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Aries Darkstar
Deceiver's Scalding Valley
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Posted - 2010.09.25 06:22:00 -
[1]
Recently I lost a ship in what could be said was a noobish move. Noobish or not, a game mechanic was used that I had never seen before and was defiantly not intended to be used as a combat tactic in game.
I set up a ship in Jita and undock. Grab a bait can for a tank test, and eventually the guy starts into me. I tank it for a bit and the guy sends a fleet inv. I accept to chat with him (this was the noobish bit) and we chat while he shoots me. After a bit he starts nueting me and his corp mate in a Vindi undocks and shoots me as well. I tank for a bit then click dock. NOTHING happened?? I checką no aggro, I click dock again still with nothing happening. I spam dock a bit then die.
Turns out the baiting toon had been swapping my fleet position repeatedly to constantly update my session change timer and keep me stuck outside the station.
The fleet mechanics where NEVER meant to stop a person from docking during combat. The "smack talk" function is always there after joining fleet but was certainly NOT made to allow someone to move you from spot to spot in a fleet to stop you from ever docking; which is exactly what was done to me.
The "smack talk" function works as session change timer as far as I understand it. The point of session change timer as Im aware is to STOP players from becoming stuck. This guy used it specifically to get me stuck. The fleet position change was certainly NEVER meant to be a game mechanic to be used by someone trying to kill you by keeping you undocked. IsnĘt that the very definition of an exploit? To use a game mechanic that was never meant for a certain use to gain an advantage???
I was told since I joined fleet there will be no action taken by CCP. Regardless of whether or not I joined fleet, a game is being used in a way that was deffo not intended.
Thoughts / comments please
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2010.09.25 06:28:00 -
[2]
Yes, I'd call it an exploit. But it's easy to avoid, so no biggie. Ofc the whole session timer concept should be reworked, but thats something different... ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation. |
RubberDuckey
Double-Down Demolition Notice
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Posted - 2010.09.25 06:32:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Aries Darkstar Recently I lost a ship in what could be said was a noobish move. Noobish or not, a game mechanic was used that I had never seen before and was defiantly not intended to be used as a combat tactic in game.
I set up a ship in Jita and undock. Grab a bait can for a tank test, and eventually the guy starts into me. I tank it for a bit and the guy sends a fleet inv. I accept to chat with him (this was the noobish bit) and we chat while he shoots me. After a bit he starts nueting me and his corp mate in a Vindi undocks and shoots me as well. I tank for a bit then click dock. NOTHING happened?? I checką no aggro, I click dock again still with nothing happening. I spam dock a bit then die.
Turns out the baiting toon had been swapping my fleet position repeatedly to constantly update my session change timer and keep me stuck outside the station.
The fleet mechanics where NEVER meant to stop a person from docking during combat. The "smack talk" function is always there after joining fleet but was certainly NOT made to allow someone to move you from spot to spot in a fleet to stop you from ever docking; which is exactly what was done to me.
The "smack talk" function works as session change timer as far as I understand it. The point of session change timer as Im aware is to STOP players from becoming stuck. This guy used it specifically to get me stuck. The fleet position change was certainly NEVER meant to be a game mechanic to be used by someone trying to kill you by keeping you undocked. IsnĘt that the very definition of an exploit? To use a game mechanic that was never meant for a certain use to gain an advantage???
I was told since I joined fleet there will be no action taken by CCP. Regardless of whether or not I joined fleet, a game is being used in a way that was deffo not intended.
Thoughts / comments please
Quoting for when he edits it after people make fun of him... Can we get this moved to C&P mods, please. Thanks
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Calanoth
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Posted - 2010.09.25 06:38:00 -
[4]
Exploit is an exploit and theres no excuses for it. CCP lately seems to see their own product as "perfect" I guess. Unfortunatelly its not.... If mechanics is used for other purposes then original then they should react - and this is typical situation TBH.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.09.25 06:52:00 -
[5]
changing your position in fleet is a session change. that it keeps you from docking or leaving fleet is unfortunate, but i wouldnt call that exploit.
but i have to ask you something ... why do you need to join a fleet for a simple 1v1? really .... that is the embarrassing part.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Shadow Confederation
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Posted - 2010.09.25 07:08:00 -
[6]
There are serious issues in your initial recount here.
1: Your in Jita pulling your little test. (How seriously noob are you to do that in the games most heavily trafficked system? For crying out loud go to Perimeter or something)
2: You accepted a fleet invite from someone attacking you.
3: Every time you do something in the game that changes "status" you get a session change (duh).
Conclusion - Is this an exploit?
First off an Exploit is intentionally game breaking mechanic to abuse something.
Secondly... what happened here YOU STARTED and YOU ENABLED.
Lastly... Other than the obvious fact that the guy was intentionally keeping you pinned down... you where doomed regardless.
Now you want to talk exploits? How about an "invisible" aggression timer that continues to get added on without any warning or prior knowledge? That's an exploit.
What you did... you did so with full knowledge of doing so.
Epic Fail man.... man up and move on.
Ain't gonna get anything here. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Aries Darkstar
Deceiver's Scalding Valley
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Posted - 2010.09.25 07:38:00 -
[7]
If you spent more time reading what i wrote instead of smacking and crying about your own ship blowing up you might have a better idea of what happened here bud
Originally by: Drake Draconis There are serious issues in your initial recount here.
1: Your in Jita pulling your little test. (How seriously noob are you to do that in the games most heavily trafficked system? For crying out loud go to Perimeter or something) ^WHERE THIS WAS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT
2: You accepted a fleet invite from someone attacking you. ^YA SO? I CAN STILL TANK WHILE IN A GANG WITH THE GUY SHOOTING ME KTHXBAI
3: Every time you do something in the game that changes "status" you get a session change (duh). ^NO S***, HE CHANGED MY FLEET LOCATION MORE THAN ONCE OR I COULD HAVE EASILY DOCKED AFTER THE ORIGINAL SMACK TALK
Conclusion - Is this an exploit?
First off an Exploit is intentionally game breaking mechanic to abuse something. ^YA SO READ THE POST AGAIN (duh)
Secondly... what happened here YOU STARTED and YOU ENABLED. ^YOU ENABLED COMABT IN THE FIRST PLACE FOR THE HIDDEN AGG TIMER... HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT??
Lastly... Other than the obvious fact that the guy was intentionally keeping you pinned down... you where doomed regardless.
Now you want to talk exploits? How about an "invisible" aggression timer that continues to get added on without any warning or prior knowledge? That's an exploit.
What you did... you did so with full knowledge of doing so.
Epic Fail man.... man up and move on.
Ain't gonna get anything here.
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Julia Venatrix
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Posted - 2010.09.25 08:06:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Drake Draconis There are serious issues in your initial recount here.
1: Your in Jita pulling your little test. (How seriously noob are you to do that in the games most heavily trafficked system? For crying out loud go to Perimeter or something)
2: You accepted a fleet invite from someone attacking you.
3: Every time you do something in the game that changes "status" you get a session change (duh).
Conclusion - Is this an exploit?
First off an Exploit is intentionally game breaking mechanic to abuse something.
Secondly... what happened here YOU STARTED and YOU ENABLED.
Lastly... Other than the obvious fact that the guy was intentionally keeping you pinned down... you where doomed regardless.
Now you want to talk exploits? How about an "invisible" aggression timer that continues to get added on without any warning or prior knowledge? That's an exploit.
What you did... you did so with full knowledge of doing so.
Epic Fail man.... man up and move on.
Ain't gonna get anything here.
I think there are two issues here:
1) OP actions were consistently stupid so his ship got blown up. 2) This use of session mechanics is an exploit
Which lead to two conclusions
1) if OP petitioned for his ship to be returned, petition should be denied 2) future use of this mechanic should be deemed an exploit and followed by banning.
just my $0.02, YMMOMV. --- Some days you are the pigeon, and some the statue. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Shadow Confederation
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Posted - 2010.09.25 08:20:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 25/09/2010 08:24:50
Originally by: Aries Darkstar Crying/Whining
If you had read what I said you'd figure it out.
You had every conceivable visual warning/cue possible.
The Mechanics did EXACTLY what they where supposed to do.
In my case they didn't... and even CCP admitted that... and have done so many times... they just refuse to fix the several year old bug for some damn reason that even evades everyone else here.
It's well documented...
psssst - If you trigger an aggro your supposed to get 2 things - an Aggression timer and an warning pop up when docked... I received neither. Do your homework... prove me wrong smarty pants. Stop being noob and use that head on your shoulders for once. Because your obviously missing the point. I knew exactly what I was getting into... and the timers should have kept updating endlessly constantly reminding me that I started something that could bite me in the ass... instead I got no timer... not even a blip of a warning at 30 minutes into the aggro timer (which is 15 mins by default). Think before you act pal... welcome to EVE Online.
Was it dirty? yeah... but I seriously doubt its an exploit... maybe underhanded but most people wouldn't even do what you did to begin with. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Laxyr
Chamsin Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.09.25 12:52:00 -
[10]
Now, what Aries did WAS stupid but thats how you learn etc etc.
Using the fleet to keep him from docking is an exploitation of the feature (which is meant to configure your fleet setup).
I think this exploit is one of those gray shades between white an black... basically it comes down to wether or not you want to "win ugly".
Since this exploit is so easily avoided you can't blame CCP for focusing on bigger problems. My guess is that they will never regard this as an exploit nor prosecute it accordingly.
Regards, Lax
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Htrag
The Carebear Stare Hydroponic Zone
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Posted - 2010.09.25 13:09:00 -
[11]
Change this issue to "make session change timers shorter and reduce the number of them", I would support it.
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Lykouleon
Trust Doesn't Rust
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Posted - 2010.09.25 14:05:00 -
[12]
Its a dirty move, yea, but an exploit...no so much.
You can just as easily smack in a private channel instead of joining a fleet. Tbh, it's your own damn fault for not watching your session timers, not CCP's.
Quote: Aedun Sole > flying with lyk is like flying a bus filled with 5 year old children
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.09.25 14:28:00 -
[13]
In no way this is an exploit, joining a fleet, leaving one or changing your position causes the standard session change timer. Any competent FC is aware of this and asks people before moving them around so that they won't get stuck on a gate. Of course, if the FC wishes so, he can use it in the opposite way - to prevent people from jumping/docking. If you are so stupid as to join a stranger's fleet.
In exactly the same way, the FC could execute a fleetwarp and warp you off into their gang.
Solution: leave fleet, wait out the session timer, dock. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.09.26 00:52:00 -
[14]
This isn't an exploit, it's just intelligent use of game mechanics. It's not like you're going to fall for the same trick again, after all. It's sneaky as hell, and I'll certainly keep it in my bag of tricks for future engagements, but it's perfectly within the realm of intended mechanics. === "The data does not support that polished quality sells better than new features" "Once Incarna and Dust are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement" CCP, FTW? |
Marcus Gideon
Gallente Federal Defense Operations
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Posted - 2010.09.26 01:07:00 -
[15]
Does this also prevent someone from jumping through a WH? -
One Button Extractors |
Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente League of Gentlemen Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2010.09.26 05:32:00 -
[16]
Not an exploit.
DesuSigs |
Dasola
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.26 09:44:00 -
[17]
Personally i would say this is exploit.
Becouse if this is just intelligence use of game mechanics, then ccp better reinstate all those banned accounts from that mon material reaction fiasko that forced ccp to do some changes how they handle things.
Since game mechanic allows in that case too, it clearly was inttelligence use of game mechanics. Maybe op should actyally petition this upto senior gm level to get definitive answer.
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NightmareX
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.09.26 23:39:00 -
[18]
Edited by: NightmareX on 26/09/2010 23:44:07 The mistake the op did was to accept the fleet invite. If the op have had any experience with fleets he would know that by accepting a fleet invite gives you 30 sec session timer.
If the op had known this, this would never happen.
So, this is NOT an exploit and have never been it either. It's a big noobish mistake by a player that didn't know how fleet mechanics works.
Like me, i haven't done empire wars in like 4 years before i joined MBALM. And i was pretty much clueless on how all of those empire aggroing things was working. But thanks to experienced players in our corps that have exaplained most things to me.
So i'm aware of pretty much everything now.
The best thing you ever can do in empire, is to be smart. If your not smart, your gonna lose alot of isk.
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Slimy Worm
Cyan Wolf
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Posted - 2010.09.27 02:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Aries Darkstar Turns out the baiting toon had been swapping my fleet position repeatedly to constantly update my session change timer and keep me stuck outside the station.
What's a toon? Like a cartoon? How did a cartoon switch your fleet position?
---------------
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Pentinor
Project Nemesis The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.09.27 13:47:00 -
[20]
1) You took a can from someone you didn't know. (In jita no less) 2) Accepted a gang invite from someone you didnt know. 3) Didnt notice the session timer until it was to late.
Not an exploit. You just fcked up. Welcome to eve. Signature locked. Please file a petition to discuss the matter - CCP Fallout |
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John Caffeine
Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.09.27 13:57:00 -
[21]
Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 26/09/2010 23:44:07 So i'm aware of pretty much everything now.
Quoting for hillarity.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar CareBears on Fire The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.09.27 13:59:00 -
[22]
Edited by: De''Veldrin on 27/09/2010 14:00:32
Originally by: Eve Online TOS
23. You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
To be deemed an exploit, criteria one is that it is a bug. This is not a bug, but the way the fleet system works. I admit, I would never have thought of using the fleet system this way, but that doesn't automatically make it an exploit, unless the code itself is doing something unintended. It sounds to me like everything worked the way it was intended and designed to work - he just used that design against you.
Of course, the only way to get a definitive answer on "Is this an exploit" is to file a petition, and see what CCP says. --Vel
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NightmareX
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.09.27 14:12:00 -
[23]
Originally by: John Caffeine Edited by: John Caffeine on 27/09/2010 13:58:10
Originally by: NightmareX
So i'm aware of pretty much everything now.
Quoting for hillarity.
Tell me something i don't know about PVP / fleet mechanics now?
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Michela
Bosun Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.09.27 15:57:00 -
[24]
Most certainly not an exploit. If you don't want to be locked out of dock ... don't join a gang/fleet.
Last thing we need are shorter timers so that there's even more station hugging. |
El Liptonez
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Posted - 2010.09.27 22:27:00 -
[25]
Edited by: El Liptonez on 27/09/2010 22:32:26 How is this not an exploit? Someone is clearly using a mechanic for something that is unintended and doesn't belong into the context of the game.
It's not really a bug, still it's exploitable. Was the moon-mineral thingie not an exploit, because it was just as possible and within the game mechanics as this? Or the wormhole exploit? The ECM burst-aggressing of ships in forcefields (because, ofc, that's not an exploit too)?
Bumping someone off a station or neutral RRing is one thing, forcing session timers upon someone else is something lots different.
I can imagine just fine how almost anyone in this thread would ragepost on the forum too if he lost his ship that way.
And lol at the guys saying "then don't join a fleet". It's like replying "gb2wow".
Edit: I'm not shouting for a fix or anything, but just like someone said, this is in the very dark grey area of exploit or not.
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NightmareX
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.09.27 23:21:00 -
[26]
Edited by: NightmareX on 27/09/2010 23:24:26
Originally by: El Liptonez Edited by: El Liptonez on 27/09/2010 22:32:26 How is this not an exploit? Someone is clearly using a mechanic for something that is unintended and doesn't belong into the context of the game.
It's not really a bug, still it's exploitable. Was the moon-mineral thingie not an exploit, because it was just as possible and within the game mechanics as this? Or the wormhole exploit? The ECM burst-aggressing of ships in forcefields (because, ofc, that's not an exploit too)?
Bumping someone off a station or neutral RRing is one thing, forcing session timers upon someone else is something lots different.
I can imagine just fine how almost anyone in this thread would ragepost on the forum too if he lost his ship that way.
And lol at the guys saying "then don't join a fleet". It's like replying "gb2wow".
Edit: I'm not shouting for a fix or anything, but just like someone said, this is in the very dark grey area of exploit or not.
When did moving players around in a fleet to other squads being an exploit?. If the op is so stupid to accept a fleet invite from someone that is red to him, then he deserve to die for his stupidity.
Ofc, if there had been a way to get the players into the fleet without letting them accept it them self, it would be an exploit, but HEY, he accepted the fleet invite HIM SELF.
It's his own stupidity.
Everyone with some kind of brain would understand that by accepting a fleet invite will get you a 30 sec session timer automaticly. So if the op had known this, do you think he would have joined the fleet then?
It's all about understanding game / fleet mechanics here.
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Aries Darkstar
Deceiver's Scalding Valley
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Posted - 2010.09.27 23:40:00 -
[27]
NightmareX
Go back to school and learn to read bud... then read my post again.
he changed my squad possion from member, to squad leader, and back to member (wash rinse and repeat) I didnt die from the initial timer. Try to keep up.
Ill also add that i took a can from a 1 man corp... thats right, a 1 man corp. Figure it out guys. I would have added that at the beginning but this post is about something I had never seen, not something people already know is an exploit.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.09.27 23:47:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Aries Darkstar NightmareX
Go back to school and learn to read bud... then read my post again.
he changed my squad possion from member, to squad leader, and back to member (wash rinse and repeat) I didnt die from the initial timer. Try to keep up.
Ill also add that i took a can from a 1 man corp... thats right, a 1 man corp. Figure it out guys. I would have added that at the beginning but this post is about something I had never seen, not something people already know is an exploit.
and you still had been stupid enough to join a fleet. there is no finger pointing. look into a mirror and you found who is responsible for your ship loss.
p.s.: whining here would not solve the issue at all. you would need to file a petition to get an answer if this is marked an exploit or not. but i guess from your whining you havent done that so far.
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NightmareX
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.09.28 00:08:00 -
[29]
Edited by: NightmareX on 28/09/2010 00:15:08
Originally by: Aries Darkstar NightmareX
Go back to school and learn to read bud... then read my post again.
he changed my squad possion from member, to squad leader, and back to member (wash rinse and repeat) I didnt die from the initial timer. Try to keep up.
Ill also add that i took a can from a 1 man corp... thats right, a 1 man corp. Figure it out guys. I would have added that at the beginning but this post is about something I had never seen, not something people already know is an exploit.
I can read very good sir. It's just that you wont get it that it's your own dumb fault that you lost the ship.
Like i say to many, you have to start somewhere and start learning things. I have been doing some very dumb mistakes in my noob days to and have learned by my mistakes. And i hope you did that to this time.
We can't just say something is an exploit because of someone doing a biiiiiiiiig mistake and gets blown up.
EDIT: And can i ask you why you didn't just leave the gang instantly after you joined it?, or even better, why did you join the gang in the first place?
What did you expect by joining it?, a nice buddy that can do level 4 missions with you?
If you had left it instantly after you had joined the fleet, you wouldn't be killed then.
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El Liptonez
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Posted - 2010.09.28 01:43:00 -
[30]
He expected a fight as nice as it gets (with neut logis and whatever may come). The opponent stacking session timers is not something that could be expected from that.
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