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Gareshor
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Posted - 2009.12.08 18:19:00 -
[1]
I'm trying to get what makes the Tempest so good as a sniping vessel as compared to other battleships, but I'm not quite getting it. A Maelstrom gets 2 extra guns, which should more than enough compared to the damage bonus of the tempest. Could someone explain why the Tempest has such a reputation as a sniping ship? |
Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.08 18:32:00 -
[2]
Several reasons:
The first, was the back in the day prior to the HP buff and Tier 3 Battleships, an Arty Tempest could do a massive alpha strike, something other ships could not do nearly as effectively. This has been returned to it with the recent projectile changes.
The second, it has a double damage bonus, giving it about 96% of the damage that a Maelstrom can do while using less ammo and less guns.. making it that much cheaper to use.
The third, it can be armor tanked, while a Maelstrom is predominately shield tanked.
The fourth, it is a faster, more agile ship than the Maelstrom which allows it to move to new sniper points quicker.
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
LordInvisible
Gallente GK inc. Panda Team
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Posted - 2009.12.08 18:37:00 -
[3]
and its cheaper.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- empty space - HALP |
Veveritz
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.08 18:44:00 -
[4]
And it looks better, and local rep is a bit useless in large sniping operations.
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kessah
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.12.08 18:45:00 -
[5]
Its got its two utility slots, for a heavy neut vs tackle frigs or remote rep / cloak.
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AZN Steve
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.12.08 18:45:00 -
[6]
Edited by: AZN Steve on 08/12/2009 18:46:23 pro tip : for alpha , use an arty apoc . same price , more guns , more low slots , more alpha ( slightly )
edit : oh and you dont need minmatar bs 5 to get that alpha
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Lirielee
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Posted - 2009.12.08 19:00:00 -
[7]
use an abbadon for more better resist and more base armor!
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.12.08 19:12:00 -
[8]
Best Agility, Lowest sig radius, Awesome Alpha, Cheap.
Best shoot&warp ship out there. It's also one of the better fleet snipers for its cost.
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frsd
Caldari Fleet of Doom The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2009.12.08 19:15:00 -
[9]
tempest has more dps that an arty fit apoc, and honestly you dont want to wait oever 23 seconds too shoot again. But with the tempest its definetly that it can fit an armor tank, it isnt goot but its armor^^.
You can also nano it with a shield buffer tank which makes it pretty fast and the 2 utility slots really help out. Personnaly i only use the tempest. Sharing is a nice gesture. Stupid but nice... |
Deb Dukar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.09 09:55:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Deb Dukar on 09/12/2009 09:58:45 i tend to disagree a little bit here even though i havnt done a single fleet fight yet.
if u put 1600mm plates on a tempest and becomes nearly as slow as the meal (agility).
2 more guns also means 2 more chances for a wreackage. and the lows can be easily fitted with tracking enhancers and gyros. + u simply have more slots left because the tempest needs som serious work to make the 1400mm arties fit. u'd probaly also have 1 more rigslot left on a mael.
so the only negative would be the shield tanking and probably a bigger sig radius. and im still not sure how shield tanking is bad for snipers ------------------------- horray for typos |
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.12.09 10:10:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Deb Dukar Edited by: Deb Dukar on 09/12/2009 09:58:45 i tend to disagree a little bit here even though i havnt done a single fleet fight yet.
if u put 1600mm plates on a tempest and becomes nearly as slow as the meal (agility).
2 more guns also means 2 more chances for a wreackage. and the lows can be easily fitted with tracking enhancers and gyros. + u simply have more slots left because the tempest needs som serious work to make the 1400mm arties fit. u'd probaly also have 1 more rigslot left on a mael.
so the only negative would be the shield tanking and probably a bigger sig radius. and im still not sure how shield tanking is bad for snipers
you should not be plating snipers anymore on most situations. Snipers plates were always considered joke fittings until the titan proliferation forced DD tanks on everyone. Since we had soemthing like 1 DD being detoanted every 5 min ineve.. that was unavoidable.
Now that AOE DD is gone. Glass cannon snipers with more damage and range are again more efficient (no a plate will not increase your survivability enough against other snipers, because the agility, warp out, and get out of bubble times increases more than compensate the 0.8 seconds more you can stay at field due to a bit more HP. 10 Tempest can insta pop (as in no chance to do anything) a plated or non plated megatron.... on common fights where you have 40+ snipers.. if you are primaried you die as soon as the fleet bears on you.. even if you are in an abaddon with 5 plates. You have on any scenario a very few seconds to gtfo. Plates giveyou a few extra milisecodns.. but cost you on your capability of gtfo.
Dropping the DD tank you save 5 Mil isk on a 1600 plate and 3x 17M isk on trimarks. Basically allows you to buy another battleship.....
For current sniper fleet fights, might not be worth even spendign isk on any expensive rig.
Also on wrecking.. wrong logic. Wrecking happen 1 in 10 shots statistically wise. Its same change per gun. More guns.. more wrecking per hour. BUT a wrecking from a maelstrom gun is 25% weaker than a wrecking from a tempest. So at end is the same thing.
Notice.. i am talking about SNIPER.. not RR ships.
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Deb Dukar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.09 10:17:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Deb Dukar on 09/12/2009 10:19:51 Edited by: Deb Dukar on 09/12/2009 10:19:32 makes far to much sense imho. there must be somethig wrong ;)
so the main reason for a tempest is more like this: - same / more DPS - u can have nearly 2 pest for the price of 1 mael ------------------------- horray for typos |
Aurorae Andromedae
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Posted - 2009.12.09 10:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gareshor I'm trying to get what makes the Tempest so good as a sniping vessel as compared to other battleships, but I'm not quite getting it. A Maelstrom gets 2 extra guns, which should more than enough compared to the damage bonus of the tempest. Could someone explain why the Tempest has such a reputation as a sniping ship?
Because it fits perfectly into sniping RR BS gangs. It can put average buffer tank and can have two RR mods without losing any of the guns.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2009.12.09 10:49:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/12/2009 10:50:21
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Now that AOE DD is gone. Glass cannon snipers with more damage and range are again more efficient (no a plate will not increase your survivability enough against other snipers
I know we've clashed on this before, but in aggregate snipers with good EHP/DPS ratios are going to beat snipers with bad EHP/DPS ratios (even though they have better DPS!). I mean, sure, eventually it comes to the point that there's enough people on the field that everyone is instapopped and EHP doesn't matter... and at that point the only useful metrics are lock time and ROF (and a good overview setup).
I mean, sure, there are mitigating factors: - ROF < Lock Time, your extra ROF is wasted (sometimes) - The cost of fitting tank (Trimarks usually) - but I am referring to your probability of winning. Tons of people in this game think cost is "no issue" when you get to loot the field. - Having a lot of EHP doesn't help the early primaries; they're gonna die no matter what. - Good "squad leadership" can allow for multiple primaries (take advantage of high alpha for example), though I've found this to be rare in practice. Maybe it will get more common in Dominion now that alpha is meaningful.
-Liang
Ed: And to the OP's question: the Maelstrom has always been a better sniper than the Tempest. It has more EHP, more DPS, and more alpha. But, it costs more. And its rigs are cheaper (provided you go for tank rigs). -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Aurorae Andromedae
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Posted - 2009.12.09 10:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 09/12/2009 10:50:21
Originally by: Seishi Maru
Now that AOE DD is gone. Glass cannon snipers with more damage and range are again more efficient (no a plate will not increase your survivability enough against other snipers
I know we've clashed on this before, but in aggregate snipers with good EHP/DPS ratios are going to beat snipers with bad EHP/DPS ratios (even though they have better DPS!). I mean, sure, eventually it comes to the point that there's enough people on the field that everyone is instapopped and EHP doesn't matter... and at that point the only useful metrics are lock time and ROF (and a good overview setup).
I mean, sure, there are mitigating factors: - ROF < Lock Time, your extra ROF is wasted (sometimes) - The cost of fitting tank (Trimarks usually) - but I am referring to your probability of winning. Tons of people in this game think cost is "no issue" when you get to loot the field. - Having a lot of EHP doesn't help the early primaries; they're gonna die no matter what. - Good "squad leadership" can allow for multiple primaries (take advantage of high alpha for example), though I've found this to be rare in practice. Maybe it will get more common in Dominion now that alpha is meaningful.
-Liang
Ed: And to the OP's question: the Maelstrom has always been a better sniper than the Tempest. It has more EHP, more DPS, and more alpha. But, it costs more. And its rigs are cheaper (provided you go for tank rigs).
But why in earth you would use Mael in gangs instead of Tempest? Six gun mael...
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2009.12.09 10:58:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae But why in earth you would use Mael in gangs instead of Tempest? Six gun mael...
In RR gangs ? You wouldn't, generally. In sniper gangs? Because it has more alpha, more dps, and more ehp.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.12.09 11:08:00 -
[17]
Edited by: fkingfurious on 09/12/2009 11:08:31 There is absolutely a reason to buffer your snipers and anyone that thinks there isn't has clearly gone mental.
Glass cannon sniper fits went out of fashion long before the proliferation of Titans and for good reason. Firstly, align time is irrelevant, unless you seriously think that a fleet of snipers simply sits still while shoot ing and doesnt, you know, align to a warp out the second it lands on the field.
Second reason is that after the first few salvos have been exchanged fire becomes very scrappy. Varying RoF's, Lock times and most of all LAG mean that as the fight goes on the primary target takes damage in an increasing trickle and not the OMGWTFBBQ vollley damage that would otherwise be an insta-pop. This means that, as you are laready aligned, targets will VERY OFTEN be able to warp out after being primaried.
This chance dimishes greatly tho if you are a comedy glass cannon fit.
As for flying the Maelstrom over the Tempest the only reason not to is cost. The Maelstrom is a better sniper than the Pest, it just costs a bit more. Insurance takes most of the sting out of it though.
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Merbusent
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Posted - 2009.12.09 12:27:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Merbusent on 09/12/2009 12:28:23 Maelstrom is very simular on the whole costs more if there was a 120km's setup which if it used microwarp drive and made use of its rep bonus that would be its only short fall.
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Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2009.12.09 13:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: kessah Its got its two utility slots, for a heavy neut vs tackle frigs or remote rep / cloak.
And now tracking enhancers are a lot better than tracking computers for sniping (same range and falloff increase, a bit of tracking improvement). The Tempest is better at fitting them than the Maelstrom (and the Fleet Tempest and Machariel got the perfect slot layout). -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.12.09 14:38:00 -
[20]
Originally by: fkingfurious Edited by: fkingfurious on 09/12/2009 11:08:31 There is absolutely a reason to buffer your snipers and anyone that thinks there isn't has clearly gone mental.
Glass cannon sniper fits went out of fashion long before the proliferation of Titans and for good reason. Firstly, align time is irrelevant, unless you seriously think that a fleet of snipers simply sits still while shoot ing and doesnt, you know, align to a warp out the second it lands on the field.
Second reason is that after the first few salvos have been exchanged fire becomes very scrappy. Varying RoF's, Lock times and most of all LAG mean that as the fight goes on the primary target takes damage in an increasing trickle and not the OMGWTFBBQ vollley damage that would otherwise be an insta-pop. This means that, as you are laready aligned, targets will VERY OFTEN be able to warp out after being primaried.
This chance dimishes greatly tho if you are a comedy glass cannon fit.
As for flying the Maelstrom over the Tempest the only reason not to is cost. The Maelstrom is a better sniper than the Pest, it just costs a bit more. Insurance takes most of the sting out of it though.
Not a single time, when I was in 0.0, not a single time being buffered, even when buffered for 2 DD saved me when a sniper fleet primmaried me. All the times i escaped, I did before my shields were gone, just because I clicked warp when lots of ship had already adquired LOCK on me, not even started firing all. If I waited for damage, I would have died with 0, 1 2 or even 3 plates. Anywhere over 20 ships and you will be instant popped as soon as all the enemies fire on you. And current sniper fleets start at ranges of 80+. On other hand. I escaped a LOT of tight situations because I was the first to gtfo of the bubble (a condition no sniper can match a glass cannon tempest). Keeping aligned don't save you always, because smart dictor pilots put the bubble just ahead of your fleet, being able to turn to the shortest exist and gtfo helps a LOT! Not to forget the classical warp in "****! it's a trap!" scenario.
Titans are still the main reason why glass cannon snipers became worthless, not they will have their usages again.
for a lot of people cost is irrelevant. But an alliance cannot expect that to be tru for all its pilots unless the alliance is paying FULLY the cost of the member ships. And not very many do that nowadays for battleships (only for dreads). I will no way spend 200M to get in a fight I have 90% chance to die, when I can simply pay 80M and face same battle with 92% chance to die. Unless someone gives me that difference (because the loot of the filed not so frequently return to the grunts)
Main issue is, people act as if buffering your ship had no cost. You buffer your ship, but for quite a lot of battleships you have as cost range and dps.
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Juliette DuBois
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Posted - 2009.12.09 15:02:00 -
[21]
Pretty generic discussion... How about someone post current sniper pest and mael fittings and compare those?
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.12.09 15:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Juliette DuBois Pretty generic discussion... How about someone post current sniper pest and mael fittings and compare those?
Here are two fleet sniper fits which have the same mindset about em for comparison. You will see the Mael gives you a bit more DPS and alpha, but would cost about 40 mil more and align slower.
[Tempest, Fleet Sniper] Reactor Control Unit II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Projectile Locus Coordinator I Large Targeting System Subcontroller I Large Ionic Field Projector I
[Maelstrom, Fleet Sniper] Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
100MN MicroWarpdrive I Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor L
Large Projectile Locus Coordinator I Large Targeting System Subcontroller I Large Ionic Field Projector I
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Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
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Posted - 2009.12.09 15:56:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I mean, sure, there are mitigating factors: - ROF < Lock Time, your extra ROF is wasted (sometimes) - The cost of fitting tank (Trimarks usually) - but I am referring to your probability of winning. Tons of people in this game think cost is "no issue" when you get to loot the field. - Having a lot of EHP doesn't help the early primaries; they're gonna die no matter what. - Good "squad leadership" can allow for multiple primaries (take advantage of high alpha for example), though I've found this to be rare in practice. Maybe it will get more common in Dominion now that alpha is meaningful.
EHP is always good, however I prefer reduced sig radius (unless people decide to sit still instead of aligning). 340/460m sig for the Tempest/Maelstrom, and if you add a Claymore those numbers will be 252/341m. To do the same damage to a target that is 252m instead of 400m or bigger you need to increase your damage output by 57.8%. Of course using a Claymore do have the slight benefit of 15% better agility as well...
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2009.12.09 16:25:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
EHP is always good, however I prefer reduced sig radius (unless people decide to sit still instead of aligning). 340/460m sig for the Tempest/Maelstrom, and if you add a Claymore those numbers will be 252/341m. To do the same damage to a target that is 252m instead of 400m or bigger you need to increase your damage output by 57.8%. Of course using a Claymore do have the slight benefit of 15% better agility as well...
I can see why you would prefer reduced sig radius, but in reality you're at 180km. Even if you stay aligned (which you will, if you have a good FC), your sig isn't going to play into things a lot.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2009.12.09 16:31:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
EHP is always good, however I prefer reduced sig radius (unless people decide to sit still instead of aligning). 340/460m sig for the Tempest/Maelstrom, and if you add a Claymore those numbers will be 252/341m. To do the same damage to a target that is 252m instead of 400m or bigger you need to increase your damage output by 57.8%. Of course using a Claymore do have the slight benefit of 15% better agility as well...
The tracking formula would have a word with you. Your signature radius will only make a difference in damage by guns if they have trouble tracking you (we are talking fleet sniper here, no missile usage here, and if there was that would be cruise/HM that have way below 250m explosion radius).
At snipe range they won't have much trouble tracking you and the damage reduction is certainly not in the proportion you expect.
The only thing a smaller sig radius brings you in a fleet context is that it takes longer to lock you. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
Spaztick
Terminal Impact Kairakau
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Posted - 2009.12.09 16:32:00 -
[26]
Yea but if you have a Ragnarok in gang and a set of Halo implants, you won't get hit at all if you're moving!
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.09 18:05:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 09/12/2009 18:05:27
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: Juliette DuBois Pretty generic discussion... How about someone post current sniper pest and mael fittings and compare those?
Here are two fleet sniper fits which have the same mindset about em for comparison. You will see the Mael gives you a bit more DPS and alpha, but would cost about 40 mil more and align slower.
FITS
Quick suggestion Torpir: On both of your setups, I would suggest dropping your Locus rig for an ACR, and then drop the RCUs for TE IIs. It'll give you the same fit and better range and tracking.
Interestingly enough, every comparison I've seen the Tempest and Maelstrom as snipers in Dominion has usually shown the Mael to have a slight DPS and EHP advantage, but the Tempest to have a mobility and, oddly, an effective firing range advantage.
I can't quite figure it out, but I'd go as far as saying that the ships are pretty equivalent at sniping now. And if you're tanking it, armor > shield since most opposing sniper fleets will have a plague of Amarr ships...
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Torpir Lee
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.12.09 19:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Seriously Bored Edited by: Seriously Bored on 09/12/2009 18:05:27
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Originally by: Juliette DuBois Pretty generic discussion... How about someone post current sniper pest and mael fittings and compare those?
Here are two fleet sniper fits which have the same mindset about em for comparison. You will see the Mael gives you a bit more DPS and alpha, but would cost about 40 mil more and align slower.
FITS
Quick suggestion Torpir: On both of your setups, I would suggest dropping your Locus rig for an ACR, and then drop the RCUs for TE IIs. It'll give you the same fit and better range and tracking.
The reason I don't have an ACR on the fits is primarily due to cost. Locus costs about 15-20 mil less than an ACR.
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Studley Goodfk
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Posted - 2009.12.09 19:33:00 -
[29]
I see lots of replies suggesting that the better sniper gangs fit an armour tank, yet the setups posted have the lows full of gyros, TEs and fitting mods. Does anyone have any armour fits for the Sniper Tempest (or Maelstrom)? And is there any good reason why they should not have a shield buffer with shield remote reppers in the Tempest utility highs, allowing the fitting of those Gyros and TEs in the lows?
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Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.12.09 20:36:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Orakkus Several reasons:
The first, was the back in the day prior to the HP buff and Tier 3 Battleships, an Arty Tempest could do a massive alpha strike, something other ships could not do nearly as effectively. This has been returned to it with the recent projectile changes.
The second, it has a double damage bonus, giving it about 96% of the damage that a Maelstrom can do while using less ammo and less guns.. making it that much cheaper to use.
The third, it can be armor tanked, while a Maelstrom is predominately shield tanked.
The fourth, it is a faster, more agile ship than the Maelstrom which allows it to move to new sniper points quicker.
Not faster when armor tanked
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Juliette DuBois
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Posted - 2009.12.09 20:48:00 -
[31]
You donŠt need RCU for maelstrom at all, +3% grid implant is enough with 8 guns and T1 MWD. This allows for TEII for low slot and you can drop locus for whatever non-gun rig you like. This further leaves one med slot for a buffer (invu II) or sebo if you want faster locks (maybe even ECCM).
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prefectro
Minmatar tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.12.09 21:31:00 -
[32]
The main reason I pick a Pest over Mael is the versatility you get with two utility high slots. My sniper can easily turn into a solid RR BS or a dual Neut Cruiser killer. So I bring two Pests with fittings for various situations. The Mael is just slighly better as a sniper and not good for much else in nullsec. Cost has zero bearing on my choice as BS are relatively cheap already.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.12.09 21:31:00 -
[33]
tbh only way I would use the maelstrom would be if it had a dmg + shield hp bonus instead of the rof + shield boosting bonus. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Juliette DuBois
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Posted - 2009.12.09 21:38:00 -
[34]
Originally by: prefectro The main reason I pick a Pest over Mael is the versatility you get with two utility high slots. My sniper can easily turn into a solid RR BS or a dual Neut Cruiser killer. So I bring two Pests with fittings for various situations. The Mael is just slighly better as a sniper and not good for much else in nullsec. Cost has zero bearing on my choice as BS are relatively cheap already.
I prefer having maels for sniping and typhoons for RR. I can understand your logic if you are only gunnery specced, though.
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