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Archangel Auditores
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Posted - 2010.05.24 00:42:00 -
[1]
Hey guys so I am about to start l4 missions.
I do shield tanking at the moment and I have cross-trained to fly both ships equally well.
Which of the 2 is better?
Why is it better for PvE and strictly only PvE.
I see the Nightmare built for shield tanking and the Machariel CAN indeed do it however I do not know....
I would love to see all your thoughts and feelings.
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Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium
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Posted - 2010.05.24 00:52:00 -
[2]
Nightmare against blood/sansha.
Machariel against anything else. ________ Chicago players channel: 'Windy City'
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Archangel Auditores
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Posted - 2010.05.24 01:00:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon Nightmare against blood/sansha.
Machariel against anything else.
Why do you say that?
Nightmare looks like more of a PvE boat for shield tanking and the damage mods....
If I stuck on 3 gyro's and 2 tracking enhancers I have equal and greater damage than the Machariel including if I train Caldari BS's.
Hmmm....Nightmare might be better overall PvE....i just hate the look of it!
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Lord Yusheng
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Posted - 2010.05.24 01:05:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Archangel Auditores
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon Nightmare against blood/sansha.
Machariel against anything else.
Why do you say that?
Nightmare looks like more of a PvE boat for shield tanking and the damage mods....
If I stuck on 3 gyro's and 2 tracking enhancers I have equal and greater damage than the Machariel including if I train Caldari BS's.
Hmmm....Nightmare might be better overall PvE....i just hate the look of it!
Because Nightmare is only able to deal mostly EM damage which many factions have good resistances to. Against Blood Raiders and Sansha who are weak to EM / Therm nothing can beat an Amarr boat / Nightmare. The Mach can choose it's damage type so against others it's much more efficient.
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Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2010.05.24 01:05:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Archangel Auditores
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon Nightmare against blood/sansha.
Machariel against anything else.
Why do you say that?
Nightmare looks like more of a PvE boat for shield tanking and the damage mods....
If I stuck on 3 gyro's and 2 tracking enhancers I have equal and greater damage than the Machariel including if I train Caldari BS's.
Hmmm....Nightmare might be better overall PvE....i just hate the look of it!
Nightmare bonuses:
"Special Ability: 100% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking per level Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage per level"
Because it's a laser ship it's great against Sanshas and Blood Raiders. The Machariel is a Projectile ship with free damage type choice. -
Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S
R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.24 01:28:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Denuo Secus Because it's a laser ship it's great against Sanshas and Blood Raiders. The Machariel is a Projectile ship with free damage type choice.
IIRC its only about 80% damage type selection... with the obvious omission of no high damage kin ammo.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Denuo Secus
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Posted - 2010.05.24 01:54:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Denuo Secus Because it's a laser ship it's great against Sanshas and Blood Raiders. The Machariel is a Projectile ship with free damage type choice.
IIRC its only about 80% damage type selection... with the obvious omission of no high damage kin ammo.
-Liang
Yip correct. But I use Titanium Sabot then. Less damage, better tracking. In kin weak missions I'm faster with the smaller stuff then and a bit sub-optimal against the BSs. Considering the ship mix (big/small) in missions it's ok. I've no exact numbers but it works for me. -
Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S
R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
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Shadowy Assistant
Darkrime Industries
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Posted - 2010.05.24 02:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Archangel Auditores Hey guys so I am about to start l4 missions.
Quote: Machariel or Nightmare?
:facepalm:
Raven.
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Dacril
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Posted - 2010.05.24 02:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Shadowy Assistant
Originally by: Archangel Auditores Hey guys so I am about to start l4 missions.
Quote: Machariel or Nightmare?
:facepalm:
Raven.
How dare you?!
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enemy chorus
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Posted - 2010.05.24 02:40:00 -
[10]
Make sure you fit a smart bomb to deal with those pesky frigates.
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Gligan
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Posted - 2010.05.24 03:06:00 -
[11]
both mach and NM for pve are usually shield tankers
MAchariel 7 turrets(usually AC for pve). 25% rof, 25% damage bonus - 10.5 turrets? With short range ammo(only ammo you'll ever use , unless you use barrage for longer ranged engagements) you'll see drop in AC dps at 45km or so. You'll be able to hit BSs at 0, cruisers at 5km , frigates at 20 + unless they're coming right at you, then you can hit them at ridiculously close range. Rate of fire (unless you use super duper expensive ACs) will be 3.3 secs or so. You'll have 4 sentry drones which can help with longer ranged targets , 5 light for inties that are under range. Both targeting and gun range at 70km or so. you'll have all types of damage available to you and AE bonus room will be easy. Oh 1 little detail , buy the phased plasma, EMp and fusion ammo BPOs(properly researched) because you'll be using a lot of ammo. Speeds 200/500 with AB
Nightmare, you'll be using the tachs. 4x2 +25% from caldari BS 5(or 10 gun equivalent). Rate of fire around 7 secs(don't miss) - as people already pointed out your only damage is EM/thermal(with 5 med drones giving you a chance to vary the diet). With 30 ish km optimal and 20 faloff amarr navy multifriq last a long long time and they will be the primary crystals you'll be using. Lesser dronebay but you still can use 5 meds 5 smalls. The main problem with this ship is that even after the tracking bonus and the tracking enhancer you'll still be missing a lot. Forget about hitting cruisers at 15 or less, and even BSs in your face will be a problem. I haven't tried the pulse with scorch as an alternative for shorter ranged missions. (mostly because i don't have the skill), but most people recomend the tachs. It's nice to use max damage ammo for the whole mission. Nightmare is slower than mach with about 120 speed without the AB. but has longer ranged targeting and guns.
so if you wanna be quick and agile and kill even frigs with your main gunm and have all kinds of damage go for mach. If you wanna save on ammo, feel more like sniping and don't care if you spend a little bit more time while waiting for the drones to take out frigs go for NM :)
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2010.05.24 03:15:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Denuo Secus
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Denuo Secus Because it's a laser ship it's great against Sanshas and Blood Raiders. The Machariel is a Projectile ship with free damage type choice.
IIRC its only about 80% damage type selection... with the obvious omission of no high damage kin ammo.
-Liang
Yip correct. But I use Titanium Sabot then. Less damage, better tracking. In kin weak missions I'm faster with the smaller stuff then and a bit sub-optimal against the BSs. Considering the ship mix (big/small) in missions it's ok. I've no exact numbers but it works for me.
AFAIK Phased Plasma is like 40% more effective against a typical Guristas resist spread than Titanium Sabot.
Also couldn't you use a Machariel for Blood/Sansha missions just as well? EMP does deal more EM damage than multifrequency does... ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.24 04:10:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 24/05/2010 04:11:10
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Also couldn't you use a Machariel for Blood/Sansha missions just as well? EMP does deal more EM damage than multifrequency does...
The Mach would do serviceably against them, true. But it fails in the range department compared to Nightmare, especially at the range that those NPCs like to stay at.
Fighting in falloff sucks compared to fighting in optimal, even if it's 107KM falloff.
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Vir Hellnamin
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.05.24 05:55:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Vir Hellnamin on 24/05/2010 05:55:41 Nightmare vs. Machariel on PvE, Vargur wins!:D
what did I win? -- "Entering MH means instant death. It's worse than 0.0. Even the asteroids shoot back." - Alex Harumichi [GRD]
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Kana Oriken
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.24 06:59:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Vir Hellnamin Edited by: Vir Hellnamin on 24/05/2010 05:55:41 Nightmare vs. Machariel on PvE, Vargur wins!:D
what did I win?
Depends if you salvage/loot or not. I just blitz missions and make my money off bounties and LP as salvage got the nerfbat in Dominion and those juicy meta 0 guns are going the same way in Tyrannis. Mach kills thing quicker and is a much faster ship for those missions like The Score where you need to drive 40k+ to the next acceleration gate. Mach also wins in pure awesomeness due to being bigger than an Orca yet having the speed and agility of a freaking cruiser.
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Nahir
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Posted - 2010.05.24 08:32:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Nahir on 24/05/2010 08:32:14 Ive flown a nightmare, tried out both pulselasers and pulses for it and it is truely a mission grinding monster. But now i fly the machariel and have ben doing so for a few months now, and i have to say that if you fit the macha right you will finish just about ANY mission vs ANY type of rat faster then the nightmare.
At 45km+ the Nightmare does more damage then the machariel, but within 45km the Macha just demolishes the NM. This is my experience.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2010.05.24 08:36:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon Nightmare against blood/sansha.
Machariel against anything else.
NM also against most Drones, Mercs and I'm betting even Gone Berserk is faster in NM then Mach.
That said, I wonder how a Mach would perform in Damsel.
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar Bite me inc.
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Posted - 2010.05.24 11:03:00 -
[18]
NM = fit AT LEAST 1 tracking computer and 1 tracking enhancer.
That is all. __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
Storm Templar
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.24 11:55:00 -
[19]
Why not fly both? Nightmare - missions that warps you in at 35-40km+. Tachies with IN Multifreq (yeah I use them, they're pocket change that lasts for a very long time) absolutely demolishes anything and everything. Insta-popping cruisers and some battle cruisers, chuck on some mega pulse for them close range missions and I guarantee you that you'll hit cruisers orbiting at 5km with no issues (if you've got a tracking computer + tracking script on but who doesn't?)
Machariel - Angel Extravaganza, need I say more? Yeah it's pretty awesome but I think I like my Nightmare more. ________________________________________________ For the Immortal God-Emperor.....ooops, wrong universe. |
Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.05.24 12:01:00 -
[20]
Nightmare has more brute force, while the Machariel has the versatility.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.05.24 12:01:00 -
[21]
Originally by: enemy chorus Make sure you fit a smart bomb to deal with those pesky frigates.
lol yes... And dont forget installing a camera filming your face when your super duper carebear boot goes pop from concord because you hit a ninja ratter/salvager/neutral structures with the smartbomb.
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Admiral Pelleon
White Shadow Imperium
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Posted - 2010.05.24 12:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Denuo Secus
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Denuo Secus Because it's a laser ship it's great against Sanshas and Blood Raiders. The Machariel is a Projectile ship with free damage type choice.
IIRC its only about 80% damage type selection... with the obvious omission of no high damage kin ammo.
-Liang
Yip correct. But I use Titanium Sabot then. Less damage, better tracking. In kin weak missions I'm faster with the smaller stuff then and a bit sub-optimal against the BSs. Considering the ship mix (big/small) in missions it's ok. I've no exact numbers but it works for me.
AFAIK Phased Plasma is like 40% more effective against a typical Guristas resist spread than Titanium Sabot.
Also couldn't you use a Machariel for Blood/Sansha missions just as well? EMP does deal more EM damage than multifrequency does...
Tachyons though. Tachs push that DPS out farther, beyond what you'd be getting with optimal+falloff on the 800's. ________ Chicago players channel: 'Windy City'
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Lee Kin
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Posted - 2010.05.24 13:00:00 -
[23]
No matter which you choose, set it for complete gank, sensor boosters and web. All damage and targeting speed. Pair it with a scimitar. Plow through missions in minutes.Fit with short range weapons since you can now hit at 100km with them.
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Techno Panda
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Posted - 2010.05.24 14:23:00 -
[24]
At the end of the day the Nm is a marauder with 2 utility highs. Now yes it only does EM/Thermal but of guristas it still hits hard. If you want an awesome looking ship get the NM, if you wanna be a BS sizer Vagabond get the Mach.
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Songbird
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Posted - 2010.05.24 16:05:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Songbird on 24/05/2010 16:06:26 not perfect skills but pure killing damsel in mach is 13 mins, no drones. more time if you wanna actually pick up salvage. Faction phased plasma kills those machariel rats in 4 hits.
(edit , that's without any help from drones)
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Nahir
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Posted - 2010.05.24 18:07:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Qui Shon Edited by: Qui Shon on 24/05/2010 09:14:56
Originally by: Admiral Pelleon Nightmare against blood/sansha.
Machariel against anything else.
NM also works great against most Drones, Mercs and I'm betting even Gone Berserk is faster in NM then Mach.
That said, I wonder how a Mach would perform in Damsel.
Originally by: Nahir Edited by: Nahir on 24/05/2010 08:32:14 Ive flown a nightmare, tried out both pulselasers and pulses for it and it is truely a mission grinding monster. But now i fly the machariel and have ben doing so for a few months now, and i have to say that if you fit the macha right you will finish just about ANY mission vs ANY type of rat faster then the nightmare.
At 45km+ the Nightmare does more damage then the machariel, but within 45km the Macha just demolishes the NM. This is my experience.
Not having flown the Mach myself, I won't flat out say you're wrong, but, I do have serious doubts as to the validity of your claim.
To take the example I gave in another thread, can the Mach clear out rats and the structure in Zassmatass in under 2,5minutes from warp-in to warp-out? Can it clear Gone Berserk and Damsel both in under 7,5minutes warp-in to warp-out, killing all rats?
I dunno tbh, but does it do it faster then a tach or pulse-NM? Yes it does. Never actualy timed it.
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el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.05.24 18:24:00 -
[27]
I agree with Nahir, fwiw. I have nearly (if not exactly) equal skills for all, I have tried 800, 1400, MP, and tach fits in a variety of situations. For nearly any mission, I would take the Mach with autos for blitzing, no contest. In some situations, tachs and/or arty is better, but not by much.
The biggest drawback is ammo cost, however. I have not done the math, but an automach chews through ammo at a ridiculous rate. The time saved with the Mach may be offset by a possible ammo cost ... depending on the mission, of course.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.05.24 19:16:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Nahir I dunno tbh, but does it do it faster then a tach or pulse-NM? Yes it does. Never actualy timed it.
So you never timed it, but you know its faster... Post your times and then you can compare them. And id be really surprised if macha was faster than nm for example in sansha blockade or pirate invasion.
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.24 23:14:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Von Kapiche on 24/05/2010 23:15:48
Originally by: Torpir Lee Nightmare has more brute force, while the Machariel has the versatility.
Not exactly... Mach is doing 1100 on guns with faction ammo + whatever you get from imps. NM has better damage projection, though. I can't fly a NM quite as well as a Mach, but the Mach is an order of magnitude faster on it's native rats than the NM is on it's own.
I'd use the NM on ... most ... well, a lot of blood/sansha/mercs, the Mach for the other stuff and just pass up Guristas totally.
Either of them totally demolish whatever you're fighting, regardless. Also, good luck starting out in level fours in your billion isk ship, it'll keep you awake!
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Kaian Voskhod
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Posted - 2010.05.25 00:35:00 -
[30]
Quote: Not exactly... Mach is doing 1100 on guns with faction ammo + whatever you get from imps.
1000 isk per faction ammo X 7 GUNS = 7000 isks per volley.
ROF around 3 sec.
SO you loose 140 000 isk / minute.
It's so great !
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