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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Zisi
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:07:00 -
[1]
I realize there have been plenty of posts about this already.... But seriously what a messed up game mechanic. This all seeing eye turns nullsec / lowsec into carebare happy fun time adventure land where only the most utterly oblivious people will ever get jumped or threatened in any way. It in order to successfully jump anyone you basically just have to sit in a system cloaked for hours before the locals will get accustomed to your presence which is lame as fu[k.
Local is all seeing, always immediately perfectly accurate, requires no skills, no action of any kind at all besides just watching the window.
Storytime: Earlier today my scan alt was cloaked afk in this lowsec system while I was doing things IRL. When I got back I found 3 players, all only 1 to 2 months old, 2 catalysis and a vexor, they were running sites to actually make isk (which is remarkable because lowsec is almost worthless, but that's another topic). So anyway I thought, hey cool some guys to gank. They were in a plex so I triangulated their approximate location with dscan, launched combats outside of their dscan range, and dropped the probes on them and got 100% on the vexor in the first scan, and pulled the probes. When I got there, they were warping off, they had seen the probes. So heres the moral of the story: If 3 total noobs can learn to use dscan that well, YOU CAN TOO
</end rage post>
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Captain Yifan
Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:10:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Captain Yifan on 03/09/2010 01:11:14 Well, yes. I agree that using local as intel is lame. The trouble has been, how do you compensate the removal both for the bear hunter and the carebear? Surely, you know that there're mission-runners in the low-sec because you see them in local?
And, I dont think your example is appropriate? You see probes by using the directional scanner, not local.
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Cat o'Ninetails
Caldari Rancer Defence League Eternal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:11:00 -
[3]
yes but then pirates would get the advantage and nobody really wants that tbh lol
x
EVE Garden |
Jane Vherokior
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:13:00 -
[4]
Don't like local? Move into a WH. Bye.
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails yes but then pirates would get the advantage and nobody really wants that tbh lol
x
to be fair, it would mean that pirates need to spend more time trying to figure out if there is a target in the system or not. As well, it would give bait parties a better chance of catching pirates offguard, and it would mean that interceptors might actually be able to catch something before their target sees them on scan. But probably not to that last one
Originally by: CCP Shadow Have you ever wished you could have prevented a train wreck before it actually happened? I need to stop this one before the craziness begins.
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Ocih
Amarr The Program Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:24:00 -
[6]
I'd agree if you couldnt scan out a whole system in less time than it takes to align a Hulk. |
Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:29:00 -
[7]
I say we remove local, but not in 0.0, no we need a new type of space, one that emphazises scanning.
Then we add incredible wealth to that space to make it interesting, and stat changes to change the way we look at PVP.
It is so hard core, all the bada$$ local whiners will flock there!
-- Tactical Responder who is Organized and a Leading-edge Linguist |
Captain Yifan
Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:42:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm I say we remove local, but not in 0.0, no we need a new type of space, one that emphazises scanning.
Then we add incredible wealth to that space to make it interesting, and stat changes to change the way we look at PVP.
It is so hard core, all the bada$$ local whiners will flock there!
Erm, my sarcasm detector is slightly off, but dosent that make low-sec even more.....pointless to go to?
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Psymn
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:49:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Captain Yifan
Originally by: Alara IonStorm I say we remove local, but not in 0.0, no we need a new type of space, one that emphazises scanning.
Then we add incredible wealth to that space to make it interesting, and stat changes to change the way we look at PVP.
It is so hard core, all the bada$$ local whiners will flock there!
Erm, my sarcasm detector is slightly off, but dosent that make low-sec even more.....pointless to go to?
Your sarcasm detector does need some calibration. It doesnt change low but the poster you quoted wants a new kind of space, a space where really no one can hear you scream. Lets call it wormhole space :)
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Captain Merkin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:53:00 -
[10]
Im all for the removal of local to be honest..
however what will replace the chat?
that is literally the only thing I can say in its favour, no local = better overall game, removal of macro farmers (to a point) and so many more things to play with.
Gate would become more the in thing to camp once again :) Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981.
The Kamikaze pilot
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Zisi
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:55:00 -
[11]
Quote: Surely, you know that there're mission-runners in the low-sec because you see them in local?
It's honestly fairly irrelevant for the hunter, random people in stations are mostly irrelevant, except of course for assessing the threat of docked mates grabbing a ship and so on. However when all someone has to do is dock when someone unknown comes into system... its far from equitable.
Quote: And, I dont think your example is appropriate? You see probes by using the directional scanner, not local.
The example was an illustration of why removing local would not be unfair to carebares. If 1 month old players can use dscan properly nobody
Quote: yes but then pirates would get the advantage and nobody really wants that tbh lol
Not by a long shot, an alert defender almost always has the advantage, you can see probes on dscan, you can see ships on dscan, and you can see them before they land on you. The exception would be a covops strategic cruiser vs a BS or BC in something you don't require probes for, like a belt. You can decloak and bump them while waiting for lock. That said its an expensive ship, and theres counters for it (having friends not least of which).
Quote: Don't like local? Move into a WH. Bye.
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Zisi
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:57:00 -
[12]
Quote: however what will replace the chat?
It would work like wh's in that sense, local would be there, you just wouldn't show up unless you talked.
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:59:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 03/09/2010 01:58:48
Originally by: Zisi Second Post
Ever here of Edit?
Prevents spam!
-- Tactical Responder who is Organized and a Leading-edge Linguist |
Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.09.03 02:01:00 -
[14]
why must it be there? the only reason it is there in wh space is because ccp has made local an unclosable window..
Granted. I would leave local open just to see if anyone talks, because well, free intel still is free
Originally by: CCP Shadow Have you ever wished you could have prevented a train wreck before it actually happened? I need to stop this one before the craziness begins.
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Zisi
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Posted - 2010.09.03 03:03:00 -
[15]
I think it should be there, it's useful when you want to talk / negotiate, or whatever, but it shouldn't be a source of free effortless intel. Nothing else important in the game is that effortless.
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Kehro Urgus
Gallente Ab Obice Saevior
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Posted - 2010.09.03 04:13:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Kehro Urgus on 03/09/2010 04:13:29 This is not that unlike the daily whine about ninja salvagers.
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.09.03 04:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kehro Urgus Edited by: Kehro Urgus on 03/09/2010 04:13:29 This is not that unlike the daily whine about ninja salvagers.
Or Cloaks, Ganks, Hybrids, ROTFkets or Lag.
Ad Nausium!
-- Tactical Responder who is Organized and a Leading-edge Linguist |
Aiwha
Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.09.03 05:26:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Aiwha on 03/09/2010 05:26:12 B-but, then AFK cloaking would cease to exist! D:
I like me. |
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CCP Jericho
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Posted - 2010.09.03 05:42:00 -
[19]
Moved from General Discussion to Features & Ideas.
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Zisi
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Posted - 2010.09.03 05:55:00 -
[20]
Quote: This is not that unlike the daily whine about ninja salvagers. (Or Cloaks, Ganks, Hybrids, ROTFkets or Lag.)
Correct, as it turns out there are many things in eve that need to be fixed and refined. The removal of local would fix cloaking since they wouldn't know that "scary cloaker" was in system at all. Rockets are bugged, Lag is a problem (and ccp seems more serious about it lately, thanks in part due to the fairly constant criticism coming from the forums), and yes you should be able to shoot people that salvage your wrecks, the way tractors magically don't work on wrecks that aren't "yours" should also be changed. Sometimes You need to be persistent, when you know something needs changing for the better.
I call on CCP to make this change among others for the long term benefit of eve. Most people resist aggressive change and find it difficult to imagine its benefits. Eve does not do a good job of being a risk free raid and loot mmo. So instead focus on what eve does well at, expand the sandbox, make things more interesting, emergent, and flexible.
I challenge the supporters of local to explain why exactly they feel entitled to have instant knowledge of everyone present in an entire solar system (its supposed to be a pretty big place you know). Can you honestly claim that no risk ratting in whats supposed to be lawless space is actually fun? Do you really need this crutch?
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Rowbin Hod
Cloak and Daggers Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2010.09.03 05:57:00 -
[21]
Local isn't the issue. The complaints are generally summarised as "it's too easy for people to work out there's someone around who may want to hunt them down." Local is the subject of this at the moment as it's the easiest tool to use. When local isn't there any more, people will use dscan, and they'll use it effectively.
Then we'll have the whines about dscan being too easy to locate probes with.
Quote: Local is all seeing, always immediately perfectly accurate, requires no skills, no action of any kind at all besides just watching the window.
Just like dscan.
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Zisi
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Posted - 2010.09.03 06:17:00 -
[22]
Incorrect, dscan has a number of limitations that local does not. It has a limited range, it does not show character names, it does not show cloaked ships, it requires the pilot to be actively hitting scan to refresh the information, it requires the pilot to setup filters to use it effectively.
However when it comes to being alerted to a threat, instant local on the other hand has no limitations whatsoever.
I have no doubt people will adapt and become great at dscan. Thats part of the point, its fundamentally better gameplay. Is dscan perfect? hell no, you could do a lot more interesting things, integrating dscan, the overview, the system map, and targeting into a well designed heads up display for example. However removing instant local is a simple change that will by itself make a big difference.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.09.03 06:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Cat o'Ninetails yes but then pirates would get the advantage and nobody really wants that tbh lol
x
I am not sure, Cat.
Every time this subject comes up (especially during Troll Season), I think about how local always works both ways. A system defender knows immediately if someone enters the system (let's leave bots out of this because they are not really playing). They can react to that. Good for defense, obviously.
But the offender, someone coming into the system looking for targets, for any reason, instantly knows that someone else in in the system too. So while the defender instantly knows someone came in, the offender instantly knows someone else is in.
Remove local, and both parties are affected by this. They don't instantly know. But they can still find out with a little effort. (back to bots: these would be most affected). Suffice to also say that the person already in the system might be the offender (station camper, blobber, etc) and the defender might be doing a patrol or trying to run goods to a home system.
People say that the scanning mechanic will bring nodes down. Obviously running a D-Scan is a database query no doubt. Having to do that every two seconds (because a good prober who knows how to use the D-Scan in conjuntion with probes can get a warpable on a large ship in 6 seconds) will cause madness. It would be, perhaps, worse than mining.
But to probe out ships takes a high slot module. This does reduce DPS a bit and the CPU load of the expanded Core Probe Launcher is also a hit on a ships capability. The ability to find other ships costs a high slot and some CPU.
Therefore I would hope that if Local is removed (not putting anyone at any advantage but simply swinging a double-edged sword another way) those who fear being on the receiving end of a scan-down or defending a system from probers should also have the option of installing a high slot module that uses CPU as well and acts as an "active scan detector" or something of that sort similar to the electronic early warning system of a fighter jet.
Something like that might give operability back to the bots but the bots could also lose their ability to mine bounties with one less slot and higher CPU load. Also if such module acts like Defender Missiles, requiring a need to be reactived... you can figure pretty much on the rest.
This I think would make the game more interesting, persisting with the Cost-Consequence-Reward mentality of the game as well.
(and someone looking to fit both modules, exploration freaks like me for example, would not like having to put CPU upgrades in every low slot so don't think there is ever going to be a PWNship).
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Zisi
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Posted - 2010.09.03 06:45:00 -
[24]
Something like the above would take a bit more effort to implement, however the direction I think is a good one. A form of "Tripwire" would be another possibility, it would be like anchoring a warp bubble, however its effect would be to cause an audible/visual alarm to the player who anchored it if someone is in it. Therefore it could be put at a gate to alert people to new arrivals, etc.
Your idea about a module that would cause a fighter plane style beep would potentially work as well, at least it would be better than what we have now. It would best be accompanied by a revamp of the dscanner and overview.
Either way, its the right direction.
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Antihrist Pripravnik
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.09.03 07:01:00 -
[25]
Proposing to change a game mechanics that will ruin other people's gaming experience to boost your own is selfish.
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Total Disaster
Caldari Shiny Toy Guns
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Posted - 2010.09.03 07:36:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Total Disaster on 03/09/2010 07:36:36 well, maybe some sort of mix between WH-space and new hud? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=973727&page=1&sid=73762728
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.09.03 07:39:00 -
[27]
How ever did you get from "they saw my probes" to "local must go"? That little yarn actually says that local has no noticeable effect on activity as they happily went about their business even with a potential hostile around. Your Homework for next moan thread: Cook up a scenario that actually supports your agenda
As for local. Sure remove it, but make sure to add features to allow for similar data-gathering when in friendly space .. sovereignty modules in null, slight delay in low-sec and as is in high-sec.
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Marexlovox
Gallente BRO SQUAD
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Posted - 2010.09.03 07:55:00 -
[28]
How about this, bring back System Scanners for POS's, charge a fee for Sov holders, make that to where in order for local to show that must be installed in that system.
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Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente The Darkness Within Death Rhubarb
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Posted - 2010.09.03 08:46:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida As for local. Sure remove it, but make sure to add features to allow for similar data-gathering when in friendly space .. sovereignty modules in null, slight delay in low-sec and as is in high-sec.
Are you just trying to agree with everyone? What would be the point of removing local as an intel-gathering tool if you immediately replace it with something else that does a similar job?
The defender has all of the advantages in nullsec: intel chat + local means it's impossible to catch anyone in a bs or smaller ship that's paying attention and competent. 100% safety doesn't really go along with the nullsec theme.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.09.03 09:36:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Are you just trying to agree with everyone?
Only if you don't understand what I meant. Expend a slot on a ship to get improved directional scanner results for instance. There are a multitude of possible roads we can take .. Eve is not a gank-bear game even if many think it is, there are checks and balances to almost everything.
Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen The defender has all of the advantages in nullsec: intel chat + local means it's impossible to catch anyone in a bs or smaller ship that's paying attention and competent. 100% safety doesn't really go along with the nullsec theme.
Null-sec is often compared to the Wild West. But surely once an area has been settled, the saloon is dishing out booze and the brothel is up and running the ability of random travellers to murder/****/pillage at will is removed. Adding sovereignty modules that limit/remove local delay could be one such safeguard, but again there are tons of possibilities.
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