender missiles, simply put, are very broken. They just don't function. Other weapon counters can either be totally ignored (TD, Range disruption) or compensated for (ECM/Damp, switch to FoF)
Smartbombs are the only viable defence and thats only possible on BSes really.
Drakes are a very nice missile platform but its only really the combination of the long range of missiles and high tank that make them so nasty, the fact the resist bonus effectively gives them +25% buffer, passive recharge AND RR is the game breaker here. The EM hole arguement is clearly made by people who haven't heard of hardeners.
I would agree that one element of the drake could use a SLIGHT nerf, I think targeting range would be the way to go so that the long range drakes need to lose a mid to tracking computer or low to a tracking enhancer. This would still allow the drake to perform as well as currently as shorter ranges and in small gangs without allowing it to retain it's current massive tanked sniper status that no other ship can reasonably obtain. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.30 13:26:00 -
[711]
Originally by: Rhinanna Smartbombs are the only viable defence and thats only possible on BSes really.
oh yes? my hurricane fit can use 2 medium smarties just fine. and i bet under lag it could even perma run them, as the cap recharge will be broken. hooray for bugs. ;)
and there are more counters to them. range would be one of them. a burned out missile wouldnt do any damage to you. sadly in current laggy situations stuff like LR hacs dont work so well.
Quote: I would agree that one element of the drake could use a SLIGHT nerf, I think targeting range would be the way to go so that the long range drakes need to lose a mid to tracking computer or low to a tracking enhancer. This would still allow the drake to perform as well as currently as shorter ranges and in small gangs without allowing it to retain it's current massive tanked sniper status that no other ship can reasonably obtain.
first of all i think you meant to say sensor booster or backup array. not tracking computer/-enhancer.
anyway ... in current laggy situations drake slip over their own locking range often enough. also it can happen easily that their missiles burn out before hitting.
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AgeQuod agis
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Posted - 2010.10.30 14:42:00 -
[712]
If anyone had started a thread like this 1-1.5 years ago that person would have been mocked to no end. Nothing about the drake has changed, only peaples perspectives because of some success with the drake-blob in 0.0. And god forbid that people actually use caldari ships in fleets in 0.0, that would be blasphemy!
Gamebalance shouldnt be that every ship have the same(or is capable of having) stats as the other ships in their class. Imo it should be that all ships have their pros and cons, but that if you sum it up they are roughly equal, albeit all are best in one particualar area.
As far as lag is concerned, that¦s just a silly argument to nerf anything. In that case the better solution would be to fix the lag, either by some serverside tweaks or by modifying/removing the graphics for the weapon system (i.e. instant damage ) or the ship itself.
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.30 14:49:00 -
[713]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Exploited Engineer
Originally by: Kiran No other battlecruiser has these bonuses applied other than shield boost on the Cyclone.
Um, I think the Ferox would like to have a word with you.
And the Prophecy and the Brutix have bonuses to armor (resistance/repair).
and the myrm (rep bonus). so it is actually just the harbinger and the hurricane, which dont get a tanking bonus.
Yes, remove damage bonus from hurricane and harbinger and add tanking bonus, problem solved.
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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.10.30 16:00:00 -
[714]
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Originally by: darius mclever
Yes, remove damage bonus from hurricane and harbinger and add tanking bonus, problem solved.
Please be a Troll.
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Cosmic Brownies
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Posted - 2010.10.30 16:47:00 -
[715]
Originally by: Spugg Galdon
Please be a Troll.
He's a caldari pilot. He's just super sensitive to anything that might change the ship he's been sitting in for 2 years
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.30 17:56:00 -
[716]
Originally by: Cosmic Brownies
Originally by: Spugg Galdon
Please be a Troll.
He's a caldari pilot. He's just super sensitive to anything that might change the ship he's been sitting in for 2 years
You are such fail troller.
I've flown Drake more than 3 years now.
I bought my 1st drake for 93m isk (those have been couple days in game), i noticed that those were so overpower that it was worth to invest such amount of isk for a drake.
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Miss President
Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS
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Posted - 2010.10.30 19:27:00 -
[717]
Drakes need a nerf only to an extent to match other Battlecruiser size vessels.
1. Why do we see such a huge increase in drakes in fleets. A: Drake is a noob stick mobile, it's got a ridiculous tank, it shoots missiles any where you point it to, it can target paint and doesn't take much skill to fly. A: Drakes are cheap, fittings are cheap, even T1. 2. FCs hate to face lots of drakes, they take long time to kill for a low time to destory to isk killed ratio. WHy bring 1 hack when for the price you can bring 3 drakes. 3. If you ignore them they will hurt 4. No other battle cruiser in game requires so little skill, and effort to fit it and fly it correctly.
There are many uses for drakes, and not only a fleet fight, it's a good ship with good tank. Passive tank for PVE is great, and doesn't need a nerf. I think it will be difficult to reduce it's noobstick role in fleets and not ruin a PVE ship it is.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.30 19:37:00 -
[718]
Originally by: Miss President Drakes need a nerf only to an extent to match other Battlecruiser size vessels.
1. Why do we see such a huge increase in drakes in fleets. A: Drake is a noob stick mobile, it's got a ridiculous tank, it shoots missiles any where you point it to, it can target paint and doesn't take much skill to fly. A: Drakes are cheap, fittings are cheap, even T1.
wrong. 1. they become popular as counter to AHACS 2. they become more popular because it is one of the battlecruisers, that has a reasonable chance to survive in current laggy fleet fights.
Quote: 2. FCs hate to face lots of drakes, they take long time to kill for a low time to destory to isk killed ratio. WHy bring 1 hack when for the price you can bring 3 drakes. 3. If you ignore them they will hurt 4. No other battle cruiser in game requires so little skill, and effort to fit it and fly it correctly.
There are many uses for drakes, and not only a fleet fight, it's a good ship with good tank. Passive tank for PVE is great, and doesn't need a nerf. I think it will be difficult to reduce it's noobstick role in fleets and not ruin a PVE ship it is.
the amount of skills for flying a drake properly is the same amount you need for a fleet cane or fleet harbinger. stop lying to yourself.
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.10.30 19:41:00 -
[719]
Quote: oh yes? my hurricane fit can use 2 medium smarties just fine.
The range of large smart bombs is what allows them to block missiles effectively.
Quote: and there are more counters to them. range would be one of them. a burned out missile wouldnt do any damage to you. sadly in current laggy situations stuff like LR hacs dont work so well.
The whole point of this is that you can't fight drakes at range..... A long range HAC fleet will get owned by a drake fleet for this exact reason. Running away where you can't do any damage to the drakes isn't a counter.... its simply running away.
Quote: anyway ... in current laggy situations drake slip over their own locking range often enough. also it can happen easily that their missiles burn out before hitting
And generally in these sort of situation the drake is the only craft that can hit anything at all, so its still performing better than anything else. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
it440
Caldari OZ industries and Technology
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Posted - 2010.10.30 20:05:00 -
[720]
any caldari ship that can be effectively used in pvp needs NERF! CCP supports this message. I think. |
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.30 20:16:00 -
[721]
Originally by: Rhinanna
Quote: oh yes? my hurricane fit can use 2 medium smarties just fine.
The range of large smart bombs is what allows them to block missiles effectively.
Hint: http://killboard.the-initiative.com/index.php?a=kill_detail&kll_id=80144
they are using medium smarties too.
Quote:
Quote: and there are more counters to them. range would be one of them. a burned out missile wouldnt do any damage to you. sadly in current laggy situations stuff like LR hacs dont work so well.
The whole point of this is that you can't fight drakes at range..... A long range HAC fleet will get owned by a drake fleet for this exact reason. Running away where you can't do any damage to the drakes isn't a counter.... its simply running away.
a smart LR hac gang will stay at 90km from the drakes. show me what drakes will hit at that range. and they are even faster the drakes and can dictate range. =)
Quote:
Quote: anyway ... in current laggy situations drake slip over their own locking range often enough. also it can happen easily that their missiles burn out before hitting
And generally in these sort of situation the drake is the only craft that can hit anything at all, so its still performing better than anything else.
sure most BC fleets will have that problem. but LR BS fleets e.g. wont.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.30 21:00:00 -
[722]
Edited by: Exploited Engineer on 30/10/2010 21:02:02
Originally by: Rhinanna The whole point of this is that you can't fight drakes at range.....
Drakes get no range bonuses for their missiles. Anything that can fire HMs/HMLs and gets some sort of range bonus (starting with Caracals) can out-range a Drake. Anything that fires cruise missiles can, too. Did I mention that buffer- or passive-tanked Drakes have huge signatures?
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Franziskaner Dunkel
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Posted - 2010.10.30 21:35:00 -
[723]
Originally by: Bad Messenger i noticed that those were so overpower that it was worth to invest such amount of isk for a drake.
So you admit they're overpowered. Checkmate
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Treslor
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Posted - 2010.10.31 00:20:00 -
[724]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer Heck. If you're expecting a Drake gang, bring a Caracal gang.
Yes, for every 150k EHP 400 DPs bc they bring, you can counter it in a 33K EHP 200 dps cruiser! And if you just sit at 100-120km away, you definitely won't get lolbubbled by an on-grid prober and then watch the drakes either warp in or mwd 20-40km closer to begin your ass-kicking
What a fantastic idea, obviously it worked out great for you and isn't an armchair theory you just made up*
*May contain sarcasm
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.10.31 01:01:00 -
[725]
Quote: Drakes get no range bonuses for their missiles. Anything that can fire HMs/HMLs and gets some sort of range bonus (starting with Caracals) can out-range a Drake.
Except they can't lock at their max range. Drakes can without having to use a low or mid boosting their lock range. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Rellana
DAB Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.10.31 02:26:00 -
[726]
Personally I don't see what all the whining about. If you nerf drakes you take away just about the only good ship Caldari have left for PVP,as CCP has already nerfed all our other good ships after the cruise,ecm and torp nerf/s to the point where no-one flies them anymore. The drake can be countered easily as INIT showed with there firewall setup,and PL countered them with Pulse apoc's as well. If the other races battlecruisers are so bad,I'd say they need to be rebalanced so they have something comparable to the drake,sure fix the Missile lag issue,but leave the drake alone please CCP..
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lupusmoon
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Posted - 2010.10.31 04:15:00 -
[727]
ived noticed alot of ppl comparing BC's(drake) to HAC's.
while it might be fun for the numbers a HAC is a class below a BC and should not have the same dps/tank etc of a BC.
otherwise i say all ship are underpowered since none can go 1v1 with Supercaps.
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Keras Authion
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Posted - 2010.10.31 06:07:00 -
[728]
Originally by: Treslor
Originally by: Exploited Engineer Heck. If you're expecting a Drake gang, bring a Caracal gang.
Yes, for every 150k EHP 400 DPs bc they bring, you can counter it in a 33K EHP 200 dps cruiser! And if you just sit at 100-120km away, you definitely won't get lolbubbled by an on-grid prober and then watch the drakes either warp in or mwd 20-40km closer to begin your ass-kicking
What a fantastic idea, obviously it worked out great for you and isn't an armchair theory you just made up*
*May contain sarcasm
So, why aren't you lolbubbling the drakes and melting them with more powerful short-range weapons? Seems like a logical choice. Or maybe lolbubble the drakes too and your faster cruisers can still maintain their range.
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VC General
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Posted - 2010.10.31 08:04:00 -
[729]
Edited by: VC General on 31/10/2010 08:09:38 I'm getting tired of this debate, so I am going to share this revolutionary strategy to use against these types of fleets.....FOR FREE!!! There are these cheap ships no one flies anymore called S-C-O-R-P-I-O-N-S. If your enemy is bringing 200 of the exact same **** fit 75KM range BC to every fight, all you need is about 20 Scorpion pilots sitting at 100km with a rack of Caldari ECM, and you automatically win.
Needless to say, since everyone thinks Scorpions suck, that means I am the only person with an active account that can actually fly one. It will take you guys about a month to train for it, and then another week or so till the Drake blobs are no longer the FotM. At that point, you can go back to pwning everything with your Zealots. All you whiners are welcome in advance.
Oh on a side note, for Scourge Fury to do full damage to a cruiser-sized target, it requires a web and about 4 TP's active on the target. It can't be done purely with TP'ing. Even if you have 50 Drakes painting the same guy, it loses about 30% of it's max damage. The OP's **** fit vs say a Zealot, would do about 200-300 DPS with perfect skills and both painters running.
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Arzamor
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.31 08:23:00 -
[730]
Originally by: Valarre How about instead of nerfing drakes we make the other battlecruisers better. For example the worthless bruitx, and ferox. Although they are still technically the tier 1 bc's. I don't know the myrmiddon is awesome, the hurricane is awesome, and so is the harbinger. Actually tbh you are full of crap, all the tier 2 bc's are pretty damned good. Drakes don't need a nerf.
T2 Blaster Brutix with T2 ammo and a couple magstabs in low? Melt-your-face Damage tank is the best kind.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.31 08:45:00 -
[731]
Originally by: Keras Authion So, why aren't you lolbubbling the drakes and melting them with more powerful short-range weapons?
Or MWD away yourself when the Drakes give chase? Last I heard lolbubbles don't affect MWDs, and in a race between a Caracal and a Drake, my money's on the Caracal.
Also, if the Drakes chase you, their effective range drops and your effective range (if using missiles) increases.
Additionally, keep the difference in cost in mind. For one fitted Drake, you can get, what, three or four fitted Caracals?
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Treslor
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Posted - 2010.10.31 09:52:00 -
[732]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer Or MWD away yourself when the Drakes give chase? Last I heard lolbubbles don't affect MWDs, and in a race between a Caracal and a Drake, my money's on the Caracal.
Those 33k EHP caracals with 220 DPS I was telling you about become 24k EHP 179 DPS caracals if you try to fit a mwd on there. They, unlike the drake, pay for their long range advantage.
Quote: Additionally, keep the difference in cost in mind. For one fitted Drake, you can get, what, three or four fitted Caracals?
Keep the difference in pilots in mind. For three or four players flying caracals, you could've had three or four players flying drakes instead. If the enemy has 300 drakes, you'd need 900-1200 caracals to beat them if we only look at isk cost. On the other hand, if you put all those caracal pilots into drakes instead, you'd have 900-1200 drakes for relatively tiny cost difference and smash the enemy anyway. So why the hell would you be flying caracals? Assuming you could even convince 900-1200 players to fly them in the first place
No, not really a realistic counter
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it440
Caldari OZ industries and Technology
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Posted - 2010.10.31 10:40:00 -
[733]
leave drakes as is and use them to kill the motherships that are invincible. that should make everyone happy right? CCP supports this message. I think. |
Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.31 10:47:00 -
[734]
Huh, what kind of missiles were fired in LXQ yesterday? *Sarcasm*
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.31 11:16:00 -
[735]
Originally by: VC General Edited by: VC General on 31/10/2010 08:09:38 I'm getting tired of this debate, so I am going to share this revolutionary strategy to use against these types of fleets.....FOR FREE!!! There are these cheap ships no one flies anymore called S-C-O-R-P-I-O-N-S. If your enemy is bringing 200 of the exact same **** fit 75KM range BC to every fight, all you need is about 20 Scorpion pilots sitting at 100km with a rack of Caldari ECM, and you automatically win.
Needless to say, since everyone thinks Scorpions suck, that means I am the only person with an active account that can actually fly one. It will take you guys about a month to train for it, and then another week or so till the Drake blobs are no longer the FotM. At that point, you can go back to pwning everything with your Zealots. All you whiners are welcome in advance.
Oh on a side note, for Scourge Fury to do full damage to a cruiser-sized target, it requires a web and about 4 TP's active on the target. It can't be done purely with TP'ing. Even if you have 50 Drakes painting the same guy, it loses about 30% of it's max damage. The OP's **** fit vs say a Zealot, would do about 200-300 DPS with perfect skills and both painters running.
You try coordinating 20 scorps against 100 targets lol. And under your logic, scorps counter everything.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.31 11:30:00 -
[736]
Originally by: Aerilis You try coordinating 20 scorps against 100 targets lol. And under your logic, scorps counter everything.
FOF missiles, Smartbombs, ...
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.31 17:48:00 -
[737]
Originally by: Aerilis You try coordinating 20 scorps against 100 targets lol. And under your logic, scorps counter everything.
If you manage to do that you have a skilled group of people doing some stuff, it does not really matter what those skilled 20 people are flying they can still engage larger numbers successfully.
Without trying or without training things you are just a whiny loser who have to ask nerf for a drake.
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.10.31 19:52:00 -
[738]
If you think drakes need a nerf take a look at this video:
firewall
As you can see even a small fleet can rip through this drake wall with innovative fittings.
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Cosmic Brownies
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Posted - 2010.10.31 21:02:00 -
[739]
Originally by: cyndrogen If you think drakes need a nerf take a look at this video:
firewall
As you can see even a small fleet can rip through this drake wall with innovative fittings.
Oh you mean a fleet of BS's? Try the firewall with arty canes and then we'll talk.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.31 21:45:00 -
[740]
Originally by: Cosmic Brownies
Originally by: cyndrogen If you think drakes need a nerf take a look at this video:
firewall
As you can see even a small fleet can rip through this drake wall with innovative fittings.
Oh you mean a fleet of BS's? Try the firewall with arty canes and then we'll talk.
you mean like this?;)
Quote:
[Hurricane, firewall] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M Medium 'Vehemence' I Shockwave Charge Medium 'Vehemence' I Shockwave Charge
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
needs a few fitting implants but well. armor hacs with smart bombs are way more interesting. though I had no time to work on fittings for those yet.
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Cosmic Brownies
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Posted - 2010.10.31 22:41:00 -
[741]
Originally by: darius mclever
you mean like this?;)
Inferior range and the other half of the firewall was using sensor damps to shut out drakes. Oh and medium smartbombs suck.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.31 22:59:00 -
[742]
Originally by: Cosmic Brownies
Originally by: darius mclever
you mean like this?;)
Inferior range and the other half of the firewall was using sensor damps to shut out drakes. Oh and medium smartbombs suck.
they were also using armor tanks.... but i leave that to your own creativity. regarding the medium smart bombs ... I would suggest you look at the init killboard what they are using. and maybe also check how much dmg a medium smart does and how many HP HML have.
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DeadNite
Caldari The Inferno Legions SCUM.
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Posted - 2010.11.01 04:31:00 -
[743]
I say while we are "tuning" the Drake, I say we tune every other ship class in the game to make Caldari ships more competitive.
There is nothing balanced about fleet warfare. The bigger blob wins as long as they are not being stupid. Can't compete at 75KM? How about stop engaging at a range where you can't compete. Quit being a bunch of pussies and warp to 0 so your ships can do what they were made to do. Drakes can't compete with other ships inside 20KM.
Where is your ECW? Jammers? Webers? Neuts?
What, you think because there are 500 people on the battlefield the only tactics are calling out primary? You guys crack me up with the whining every time the FOTM changes.
Since all that matters is EHP, range, and DPS I propose to "Tune" Hurricanes next because of this capability up close that the Drake does not have.
[Hurricane, OP Close PvP Hurricane] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II
425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Hobgoblin II x5
Assuming all Vs with no implants and someone who didn't just roll out of the Academy leading:
EHP: 104K+ (109k+ on fire) DPS: 551(618 on fire) close up - Hail M DPS: 454 (507 on fire) at about 20KM - Barrage M
Lets trade an Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II for another Gyrostabilizer II.
EHP: 95+K+ (100k+ on fire) DPS: 638(718 on fire) up close - Hail M DPS: 522 (586 on fire) within 21KM - Barrage M
Yep. You can drop another EANM if you want to crank it up to 700+ (800 on fire), but then you actually come just under the EHP of a Drake.
So adding implants and drugs into the equation and you realize that this was not a fair comparison to begin with.
TL:DR - Do more than call primary. Weakness in attitude becomes weakness of character. -AE |
cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.11.01 04:36:00 -
[744]
problem with damps is if you are outnumbered you cant really target and damp all the ships. but with smartbpmbs you can pretty much block the majority of incoming DPS and render those missiles useless, while the rest of your fleet inside the firewall can be fitted for pure DPS> no smartbombs needed.
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Bobbechk
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.11.01 06:53:00 -
[745]
Originally by: DeadNite
EHP: 95+K+ (100k+ on fire) DPS: 638(718 on fire) up close - Hail M DPS: 522 (586 on fire) within 21KM - Barrage M
It would seem the realistic DPS output you would get when using HAIL M is closers to 5 then 638 shooting anything other then a structure
also your calculation for Barrage M at 20km is way off and really only does 300 DPS (tho really only 200 subtracting drone damage) ________
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.01 07:18:00 -
[746]
Originally by: Cosmic Brownies
Originally by: cyndrogen If you think drakes need a nerf take a look at this video:
firewall
As you can see even a small fleet can rip through this drake wall with innovative fittings.
Oh you mean a fleet of BS's? Try the firewall with arty canes and then we'll talk.
This pretty much sums up the arguments of the anti drake crowd. They say the drake should in every possible situation be outclassed by other BCs, and never be the best option.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.01 16:08:00 -
[747]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Cosmic Brownies
Originally by: cyndrogen If you think drakes need a nerf take a look at this video:
firewall
As you can see even a small fleet can rip through this drake wall with innovative fittings.
Oh you mean a fleet of BS's? Try the firewall with arty canes and then we'll talk.
This pretty much sums up the arguments of the anti drake crowd. They say the drake should in every possible situation be outclassed by other BCs, and never be the best option.
Quoted for honesty, truth, and facts. The drake detractors are SERIOUSLY butthurt that the drake has a situational "best in class" role in fleets. Not merely because it's caldari, but also because it's a missile launcher platform (a tiny minority of ship population). They see in the drake something they completely FAILED to skill for ahead of time and now they are RAAGEEing to the heavens for it to stop.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:33:00 -
[748]
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Cosmic Brownies
Originally by: cyndrogen If you think drakes need a nerf take a look at this video:
firewall
As you can see even a small fleet can rip through this drake wall with innovative fittings.
Oh you mean a fleet of BS's? Try the firewall with arty canes and then we'll talk.
This pretty much sums up the arguments of the anti drake crowd. They say the drake should in every possible situation be outclassed by other BCs, and never be the best option.
Quoted for honesty, truth, and facts. The drake detractors are SERIOUSLY butthurt that the drake has a situational "best in class" role in fleets. Not merely because it's caldari, but also because it's a missile launcher platform (a tiny minority of ship population). They see in the drake something they completely FAILED to skill for ahead of time and now they are RAAGEEing to the heavens for it to stop.
Who would have thought? A missile BC that actually works in a gang? I have known for some time that the Drake has some good roles, but it has taken the rest of EVE about two years to do the same (about the time I joined EVE Drakes were regarded as noob stuff because people consistently fail fitted it). And now that they suddenly are faced with well fitted Drakes, their cookie cutter setups might need some tweaking, so they rage.
Its actually quite pathetic. Besides, Caldari is supposed to have good fleet ships, and what is wrong with Caldari having the best fleet BC? Some BC gotta be the best at that role after all, and tbh Caldari don't have many "the best" ships to speak off.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
it440
Caldari OZ industries and Technology
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:48:00 -
[749]
Edited by: it440 on 01/11/2010 19:51:07
really good points here on the argument.
quote Furb Killer: "This pretty much sums up the arguments of the anti drake crowd. They say the drake should in every possible situation be outclassed by other BCs, and never be the best option."
quote Leksi Bar'zuk: " They see in the drake something they completely FAILED to skill for ahead of time and now they are RAAGEEing to the heavens for it to stop."
quote Sidus Isaacs: "what is wrong with Caldari having the best fleet BC? Some BC gotta be the best at that role after all, and tbh Caldari don't have many "the best" ships to speak off."
CCP supports this message. I think. |
OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.11.01 23:49:00 -
[750]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Its actually quite pathetic. Besides, Caldari is supposed to have good fleet ships, and what is wrong with Caldari having the best fleet BC? Some BC gotta be the best at that role after all, and tbh Caldari don't have many "the best" ships to speak off.
Their horror is understandable... they are not used to seeing Caldari have the best or anything. THEY get the best, Caldari gets less. And once they have successfully castrated the Drake they will go back to their usual role of assuring new Caldari pilots that their ships are just fine.
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.11.01 23:57:00 -
[751]
I hardly think that a very minor nerf to the drake's locking range would cause the level of panic you are suggesting. Drake would still be the premium long range vessel and short range fits would be affected, it just wouldn't be able to fit 100k EHP and do 300+ dps at 70+km, would be more like 80k EHP (probably more) which is still twice as much as almost any other BC trying to do that much dps at that range. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
DeadNite
Caldari The Inferno Legions SCUM.
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Posted - 2010.11.02 00:12:00 -
[752]
Originally by: Bobbechk
Originally by: DeadNite
EHP: 95+K+ (100k+ on fire) DPS: 638(718 on fire) up close - Hail M DPS: 522 (586 on fire) within 21KM - Barrage M
It would seem the realistic DPS output you would get when using HAIL M is closers to 5 then 638 shooting anything other then a structure
also your calculation for Barrage M at 20km is way off and really only does 300 DPS (tho really only 200 subtracting drone damage)
Of course, these are EFT values. The same will be seen with any of the weapon systems. That is part of the point here. Paper values are being considered because people are butthurt currently. I imagine everyone is flying around with all relevant Lv.5s too. </sarcasm&frustration> Weakness in attitude becomes weakness of character. -AE |
DeadNite
Caldari The Inferno Legions SCUM.
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Posted - 2010.11.02 00:28:00 -
[753]
Originally by: Rhinanna I hardly think that a very minor nerf to the drake's locking range would cause the level of panic you are suggesting. Drake would still be the premium long range vessel and short range fits would be affected, it just wouldn't be able to fit 100k EHP and do 300+ dps at 70+km, would be more like 80k EHP (probably more) which is still twice as much as almost any other BC trying to do that much dps at that range.
So, remind me why you are engaging at a range you cannot compete again? Should we nerf the damage that every other factions BCs should do up close because drakes cannot compete there? Or is it "Okay" that the Drake gets beat up close by just about every other BC out there?
I blame your tactics. There is more to PvP then calling primaries. You can shut a 200 drake blob down with 100 jamming ships. They are making it easy for you, you don't even have to worry about not having the right type of jammers. Lock them all down and pick them off.
Think back to the ally tournament when PL locked the other side completely down. Now, increase the scale of that and consider the possibilities. Your cookie cutter fleet fit drake that was posted above can do nothing and has no way to retaliate then.
When your enemies tactics evolve to counter yours, you have to do the same.
Adapt, or stagnate and die. Weakness in attitude becomes weakness of character. -AE |
Cosmic Brownies
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Posted - 2010.11.02 02:39:00 -
[754]
Originally by: DeadNite
Adapt, or stagnate and die.
Thats what I said before the speed nerf
Boost HAMs, nerf HMs In a way that there's actually some thought/sacrifice into a drake fit. Currently there's about 1 fit for the drake with little variation, maybe a PDU vs. a BCU or a specific hardener vs. an invul.
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Blnukem 192
Amarr Creed.
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Posted - 2010.11.02 02:53:00 -
[755]
Yes drakes need a nerf. -2 med slots + -50% shield regen please.
Originally by: CCP Navigator This is really not worthy of a thread.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.02 15:01:00 -
[756]
Originally by: Rhinanna I hardly think that a very minor nerf to the drake's locking range would cause the level of panic you are suggesting. Drake would still be the premium long range vessel and short range fits would be affected, it just wouldn't be able to fit 100k EHP and do 300+ dps at 70+km, would be more like 80k EHP (probably more) which is still twice as much as almost any other BC trying to do that much dps at that range.
I think its bad form to change the symptoms rather then the underlying problem. Why are people using drake gangs (if you could even call it a "problem" to begin with)? Well, its different then the armor hac/BS blobs that has been used since forever in 0.0.
And where are the complaints about the Zealot only gans? The archon only gangs? The more usefulness of Amror RR since it so horribly easy to fit?
Drakes in a way actually counters this, and is a nice alternative to the horribly boring mono armor RR gangs. Perhaps if the Ferox was actually a useful ship, if the Brutix was not a joke and the Prophecy not useless would we have more diversity in the BC area.
I actually like that a missile ship is being used in fleet warefare, thats never really been done seriously before, wiht good reason due to turret instant damage that meshes poorly with missiles. A missile only gang have had potential since day one however, but non really used it. (Much like a Raven gang can actually be good inside a 250km radius, with some dencet fits for it, but it blends poorly with turret ships)
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.11.02 15:12:00 -
[757]
Originally by: Rhinanna I hardly think that a very minor nerf to the drake's locking range would cause the level of panic you are suggesting. Drake would still be the premium long range vessel...etc
Correct. A minor change would have little impact on either the ship or the number of players using it. It would be nothing more than a concession to "imbalance" that does not exist. And in any case, it misses the point. Let me state it clearly:
CCP does not want people using the Drake (or other missile boats) in fleet PvP.
No minor change is likely to accomplish this.
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Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.11.02 15:26:00 -
[758]
CCP has already stated that the Drake has seen a significant increase in use and we can see this ourselves on the major killboards. Below are the stats from the eve kill site which show the Drake dominating all other ships. These numbers put the Falcon and Vaga to shame during their glory days.
Rank / Kills 1 Drake 283608 2 Hurricane 91237 3 Megathron 54835 4 Zealot 50624 5 Tempest 45606
What CCP ultimately wants to see a variety of ships being used in Eve, so when they see stuff like this they have a 100% record of taking action. So the focus should be on what is fair. There are two main factors that seperate the drake with all other ships. Its high shield resists and a long range. When non drakes join a drake gang, those 'other' ships are always primary as they can't be repped as well by the Scimis and so are easier to kill.
One fix is to provide other high shield resist ships with long range. Then people will jump in those alternatives for drake gangs. This would definitely drop drake usage as I personally hate boarding a drake, but I do it anyways as it is so damn good.
Another fix is to nerf either the resist bonus or long range of the drake. Either nerf would automatically make other ships viable to be in the drake gang. This would also cause the type of emo we saw with the great speed nerf.
Another option is create an effective counter to a drake gang. As there are so many drake gangs out there, you would see this 'counter' become popular quickly. I have yet to figure out what this counter would be but that is why pay the big buck to CCP, so they can figure it out.
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Dummy Jumper
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Posted - 2010.11.02 15:51:00 -
[759]
Originally by: Solid Star There are two main factors that seperate the drake with all other ships. [/quote
There are three actually. You forgot drake fitting, it is very generous.
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Jekyl Eraser
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Posted - 2010.11.02 16:13:00 -
[760]
If drake/missile lag is an issue you could decrease missile(or HML only) ROF and increase dmg.
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Keras Authion
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Posted - 2010.11.02 16:55:00 -
[761]
Originally by: Solid Star CCP has already stated that the Drake has seen a significant increase in use and we can see this ourselves on the major killboards. Below are the stats from the eve kill site which show the Drake dominating all other ships. These numbers put the Falcon and Vaga to shame during their glory days.
Maybe it's because there's no good alternatives for caldari. On the same top 10 (there's a longer list earlier in this thread) there's only 2 caldari ships, the other being manticore. So I agree, buff the other caldari ships so we can get more variety on field or at least fix the damn hybrids. Also the sum of the racial ships is about the same except for the gallente. Let's look at the other options available.
T1 frigates are suicide for fleet battles, bad for solo/low skill. Aside from the manticore, T2 frigates suffer from hybrids, shield/tackle/ewar fitting problems and delayed damage with missiles. Caracal is good vs frigates and drones, near-decent with HML sniping. Moa suffers from the poorness of the hybids. Blackbird I have no idea, probably because of the tank/ecm problem. Ferox has low powergrid, also hybrids. Scorpion might be workable sitting 150km away jamming with little tank, but it's rarely used. Raven does good dps up close but has weak-ish tank, at long range coordinating the volleys becomes difficult. Rokh can snipe for low damage with hybrids.
The preferred weapon in PvP is still turret types. You can get a salvo or 2 worth of damage before the missiles hit. Caldari secondary weapon is blasters, which are a bit borked at the moment. Rails do low damage and can't track anything nearby, blasters have trouble tracking on their optimal even if they do lots of damage. And they use cap. As for the "but missiles always hit, turrets are affected by transversal!", the missiles are affected by speed in any direction, not just if moving sideways. The only thing why missiles are now in favor is because they work reliably in laggy conditions.
Shield vs armour is balanced by the fact that armour makes you slower and makes you choose between dps and tank, shields increase sig making you easier to hit by anything, including bigger ships that couldn't hit you nearly as well without your tank, and shield forces you to choose between ewar and tank. If you look at the other BCs, you'll also notice that quite many has a defensive bonus whether it is a active tank of the preferred type or a resist so drake is not alone with one. Also since 2 races use armour and 1 can use armour effectively, it's the preferred type in fleets. Shields do not work well in these. So shield users fly in shield fleets. If you want other ships to be able to fly in shield fleets, it should be possible to fly shield ships in armour fleets too. Should we nerf armour to make it possible to join them in shield ships? (note: exaggerated example) Nerfing remote reps and active armour tanks to about 2x passive shield recharge should do the trick. I bet we'd see more passive shield in armour gangs after that . Obviously that's not a solution at all.
As for the drake: it does reliable 400-something dps at long range and has a great tank, but can't hold its targets. At close range it loses some tank (though it's still good) and does 600-something damage. It's better than what other ships can put out at long range and less than others at close range (HAMs take severe penalties on small and/or fast targets). Also the damage is delayed, so it needs the tank to survive long enough. Remember that increasing the tank does increase the damage it takes in the form of better hits, something that eft doesn't tell. Finally the drake has remained the same for a long time. It hasn't changed but suddendly it's OP. Missiles didn't either. In fact in ships and modules people tell you that caldari and missiles can't be used for PvP. Yet Drake is OP despite being caldari and using missiles that are bad at pvp. Does not compute.
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Arbiter Reformed
Minmatar 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.11.02 20:33:00 -
[762]
i vote drop resist bonus for a rof bonus amiright!
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Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.11.02 20:48:00 -
[763]
Originally by: Keras Authion
Originally by: Solid Star CCP has already stated that the Drake has seen a significant increase in use and we can see this ourselves on the major killboards. Below are the stats from the eve kill site which show the Drake dominating all other ships. These numbers put the Falcon and Vaga to shame during their glory days.
Maybe it's because there's no good alternatives for caldari. On the same top 10 (there's a longer list earlier in this thread) there's only 2 caldari ships, the other being manticore. So I agree, buff the other caldari ships so we can get more variety on field or at least fix the damn hybrids. Also the sum of the racial ships is about the same except for the gallente. Let's look at the other options available.
I do agree that any solution that wants to limit emo would need to be more comprehensive then just hitting the drake with a nerf bat. And anyone that believes there is nothing wrong needs their head examined. If CCP doubled the DPS and range of a tank they would still say the Drake is balanced.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.03 13:26:00 -
[764]
Originally by: Arbiter Reformed i vote drop resist bonus for a rof bonus amiright!
I would actually support that. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.11.03 15:40:00 -
[765]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Arbiter Reformed i vote drop resist bonus for a rof bonus amiright!
I would actually support that.
Heck, I'd exchange the resistance and kinetic missile damage bonus for a +25% ROF bonus at BC 5.
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Lord NathanZachary
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Posted - 2010.11.03 15:43:00 -
[766]
anyone that thinks drakes are OP in PVP probably should have their brain examined. Just because alot of fleets are now (with no really update to change anything) figuring ways to use drakes efficiently doesn't make them overpowered. I mean look at AT8... most of the fleets that fielded drakes lost, and alot of them were just getting made fun of for fielding slow dieing ships.
and just because EFT says it gets ___ dps... doesnt mean it does. Missile DPS is greatly diminished by sig radius and velocity calculations.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.11.03 17:58:00 -
[767]
Originally by: Solid Star And anyone that believes there is nothing wrong needs their head examined. If CCP doubled the DPS and range of a tank they would still say the Drake is balanced.
If Drakes aren't overpowered solo and in small gang, but are overpowered in laggy blob with logistics support, then the problem isn't the Drake, it's the laggy blob or the logistics support.
Not much more to it than that, really. |
Nadia Chow
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Posted - 2010.11.03 18:54:00 -
[768]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Solid Star And anyone that believes there is nothing wrong needs their head examined. If CCP doubled the DPS and range of a tank they would still say the Drake is balanced.
If Drakes aren't overpowered solo and in small gang, but are overpowered in laggy blob with logistics support, then the problem isn't the Drake, it's the laggy blob or the logistics support.
Not much more to it than that, really.
So simple, and so true.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.11.03 19:42:00 -
[769]
Originally by: Nadia Chow
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Solid Star And anyone that believes there is nothing wrong needs their head examined. If CCP doubled the DPS and range of a tank they would still say the Drake is balanced.
If Drakes aren't overpowered solo and in small gang, but are overpowered in laggy blob with logistics support, then the problem isn't the Drake, it's the laggy blob or the logistics support.
Not much more to it than that, really.
So simple, and so true.
Exactly. There's not much you can't make awesome with 30 logistics ships backing you up. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.11.04 05:51:00 -
[770]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Solid Star And anyone that believes there is nothing wrong needs their head examined. If CCP doubled the DPS and range of a tank they would still say the Drake is balanced.
If Drakes aren't overpowered solo and in small gang, but are overpowered in laggy blob with logistics support, then the problem isn't the Drake, it's the laggy blob or the logistics support.
Not much more to it than that, really.
That is a logical fallacy. A being true does not make B false. By your logic, if we were to replace the drakes with the exact number of another ship type (of similar cost) they would do equally as well. We already know that is not true because the drakes range and resist bonus. For another BC to be equal (tank wise) you would need 25% more logistics in gang repping you. If you have ever engaged a drake gang you should know that most FCs target the Hurricanes and other non Drakes first. They do this because they know the logistics can't rep a Cane as well as it has no resist bonus.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.11.04 08:52:00 -
[771]
Originally by: Solid Star
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Solid Star And anyone that believes there is nothing wrong needs their head examined. If CCP doubled the DPS and range of a tank they would still say the Drake is balanced.
If Drakes aren't overpowered solo and in small gang, but are overpowered in laggy blob with logistics support, then the problem isn't the Drake, it's the laggy blob or the logistics support.
Not much more to it than that, really.
That is a logical fallacy. A being true does not make B false. By your logic, if we were to replace the drakes with the exact number of another ship type (of similar cost) they would do equally as well. We already know that is not true because the drakes range and resist bonus. For another BC to be equal (tank wise) you would need 25% more logistics in gang repping you. If you have ever engaged a drake gang you should know that most FCs target the Hurricanes and other non Drakes first. They do this because they know the logistics can't rep a Cane as well as it has no resist bonus.
Thanks for that, Captain Obvious. The point is that nothing about the Drake is overpowered solo or in small gang, and therefore any changes that you propose should not affect its ability there. That pretty much limits to you, well, nothing. And clearly indicates that the blob Drake is really a symptom of a larger problem.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.04 11:11:00 -
[772]
The Drake in itself is not the problem, passive shield tank is overpowered and therefore a ship with passive shield bonuses like the Drake moves up in the food chain. The fact that the ship has sufficient damage to the already battleship-like tank at a low price explains why the ship is seeing a lot of use.
The HP buffer of passive shields are not the problem but the regeneration rate on top is.
Personally I would recommend to give any active armor repairer and shield booster a strong boost. Remote shield transfer and armor repair could stay the same, but a passive shield should stop regenerating or at least regenerate much slower while taking damage.
Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.11.04 11:39:00 -
[773]
This topic is still going. Jeez I wish the drake was OP before I started training to Minnie BC/BS, I mean **** Id have like 3 months of extra training to spread around. But less than 8 months ago I was the loldrake pilot who had no place in PVP. Now you are saying I am a hot commodity damn......
Also if you "fix" the drake please don't **** with its solo potential.
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Flapkonijn
BLACK LIGHTNING MINING CREW
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Posted - 2010.11.04 12:14:00 -
[774]
I have read most of the pages.
And even though i do fly the drake a lot (because it is overpowered why not use it ) i agree it should be nerfed and brought inline a bit more with other races.
I am not gonna name the reasons as they have been mentioned to death on these pages.
Just wanted to put my support in for the nerf
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.11.04 12:20:00 -
[775]
Originally by: DeadNite So, remind me why you are engaging at a range you cannot compete again? Should we nerf the damage that every other factions BCs should do up close because drakes cannot compete there? Or is it "Okay" that the Drake gets beat up close by just about every other BC out there?
You obviously have never fought a HAM Drake gang in your entire life.
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Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.11.04 13:27:00 -
[776]
Originally by: Gypsio III If the reason that Drakes are preferred over Hurricanes is because of the Drake's resists being better for logistics, then it's quite obvious that the logistics is the problem, not the Drake.
Complete remove the logistics from game and the Hurricane will still be primaried over the Drake. Also, it will take 25% more DPS (or time) to bring down a fleet of Drakes over a fleet of Hurricanes (all other things being equal). More time depend on gang size as shield recharge plays a bigger part.
The drake is not any better in a mixed gang as the actual dps that eventually hits the target is not the best, it not a great tackler, and does not do instant alpha dmg. Couple that with the huge tank and you have a ship where the FC waits till the end to kill it. The problem comes when it is an all drake gang as you can't save it for last. You now need to break the tank of every single drake. So the problem is not the solo drake, the problem is the blob of drakes. We move that blob and we fix the problem.
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Elendra Ragnek
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Posted - 2010.11.04 13:33:00 -
[777]
Got attacked by a Drake gang last night, think it was about two to one odds against us with them at the 160 odd mark.
They jumped in on us, lost a pile of ships, could not get on top of us or in range and their logistics were almost never catching the primaries before we popped them. I think they jumped back out after about 30 losses v none for us.
Give them a few more weeks of doing that and a few more weeks of other people working out how to combat them properly and I bet we won't be seeing them as the primary fleet ship in the not too distant future...
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Frug
Omega Wing
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Posted - 2010.11.04 13:50:00 -
[778]
Originally by: Elendra Ragnek Got attacked by a Drake gang last night, think it was about two to one odds against us with them at the 160 odd mark.
They jumped in on us, lost a pile of ships, could not get on top of us or in range and their logistics were almost never catching the primaries before we popped them. I think they jumped back out after about 30 losses v none for us.
Give them a few more weeks of doing that and a few more weeks of other people working out how to combat them properly and I bet we won't be seeing them as the primary fleet ship in the not too distant future...
While I do not believe that drakes need a nerf and that the whines about them are premature and misguided, I can't help but point out to you that you seem to be missing the point completely and that your example is terrible for two reasons.
The fact that you encountered a gang so incompetent that they can't get off reps in a drake fleet does nothing but prove your example should be ignored because they were being failures. People can make logistics work in large armor hac fleets. Armor hacs have smaller signatures, are slower, and armor rep cycles go off at the end of the cycle. Drakes are big and easier to lock, have more buffer and more resistances, and shield rep cycles go off at the start of the cycle. Because some random people couldn't use them does not change the fact that they're some of the easiest things to rep in the game.
Also the fight you're describing sounds too small to be relevant to the kinds of fleets that people are whining about. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor |
Elendra Ragnek
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Posted - 2010.11.04 15:29:00 -
[779]
Originally by: Frug While I do not believe that drakes need a nerf and that the whines about them are premature and misguided, I can't help but point out to you that you seem to be missing the point completely and that your example is terrible for two reasons.
The fact that you encountered a gang so incompetent that they can't get off reps in a drake fleet does nothing but prove your example should be ignored because they were being failures. People can make logistics work in large armor hac fleets. Armor hacs have smaller signatures, are slower, and armor rep cycles go off at the end of the cycle. Drakes are big and easier to lock, have more buffer and more resistances, and shield rep cycles go off at the start of the cycle. Because some random people couldn't use them does not change the fact that they're some of the easiest things to rep in the game.
Also the fight you're describing sounds too small to be relevant to the kinds of fleets that people are whining about.
You should spend a little less time assuming they were incompetent and a little more time wondering why we could knock them out without too much effort.....
We probably would not use the same tactics against a 400 man drake gang but then again we would not use them against any 400 man gang because you need to have low lag and quite frankly thats not a drake issue so I think both points are totally valid.
My drake has sat growing dust in my hanger for quite a few weeks now as we have simply found more effective and more enjoyable fleet formations. Others will too and then the whole too many drakes is going to die down. Its the whole number of people using them that seem to be the issue and I'm trying to give clear examples as to why I think this particular FOTM will resolve itself in due time without the need to nerf them.
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Nomistrav
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Posted - 2010.11.04 17:14:00 -
[780]
Being as the drake can go twice the speed (with MWD all skills level 5) as an Arti Myrmidon I'm actually somewhat surprised. The Drake beats an Arti Myrm in all aspects besides DPS and that's only because of the myrmidon's drones when I ran the HML drake and the Arti Myrm in E-HQ... Everything but the signature radius but with an MWD on just to catch up to the drake it's not a good option being as the signature radius increase only adds on to the incoming damage.
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Frug
Omega Wing
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Posted - 2010.11.04 17:21:00 -
[781]
Edited by: Frug on 04/11/2010 17:25:38
Originally by: Elendra Ragnek
You should spend a little less time assuming they were incompetent and a little more time wondering why we could knock them out without too much effort...
Yes why don't you explain to me the strategy that you omitted from your post which is capable of kiting them and shooting at range while doing what you say, because your choosing to omit that makes your argument vacuous.
Or are you just choosing to omit it because it's special and supersekrit.
How about you share why you were able to do it without them being inept or outnumbering them with the rest of us?
Or are you going to say "we had a fleet of arty machs". - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor |
Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.11.05 09:09:00 -
[782]
Edited by: Spugg Galdon on 05/11/2010 09:13:47 Edited by: Spugg Galdon on 05/11/2010 09:12:00 Wouldn't a rebalance of battle cruisers across the board be the best option.
For example. Drake: *Reduce Drake base speed and targeting range. Forces Drake pilots to fit a SeBo for ranged fights. Lets other ships catch up to it. Prophecy: *Change the Prophecy energy turret cap usage to 10% optimal range. Long range hitter but its cap hungry. Differentiates it from being simply a "Poor Mans Harbinger" Brutix: *Change the Brutix Armour rep bonus to a falloff bonus. Increase PG Myrmidon: *Replace two turret slots for one launcher slot. Reduce total high slots to five. *Increase Drone Bandwidth to 100MBit and Drone bay to 200m3 Other Mechanics: *Allow Sentry Drones to be recalled within drone control range. *Allow the local armour rep/shield boost amount per level ship bonus (Myrmidon/Cyclone) to carry to also include amount of remote rep/shield transfer received per level. *Fix defenders to be as effective as smartbombs at shooting down missiles. Allow them to target any hostile missiles.
Local rep bonus now carries like the resist bonus allowing ships to be buffer fitted and receive similar remote repair as resist ships. Ability to recall sentry drones within drone control range allows drone ships to be sniper fitted effectively. I understand that defender missiles would probably increase lag which is why its on the bottom of my list but I do think that they should be as good, if not better than smart bombs at shooting down incoming missiles. I'm really stuck with rebalancing the Cyclone and the Hurricane for sniper roles without completely screwing with short range balance. Any ideas?
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Flapkonijn
BLACK LIGHTNING MINING CREW
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Posted - 2010.11.05 09:19:00 -
[783]
*BUMP*
I just think it's "mega amusement" to see the 2 sides battle it out between Drake Lovers and Haters
Last time i saw this much hate dicussion was back in the day the myrm was the overpowered owns all BCS...
Wonder when the drake will finally get the nerf bat of doom across the bow
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ITTigerClawIK
Amarr Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
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Posted - 2010.11.05 09:25:00 -
[784]
less regen and moar DPS is what i say
Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected]) |
FlameGlow
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.05 09:47:00 -
[785]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Miss President Drakes need a nerf only to an extent to match other Battlecruiser size vessels.
1. Why do we see such a huge increase in drakes in fleets. A: Drake is a noob stick mobile, it's got a ridiculous tank, it shoots missiles any where you point it to, it can target paint and doesn't take much skill to fly. A: Drakes are cheap, fittings are cheap, even T1.
wrong. 1. they become popular as counter to AHACS 2. they become more popular because it is one of the battlecruisers, that has a reasonable chance to survive in current laggy fleet fights.
Quote: 2. FCs hate to face lots of drakes, they take long time to kill for a low time to destory to isk killed ratio. WHy bring 1 hack when for the price you can bring 3 drakes. 3. If you ignore them they will hurt 4. No other battle cruiser in game requires so little skill, and effort to fit it and fly it correctly.
There are many uses for drakes, and not only a fleet fight, it's a good ship with good tank. Passive tank for PVE is great, and doesn't need a nerf. I think it will be difficult to reduce it's noobstick role in fleets and not ruin a PVE ship it is.
the amount of skills for flying a drake properly is the same amount you need for a fleet cane or fleet harbinger. stop lying to yourself.
No, drakeblobs were there before AHACs, and actually both of those formats don't have anything to do with damage dealers in them, those appeared because of logistics becoming wide-spread (in turn the result of AoE DD removal, sub-BS ships become able to tank, instead of just dying to DD) Drakes and HACs as damage dealers are chosen because of high resists making remote repair more effective. TBH drakes aren't even a good counter to AHAC, much inferior to arty-canes |
Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.11.05 12:03:00 -
[786]
Here is good example how drake is not overpower at all:
We had nice quite small fleet fight where was lot of drakes involved.
Now if you look at tempest who dies and see how much he took damage before he died, Total Damage Taken:193,482.
It is not needed to have huge resist or huge loads ehp on hull/fitting, if you have enough remoterep on field doing their job.
If ccp want to nerf something i request that they should look towards logistic ships.
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JcJet
Caldari Pretenders Inc Tower of Dark Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.05 15:10:00 -
[787]
Well, at least it's so funny to see so many drakes in videos :) ---
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Flapkonijn
BLACK LIGHTNING MINING CREW
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Posted - 2010.11.05 15:41:00 -
[788]
Edited by: Flapkonijn on 05/11/2010 15:42:59
Originally by: Bad Messenger If ccp want to nerf something i request that they should look towards logistic ships.
I LoL'd a little when reading this. I would have to say this the only ship type which actually does exactly what it should do. ANd is not overpowered as if they are used for what to should do they don't do dps and fly outside of attack ranges.
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Frug
Omega Wing
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Posted - 2010.11.05 16:34:00 -
[789]
Originally by: Flapkonijn Edited by: Flapkonijn on 05/11/2010 15:42:59
Originally by: Bad Messenger If ccp want to nerf something i request that they should look towards logistic ships.
I LoL'd a little when reading this. I would have to say this the only ship type which actually does exactly what it should do. ANd is not overpowered as if they are used for what to should do they don't do dps and fly outside of attack ranges.
I lol'd a little while reading your reply. Because you're a bit of a moron.
By your logic, falcons should go back to their old state of affairs because they don't do dps and fly out of attack ranges. Also no matter how much you boosted falcons they'd never be overpowered.
Logistics are great, possibly a little too good. Tweaking them would be difficult though. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor |
Quark Valhala
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.05 17:26:00 -
[790]
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1410401&page=1
FLARES!!! and you will not have to nerf ****...
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.11.05 17:32:00 -
[791]
Originally by: Quark Valhala http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1410401&page=1
FLARES!!! and you will not have to nerf ****...
spawning even more objects in an already overloaded system will definitely help the situation.
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Quark Valhala
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.05 18:03:00 -
[792]
Edited by: Quark Valhala on 05/11/2010 18:13:50 Edited by: Quark Valhala on 05/11/2010 18:12:17
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Quark Valhala http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1410401&page=1
FLARES!!! and you will not have to nerf ****...
spawning even more objects in an already overloaded system will definitely help the situation.
Well there already the almighty defender missles that only would kinda work on a caldari destroyer against a drake at range and it would be like well that was pointless....
All that should be done was make the defenders into flares instead That launched about 3-6 each cycle Could be made like a Smart bomb efect that only took out missles in 10k range or somthin? just an idea .... And we could all just stay in a slow moving bs that has 1 big gun not to overload the system if you like that better :) ?
Module should be unreliable on cap or else in 00 you could use smart bomb... thou they cant activate while huggin a gate. and as far as i see it Every weapon group have an anti to it Guns and ec. have trackin disruptors (wich works a bit to good ;) ) and drones have smart bombs, but missles just hit every single time ... no need for trackin modules in bottom only damage output where you have to chose in gunnery if you wanna hit the stuff or give alot of damage to random pocket of nothin... could be so awsome to fire a flare in a cluster of missles from a +20 gang drakes huggin a gate :)
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Quark Valhala
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.05 18:26:00 -
[793]
Originally by: Frug
Originally by: Flapkonijn Edited by: Flapkonijn on 05/11/2010 15:42:59
Originally by: Bad Messenger If ccp want to nerf something i request that they should look towards logistic ships.
I LoL'd a little when reading this. I would have to say this the only ship type which actually does exactly what it should do. ANd is not overpowered as if they are used for what to should do they don't do dps and fly outside of attack ranges.
I lol'd a little while reading your reply. Because you're a bit of a moron.
By your logic, falcons should go back to their old state of affairs because they don't do dps and fly out of attack ranges. Also no matter how much you boosted falcons they'd never be overpowered.
Logistics are great, possibly a little too good. Tweaking them would be difficult though.
Agreed lees range more tank or somthin. (thou this is for another thread)
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.11.05 22:13:00 -
[794]
I think that this whole discussion is pretty sad, TBH, and that CCP (who ought to know better) would chime in blows. Hard.
Look at the entire ships lineup for Caldari. Longer range, less DPS, not much good solo or small gang, only shines in big numbers. That's CALDARI. Always has been. Rokh only gets used in fleets by those who can't fly anything else. Why? Because it out-ranges everything else, but that doesn't matter if the rest of the fleet can't hit from that far away. It gets a range bonus, where everyone else gets damage or ROF. Eagle? Same story. Yeah, you can hit from twice as far away as other sniper hacs, but who cares? When is the last time you saw a Raven in a serious fleet? You don't.
So, what have we here? Caldari flying like Caldari. Large numbers of ships that are all the same taking advantage of their range bonus. So what say you CCP? NERF IT!! The only reason that Drakes have an advantage (when they're flying in Drake only fleets) is that the things that Caldari usually get scoffed at for (range that doesn't matter, and missle flight time) now become advantages.
Solo, drakes have a tough time against other BCs. It's Caldari,so that's just the way it is. In equal numbers, Drakes die to both nano and armor hacs, and they should. In small to mid sized gangs, they're on a more or less equal footing with other BCs. Put a lot of them together in a large fleet, and they shine, BUT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO.
As a ship class, it's pretty easy to see that Drakes are not imbalanced against their peers, and they die to ships that they should die to. Nerfing the ship because it plays well to its racial strength and because lots of lower skilled pilots just happen to be able to fly them is nuts, even by CCP standards.
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Garion Thorongmor
Universalis Imperium Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2010.11.06 00:30:00 -
[795]
Edited by: Garion Thorongmor on 06/11/2010 00:33:13 There are other things to consider here. Cal players make up the majority of EvE. Cal ships are best at PvE overall. Therefore, you have a lot of pilots, probably a majority, who can fly the ship well. They have BC skill high, and lots of missile support and shield tanking skills trained.
Now, when a corp like mine, which is currently seeking carebear players join the dark side, ie, come out to 0.0 space with us and learn to PvP, it's the drake which most of them can use right from the start. They may not be able to tackle, jam, or fly a frigate worth a damm, but by God they can tank and gank with heavy missiles. This in turn I believe helps leave the impression that the drake is overpowered.
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.11.06 00:52:00 -
[796]
Originally by: Garion Thorongmor
Now, when a corp like mine, which is currently seeking carebear players join the dark side, ie, come out to 0.0 space with us and learn to PvP, it's the drake which most of them can use right from the start. They may not be able to tackle, jam, or fly a frigate worth a damm, but by God they can tank and gank with heavy missiles. This in turn I believe helps leave the impression that the drake is overpowered.
This, pretty much. As anyone who has FCed a defense fleet outside of "leet" PvP alliances lately can tell you, you can always get way more drakes to X up than anything else. Not because they're OP, but because just about any newcommer to 0.0 can fly one.
There should be racial advantages and differences in the game. If you alter the drake to give it stats just like an arty Cain except it fires missles, you'll be creating a smaller Raven, which, like the Raven, will never get used in PvP. What can you bring? Drake. Meh, missles. Can't you fly something else?
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.11.06 01:16:00 -
[797]
Edited by: davet517 on 06/11/2010 01:22:12
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The follow up really to this is should it be the only ship that does not have to choose between tank and gank.
Are you relatively new? You need to go talk to Oveur or someone who remembers why there are races in this game. Yes, shield tankers are supposed to be able to tank and gank. They just can't tackle and run, and yes, Caldari are supposed to have a range advantage, and yes, Caldari are supposed to be awesome in fleet fights at the expense of sucking solo and small gang.
Quote: Talking balance: Fitting any of the other class ships, you are instantly forced into a choice when trying to fit weapons of equivalent range and power. Most will sit at around half the EHP of the drake when trying to do so, whilst the combination of factors (lows for PDU and BCU) and med slots for tank enable it to deliver a pretty awesome package for fleet fights.
Yes, for fleet fights (racial strength, remember)? Go sit yourself on a choke point gate somewhere and count the number of small roaming drake gangs you see going by. Hell, for that matter, count the number of caldari ships period you see in small roaming gangs. Races have strengths and weaknesses, otherwise, why have them?
Quote: It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
What do your hot topics internally tell you about the numbers of Dreads and Carriers in fleet fights post Dominion? You accidently the game with SCs, sport. Fix it, and the numbers of Drakes will go down.
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Val MeR
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.06 01:48:00 -
[798]
Edited by: Val MeR on 06/11/2010 01:54:21 I was always told to fly something serious... ever since I became a Caldari...
Drake was always considered a cheap-lowsp workhorse... popular for being cheap and allowing a caldari missile training pilot to at least target something ocassionally...
And now its due to a nerf?
At least the Drake was something Caldari had right... sure make it balanced - maybe Caldari will dance in stations better than the other races...
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.11.06 02:42:00 -
[799]
Assuming that the Drake gets nerfed to help eliminate missile spam (and I believe that this was settled long before anyone from CCP mentioned it in this thread) the question becomes:
What then for Caldari?
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.06 03:55:00 -
[800]
Originally by: OT Smithers Assuming that the Drake gets nerfed to help eliminate missile spam (and I believe that this was settled long before anyone from CCP mentioned it in this thread) the question becomes:
What then for Caldari?
Caldari gets **** on is what, hell up until 4 months ago no cald ships were ever fielded in fleet ops, now that Fleet ops are the norm, if they Nerf Missiles/Drak Caldari will have absolutely nothing unless they make Missile tracking have 1 other component to counter in the missile formula and give them Insta Hit.
IMHO Arty shouldnt be insta Hit either, Laser makes sense as does Rail`s as they are fast as light, but Arty should be fast yes but not insta Hit. So if Arty gets Insta Hit so should missiles just make a 3rd component to tracking besides Flight time, or an even ezer one like I said before dont count missiles like Drones or ships where they do Location checks every 1/10th of a second, thats what really slows it down.
Make Ravens usable and even a badass BS and Drakes wouldnt be the only choice but as if now Calds main "Fleet BS" has the slowest DMG delivery in game short range and pathetic EHP at about 95k, where as Abby/Geddon/Mega etc all get 115k-150k ehp Easy. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.11.06 10:45:00 -
[801]
Originally by: Flapkonijn Edited by: Flapkonijn on 05/11/2010 15:42:59
Originally by: Bad Messenger If ccp want to nerf something i request that they should look towards logistic ships.
I LoL'd a little when reading this. I would have to say this the only ship type which actually does exactly what it should do. ANd is not overpowered as if they are used for what to should do they don't do dps and fly outside of attack ranges.
Problem is that people want to see how ships explode. CCP nerfed falcon because it was preventing ships to explode, for the same reason they should nerf logistics who keep ships alive.
It same as in alliance tournament, it is boring to watch / fight if your enemy does not die, no matter what you do.
i think that is what is all about.
Nerf Logistics.
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.11.06 11:39:00 -
[802]
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Problem is that people want to see how ships explode. CCP nerfed falcon because it was preventing ships to explode, for the same reason they should nerf logistics who keep ships alive.
It same as in alliance tournament, it is boring to watch / fight if your enemy does not die, no matter what you do.
i think that is what is all about.
Nerf Logistics.
I think logistics are fine. I think ECM and other forms of e-war are fine. Fights should be more interesting and complex than just moar dps and moar tank, and fleets that can pull off advanced,coordinated tactics should be able to fight outnumbered against a dumb blob that's just a brick if damage and EHP.
I hope you realize that the logistics craze is partly due to the Falcon nerf. If you still had falcons that could sit out of range and jam, you wouldn't be seeing the RR fest that you see now, because a counter would exist. If you nerf Logistics next, or Drakes, some other FOTM will just come forward.
What I've seen happen in other games is that there's the nerfing circle of life that goes on for a while, until everything has been nerfed into bland sameness and it all just comes down to DPS and HP. It would suck if that happened in Eve.
Initiative have already come up with one counter to Drake gangs. Given some time, there will probably be others. CCP should only use the nerf bat when something they did (like when they introduced rigs and ignited the nano craze) truly imbalances the game.
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Quolyn
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Posted - 2010.11.06 12:23:00 -
[803]
nerf |
Lili Lu
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.11.06 16:07:00 -
[804]
Originally by: davet517 Initiative have already come up with one counter to Drake gangs. Given some time, there will probably be others.
Ah, but you see it is not an easy counter to implement, has counter-counters, and is still in development. It can work, but it is not a simple business. And, not knowing the computations the servers have to do with smartys, it could be presenting it's own lag contribution problems
Anyway, as has been pointed out by Yaay many times above, the "can be countered" argument misses the point. The ship is out of balance with others in its class, and even to some extent with ships a class above it.
Drakes out-perform all other BCs for tank, while still dealing enough damage to take down all other BCs (and all other heavy ships for that matter including BSs and AHACs but that is for the next paragraph). In a solo or small gang context they can fit a part buffer part regen tank that simply cannot be broken by another BC, and certainly not before succumbing to the dps output of the drake if that other BC attempts to fit full gank in order to have a chance at breaking the Drake's tank. The best another BC can hope for is an opportunity to warp away and leve the contest a draw in the sense that neither ship dies.
In a fleet context a fleet of Harbys or Hurricanes would have no chance against a fleet of Drakes. Harbys or Canes would be unable to inflict similar damage at range and their tanks, whether armor or shield cannot take anything near a similar beating. One could conceive of an immobile RR Myrmidon gang deploying sentrys, assign to target caller, and attempt to alpha the drakes (as some Domi gangs do). Except whoops the Myrm's damage output was put back down to Vexor's. And the immobile sentry drone fleet has it's own problems which I won't go listing. And for what it's worth, in the pve context, Drakes are easy entry, while not ideal, into level 4s. Everyone else has to train their racial BS, BS size weapons, etc.
A fleet of BCs conceptually should not be out-punching and out-tanking BSs in a stand up fight (no mobility advantage being used other than the ability to keep the BSs at preferred range, unlike with frigs speed tanking the tracking), all things being equal, like plenty of logi support on both sides. But they are. Partly it is weapon differences. The BSs can theoretically get more alpha and DPS, but both are subject to the tracking formula, hit quality, and ranged ammo considerations, which reduce that theoretical max damage output. The Drakes on the other hand can sit at 70km doing their max theoretical damage.
On the tanking side the minor if any ehp differences available to the Drakes, depending on fittings on each side, act in synergy with the range and tracking (hit quality) formulas to negate any tank difference. This leaves a situation where the Drake is dealing more effective damage at roughly equal the tank. There is no working (lol defender missiles) specific anti-missile mod in the game, unlike with turrets. Which is why the (imperfect and difficult) firewall concept had to be developed, in an attempt to mitigate the damage advantages of the drake fleets.
This ship has been needing some kind of nerf for a while. It's just that so many people have used, protected, and enjoyed its advantages that it has taken some Colbert sized balls for CCP to finally talk about it in a serious manner. In my previous posts I proposed some alternative adjustments (nerfs) that could be made to the Drake, so I won't restate them. Alternately, I suppose, some creative changes to the game could be made like reducing the range on heavy missiles and introducing some mid or low slot mods necessary for increasing that range back to it's current extent. That would be analogous to tracking enhancers/computers competing with damage, tackle, or tank mods on armor-tanking turret ships. I still would like my previous suggestions looked at to reduce the imblanced Drake tank.
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Val MeR
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.06 18:16:00 -
[805]
Seriously, why improve the game, when you can nerf whatÆs working...
Now if Drake is unbalanced - Caldari should revert back to Ravens? Ohh, maybe you should come up with a nerf for them too, just in case... cause it will be popular after the drake gets all its advantages removed... not because Ravens are balanced, no way, but because there will be absolutely nothing to apply the worthless Caldari skills to...
Now I see one more solution to a lag problem - if Caldari get no usable ships to play with - many will just stop playing all along... less people less lag - thatÆs what you were trying to accomplish, right?
Why bother with so many ship variations û why not just paint them different colors to be able to tell one perfectly balanced ship from the other? Why have 4 different races if they canÆt have advantages in one way or another?
Drake has range, but its hardly an advantage in pvp, cause most targets will just leave the fieldà but again û that exactly the reason some people choose to be Caldari and trained the hell out of missile and shield skillsà Just nerf the Caldari altogether û ôfailö race.
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Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
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Posted - 2010.11.06 18:51:00 -
[806]
Reductio ad absurdum?
Is it an all or nothing game for you? If mods for missile range were introduced what might that do for HAMs? If you cannot have a BS sized tank on a Drake, yes what might that do for a Raven? If changes are made for missile range what other changes could be made to missiles themselves to balance some of that loss?
But then I would not worry about Caldari losing a place in the game. That is an extreme reaction whenever an imbalanced Caldari role in the game is addressed. Look at what happened with the ecm boat "nerf". You lost range but got a buff to the jam stregth bonus, changing the roll of those recons to something many Caldari players have wanted for a long time. Allow me to whine about the decimation of damps on damp boats or webs on web boats without any compensatory buffs. Being the majority race in the game I seriously doubt any nerf to one of your ships can ever put it or the race as a whole in the toilet the way other races have experienced, amarr in a particular a few years ago.
Everyone is so high on Amarr now it seems since some changes were made in various factors a few patches back. I would have no argument with some adjustment to lessen the supremacy of scorch, such as possibly increasing the base armor em resist to 55 (afterall it went from 60 down to 50, which certainly helped the damage output of lasers, possibly too much), slightly reducing the optimal, or something else? I highly doubt that the next balancing patch will only be touching the Drake. The devs have already said they will be adjusting the tech II ammos. Anyway, all the extreme reactions to balancing talk by the devs is just that. Over my years of playing I have to say while I haven't been happy with all the changes, have myself cried out against many, it is sorta getting better all the time (other than lag, and even there . . .).
Drake fleets are a problem in-game both conceptually and performance-wise. Their will be some adjustment (unless CCP's newly found courageous balls shrink again in response to the well-represented very loud chorus). "Don't take away our one good ship we'll be left with nothing" is not a good argument until you see whether all the proposed changes do only, and just, that. If that is the picture of the next balancing patch you will have my sword as well.
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Shin Dari
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Posted - 2010.11.06 19:57:00 -
[807]
Originally by: Lili Lu
Originally by: davet517 Initiative have already come up with one counter to Drake gangs. Given some time, there will probably be others.
Ah, but you see it is not an easy counter to implement, has counter-counters, and is still in development. It can work, but it is not a simple business. And, not knowing the computations the servers have to do with smartys, it could be presenting it's own lag contribution problems
Anyway, as has been pointed out by Yaay many times above, the "can be countered" argument misses the point. The ship is out of balance with others in its class, and even to some extent with ships a class above it.
Drakes out-perform all other BCs for tank, while still dealing enough damage to take down all other BCs (and all other heavy ships for that matter including BSs and AHACs but that is for the next paragraph). In a solo or small gang context they can fit a part buffer part regen tank that simply cannot be broken by another BC, and certainly not before succumbing to the dps output of the drake if that other BC attempts to fit full gank in order to have a chance at breaking the Drake's tank. The best another BC can hope for is an opportunity to warp away and leve the contest a draw in the sense that neither ship dies.
Anybody who loses to a Drake in a solo fight deserves it for being stupid. For a Drake to mount a good passive tank it needs to use all of the low and medium slots, and thus the other BC can get away if it chooses to do so.
Quote: In a fleet context a fleet of Harbys or Hurricanes would have no chance against a fleet of Drakes. Harbys or Canes would be unable to inflict similar damage at range and their tanks, whether armor or shield cannot take anything near a similar beating. One could conceive of an immobile RR Myrmidon gang deploying sentrys, assign to target caller, and attempt to alpha the drakes (as some Domi gangs do). Except whoops the Myrm's damage output was put back down to Vexor's. And the immobile sentry drone fleet has it's own problems which I won't go listing. And for what it's worth, in the pve context, Drakes are easy entry, while not ideal, into level 4s. Everyone else has to train their racial BS, BS size weapons, etc.
That seems to suggest to me that you really wish that other races also have tanking BCs.
Quote: A fleet of BCs conceptually should not be out-punching and out-tanking BSs in a stand up fight (no mobility advantage being used other than the ability to keep the BSs at preferred range, unlike with frigs speed tanking the tracking), all things being equal, like plenty of logi support on both sides. But they are. Partly it is weapon differences. The BSs can theoretically get more alpha and DPS, but both are subject to the tracking formula, hit quality, and ranged ammo considerations, which reduce that theoretical max damage output. The Drakes on the other hand can sit at 70km doing their max theoretical damage.
That is missiles for you, nice consistent but a bit low dps, I suggest you start training for it. Also given that the drake has such a large signature, I don't expect any competent BS pilot to be out-punched under non-lag conditions.
Quote: This ship has been needing some kind of nerf for a while.
It has been nerfed, sad to see that some people can only think in terms of nerfs. What a lack of creativity.
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Captain Smugdog
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Posted - 2010.11.06 20:04:00 -
[808]
It's been my understanding (as a spectator of 0.0 combat and highsec marketeer by trade) that caldari haven't been a stakeholder in fleet warfare for quite some time. If there were any bets to be placed and profit to be made I would certainly look for the caldari to surrender their presence in pvp post-patch without the hyper-effective drake in-hand.
From an economic standpoint (the only one i'm all that familiar with), my sales of caldari ships and modules into the various nullsec regions have been entirely dependant on the ammount of pve activity taking place (again, placing the drake as an outlier). When wide-spread conflict engulfs a region, my caldari ships are no longer worth their minerals and jump fuel costs. When conflict ceases the purchase of caldari goods returns to a profitable venture. I won't give you a snapshot of my spreadsheets, but I will tell you the volume of t2 caldari ships (which is a large portion of those sold in several regions) make up a fractional percentage of my total t2 ship sales in 0.0 and the t1 ships, without representation of the drake, are (as explained) almost entirely dependant on a raven-powered ratting market.
So, in summary, I wouldn't become too bothered by changes made or not made to the drake in the patch. In terms of soverign warfare and tactics at a macro level, the caldari do not have a place either way (in the long run). What I would be concerned with as a caldari pilot is seeing meaningful reasons to bring shield and missile tech into the big picture of pvp independantly of the drake.
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.11.06 22:21:00 -
[809]
Originally by: Lili Lu
Originally by: davet517 Initiative have already come up with one counter to Drake gangs. Given some time, there will probably be others.
Ah, but you see it is not an easy counter to implement...
See, there's the problem right there. How come I can't just sit still, turn my modules on, and beat these drakes? Quick! to the forums!
I'm not going to quote all of what you said there bud, but most of it is just plain not correct if you are a competent pilot or FC. Yes a passive drake can pretty much tank other BCs DPS if they sacrifice all of their DPS. You can't kill it, but you won't die to it either unless you suck.
Yes, if you have a gang of 20 Harbys or Cains and you sit dead still and let 20 drakes out-range you, you will die to them. Here's a clue: Don't sit still and you will kill them if you have a competent FC.
Drakes only come into their own when there are enough of them to start alpha striking opposing ships faster than they can be repped, but, again, that's their racial strength. A large fleet of tempests has a similar advantage with the alpha strike of artys, but, unlike Caldari they aren't tanky, they have to use agility as their defense. That's their racial strength.
I hate to sound like an old fart, but damn, kids these days. Learn to play the game, and learn to use the racial advantages of the ships you fly before running to the forums looking to get things nerfed until every race of ship flies exactly the same.
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.11.06 22:31:00 -
[810]
Originally by: Captain Smugdog Awesome troll..
+1. Trollin' with 'ma homies...
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.07 00:10:00 -
[811]
Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 07/11/2010 00:12:34 I like where this thread is goin!
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.11.07 01:14:00 -
[812]
Originally by: Captain Smugdog
In terms of soverign warfare and tactics at a macro level, the caldari do not have a place either way (in the long run). What I would be concerned with as a caldari pilot is seeing meaningful reasons to bring shield and missile tech into the big picture of pvp independantly of the drake.
Most of us are. Or, put another way (and as your market data suggests), there are two basic flavors of "Caldari" Pilots:
1. Those who focus on PvE 2. Those training something else
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Lili Lu
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Posted - 2010.11.07 01:29:00 -
[813]
Edited by: Lili Lu on 07/11/2010 02:10:36
Originally by: davet517
Originally by: Lili Lu Ah, but you see it is not an easy counter to implement...
See, there's the problem right there. How come I can't just sit still, turn my modules on, and beat these drakes? Quick! to the forums!
Quick, totally miss the point, and that I was a central figure in the first successful firewall fleet, and hasve been in later firewall fleet fights. I couldn't possibly know what is done in them, and they aren't simply tank and shoot as you are fond of saying. Have you been in one? No, I didn't think so. Oh and why not mischaracterize the arguments by using the usual Drake tactic to boot.
Originally by: davet517
I'm not going to quote all of what you said there bud, but most of it is just plain not correct if you are a competent pilot or FC. Yes a passive drake can pretty much tank other BCs DPS if they sacrifice all of their DPS. You can't kill it, but you won't die to it either unless you suck.
Wow! you mad? Way to miss that I said another BC could warp off leaving the encounter in a draw. So don't address arguments but instead engage in ad hominem.
Originally by: davet517
Yes, if you have a gang of 20 Harbys or Cains and you sit dead still and let 20 drakes out-range you, you will die to them. Here's a clue: Don't sit still and you will kill them if you have a competent FC.
Ok, yes I totally said Harbys and Canes should sit still against drakes. That is why we see gangs of 20 Harbys or Canes regularly trouncing gangs of 20 Drakes. Where did you pull this oft seen scenario out of? Also, btw, Darkside would like to have a word with you.
Originally by: davet517
Drakes only come into their own when there are enough of them to start alpha striking opposing ships faster than they can be repped, but, again, that's their racial strength. A large fleet of tempests has a similar advantage with the alpha strike of artys, but, unlike Caldari they aren't tanky, they have to use agility as their defense. That's their racial strength.
Ah, so get out there with your agile Tempest fleet and kill those Drake blobs. Waiting, still waiting. :Crickets:
Originally by: davet517
I hate to sound like an old fart, but damn, kids these days. Learn to play the game, and learn to use the racial advantages of the ships you fly before running to the forums looking to get things nerfed until every race of ship flies exactly the same.
Yes, the game is perfect as it is. It should never be changed. We should continue to have Drakes as far and away the most used ship in pvp and pve.
Also, I'm not youngster in game or out, but I'll let you play the older person, even though it appears your old fart status has not endowed you with the ability to formulate well reasoned dialogue or argument.
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Pheonix Kanan
Caldari Two Malicious Entities
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Posted - 2010.11.07 02:05:00 -
[814]
Drakes aren't the problem, it's passive shield tanking that the issue. It's unbalanced vs every other form of tanking.
Some examples: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/2066-PASSIVECANE.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/4657-Passive-Shield-Tanked-Myrmidon.html
Read a blog about the very subject: http://sleeplessinspace.blogspot.com/2010/10/nerf-drake-rawr-wait-what.html
Obviously there are problems with server lag but that's just abusing the system and can be done with any ship in large enough quantity. Passive tanking avoids lag problems because the tank requires little to no player management to run effectively. -----
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Captain Smugdog
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Posted - 2010.11.07 02:11:00 -
[815]
Originally by: OT Smithers
Originally by: Captain Smugdog
In terms of soverign warfare and tactics at a macro level, the caldari do not have a place either way (in the long run). What I would be concerned with as a caldari pilot is seeing meaningful reasons to bring shield and missile tech into the big picture of pvp independantly of the drake.
Most of us are. Or, put another way (and as your market data suggests), there are two basic flavors of "Caldari" Pilots:
1. Those who focus on PvE 2. Those training something else
That would certainly seem to be the case.
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.11.07 02:58:00 -
[816]
Originally by: Pheonix Kanan Drakes aren't the problem, it's passive shield tanking that the issue. It's unbalanced vs every other form of tanking.
Which is why everybody passive shield tanks, and almost nobody armor tanks?
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Pheonix Kanan
Caldari Two Malicious Entities
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Posted - 2010.11.07 03:04:00 -
[817]
Originally by: davet517
Which is why everybody passive shield tanks, and almost nobody armor tanks?
It's not that armor tanking doesn't work, it's the fact that passive shield tanking works better, even on some armor tanking specific ships (as per my example).
And it's not just passive tanking, that's just one piece of a very large and complex puzzle. But for the issue of the drake and it being "overpowered", passive shield tanking is, IMO, one of the major factors in why the drake is so widely seen as such. -----
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.11.07 03:05:00 -
[818]
Edited by: davet517 on 07/11/2010 03:09:20 Edited by: davet517 on 07/11/2010 03:08:00
Originally by: Lili Lu Ah, so get out there with your agile Tempest fleet and kill those Drake blobs. Waiting, still waiting. :Crickets:
Can be done, have done, up to a point. In fact you can kill a drake blob with just about any sniper BS fleet up to a point. The problem, as I'm sure you know, is lag. You can't make use of a Tempest's agility in a lagged out situation. HOWEVER, how Drakes perform in a lagged out situation vs. the natural counters to them is no reason to nerf them.
Quote: Ok, yes I totally said Harbys and Canes should sit still against drakes. That is why we see gangs of 20 Harbys or Canes regularly trouncing gangs of 20 Drakes. Where did you pull this oft seen scenario out of? Also, btw, Darkside would like to have a word with you.
The number of people who are skilled to fly Drakes simply dwarfs the number that are skilled to fly Harbies and Cains, and, to be fair, it takes more player skill to fly a Harby or Cain well, due to the nature of their racial advantages. And, unless you are among the best PvPers in this game, a Darkside gang can kill your Drakes with Harbys, or your Cains with Drakes, or your Drakes with Cains. You also don't see them on these forums crying for nerfs very often.
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Val MeR
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.07 04:01:00 -
[819]
Edited by: Val MeR on 07/11/2010 04:05:03
Originally by: Lili Lu Wall of text
You seem to like talking on the keyboard... may be you should instead just outline where the Drake, in your view, is overpowered? So we can discuss your concerns about that "super-uber-ship"...
Line by line... so people with first hand knowledge can compare it to the other BC...
I will start
Cons
1.If you want great passive tank Drake, you will have to sacrifice DPS, tackle, speed... just about everything. Before you go on at how great a Drake tank is û just play around with fits, you wonÆt see a miracle Drake that can maintain high ehp and be good at something elseà Now consider how many skills goes into shields to even be able to have anything close to a tank (if its not your pve ship where you use every single slot for tank).
2.It can have range at the expense of DPS and longer time it takes to reach the targetà no insta damage. Again shooting other BC from 50-70 kms is fun, but isnÆt going to give you any advantage cause they can just run away.
3.To make it act like Harby or Hurricane you will have 30-50 ehp drake with modest damage an a range of 18 kms.à which is again on par with other ships. Btw in most case scenarios Drake is limited to kinetic damage only, so here is a hint how you can negate any dps coming from Drakesà if it uses anything else û dps is just laughable.
Pros
4.It can shield tankà sorry if it bothers you, but its just what Caldari do better on Drakes. Again to some extent, since in a normal fit itÆs a buffer tank û nothing more.
5.It has better range with Heavy Missiles, which is handy in pveà lets you stay out of the main fight in pvp. (Add low priority of Drakes in a fight and you will get the source of that idea that Drakes have great tankà they donÆt they just survive more often.)
6.Its DPS is consistentà if target is sitting still.
7.It cheap on the skills side, most new players can fly it within a few monthà although its far from something that you describe hereà its weak on tank, dps, speed and an easy kill for just about anyoneà
8.It looks good. Well if you like bricks anyway. :)
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Pheonix Kanan
Caldari Two Malicious Entities
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Posted - 2010.11.07 04:33:00 -
[820]
Originally by: Val MeR Wall of text.
The drake is NOT overpowered. It just abuses a system that is already broken. -----
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.11.07 08:05:00 -
[821]
Originally by: Val MeR
7.It's cheap on the skills side, most new players can fly it within a few monthà although its far from something that you describe hereà its weak on tank, dps, speed and an easy kill for just about anyoneà
If you compare max skilled drake and example max skilled armor ab zealot you will end to result that those take both almost same amount of skill points.
Zealot needs cruiser lvl5, and assault ships lvl4 but it does not need drones, shield skills or mwd skills etc. Maxed missile skills and medium lazorz with lvl5 supports take almost same amount of time. Drake need for shield lot of skills and it needs hull upgrades lvl4 for damage control too, and you need capacitor skills for drake too if you want to burn with mwd and keep range.
Yes, you can board drake with 5 day old characters skills (in fact you can board bs too with low skills) but to make it work good you need lot of more skills than that.
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Rakivic
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2010.11.07 08:12:00 -
[822]
Originally by: Val MeR Edited by: Val MeR on 07/11/2010 04:12:46 Edited by: Val MeR on 07/11/2010 04:07:45
Originally by: Lili Lu Wall of text
You seem to like talking on the keyboard... may be you should instead just outline where the Drake, in your view, is overpowered? So we can discuss your concerns about that "super-uber-ship"...
Line by line... so people with first hand knowledge can compare it to the other BC...
I will start
Cons
1.If you want great passive tank Drake, you will have to sacrifice DPS, tackle, speed... just about everything. Before you go on at how great a Drake tank is û just play around with fits, you wonÆt see a miracle Drake that can maintain high ehp and be good at something elseà Now consider how many skills goes into shields to even be able to have anything close to a tank (if its not your pve ship where you use every single slot for tank).
2.It can have range at the expense of DPS and longer time it takes to reach the targetà no insta damage. Again shooting other BC from 50-70 kms is fun, but isnÆt going to give you any advantage cause they can just run away.
3.To make it act like Harby or Hurricane you will have low ehp drake with modest damage and a range of 18 kms.à which is again on par with other ships. Btw in most case scenarios Drake is limited to kinetic damage only, so here is a hint how you can negate any dps coming from Drakesà if it uses anything else û dps is just laughable.
Pros
4.It can shield tankà sorry if it bothers you, but its just what Caldari do better on Drakes. Again to some extent, since in a normal fit itÆs a buffer tank û nothing more.
5.It has better range with Heavy Missiles, which is handy in pveà lets you stay out of the main fight in pvp. (Add low priority of Drakes in a fight and you will get the source of that idea that Drakes have great tankà they donÆt, they just survive more often.)
6.Its DPS is consistentà if target is sitting still.
7.It's cheap on the skills side, most new players can fly it within a few monthà although its far from something that you describe hereà its weak on tank, dps, speed and an easy kill for just about anyoneà
8.It looks good. Well if you like bricks anyway. :)
This guy is right on the money, the drake is ether tank or gank. IF you fit it to do both it's comparable to the other cursers. In closing the drake is not broken and dont need to be fixed
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Shin Dari
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Posted - 2010.11.07 09:41:00 -
[823]
Originally by: davet517
Originally by: Pheonix Kanan Drakes aren't the problem, it's passive shield tanking that the issue. It's unbalanced vs every other form of tanking.
Which is why everybody passive shield tanks, and almost nobody armor tanks?
Passive tanking is easy. All forms of active tanking require a pilot to pay attention. This is the reason why new guys prefer to use passive tanking fittings.
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Harotak
Method of Destruction The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.11.07 14:21:00 -
[824]
CCP if you absolutely have to nerf it, increase the shield recharge time.
The vast majority of useful PVP drake fits don't rely on passive regen, but the carebears will cry up a storm here on the forums and all the lemmings will hear the crys of a drake nerf and decide the ship is no good anymore. End result is less drake blobs without making the ship useless.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.11.07 19:02:00 -
[825]
Originally by: Pheonix Kanan Drakes aren't the problem, it's passive shield tanking that the issue. It's unbalanced vs every other form of tanking.
Thanks for letting us know in advance you have no idea what you're talking about. You don't passive tank Drakes for PVP.
Those fits you linked, along with passive Drakes in general, are mission ships. Please stay the **** out of nerf debates until you learn basic terminology. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Pheonix Kanan
Caldari Two Malicious Entities
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Posted - 2010.11.08 00:26:00 -
[826]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Thanks for letting us know in advance you have no idea what you're talking about. You don't passive tank Drakes for PVP.
Those fits you linked, along with passive Drakes in general, are mission ships. Please stay the **** out of nerf debates until you learn basic terminology.
Thanks for letting me know you are a tool. People can and do passive tank drakes for PVP. It's more cookie cutter than putting 3 tri-marks on a RR ship. It's not like they don't have other gang members to tackle, or does everyone in EVE fly around solo?
The fits I linked are not mission ships, they are LOL fits to show how stupid the tanking is. Pay more attention to the point of the arguement instead of being a total douche bag. Please STFU until you learn that not everyone has the same opinion as you, tool. -----
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.08 02:00:00 -
[827]
Originally by: Harotak CCP if you absolutely have to nerf it, increase the shield recharge time.
This is unacceptable. Any nerf is unacceptable. The drake is the recipient of a lag advantage (much like it benefits amarr ships who don't have to worry about reloading).
Nerfing ships in any way shape or form because some sov block wants to pile 3000 players into one system is the epitome of stupid. I'm all for changing animations and making the nodes more efficient, but re-balancing ships for a total-lag scenario is rediculous.
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MsBio II
Caldari Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.11.11 14:41:00 -
[828]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
It is a hot topic internally as the number of drakes present in fleet fights is rising dramatically in the last six months and with this behaviour change we are witnessing a large impact on performance as the missile usage causes high additional load.
When put in that blob scenario is is very powerful and unfortunately causes far greater load than would be ideal.
1. Put ANYTHING in a blob scenario and it becomes very powerful. 50 drakes vs 50 canes (canes win with dps alone) 2. Fix missiles and u fix your load problems. 3. Drakes are only popular because CCP makes node crashes popular in fleet battles. 4. Drakes are STILL the crappiest ship ever they are only marginally useful for baiting since they have very low dps compared to it's counterparts.
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VaL Iscariot
ELICIT OPERATIONS INC Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.11.12 18:08:00 -
[829]
Originally by: Marmios Caldari have finally 1 (!) ship to bring to a fleetfight and you are going to nerf it? Seriously? The option to fit gankand dps is the ONLY option to fit a Drake. If you nerf it, Caldari will be completely useless again. Great.
this. Ban CCP for thinking of nerfing the drake Signature removed for not being EVE related. Zymurgist |
cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.11.12 18:15:00 -
[830]
a drake is completely ineffective against _______.
Try to figure it out because it already exists in game.
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.11.12 18:18:00 -
[831]
Edited by: OT Smithers on 12/11/2010 18:18:24 (Lifted from Ships and Modules Forum)
Q3 Economics Report, now showing in the Information Portal.
1 Hurricane 29,346 2 Drake 24,012 3 Vagabond 13,296 4 Zealot 11,800 5 Sabre 10,919 6 Harbinger 10,888 7 Dramiel 8,675 8 Rifter 6,350 9 Cynabal 6,139 10 Thrasher 4,773 11 Tempest 4,468 12 Megathron 4,207 13 Rupture 4,061 14 Armageddon 4,039 15 Hound 3,962 16 Myrmidon 3,831 17 Abaddon 3,668 18 Loki 3,622 19 Manticore 3,622 20 Tengu 3,611
Looks like the Drake is off the top, while the other Caldari ships are falling off the bottom.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.11.12 19:31:00 -
[832]
Quote: Looks like the Drake is off the top, while the other Caldari ships are falling off the bottom.
Also notice the fact that one of those Caldari ships is a stealth bomber - and the Minmatar one is not only also on that list but higher up. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Whinis 31
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Posted - 2010.11.12 19:52:00 -
[833]
As far as the skill trees go drakes take little to no time to become effective in where as harbies or zealots takes months. My friend recently just started the game 10/31/10 and yesterday 11/12/10 is now able to fly a fully tech 2 fitted drake minus the launchers ( 1 week away). However I have amarr friends that are on month 3 and just getting tech 2 lasers as they need almost 3 times the skills for medium lasers as apposed to missiles. shield skills also take relatively low time to train for passive tank compared to armour tank. However aside from skills not sure on how they fair in battle yet.
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Worgen Fratmon
Minmatar Instapop Industries death from above..
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Posted - 2010.11.12 22:23:00 -
[834]
Originally by: Pheonix Kanan Drakes aren't the problem, it's passive shield tanking that the issue. It's unbalanced vs every other form of tanking.
Some examples: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/2066-PASSIVECANE.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/4657-Passive-Shield-Tanked-Myrmidon.html
Read a blog about the very subject: http://sleeplessinspace.blogspot.com/2010/10/nerf-drake-rawr-wait-what.html
Obviously there are problems with server lag but that's just abusing the system and can be done with any ship in large enough quantity. Passive tanking avoids lag problems because the tank requires little to no player management to run effectively.
I don't disagree with your hypothesis, but the bonuses that the Drake gets add to the problem. There is no other BC that gets both a defensive bonus (+5% to resists) and a bounus to damage (+5% to kinetic damage from HAMs & HMs).
IMO, it is the combination of these bonuses that make the drake over powered, in comparrison to other BCs.
Replacing the damage bonus with a fitting bonus, ore replacing the resistance bonus with a ROF bonus would put the Drake (bonus wise) in line with the other BCs. It would need testing to ensure the right balance of bonuses and to make sure that the Drake (or another BC) was vastly superior than the other BCs.
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.12 22:37:00 -
[835]
Originally by: Whinis 31 As far as the skill trees go drakes take little to no time to become effective in where as harbies or zealots takes months. My friend recently just started the game 10/31/10 and yesterday 11/12/10 is now able to fly a fully tech 2 fitted drake minus the launchers ( 1 week away). However I have amarr friends that are on month 3 and just getting tech 2 lasers as they need almost 3 times the skills for medium lasers as apposed to missiles. shield skills also take relatively low time to train for passive tank compared to armour tank. However aside from skills not sure on how they fair in battle yet.
That is very vague...
You do not mention what missiles he will be getting, HAM's or Heavies. That means he could have a close combat Drake or a range Drake. It takes on average only 30days to get Lasers and you get the short and ranged versions while your friend has to pick one or the other.
I doubt in 12 days he has Weapons Upgrade 4, Engineering 5 and Electronics 5 to fit the ship. Nor does he have the Battlecruiser skill high enough to heavily benefit from the massive tank or the 5 anti Frig Drone with DI to make them effective.
In short he is getting one type of tech 2 weapon on a ship that lacks the support to be flown properly.
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.11.12 23:32:00 -
[836]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm That is very vague...
You do not mention what missiles he will be getting, HAM's or Heavies. That means he could have a close combat Drake or a range Drake. It takes on average only 30days to get Lasers and you get the short and ranged versions while your friend has to pick one or the other.
I doubt in 12 days he has Weapons Upgrade 4, Engineering 5 and Electronics 5 to fit the ship. Nor does he have the Battlecruiser skill high enough to heavily benefit from the massive tank or the 5 anti Frig Drone with DI to make them effective.
In short he is getting one type of tech 2 weapon on a ship that lacks the support to be flown properly.
Nonsense! If you have learned nothing from this thread, you should have at least discovered that the Drake possesses a special magical quality that bypasses even training time. It is just THAT good.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.11.13 00:46:00 -
[837]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 13/11/2010 00:50:21
Quote: Nonsense! If you have learned nothing from this thread, you should have at least discovered that the Drake possesses a special magical quality that bypasses even training time. It is just THAT good.
And naturally, you don't need any missile support skills to make it put out non-lolworthy dps, no sir, you can be in a fully fitted high-damage pwnmobile within 2 weeks of starting this game!
Actually I just made an EVEmon plan of the lowest character I have on here (About 1.7mil SP) - it takes over a month for battlecruiser 4 and t2 heavies alone. To make this even clearer: that's with no fitting skills, no missile support skills, no shield, cap or propulsion mods.
As I'm fairly sure I've stated before: A Drake is easy to train for. A well skilled/fitted Drake is not. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.11.13 02:50:00 -
[838]
Edited by: OT Smithers on 13/11/2010 02:50:58 As though skills and training were necessary. It's a Drake my friend.
A DRAKE!
Just owning one turns shivering noobs into bitter vets. I don't even think it could be nerfed -- it is that powerful. When two of them face off it's server armageddon divided by zero. Sure, more people prefer the Hurricane, but that's only because they cannot handle the power.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.13 06:11:00 -
[839]
I passed out with my drake and came back to a clone vat. I'm not sure if this is a bug or not... I was told the drake cannot be killed by anything. Must have been hot-dropped by a titan or something................
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it440
Caldari OZ industries and Technology
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Posted - 2010.11.13 10:16:00 -
[840]
just spoke to Leksi Bar'zuk in game, he found his drake in hanger, he must have been really drunk, lol he should have known better to think anything could have detroyed a drake... CCP supports this message. I think. |
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.13 11:24:00 -
[841]
Originally by: davet517 Edited by: davet517 on 23/10/2010 03:09:16 Edited by: davet517 on 23/10/2010 03:07:57
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Some really good opinions here. Remember this is atypical of our usual communication which comes following on from some action or pending change. Here we are experimenting in communication and catalyzing an open debate on a question posed regarding drake popularity and whether it is due to it being imbalanced and gathering opinion on that.
As stated in earlier responses which I see some of you skipped(!), we would never nerf the drake because it used missiles and missiles cause additional load, that would be nonsensical indeed as many note.
IF, you really want to investigate this, load up toad and run some numbers. You folks inside the firewall have access to much better information than we do. It might sound cynical, but I don't think you're really interested in investigating. What you're doing here is trolling to fan the flames of a whine thread to give youself some political cover.
Drakes aren't overpowered, and I think you know that. They have a well earned reputation of being the tankiest of the battlecruisers with anemic DPS compared to some of the others. If you nerf their tank they'll just be the BC with anemic DPS compared to the others, and take their place on the shelf next to all of the other Caldari ships that never get used.
The only reason they are so popular is that they are an "everyman's" counter to AHACs and other popular compositions that take a lot more isk and SP to field effectively. The reason that you see so many of them isn't because they are OP, it's because so many pilots have the skill to fly them, being a popular PvE ship.
Leave them alone. IF missles are making your server cry, fix that.
EDIT: For the record, I seldom if ever fly Drakes in combat. I'm arguing for all the younger pilots who are having fun and being useful in fleet fights with them.
That might be true if everyone started out as Caldari and made the logical progression to Caldari battlecruisers.
They don't, they start out as Amarrian, Minmatar, Gallante and Caldari and then for some reason they cross train to fly the drake.
Now what could that reason be. Why would so many newbies decide to get a drake over their own BC's? The answer is obvious.
Sig ---
Quote: Originally by Oveur: High security empire space is supposed to be quite safe. ... That's the whole point of high security.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.11.13 11:59:00 -
[842]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 13/11/2010 12:03:03
Quote: The answer is obvious.
The fact it steamrolls level 3 missions? That's why a few of my corp trained it.
Quote: People can and do passive tank drakes for PVP
Yes, idiots bringing their mission ships passive tank them. PVP fit Drakes on the other hand are buffer fitted. (Did you just not know the difference? Either way you shouldn't even be part of this debate.)
Quote: The fits I linked are not mission ships
Yeah, they actually are mission/general PVE ships. That's what passive tanking is used for, and the only place it's actually impressive. Good PVP fits do not passive tank. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
souhyeahright
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Posted - 2010.11.13 12:01:00 -
[843]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 13/11/2010 00:50:21
Quote: Nonsense! If you have learned nothing from this thread, you should have at least discovered that the Drake possesses a special magical quality that bypasses even training time. It is just THAT good.
And naturally, you don't need any missile support skills to make it put out non-lolworthy dps, no sir, you can be in a fully fitted high-damage pwnmobile within 2 weeks of starting this game!
Actually I just made an EVEmon plan of the lowest character I have on here (About 1.7mil SP) - it takes over a month for battlecruiser 4 and t2 heavies alone. To make this even clearer: that's with no fitting skills, no missile support skills, no shield, cap or propulsion mods.
As I'm fairly sure I've stated before: A Drake is easy to train for. A well skilled/fitted Drake is not.
A harbinger or (shield) hurricane without scorch or barrage is worthless. A Drake without furies loses maybe 20% of its nominal DPS against BC-sized targets and above. T2 turrets are essential; T2 launchers are useful but not critical.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.13 12:12:00 -
[844]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 13/11/2010 12:03:03
Quote: The answer is obvious.
The fact it steamrolls level 3 missions? That's why a few of my corp trained it.
Regardless of why the are so popular the spill on effect is still too many people in them. They could be popular because people like the way they look that still equates to an over-representation of them in EVE.
The solution is obvious. Make them less desirable by removing some of the reasons they are so desirable. Sig ---
Quote: Originally by Oveur: High security empire space is supposed to be quite safe. ... That's the whole point of high security.
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.13 12:57:00 -
[845]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona You asked why people cross train Caldari for the Drake.
The same reason so many, and I mean so so many people of all races cross train minmatar. Infact look at any PVP corp and it is a sea of Minmatar ships lead by the ever popular Hurricane.
Who just got top spot on the who kiied the most ship board in CCP's latest Q3 report. Along with 9 other Minmatar ships. And yet despite there being more Drakes in the game, due to everyone and there mother flying them for PVE as well. Hurricane preformance vs loss and preformence vs Drake is much higher. Even then right below it the Vegabond gets more then half the amount of kills over a Drake, a Minmatar ship that cost a lot more. So it seems the Caldari's major contender is jamed between to Minmatar ships.
So for everyone who cross trained Caldari for the Drake there is another who trained Minmatar for the Cane.
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.11.13 13:33:00 -
[846]
Originally by: it440 just spoke to Leksi Bar'zuk in game, he found his drake in hanger, he must have been really drunk, lol he should have known better to think anything could have detroyed a drake...
You can be passed out drunk and the Drake will STILL get you home -- then tuck you safely into your clone vat before parking itself in the garage.
CCP NERF THIS IF YOU CAN!!!!
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Mauricius
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Posted - 2010.11.13 15:02:00 -
[847]
In my opinion all tier 2 BC should be nerfed. Yes I am serous. I know we all love our harbies drakes and canes but they are just way too OP. Seriously why should you fly a damage boat with insane EHP and and insane DPS for 60 +/- 15 mil totally fully fitted? These days it is hard to win a fight against them even in a decent BS.
You just get 70 percent of BS for 40% of a price. Ridiculous. People don't train BS anymore... Fully fitted Megathron with rigs goes up to 165mil. Hurricane for 75. (insurance included?) There is no way to win against 2 canes if they know what they are doing. Same goes for drakes.
Only ship that is practically different than other gun/launcher BC platforms is Myrmidon witch us virtually useless in large engagements, but still quite dangerous in small fights and good for PVE.
Or simply go for BS boost. Cuz this small difference in usefulness is just way to small!
And dear God, Amarr look much different than before! They still have practically no cruiser and not enough CPU (there comes in the extra low slot very handy). They are absolute power in large engagements. Except when it lags. Then you just put t1 Minmartar guns on your Abbaddon and off you go. Gellenteans have virtually nothing to do in 0.0 except plex in Ishtars or something. Only exception is Megathron which is still a very good ship. Deimos and Astarte are such a total **** in 20+ gangs that you feel like going militia again... Even with rails you can't compare them with Zealots, Munins, and Slepniers. Even a Hurricane out-powers the Astarte in many aspects of blob warfare.
Gallente needs boost, it never has been bosted since 2005. never!
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.13 15:09:00 -
[848]
Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 13/11/2010 15:09:18
Originally by: Mauricius In my opinion all tier 2 BC should be nerfed. Yes I am serous. I know we all love our harbies drakes and canes but they are just way too OP. Seriously why should you fly a damage boat with insane EHP and and insane DPS for 60 +/- 15 mil totally fully fitted? These days it is hard to win a fight against them even in a decent BS.
You just get 70 percent of BS for 40% of a price. Ridiculous. People don't train BS anymore... Fully fitted Megathron with rigs goes up to 165mil. Hurricane for 75. (insurance included?) There is no way to win against 2 canes if they know what they are doing. Same goes for drakes.
Only ship that is practically different than other gun/launcher BC platforms is Myrmidon witch us virtually useless in large engagements, but still quite dangerous in small fights and good for PVE.
Or simply go for BS boost. Cuz this small difference in usefulness is just way to small!
And dear God, Amarr look much different than before! They still have practically no cruiser and not enough CPU (there comes in the extra low slot very handy). They are absolute power in large engagements. Except when it lags. Then you just put t1 Minmartar guns on your Abbaddon and off you go. Gellenteans have virtually nothing to do in 0.0 except plex in Ishtars or something. Only exception is Megathron which is still a very good ship. Deimos and Astarte are such a total **** in 20+ gangs that you feel like going militia again... Even with rails you can't compare them with Zealots, Munins, and Slepniers. Even a Hurricane out-powers the Astarte in many aspects of blob warfare.
Gallente needs boost, it never has been bosted since 2005. never!
I don't know what game you play, but I am playing Teir 2 Battlecruisers Online.
Really I would prefer removing the Teir system over that. And buffing the fitting regs and Slots of the lower Teir Cruisers and Frigates. Then Bringing the Teir 2 Battlecruisers more inline with there Teir 1 Associates.
Roles not Teirs!
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.11.14 22:59:00 -
[849]
How is this not a sticky yet?
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it440
Caldari OZ industries and Technology
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Posted - 2010.11.14 23:43:00 -
[850]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider How is this not LOCKED yet?
fixed that for you. CCP supports this message. I think. |
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it440
Caldari OZ industries and Technology
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Posted - 2010.11.14 23:54:00 -
[851]
Originally by: Mauricius In my opinion all tier 2 BC should be nerfed. Yes I am serous. I know we all love our harbies drakes and canes but they are just way too OP. Seriously why should you fly a damage boat with insane EHP and and insane DPS for 60 +/- 15 mil totally fully fitted? These days it is hard to win a fight against them even in a decent BS.
You just get 70 percent of BS for 40% of a price. Ridiculous. People don't train BS anymore... Fully fitted Megathron with rigs goes up to 165mil. Hurricane for 75. (insurance included?) There is no way to win against 2 canes if they know what they are doing. Same goes for drakes.
are you talking about the isk efficiency ratio battle? why are so many anal about that? eve would be more enjoyable if the isk efficiency stats were removed. |
Mang0o
Caldari Cosmic Fusion
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Posted - 2010.11.15 00:08:00 -
[852]
Yes nerf the ****ing drake.
Drake gangs are so ****ing boring. serious its sooooo boring.
I love you Mang0o, take a guess why -Eris |
Failgun Owner
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Posted - 2010.11.15 03:20:00 -
[853]
Passive shield tanking is too good. Passive shield tanking is OP on ships with 25% resist bonus.
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Markus Reese
Caldari Lorentzian Expeditionaries
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Posted - 2010.11.15 04:38:00 -
[854]
My 2c
The drake, the problem isn't that it passive tanks, or the missiles, or what have you. The problem is it's base shield recharge before any modules are fitted is much higher than any other shield. Reduce base hp by 15% ish and drake will be fine. As for the roving gangs of bcs, that is what they are for. Larger combat still needs the big ships, bs etc. Cruisers seem like support ships to the bcs to me.
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Tandarabrocka
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Posted - 2010.11.15 11:37:00 -
[855]
Originally by: it440
Originally by: Mauricius In my opinion all tier 2 BC should be nerfed. Yes I am serous. I know we all love our harbies drakes and canes but they are just way too OP. Seriously why should you fly a damage boat with insane EHP and and insane DPS for 60 +/- 15 mil totally fully fitted? These days it is hard to win a fight against them even in a decent BS.
You just get 70 percent of BS for 40% of a price. Ridiculous. People don't train BS anymore... Fully fitted Megathron with rigs goes up to 165mil. Hurricane for 75. (insurance included?) There is no way to win against 2 canes if they know what they are doing. Same goes for drakes.
are you talking about the isk efficiency ratio battle? why are so many anal about that? eve would be more enjoyable if the isk efficiency stats were removed.
No I am not talking about isk efficiency only but mainly battle efficiency. Battleships are effectively nerfed with such good hurricanes drakes and harbies (god help Gallente).
In 5 man fights to big blob warfare all BS and all Gallente ships just lost their effectiveness (except maybe the mega).
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.11.15 14:00:00 -
[856]
I think you are playing 'Hello kitty Island adventure' instead of Eve.....
BS will have either: Twice the tank ('cane, haby, bruitx) or Twice the dps (drake)
Myrm is sitting somewhere in the middle. BSes have longer range, larger drone bays e.t.c.
Oh and as far price to effectiveness. T2 ships are only about 30-40% more effective than the T1 versions and cost 10x as much. A much greater imbalance than the supposed BS to BC difference you are quoting. Price isn't meant to have a direct collelation between itself power/usefulness, its an exponential curve and this fits it just right.
I'm not sure about reducing the Drake's buffer size. The thing is the passive recharge is irrelevant in long range fleet fights with logistics as the logis are doing the repping, the passive amount is negligible.
-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Taisuke Black
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Posted - 2010.11.23 23:55:00 -
[857]
This is so ironic.
The reason for the current predicament is the introduction of medium and small rigs. I was so happy to see them when they were introduced, but now I can see they're a mistake. Lowering the rig costs on smaller ships translated into directly making BC's and HAX stronger in comparison to BS's.
With the insurance adjustments, prices are falling all across eve EXCEPT for large rig prices. That's why the BS gang is going extinct in large fleet combat. We need a price increase for medium rigs and a price reduction for large rigs, for starters. Then perhaps heavy launchers could get their damage knocked down 5% or so, that's all it would take.
There are a lot of people in this thread misunderstanding the issue, especially those saying "use better tactics, noob." When two large fleets hit each other, individual actions start to average out and the mass DPS+EHP of the fleets become more prominent. The drake is the only Tier 2 BC whose damage and EHP depend on different slots, which allows it to fit that specific combination MUCH better than any other BC.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.11.24 08:48:00 -
[858]
Originally by: Markus Reese My 2c
The drake, the problem isn't that it passive tanks, or the missiles, or what have you. The problem is it's base shield recharge before any modules are fitted is much higher than any other shield. Reduce base hp by 15% ish and drake will be fine. As for the roving gangs of bcs, that is what they are for. Larger combat still needs the big ships, bs etc. Cruisers seem like support ships to the bcs to me.
If their shield recharge is a problem lower the recharge time dont reduce their buffer
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.11.24 12:36:00 -
[859]
It's not the Drake itself that is a 'problem' you can do basically the same thing with Cerberus
5x HML II 10 MN MWD II, 2x Large Extender II, 1x Photon II, 1x Invul II 2x BCU II, RCU II, named DCU 2x Field Extender I rigs ------------------------ About 60k EHP, ~160 km range with Fury and ~360 dps.
More agile and faster, T2 resists, a bit smaller signature and a bit lower dps.
In my opinion this would work roughly the same as Drake blobs - hell it even would work as a counter to Drake blobs, as it can just dictate range to Drakes and nuke away at them outside their lock range. Nighthawk can do roughly the same as well.
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Darth Pheonix
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Posted - 2010.11.24 14:04:00 -
[860]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Yes, idiots bringing their mission ships passive tank them. PVP fit Drakes on the other hand are buffer fitted. (Did you just not know the difference? Either way you shouldn't even be part of this debate.)
Yeah, they actually are mission/general PVE ships. That's what passive tanking is used for, and the only place it's actually impressive. Good PVP fits do not passive tank.
So why don't you educate on the ****ING difference you overconfident A** CLOWN. "Passive tanking is different from buffer tanking, a-durr." It's the same ****ING thing, you worthless piece of human BULL****.
I guess you just roam space with your 1000000000 man drake fleet and don't want to see your FOTM ship nerfed. Well too bad, ****bag. The need a nerf, they're getting nerfed. Stop ****ing whining. |
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.11.24 15:43:00 -
[861]
Originally by: Darth Pheonix
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Yes, idiots bringing their mission ships passive tank them. PVP fit Drakes on the other hand are buffer fitted. (Did you just not know the difference? Either way you shouldn't even be part of this debate.)
Yeah, they actually are mission/general PVE ships. That's what passive tanking is used for, and the only place it's actually impressive. Good PVP fits do not passive tank.
So why don't you educate on the ****ING difference you overconfident A** CLOWN. "Passive tanking is different from buffer tanking, a-durr." It's the same ****ING thing, you worthless piece of human BULL****.
I guess you just roam space with your 1000000000 man drake fleet and don't want to see your FOTM ship nerfed. Well too bad, ****bag. The need a nerf, they're getting nerfed. Stop ****ing whining.
Calm down, passive tank is different from buffer tanks. A passive tank will have purgers and spr's and rely on its shield recharge to tank things, the buffer version relies on its larger ehp to tank. They are completely different.
Once again ill say drakes dont need nerfing, they only seem good in the massive drake blobs of 0.0 with its lag. In small gang and solo its as good as any of the other tier 2 bc's
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.24 22:24:00 -
[862]
Originally by: Carniflex It's not the Drake itself that is a 'problem' you can do basically the same thing with Cerberus
5x HML II 10 MN MWD II, 2x Large Extender II, 1x Photon II, 1x Invul II 2x BCU II, RCU II, named DCU 2x Field Extender I rigs ------------------------ About 60k EHP, ~160 km range with Fury and ~360 dps.
More agile and faster, T2 resists, a bit smaller signature and a bit lower dps.
In my opinion this would work roughly the same as Drake blobs - hell it even would work as a counter to Drake blobs, as it can just dictate range to Drakes and nuke away at them outside their lock range. Nighthawk can do roughly the same as well.
Umm.. the Cerberus and the Knighthawk are T2 and require large amounts of training time and isk. I think it says a lot that you almost got the Cerberus to be as good as the T1 Drake.
Now do a comparison of the Cerberus and another T1 battlecruiser. Sig ---
Quote: Originally by Oveur: High security empire space is supposed to be quite safe. ... That's the whole point of high security.
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Carniflex
StarHunt R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.11.26 11:29:00 -
[863]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Umm.. the Cerberus and the Knighthawk are T2 and require large amounts of training time and isk. I think it says a lot that you almost got the Cerberus to be as good as the T1 Drake.
Now do a comparison of the Cerberus and another T1 battlecruiser.
In 0.0 warfare skill prerequisites do not stop armor HAC gangs being used as one of the fleet types. Drake blobs in turn are counter to those armor HAC gangs that in turn own fleet battleships that in turn spank Drakes. Isk wise loss of HAC is not a big deal for your regular 0.0 player. It will be replaced with ~3 hours of Anomaly grind. According to latest economic report I have vague memory that 'average' successful player in 0.0 has about 40 mil SP. That is quite enough to fly HAC's and command ships if one so desires.
When tier 2 BC's were introduced there was a lot of lamentation about making HAC's 'obsolete'. As far as Drake itself goes its obvious that one can train for drake a lot faster than to HAC, especially as drake can get away with T1 weapon system while most turret ships need T2 guns to be competitive on the field. So if one wants to do fleets according to one unified doctrine it's easier to sell your members idea that they should train for Drake than it would be to make them all train for Zealot.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.26 12:19:00 -
[864]
Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Umm.. the Cerberus and the Knighthawk are T2 and require large amounts of training time and isk. I think it says a lot that you almost got the Cerberus to be as good as the T1 Drake.
Now do a comparison of the Cerberus and another T1 battlecruiser.
In 0.0 warfare skill prerequisites do not stop armor HAC gangs being used as one of the fleet types. Drake blobs in turn are counter to those armor HAC gangs that in turn own fleet battleships that in turn spank Drakes. Isk wise loss of HAC is not a big deal for your regular 0.0 player. It will be replaced with ~3 hours of Anomaly grind. According to latest economic report I have vague memory that 'average' successful player in 0.0 has about 40 mil SP. That is quite enough to fly HAC's and command ships if one so desires.
When tier 2 BC's were introduced there was a lot of lamentation about making HAC's 'obsolete'. As far as Drake itself goes its obvious that one can train for drake a lot faster than to HAC, especially as drake can get away with T1 weapon system while most turret ships need T2 guns to be competitive on the field. So if one wants to do fleets according to one unified doctrine it's easier to sell your members idea that they should train for Drake than it would be to make them all train for Zealot.
I understand what your saying. However I think factors that makes the drake so popular is that it is cheap, and has low skillpoint requirements, and also that it is comparable to a much more skill intensive and costly ship. This only really applies to the drake, not the same tier battle cruisers of other races. Considering this I think its reasonable to assume then that the drake is somewhat overpowered. And despite players averaging 40 million skillpoints and having lots of isk, they still go for the cheaper, less skill intensive option.
Possibly one reason is the throw-away-ability of losing a drake. Doesn't look so bad on a killmail compared to losing a HAC or a BS. Sig ---
Quote: Originally by Oveur: High security empire space is supposed to be quite safe. ... That's the whole point of high security.
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Kenji Kikuta
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Posted - 2010.11.28 23:14:00 -
[865]
In my oppinion, the problem with the Drake is that it can project huge damage in the range of 50 to 100 km. Sure, there is a delay until the hurt hits the target, but still, it is comparable to (or better than) a BS fighting in this range. This leads to the conclusion that missile range needs to be balanced.
Is it reasonable that a BC, without any range mods, should be able to project huge damage up 50-100 km? The answer is no.
My proposal is to reduce missile range significantly and introduce a new low slot module that boosts missile range and explosion radius or velocity (very much similar to a tracking enhancers for turret weapons).
This way, missile users have to decide, low dps up to a long distance OR high dps up to a short distance. As it should be, and is for turret weapons.
How the exact balancing should be done, I leave that for CCP.
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Bobbeh
Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.11.29 01:37:00 -
[866]
Im really sorry if its already been mentioned, as it was TL DR and i tried my best.
But a Possible solution is the fixing of defender missles. As they are one of the only modules in game that are rarely ever used (as far as ive seen.) Few thoughts on the subject are as follows;
Make them target all hostile missles fire by the ship targetted with them instead of only beable to shoot at missles targeted at you. Reduce their range so they are only effective at protecting a group not a grid. They would be the equivalent of tracking disruption, which can greatly reduce if not negate the damage put out by one ship Make their dps negating ability similar to tracking disruptors. a ship with a higher ROF would suffer less from defenders as they have more missles in flight than can be defended. As a ship with Higher Tracking or rot is less effected by reductions in tracking .
Theres alot that would need to be fixed about them but its just a thought.
The other idea is remove defenders from the game, instead give a mid slot ecm mod that effects missles negatively. Maybe it Screws with their targeting reducing their range, or causes early detonation which reduces their explosive velocity. Each could be scripted or the mod could blanket both for less effect. Would essentially give a counter to missles comparable to the counter to turrets that exists already. Maybe give it to falcons as their secondary ECM skill Because Rapiers have webs and painters Arazus Points/scrams and damps Pilgrims Neuts/nos and Tracking disruptors Falcons ecm and nothing
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.29 01:56:00 -
[867]
Originally by: Kenji Kikuta In my oppinion, the problem with the Drake is that it can project huge damage in the range of 50 to 100 km. Sure, there is a delay until the hurt hits the target, but still, it is comparable to (or better than) a BS fighting in this range. This leads to the conclusion that missile range needs to be balanced.
Is it reasonable that a BC, without any range mods, should be able to project huge damage up 50-100 km? The answer is no.
My proposal is to reduce missile range significantly and introduce a new low slot module that boosts missile range and explosion radius or velocity (very much similar to a tracking enhancers for turret weapons).
This way, missile users have to decide, low dps up to a long distance OR high dps up to a short distance. As it should be, and is for turret weapons.
How the exact balancing should be done, I leave that for CCP.
I agree entirely, Drakes them selves are not OP. Harbingers tank near the same and can be Capboosted and run a Med Neut, Hurricanes are fast and have insane DPS with excellent fitting a duel Neuts and the Myrm may not be the best but can fit any gun type, has a mean tank(active and passive) and deals consderable DPS. Fight a HAM Drake with those and it pretty much comes down to SP and player skill.
The problem is Drake Blobs with Projection and DPS. There long range fits are incredible and something should be done. I don't support a Drake Nerf but do support a Heavy Nerf the same way Harbingers can only do similar Dmg with beams if they use Multi gimping range. I would not like to see a change till Caldari and Minmatar sheild battleships have there place and Sheild Carriers can be used effectively with them.
I am glad Caldari have a fleet ship but I would prefer it be the Raven and Rokh.
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
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Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar Rebirth.
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Posted - 2010.11.29 07:58:00 -
[868]
I like the fix defender missles Idea more than anything right now. drake doesn't get touched, we get a module that works everyone wins. ------------------------------------------------- "Vae Victis" -Brennus |
Mirey Finge
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Posted - 2010.12.03 08:37:00 -
[869]
Originally by: darius mclever uhm ... also the Tier 1 BCs are pretty good when piloted and fitted properly. you might want to take a look on kil2's or garmon's or endless subversion's videos.
and tbh ... in LR BC fleets i would much rather sit in a ferox (resist bonus ftw) than in a brutix or harb. (if there is no drake on sale.)
this
I can't be arsed reading past this. 115km optimal range, enough dps to kill pods, and using the freindly drake blob as a meat shield works for me. Add a target painter and some buffer, ECM drones and possibly a sensor damp to **** with enemy logis and you have a role for the ferox that fits well in a drake blob.
Adjusting the drake because its popular is wrong. Eve will always have a ship thats popular for blobs. I hear NC use titans.
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.12.03 09:53:00 -
[870]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
I agree entirely, Drakes them selves are not OP. Harbingers tank near the same and can be Capboosted and run a Med Neut, Hurricanes are fast and have insane DPS with excellent fitting a duel Neuts and the Myrm may not be the best but can fit any gun type, has a mean tank(active and passive) and deals consderable DPS. Fight a HAM Drake with those and it pretty much comes down to SP and player skill.
Oh please, HAMs fail. Every other close range high DPS weapon type in the game takes LESS fitting power than its long range cousin, yet missiles are the other way around. Why in the hell? Would should pulses be easy to fit and beams take more fitting power when HAMs take more fitting power than HMLs? Fitting a Drake with HAMs while maintaining the tank of its HML cousin is a *****, if not impossible. Leave the Drake AND heavy missiles alone.
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
The problem is Drake Blobs with Projection and DPS. There long range fits are incredible and something should be done. I don't support a Drake Nerf but do support a Heavy Nerf the same way Harbingers can only do similar Dmg with beams if they use Multi gimping range. I would not like to see a change till Caldari and Minmatar sheild battleships have there place and Sheild Carriers can be used effectively with them.
No, the problem with the Drake blob is battleships fail in every form. Bring them back and they'll start eating Drake's again.
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
I am glad Caldari have a fleet ship but I would prefer it be the Raven and Rokh.
I'd rather see EVERY Caldari ship be fleet viable. Kestrels, Merlins, Griffins, Moas, Caracals, Feroxes, Rokhs, Ravens, Scorpions, AND Drakes, not just the two fail battleships. Face it, the Raven will NEVER be good at sniping. Missile DPS just takes way too long to apply itself, especially at the range cruise missiles are meant to function at. The Drake's case is no different over long distances. The Drake is the best when operating inside of 40km. That way the damage delay in minimized. The projection is only good if your target stands there and lets itself die. Logis have forever to get a lock and start rep cycles and the target itself has forever to get into warp. He'll see red boxes light up before he ever starts taking damage.
Don't touch the Drake. Don't touch its range. Don't touch its lock range. Don't touch its weapons. Don't touch its recharge. Don't touch its tank. DON'T TOUCH THE DRAKE.
So it wins at shield tanking... is not CALDARI? Is Caldari not supposed to win at shield tanking? Is Caldari not supposed to win at shield tanking at range?
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.03 09:59:00 -
[871]
Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 03/12/2010 10:06:27
Originally by: Kai Yuen Oh please, HAMs fail. Every other close range high DPS weapon type in the game takes LESS fitting power than its long range cousin, yet missiles are the other way around. Why in the hell? Would should pulses be easy to fit and beams take more fitting power when HAMs take more fitting power than HMLs? Fitting a Drake with HAMs while maintaining the tank of its HML cousin is a *****, if not impossible. Leave the Drake AND heavy missiles alone.
This...
So much this. My Tech II, 425 Cane fits like a glove w/o AWU. But good forebid I want to fit a HAM Drake. Compare the fitting on Heavies next to Arties or Rails or Beams.
Hell try fitting any Battlecruiser or Cruiser as well as with Autocannons.
Originally by: Kai Yuen
Face it, the Raven will NEVER be good at sniping. Missile DPS just takes way too long to apply itself, especially at the range cruise missiles are meant to function at.
I always hoped they would allow it to be an effective Fleet Torp Boat. You know, 7 Mids, 4 Lows no need of that stupid RCU and spider tankable.
But Torps are meh in the current battlefeild anyway.
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
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fuxinos
Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2010.12.03 15:35:00 -
[872]
Edited by: fuxinos on 03/12/2010 15:36:00
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Originally by: Kai Yuen
Face it, the Raven will NEVER be good at sniping. Missile DPS just takes way too long to apply itself, especially at the range cruise missiles are meant to function at.
I always hoped they would allow it to be an effective Fleet Torp Boat. You know, 7 Mids, 4 Lows no need of that stupid RCU and spider tankable.
But Torps are meh in the current battlefeild anyway.
Raven is meh, Caldari is meh, missiles are meh.
The only ships Caldari has, that are realy worth something, are Drakes and Falcs.
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YoRiKoJi
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Posted - 2010.12.03 16:52:00 -
[873]
TBH, they really should nerf the drake. I mean honestly, look at the friggin OP omfgwtfpwnyourfacemobile. It's one of 2 or 3 ships which pretty much everyone agrees is a usable Caldari PVP ship (debates more likely for others). FFS, 3 usable pvp ships for Caldari? definitely cannot support that because Caldari would be so OP.
p.s. Pretty much everyone agrees the Rifter is THE frigate to use vs. others t1 frigates... why don't they nerf it since it is easily the best t1 frig? (rhetorical question which means it doesn't need an answer).
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2010.12.03 17:01:00 -
[874]
Edited by: Ulstan on 03/12/2010 17:02:04 The difference between the rifter and other T1 frigs is greater than that between Drake and other BCs
The difference between dramiel and other frig class ships is orders of magnitude greater than that between Drake and other BCs.
The difference between rupture and other cruiers (like moa and omen) is orders of magnitude greater than that between Drake and other BCs.
The difference between good HACS and fail HACS like the eagle and diemos are orders of magnitude greater than that between Drake and other BCs.
So why pick on the Drake? There are many glaring examples of ship imbalance that deserve attention far more. The BC class is well balanced. Each is better at certain things. Unsurprisingly, the shield tanking ship from the race that excels at shield tanking and fleet fights does best in a shield tanking fleet.
Why should the Drake be nerfed? It's not overpowered compared to other BCs, doesn't render them obsolete.
If it shows up 'too much' in blob fights, that's because of the mechanics induced by heavy lag and the fact that no one flies battleships, which are the natural counter to slow, high sig BC's like the drake. (note that other, faster BC's like the hurricane can sig tank BS damage somewhat, but not the drake).
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Hellaciouss
Genco
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Posted - 2010.12.03 17:17:00 -
[875]
Originally by: Solid Star There are sooo many factors which contribute to how good a ship is. At the end of the day the closest you can get to determine how good a ship is would be to look at how many people pvp with the ship. So I go and check the eve-kill killboard (pulls from thousands of KBs) and I was surprised at how the Drake just dominates the the other ships in kills. I remember when the falcon was on top (then nerfed) and vaga was on top (then nerfed), but neither came ever came even close to the existing drake numbers.
Rank / Ship / Kills 1 Drake 196690 2 Hurricane 77399 3 Zealot 73885 4 Megathron 35232 5 Vagabond 34021 6 Harbinger 29020 7 Tempest 28938 8 Armageddon 23182 9 Apocalypse 22094 10 Muninn 21658
Only 1 Caldari ship in that list. 4 Mini, 4 Amarr, 1 Gall. That is the real problem. When you only have 1 ship that is decent, people tend to only fly that one ship.
Lets take it a step farther and list the top 20.
Quote: RankShipsKills 1 Drake 303450 2 Hurricane 102687 3 Zealot 68068 4 Megathron 62032 5 Tempest 55278 6 Abaddon 52041 7 Apocalypse 44472 8 Vagabond 34046 9 Harbinger 32741 10 Armageddon 28430 11 Dramiel 24344 12 Hound 22538 13 Sabre 21711 14 Rapier 21670 15 Manticore 18979 16 Scimitar 18196 17 Muninn 17308 18 Loki 16261 19 Maelstrom 14670 20 Cynabal 14514
2 Caldari Ships, 10 Mini (not including the 2 faction frigs), 5 Amarr, 1 Gallente.
Seem Caldari and Gallente are in need of buffs, not nerfs. The Drake is the only decent ship Caldari has for pvp, and if it wasn't for the Mega's power in sniping roles, Gallente would have no ships in the top 20. That is sad.
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.12.04 01:55:00 -
[876]
Originally by: Hellaciouss
2 Caldari Ships, 10 Mini (not including the 2 faction frigs), 5 Amarr, 1 Gallente.
Seem Caldari and Gallente are in need of buffs, not nerfs. The Drake is the only decent ship Caldari has for pvp, and if it wasn't for the Mega's power in sniping roles, Gallente would have no ships in the top 20. That is sad.
TWO Caldari ships? What madness is this? Oh wow, it's the Manticore. No surprise there. The fact that the vexor AND the myrm did not make that list is very surprising and incredibly sad. Even drone boats are becoming obsolete. Gallente continue their slide down to failness. Even Caldari have more ships on the list. Seriously, the Drake needs to be left alone. So it owns at shield tanking and is thus the #1 choice for the shield fleet. Boohoo. That's what we call balance. Harbs have a better armor tank, hurricanes have better DPS and speed, and Myrm's fail cause you have to fit autos on them and their bonuses are for active tanking. Sounds to me like we need to buff Gallente and Caldari, rather than pick on the only decent Caldari ship. |
Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.04 02:17:00 -
[877]
Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 04/12/2010 02:17:23
That list is number of times they appear on a mail and suprise missile spam makes the distance but in actual kill mails gotten by the ship the Hurricane rules small gang warfare.
Q3 Report on killmails by ship.
1 Hurricane 29,346 2 Drake 24,012 3 Vagabond 13,296 4 Zealot 11,800 5 Sabre 10,919 6 Harbinger 10,888 7 Dramiel 8,675 8 Rifter 6,350 9 Cynabal 6,139 10 Thrasher 4,773 11 Tempest 4,468 12 Megathron 4,207 13 Rupture 4,061 14 Armageddon 4,039 15 Hound 3,962 16 Myrmidon 3,831 17 Abaddon 3,668 18 Loki 3,622 19 Manticore 3,622 20 Tengu 3,611
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
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Solid Prefekt
Haven Front
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Posted - 2010.12.04 03:44:00 -
[878]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 04/12/2010 02:17:23
That list is number of times they appear on a mail and suprise missile spam makes the distance but in actual kill mails gotten by the ship the Hurricane rules small gang warfare.
Q3 Report on killmails by ship.
1 Hurricane 29,346 2 Drake 24,012 3 Vagabond 13,296
The report does NOT list how many times they are listed on the killmail. The report says which ship GETS the actual KILLMAIL in their inbox. So if the 350 man Drake fleet gets one kill it shows as one drake kill in the above stats. You have to be ******ed if you are think that more people pvp in the Hurricane over the Drake. You don't see 350 man Hurricane fleets or even a 50 man Hurricane fleet.
Someone brought up the point that Caldari does not have many pvp options. Would the drake lovers be happy if they nerfed the Drake and at the same time buffed other Caldari ships so they now had more options?
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.04 04:01:00 -
[879]
The drake doesn't need a nerf though. That's the point. The only reason it is used currently so much is because all the pussies who hide their BS fleets in station because they wet themselves when mommies show up. Or AHACs. Unfortunately CCP does not seem to care that the game of rock paper scissors has been missing paper for some time.
Bring back BS fleets and you will have a decline in drake and other BC fleets. You have got to be kidding yourself if you don't think people fly shield canes in shield fleets. Hell they bring shield myrms and harbs too. It just so happens the 0.0 fleets are made up mostly of "cool carebears" who don't know how to PVP they just blob and out number you 20:1. At that point it doesn't matter what you are fighting. These awesome sov holders are carebears they mine and pick up goo. But you **** with a hulk they blob you with the best ship they have the mission/plex/sanctum/WH running drakes.
Look at what a well organized AHAC fleet can do to them, or a well organized BC fleet. This isn't an OP ship its a numbers fight. As a lowsec pirate I have yet to see a 300 man drake blob. But I have seen 40 man shield gangs, made up of drakes,myrms,canes,harbs,scims. 0.0 is hardly a representation of the game, its a bunch of carebears with big toys who lose so many ships it isn't funny.
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.04 04:06:00 -
[880]
Originally by: Solid Prefekt The report does NOT list how many times they are listed on the killmail. The report says which ship GETS the actual KILLMAIL in their inbox. So if the 350 man Drake fleet gets one kill it shows as one drake kill in the above stats. You have to be ******ed if you are think that more people pvp in the Hurricane over the Drake. You don't see 350 man Hurricane fleets or even a 50 man Hurricane fleet.
Well duh the cane still gets more mails because you don't need a large fleet to use them effectively. Even if there is 300 Drakes on the Mail it is still one ship killed. Not only that but the Drake is also Caldari's small gang ship, so that includes HAM Drakes. Canes are used more in PVP just not in Blobs.
Originally by: Solid Prefekt
Someone brought up the point that Caldari does not have many pvp options. Would the drake lovers be happy if they nerfed the Drake and at the same time buffed other Caldari ships so they now had more options?
Yes, that is pretty much our only concern, that and not nerfing the small gang fit.
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
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Hellaciouss
Genco
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Posted - 2010.12.04 19:37:00 -
[881]
Originally by: Solid Prefekt
Someone brought up the point that Caldari does not have many pvp options. Would the drake lovers be happy if they nerfed the Drake and at the same time buffed other Caldari ships so they now had more options?
Um no. Drake stays where it's at, it's perfectly balanced with all other tier 2 BC hulls. You would nerf drake into mediocrity and buff the others to the same mediocrity. The Drake is FINE, the only reason there are so many is 1) There are more Caldari in the game then any other race and 2) it's the only good ship caldari really have for PvP. If other caldari ships were buffed to be decent there would be no reason for EVERYONE to jump in a drake, and the drakes numbers would fall.
Once again, the drake is perfectly fine, it's just that other caldari ships need a buff so people will use them. Buff gallente too. Having only 1 ship in the top twenty, and that being a mega, simply because of it's sniper power is very sad balancing on CCP's part.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2010.12.04 23:09:00 -
[882]
Originally by: Solid Prefekt Someone brought up the point that Caldari does not have many pvp options. Would the drake lovers be happy if they nerfed the Drake and at the same time buffed other Caldari ships so they now had more options?
The Drake doesn't need nerfing, because it's not overpowered. If people are tired of seeing caldari only flying drakes, the solution is to make more caldari ships worth a damn in PvP (the entire railgun class is fail - in fact, just about everything before the drake is fail except in very specific circumstances).
The solution to 350 man drake fleets is to start seeing people flying 350 man BS fleets around. But you don't see that. Why? Hint: It has nothing to do with the drake.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2010.12.04 23:22:00 -
[883]
Look at it this way: you could nerf the **** out of the drake and you would still see nothing but drake blobs, because the reason you see drake blobs is because of underlying game mechanics and not because the drake is 5% overpowered compared to other BCs.
I think given the state of DD's, super carriers, probing, the effect of lag on missiles and cap, the way shield logistics work vs armor logistics, the preferences for drakes can be entirely explained.
Do you think cutting the drakes' damage by 10% would remove drake blobs? I don't. And 10% is a significant nerf. Do you think reducing drake's shields by 10% would remove drake blobs? I don't, and again, 10% is a significant nerf. That's because drakes are being flown so much because of underlying factors and the actual stats of the drake (which are NOT overpowered) are mostly secondary.
Fleet fights are about buffer and big alpha. Shield logistics repair instantly, armor logistics do not. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to realize that the ship with the biggest shield buffer is going to be favored.
That doesn't make the ship with the biggest shield buffer overpowered, obviously. It's a problem with the mechanics, not the ship. If the drake was nerfed so that it no longer had the biggest shield buffer, some other ship would take it's place. Maybe something that does even worse dps like a heavy missile ferox.
Remember, these fleets in high lag where missile delay doesn't matter, and shield logistics are plentiful, are the absolute best case for drakes. They should do well there. If they don't do well there, they aren't going to do well anywhere. Anything that made people not want to use the shield tanking BC from the fleet race for shield tanking fleets would mean the ship was essentially dead.
I think fleets of Drakes backed up by shield logisitics should be a big threat to AHACS. They should be defeated by battleships but no one flies huge battleship fleets anymore for a variety of reasons. Some of those can and should be addressed.
I think logistics can and should also be addressed. Armor just can't compete with shield in these situations when it reps at the end and shield at the beginning. They both need to rep at the same place. The differences between armor tanking and shield tanking are myriad, such that shield boosters happening at once and armor reps happening at the end seem to work out fairly well - there are enough other tradeofs to counter it.
But when you abstract to a whole fleet fight, shield repping vs armor repping is basically the same, except one happens right away and one happens after along delay - in an environment where every second counts.
When the only fleets you see are drakes/scimitars, I think it's fair to ask why the scim is the only logistics being flown, if you are also going to ask why the drake is the only BC being flown.
If they upped the viability of BS, and made shield reps rep at the end of the cycle instead of the beginning (with a commensurate reduction in the cpu/energy requirements perhaps) I think that would go a long way towards reducing the number of drake fleets out there and have created a better environment than simply slashing the drake's shields 50% or whatever would cause. (Oh and maybe we could have a few more viable shield tanked pvp battleships?)
Your problem is *not* that the Drake is a good ship for a fleet built around shield tanking battlecruisers: Your problem is that no one wants to fly fleets that are armor tanking battlecruisers and/or battleships.
TL:DR: Nerfing the drake will make it useless to fly in all situations *except* blobby 0.0 warfare, where it will still be overpowered, as long as shield logistics are preferable to armor logistics and as long as no one flies battleship fleets
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.12.06 03:12:00 -
[884]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 04/12/2010 02:17:23
That list is number of times they appear on a mail and suprise missile spam makes the distance but in actual kill mails gotten by the ship the Hurricane rules small gang warfare.
Q3 Report on killmails by ship.
1 Hurricane 29,346 2 Drake 24,012 3 Vagabond 13,296 4 Zealot 11,800 5 Sabre 10,919 6 Harbinger 10,888 7 Dramiel 8,675 8 Rifter 6,350 9 Cynabal 6,139 10 Thrasher 4,773 11 Tempest 4,468 12 Megathron 4,207 13 Rupture 4,061 14 Armageddon 4,039 15 Hound 3,962 16 Myrmidon 3,831 17 Abaddon 3,668 18 Loki 3,622 19 Manticore 3,622 20 Tengu 3,611
Here's my reply from another thread:
Originally by: Kai Yuen
More Drakes appear on the killmail and more hurricanes collect the actual mail. This is easily explainable.
Observe: Hurricanes hit harder and more common in small gangs, thus more likely to cash in on the final blow. Drake fleets number in the 20s-30s at least, sometimes 60+ and they don't alpha things, so there's plenty of time for everyone to ninja on the mail, thus when drake fleets get a kill EVERYONE gets on it, even if it's just a poor solo who happened to make a wrong turn. That doesn't mean the Drake is overpowered. That's a huge leap in conclusions when there are so many scenarios which only indicate that Drakes travel in larger packs than Hurricanes.
So what? It takes more Drakes to get something done and it takes less Hurricanes to form a good fleet. 60+ ppl on 1 km vs 5 ppl on 5kms. That doesn't look like OPness to me, in fact it COULD indicate that the Drake is in fact underpowered since it takes so many to form an effective fleet. Either conclusion is premature given that the only data collected shows how many ships appear on killmails and how many ships collect them. Nothing can be said for which ship actually performs better.
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Br1ck Vader
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Posted - 2010.12.10 21:58:00 -
[885]
I agree the drake is a little OP but it only really shines in shield fleets, if i was Caldari i wouldnt feel too amazed at my possible pvp lineup so i say let them have the drake. Its not like they cant be taken down just use tactics and step up the game to the next level.
Also nothing wrong with gallente (well maybe a little) but people arnt flying them right, if you can get a warp in u you can really tear s**t up. Lots of newer players are joining the game and not making the most out of the way a sandbox game like eve should be played.
The tools are there, if you're not using them properly then thats up to you
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Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.12.10 22:55:00 -
[886]
The only thing that makes Drakes superior to others is 3x shield extender rigs for 9 mil
Compare the ships without rigs, or even with different rigs, and they start looking pretty balanced.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.11 02:26:00 -
[887]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
You letting them figth on their terms and complain they win? You need to force them into YOUR terms. Sensor dampen them, and land blasterthrons on top of them. Then you will be playing by your terms. Drakes usually are not exactly the best BC against a short Range battleship since they cannot even keep range of a gallente or minmatar battleship.
^^ This. The whine about the Drake is pathetic, really. --
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Nevryn Takis
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Posted - 2010.12.11 13:19:00 -
[888]
There's to much to read the whole thread but from reading the early stuff it appears the only reason to want to nerf the drake is because of 1 or 2 large scale fleet fights per month. That's not a reason... I don't have the skills to fly T2 cruisers and above. The drake is a great mission runner, all L3's and some L4's but anything with T2 web/scram frigates and you have serious issues, especially if you can't use T2 drones. In addition some of the bonus rooms like Angel Extrav seriously push the drake for an average pilot. I also scan and run anomalies and the drake is just crap for these, my cyclone is much better. So it appears the drake is being nerfed just to counter 1 problem and punish 90% of the players that use them..
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.11 15:12:00 -
[889]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 11/12/2010 15:13:48 My answer now is "Yes, Drakes need to be nerfed." When my CEO says "I see no reason to fly anything else", then it's time to bring out the nerf bat.
They have filtered into solo ships, and small low sec nano*** gangs - namely my corporation. It is sad that my Gallente FW corp (and all of our ally corps) has settled on using a gay Caldari nano*** ship, but tbh I can't really blame them with the state of Gallente ships nowadays.
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Dengen Krastinov
Amarr Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.12.12 23:26:00 -
[890]
Absolutely no to the drake nerf idea. Drakes are not overpowered. Buff BS viability in laggy fleet fights and change how logistics work and the drake will be effectively indirectly nerfed.
Do NOT directly nerf it because that only harms the solo pvpers , like myself, that love drakes.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2010.12.13 01:36:00 -
[891]
Originally by: X Gallentius
My answer now is "Yes, Drakes need to be nerfed." When my CEO says "I see no reason to fly anything else", then it's time to bring out the nerf bat.
He'll still be saying "I see no reason to fly anything else" He'll just be talking about a different ship.
When you have rock < paper < scissors < rock, and suddenly you make rock not worth flying (BS fleets) scissors will appear overpowered. Afterall, they always beat paper! But nerfing scissors so that paper beats scissors will change nothing. You need to unnerf rock to fix this problem.
You have to address the underlying problems, not randomly nerf the drake (which is not overpowered compared to other BC's)
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.12.13 01:42:00 -
[892]
Edited by: darius mclever on 13/12/2010 01:42:18
Originally by: Ulstan When you have rock < paper < scissors < rock, and suddenly you make rock not worth flying (BS fleets) scissors will appear overpowered. Afterall, they always beat paper! But nerfing scissors so that paper beats scissors will change nothing. You need to unnerf rock to fix this problem.
this must be the reason why you see lots of maelstroms and apocs in fleets now.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.13 03:32:00 -
[893]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 13/12/2010 03:35:15 ------------------------ [Myrmidon, ] Gyrostab II x 3 TE II x 2 DC II
Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead x 6
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I x 3
Hammerhead II x5 --------------------------------
-------------------------------- [Hurricane, ] Gyrostabilizer II x 3 DC II Nanofiber Internal Structure II x 2
Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead x 6 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Torrent Assault Missile x 2
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I x 3
Warrior II x1 Valkyrie II x1 --------------------------
-------------------------- [Prophecy, ] Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II Heat Sink II x 2 Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Warp Scrambler II 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Dark Blood Radio M x 6
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I x 2 Medium Energy Collision Accelerator I
Warrior II x1 -------------------------------------- --------------------------------------
[Drake,] Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II x 2
Invulnerability Field II x 2 Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thunderbolt Heavy Missile x 7
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I x 3
Warrior II x5 -------------------------
Drake vs Prophecy
EHP Drake +10,000 DPS Drake +150 (realistically prophecy cannot hit the drake at 70k while drake hits for full damage)
Drake vs Myrmidon
EHP Drake + 19,000 DPS Drake equal damage (realistically myrmidon cannot hit the drake at 70k while drake hits for full damage)
Drake vs Hurricane
EHP Drake +40,000 DPS Drake equal damage (realistically Hurricane cannot hit the drake at 70k while drake hits for full damage)
Since at the range the drake fights, it does full damage, while negating all damage from other battlecruisers, since it has from 10,000 to 40,000 or 50% more EHP on all other battlecruisers, I think it definitely qualifies as overpowered.
The OP aspect is purely range based. Remove its ability to do 100% dps at 75k and its no longer OP. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.12.13 05:10:00 -
[894]
I love the Drake.
The problem is, so does everybody else.
|24 Hour Plex|Mining Makeover| |
Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.13 06:43:00 -
[895]
LOL I can not believe this thread is still alive.
Also to the recent EFT hero. Put a drake in short range and compare the ships then . Ii do not understand why you are comparing apples to oranges. As the range shortens all the other BC's DPS increases. Most Notably the myrm. Why bother entering the drakes range at all. Kite them out and kill their tackle. Then warp off. Or get a cloaky to get you a warp in right on top of the drake fleet. Or a Dramiel or something else insanely fast that a drake will not hit for ****.
I mean seriously its not hard to counter.
1. You Kite directly opposite the drakes, decreasing their effective range proportionate to what your speed is. @ 1K MS that is a loss of 12KM on a drakes initial firing range.
2. You destroy any of their close range tackle with your superior close range weapons.
3. ????.
4. Profit.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.13 09:13:00 -
[896]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 13/12/2010 09:14:33
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider LOL I can not believe this thread is still alive.
Also to the recent EFT hero. Put a drake in short range and compare the ships then . Ii do not understand why you are comparing apples to oranges. As the range shortens all the other BC's DPS increases. Most Notably the myrm. Why bother entering the drakes range at all. Kite them out and kill their tackle. Then warp off. Or get a cloaky to get you a warp in right on top of the drake fleet. Or a Dramiel or something else insanely fast that a drake will not hit for ****.
I mean seriously its not hard to counter.
1. You Kite directly opposite the drakes, decreasing their effective range proportionate to what your speed is. @ 1K MS that is a loss of 12KM on a drakes initial firing range.
2. You destroy any of their close range tackle with your superior close range weapons.
3. ????.
4. Profit.
EFT is a lot more reliable then 'the drake is fine'.
You might want to get some reading comprehension since you basically said exactly what I said at the end of my post.
As for your 'suggestions' they're quite stupid in the context of this thread. Warping off? Short range ships kiting long range ships that aren't noticeably slower? Tackle solutions? This might work if the other side doesn't have tackle of their own negating your own tackles effects but how likely is that?
Now I know you like your drake and don't want to see it nerfed but the fact is its overpowered and your solutions are impracticable and even if they did work 50% of the time which I doubt, the ship still remains OP, hence the existence of your 'solutions' to its OP'ness. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.13 10:01:00 -
[897]
LOL @ Infinity.
Boost drakes, since HAM drakes cant hit my beam harb they are terrible. And drakes cannot have the diversity of my myrm, so they are terrible. Aditionally drakes cannot alpha aproaching ceptors, so they are horrible. Also they have delayed damage, remove that. Also they are terribly slow, i want to be able to nanofit my drake.
Does every BC really needs to perform equally well in every possible situation? If so, then just remove 3 of them and keep one.
Drake is best BC for long range dps projection, but it is definatley not the best in other situations. And since that drake gets eaten alive by a abaddon you can wonder how useful that long range dps projection exactly is.
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Sir Drake
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Posted - 2010.12.13 10:41:00 -
[898]
Leave the drakes alone and give the rest some decent anti-missile weapons (and dont give me that smartbomb/defender BS) that should level the field nicely.
------------------------------------------------------- Sig was removed due to derogatory comments towards a group of people. -Karl Chroimcer
I like that.
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.12.13 11:37:00 -
[899]
Edited by: Aerilis on 13/12/2010 11:46:05
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider Put a drake in short range and compare the ships then
Close range tank'n'spank HAM Drake does 613 DPS with a 86k EHP tank, while still having a point and web. That non-overheated and no implants. It's not OP, but it CERTAINLY isn't weaker than other BCs when it comes to close range combat.
Originally by: Furb Killer HAM drakes cant hit my beam harb they are terrible.
Yes, it is totally unfair that a ship with short range weapons can't hit your ship that has long range weapons.
Originally by: Furb Killer drakes cannot have the diversity of my myrm, so they are terrible.
Diversity? Who needs diversity when you can do it all with just one or two fits? A HML Drake can successfully fight against gangs of nearly any ship composition, from wolfpack frigates to battleship blobs to hac/recon gangs.
Originally by: Furb Killer Aditionally drakes cannot alpha aproaching ceptors, so they are horrible.
No, but once they are in web range, suddenly they're not going very fast anymore and they have 500% more sig radius... you go figure how they'll react to missiles.
Originally by: Furb Killer Also they have delayed damage, remove that.
Only weakness Drake has. They have to wait a whopping 4 seconds while fighting at the edge of point range, and 10 seconds in long range slug fests before damage reaches their target. Compare this to the 20 second delay you get from a single jam cycle.
Originally by: Furb Killer Also they are terribly slow, i want to be able to nanofit my drake.
Lol? Try searching for nano-drakes, they are INCREDIBLY potent. Standard nano fit goes 1228 m/s, 1739 m/s overheated. I personally know many pilots who prefer the nano-drake over the nano-cane. I can provide battle summaries of a couple nano drakes raping 20-man fleets if you like, but I'm too lazy to dig them up.
Originally by: Furb Killer Does every BC really needs to perform equally well in every possible situation? If so, then just remove 3 of them and keep one.
No, but one of them shouldn't perform the best in 90% of situations.
Originally by: Furb Killer Drake is best BC for long range dps projection, but it is definatley not the best in other situations.
I believe I have proven you wrong here.
Originally by: Furb Killer And since that drake gets eaten alive by a abaddon you can wonder how useful that long range dps projection exactly is.
Because comparing BC's to BS's is fair. And a HML Drake will be able to outrange a Scorch Abaddon unless it has TE's fit. It's Apocs you have to worry about.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2010.12.13 12:46:00 -
[900]
Originally by: Aerilis
Originally by: Furb Killer Aditionally drakes cannot alpha aproaching ceptors, so they are horrible.
No, but once they are in web range, suddenly they're not going very fast anymore and they have 500% more sig radius... you go figure how they'll react to missiles.
Your not going to come close to alphaing even a webbed ceptor with its mwd on, even in web range you will see a huge damage reduction
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.13 13:24:00 -
[901]
How would ceptors have 500% more sig radius in web range?
Anyway short range drake vs long range beam comparison was only because infinity made exactly the same comparison (he even equipped a myrm with ACs with faction long range ammo, lol @ long range ammo in ACs). Drakes are nowhere near the best choice in 90% of the cases. For nano action i take a cane every day over a drake. For instapopping approaching frigs i take a cane / binger any day over a drake. For versatility the myrmidon is just way superior.
What the drake is very good at is just raw tank * gank. This has a role, but definately not the only role. And you can stuck your head in the sand and act like there are no other ships, but there are other ships. At this tank * gank role they are completely outperformed against a competent BS fleet. Which is why still more 0.0 alliances use the BS as backbone of their fleet than drakes.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.13 13:45:00 -
[902]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 13/12/2010 13:46:42
Originally by: Furb Killer How would ceptors have 500% more sig radius in web range?
Anyway short range drake vs long range beam comparison was only because infinity made exactly the same comparison (he even equipped a myrm with ACs with faction long range ammo, lol @ long range ammo in ACs). Drakes are nowhere near the best choice in 90% of the cases. For nano action i take a cane every day over a drake. For instapopping approaching frigs i take a cane / binger any day over a drake. For versatility the myrmidon is just way superior.
What the drake is very good at is just raw tank * gank. This has a role, but definately not the only role. And you can stuck your head in the sand and act like there are no other ships, but there are other ships. At this tank * gank role they are completely outperformed against a competent BS fleet. Which is why still more 0.0 alliances use the BS as backbone of their fleet than drakes.
I didn't equip them, they were top rated fits on battleclinic. As for the ammo type, it was simply to show that even with the longest range ammo, you still can't hit the hml drake. Equipping short range ammo would have been even more futile at 70k
Also comparing drakes to BS is kindof proving the point of them being overpowered dont you think? --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.12.13 14:06:00 -
[903]
Originally by: Furb Killer How would ceptors have 500% more sig radius in web range?
Anyway short range drake vs long range beam comparison was only because infinity made exactly the same comparison (he even equipped a myrm with ACs with faction long range ammo, lol @ long range ammo in ACs). Drakes are nowhere near the best choice in 90% of the cases. For nano action i take a cane every day over a drake. For instapopping approaching frigs i take a cane / binger any day over a drake. For versatility the myrmidon is just way superior.
What the drake is very good at is just raw tank * gank. This has a role, but definately not the only role. And you can stuck your head in the sand and act like there are no other ships, but there are other ships. At this tank * gank role they are completely outperformed against a competent BS fleet. Which is why still more 0.0 alliances use the BS as backbone of their fleet than drakes.
Sorry, I forgot about the sig radius bonus ceptors have with MWD's. But a nano drake will have two webs, and a Drake gang will have more than one Drake... but fine, I'm happy to concede that the cane makes a better anti-ceptor ship than the Drake.
However, I'm not willing to concede that the only thing the Drake does well is tank*gank. You say you'll take a nano cane over a nano drake any day, but that is personal preference, not a measure of the power of those setups. I do not fly Drakes due to principle, but if you'd like I can arrange a 1v1 with your nano cane against one of my buddies nano drakes if you like.
As for the myrm and versatility, I can think of only one situation where it would perform better than the Drake - being swarmed by frigates at 0km.
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits.
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Posted - 2010.12.13 14:09:00 -
[904]
Edited by: Korg Leaf on 13/12/2010 14:09:30 Nano cane or drake arent built for going 1v1 on each other, they are built for landing near a gang killing some stuff then getting out, and in that situation the nano cane excels as it can hit the smaller ships much harder which makes it easier to avoid scrams.
A 1v1 between a nano drake and nano cane becomes a tank/gank fight not a fight about which is the better nano ship
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:37:00 -
[905]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Also comparing drakes to BS is kindof proving the point of them being overpowered dont you think?
Not at all. They should be compared to BS because BS fleets are what is supposed to counter BC fleets of ships with nice juicy huge sigs that BS weapons can hit for full damage.
BS fleets smash drake fleets just fine. More gank, more tank, more range. But people don't fly BS fleets for other reasons.
And that's the problem. Not the drake, which is not in the least overpowered compared to the other BC's. They all have useful and well defined roles to fill. Only one that I think needs help is the Myrmidon. Harbinger and Hurricane are truly awesome and amazing ships.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.13 20:32:00 -
[906]
Originally by: Ulstan
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Also comparing drakes to BS is kindof proving the point of them being overpowered dont you think?
Not at all. They should be compared to BS because BS fleets are what is supposed to counter BC fleets of ships with nice juicy huge sigs that BS weapons can hit for full damage.
BS fleets smash drake fleets just fine. More gank, more tank, more range. But people don't fly BS fleets for other reasons.
And that's the problem. Not the drake, which is not in the least overpowered compared to the other BC's. They all have useful and well defined roles to fill. Only one that I think needs help is the Myrmidon. Harbinger and Hurricane are truly awesome and amazing ships.
What your missing is you need BS fleet to counter drake fleets because the other 3 BC's have no hope of even hitting the drake for any damage at the drakes 70km range, while the drake can hit them for full damage at that range. The hurricane can close and get in range but in the time it takes for it to do that, its taking full damage from the drake and has half the EHP. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.13 21:50:00 -
[907]
Stop being a ****** and playing a range game with drakes then. Get a fast small ship that drakes can't hit for **** to get a warp in right on top of them. Get a cloaky ship to get a warp in right on top of them. Kill their tackle and warp away from them.
Trying to sit at range and snipe missile chuckers is stupid they will just tank you all day long.
If you or your FC can't figure that out, then you should not be PVPing. Its a simple concept. Stop letting other people dictate terms. I garuntee if you take a nano/gank cane fleet with logi and park yourself in the middle of the drake fleet you will kill far more than you lose.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.14 04:46:00 -
[908]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider Stop being a ****** and playing a range game with drakes then. Get a fast small ship that drakes can't hit for **** to get a warp in right on top of them. Get a cloaky ship to get a warp in right on top of them. Kill their tackle and warp away from them.
Trying to sit at range and snipe missile chuckers is stupid they will just tank you all day long.
If you or your FC can't figure that out, then you should not be PVPing. Its a simple concept. Stop letting other people dictate terms. I garuntee if you take a nano/gank cane fleet with logi and park yourself in the middle of the drake fleet you will kill far more than you lose.
That doesn't solve the imbalance its just a way around the imbalance. This is about drakes being OP not fleet tactics. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.12.14 07:07:00 -
[909]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
That doesn't solve the imbalance its just a way around the imbalance. This is about drakes being OP not fleet tactics.
Anything's OP when you fight it out of your element and firmly in theirs. Look at Angel ships. They dominate the small gang world, especially Dramiel's, and Machariels are sniping gods, yet you don't see thread upon thread dedicated to just them. The only real imbalance is the ratio of shield to armor tankers in EVE and the viability of the BCs natural predator, the battleship.
In terms of t2 BCs, the Drake is the one and only shield tank. Everything else was clearly designed for armor, so of course when it comes to a shield fleet you'd take the only shield tank available. Combine that with the sudden decline in battleships and now you have a ship class with nothing above it on the food chain. Doesn't sound like said ship class is to blame. It's a symptom of the problem, not the source. Nerfing the symptoms is like cutting off your head because you have a head ache. A purely impulsive and premature decision, not to mention fatal.
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sian miller
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Posted - 2010.12.14 07:35:00 -
[910]
Nerf the cargo bay to 400m3.
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.12.14 13:12:00 -
[911]
Originally by: Kai Yuen
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
That doesn't solve the imbalance its just a way around the imbalance. This is about drakes being OP not fleet tactics.
Anything's OP when you fight it out of your element and firmly in theirs. Look at Angel ships. They dominate the small gang world, especially Dramiel's, and Machariels are sniping gods, yet you don't see thread upon thread dedicated to just them. The only real imbalance is the ratio of shield to armor tankers in EVE and the viability of the BCs natural predator, the battleship.
In terms of t2 BCs, the Drake is the one and only shield tank. Everything else was clearly designed for armor, so of course when it comes to a shield fleet you'd take the only shield tank available. Combine that with the sudden decline in battleships and now you have a ship class with nothing above it on the food chain. Doesn't sound like said ship class is to blame. It's a symptom of the problem, not the source. Nerfing the symptoms is like cutting off your head because you have a head ache. A purely impulsive and premature decision, not to mention fatal.
Angel ships are expensive, skill intensive(piloting skill and SP), and can be neuted and TD'd. These things are what you would call "counters", and all of these things can be done very easily with much cheaper ships. Paper will beat Angel's rock, but the only way to beat a Drake's rock is with... two rocks.
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.14 13:46:00 -
[912]
Originally by: Aerilis
Angel ships are expensive, skill intensive(piloting skill and SP), and can be neuted and TD'd. These things are what you would call "counters", and all of these things can be done very easily with much cheaper ships. Paper will beat Angel's rock, but the only way to beat a Drake's rock is with... two rocks.
Yes Angel Ships do happen to die when you build your set up specifically around killing angel ships. Oops, did I say die, I meant escape because the only thing that can catch them before they leave is a Rapier.
The only way to beat a Drakes Rock huh, well the Harbinger will do it at close range, so will the active Myrm, at long range, pick a Battleship any Battleship. The other battlecruisers can fight the Drake at close range on there turf easy. Yet you are complaining the Drake does it better at it's prefered range. -- I can not decide on a sig yet.
Under Construction.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.14 13:47:00 -
[913]
You must be bad. Tell me where the mean drake touched you. If you can not escape a ship sitting @ 50/60/70/80K you are a ******. Also FYI Drakes can be jammed, sensor damped, targeting disrupted. Its Missile Damage can be entirely negated, by smartbombs, or defender missiles, or simply MWD.ABing away from the drake.
Or you can stop being stupid. Get a Fast ship like a Dram to burn into the enemy fleet warp on top of them and rip them apart. There is absolutely no reason to sit at 70K and watch as the drakes slowly pick you apart 1 by 1.
1. Kill their tackle and Warp off. 2. Get a Warp in on the fleet. 3. Burn away from them. 4. Bring BS support. 5. Use EWAR
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.14 13:52:00 -
[914]
Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 14/12/2010 13:52:46
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider
1. Kill their tackle and Warp off. 2. Get a Warp in on the fleet. 3. Burn away from them. 4. Bring BS support. 5. Use EWAR
I am afraid that stratagy is incorrect. The correct stratagy is to sit and stare at the screen slack jawed as you die. Then run to the forums and call for a nerf.
L2Tactics Sir and stop talking bout warp in's and counters.
-- I can not decide on a sig yet.
Under Construction.
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.12.14 14:05:00 -
[915]
Edited by: Aerilis on 14/12/2010 14:12:50
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Originally by: Aerilis
Angel ships are expensive, skill intensive(piloting skill and SP), and can be neuted and TD'd. These things are what you would call "counters", and all of these things can be done very easily with much cheaper ships. Paper will beat Angel's rock, but the only way to beat a Drake's rock is with... two rocks.
Yes Angel Ships do happen to die when you build your set up specifically around killing angel ships. Oops, did I say die, I meant escape because the only thing that can catch them before they leave is a Rapier.
The only way to beat a Drakes Rock huh, well the Harbinger will do it at close range, so will the active Myrm, at long range, pick a Battleship any Battleship. The other battlecruisers can fight the Drake at close range on there turf easy. Yet you are complaining the Drake does it better at it's prefered range.
Harb is about the only ship that can take a HAM Drake on at close range. Myrm will just get kited and have its drones killed until it runs out of cap boosters.
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider You must be bad. Tell me where the mean drake touched you. If you can not escape a ship sitting @ 50/60/70/80K you are a ******. Also FYI Drakes can be jammed, sensor damped, targeting disrupted. Its Missile Damage can be entirely negated, by smartbombs, or defender missiles, or simply MWD.ABing away from the drake.
Or you can stop being stupid. Get a Fast ship like a Dram to burn into the enemy fleet warp on top of them and rip them apart. There is absolutely no reason to sit at 70K and watch as the drakes slowly pick you apart 1 by 1.
1. Kill their tackle and Warp off. 2. Get a Warp in on the fleet. 3. Burn away from them. 4. Bring BS support. 5. Use EWAR
1. Cool, that was a great fight. Now theres two fleets without tackle. 2. Yeah, because range Drake fleets always sit still. 3. And that's going to help me kill them... how? 4&5. Refer to my original point about the only way to beat Drakes is to use bigger/expensiver/more skill intensive ships. Also, lolhotdrop if you bring BS.
edit--about ewar--lol did you say sensor damps? Have you ever used sensor damps? Oh and Drake is the hardest BC to jam. Just another area where it is the best BC.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.14 17:17:00 -
[916]
1. then don't ***** about bringing a knife to a gun fight. 2. and you can out run them in any other ship BC and under. 3. Yes you run targetting range scripts and knock them down to 40-50K Range and even the range fight 4. Again why bring a knife to a gun fight. Stop fighting on their terms, drake is great at range, not great at close fights. Bring Ships that can combat the range fight, such as BS. Or bring the fight on top of them via a warp in. Stop trying to make canes and **** seem underpowered when they can chew HML and HAM drakes up in a 25K range fight. (hint either kite a HAM drake out of range, or Grossly out DPS a HML drake.)
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:05:00 -
[917]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider 1. then don't ***** about bringing a knife to a gun fight. 2. and you can out run them in any other ship BC and under. 3. Yes you run targetting range scripts and knock them down to 40-50K Range and even the range fight 4. Again why bring a knife to a gun fight. Stop fighting on their terms, drake is great at range, not great at close fights. Bring Ships that can combat the range fight, such as BS. Or bring the fight on top of them via a warp in. Stop trying to make canes and **** seem underpowered when they can chew HML and HAM drakes up in a 25K range fight. (hint either kite a HAM drake out of range, or Grossly out DPS a HML drake.)
Again with the sensor damps. You're going to knock down all the Drake's range to 40km? Just how many Arazus do you have?
Alright fine, let's do a mental exercise shall we.
Let's use these so-called "tactics" and get a warp in. Go hero dramiel pilot! You got behind the Drakes? Excellent! Fleet warp! Alright we landed right on top of them! Drakes are only good at range, now we're fighting on "our terms"! Time to "chew" them out! Oh WTF they're tanked to hell its taking forever to kill them? Alright we got a couple... next primary is XYZ in a Drake! What do you mean hes 50km off already? All the Drakes burned out in random directions around us so theres no possible way to close range on all of them? Fleet bail bail bail!
And you just lost half your fleet and killed two Drakes.
Don't say you can "chew" out Drakes at 0km, whether they're HAM fit or HML fit Drakes can tank*gank as well if not better than any other BC in the game in regards to close range combat.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:12:00 -
[918]
maybe you should stick to shooting asteroids, apparently shutting down a drake fleet is above your capabilities.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:12:00 -
[919]
The problem isn't that the drake is too good at any one role (close perhaps) but that it is too versatile relative to the other BC's in that it does almost as well as any of the others that often have very limited effectiveness outside what they do best.
In many instances the drake can peform mutiple roles well without refitting ..too.
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:27:00 -
[920]
Edited by: Aerilis on 14/12/2010 18:34:19
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider maybe you should stick to shooting asteroids, apparently shutting down a drake fleet is above your capabilities.
I'm all ears, tell me what clever tactic you have that doesn't involve 3x the amount of ISK and SP that the Drake fleet has.
edit-looked you up on BC, found out that you fly almost exclusively Drakes. Oh, what a surprise.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:33:00 -
[921]
Yep, Considering I have a grand total of 5 million SP it allows me to participate within a fleet environment. Although you shouldn't really believe everything you read about <1 year old pilots.
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:37:00 -
[922]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider Although you shouldn't really believe everything you read about <1 year old pilots.
If you're trying to imply something about your skill, I can see that most of your kills are also noobs/haulers/eve-uni. You're not exactly qualified to give me a lecture on fleet tactics. But still, I'm curious. Answer my original question as to how you would counter a Drake fleet without requiring 3x the ISK and SP the Drake fleet has.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:43:00 -
[923]
No I am implying you shouldn't be so naive that I am posting on a 1 year old character so obviously means I have no prior experience.
I have listed numerous times how I would counter drake fleets, go back and read through this silly thread or just this last page.
(also If you think an arazu is the only ship that can Target Range damp a drake you are a larger moron than I initially thought.)
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.12.14 18:49:00 -
[924]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider No I am implying you shouldn't be so naive that I am posting on a 1 year old character so obviously means I have no prior experience.
I have listed numerous times how I would counter drake fleets, go back and read through this silly thread or just this last page.
(also If you think an arazu is the only ship that can Target Range damp a drake you are a larger moron than I initially thought.)
And I have shown you that they either don't work, or require an exorbitant amount of ISK/SP as compared to the Drake fleet.
And I said Arazus because any ship without a boost to RSD's isn't going to be able get a Drake below 50% lock range due to stacking penalties. But of course that requires you actually know how sensor damps work, rather than ignorantly calling people stupid because they don't use them.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.14 19:04:00 -
[925]
maybe you should EFT what 2 unbonused Sensor Damps with Tracking Range scripts do to a drake. Or even 1. You might sound a little less silly when you see 1 cane can effectively knock a drake down to 25K using 2 of them.
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.12.14 20:57:00 -
[926]
Edited by: Aerilis on 14/12/2010 21:05:09
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 14/12/2010 19:32:36 Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 14/12/2010 19:19:05 maybe you should EFT what 2 unbonused Sensor Damps with Tracking Range scripts do to a drake. Or even 1. You might sound a little less silly when you see 1 cane can effectively knock a drake down to 25K using 2 of them. Oh and still kite the drakes @ 30K out of lock range, and hit them out to 34 @ 519 DPS inc drones. Sooooo 0 DPS vs 519 now who is OP? Or better yet fit a myrm with 2 and watch as drones kill them for 50K out while sitting back with 107K EHP
That at all level 5 skills, which brings it to 27.2 KM. More realistically, he'll have a little more than 30km lock range. Also, you're forgetting that your optimal with sensor damps is 45km with all level 5 skills. Realistically, maybe a little over 40.
THIS MEANS. You will commit 2 medium slots to sensor dampeners JUST SO you can fight Drakes in a 10km engagement window.
edit: Any armor setup will instantly not work, as Drake will dictate range over you. edit2: You realize you do half damage at falloff range right? Which means most of your setups do about 300 damage. Drake peak recharge is about 150-200 DPS. You figure. edit3: If you'd like, I'll get one of my friends who flies a Drake to 1v1 any of those setups. If you win, I'll pay you one billion ISK. Should be a peace of cake for a "drake killer" right? If you don't have the skills, you can get one of your corpmates to do it for you. As long as its one of those fits.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.14 23:41:00 -
[927]
Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 14/12/2010 23:44:55 Yes you have about a 50% chance for the damp to fail or not. Something that may or may not occur 50% of the time. Using 2 gives you roughly a 75% chance that 1 will activate and reduce the drakes range to under 50K (which is where you will be) as you get closer your % off effect rises. The only real trouble zone is the last 10 meter's or so until you enter optimal range @ which point the fight becomes more one sided as the drake can do nothing until you enter his targeting range @ 27K.
Now you asked why would I use sensor damps..... why not. If I am having issues with a ranged group of attackers, and I know it is fruitless for me to try and match range, the next best thing is to eliminate that range. Forcing them to either Move in to me, allow me to move into them, or leave the field of battle entirely. Is it wasting 2 mid slots (3 since all three of these ships require a Sensor Booster to reach the range for Optimal+Falloff.) The three ships to which the sensor booster is applied gain nothing from these slots outside of unneeded tackle. All of these ships have a higher top speed than the drakes, meaning you are always closing in. All but the Harb are over 50K EHP, however all have a decent buffer to allow Logi to tank for them.
As for the peak recharge DPS tank of the drake. You are misinformed. In order to obtain 200 shield HP/s you need shield recharges, SPR's and Purger rigs. The drake on page one is Only getting a tank of 130DPS, its recharge peak is 36HP/s. Now you could argue logi will change things, which it will for a bit. Unless you force them off the field or just get so much Damage that it doesn't matter anymore.
You made a claim that drake fleets are so OP it isn't funny. When they are nothing of the sort, and are only using their range bonus to their advantage. When forced onto the close range turf, the drakes are at a disadvantage in terms of DPS, and Kite Tanks. You seem to be acting like drakes will instapop you, they might get a few people, but once the damps are on them, they will not be getting anyone anymore.
By all means take a friend out and try it out. You fly in a big mean drake and watch as you are reduced to uselessness. Its a similar tactic SB gangs use to Sit inside 20K to keep points on their targets while the tickle them to death.
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Lemming EVERADIO'FAN
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:02:00 -
[928]
A single Enyo holding point on a drake is enough to crack it. Two Assult Frigs on a drake will kill it.
Drakes have an issue with heavy assult frigs Fast movement (Lower DPS), solid resistances + Reps, two AF is enough DPS to crack shield and drop cap to unusable levels with NoS. Just takes a little bit.
Thats the current counter. I've also seen Drakes drop in 1v1 to Myrmidons, and sometimes to Hurricanes. In Fleet fights they usually are the last to be primaried.
The DPS Tanks on these ships are the only things that need to be scaled back a little bit. Drop the natural recharge rate by 15-20% and the ship will be more in line with what its supposed to be IMOP.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:10:00 -
[929]
Your opinion is ******ed. It may have a slightly higher DPS tank, but its sig radius is fecking huge. Put a drake and a cane against a BS see who last longer. Nerfing the drakes passive recharge isn't going to stop people from complaining. Unless you think 36 hp/s a second at peak is impossible to overcome.
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:16:00 -
[930]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 14/12/2010 23:44:55 Yes you have about a 50% chance for the damp to fail or not. Something that may or may not occur 50% of the time. Using 2 gives you roughly a 75% chance that 1 will activate and reduce the drakes range to under 50K (which is where you will be) as you get closer your % off effect rises. The only real trouble zone is the last 10 meter's or so until you enter optimal range @ which point the fight becomes more one sided as the drake can do nothing until you enter his targeting range @ 27K.
Now you asked why would I use sensor damps..... why not. If I am having issues with a ranged group of attackers, and I know it is fruitless for me to try and match range, the next best thing is to eliminate that range. Forcing them to either Move in to me, allow me to move into them, or leave the field of battle entirely. Is it wasting 2 mid slots (3 since all three of these ships require a Sensor Booster to reach the range for Optimal+Falloff.) The three ships to which the sensor booster is applied gain nothing from these slots outside of unneeded tackle. All of these ships have a higher top speed than the drakes, meaning you are always closing in. All but the Harb are over 50K EHP, however all have a decent buffer to allow Logi to tank for them.
As for the peak recharge DPS tank of the drake. You are misinformed. In order to obtain 200 shield HP/s you need shield recharges, SPR's and Purger rigs. The drake on page one is Only getting a tank of 130DPS, its recharge peak is 36HP/s. Now you could argue logi will change things, which it will for a bit. Unless you force them off the field or just get so much Damage that it doesn't matter anymore.
You made a claim that drake fleets are so OP it isn't funny. When they are nothing of the sort, and are only using their range bonus to their advantage. When forced onto the close range turf, the drakes are at a disadvantage in terms of DPS, and Kite Tanks. You seem to be acting like drakes will instapop you, they might get a few people, but once the damps are on them, they will not be getting anyone anymore.
By all means take a friend out and try it out. You fly in a big mean drake and watch as you are reduced to uselessness. Its a similar tactic SB gangs use to Sit inside 20K to keep points on their targets while the tickle them to death.
OK this obviously isn't getting through to you. I'm going to try another angle. You're saying the Drake's so-called weakness is that it can be damped, and therefore its ranged capabilities reduced. But the Drake has the strongest electronics and sensors of ANY BC. Any kind of ewar that works on the Drake would be more effective against any other BC (besides the Ferox). If the Drake had the weakest sensors, then it would be a legitimate weakness. Even if you're in the situation where you can get the jump on Drakes with sensor damps/ecm/etc, this only works in solo/small gang situations. There is no way to coordinate ewar against a gang of 50 Drakes, which leaves that issue completely unresolved.
And none of me EFT Drake setups has less than 150 DPS passive recharge (except the nano one of course) and I assure you I don't have any SPR's or purgers, so IDK.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:38:00 -
[931]
Well I used your exact fit on page one and I an tell you right now you are not getting 150 Peak Recharge. You are getting 36 Recharge. The rest of the tank comes from the Dual Invul fields. Then again against EM/Therm you DPS tank drops considerably, but your peak rechrage remains the same. As far as the nano drake goes, I fly it exclusively and I can tell you right now you are not getting much better of a tank in it vs any other BC EHP, DPS or otherwise.
As for the Damps argument, what is your point. They work do they not. The drakes can no longer target out to 70K. As for having a fleet do this you simply instruct people to target drakes, If you have 50v50 chances are you are going to eliminate enough of their DPS to organize better. Considering your fleet is dependent on the range being closed to 30K to deal damage and be safe you have a few minutes to ensure that your damps are fairly evenly spread. Is it going to lock down all of them instantly no. Should it no. But you will certainly get enough of them to curb the DPS incoming enough your Logi's can keep the primary up.
Stop pretending drakes are invincible. Oh and fyi, Damps either work or they don't sensor strength has nothing to do with it. Fall Off missing % is the only variable, inside optimals those drakes get damped 100% of the time.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:43:00 -
[932]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 15/12/2010 06:44:43
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider Your opinion is ******ed. It may have a slightly higher DPS tank, but its sig radius is fecking huge. Put a drake and a cane against a BS see who last longer. Nerfing the drakes passive recharge isn't going to stop people from complaining. Unless you think 36 hp/s a second at peak is impossible to overcome.
Average drake: Sig 349 - Sig with MWD 2096 - EHP 86,000 Average hurricane: Sig 299 - Sig with MWD 1792 - EHP 47,000
--------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Lemming EVERADIO'FAN
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.15 06:59:00 -
[933]
ok, I am not going to label you as a troll. Ill let the OP F* comment slide.
Drake - 300-500+ consistant DPS thats able to hit holes, is potentially EW imune (FOF), Capless weapons, 18km For Short range. T2 Ship Resistsances (Very easy to hit nearly 80% across the board) Buffer: 60-100K EHP Free Rep - 150-300 EHPS recharge at peak recharge, cannot be turned off. This is the equivelent of a free medium or Large armor rep that cant be shut off. Cap Neut Resistant (or completely immune if you build it right).
The main issue here, is the Effective HP + Passive recharge. You can get a myrmidon or Amar Battle cruiser to have the same Effective HP, but no where near the active tank. DPS may be higher on the other ships, but cant go anywhere near the drakes endurance level. You should have to spend Cap to achive active armor repair rates, and you shouldnt be able to field a massive buffer and the equivelent of a medium or large repper at the rate of effectively zero cap usage. Thats where everyone goes kind of bonkers about it. That buffer isn't just 80k EFP, its 80K + 150 HP for every second it takes you do do damage against it. Most of my drake fights take at least 2-3 minutes of wailing on it which is another 18000-27000 EFHP added to that boat. It gets even worse if the fits set up specifically for being a little endurance block of shields.
Not even battleships come close to this level of passive "Free" EHP or resistances. Sure your sig radius is bigger, but all that means is that you can actually hit max damage, not take more damage than you are supposed to.
Show me a fit using another other BC thats got 400 DPS, 100000 EHP, nearly 80% resistances, is Ewar Immune, extremely Neut Resistant and doesnt use cap boosters.
I'll even let you do it wouthout putting a point on it.
^.^
But as I mentioned,. there are counters to it, you just have to go small to get under the explosioin redius/velocity of the missiles and settle in for an endurance fight against an endurance boat.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.15 07:13:00 -
[934]
Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 15/12/2010 07:15:27 an what do you consider and average cane build might I ask. The one I have is just shy of 50KEHP with a 1400 Sig radius using MWD.
edit YOU ARE NOT GETTING 150-300 Passive Recharge without rechargers SPRS or Purger rigs. You may have a 150DPS tank but that is because of your invulns, turn them off and watch your tank drop.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.15 07:29:00 -
[935]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 15/12/2010 07:30:02
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 15/12/2010 07:18:19 Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 15/12/2010 07:15:27 an what do you consider and average cane build might I ask. The one I have is just shy of 50KEHP with a 1400 Sig radius using MWD.
edit
YOU ARE NOT GETTING 150-300 Passive Recharge without rechargers SPRS or Purger rigs. You may have a 150DPS tank but that is because of your invulns, turn them off and watch your tank drop.
Infact I don't think it is possible to get 300 HP/s recharge. Period.
[Hurricane, EVEMon Hurricane: Shield Buffer Gank-A-Cane] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Carbonized Lead M 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Torrent Assault Missile 'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Torrent Assault Missile
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x1 Valkyrie II x1
I don't fly them, however downloaded this one, which was rated high, from battleclinic. --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.12.15 07:50:00 -
[936]
Pinky HP/s is a completely worthless value in Eve. Its EHP/s that you want, which is represented by the DPS tanked number in EFT. That's what everyone is talking about.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.15 07:58:00 -
[937]
Edited by: Pinky Starstrider on 15/12/2010 08:05:59 [Hurricane, New Setup 1] 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II
Stasis Webifier II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M E50 Prototype Energy Vampire [empty high slot]
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Warrior II x5
54K EHP w/ low grade slave. +3% PG implant.
Quote: Pinky HP/s is a completely worthless value in Eve. Its EHP/s that you want, which is represented by the DPS tanked number in EFT. That's what everyone is talking about.
But you are not getting that HP. All that means is Each shot OMNI damage wise is reduced by that amount. Thats fine if you only have 1 ship shooting you, but when you have more than 1 it is redundant. Against Amarr or Minnie for example your effective tank even with 2 invulns is just over 100. When you are talking about well over 1K DPS your 100 DPS tank means ****. Especially if you are put into a position where you can not shoot back unless you use F.O.F which lose DPS, are nano fit which is less DPS and/or Tank.
The drake HML drake is only strong if you let it dictate range (which is why the nano drake rocks). If you make it fight or flee on your terms it loses much of its strength.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2010.12.15 08:31:00 -
[938]
You realize your now only around 40mps faster then the drake and still can't hit it for any damage even with your longest range ammo? and you still have only 60% of its EHP? --------------------------------------------- Hate Bots / RMT? Do something worthwhile and good for EvE and cause tears and anguish for others, while doing absolutely nothing yourself! Join up. |
Lemming EVERADIO'FAN
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.15 09:05:00 -
[939]
Edited by: Lemming EVERADIO''FAN on 15/12/2010 09:09:30 [Drake, Gate Bait] Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Shield Flux Coil II Shield Flux Coil II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Hellfire Rage Assault Missile Small Nosferatu II
Medium Bay Loading Accelerator I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
490+ DPS with implants, 319 Effective HPS with a level V shield leadership skill (no command ship, skill only). 87k Effective HP. +8 Cap per second remaining with the Nos running (which is 5 minutes of "Go" time under a Single medium Neut, 275 effective recharge with just 1 Invuln running and the disruptor off and she is cap stable at that point. Neut resistant as hell.
*eddit* Those should be terror Rage assults, not hellfire's...
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StonedAGAIN
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Posted - 2010.12.15 15:03:00 -
[940]
Drakes totally need nerfed or there counterparts brought up to the same level, but in doing this you would need to take a look again at all other ship classes, Drake can b as good as a battleship if not better is in some ways.. why is this??? cant do that with a myrmidon, hurricane or a harbinger...
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.15 16:37:00 -
[941]
Originally by: Pinky Starstrider ...Myrm with no prop mod...
Please include a prop mode when doing comparisions both for and against Drake.
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Lemming EVERADIO'FAN
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.15 17:31:00 -
[942]
Pinky was responding to my comments and challenge to build a similar boat to the one I posted just a few remarks above this one.
Even without the point or prop mod, he still hasn't outdone the standard Gate Bait I've fought on many an occasion.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.15 17:37:00 -
[943]
Originally by: StonedAGAIN Drakes totally need nerfed or there counterparts brought up to the same level, but in doing this you would need to take a look again at all other ship classes, Drake can b as good as a battleship if not better is in some ways.. why is this??? cant do that with a myrmidon, hurricane or a harbinger...
How is a drake better than battleships? or as good when battleships tear it apart?
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TheGoodTrader
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Posted - 2010.12.15 17:49:00 -
[944]
Drake needs a buff. I want to be able to fit a DCU without sacrificing damage or shield recharge.
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.12.15 18:11:00 -
[945]
I agree it needs another hard point for 8 launchers, a bigger drone bay, and an extra low slot. It should also have the 5% damage mod to scourge changed to 5% universal.
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Naxias
Pod Liberation Authority
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Posted - 2011.02.10 22:32:00 -
[946]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced. When you get 50+ of them all buffer tanking and alpha striking people at upto ~85km as the current FOTM strategy is out there, this underpins their usefulness (max buffer for sig/speed tank and max range with same damage) so this is a scenario specific issue to large fleet warfare. There are counter strategies to this, but drakes+scimitars is an easier to coordinate tactic. The drakes tank or specifically its passive tank does concern us where both can be equally affected in a similar way. Food for thought anyway, we rarely intervene with emergent strategies and tactics as a counter usually matures after some time but will keep an eye on this thread to see what the rest of you think.
Any tactic that is scalable to a 50+ person fleet will always create game play issues. So to my mind the concern is more of scalable tactics than a specific ship. Maybe there is some subtle change that will not magnify the power of numbers but it's hard to think of one. Who knows, make defender missiles viable in pvp? That would be a sight to see! Yeah, surely it's all about server load so it's a bad idea but still. How about if local has more than 20 people a black hole opens up? Long live the solo small gang hunters!
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Certified Household Sweeping Consulting
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Posted - 2011.02.10 22:46:00 -
[947]
Originally by: Lemming EVERADIO'FAN fit
facepalm.com
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