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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.05.10 12:18:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Archbishop on 10/05/2010 12:19:43
Originally by: The Cosmopolite They were committed to defend slaver traffic, and did so, and attack freedom fighters, and did so. When they left that slaver regime they spoke of their 'dishonour' at leaving it. They uttered not a word of repudiation of slavery or the slaver regime of the CVA or the Amarr Empire. Indeed, they stated quite clearly their intent to maintain direct trade links with slavers among the CVA and allies, and operate as allies to slavers in the Amarr Empire and in the Khanid Kingdom.[/list]
The Cosmopolite
I'm curious about something Cosmo. I-Red stated "We are not slavers" as is clearly evidenced here. Why is that not enough? After all just a few weeks ago when The Star Fraction cut a backroom deal with an enclosurist NBSI territorial alliance that had actually admitted slave activities you concluded it was just boastful speech and not truth. Why did you not demand a pre-approved public repudiation of slavery by them? After all that would've settled the matter quite publically for everyone. Given you didn't demand that it makes you appear to be nothing more then a bully who uses intimidation and coercion to get what you want while "compromising" when your principles aren't convenient for you. If you were truly as opposed to slavery as you claim you'd exercise some credibility and demand the same public repudiation from everyone. Consistency on your part would dissuade many from the assumption that you are hypocritical bullies.
Speaking of consistency and slavery.... Perhaps you could let us know when the public repudiation of slavery and support of the Amarr Empire by your CEO's lover will occur? I couldn't help but notice all the Star Fraction pilots participating in her little "party" so an explanation of how your corporation can claim to oppose slavery (as you do above) yet "support" someone who claims to support the Amarr Empress and slavery might be in order. Just an observation... someone might accuse you of being a hypocrite.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL |
Sofia Roseburn
Caldari Verdant Inquiries Asomat Drive Yards
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Posted - 2010.05.10 13:01:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Archbishop I'm curious about something Cosmo. I-Red stated "We are not slavers" as is clearly evidenced here. Why is that not enough?
Are statements on their own accepted as facts now? I can say I am the CEO of a corporation supporting the Provists, but the facts say otherwise. Do you take the statement as truth because the person involved has said it, or do you take the facts? How about both?
Originally by: Archbishop After all just a few weeks ago when The Star Fraction cut a backroom deal with an enclosurist NBSI territorial alliance that had actually admitted slave activities you concluded it was just boastful speech and not truth. Why did you not demand a pre-approved public repudiation of slavery by them? After all that would've settled the matter quite publically for everyone. Given you didn't demand that it makes you appear to be nothing more then a bully who uses intimidation and coercion to get what you want while "compromising" when your principles aren't convenient for you. If you were truly as opposed to slavery as you claim you'd exercise some credibility and demand the same public repudiation from everyone. Consistency on your part would dissuade many from the assumption that you are hypocritical bullies.
Now this is a prime example of scraping the barrel. There's a huge difference between saying something to get a rise out of someone and actually having evidence to show that they are actually undertaking said actions.
Par example:
Dear Archbishop,
I have stolen all of your slaves and freed them.
Love,
Sofia
As opposed to:
Early today, battleships with known affiliation to the Asomat Drive Yards alliance assaulted a PIE starbase, successfully reinforcing it's shield layer.
Not that we have or anything, but hypothetical situations are always fun.
Ultimately though, facts beat unsubstantiated statements. I-RED haven't shown any signs of changing their political stance towards CVA, so history takes precedence.
---
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.10 16:16:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Archbishop I'm curious about something Cosmo. I-Red stated "We are not slavers" as is clearly evidenced here. Why is that not enough?
He has placed a quite substantive post on the record with an answer to this point.
As for the rest, the fact their alliance claims still to be defending "sovereignty" in providence and many of their alliance diplomats and corps still list "CVA friendly" in full public view on their descriptions and biographies should answer the question quite appropriately.
And for the rest of your mealy-mouthed deceitful honking post, all has been appropriately discussed in the threads and ISD new articles related to those matters.
True Knowledge |
John Revenent
Caldari Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2010.05.10 16:23:00 -
[124]
You are grabbing at straws trying to pull out the right one, some of our pilots still have "CVA Friendly" correct wont deny that though if you look around Providence what soveriegnty are we exactly defending. Where are our fleets?
Also dont ignore the fact you support a Sani-Sabik in "Free Providence".
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.10 16:46:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 10/05/2010 16:49:29
Originally by: John Revenent You are grabbing at straws trying to pull out the right one, some of our pilots still have "CVA Friendly" correct wont deny that though if you look around Providence what soveriegnty are we exactly defending. Where are our fleets?
The point is John Revenent you we don't trust you. I'm not sure much clearer we can say this. The Cosmopolite has reposted your words on the summit where you did everything but disavow the CVA and even tugged your beard in consternation at having failed them. You still list CVA-friendlies in your bios, you still proudly list your defense of their sovereignty. You refused to condemn them as our price to setting you neutral and withdrawing the war and while we were in the middle of executing you at the memorial the CVA fleet came and symbolically attacked Norlonto in Providence!
Pulling at straws? We have so many straws we could probably bury you in them! Listen. You don't seem to be realizing this is not a negotiation of equals here. You have nothing we want John Revenent. We don't consider you potential allies, nor trustworthy business partners, nor even well-intentioned neutrals at this point. You committed aggression against the Fraction (and other freedom fighters) in the service of the CVA. You earned your -10 standings and whatever wardecs and future hostile actions we might think to task you with. You EARNED that.
But Sophie Starsparrow came to me personally and asked me to considered withdrawing the wardec and considering you in other eyes and I did. I made that woman a bargain which I was fully prepared to keep. Despite the fact that I consider you a collaborator of CVA-dominated old providence and a deeply dishonest galnet communicator I was fully prepared to give you a chance if you make one clear and unambiguous statement before the crowd at that memorial and finally severed your links with the CVA.
You failed to do that. And in failing you made your choice.
At this point I'm not really sure what you think you are gaining by all the further lies and nonsense on Galnet but I'm certainly not going to stop you from throwing in your lot publicly with the crowd of ammatar race traitors, descredited amarrian nationalists, puling no-name forum stalkers and eve-cva bloc whingers you seem to be gathering to the I-RED banner. You are doing a wonderful job of fully associating yourself with everything we despise in the Fraction!
We didn't come to you asking for diplomatic settlement John Revenent. We were happy to shoot your slaver-tainted colours for the rest of the disapora and quite content in the standings you triggered when you fired on our vessels.
So perhaps you should ask yourself what you expect to achieve now. Because I tell you here and now that unless I see you produce a full public condemnation of the CVA and formal severing of all ties on this summit from your own lips in terms clear and unambiguous there will be no ceasefire and you may as well consider Star Fraction through the eyes of the CVA: long-term, enduring, dedicated, and stalwart foes that will never be too far away from your ambitions hereafter.
Quote: Also dont ignore the fact you support a Sani-Sabik in "Free Providence".
Our standings and relationships have nothing to do with you dog. Perhaps if we came on bended knee and begged for a ceasefire you might have cause to talk about them - until then be assured we are entirely happy to continue with our current hostile standings and mutual animosity.
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Ryan Darkwolf
Amarr Sins Of Lost Souls Einherjar Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.10 17:19:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 06/05/2010 18:26:32
[ 2010.05.05 20:27:27 ] John Revenent > Now I am undocking alone to speak with you Miss Constantine.
[ 2010.05.05 20:29:18 ] John Revenent > hmmph so much for civility
I deleted what I felt irrelevant to my comment....I have always held nearly all pilots I have ever confronted in high regards. The free pilots have never caused me any issues and if I recall I have decent standing with nearly all anti slaver corporations, that is just the way I operate.
I have watched for several years as you and your free pilost have gone and fought for what has been seen my some as a good cause and others as a lost dream, and yet I never lost my respect, nor did I ever think badly of anything that was being done.... This here has changed my thoughts of you slightly. You say he was irresponsive to talks of peace. I believe that you were hoping he would say nothing at all, but maybe if Cosmopolite had not been constantly cluttering the coms you would have seen Mr Revenent say he was undocking ALONE. That in it self would have told me that he was willing to have this "peace" talk with you.
Instead of peace you greeted him with withering fire and then state that you had no idea what his intentions were....how can you not plainly see that his intentions were that of someone wanting to talk not fight. I'm sorry to say this has brought a shadow upon what I once thought of you and your fellow pilots. ------------------- To bring equality to the world, if your character is female then you will now have a female corpse when podkilled.. What will CCP think of next? |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.10 18:27:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 10/05/2010 18:37:41
Originally by: Ryan Darkwolf I have watched for several years as you and your free pilost have gone and fought for what has been seen my some as a good cause and others as a lost dream, and yet I never lost my respect, nor did I ever think badly of anything that was being done.... This here has changed my thoughts of you slightly. You say he was irresponsive to talks of peace. I believe that you were hoping he would say nothing at all, but maybe if Cosmopolite had not been constantly cluttering the coms you would have seen Mr Revenent say he was undocking ALONE. That in it self would have told me that he was willing to have this "peace" talk with you. Instead of peace you greeted him with withering fire and then state that you had no idea what his intentions were....how can you not plainly see that his intentions were that of someone wanting to talk not fight. I'm sorry to say this has brought a shadow upon what I once thought of you and your fellow pilots.
I was actually watching local coms very carefully Ryan Darkwolf and at the moment this happened I was positioned around 5 kilometers from the Station undocking point in a Proteus class strategic cruiser quite aware that John Revenent's alliance had more pilots than we had in space, prepared in that station and very aware of the possibility for a counter attack. In these circumstances exact language is not a luxury, it is an absolute prerequisite. We did not and do not trust I-RED alliance, language and statements made must be exact leaving absolutely no room for confusion or wriggling.
The words I was looking for were these:
"Can we agree a truce to discuss?"
To which I would have replied.
"Yes,"
And then ordered the Free Captains to hold fire in the knowledge that if I-RED then issued out of the station and broke the truce then all reading this record of events would know them to have dishonoured a formally-agreed truce.
But John Revenent did not ask for a truce. He simply announced his undocking and with the words "Now I am undocking alone to speak with you Miss Constantine." nothing else. I watched his Raven class battleship sit there without further comment neither seeking truce nor speaking disavowal of the CVA (and all the while receiving shield transfers from neutrals - so much for "alone") and so I saw it simply as a stubborn gesture from a man unwilling to meet the terms he'd been given and wanting to make a point or perhaps trigger the dock range battle we all expected.
So I ordered fire upon the Raven and watched it dock out. I ordered renewed fire the second time it undocked and I ordered Revenent executed in his capsule as he drifted in the wreckage of his ship.
I fully believe John Revenent had zero intention of providing the disavowal of CVA that we sought that night and I consider that I-RED have made a choice in maintaining their relations with the Amarrian holders of Old Providence supporting their aggression against the Star Fraction.
And remember Ryan Darkwold. This was not a mutually-sought "peace talk". There were no mutual terms to be discussed. We owe precisely nothing to I-RED and will make no concession whatsoever. We set out a simple term for ceasefire that I-RED could meet if Revenent was prepared to disavow the CVA alliance and his relations with it in public at the memorial. He was prepared neither to make this statement nor request a truce and as a result his ship was destroyed and his body executed and hostilities continue.
I imagine the lesson from this might be.
"If you want a truce then ask for it."
(don't claim to have undocked ALONE while receiving shield repping from neutrals with six cloaked falcons around the station and another 30 alliance mates crammed into the station behind you)
True Knowledge |
John Revenent
Caldari Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2010.05.10 19:13:00 -
[128]
Quote: We don't consider you potential allies, nor trustworthy business partners, nor even well-intentioned neutrals at this point.
Another lie, I recived a mail the same day my Raven was destroyed by one of your directors wondering about Ishukone-Raata Industrial capabilities and how we could help in your YWSO system. Only hours after the wardec was dropped.
You want me to post them publicly?
Or would you rather stop this now?
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Ryan Darkwolf
Amarr Sins Of Lost Souls Einherjar Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.10 19:22:00 -
[129]
But as you just stated, they were docked behind him, they did not undock. Yes he may have had shield transfers on him, but what type of person wouldn't try to help him seeing the 30 to 1 fleet taking on a hostile glance against him. I've seen a few comments stating that they were too cowardly to come out, I believe that is not the case. I myself have had standstill where an agreement is to be made and only myself have had to show up, surrounded by enemies, and tell my fellow corp mates to stay docked. He undocked without any hostile intent and those that were listening to his words in the memorial must have felt compelled to at least aid him in some small way. I personally was not there, nor can I read minds, but the gut feeling I get from these events is that he wanted to "talk". I'm sure if he had any urge to fight you all he had to do was call the rest of his corpmates out...but he did not. In the end this makes you look like hypocrites. I am not saying you are, but perception is a ***** no matter how you look at it. The biggest reason most will see this as a hypocracy is because you dropped war declarations hours after his Raven had been turned to a pile of metal. Many will wonder why? What ends does that meet? I am just an observer, I am not here to fight, but be aware that because of this, many people will have their eyes on you and yours. ------------------- To bring equality to the world, if your character is female then you will now have a female corpse when podkilled.. What will CCP think of next? |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.10 19:23:00 -
[130]
Originally by: John Revenent
Quote: We don't consider you potential allies, nor trustworthy business partners, nor even well-intentioned neutrals at this point.
Another lie, I recived a mail the same day my Raven was destroyed by one of your directors wondering about Ishukone-Raata Industrial capabilities and how we could help in your YWSO system. Only hours after the wardec was dropped.
You want me to post them publicly?
Or would you rather stop this now?
(my emphasis)
If you think a remark relating to our attitude towards you at this point is given the lie by our still hoping for some level of rationality from you several days ago then I would say there is something wrong with your reasoning faculties.
To describe a simple statement of our current viewpoint as a 'lie' because our past viewpoint was more hopeful just illustrates how abusive you and your allies are when it comes to use of language.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
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Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
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Posted - 2010.05.10 19:39:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Syyl''ara on 10/05/2010 19:44:46
Originally by: Jade Constantine I was actually watching local coms very carefully Ryan Darkwolf and at the moment this happened I was positioned around 5 kilometers from the Station undocking point in a Proteus class strategic cruiser quite aware that John Revenent's alliance had more pilots than we had in space, prepared in that station and very aware of the possibility for a counter attack. In these circumstances exact language is not a luxury, it is an absolute prerequisite. We did not and do not trust I-RED alliance, language and statements made must be exact leaving absolutely no room for confusion or wriggling.
The words I was looking for were these:
"Can we agree a truce to discuss?"
To which I would have replied.
"Yes,"
And then ordered the Free Captains to hold fire in the knowledge that if I-RED then issued out of the station and broke the truce then all reading this record of events would know them to have dishonoured a formally-agreed truce.
But John Revenent did not ask for a truce. He simply announced his undocking and with the words "Now I am undocking alone to speak with you Miss Constantine." nothing else. I watched his Raven class battleship sit there without further comment neither seeking truce nor speaking disavowal of the CVA (and all the while receiving shield transfers from neutrals - so much for "alone") and so I saw it simply as a stubborn gesture from a man unwilling to meet the terms he'd been given and wanting to make a point or perhaps trigger the dock range battle we all expected.
So I ordered fire upon the Raven and watched it dock out. I ordered renewed fire the second time it undocked and I ordered Revenent executed in his capsule as he drifted in the wreckage of his ship.
I fully believe John Revenent had zero intention of providing the disavowal of CVA that we sought that night and I consider that I-RED have made a choice in maintaining their relations with the Amarrian holders of Old Providence supporting their aggression against the Star Fraction.
And remember Ryan Darkwold. This was not a mutually-sought "peace talk". There were no mutual terms to be discussed. We owe precisely nothing to I-RED and will make no concession whatsoever. We set out a simple term for ceasefire that I-RED could meet if Revenent was prepared to disavow the CVA alliance and his relations with it in public at the memorial. He was prepared neither to make this statement nor request a truce and as a result his ship was destroyed and his body executed and hostilities continue.
I imagine the lesson from this might be.
"If you want a truce then ask for it."
(don't claim to have undocked ALONE while receiving shield repping from neutrals with six cloaked falcons around the station and another 30 alliance mates crammed into the station behind you)
For future reference, bookmark this page, because apparently in order to engage in a diplomatic discussion with SF (after they demand you show up in person) requires this very specific procedure that they insist must be followed or the violence they initiate in response is your own fault.
Please be sure to note, as well, receiving any repping assistance is clearly a sign of aggression, even when its 1 ship facing 30 (also, why is one ship undocking "aggressive" but 30 ships showing up to demand the subject's presence is not?).
You must have absolutely no plan whatsoever for a contingency in case they open fire and be entirely and 100% defenseless with no way to respond to the aggression when they make this demand, as well.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.10 19:56:00 -
[132]
Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 10/05/2010 20:03:19
Originally by: Syyl'ara
Please be sure to note, as well, that if they begin attacking you and someone shield/armor reps you, it will be retro-actively determined that their response to the SF initiated aggression is justification for their actions even though it took place afterwards (since aetiology is clearly not their strong suit).
Response? I don't know about aetiology but I know that a ship being remote-repaired before someone opens fire cannot be described as a response to that fire.
Possibly you need to brush up on causation yourself... or maybe simply reading what is written would help you avoid such errors.
You want to talk about causation? OK.
John Revenent says 'Now I am undocking alone to speak with you Miss Constantine.' He undocks in his Raven-class battleship. Neutral logistics ships start playing repair fields over his ship. He says nothing. He hasn't agreed a truce. He hasn't asked for a truce. He's just said what he said, failing to commit himself to a truce, and undocks in a battleship that is immediately supported by logistics ships. Note the context is that he has a countervailing force to our own docked in and, to our best knowledge, cloaked in electronic warfare ships around the station. And we have no truce arrangement. He says nothing more. He is in dock range and supported by logistics and Jade Constantine orders our ranged firepower only to engage him. This is simply not enough to destroy his ship before he can dock even without logistics support. He docks. He then rather than asking for a truce complains about us firing on him and undocks again to play the martyr. We fire on him, he fails to dock, we destroy his ship. He fails to dock his capsule, once more playing the martyr, and we destroy the capsule.
Or to condense it:
Enemy undocks without arranging a truce. We open fire. He docks. He undocks again. We open fire. He fails to dock ship. Ship blows up. He fails to dock capsule. Capsule blows up.
All this going on while the enemy has 30-plus combat pilots in system without any agreed truce.
There's nothing complicated about this. If you want a truce, ask for a properly-arranged mutual truce, don't try to unilaterally declare one that you can suddenly unilaterally lift and then turn around and say 'No truce was agreed!'
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.10 20:46:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Ryan Darkwolf But as you just stated, they were docked behind him, they did not undock. Yes he may have had shield transfers on him, but what type of person wouldn't try to help him seeing the 30 to 1 fleet taking on a hostile glance against him.
So he undocked having failed to ask for a truce with the words of a lie on his lips. He claimed he was alone. He was not. He had neutral logistics ships supporting him and up to six Falcon class vessels cloaked in space around the station. If he'd asked for a truce there would be no need for shield repping or the falcons since we'd have accepted and we'd have gone forward with the request for him to publicly disavow the CVA and sever I-RED from relations with the previous masters of old providence.
If you are claiming then neutral ships "just happened" to begin playing shield transfer systems over John Revenent's ship because they didn't like the apparent odds in space then I have to roll my eyes and laugh.
Quote: I've seen a few comments stating that they were too cowardly to come out, I believe that is not the case. I myself have had standstill where an agreement is to be made and only myself have had to show up, surrounded by enemies, and tell my fellow corp mates to stay docked.
I think they made a decision not to fight because they didn't like the odds is the long and short of it. Revenent decided to martyr himself and play the victim on galnet even though local locals are clear in showing he neither proposed a truce nor met our required terms for ceasefire and ending hostilities. Nobody has brought any credible alternative interpretation to these events across the pair of threads on the subject.
Quote: He undocked without any hostile intent and those that were listening to his words in the memorial must have felt compelled to at least aid him in some small way. I personally was not there, nor can I read minds, but the gut feeling I get from these events is that he wanted to "talk".
He is on record as saying he had no intention of meeting of terms. Read back through the threads and see for yourself. Given that it was inevitable that blood would be spilled and since Revenent failed to ask for a truce and undocked with out-of-alliance shield repping support it was a clear gesture of stubborness that I decided to punish with the destruction of his ship and capsule.
Quote: I'm sure if he had any urge to fight you all he had to do was call the rest of his corpmates out...but he did not. In the end this makes you look like hypocrites.
There's that word again. So many use it but don't appear to understand what it means. We came to the memorial with a single demand. John Revenent disavow the CVA and distance his alliance from the CVA-dominated old providence. That was the price for peace with the Star Fraction. Our terms were not met and we executed an Amarrian collaborator and enemy of the Star Fraction. There is no hypocrisy in that action.
Quote: I am not saying you are, but perception is a ***** no matter how you look at it. The biggest reason most will see this as a hypocracy is because you dropped war declarations hours after his Raven had been turned to a pile of metal. Many will wonder why? What ends does that meet?
We wardecced I-RED with the sole purpose of allowing us to execute its executor (and anyone who stood with him) should we not receive the full public disavowal of that organization's relationship with and support for the CVA. That was made crystal clear in the op. Should I-RED attempt to organize another such event we may well wardec them again. We will keep on doing this for as long as it takes to bring John Revenent to space and the public disavowal of CVA we seek. I-RED is a hostile entity to the Star Fraction, we will fight them any time we choose at any place of our choosing. We will wardec then whenever it suits our military or political interest in the future.
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.10 20:52:00 -
[134]
Originally by: John Revenent
Quote: We don't consider you potential allies, nor trustworthy business partners, nor even well-intentioned neutrals at this point.
Another lie, I recived a mail the same day my Raven was destroyed by one of your directors wondering about Ishukone-Raata Industrial capabilities and how we could help in your YWSO system. Only hours after the wardec was dropped.
You want me to post them publicly?
Or would you rather stop this now?
Post whatever you think will bring you advantage. You know, I'm beginning to see that you are simply not a very clever man and you seem to have no idea whatsoever who you are dealing with when addressing the Star Fraction. Your galnet wriggling is quite pathetic and you seem to have gotten into your head that you can lie and bluster your way to a public relations "victory" of sorts by conjuring a crowd of unattributed identities to stamp their feet cough out imprecations but the truth is you are caught in the spotlight of public statements and your own words.
What possible benefit do you think you gain from claiming I speak a falsehood with the sentence ... "We don't consider you potential allies, nor trustworthy business partners, nor even well-intentioned neutrals at this point."
Its ridiculous and desperate and I actually feel a bit sorry for you.
True Knowledge |
Daemonde Ardishapur
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.10 20:59:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: John Revenent
Quote: We don't consider you potential allies, nor trustworthy business partners, nor even well-intentioned neutrals at this point.
Another lie, I recived a mail the same day my Raven was destroyed by one of your directors wondering about Ishukone-Raata Industrial capabilities and how we could help in your YWSO system. Only hours after the wardec was dropped.
You want me to post them publicly?
Or would you rather stop this now?
Post whatever you think will bring you advantage. You know, I'm beginning to see that you are simply not a very clever man and you seem to have no idea whatsoever who you are dealing with when addressing the Star Fraction. Your galnet wriggling is quite pathetic and you seem to have gotten into your head that you can lie and bluster your way to a public relations "victory" of sorts by conjuring a crowd of unattributed identities to stamp their feet cough out imprecations but the truth is you are caught in the spotlight of public statements and your own words.
What possible benefit do you think you gain from claiming I speak a falsehood with the sentence ... "We don't consider you potential allies, nor trustworthy business partners, nor even well-intentioned neutrals at this point."
Its ridiculous and desperate and I actually feel a bit sorry for you.
What about the ridiculousness and desperation of your own words? The desire for as much public attention as possible by planting numerous threads on your own organization does not get your point across. Slandering people and putting them through walls of text does not make them "see the light". Nor does shooting them for refusing to agree to your very unclear, yet specific terms.
So I assume you think you've won this public "debate", or rather a fiasco.
But that's not up to you, that's up the public audience. I have seen little support for your actions and deeds in regards to this outside of your anarchist alliance.
So the choir hears the preacher but the pews are empty.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.10 21:18:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 10/05/2010 21:18:57
Originally by: Daemonde Ardishapur What about the ridiculousness and desperation of your own words? The desire for as much public attention as possible by planting numerous threads on your own organization does not get your point across. Slandering people and putting them through walls of text does not make them "see the light". Nor does shooting them for refusing to agree to your very unclear, yet specific terms.
I'm sorry I don't think we've been introduced. This seems to be your first ever post on galnet and yet you have quite a well-developed opinion there beginning in mid rant against the Star Fraction! I'm guessing you must work on the docks for I-RED or something am I right?
Originally by: Daemonde Ardishapur so I assume you think you've won this public "debate", or rather a fiasco. But that's not up to you, that's up the public audience. I have seen little support for your actions and deeds in regards to this outside of your anarchist alliance.
Of course we have won the "debate." We have won the "debate" because there IS a "debate." We wanted to bring sharp attention to the fact that a CVA-collaborator was daring to hold a memorial in the name of a man who's actions enabled the Elder fleets to liberate billions from slave prisons and concentration camps across the Amarrian border zones. We've hit the headlines, we've scandalized ammatar and race traitors, we've forced John Revenent to get his dock-workers to register on Galnet to post nonsense and we've involved you in the discussions.
And public opinion? Its all in favour of the Star Fraction currently. After all, if people felt strongly we'd done something wrong in executing John Revenent at his own memorial then they've had ample time to register their discontent through the medium of concord war decs or even diplomatic condemnation via evemail. Funnily enough I've received no such messages or any kind of notification of concord registered hostilities since we killed this Amarrian Imperialist appeaser in the wreckage of his ship.
Strangely it appears the only non I-RED people who are condemning us are previously unknown (or otherwise incapable) galnet identities associated with the ammatar, amarrian nationalism or other creeds of bottom-dwelling CVA-worshipers newly ousted from Providence. But I'm sure thats just coincidence ... right?
True Knowledge |
Ryan Darkwolf
Amarr Sins Of Lost Souls Einherjar Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.10 21:32:00 -
[137]
I was going to say something witty but it seems to have slipped my mind....
Anyways, let me place things this way, hypothetically I work for some people you dislike, then hypothetically I end up seeing them screw up and do thing I dont particullarly condone so I leave them after fighting you under orders from those people I work for. Later on, many months after I leave and start my own corporation/alliance, and after I had already done several "memorials" for Otro Gariushi, you decide that you still dislike me for having worked for evil bad guys that used to be my boss. You continously rant and rave and have your "free captains" rant and rave about my evil doings in the past, which had been orders from my evil doer bosses mind you, and tell me I must admonish them and say that I am sorry for what I have done. You say that if I don not you will kill me. Here is the thing...although i may have done horrible things in my past, I do not regret nor feel the need to ask anyone forgiveness for what I have done.
Not only that but being told that I am being punished for my past? That is a ridiculous hypocracy!! Not a single capsuleer in all of Eden is clean and sinless, and to be punished for past actions that I have already regreted is foolish and unessesary.
But to you and yours, it MUST be done. You have a need to feel like you came out on top...that you TRIUMPHED over evil. You sadly did not Ms. Constantine.
Instead you have made yourself look foolish, hypocritical and created a martyr. If it had been me in that ship I would have brought the fury of my people upon you. I do not like to be coerced, and when I am I tend to bite those doing so.
So I ask you this Ms. Constantine....if someone held a gun to your head and told you to publicly announce all your misgivings and past sins, and to publicly denounce the Free Captains of the Star Fraction, would you do it? If a fleet of 30+ ships were sent, would you come out alone (with nuetral repair ships) and have your pride and that of your alliance blasted for all to see just because some "crusader of justice" is telling you to do so?
I can tell you that you probably would not...you would fight, and make yourself a martyr if necessary because it is something you would not be willing to accept...that someone who has never been close to you or personally flown with you would dare to (and at a memorial service of all places) tell you to do something such as publicly denounce your misgivings.
I for one understand what Otro Gariushi sacrificed and what his death ment for millions of people accross New Eden, but apparently when faced with someone you dislike you can easily spill blood again in a place non should have been spilt in the first place. Congratulations, you made it on the news once again... ------------------- To bring equality to the world, if your character is female then you will now have a female corpse when podkilled.. What will CCP think of next? |
Andreus LeHane
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2010.05.10 21:38:00 -
[138]
One has to question why, if you feel that no-one fitting your nebulous definition of "worthwhile" has raised any objections to your actions, you feel the need to so vociferously defend your actions. -----
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.10 21:50:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Ryan Darkwolf So I ask you this Ms. Constantine....if someone held a gun to your head and told you to publicly announce all your misgivings and past sins, and to publicly denounce the Free Captains of the Star Fraction, would you do it?
No of course not. But then I also wouldn't have spent eight pages of a galnet thread weepily lamenting fate and making up lies about the people who did it. We'd be fighting, in space, and ships would be exploding right now.
True Knowledge |
Daemonde Ardishapur
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.10 22:10:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Ryan Darkwolf So I ask you this Ms. Constantine....if someone held a gun to your head and told you to publicly announce all your misgivings and past sins, and to publicly denounce the Free Captains of the Star Fraction, would you do it?
No of course not. But then I also wouldn't have spent eight pages of a galnet thread weepily lamenting fate and making up lies about the people who did it. We'd be fighting, in space, and ships would be exploding right now.
Wait, but you're not. You're here. And most of the replies are actually from Star Fraction members. So which is it? Would you rather be fighting in space or on the IGS?
Originally by: Jade Constantine I'm sorry I don't think we've been introduced. This seems to be your first ever post on galnet and yet you have quite a well-developed opinion there beginning in mid rant against the Star Fraction! I'm guessing you must work on the docks for I-RED or something am I right?
You are quick to make assumptions; those can be very dangerous. I am actually entirely loyal to the Empire, not to I-RED, who I have never had any contact with what-so-ever. And what difference does it make if I sit quietly in the shadows or speak my mind? I can still read coherently and make up my own opinions.
Originally by: Jade Constatine Of course we have won the "debate." We have won the "debate" because there IS a "debate." We wanted to bring sharp attention to the fact that a CVA-collaborator was daring to hold a memorial in the name of a man who's actions enabled the Elder fleets to liberate billions from slave prisons and concentration camps across the Amarrian border zones. We've hit the headlines, we've scandalized ammatar and race traitors, we've forced John Revenent to get his dock-workers to register on Galnet to post nonsense and we've involved you in the discussions.
And public opinion? Its all in favour of the Star Fraction currently. After all, if people felt strongly we'd done something wrong in executing John Revenent at his own memorial then they've had ample time to register their discontent through the medium of concord war decs or even diplomatic condemnation via evemail. Funnily enough I've received no such messages or any kind of notification of concord registered hostilities since we killed this Amarrian Imperialist appeaser in the wreckage of his ship. Strangely it appears the only non I-RED people who are condemning us are previously unknown (or otherwise incapable) galnet identities associated with the ammatar, amarrian nationalism or other creeds of bottom-dwelling CVA-worshipers newly ousted from Providence. But I'm sure thats just coincidence ... right?
The debate is actually more about Star-Fraction than it is I-RED now. That is what you wanted after all, right? A bright spotlight on your own organization can give good PR but can also reveal the divots and cracks in your logic. I don't see any scandals beyond the one you have with a certain capusleer, Revan Nefaris. Scandalous indeed.
But please, continue in your damning ways. It is not of my concern what becomes of you when you face infinite death. What makes you think that a CONCORD war declaration or a mail is necessary to "register their discontent"? What makes you so confident that people are not just waiting for you to make a mis-step that they can jump on? You seem to have ignored a great many posts from Minmatar loyalists and others who admired you in the past.
****y and boastful. Your 'free-space' ideals make me think of simple-minded and naive children:
A baby could kill a man if she had a gun in her hand; it is not a hard thing to do. You seem to desire to put guns in all the babies hands. Your own actions show you demand candy and shoot when you can't have it.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.10 22:14:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Daemonde Ardishapur Wait, but you're not. You're here. And most of the replies are actually from Star Fraction members. So which is it? Would you rather be fighting in space or on the IGS?
I can't help but notice you didn't address even a single element of my previous post in any substantive way. We are here now listening the endless bleating of I-RED and their supporters and encouraging anyone who supports these slaver-collaborators to do something about it and bring some action in space!
True Knowledge |
Daemonde Ardishapur
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.10 22:22:00 -
[142]
What you mean to say is I did not say what you had in mind; apparently just like your hated John Revenant.
Substantive ways? What questions do you have, dear? I answered all that was relevant.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.10 22:39:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Daemonde Ardishapur "What you mean to say"
That won't fly. We've gotten bored of Merdeneth saying that line years ago. What I said was that you didn't reply to a single substantive point of my post. That tells me you have no interest in debating anything honestly and you are best dimissed as just another I-RED galnet supporting proxy.
I note you are a member of the Knighthood of the Merciful Crown (24th Crusade). No surprise then to see you supporting CVA collaborators is it?
True Knowledge |
Ryan Darkwolf
Amarr Sins Of Lost Souls Einherjar Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.10 22:48:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Ryan Darkwolf on 10/05/2010 22:50:16 *Sigh*
I will not argue further...transmitting this from onworld is quite literally annoying and is being seen as some sort of Pro-CVA thing.
Ms. Constantine, you are wielding a double edged blade and have currently impaled yourself upon it along with a few of your enemies. I have no quarrel with you, but it seems that you understand that no one would ever comform to anyone elses will at gunpoint.
Had you and yours decided to go about things in a more peaceful way, or at least at a more appropriate location, none of this would have blown the way it has. By all means carry out your vengeance and execute people to your hearts content...but doing so at a memorial as you have done has placed doubt in the minds of those that support you.
This is being seen as some sort of ego boosting, propaganda driven need to get in the news yet again. You desecrated a memorial that Mr. Revenent has before conducted, and yet at that last memorial you never went out of your way to execute him.
Enough if this I'm going to back to lounging about until such a time as I am needed or the landlock on my ship is released. ------------------- To bring equality to the world, if your character is female then you will now have a female corpse when podkilled.. What will CCP think of next? |
Nooblog
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.10 22:52:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Nooblog on 10/05/2010 22:52:50 Jade,
Read your statement.
Quote: "Can we agree a truce to discuss?"
Is the following statement not a "Yes" but with a few more words?
Quote:
[ 2010.05.05 20:27:27 ] John Revenent > Now I am undocking alone to speak with you Miss Constantine.
After this, you demanded no truce. You asked nothing of him. He undocked, stood still (as you reported) and you fired upon him.
Please read the words, see the actions and open your eyes.
You're being unreasonable. |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.10 23:02:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Nooblog Edited by: Nooblog on 10/05/2010 22:52:50 Jade,
Read your statement.
Quote: "Can we agree a truce to discuss?"
Is the following statement not a "Yes" but with a few more words?
Quote:
[ 2010.05.05 20:27:27 ] John Revenent > Now I am undocking alone to speak with you Miss Constantine.
No it isn't because he doesn't request a truce and nor was he alone. (He was assisted by neutral remote shield transfer and around six cloaked falcons)
How complicated are you trying to make this.
If somebody wants a truce then they must ask for a truce.
True Knowledge |
Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.05.10 23:18:00 -
[147]
I'm curious about something. The "negotiations" between the Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate took place behind closed doors. The Daisho Syndicate is a NBSI territorial holding enclosurist alliance.
- You didn't demand they publically renounce enclosurist space.
- You didn't demand they publically repudiate slavery.
Why then wasn't your requested negotiations with I-Red handled in the same manner? Why did you insist on a public statement during a memorial service to people murdered by a renegade Gallente Admiral? This was clearly an inappropriate time for such a demand.
I find this "double-standard" quite revealing and it makes me believe the entire concept of repudiation is to stroke the already enlarged ego of the Star Fraction. Given the statement Jade made about this not being a negotiation of equals even moreso causes me to believe this and makes the Star Fraction look like nothing more then the neighborhood bully. Some consistency by the Star Fraction in dealings with others would probably provide less evidence for those who would point out your hypocritical actions.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.10 23:26:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Archbishop
I'm curious about something. The "negotiations" between the Star Fraction and Daisho Syndicate took place behind closed doors. The Daisho Syndicate is a NBSI territorial holding enclosurist alliance. - You didn't demand they publically renounce enclosurist space. - You didn't demand they publically repudiate slavery.
Why then wasn't your requested negotiations with I-Red handled in the same manner?
Because I-RED were filthy collaborators with the CVA and directly involved with defending the disgraceful imperialist depravity of amarrian imperialism in Providence. And ultimately our business is our businsess. The terms we set to the ending of hostilities will vary to our diplomatic interest.
Quote: Why did you insist on a public statement during a memorial service to people murdered by a renegade Gallente Admiral?
As stated many times. It is our intention to make the circumstance of John Revenent's disavowal of the CVA as public and noticeable as possible. If he refused to come to terms we fully intended to execute him in the full glare of the cluster's news media to publicise our disgust at the memorial for a man who enabled the Elder liberation of billions being handed by a man who was simply a paid thug for the CVA.
Quote: This was clearly an inappropriate time for such a demand.
No it wasn't.
Quote: I find this "double-standard" quite revealing and it makes me believe the entire concept of repudiation is to stroke the already enlarged ego of the Star Fraction.
What you believe is neither here nor there. You are a deceitful Amarrian nationalist with a penchant for lying continually about any subject you approach on galnet.
Quote: Given the statement Jade made about this not being a negotiation of equals even moreso causes me to believe this and makes the Star Fraction look like nothing more then the neighborhood bully.
As I said earlier, hearing Amarrian nationalists and collaborators accusing me of bullying them is something that makes me hot
True Knowledge |
Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.05.10 23:44:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Because I-RED were filthy collaborators with the CVA and directly involved with defending the disgraceful imperialist depravity of amarrian imperialism in Providence. And ultimately our business is our business. The terms we set to the ending of hostilities will vary to our diplomatic interest. (Of course its to be noted that Diasho were prepared to fully repudiate the statement of their membership which claimed to be supporting slavery in Providence).
But I-Red clearly said "NOT ANY LONGER" when accused of all those things (it's in your chatlog). This short sentence seems pretty clear to me.
Quote: As stated many times. It was our intention to make the circumstance of John Revenent's disavowal of the CVA as public and noticeable as possible. If he refused to come to terms we fully intended to execute him in the full glare of the cluster's news media to publicise our disgust at the memorial for a man who enabled the Elder liberation of billions, being handed by a man who was simply a paid thug for the CVA.
So you admit this basically was all an attempt to get the attention of the news media. OK I'm glad that point is cleared up.
Quote: What you believe is neither here nor there. You are a deceitful Amarrian nationalist with a penchant for lying continually about any subject you approach on galnet.
But looking at the posts of many others here I see several others making the same points I am now making. I suppose they are all liars too? In fact I really don't see anyone supporting your position but you and your pilots.
Quote: As I said earlier, hearing Amarrian nationalists and collaborators accusing me of bullying them is something that makes me hot
I'm sure all those hot lights shining on you exposing what you really are generate alot of heat. The light of truth has a way of doing that.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.05.11 00:38:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Archbishop But I-Red clearly said "NOT ANY LONGER" when accused of all those things (it's in your chatlog). This short sentence seems pretty clear to me.
We don't believe them. We did believe Daisho. Not sure how that is confusing you.
Quote: But looking at the posts of many others here I see several others making the same points I am now making. I suppose they are all liars too? In fact I really don't see anyone supporting your position but you and your pilots.
Anybody taking your position here is pretty much guarenteed to be an amarrian nationalist, amarrian collaborator, gutless turncoat, ammatar or some breed of bottom-feeding galnet proxy. Nobody of any worth or name is supporting your argument obviously.
True Knowledge |
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