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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.04.29 09:43:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy First because there are fewer players in Null, and secondly and more obviously, higher overall density means the need to move extractors is less. Each extractor placement costs ISK.
The Processor to Extractor ratio in Null is significantly better. The extractor cost per unit of raw materials in Null will be significantly less. Production costs are not the same.
Ah, I hadn't considered this. I only got through a few extractor cycles before the planet I was using on the test server broke, so I never had to move extractors. -
I wish I was a two foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.04.29 10:01:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Crumplecorn Ah, I hadn't considered this. I only got through a few extractor cycles before the planet I was using on the test server broke, so I never had to move extractors.
A few planets seem to have broken.
The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.04.29 11:24:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Di Mulle on 29/04/2010 11:24:42
Originally by: Venkul Mul So the picture this thread give is:
stuff
It is hard to comprehend what you were reading, if at all, as some posts state directly opposite things.
Abandoned colonies stop to work in 5 days tops, after this they can't further influence anything.
0.0 without sov and NPC space - pure nonsense. You don't need to have sov for PI. You just can't use planets under sov, if it is not yours. And claiming sov for PI only, as in its' current state - don't think it will pay of.
PI still has tons of problems, the most important one being impossible to fix now - but resource distribution certainly isn't the crucial one.
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Cailais
Amarr British Armoured Division The G0dfathers
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Posted - 2010.04.29 11:32:00 -
[64]
The fundamental problem is that PI was (and still is) being touted as a civilisation'lite mini game. If this was the case all would be well - as it could be an engaging mini game in its own right and therefore of value to everyone, even if the actual ISK rewards were limited.
But that's not the case - at least not currently. As it stands PI is simply an adaptation of the POS production system, or simply put: Moon Mining Version 2.1.
Until the glaring disconnect between what was hyped at previous Fan Fests, being hyped on the trailers (Tyranny over colonies etc) and the REALITY of what we have now is addressed I dont think PI will be called a success.
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
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senitaph core
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.04.29 11:54:00 -
[65]
it people like the op that made mission in empire broken
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Tethraa KaiSuun
Caldari KaiSuun Industries
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Posted - 2010.04.29 12:11:00 -
[66]
I don't think that it will be completely useless in high sec space. It gives players the opportunity to see what it's all about. You're right that some players won't bother because of the lack of profit. However, there are some players that still play the game out of sheer fun.
There are some people that still have no idea how POSes work or how to manually run a POS gun. Players either need both access to 0.0 and permission to set up a POS for their corp -OR- a way to set up and protect a POS set up in low-sec -OR- a corp to themselves that has an actual standing (not effective) greater than 5 which a faction.
PI on the other hand will be something that high-sec only players will try out. Industrialists will watch the trends in certain low populated areas and place temporary PI setups in certain systems when the profits are marginally decent or at least even out. Simply because some of these industrialists have high sec POSes that need fueling too. ~~ Tethraa KaiSuun |
Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb
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Posted - 2010.04.29 12:12:00 -
[67]
So, you cannot make oodles of risk-free isk by sitting in Jita and creaming resources from hi-sec planets all day.
Well, I'm afraid to say it but... "Hello, emergency services? Yes, good, I need you to call in the WAAAAAHHHHHHHmbulance".
If I had my way (which my ego tells me I should) then PI should be even less for NPC-corp hi-sec players.
Quote: So why even allow PI in highsec and lowsec?
To give players the experience and learning curve. Also, new players dont need as much ask as the oldies and so they will be happier with the scratchings.
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Nito Musashi
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Posted - 2010.04.29 12:13:00 -
[68]
i always wondered how planets/asteroids/gas magically had more stuff, it just does not make a ton of sense. yea some regions might have uber exotic stuff in it. empire has a ton of people running around doing stuff so some resources might be tapped. but the arbitary E gets 10% L gets 50% N gets 100% or whatever is not how things work in the real world. :P
a little more variety in the systems and a little more logic might make things more interesting say random rich planets that can be anywhere, rare roids that give non standard stuff, how about the industrialists and miners and such give them something that makes them exploring a bit a bit more rewarding?
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Droog 1
Black Rise Inbreds
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Posted - 2010.04.29 12:15:00 -
[69]
Good job CCP.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.04.29 12:29:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Nito Musashi i always wondered how planets/asteroids/gas magically had more stuff, it just does not make a ton of sense.
You are competing against the NPC empires in highsec, less so in lowsec, very little in 0.0. -
I wish I was a two foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes |
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.04.29 12:35:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Cailais The fundamental problem is that PI was (and still is) being touted as a civilisation'lite mini game. If this was the case all would be well - as it could be an engaging mini game in its own right and therefore of value to everyone, even if the actual ISK rewards were limited.
But that's not the case - at least not currently. As it stands PI is simply an adaptation of the POS production system, or simply put: Moon Mining Version 2.1.
Until the glaring disconnect between what was hyped at previous Fan Fests, being hyped on the trailers (Tyranny over colonies etc) and the REALITY of what we have now is addressed I dont think PI will be called a success.
C.
QFT.
I would go even further, there are even more fundamental psychological problems.
Let's use some analogy. Let's measure development of a game in, say, apples. Long ago there was one apple - initial EVE. Then CCP added, for example, battleships. Suddenly we have 2 apples. Woohoo, it is TWICE ! what a joy.
Now repeat this process over the time. We have 10 apples now, CCP just gives one more. Still a shiny tasty one.... but, meh, we had 10, now it is 11, who cares much ? However, we expected the same thrill we had once. For this to happen, CCP should add apples in progression, like 1,2,4... Pretty much impossible. Their resources are limited.
Another problem is incorrect expectations of significant part of players. They expect the new apple being given to everyone, each time. Even more, lots of them imagine they should be given while others somehow not. However EVE is a game where apple is only one and is actively competed over, not given. Some will get 9/10 of it, others only 1/10.
This is true for any stuff you add to EVE. In case of PI there is one more problem, as in quoted post. CCP dreamed of and promised to deliver an orange. Counting small spherical objects, it is still an addition of 1 to 10, and value of orange in a world where almost everybody goes for apples may be questioned - but nevertheless, it is an orange, different color and taste. Uhm, delicious.
Sadly, as it happens CCP delivered just another apple. Pretty small and bitter one on top of it.
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Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network Dignitas.
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Posted - 2010.04.29 12:45:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Omira Tan Two small questions: Thanks!
1 - On Sisi, everyone has all PI skills at lvl 5.
To be fair I haven't been on in a while on SISI, but when I was on (two weeks ago maybe), there were no skills for PI. ________________________
Store | Apply |
Novs Slave
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Posted - 2010.04.29 12:46:00 -
[73]
6% vs. 600%
0.0 should cost much more to get PI working if they get 600% more from it.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.29 12:48:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Novs Slave 6% vs. 600%
0.0 should cost much more to get PI working if they get 600% more from it.
It does. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Tink3r Tr0n
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Posted - 2010.04.29 12:54:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Tink3r Tr0n on 29/04/2010 12:55:28 Shouldn't PI be more profitable in Null sec anyway?
I don't understand the issue.
Also you could mess with your planets up to 12 jumps away from the original system so why couldnt a player stay in high sec and do all that stuff?
You could keep all the materials on the planet in storage and haul it away once a month if u want.
I don't see how this is a null sec only activity.
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Riedle
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
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Posted - 2010.04.29 12:58:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Amida Ta
Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 28/04/2010 22:08:06
Originally by: Amida Ta Magic Crystal Ball
Yes because the numbers on sisi right now have any realistic relation to the numbers that will be put in on release.
It was already stated on the dev blog post by a dev that the resource level differences between highsec/nullsec are as intended by CCP and as intended for the final release.
It doesn't matter at all if they tweak the concrete extraction numbers for release if the percentages are kept equal (and to repeat: that was already dev confirmed as intended).
Do you have any idea who much sovereignty costs in null sec? No?
/thread
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.04.29 12:59:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Novs Slave 6% vs. 600%
0.0 should cost much more to get PI working if they get 600% more from it.
It does.
Prove that 0.0 costs more than the 10% NPC corp tax that mission runners must labor under!
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Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.04.29 13:03:00 -
[78]
Seems to me that:
1) it exists in high sec, so all manner of players can get a taste of it. 2) Most resources will pour in from null 3) Most construction will occur in Empire, because 0.0 players can't be bothered.
Seems reasonable to me.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.29 13:05:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Prove that 0.0 costs more than the 10% NPC corp tax that mission runners must labor under!
Prove to me that mission runners must labour under 10% corp tax (and that this has any relevance whatsoever to the income earned through PI). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Soddington Smythe
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Posted - 2010.04.29 13:09:00 -
[80]
New buttons to push.Whats not to love? Make em shiny,and if possible a nice little blimp of a sound to let me know I pressed it.
Now,.... whats it do?
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.29 13:48:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Novs Slave 6% vs. 600%
0.0 should cost much more to get PI working if they get 600% more from it.
It does.
Prove that 0.0 costs more than the 10% NPC corp tax that mission runners must labor under!
Give me the monetary cost of living in 0.0 And by that I meant system sov bills + alliance fees + corp fees + money spent aquiring that plot of space + money spent keeping that plot of space + logistics in living in that piece of space + all the other gubbins people totally over look when they compare "OMG 0.0 WORLD OF MILK AND COOKIES vs EMPIRE"
Then compare that to the "cost" of living in empire --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.04.29 13:58:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Di Mulle on 29/04/2010 13:58:28
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
system sov bills + alliance fees + corp fees + money spent aquiring that plot of space + money spent keeping that plot of space + logistics in living in that piece of space + all the other gubbins people totally over look when they compare "OMG 0.0 WORLD OF MILK AND COOKIES vs EMPIRE"
Then compare that to the "cost" of living in empire
No offense, but you are concentrating too much on ISK aspects even. "All the other gubbins" is tons of time end efforts spent by keeping place and denying it for others.
Either by killing them or scaring them away (this often works pretty effective too). Now, granted, lots of empire whiners are rather happy to scare themselves in advance. Still leaves a lot of people with more clue and guts around. One needs to work to scare them away.
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Calhontor
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Posted - 2010.04.29 14:00:00 -
[83]
Who cares? PI is gonna be a load of cr*p anyway if I wanna connect dots and lines i'll go play some cr*ppy old game where you connect dots and lines.
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Mohenna
Caldari Knights of the Dark
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Posted - 2010.04.29 14:56:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Calhontor Who cares? PI is gonna be a load of cr*p anyway if I wanna connect dots and lines i'll go play some cr*ppy old game where you connect dots and lines.
Confirm. You may need it if you want to become autistic for insurance fraud schemes though.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.04.29 15:30:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Di Mulle This is true for any stuff you add to EVE. In case of PI there is one more problem, as in quoted post. CCP dreamed of and promised to deliver an orange. Counting small spherical objects, it is still an addition of 1 to 10, and value of orange in a world where almost everybody goes for apples may be questioned - but nevertheless, it is an orange, different color and taste. Uhm, delicious.
This is my main problem with it. That and the fact that CCP hasn't seemed to acknowledge that they're only delivering an apple, even though we were expecting an orange. If they were to come out and say "We only had time to grow another apple--not an orange. But the Orange is coming Soon(TM)" that'd be OK, but there has been complete silence about it.
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.29 15:30:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Omira Tan Two small questions:
1) If you have to train for PI, and the skillbooks aren't even out yet, then how come ppl have tested in on SiSi already?
2) When the day comes, you don't have to rush to a planet to plant something of yours there, right? Everyone can put stuff on a planet, and the planet won't be depleted, right?
Thanks!
1) the skills are seeded on SiSi and existing characters were auto granted the skill at V
2) planets "depelte currently
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.*
Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense. |
Liorah
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Posted - 2010.04.29 18:50:00 -
[87]
Quote: oh and one thing people seem to be foregeting about all of this
if your running processes to feed your Possystem-Sovsystem builds. . . . your not makeing fuel
if your makeing fuel your not makine pos structures because of all the Extractors you have to offline for the Freaking subcombines you will need to do to build structures.
*sigh*
Because one person per 3000-man alliance is all that can use this.
Quote: accessibility
The "accessibility" of everyone to PI is easy to meet: just allow it to happen with minimal skills in hisec; that's hardly an accomplishment. There will be a small number of people who play with this in hisec, but the profits won't be there, so there won't be anyone seriously doing this in hisec. As explained later, Nullsec will drive the market, so people will still just buy what they need in hisec.
Combine the lower resource allocations of hisec with the fact that 100 people can build on the same planet, and your profits which may have looked average in the morning before you went to work have suddenly plummeted by the time you come home from work. Building structures cost ISK. If you can't make that ISK back -AND- turn a profit compared to just buying the stuff, it's not worth the effort or skill training time.
Nullsec alliances will be able to assign planets to corp members/alts for maximum, predictable, production potential and profits. Hisec (and even Lowsec, to a degree) will pile on whatever planet they feel like building on. There is no predictability of profits whatsoever in Highsec, and not so much in Lowsec either though it's much more dangerous. The only place that is less safe than Lowsec is NPC Nullsec.
The only reason I won't say that Sov Nullsec should be less profitable than Lowsec is because it is hideously expensive to live safely in Nullsec. But it's also much safer than Empire, and those hideous costs allow significant bonuses.
I had originally posted a cynical comment in the Devblog discussion thread that this was primarily aimed at allowing Nullsec to avoid coming to Empire, and it seems I was right.
In addition to living in relative safety in their little Alliance-protected pockets of sovereign space, PI means Nullsec alliances no longer have to worry (nearly as much) about travelling to Empire and possibly risk bumping into wardec'd enemies outside of Jita, or having to switch off to alts to make the final stages of the trip. They'll still do this to sell their excesses and define the market for these products, but they won't be REQUIRED to go to Empire anymore (for this stuff, at least).
The bottom line:
This is CCP's game, and apparently they have decided that Nullsec Alliances > everything else and are building the game around that philosophy. And you know what? That's perfectly fine! It's fine as long as they are honest about it, instead of trying to deceive the rest of the players. A little more transparency would be nice.
There is a TREMENDOUS opportunity for PI to be something amazing and huge (just like the untapped potential for W-space and exploration in general), and not just for Nullsec. As it stands right now, it's meeting their apparent goals for Nullsec alliances AND providing a tie-in for DUST, so I don't expect it to change much.
Another wasted opportunity :(
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Dodgy Past
Amarr Debitum Naturae BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.04.29 19:41:00 -
[88]
CCP have been regularly trumpeting that they want more players to move to 0.0 for years.
How you can expect anyone to take you seriously when you're claiming that CCP is being dishonest by applying another small buff to null is laughable.
What you can expect is a minor buff to ice mining since fuelling POS is about to become easier and cheaper. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards. |
Makar Kravchenko
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Posted - 2010.04.29 20:06:00 -
[89]
Reply to OP:
I'm pretty sure that it will work out like Empire PI will provide you with components generated from PI for free, to use in your daily endeavors as you wish, wether pos operations or t2 productions, or whatever. In Low-sec, it will maybe generate a slight profit, in which you can decide to sell the items to the market (which the floor will ultimately be decided by the ammount of product being produced in 0.0 space and moved into empire) or keep it for your own endeavors. And in 0.0 it seems like you will get best of both worlds, profit, and extra for your own production or pos operations. It seems to me like thats more than fair. In high sec you get all that stuff for free essentially. If you break even on PI in high-sec, thats more than enough because it can contribute to reducing the cost of other related operations.
In your theory maybe CCP should just put R64 moons in high sec about it and allow moon mining in high-sec?
Come on man, think a second. What I just explained is most likely exactly how it will balance out. |
Asruv'ynn
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Posted - 2010.04.29 20:14:00 -
[90]
I believe you're being one-sided on the issue. Ok, I agree that limiting the output per security status doesn't seem promising, however I don't see that as the case.
Assuming CCP is scaling production equally the lower the security status, the fairer and most logical it would be. Think about it -- CCP has been trying so hard to balance lowsec space for sometime and introduce this. For higher levels of production/price comes higher risk; it's what many people have been asking for as a means to encourage players to move into lowsec space. A simple way to create risk aversion was a great idea and I think it will help those smaller alliances move farther out in space. Not only does this give everyone something to do to assist themselves and especially their corporations/alliances, but will help newer players work together in riskier endeavors.
I can see two potential downsides to this: catering to piracy and temporary price instabability. One could argue that saling such that to encourage players to move into lowsec would give more opportunities for pirates to prey on the weak. If that were true, would that really be a problem? The more corporations that hang out in lowsec, it would seem logical the less of a problem piracy would be simply because they could/would defend themselves with more players. It could also be argued as a great way to help corporations/alliances work towards those harder-to-reach goals like obtaining and operating a POS.
As for the changes in prices in the market, I don't see how this would change so much given that in order for the more distant alliances to bring these 'ridiculous' amounts of product to the markets, they have to haul it many jumps in the first place. Yes, the least valuable of the product would drop in price due to higher availablity in highsec, but doubtful it would be game-breaking. In fact, it seems to be an advantage for the people who need it the most: highsec and lowsec players. This is certainly more of a manufacturer's gain than a miner's loss.
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