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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.08 18:37:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Vadinho
Originally by: Destrim So, let's move on to what we would rather have, and discuss the details of that. What do we thing should be used in the military/industrial/sovereignty divisions, and how, etc. What would be worthwhile benefit to draw people out into 0.0?
we've also talked about this at length in this thread and there have been great suggestions from people of all walks of life, from the biggest alliances to the smallest, and most of the popular ideas have oriented around increasing belt rat bounties, spawn sizes and respawn rates.
belt ratting is the bread-and-butter method of generating quick income for a lot of groups in nullsec since you can get into it without having to scan down a bunch of ridiculous **** (nobody wants to hunt for worthwhile sites just for basic income), you can do it alone (nobody wants to be forced into gangs just for basic income) and is consistent income over time that has less to do with luck than any other method of independent nullsec wealth generation outside mining (which is the sole territory of the ten account macro miner in nullsec)
so i guess if they made exploration type stuff more consistently profitable then belt ratting thatd be cool too -- like have them start at their lowest level with rapid respawning triple-1.3m bs spawns instead of a single pirate in a shuttle spelling out ~*~fartz~*~ with his jet exhaust
IMO this is bad. It should _not_ be the best way. It should be the middle ground, or even the worst way. Anomalies, mining, production, ratting, etc, all should provide equal opportunity for ISK. Maybe even diminishing returns if you focus on _only_ one aspect.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.08 19:17:00 -
[2]
Only way to make people in empire flock to 0.0 would be to make it so those corps can make an invulnerable base and make 0.0 more profitable then empire. _No other way_. Period.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.08 19:23:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Gnulpie
And why would I need to grind for isk at all?
If I can chase off everyone from the part of space where I am and no one attacks me and I can do whatever I like to do there without anyone hindering me there, shouldn't it be 'my' space then until someone else comes and throws me out?
What would I need isk there???
I could have miners mining all the ore I need, I could have the blueprints ready to build stuff, I could have occasionally buy some npc fuel for the pos and the ice I could mine. I could build my ships and I could run radar sites to get datacores to invent the t2 items I want to have. Then what the **** would I need to grind for isk to PAY for my system then?
The only reason why I am forced to leave those systems should be OTHER PLAYERS kicking me out. Not some idiotic 'you can't pay your bill so you are losing your system' message created by an anonymous and artificial system.
IT SHOULD BE THE PLAYERS! And nothing else.
Because ISK is the oil that makes the gears of EVE work smoothly. You pay upkeep because you have to pay the peon human workers to maintain your SOV, you have to pay to maintain what you have. It always boggles me that people complain about a tax to pay for having an alliance or owning a system. You have workers! Capsuleers are _not_ the only people in space, and they work for ISK.
It's only artificial because you expect **** to be handed to you.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.08 19:58:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Hertford I like how Jade spews forth a veritable wall of words that is just a rehash of CCPs aims without mentioning any of the issues brought up in the rest of this thread. But then this is a terrible thread; Can you blame Jade for not reading it?
To be brutal. This thread is pretty much the same 20 people repeating "waaa-waaaa-it's-not-fair-waaaaa!" again and again and again interspaced with some more spam. As I said earlier - you guys are missing the point with Dominion. Its not about preserving the status quo its about blowing the status quo into a thousand little pieces and seeing what happens to 0.0 without an omni cyno-jammer security blanket for its current occupants.
You will need to struggle to pay upkeeps in Dominion. Thats the point. You will need to retract the size of your claims and focus to keep your head above water. You will need to adapt or die and if you can't survive there will be other players and player entities that can.
The status quo is boring and deeply unattractive. Eve 0.0 endgame needs to change.
Not sure how I can explain that any better for you.
In other words, to engage in Eve's "endgame pvp experience", you need to grind PvE content. Yes, that's going to really improve things. I can see the queues of Empire dwellers lining up at 0.0 chokepoints already ready to move into 0.0.
Let us know when you finally get the point, preferably in one or two sentences, not pages.
_YES_. To do ENDGAME PVP you need the freakin resources to back such a campaign up. And that will require a fully capable alliance/corp. One that has income from many different sources, including the carebare stuff pvp always hate.
If you don't like it, tough ****. Obviously changes should be made, to buff the benfits _and_ nerf lvl 4 empire missions. But all the same, hold and maintaining a sov should be _hard_.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.08 20:14:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Prognosys
Originally by: Dharh _YES_. To do ENDGAME PVP you need the freakin resources to back such a campaign up. And that will require a fully capable alliance/corp. One that has income from many different sources, including the carebare stuff pvp always hate.
If you don't like it, tough ****. Obviously changes should be made, to buff the benfits _and_ nerf lvl 4 empire missions. But all the same, hold and maintaining a sov should be _hard_.
That's the entire ****ing point of this debate. We're saying that the benefits, especially compared to L4s, are too low. You're basically saying 'well if we ignore the bad thing you're complaining about, everything's fine!'
Because for all intents and purposes _nothing_ they do will probably work out of the gate. They need to see the ISK flows of Dominion and then tweak it. I do not support making it uber now, and then nerfing it later. If the income is not high enough buff it after the fact.
They can also deal with lvl 4 missions later. Or maybe don't have to at all, if equilibrium can be made with 0.0.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.08 20:39:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Hertford Enjoy the small gang PvP when there's 50+ people in each system!
Did you just say that? I need to wash out my eyes to make sure.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.08 21:41:00 -
[7]
Quote: YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
YES. Provided you don't limit yourself to only ratting and farming moon goo.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.08 22:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sally Bestonge
Originally by: Dharh YES. Provided you don't limit yourself to only ratting and farming moon goo.
very few alliances allow moon goo to be an integral part of personal income.
in other words, it sounds like you want moon goo to push earning ISK in 0.0 over the edge, outside of providing income alliances need to hold sov / do reimbursements (you're dumb)
HURR. Moon goo and ratting are pretty good profits. They just aren't going to be good _enough_ for the new costs. Thus you will need to diversify. I don't want moon good to be what 'push[es] earning ISK in 0.0 over the edge'. However, I seriously think its a broken concept that ratting and moon goo could ever possibly be enough to sustain a sov.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.08 22:34:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sethur Blackcoat Edited by: Sethur Blackcoat on 08/11/2009 21:53:31
Originally by: Dharh YES. Provided you don't limit yourself to only ratting and farming moon goo.
Sorry but those are the two most profitable reliable ways of isk generation in 0.0. vOv
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
Be that as it may. I think that could change, and should. Personally I wish all forms of gaining ISK had built in diminishing returns (like X number of bounties to collect per 24 hours, or X rats spawn per 24 hours). Then these diminishing returns would be upgraded through the sov system. If you do a bit of each thing you can sustain yourself, if you focus on only one thing it would be impossible.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.09 01:36:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Dharh on 09/11/2009 01:36:46
Originally by: Korodan
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Orb Lati The key point is, brining more mineral into the system without out increasing the demand is not going to make miners any more money and will just end up tanking the prices even further.
Mineral prices will not tank anymore than they are now. If they do then it would be profitable to build T1 ships, insure them, and self destruct them. Insurance will hold mineral prices to a certain price.
There's a simple and quick way to cause mineral prices to rise - nerf compounds dropped by rouge drones. Nearly all of the game's minerals come from there now, with a trickle from refining.
Kinda this. IMO this right here supersedes _all_ this other crap over 0.0
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.09 02:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Korodan There's a simple and quick way to cause mineral prices to rise - nerf compounds dropped by rouge drones. Nearly all of the game's minerals come from there now, with a trickle from refining.
Yes, because the way to fix 0.0 is to completely screw over eight regions of it. And no, drone compounds aren't a big part of the problem - they're maybe a quarter of minerals, tops. Disproportionately high in nocxium, and to a lesser extent zydrine, but they're not that huge a part of the market. What's far bigger is mission/ratting loot drops, the T1 stuff that always winds up in a refinery. I believe that more minerals are produced that way than from all mining combined.
If you tell me who's excited enough mining all those minerals needed that are currently coming from loot, then you could do away with all the crappy Tech 1 loot imho. Unfortuantely there's not alot of people willing to sit in a mining-barge for several hours a day, for the current value of the minerals. But hey, I'd like to see mining-ops again like we had some 4 or 5 years back in time
There are more than enough miners. If on the _off_ chance that there was a true lack of supply of minerals due to it being 'too boring' there are plenty of things that have been suggested over the years by players to add some more activity to mining.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.09 02:47:00 -
[12]
I have a 40+ hour a week job and I still manage almost 6 hours a day in EVE. WTF are you tards talking about?
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.09 02:58:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kara Mitsui
Originally by: Mcon99
Actually don't know why it took me so long to think of this.
CCP - Level 1 and 2 missions in high sec. Level 3's in low only. Level 4's in 0.0 only.
Game play leveled.
It took you so long to think of this because you didn't think of it - I wrote it on scrapheap challenge about an hour ago. it's what we need but it's not going to happen in a million years.
This proposal is OLD. Far as I can tell its a no go from CCP. More likely, and certainly would help things alot is diminishing returns for missions (enough for an hour or three of missioning per day), nerf mission 4 a bit (maybe alot), buff missions in low/null, add an agent upgrade for sov.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.09 05:13:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Stucks alt how much pages have we had without a dev post?
Since they went to sleep maybe? Jesus, they have to sleep sometime. Give it a freakin rest.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.09 05:26:00 -
[15]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Originally by: Mkiaki Boy you "endgame" players really know how to spit the proverbial dummy don't you.
What the hell do you think we do all day? Run missions?
What hes talking about is the fact that some null secers are so full of themselves that they think they are doing the 'endgame', when in fact there is no such thing as 'endgame' in EVE. Some parts are harder than others, some parts have newest features or content, some parts are the most uber ISK/hour. None of it is endgame.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.09 07:12:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Korodan Edited by: Korodan on 09/11/2009 07:10:17
Originally by: Scouty McScoutersen Edited by: Scouty McScoutersen on 09/11/2009 06:55:54 the obvious answer is they don't want to increase 0.0 isk and cause inflation, or decrease empire isk and cause carebear (ie most of the people playing this game) ragequits.
nullseccers are screwed and the only way to stay viable is to have an alt running missions in empire, oh well
At this point we need inflation because some ships are selling at near insurance fraud prices, if it gets to a certain point you could literally have people buying ships, insuring them, then just undocking and blowing it up.
edit: I'm not at a machine that can run EVE right now, can someone tell me if any T1 ship selling in Jita has finally reached insurance fraud prices? Last I checked they were getting pretty damn close.
This has happened a few times in EVE history. Eventually the cost of the ships rise again due to the demand. Go figure.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.09 08:14:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tesal Edited by: Tesal on 09/11/2009 07:57:00 I call it like I see it.
Personal income is not the problem, corp and alliance level income is the issue. On the corp and alliance level, you have to be able to pay for Sov infrastructure, ship replacement, POS and POS gear, cap ships and so on. These costs are substantial, and if you can't pool resources effectively, you can't get it to work.
Its irrelevant if players support themselves as individuals, leadership won't have time to rat usually, and will have to front the costs for POS gear, fuel, equipment and the cost of a ship replacement program. That takes billions even for a small alliance. So unless you can get to cash flow, what leader is not going to eternally bleed cash to support their alliance? It doesn't work. It leaves them working all the time just so other people can play.
How individual players get their isk is of secondary importance frankly, because if you can't even get set up as a corp or alliance in 0.0, earning a living there as an individual is impossible.
*edit I would add that the place where personal income enters, is tax, that only affects killing rats, nothing else, not mining, not wormholes, nothing. The only other corp/alliance income source is moons. Other income sources exist, but don't dump isk directly into the corp wallet easily. Maximum tax I could charge is 20% probably, 40% is too high to keep players. The rewards/upgrades will never be able to make up for a situation where a 40% tax is required for the corp to stay in 0.0.
That's not entirely true. My guild for instance specifically does mining ops with which it taxes a certain percentage of the ore. It's not the same auto-tax from missions/ratting but all the same corps/alliance can make ISK from mining of their members and it can be quite profitable.
What alliances are going to have to do now is gather corps to fill in the roles. Such as a mining corp, ratting corp, exploration corp, etc and assign them. They surely can get the taxes needs from such corps to pay for alliance costs.
Whether the upgrades are enough to entice the necessary people from empire to fill those roles is another story. It is gonna need to be substantial enough for the risks involve. There is a reason many corps forgo 0.0 and do most of their stuff in empire + WH. Alliances are going to have to guarantee the safety of their non-pvp member corps.
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