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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.18 19:55:00 -
[1]
Akita's logic is Invalid
simply because of FALCON
... a cloaky falcon carriers over 100 T2 BPOs in some uncharted space - akita owns them all
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.18 19:57:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Akita T
So one has to wonder - if you do it like that, why even bother going through all that trouble instead of just letting it be ?
People want a level playing field, not some smart asses, with extra assets up their ass.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.19 12:25:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Cassandra Caffarelli
Originally by: Opertone
Originally by: Akita T
So one has to wonder - if you do it like that, why even bother going through all that trouble instead of just letting it be ?
People want a level playing field, not some smart asses, with extra assets up their ass.
EVE isn't supposed to be 'fair'.
Welcome to EVE.
...facepalm
Oh, fair sounds like social security and moral codex.
Level sounds like equal opportunities and uniform environment (rule set)
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.19 14:51:00 -
[4]
shut the **** up
when no BPO exist every inventor can part take and make some income, it becomes an economic challenge...
with BPOs inventors can not participate, because BPOs are more cost efficient, leaving no profit on small volume markets
Solution, set the BPO material effeciency and time efficiency to level below that of BPCs
This will seriously cut the margins, level the playing field and will not strip BPO holders off their property.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.21 07:15:00 -
[5]
I like it removed...
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.22 06:33:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Akita T
Quote: Solution, set the BPO material effeciency and time efficiency to level below that of BPCs This will seriously cut the margins, level the playing field and will not strip BPO holders off their property.
So why not ramp up the ones of invented BPCs ? Why insist on nerfing T2 BPOs when you could buff invention instead ?
Why not even them out? In some fields the increasing manufacturing costs of negative Material Efficiency ruin the day. Invention costs should stay in place, change decryptors mutators to allow negative ME at much higher PE, thus accelerating the build speed at material waste. Also longer production times may result in higher ME.
We need to buff invention and get ME out of negative values.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.24 20:43:00 -
[7]
ok, horse -> alive
BPO II get in line with BPC from invention
no unfair factor, you do invention and research, your products are not much more expensive than those from BPO holders. ME should match BPOs. Equal material costs, fair competition.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.25 21:19:00 -
[8]
it all goes back to... i own T2 BPO and they aren't going anywhere
solved... that's the one good reason.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.27 15:44:00 -
[9]
I love the way Akita T relies on false statements
BPO II disturbs the inventors. Removal of BPO II disturbs current owners. Final price of tech 2 products is mainly dependent on inflation. Not the BPO II.
Rare opportunity 'prize' ships and token items do not make value. They are unique, yet do not generate new items and thus have negligible effect on a 300 000 subscriber game. BPO II make items, generate profit and set certain limits on tech 2 costs. BPO always surpass invention in costs thus setting the baseline.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.27 21:55:00 -
[10]
simple market argument...
a stock of 100 ships on the market, supply exceeds the demand... current price 90 mill, slow sales
BPO owner can lower down the price and remain at profit, since his costs are a lot lower, say 60 mill per unit. BPC inventor may opt to undercut the new price, to clear his lot at expense of thinner profit margin. Inventors have the option to wait another 3 months for their stock to clear out or to sell the ships at barely zero profit.
BPO holders find this 'barely profitable to invent' point and gain their surplus from there. Their stock gets cleared first, they install a new production batch, regardless of material price trends they have safe room to get lower and make money. Inventors become the trend setters. In reality, this is mostly the case in active hubs, inventors have slim profit and zero chance to beat the BPO holders in price war.
If the demand is higher than supply, BPO owners end up making more profit, over short period of time the materials match the new price level, which means more competition between inventors and steady profits for BPO owners. All that from lower base material costs associated with research BPO 2 ME PE.
To make the situation fair - BPO need to match the BPC costs. Else it becomes a golden mine, which gives + ~25% to whatever current selling price of tech 2 product is.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.28 16:31:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Opertone on 28/04/2011 16:31:40 botting makes me money... it's a game mechanic, I worked hard to set my business up, it makes ore and isk cheap for everyone...
BPO II make me money, it's a game mechanic, I worked hard to set my business up, it makes stuff cheap for everyone...
BPO II are a gold mine, which originates from roughly 25% ME difference. Nerf BPO or remove it.
Or give me magic necklace that makes 50 mill per day.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.04.29 21:05:00 -
[12]
That magic necklace makes me special
and BPOs II look very special...
People who don't own BPOs feel unsexy, they invent alone in the corner.
Can I have the necklace?
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.04 21:03:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Opertone on 04/05/2011 21:03:45 back to reasoning.
BPO II only benefit the select few - BPO makers sell items at nearly the same price as inventors, netting the ME cost difference (which can be 25-30%). BPO makers sell at market prices, not cheaper at all. Conclusion BPOs II don't make things cheaper.
BPO II set regional and inter regional price levels. Because of BPO II standardized costs tech 2 prices tend to be almost identical. Different regions do not have big price gaps. Local market trends set by independent inventors can not form. This leads to less diversity. Conclusion BPO II affect too much of the economy.
BPO II do not allow fair competition and price adjustments. BPO II keep pumping things out, regardless of demand, not allowing a shortage to appear and thus reducing Price - Production level relation. For example, when certain item runs out of stock, getting an extra one will become more expensive. New producers might be interested to fill the gap as soon as it appears, making industry more challenging and rewarding.
In fact BPO II are natural monopolies, which compete with certain high cost manufacturers. This competition looks like factories versus handicraft (low tech work). BPO II are monopoly because they have lower ME costs, zero invention costs and zero upkeep.
BPO II ruin the game for inventors. Prices become standard, not able to deviate much since as much as 30% of market volume can be controlled by BPO holders.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.06 13:23:00 -
[14]
it is impossible to argue with some sort of people, who advocate their own justness
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.06 18:51:00 -
[15]
then remove BPO IIs. make game even for everyone.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.06 21:47:00 -
[16]
you can't defeat AKITA with logic... reason: owns over 300 bill in ISK, has BPO IIs. Wants them to stay. nuff said
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.09 20:02:00 -
[17]
thread gone absurd!
Gallente ships don't suck! It's the pilots... BPO II do not hurt! It's the inventards!
T2 BPO are no longer needed because there is no shortage of tech 2 items.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.10 05:26:00 -
[18]
lots of words... unconvincing
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.10 17:21:00 -
[19]
over production, price wars between inventors (after market)
tech 2 BPOs just make market rivalry harder, leaving a slimmer portion to be shared by inventors.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.11 05:18:00 -
[20]
notice how Akita T is the only one defending tech 2 BPOs
reasons for BPOs 2 to stay - none.
reasons for BPO 2 to go - a lot of people do not support them.
AKITA bull****s you all the time... I sick of this lame argumentation.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.11 07:36:00 -
[21]
lies
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.14 09:39:00 -
[22]
T2 BPOs have to go... they don't make game better for the player base. They give unneeded efficiency advantage, which translates into perpetual profit.
No matter how much you price your BPO 2, it does not mean that 'everybody' can get one. Nor that BPOs do not give unnecessary advantage despite high initial investment. Whether you paid much or little, infinite, effortless profit is a bad game design. (In your case sellers, wanted to capitalize on their product and asked 5 years yield in advance, it's your fault, doesn't mean that BPOs are worthless investment and do not bring in money for nothing)
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.16 07:20:00 -
[23]
I don't believe a single Akita's word
simply put - BPOs are limited, only few people can have them. People may ask, offer a lot of isk for BPOs, but their speculative approach has nothing to do with investment pay off.
'BPO 2 - bad investment'
Explain you build a factory to produce components, you spend cash to acquire materials, the factory becomes a solid asset. If for some reason the manufactured components turn obsolete, the factory becomes nearly worthless, moreover it will cost fuel and energy to maintain. You can not sell your factory at the price of the initial investments (materials, work, engineering)
In eve - a single piece of paper produces items and has no investment costs and 100% mobility and liquidity. You can sell your compact BPO to any buyer without much hassle, you can relocate it problem free. Besides, you can use BPO II as loan collateral.
In case of eve you have all you need to transfer BPO 2 to the next holder. Transferring capital plant is virtually impossible, deconstructing to get investments back - hopeless.
Your BPO 2 is a liquid asset, patch of perpetual profit margin. (you invest into one with no risk, you can get money back)
Your factory is not as liquid, becomes a strategic investment costs of which may or may not pay off in future (you sink your money into factory). There is no warranty that you can recover construction costs back and that profits will overcome the initial investments.
'BPO 2 - unsecured profit'
BPO 2 is only different from BPC 2 and BPO 1 in the massive build costs difference. Any product from BPO has no invention costs, is less time consuming, has lower material costs. It leads to mass market BPCs products being 25% or more costly than products assembled with BPO 2 technology. The cost difference opens a big field for price competition and allows the BPO 2 producers to lock in the profit associated with 25% cost savings as long as the product sells.
The profit from BPO 2 patch is naturally stored in BPOs properties. It results in having perpetual profit. In addition to the profit, BPO 2 retains its value, so investment to obtain BPO can be recovered. And finally BPO 2 can only go up in price over time as more people enter the game and monetary mass accumulates.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.17 07:19:00 -
[24]
Confirming that Akita states controversial things
In modern world you can sell a factory - but you can't extract your investment costs back if there is no buyer... Deconstructing a plant, or relocating the plant to another continent is impossible. You invest billions into construction or into research, you want your product to sell, but it does not sell. You can't get your investment costs back. Your stuff you just built is worthless. Can't find anyone to buy it either.
BPO II have intrinsic value and ability to produce things. You can speculate to get a lot of money from BPO. You do not loose money over buying a BPO II. You may loose money due to price being to high or your poor ability to estimate speculative income in your future. But you keep the BPO's value + speculative added value (extra charge). Fair price of BPO + sellers added.
This only proves that Akita is uneducated, or trying to trick uneducated into believing.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.17 09:11:00 -
[25]
enjoy the read
I can't no more...
basically sophists (greek lords of fallacy) initiated democracy which has overridden human societies.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.19 22:37:00 -
[26]
there is no good reason that OP may accept - his argument BPO II must stay
Point of the thread - counter every statement
IMHO they need to go. But you may not share my opinion and no reasoning will you accept. If we contradict in opinions, we rather need to vote. Count total votes whether BPOs need to stay or to go.
1st stage vote - BPOs keep current status or NERFed 2nd stage vote - BPOs go out completely or GET on par with invention
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.20 10:25:00 -
[27]
to your remark - markets can't be wrong.
Quality of the product has nothing to do with BPO's advantage over invention. Stimulate demand, fix hybrids, create market hoax (youtube rail propaganda). Certain game changes made things unbalanced, the popularity dropped.
Competition through invention - there is nothing 'moronic' about it. Unneeded advantage of BPOs - now that's totally wrong. Needs to be removed.
Please, do not comment on ISKs. It is redundant. That some people have advantage while 99% of other don't is bad game design. BPO is like giving spare, invincible moon in high sec to certain people. +1 bill per month for free.
ROI - so irrelevant. I need not comment on it. Dismiss ROI argument please.
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Opertone
Caldari World - of - Empire Cassiopeia.
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Posted - 2011.05.20 19:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Akita T
IS IT impossible to acquire ? I think not. HARD or EXPENSIVE, I can agree to that. But impossible ? Hell no.
Transferring ownership doesn't change the matter. Few people had them, fewer will have them. Not everyone. STATE RAVEN does not generate profit, it's a relic.
No matter who has BPO II, it is wrong for the rest.
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