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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.11.01 23:57:00 -
[751]
I hardly think that a very minor nerf to the drake's locking range would cause the level of panic you are suggesting. Drake would still be the premium long range vessel and short range fits would be affected, it just wouldn't be able to fit 100k EHP and do 300+ dps at 70+km, would be more like 80k EHP (probably more) which is still twice as much as almost any other BC trying to do that much dps at that range. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
DeadNite
Caldari The Inferno Legions SCUM.
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Posted - 2010.11.02 00:12:00 -
[752]
Originally by: Bobbechk
Originally by: DeadNite
EHP: 95+K+ (100k+ on fire) DPS: 638(718 on fire) up close - Hail M DPS: 522 (586 on fire) within 21KM - Barrage M
It would seem the realistic DPS output you would get when using HAIL M is closers to 5 then 638 shooting anything other then a structure
also your calculation for Barrage M at 20km is way off and really only does 300 DPS (tho really only 200 subtracting drone damage)
Of course, these are EFT values. The same will be seen with any of the weapon systems. That is part of the point here. Paper values are being considered because people are butthurt currently. I imagine everyone is flying around with all relevant Lv.5s too. </sarcasm&frustration> Weakness in attitude becomes weakness of character. -AE |
DeadNite
Caldari The Inferno Legions SCUM.
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Posted - 2010.11.02 00:28:00 -
[753]
Originally by: Rhinanna I hardly think that a very minor nerf to the drake's locking range would cause the level of panic you are suggesting. Drake would still be the premium long range vessel and short range fits would be affected, it just wouldn't be able to fit 100k EHP and do 300+ dps at 70+km, would be more like 80k EHP (probably more) which is still twice as much as almost any other BC trying to do that much dps at that range.
So, remind me why you are engaging at a range you cannot compete again? Should we nerf the damage that every other factions BCs should do up close because drakes cannot compete there? Or is it "Okay" that the Drake gets beat up close by just about every other BC out there?
I blame your tactics. There is more to PvP then calling primaries. You can shut a 200 drake blob down with 100 jamming ships. They are making it easy for you, you don't even have to worry about not having the right type of jammers. Lock them all down and pick them off.
Think back to the ally tournament when PL locked the other side completely down. Now, increase the scale of that and consider the possibilities. Your cookie cutter fleet fit drake that was posted above can do nothing and has no way to retaliate then.
When your enemies tactics evolve to counter yours, you have to do the same.
Adapt, or stagnate and die. Weakness in attitude becomes weakness of character. -AE |
Cosmic Brownies
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Posted - 2010.11.02 02:39:00 -
[754]
Originally by: DeadNite
Adapt, or stagnate and die.
Thats what I said before the speed nerf
Boost HAMs, nerf HMs In a way that there's actually some thought/sacrifice into a drake fit. Currently there's about 1 fit for the drake with little variation, maybe a PDU vs. a BCU or a specific hardener vs. an invul.
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Blnukem 192
Amarr Creed.
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Posted - 2010.11.02 02:53:00 -
[755]
Yes drakes need a nerf. -2 med slots + -50% shield regen please.
Originally by: CCP Navigator This is really not worthy of a thread.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.02 15:01:00 -
[756]
Originally by: Rhinanna I hardly think that a very minor nerf to the drake's locking range would cause the level of panic you are suggesting. Drake would still be the premium long range vessel and short range fits would be affected, it just wouldn't be able to fit 100k EHP and do 300+ dps at 70+km, would be more like 80k EHP (probably more) which is still twice as much as almost any other BC trying to do that much dps at that range.
I think its bad form to change the symptoms rather then the underlying problem. Why are people using drake gangs (if you could even call it a "problem" to begin with)? Well, its different then the armor hac/BS blobs that has been used since forever in 0.0.
And where are the complaints about the Zealot only gans? The archon only gangs? The more usefulness of Amror RR since it so horribly easy to fit?
Drakes in a way actually counters this, and is a nice alternative to the horribly boring mono armor RR gangs. Perhaps if the Ferox was actually a useful ship, if the Brutix was not a joke and the Prophecy not useless would we have more diversity in the BC area.
I actually like that a missile ship is being used in fleet warefare, thats never really been done seriously before, wiht good reason due to turret instant damage that meshes poorly with missiles. A missile only gang have had potential since day one however, but non really used it. (Much like a Raven gang can actually be good inside a 250km radius, with some dencet fits for it, but it blends poorly with turret ships)
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.11.02 15:12:00 -
[757]
Originally by: Rhinanna I hardly think that a very minor nerf to the drake's locking range would cause the level of panic you are suggesting. Drake would still be the premium long range vessel...etc
Correct. A minor change would have little impact on either the ship or the number of players using it. It would be nothing more than a concession to "imbalance" that does not exist. And in any case, it misses the point. Let me state it clearly:
CCP does not want people using the Drake (or other missile boats) in fleet PvP.
No minor change is likely to accomplish this.
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Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.11.02 15:26:00 -
[758]
CCP has already stated that the Drake has seen a significant increase in use and we can see this ourselves on the major killboards. Below are the stats from the eve kill site which show the Drake dominating all other ships. These numbers put the Falcon and Vaga to shame during their glory days.
Rank / Kills 1 Drake 283608 2 Hurricane 91237 3 Megathron 54835 4 Zealot 50624 5 Tempest 45606
What CCP ultimately wants to see a variety of ships being used in Eve, so when they see stuff like this they have a 100% record of taking action. So the focus should be on what is fair. There are two main factors that seperate the drake with all other ships. Its high shield resists and a long range. When non drakes join a drake gang, those 'other' ships are always primary as they can't be repped as well by the Scimis and so are easier to kill.
One fix is to provide other high shield resist ships with long range. Then people will jump in those alternatives for drake gangs. This would definitely drop drake usage as I personally hate boarding a drake, but I do it anyways as it is so damn good.
Another fix is to nerf either the resist bonus or long range of the drake. Either nerf would automatically make other ships viable to be in the drake gang. This would also cause the type of emo we saw with the great speed nerf.
Another option is create an effective counter to a drake gang. As there are so many drake gangs out there, you would see this 'counter' become popular quickly. I have yet to figure out what this counter would be but that is why pay the big buck to CCP, so they can figure it out.
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Dummy Jumper
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Posted - 2010.11.02 15:51:00 -
[759]
Originally by: Solid Star There are two main factors that seperate the drake with all other ships. [/quote
There are three actually. You forgot drake fitting, it is very generous.
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Jekyl Eraser
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Posted - 2010.11.02 16:13:00 -
[760]
If drake/missile lag is an issue you could decrease missile(or HML only) ROF and increase dmg.
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Keras Authion
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Posted - 2010.11.02 16:55:00 -
[761]
Originally by: Solid Star CCP has already stated that the Drake has seen a significant increase in use and we can see this ourselves on the major killboards. Below are the stats from the eve kill site which show the Drake dominating all other ships. These numbers put the Falcon and Vaga to shame during their glory days.
Maybe it's because there's no good alternatives for caldari. On the same top 10 (there's a longer list earlier in this thread) there's only 2 caldari ships, the other being manticore. So I agree, buff the other caldari ships so we can get more variety on field or at least fix the damn hybrids. Also the sum of the racial ships is about the same except for the gallente. Let's look at the other options available.
T1 frigates are suicide for fleet battles, bad for solo/low skill. Aside from the manticore, T2 frigates suffer from hybrids, shield/tackle/ewar fitting problems and delayed damage with missiles. Caracal is good vs frigates and drones, near-decent with HML sniping. Moa suffers from the poorness of the hybids. Blackbird I have no idea, probably because of the tank/ecm problem. Ferox has low powergrid, also hybrids. Scorpion might be workable sitting 150km away jamming with little tank, but it's rarely used. Raven does good dps up close but has weak-ish tank, at long range coordinating the volleys becomes difficult. Rokh can snipe for low damage with hybrids.
The preferred weapon in PvP is still turret types. You can get a salvo or 2 worth of damage before the missiles hit. Caldari secondary weapon is blasters, which are a bit borked at the moment. Rails do low damage and can't track anything nearby, blasters have trouble tracking on their optimal even if they do lots of damage. And they use cap. As for the "but missiles always hit, turrets are affected by transversal!", the missiles are affected by speed in any direction, not just if moving sideways. The only thing why missiles are now in favor is because they work reliably in laggy conditions.
Shield vs armour is balanced by the fact that armour makes you slower and makes you choose between dps and tank, shields increase sig making you easier to hit by anything, including bigger ships that couldn't hit you nearly as well without your tank, and shield forces you to choose between ewar and tank. If you look at the other BCs, you'll also notice that quite many has a defensive bonus whether it is a active tank of the preferred type or a resist so drake is not alone with one. Also since 2 races use armour and 1 can use armour effectively, it's the preferred type in fleets. Shields do not work well in these. So shield users fly in shield fleets. If you want other ships to be able to fly in shield fleets, it should be possible to fly shield ships in armour fleets too. Should we nerf armour to make it possible to join them in shield ships? (note: exaggerated example) Nerfing remote reps and active armour tanks to about 2x passive shield recharge should do the trick. I bet we'd see more passive shield in armour gangs after that . Obviously that's not a solution at all.
As for the drake: it does reliable 400-something dps at long range and has a great tank, but can't hold its targets. At close range it loses some tank (though it's still good) and does 600-something damage. It's better than what other ships can put out at long range and less than others at close range (HAMs take severe penalties on small and/or fast targets). Also the damage is delayed, so it needs the tank to survive long enough. Remember that increasing the tank does increase the damage it takes in the form of better hits, something that eft doesn't tell. Finally the drake has remained the same for a long time. It hasn't changed but suddendly it's OP. Missiles didn't either. In fact in ships and modules people tell you that caldari and missiles can't be used for PvP. Yet Drake is OP despite being caldari and using missiles that are bad at pvp. Does not compute.
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Arbiter Reformed
Minmatar 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.11.02 20:33:00 -
[762]
i vote drop resist bonus for a rof bonus amiright!
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Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.11.02 20:48:00 -
[763]
Originally by: Keras Authion
Originally by: Solid Star CCP has already stated that the Drake has seen a significant increase in use and we can see this ourselves on the major killboards. Below are the stats from the eve kill site which show the Drake dominating all other ships. These numbers put the Falcon and Vaga to shame during their glory days.
Maybe it's because there's no good alternatives for caldari. On the same top 10 (there's a longer list earlier in this thread) there's only 2 caldari ships, the other being manticore. So I agree, buff the other caldari ships so we can get more variety on field or at least fix the damn hybrids. Also the sum of the racial ships is about the same except for the gallente. Let's look at the other options available.
I do agree that any solution that wants to limit emo would need to be more comprehensive then just hitting the drake with a nerf bat. And anyone that believes there is nothing wrong needs their head examined. If CCP doubled the DPS and range of a tank they would still say the Drake is balanced.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.03 13:26:00 -
[764]
Originally by: Arbiter Reformed i vote drop resist bonus for a rof bonus amiright!
I would actually support that. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.11.03 15:40:00 -
[765]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Arbiter Reformed i vote drop resist bonus for a rof bonus amiright!
I would actually support that.
Heck, I'd exchange the resistance and kinetic missile damage bonus for a +25% ROF bonus at BC 5.
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Lord NathanZachary
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Posted - 2010.11.03 15:43:00 -
[766]
anyone that thinks drakes are OP in PVP probably should have their brain examined. Just because alot of fleets are now (with no really update to change anything) figuring ways to use drakes efficiently doesn't make them overpowered. I mean look at AT8... most of the fleets that fielded drakes lost, and alot of them were just getting made fun of for fielding slow dieing ships.
and just because EFT says it gets ___ dps... doesnt mean it does. Missile DPS is greatly diminished by sig radius and velocity calculations.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.11.03 17:58:00 -
[767]
Originally by: Solid Star And anyone that believes there is nothing wrong needs their head examined. If CCP doubled the DPS and range of a tank they would still say the Drake is balanced.
If Drakes aren't overpowered solo and in small gang, but are overpowered in laggy blob with logistics support, then the problem isn't the Drake, it's the laggy blob or the logistics support.
Not much more to it than that, really. |
Nadia Chow
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Posted - 2010.11.03 18:54:00 -
[768]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Solid Star And anyone that believes there is nothing wrong needs their head examined. If CCP doubled the DPS and range of a tank they would still say the Drake is balanced.
If Drakes aren't overpowered solo and in small gang, but are overpowered in laggy blob with logistics support, then the problem isn't the Drake, it's the laggy blob or the logistics support.
Not much more to it than that, really.
So simple, and so true.
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2010.11.03 19:42:00 -
[769]
Originally by: Nadia Chow
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Solid Star And anyone that believes there is nothing wrong needs their head examined. If CCP doubled the DPS and range of a tank they would still say the Drake is balanced.
If Drakes aren't overpowered solo and in small gang, but are overpowered in laggy blob with logistics support, then the problem isn't the Drake, it's the laggy blob or the logistics support.
Not much more to it than that, really.
So simple, and so true.
Exactly. There's not much you can't make awesome with 30 logistics ships backing you up. _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.11.04 05:51:00 -
[770]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Solid Star And anyone that believes there is nothing wrong needs their head examined. If CCP doubled the DPS and range of a tank they would still say the Drake is balanced.
If Drakes aren't overpowered solo and in small gang, but are overpowered in laggy blob with logistics support, then the problem isn't the Drake, it's the laggy blob or the logistics support.
Not much more to it than that, really.
That is a logical fallacy. A being true does not make B false. By your logic, if we were to replace the drakes with the exact number of another ship type (of similar cost) they would do equally as well. We already know that is not true because the drakes range and resist bonus. For another BC to be equal (tank wise) you would need 25% more logistics in gang repping you. If you have ever engaged a drake gang you should know that most FCs target the Hurricanes and other non Drakes first. They do this because they know the logistics can't rep a Cane as well as it has no resist bonus.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2010.11.04 08:52:00 -
[771]
Originally by: Solid Star
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Solid Star And anyone that believes there is nothing wrong needs their head examined. If CCP doubled the DPS and range of a tank they would still say the Drake is balanced.
If Drakes aren't overpowered solo and in small gang, but are overpowered in laggy blob with logistics support, then the problem isn't the Drake, it's the laggy blob or the logistics support.
Not much more to it than that, really.
That is a logical fallacy. A being true does not make B false. By your logic, if we were to replace the drakes with the exact number of another ship type (of similar cost) they would do equally as well. We already know that is not true because the drakes range and resist bonus. For another BC to be equal (tank wise) you would need 25% more logistics in gang repping you. If you have ever engaged a drake gang you should know that most FCs target the Hurricanes and other non Drakes first. They do this because they know the logistics can't rep a Cane as well as it has no resist bonus.
Thanks for that, Captain Obvious. The point is that nothing about the Drake is overpowered solo or in small gang, and therefore any changes that you propose should not affect its ability there. That pretty much limits to you, well, nothing. And clearly indicates that the blob Drake is really a symptom of a larger problem.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.04 11:11:00 -
[772]
The Drake in itself is not the problem, passive shield tank is overpowered and therefore a ship with passive shield bonuses like the Drake moves up in the food chain. The fact that the ship has sufficient damage to the already battleship-like tank at a low price explains why the ship is seeing a lot of use.
The HP buffer of passive shields are not the problem but the regeneration rate on top is.
Personally I would recommend to give any active armor repairer and shield booster a strong boost. Remote shield transfer and armor repair could stay the same, but a passive shield should stop regenerating or at least regenerate much slower while taking damage.
Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
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Pinky Starstrider
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Posted - 2010.11.04 11:39:00 -
[773]
This topic is still going. Jeez I wish the drake was OP before I started training to Minnie BC/BS, I mean **** Id have like 3 months of extra training to spread around. But less than 8 months ago I was the loldrake pilot who had no place in PVP. Now you are saying I am a hot commodity damn......
Also if you "fix" the drake please don't **** with its solo potential.
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Flapkonijn
BLACK LIGHTNING MINING CREW
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Posted - 2010.11.04 12:14:00 -
[774]
I have read most of the pages.
And even though i do fly the drake a lot (because it is overpowered why not use it ) i agree it should be nerfed and brought inline a bit more with other races.
I am not gonna name the reasons as they have been mentioned to death on these pages.
Just wanted to put my support in for the nerf
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.11.04 12:20:00 -
[775]
Originally by: DeadNite So, remind me why you are engaging at a range you cannot compete again? Should we nerf the damage that every other factions BCs should do up close because drakes cannot compete there? Or is it "Okay" that the Drake gets beat up close by just about every other BC out there?
You obviously have never fought a HAM Drake gang in your entire life.
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Solid Star
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Posted - 2010.11.04 13:27:00 -
[776]
Originally by: Gypsio III If the reason that Drakes are preferred over Hurricanes is because of the Drake's resists being better for logistics, then it's quite obvious that the logistics is the problem, not the Drake.
Complete remove the logistics from game and the Hurricane will still be primaried over the Drake. Also, it will take 25% more DPS (or time) to bring down a fleet of Drakes over a fleet of Hurricanes (all other things being equal). More time depend on gang size as shield recharge plays a bigger part.
The drake is not any better in a mixed gang as the actual dps that eventually hits the target is not the best, it not a great tackler, and does not do instant alpha dmg. Couple that with the huge tank and you have a ship where the FC waits till the end to kill it. The problem comes when it is an all drake gang as you can't save it for last. You now need to break the tank of every single drake. So the problem is not the solo drake, the problem is the blob of drakes. We move that blob and we fix the problem.
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Elendra Ragnek
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Posted - 2010.11.04 13:33:00 -
[777]
Got attacked by a Drake gang last night, think it was about two to one odds against us with them at the 160 odd mark.
They jumped in on us, lost a pile of ships, could not get on top of us or in range and their logistics were almost never catching the primaries before we popped them. I think they jumped back out after about 30 losses v none for us.
Give them a few more weeks of doing that and a few more weeks of other people working out how to combat them properly and I bet we won't be seeing them as the primary fleet ship in the not too distant future...
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Frug
Omega Wing
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Posted - 2010.11.04 13:50:00 -
[778]
Originally by: Elendra Ragnek Got attacked by a Drake gang last night, think it was about two to one odds against us with them at the 160 odd mark.
They jumped in on us, lost a pile of ships, could not get on top of us or in range and their logistics were almost never catching the primaries before we popped them. I think they jumped back out after about 30 losses v none for us.
Give them a few more weeks of doing that and a few more weeks of other people working out how to combat them properly and I bet we won't be seeing them as the primary fleet ship in the not too distant future...
While I do not believe that drakes need a nerf and that the whines about them are premature and misguided, I can't help but point out to you that you seem to be missing the point completely and that your example is terrible for two reasons.
The fact that you encountered a gang so incompetent that they can't get off reps in a drake fleet does nothing but prove your example should be ignored because they were being failures. People can make logistics work in large armor hac fleets. Armor hacs have smaller signatures, are slower, and armor rep cycles go off at the end of the cycle. Drakes are big and easier to lock, have more buffer and more resistances, and shield rep cycles go off at the start of the cycle. Because some random people couldn't use them does not change the fact that they're some of the easiest things to rep in the game.
Also the fight you're describing sounds too small to be relevant to the kinds of fleets that people are whining about. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor |
Elendra Ragnek
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Posted - 2010.11.04 15:29:00 -
[779]
Originally by: Frug While I do not believe that drakes need a nerf and that the whines about them are premature and misguided, I can't help but point out to you that you seem to be missing the point completely and that your example is terrible for two reasons.
The fact that you encountered a gang so incompetent that they can't get off reps in a drake fleet does nothing but prove your example should be ignored because they were being failures. People can make logistics work in large armor hac fleets. Armor hacs have smaller signatures, are slower, and armor rep cycles go off at the end of the cycle. Drakes are big and easier to lock, have more buffer and more resistances, and shield rep cycles go off at the start of the cycle. Because some random people couldn't use them does not change the fact that they're some of the easiest things to rep in the game.
Also the fight you're describing sounds too small to be relevant to the kinds of fleets that people are whining about.
You should spend a little less time assuming they were incompetent and a little more time wondering why we could knock them out without too much effort.....
We probably would not use the same tactics against a 400 man drake gang but then again we would not use them against any 400 man gang because you need to have low lag and quite frankly thats not a drake issue so I think both points are totally valid.
My drake has sat growing dust in my hanger for quite a few weeks now as we have simply found more effective and more enjoyable fleet formations. Others will too and then the whole too many drakes is going to die down. Its the whole number of people using them that seem to be the issue and I'm trying to give clear examples as to why I think this particular FOTM will resolve itself in due time without the need to nerf them.
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Nomistrav
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Posted - 2010.11.04 17:14:00 -
[780]
Being as the drake can go twice the speed (with MWD all skills level 5) as an Arti Myrmidon I'm actually somewhat surprised. The Drake beats an Arti Myrm in all aspects besides DPS and that's only because of the myrmidon's drones when I ran the HML drake and the Arti Myrm in E-HQ... Everything but the signature radius but with an MWD on just to catch up to the drake it's not a good option being as the signature radius increase only adds on to the incoming damage.
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