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Rordan D'Kherr
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.07.01 13:00:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Rordan D''Kherr on 01/07/2009 13:13:43
Originally by: Barak Tor tl;dr get some ****ing experience and find a solution to the problem other then 'nerf it'
Adult ppl tried that kind of argument in the nano discussion as well as in the ECM discussion. You know the result...
Originally by: 4THELULZ Now the Falcons, I flew those, and the only realistic counter to THAT was, you guessed it, more falcons. That or a 200km+ sniper battleship, which is a bit of a stupid thing for a smaller gang to be lugging around with them.
Omg, you are full of fail. You still cannot believe that there are a plenty of counters against Falcons, Rooks and Scorpions, do you? Stay away from that discussion until you have an idea what this thread is about (pvp beyond tank & gank). The "I fly Falcons myself" thingy is just lol.
Originally by: 4THELULZ Remote rep groups? Ok you could get more RRers, but unlike sitting at 200km range or going 10km/s, they are FAR from an I-win or I-escape button. They can be tackled down fine, and are vulnerable to ECM and cap warfare. While counters to the Falcon were thin on the ground, more inventive people here could come up with far more ways to deal with RR.
So you are saying the following: There were no real counters to Falcons (thus had to be nerfed) but to RR BS gangs (thus shouldn't be nerfed). Falcons were impossible to beat (so nerf it) but RR BS gangs can be beaten easily (do not nerf it). Remove Falcons as counter to RR BS gangs but do not touch RR BS gangs. Oh yeah, no doubt you are a smart guy
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GoldenX
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Posted - 2009.07.01 13:17:00 -
[32]
Edited by: GoldenX on 01/07/2009 13:17:37 a carebear letter to ccp...
omg I was the first time in pvp space and all those guys were doing 11k speed and my raven only does 123 km :( pls nerf.
omg I was the 2nd time in pvp space and they were killing me with missles although i was flying an af which is very effective against guns :( pls nerf.
omg I was the 3th time in pvp space fully prepaired because you did a great thing nerf all I asked for...WTF 20 bs in a spider form OMG!!!!!!!!!!! my gf ran away cause shes scared off spiders pls pls pls ccp nerf cause they have big advantage......
Damn carebears.
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BiggestT
Caldari Oz Space Diggers
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Posted - 2009.07.01 13:28:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Gypsio III Make remote armour reps have fitting requirements similar to those of remote shield transfers.
This, Its no wonder that it sucks to shield tank in rr gangs EVE history
t2 precisions |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.01 13:30:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Mikayla Grey
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Hoo Is It's time that RR BS Groups go the way of nanos and Falcons...
Get to it CCP
ECM, neuts, damps (lock time), ECM bursts, smartbomb gangs, bombers with lockbreaker bombs, bombers with void bombs, bombers with damage bombs, snipers, pure DPS
Here, just some counters you probably never thought of.
Any counter that doesnt revolve around a group of T1 PvE fit caracals or drakes are considered invalid for the purpose of whining.
fyp
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Duke Starbuckington
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Posted - 2009.07.01 13:33:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr Edited by: Rordan D''Kherr on 01/07/2009 13:13:43
Originally by: Barak Tor tl;dr get some ****ing experience and find a solution to the problem other then 'nerf it'
Adult ppl tried that kind of argument in the nano discussion as well as in the ECM discussion. You know the result...
Originally by: 4THELULZ Now the Falcons, I flew those, and the only realistic counter to THAT was, you guessed it, more falcons. That or a 200km+ sniper battleship, which is a bit of a stupid thing for a smaller gang to be lugging around with them.
Omg, you are full of fail. You still cannot believe that there are a plenty of counters against Falcons, Rooks and Scorpions, do you? Stay away from that discussion until you have an idea what this thread is about (pvp beyond tank & gank). The "I fly Falcons myself" thingy is just lol.
Originally by: 4THELULZ Remote rep groups? Ok you could get more RRers, but unlike sitting at 200km range or going 10km/s, they are FAR from an I-win or I-escape button. They can be tackled down fine, and are vulnerable to ECM and cap warfare. While counters to the Falcon were thin on the ground, more inventive people here could come up with far more ways to deal with RR.
So you are saying the following: There were no real counters to Falcons (thus had to be nerfed) but to RR BS gangs (thus shouldn't be nerfed). Falcons were impossible to beat (so nerf it) but RR BS gangs can be beaten easily (do not nerf it). Remove Falcons as counter to RR BS gangs but do not touch RR BS gangs. Oh yeah, no doubt you are a smart guy
Try to make some form of sense.
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Rordan D'Kherr
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.07.01 14:25:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Duke Starbuckington Try to make some form of sense.
You wouldn't get it anyways obviously.
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Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.07.01 16:18:00 -
[37]
So, everyhting I used has been nerfed to oblivions. Nanos, check, ECM, check, Missles, check...
Time to hit some of the other people where it hurts.
Pick Three: Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success |
Duke Starbuckington
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Posted - 2009.07.01 16:26:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz So, everyhting I used has been nerfed to oblivions. Nanos, check, ECM, check, Missles, check...
Time to hit some of the other people where it hurts.
To oblivion? rofl
Nano: Still a viable way to fit ships, just doesn't make you invincible. ECM: Still very strong, blackbirds and rooks-a-plenty. Missiles: Are fine, better than fine infact they're very very good. (ok some sizes are iffy but on the whole, fine.)
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.07.01 16:27:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz So, everyhting I used has been nerfed to oblivions. Missles, check...
lolwat? Missiles have been nothing but boosted in the last year.
Torps and heavy missiles becoming useful in pvp? Check
Ravens (and in part, typhoons) becoming dps kings? Check
Heavy missile drakes becoming the most common bc (and somewhat, the most common sub-BS ship) in 0.0? Check
Stealth bombers becoming useful by being changed to torp missiles? Check
Capital torps receiving a mild boost to counter smartbomb death? Check
Caldari arguably the second base all around race? Check
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abrasive soap
Caldari Corporation 12345
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Posted - 2009.07.01 21:03:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr Edited by: Rordan D''Kherr on 01/07/2009 13:13:43
Originally by: Barak Tor tl;dr get some ****ing experience and find a solution to the problem other then 'nerf it'
Adult ppl tried that kind of argument in the nano discussion as well as in the ECM discussion. You know the result...
Originally by: 4THELULZ Now the Falcons, I flew those, and the only realistic counter to THAT was, you guessed it, more falcons. That or a 200km+ sniper battleship, which is a bit of a stupid thing for a smaller gang to be lugging around with them.
Omg, you are full of fail. You still cannot believe that there are a plenty of counters against Falcons, Rooks and Scorpions, do you? Stay away from that discussion until you have an idea what this thread is about (pvp beyond tank & gank). The "I fly Falcons myself" thingy is just lol.
Originally by: 4THELULZ Remote rep groups? Ok you could get more RRers, but unlike sitting at 200km range or going 10km/s, they are FAR from an I-win or I-escape button. They can be tackled down fine, and are vulnerable to ECM and cap warfare. While counters to the Falcon were thin on the ground, more inventive people here could come up with far more ways to deal with RR.
So you are saying the following: There were no real counters to Falcons (thus had to be nerfed) but to RR BS gangs (thus shouldn't be nerfed). Falcons were impossible to beat (so nerf it) but RR BS gangs can be beaten easily (do not nerf it). Remove Falcons as counter to RR BS gangs but do not touch RR BS gangs. Oh yeah, no doubt you are a smart guy
protip: falcons got a range nerf and a jam strength buff
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deathstriker seven
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Posted - 2009.07.01 21:10:00 -
[41]
Bad idea for one very good reason.
Without RR gangs would need to rely more on sheer overwhelming numbers than ever.
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4THELULZ
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Posted - 2009.07.01 22:43:00 -
[42]
Quote:
Omg, you are full of fail. You still cannot believe that there are a plenty of counters against Falcons, Rooks and Scorpions, do you? Stay away from that discussion until you have an idea what this thread is about (pvp beyond tank & gank). The "I fly Falcons myself" thingy is just lol.
Flew. As in, pre-nerf. I got bored of that. And it seems you be you that's completely missed the point here. I was using it as an example for a situation where a nerf is justified.
Quote:
So you are saying the following: There were no real counters to Falcons (thus had to be nerfed) but to RR BS gangs (thus shouldn't be nerfed). Falcons were impossible to beat (so nerf it) but RR BS gangs can be beaten easily (do not nerf it). Remove Falcons as counter to RR BS gangs but do not touch RR BS gangs. Oh yeah, no doubt you are a smart guy
When exactly did you get dropped on your head? The ECM nerf has been and gone, I'm not saying nerf it again, but ECM remains a viable counter to RR, among many other things.
I'll put it nice and simply so with some help from an adult you may be able to understand it:
None or only extremely limited counters exist? Needs a nerf. Wide range of counters available? Use them, don't nerf it.
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Mikayla Grey
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.02 00:22:00 -
[43]
Originally by: The Tzar
It was the whingers refusing to adapt that originally called for nerfs. Unable to use game mechanics that many better pvp'ers used to overcome their difficulties.
Why would that change?
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Kurfin
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Posted - 2009.07.02 09:20:00 -
[44]
I've haven't actually tried this as a counter to a RRBS gang, I'm just throwing it out as a suggestion.
Tech 1 frigates with ECM bursts? Cheap and disposable.
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Brem Watson
Caldari Insurance Claim Services
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Posted - 2009.07.02 10:32:00 -
[45]
I say stop all the nerfs so all the whiners can continue to lose.
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.07.02 10:37:00 -
[46]
No matter what people may think, after nano and ecm nerf the ships in question are still very much useful, although less effective than before - which is just fine.
Why nerf RR on the other hand I really don't understand. It's a brute force approach, it does not mean you can always mwd away and gtfo, or that your opponent can't lock, or anything of the sort as some comparisons pointed to. It means sit in place and hope for the best. Also typically a BS will do way more dps than it can provide remote repping to compensate. Meaning clash of 2 BS gangs will always see targets drop fast until one side has been sufficiently reduced, decreasing their dps.
What should be done IMO is reduce the cpu requirements on shield transfers to make rr shield gangs viable, for variety's sake. If ravens, tempests etc could fit remote shields in the spare highs without filling their lows with co-processors, we might get some interesting alternative rr gang setups.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2009.07.02 10:43:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Vrabac No matter what people may think, after nano and ecm nerf the ships in question are still very much useful, although less effective than before - which is just fine.
Why nerf RR on the other hand I really don't understand. It's a brute force approach, it does not mean you can always mwd away and gtfo, or that your opponent can't lock, or anything of the sort as some comparisons pointed to. It means sit in place and hope for the best. Also typically a BS will do way more dps than it can provide remote repping to compensate. Meaning clash of 2 BS gangs will always see targets drop fast until one side has been sufficiently reduced, decreasing their dps.
What should be done IMO is reduce the cpu requirements on shield transfers to make rr shield gangs viable, for variety's sake. If ravens, tempests etc could fit remote shields in the spare highs without filling their lows with co-processors, we might get some interesting alternative rr gang setups.
This man makes sense.
average BS module suses say 1k grid and 30 cpu: armor RR = right on for cpu, but less on grid. shield RR = tripple the usual cpu and still a good deal of grid. does need ballanece, also RR rigs for armor and not shield is very poor indeed.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.02 10:58:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Kurfin I've haven't actually tried this as a counter to a RRBS gang, I'm just throwing it out as a suggestion.
Tech 1 frigates with ECM bursts? Cheap and disposable.
Kamikaze Scorpion, tbh: High: As many large smartbombs as will fit. Mids: MWD, cap booster, ECM burst, multispec ECMs Lows: DCU II, EANM II, 1600mm plates
IIRC the scorp's ECM bonus does apply to the ECM Burst strength.
Warp the kamikazi scorp right into the middle of the RR blob, hit the burst and the smarties (3 or 4 large smarts multiplied by eg: 20 RR BS is a very worthwhile amount of damage, and more importantly if the RR gang is not well disciplined then they will overload the broadcasts with calls for reps, drowning out the target who is primary). As soon as the scorp lands, it should align to warp out. I reckon that it will stand quite a good chance of escaping. If not, well... insurance + cheap fit.
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Lucian Alucard
Caldari Black Vice Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.02 11:29:00 -
[49]
I had this whole long post written as to why nerfing RR's is bad but then I just will simplify it by saying nerfing is bad period. If RRs' are causing problems then CCP should hit the reset button and go old school with ECM and make the Scorpion matter.
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MukkBarovian
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Posted - 2009.07.02 13:09:00 -
[50]
My hurricane went 5 klicks. No faction gear or snakes. Then I got nerfed.
Now, the balance is probably hugely better. I was not necesarily happy though as it went down. As a non ecm pilot on the other hand I'm pretty happy with the falcon nerf.
Now is not the time to whine about RRBS. Now is the time to whine about the Ammar ascendancy in the current metagame. My only problem with that, is that I don't see ammar as being ascendent on anything but the largest ships. As a battlecruiser pilot I'm just fine with it.
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Arcalia
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Posted - 2009.07.03 12:00:00 -
[51]
so, seatbelts should be mandatory in all empire space, speed restrictions of 30 m/s should be lethally enforced by concord, health and safety warnings should be applied to all modules and all weapons should not fire live ammunition as you could hurt someone with that.
we should also nerf good fcs, as a good fc is an unfair advantage. people should not be allowed to make or have more than 50 million isk, as wealth is an unfair advantage. skill points should be capped at 880,000 as high sps are an unfair advantage.
in fact, the game should be called sims in space and be safe enough for a baby to play.
let's nerf everything...
f***ing idiot.
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Rordan D'Kherr
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.07.03 14:33:00 -
[52]
Originally by: 4THELULZ When exactly did you get dropped on your head?
No need to get personal, boi.
Originally by: 4THELULZ I'll put it nice and simply so with some help from an adult you may be able to understand it:
None or only extremely limited counters exist? Needs a nerf. Wide range of counters available? Use them, don't nerf it.
Thank you. But tell me why the ECM range, webs, neuts, nano have been nerfed then? All of them had (and have) good counter methods, there were no need for nerfs, just forum tears. And here is the point.
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Poses
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Posted - 2009.07.03 14:55:00 -
[53]
i dunno... anyone who says everything they fly gets nerfed.... quit only training FOTM stuff? EVE is very balanced right now and while it might be the reign of the harbinger, that dosn't make any other the other ships less valid.
AND when the finally boost minmatar you can be a pretentious ***** and say **** like 'its okay that i fly the hurricane because i flew minmatar when they sucked!'
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Mikayla Grey
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.03 15:25:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Poses that dosn't make any other the other ships less valid.
Yes it does. There are only a few common gang setups/tactics used. Your ships/setup need to fit in that type of gang. Usually there is one ship doing that job the best (amarr).
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Hoo Is
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Posted - 2009.07.03 23:13:00 -
[55]
you all fail... everyone knows that RR is the FOTM and will be berfed next
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Nausfaratu
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Posted - 2009.07.04 00:20:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Nausfaratu on 04/07/2009 00:20:29 I just find in amazing how people often come up against something that they canÆt handle. And more often than not try to get it nerfÆd instead of using some thought and planning to overcome and adapt. One of the benefits of a good RR fleet is to aggravate the opponent. I have flown in and against RR fleets and there are ways to counter their strategy. And it is not a nerf. Just good planning.
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ShadowGod56
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Posted - 2009.07.04 00:27:00 -
[57]
Nerfing RRing will not help the situation in this case.
if they make it rep less then now, it will only encourage blobbing more because you will need more people in the blob to effectivily RR your fleet memebers
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2009.07.04 01:26:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Mikayla Grey
Originally by: Poses that dosn't make any other the other ships less valid.
Yes it does. There are only a few common gang setups/tactics used. Your ships/setup need to fit in that type of gang. Usually there is one ship doing that job the best (amarr).
Let's just nerf amarr eh?
Game is atm really well ballanced in many regards, especially compared to what it was 2 years ago. Making serious changes and nerfs will just ruin this imo.
This pretty much reminds me of talks I had the "luck" of listening to, where "veterans" were preaching newbies how caldari suck for pvp, how shield tank is bad for pvp and how everyone and his dog should train amarr or gallente because they are good for pvp. Why? Because it's like that in a RR BS gang.
Because somehow somewhere along the way... pvp became RR BS gang.
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SFX Bladerunner
Minmatar Black Serpent Technologies
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Posted - 2009.07.04 01:47:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Kind of a flawed arguement. Going by what CCP seems to want (bigger and bigger blobs), we should be nerfing anything that allows a smaller fleet to win against the odds.
This includes most forms of ewar, speed fits, RR, and (to an extent) sniper hacs/ships. RR will probably be the next thing to be nerfed.
summation of your post:
NERF TITANS! __________________________________________________
History is much like an endless waltz, the three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.. |
abrasive soap
Caldari Corporation 12345
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Posted - 2009.07.04 02:55:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Vrabac
Originally by: Mikayla Grey
Originally by: Poses that dosn't make any other the other ships less valid.
Yes it does. There are only a few common gang setups/tactics used. Your ships/setup need to fit in that type of gang. Usually there is one ship doing that job the best (amarr).
Let's just nerf amarr eh?
Game is atm really well ballanced in many regards, especially compared to what it was 2 years ago. Making serious changes and nerfs will just ruin this imo.
This pretty much reminds me of talks I had the "luck" of listening to, where "veterans" were preaching newbies how caldari suck for pvp, how shield tank is bad for pvp and how everyone and his dog should train amarr or gallente because they are good for pvp. Why? Because it's like that in a RR BS gang.
Because somehow somewhere along the way... pvp became RR BS gang.
there are many underpowered things right now that need a boost including but not limited to: destroyers (huge sig radius and pretty mediocre damage) myrmidon (it became a large vexor with the drone and nos nerf...) brutix (active tank bonus is a waste) retribution (lacks 2 midslots) vengeance (terrible damage) hawk (no grid, no cpu, useless tanking bonus, terrible damage compared with even tech 1 frigates such as the kestrel) standard missiles (usually impossible to fit on frigates) rocket (horrible dps for the range) heavy assault missiles (missile nerf killed these) cruise missiles (missile nerf killed their role in instapopping small ships that were slow) large projectiles (bad dps, bad ammo capacity, falloff isn't scaled) tempest (the slot layout is terrible) maybe the typhoon (it would be much, much nicer with 5/5 turrets/launchers and more cpu and a bit more grid)
The game still needs tech 2 tier 2 battlecruisers (no more commandships please) and tech 2 tier 3 battleships.
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