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Ulysses Odysseus
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Posted - 2009.06.21 02:41:00 -
[1]
Which race has the best sniping ships? I've been fooling around with several playstyles and am really liking sniping so I wanted to train for ships that are built for that.
I'm thinking amarr maybe?
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El Smol
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Posted - 2009.06.21 02:44:00 -
[2]
I'd say Amarr->Galente->Minmatar->Caldari. Laz0rz r good.
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SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.06.21 02:55:00 -
[3]
I'd Say Amarr > Caldari > Gallente > Minmatar --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
Lt Angus
Caldari End Game. Dead End.
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Posted - 2009.06.21 03:07:00 -
[4]
Originally by: SuiJuris I'd Say Amarr > Caldari > Gallente > Minmatar
this please resize your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Ulysses Odysseus
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Posted - 2009.06.21 03:08:00 -
[5]
Originally by: SuiJuris I'd Say Amarr > Caldari > Gallente > Minmatar
Damn, too bad I'm trained for minmatar right now. They didn't seem like they had good sniping ships. Time to crosstrain to amarr then. :(
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Gneeznow
Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.21 03:13:00 -
[6]
Muninn is pretty good at murdering ceptors at >80km
(in before astrophopic comes along to whine about minmatar as is seemingly his life's work)
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Factio Paucorum
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Posted - 2009.06.21 03:32:00 -
[7]
Each of the races can field a decent sniper ship, but the Amarr are currently the kings of the sniping world. Personally, I've always used a Tempest and had good success, except when it came time to shoot a POS or station (then the tiny clip size sucks monkey balls). The Minmatar are currently getting the short end of the stick. Probably time for all the would-be FOTMers to start training for Minmatar (the nerf pendulum will have to swing back at some point).
...this doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne |
Ulysses Odysseus
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Posted - 2009.06.21 03:55:00 -
[8]
Originally by: FT Diomedes Each of the races can field a decent sniper ship, but the Amarr are currently the kings of the sniping world. Personally, I've always used a Tempest and had good success, except when it came time to shoot a POS or station (then the tiny clip size sucks monkey balls). The Minmatar are currently getting the short end of the stick. Probably time for all the would-be FOTMers to start training for Minmatar (the nerf pendulum will have to swing back at some point).
I'm wondering about this now since it does seem that things are constantly changing so who knows if Amarr will get nerfed heavily? Plus I'm further along with Minmatar anyway so perhaps I should just stick with them.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.21 04:09:00 -
[9]
1) Caldari. Best fleet battleship, and the only race that really supports sniping below the battleship level.
2) Amarr. Second-best fleet battleship, Zealot is a decent sniper, but usually used with pulses.
3) Gallente. Battleships are outclassed by the Rokh in every way, no support at all below battleship level.
4) Minmatar. Laughably bad fleet battleships, and the smaller ships aren't much better. Only the Muninn is even remotely non-comedy, but it's still pretty poor. -----------
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SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.06.21 17:30:00 -
[10]
Any range you can get lasers to shoot out to they will outdamage Railguns, the 7 Tach apoc outdamages the 8 Railgun Rokh at 200+ km So the Apoc is the king of sniping battleships. The Zealot is head and shoulders above the other HAC's for a sniping HAC. I think the Harpy makes a better frigate sniper then the retribution though so you got me there. --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
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achoura
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Posted - 2009.06.21 17:50:00 -
[11]
He asked for race not an individual ship discussion and remember that in fleet individual dps means squat and caldari are the sniper race, the only race in fact to support sniping in all ship classes.
Just for the record, the rokh can drastically both out range and out damage and out tank an apoc and actually cost less. It all comes down to how you fit which is amarrs weak point, their ships are very inflexible leaving the apoc with very little manoeuvring room while rokhs can be used in a range of different sniper fits. |
Gram Hellfire
International House of PWNCakes Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.21 18:06:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Gram Hellfire on 21/06/2009 18:07:51 versatility? all you need is 1: lock and hit past 150 km (with T2 guns) 2: tank a DDD 3: fit a MWD
the Apoc does this very well
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Transmaniacon
Minmatar HOMELESS. Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.06.21 18:09:00 -
[13]
Alright, bring a shield tanking sniper to an armor tanking world and tell me how things pan out. Everyone who mentions 200+km shooting, is not familiar with fleet combat. Most engagements take place between 150 and 180 km.
Amarr are by far the best sniper race, unlike Caldari, they can easily reach that range and still maintain great DPS. The Tach Apoc is a very effective sniping ship for amarr.
Gallente are another great race because their primary sniper, the mega, has a tracking bonus which when using T2 long range ammo is a blessing.
Look at fleet engagements, you will see these ships primarily; Megathron, Apocalypse, Tempest. In a strictly sniper gang, there will be a bit more Caldari, but many long range fleets utilize remote rep, ie. you need an armor tank.
I would suggest to train for Amarr or Gallente for a sniper race.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.06.21 18:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Transmaniacon Alright, bring a shield tanking sniper to an armor tanking world and tell me how things pan out. Everyone who mentions 200+km shooting, is not familiar with fleet combat. Most engagements take place between 150 and 180 km.
Because sniper fleets always have loads of rr support?
A sniper usually dies or it doesnt, not much in between. And more range is always better because, for example, it allows you to move away while aligned and still hit for full damage.
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UMEE
Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.06.21 18:42:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
1) Caldari... the only race that really supports sniping below the battleship level.
what are you talking about man...zealot and the ishtar being a very close second are the best t2 snipe cruisers at 100km range. i guess if you`re further away in large fleets then yes, the eagle is ideal.
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Neuronai
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Posted - 2009.06.21 18:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
3) Gallente. Battleships are outclassed by the Rokh in every way, no support at all below battleship level.
no
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Duke Starbuckington
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Posted - 2009.06.21 19:01:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Neuronai
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
3) Gallente. Battleships are outclassed by the Rokh in every way, no support at all below battleship level.
no
CONTRUCTIVE POSTAN!
How about you actually discuss why, instead of just mindlessly disagreeing with someone.
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Morikai Acler
Caldari Demon Theory Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.06.21 19:12:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Transmaniacon Alright, bring a shield tanking sniper to an armor tanking world and tell me how things pan out. Everyone who mentions 200+km shooting, is not familiar with fleet combat. Most engagements take place between 150 and 180 km.
Amarr are by far the best sniper race, unlike Caldari, they can easily reach that range and still maintain great DPS. The Tach Apoc is a very effective sniping ship for amarr.
Gallente are another great race because their primary sniper, the mega, has a tracking bonus which when using T2 long range ammo is a blessing.
Look at fleet engagements, you will see these ships primarily; Megathron, Apocalypse, Tempest. In a strictly sniper gang, there will be a bit more Caldari, but many long range fleets utilize remote rep, ie. you need an armor tank.
I would suggest to train for Amarr or Gallente for a sniper race.
*looks at my fleet fit rokh* Hmmm my rokh does around 400dps at 200km or more with only 2 dmg mods, apoc is sitting just barely above 300, while still having any relevant buffer tank to make it worth while with t2 tachs. Rokh doesn't even really need scripts in its sensor boosters to target up to around 200km.
Do you actually fly the ships and have proper skills before you talk them down? The rokh is the best fleet ship in game, and I've been in a lot of fleets and can tell you, outside of short range RR, Rokh are usually close to 1/4 or 1/3 of a fleet. |
Neuronai
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Posted - 2009.06.21 19:23:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Neuronai on 21/06/2009 19:24:51
Originally by: Duke Starbuckington
Originally by: Neuronai
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
3) Gallente. Battleships are outclassed by the Rokh in every way, no support at all below battleship level.
no
CONTRUCTIVE POSTAN!
How about you actually discuss why, instead of just mindlessly disagreeing with someone.
It wasn't mindless disagreement, I just didn't think it would be necessary to back up why I said no considering what he said - that Gallente battleships are outclassed by the Rokh in every way.
But okay, if you insist:
[Megathron, Sniping Megathron] Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Computer II F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Targeting Range 100MN MicroWarpdrive II
425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L [empty high slot]
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
DPS: 350 Optimal: 192km
[Rokh, Sniping Rokh] Reactor Control Unit II Tracking Enhancer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II
425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L 425mm Railgun II, Spike L
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
DPS: 321 Optimal: 254km
As you can see, although this Rokh fit gets more optimal, the Megathron fit gets more DPS. Therefore, with consideration to these fits, the Rokh does not outclass a Gallente battleship in every way.
In fact, if you wanted to do damage at a closer sniping range, say, 100km, the Megathron would out DPS the Rokh even more so.
Oh, and as for "no support at all below battleship level", you can set up a Thorax with rails, or a Vexor with drone links.
As for the best sniping race, i'd call Amarr for sure.
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Duke Starbuckington
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Posted - 2009.06.21 19:23:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Transmaniacon Alright, bring a shield tanking sniper to an armor tanking world and tell me how things pan out. Everyone who mentions 200+km shooting, is not familiar with fleet combat. Most engagements take place between 150 and 180 km.
Amarr are by far the best sniper race, unlike Caldari, they can easily reach that range and still maintain great DPS. The Tach Apoc is a very effective sniping ship for amarr.
Gallente are another great race because their primary sniper, the mega, has a tracking bonus which when using T2 long range ammo is a blessing.
Look at fleet engagements, you will see these ships primarily; Megathron, Apocalypse, Tempest. In a strictly sniper gang, there will be a bit more Caldari, but many long range fleets utilize remote rep, ie. you need an armor tank.
I would suggest to train for Amarr or Gallente for a sniper race.
Greater range also means its harder for targets to move out of range. Greater range doesn't just mean, "LOL IM 200km AWAY AND SAFE AND SOUND!" Also the sniper rokh still has enough buffer to survive a DD, while the other sniper BS's have tanks made of paper.
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Neuronai
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Posted - 2009.06.21 19:32:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Duke Starbuckington
Also the sniper rokh still has enough buffer to survive a DD, while the other sniper BS's have tanks made of paper.
And the other sniper BS's will do more damage...Whether the fight will favour a tanked sniper or a DPS sniper is obviously circumstancial.
Also, "the other sniper BS's" don't have to be set up like paper. You can sacrifice tracking enhancers/mag stabs on a Mega just like a Rokh pilot has to sacrifice tracking computers/sensor boosters. |
FT Diomedes
Gallente Factio Paucorum
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Posted - 2009.06.21 20:10:00 -
[22]
I haven't seen very many of the setups posted here on killboards, which tells me there is more theory-crafting going on than relating actual experience (with a couple of exceptions). |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.21 20:25:00 -
[23]
Neuronai, a rokh can pretty much do everything a mega does but better. Only if you are sniping at 100km distance (against hacs for example), the mega will have better tracking due to its bonus.
And w00t the mega gets a 35% bonus to tracking which is usefull when sniping at 150km. Meanwhile a rokh can use faction ammo, so compared to spike gets effectively a 300% bonus to tracking.
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WELLTIMEDECMJAM
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Posted - 2009.06.21 21:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Neuronai As you can see, although this Rokh fit gets more optimal, the Megathron fit gets more DPS. Therefore, with consideration to these fits, the Rokh does not outclass a Gallente battleship in every way.
In fact, if you wanted to do damage at a closer sniping range, say, 100km, the Megathron would out DPS the Rokh even more so.
The problem with your Megathron fit being that the first time a stiff wind gets near you it'll pop.
Compare which ship can do more DPS @ sniper-acceptable ranges while being able to survive a DD. HINT: Rokh is better. |
Neuronai
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Posted - 2009.06.21 21:40:00 -
[25]
I'm not trying to discuss which ship is better, I was just refuting what that guy said about the Rokh outclassing Gallente BS at sniping in every way. You can go on about DDs and optimal ranges, but my point is that the Mega does have its own advantages, e.g., DPS and tracking. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.21 21:45:00 -
[26]
And the point is, it only has tracking advantage when it doesnt need to use spike, and it only has dps advantage when it can use antimatter (which isnt sniping). |
Neuronai
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Posted - 2009.06.21 21:48:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Furb Killer Neuronai, a rokh can pretty much do everything a mega does but better.
Gank? Nah. Mega does 300+ more DPS than a Rokh with the same damage mods.
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achoura
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Posted - 2009.06.21 21:56:00 -
[28]
The noob error most people make with rokhs is a lack of ti ammo, ppl who rush to spike loose not only tracking but damage. If you fit a paper rokh like that mega there it can spit antimatter at 150km. The eve community has evolved around the concept of "the best" i.e. something must be better than everything else therefore something must be fotm, currently amarr. Problems is amarr are very much mid ranged, in all ship classes caldari have the superior long range ships.
Amarr frigs cant snipe at 80km, amarr ti cruisers cant snipe at 120km, amarr tii cruisers cant snipe at 180-230km nor can their command ships and their bs max at about 190km when fitted comparatively* to a 425 rokh which is hitting at 250km. Calradi were created as the sniping race and they still are which is why they make up the bulk of fleets. Even mega pilots can get a rokh and snipe effectively with t1 guns with equal/greater damage and tank than an apoc with all skills at lvl 5. Thing is, any reasonably competent pilot already understands this which is why they're out in 0.0 rather than shepherding noobs on the forums
Something most people like to, conveniently, forget is that mega beams are the amarr equivalent to the 425 rail gun. Tachs are above the 425s and 1400s, they have no equal which is why their fitting is so horrid. Furthermost a rokh does not need to sacrifice a gun slot to fit them and deal with the horrid tracking of aurora. ***The EVE servers and their patches*** |
Red Spring
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Posted - 2009.06.21 22:04:00 -
[29]
the error (mostly Caldari) is to say Amarr/Caldari then Gallente/minimater
this kind of vote only reflects on the Eve population distribution - the vast majority of players are Caldari. So votes are not unbiased.
Minimater and Gallente require intensive hands on management, the need players to use their brain, to do some maths, to use their speed to dictate range, Caldari ships for example are click and snooze technology. If Mater ships are properly set up they equal Amarr lazers.
(I'm a raven flying ratter )
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.06.21 22:05:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Neuronai
Originally by: Furb Killer Neuronai, a rokh can pretty much do everything a mega does but better.
Gank? Nah. Mega does 300+ more DPS than a Rokh with the same damage mods.
proof or stfu?
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Neuronai
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Posted - 2009.06.21 22:19:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Neuronai
Originally by: Furb Killer Neuronai, a rokh can pretty much do everything a mega does but better.
Gank? Nah. Mega does 300+ more DPS than a Rokh with the same damage mods.
proof or stfu?
[Rokh, Gank Rokh] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
[empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
Hammerhead II x5
-----> 902 DPS
[Megathron, Gank Mega] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot] [empty low slot]
[empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot] [empty med slot]
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L [empty high slot]
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
Ogre II x5
-----> 1130 DPS
When EFT warrioring earlier, I forgot I had Void loaded in the Megathron set up so the DPS difference is closer to 200+, my mistake.
I'm not saying ones better than the other, the Rokh gives a nice balance between gank and tank...But in answer to "a rokh can pretty much do everything a mega does but better":
No, it doesn't ^^
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WELLTIMEDECMJAM
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Posted - 2009.06.21 22:27:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Neuronai Gank? Nah. Mega does 300+ more DPS than a Rokh with the same damage mods.
Okay, so your point is that a Mega can do a better gank setup in a thread about snipers?
Oh ok. |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.06.22 06:36:00 -
[33]
... |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.22 08:20:00 -
[34]
omg |
Panzram
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.06.22 08:35:00 -
[35]
in EFT its the Rokh in Eve Online its the Apoc the megathron is a good well rounded Bs, but dont snype like the rokh and apoc minmatar bs have issues and at present arent very good. |
Neuronai
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Posted - 2009.06.22 08:38:00 -
[36]
Originally by: WELLTIMEDECMJAM
Originally by: Neuronai Gank? Nah. Mega does 300+ more DPS than a Rokh with the same damage mods.
Okay, so your point is that a Mega can do a better gank setup in a thread about snipers?
Oh ok.
Yeah you're right, sorry for the derailment. The reason I posted about gank set ups was against this point:
Originally by: Furb Killer Neuronai, a rokh can pretty much do everything a mega does but better.
I was just trying to explain how this wasn't true by using DPS set ups as an example. |
Ap0ll0n
Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.06.22 08:51:00 -
[37]
Apoc can do whatever the Rokh can, only better.
What makes the Apoc superior to the Rokh imo is the fact that the Apoc with BS 5, have better cap stability than the Rokh, it can insta switch ammo, never have to reload, maybe 10-15 dps less than the Rokh with only 6 guns, is armor tanked and so on.
Untill they (CCP) removes that awefull 249km barrier, the Rokh is second when talking sniper BS¦s.. |
achoura
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Posted - 2009.06.22 09:02:00 -
[38]
The subject is sniping and you come along and tell everyone which is better at 2km when the rest of the world is discussing/explaining 200km. It's a phrase not a literal expression and you're just digging your own hole deeper.
Rokh > mega/apoc/mael Vulture > damnation/eos/claymore Ferox > cyclone/brutix/proph Cerb/Eagle > zealot/munnin/ishtar Moa/Caracal > all Harpy > all Merlin > all |
Tom Gunn
Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.06.22 10:26:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Tom Gunn on 22/06/2009 10:29:36 Edited by: Tom Gunn on 22/06/2009 10:29:08
Originally by: achoura The subject is sniping and you come along and tell everyone which is better at 2km when the rest of the world is discussing/explaining 200km. It's a phrase not a literal expression and you're just digging your own hole deeper.
Rokh > mega/apoc/mael Vulture > damnation/eos/claymore Ferox > cyclone/brutix/proph Cerb/Eagle > zealot/munnin/ishtar Moa/Caracal > all Harpy > all Merlin > all
Being practical - a fleet engages at the range of its lowest range sniper - so in terms of BS - that means a fleet will be at 150-200km, hacs will be around 100km.
Because of this Apocs -> Rokhs, megathrons, tempest Zealots -> Munnin, Eagles & Diemos
Ishtars are not snipers - but i assume thats a mistake ;)
Caldari ships tend to lack damage bonus on their snipers (this is what makes the eagle so bad imo - that and low turrets counts - the ferox lacking a turret slot over say the brutix).
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FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.22 10:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Tom Gunn Being practical - a fleet engages at the range of its lowest range sniper - so in terms of BS - that means a fleet will be at 150-200km
Since the actual range is lower then what Rokh can do there are 2 things that can be done to adjust the fit: 1) Fit a tank, since Rokh can reach that range with no tracking computers; DD tank with no rigs woohooo!!! 2) Keep your ton of tracking computers and use faction iridium ammo instead of spikes - same damage, 4 times more tracking, 60% cap use. When needed can reload to spikes and give a nasty surprise to some inty scout at 240km. |
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Ziester
Caldari Echolalia. Shangri-La.
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Posted - 2009.06.22 11:21:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Ziester on 22/06/2009 11:23:29
Originally by: Neuronai
[Rokh, Gank Rokh] -----> 902 DPS
You must do something wrong. My rokh delivers something like 1000-1100 DPS ( 4 MFS, CN Ammo, 6 Neutrons, 2 Ions, 5 Hammerheads ) Tops at 1115 with All Lvl 5 skills.
Any reasonnable Ganking blokh should at least load CN Ammo and pack some Null in cargobay.
I kinda agree with Furb on one point though. It DOES better than the Mega for tanking. when the Mega's armor's gone, you're fried. And a HG Crystal'ed (also boosted?) Rokh pilot (yes I am) can tank a gank Mega long enough to brake its buffer and kill it.
902 is surprisingly low for a "gank" ship.
---
To get back to subject, probably Amarr get the edge damage-wise, while the Rokh owns range-wise. But since I've never seen a Rokh-only sniper fleet I'd say amarr above all.
Amarr > Caldari > Gallente > Minmatar ----------
Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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Lymitz
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Posted - 2009.06.22 11:25:00 -
[42]
Apoc/Rokh are considered superior sniper boats for 0.0 sniper warfare.
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Zackalwe
Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.22 14:26:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Zackalwe on 22/06/2009 14:35:19 nvm |
M Blanc
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Posted - 2009.06.22 16:27:00 -
[44]
What you want from a sniping BS is an optimal of ~200km, the ability to lock at those ranges, and as much DPS/tracking as possible; everything else is irrelevant.
Using Mr. All Lvl. 5, with all fits having three damage mods and one locus rig, A 7-tach apoc with Aurora has 200 km optimal/25 km falloff, 351 DPS, 0.005 rad/s tracking, 205 km lock range An 8x425mm Rokh loading Spike has 224 km optimal/30 km falloff, 321 DPS, 0.00493 rad/s tracking, 227 km lock range An 8x425mm Rokh loading CN Tungsten has 213 km optimal/30 km falloff, 277 DPS, 0.01202 rad/s tracking, 227 km lock range A 7x425mm Mega loading Spike has 191 km optimal/30 km falloff, 351 DPS, 0.0049 rad/s tracking, 221 km lock range Minmatar don't really have a good 200km optimal sniping BS.
So, the order is pretty much Apoc > Rokh >>>> Mega; the same situation obtains with sniper HACs except that the Muninn is a viable ship, so the order is Zealot > Eagle/Muninn >> Deimos; again, the Gallente ship's optimal is less than you'd want.
If you want to snipe with frigates/T1 cruisers/battlecruisers, Caldari are pretty much the only game in town, but it's not a particularly good or useful game.
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Velin Shade
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Posted - 2009.06.22 17:09:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Tom Gunn
Ishtars are not snipers - but i assume thats a mistake ;)
With sentries, Ishtars can make great snipers.
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deathstriker seven
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Posted - 2009.06.22 17:57:00 -
[46]
Apoc.
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SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.06.22 18:19:00 -
[47]
Originally by: M Blanc What you want from a sniping BS is an optimal of ~200km, the ability to lock at those ranges, and as much DPS/tracking as possible; everything else is irrelevant.
If you want to snipe with frigates/T1 cruisers/battlecruisers, Caldari are pretty much the only game in town, but it's not a particularly good or useful game.
Sniping Battleships HAVE to tank a DDD.
Also I have found having a Retribution that shoots out to 46km to be very useful for frig gangs. Sure a Coercer can shoot out to 36, but when your camping a gate if your max range is thirty six you can only sit 20 off as people coming through might be on the other side and coercers don't tend to last more then 3 volleys from a BC. |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.22 18:26:00 -
[48]
Originally by: M Blanc 7-tach apoc
This is right about where you lost all credibility. |
SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.06.22 18:28:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Originally by: M Blanc 7-tach apoc
This is right about where you lost all credibility.
Um Dav, the Seven Tach Apoc is really the best way to outfit a apoc for Sniping, You simply have to make FAR to many compromises to fit 8 Tach II's on one. --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
deathstriker seven
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Posted - 2009.06.22 18:30:00 -
[50]
Originally by: SuiJuris [
Sniping Battleships HAVE to tank a DDD.
Solo titans were once a regular event but now they are virtually non-existant as more and more are made and entire fleets/gang of them are the norm.
The result of this is the fact that DDD proofing sniper BS is pointless.
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SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.06.22 18:32:00 -
[51]
Originally by: deathstriker seven
Originally by: SuiJuris [
Sniping Battleships HAVE to tank a DDD.
Solo titans were once a regular event but now they are virtually non-existant as more and more are made and entire fleets/gang of them are the norm.
The result of this is the fact that DDD proofing sniper BS is pointless.
I stand corrected. --- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.22 18:34:00 -
[52]
Originally by: SuiJuris
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
Originally by: M Blanc 7-tach apoc
This is right about where you lost all credibility.
Um Dav, the Seven Tach Apoc is really the best way to outfit a apoc for Sniping, You simply have to make FAR to many compromises to fit 8 Tach II's on one.
I could spend a lot of time typing a rebuttal but this pretty much covers it: Originally by: deathstriker seven
Originally by: SuiJuris Sniping Battleships HAVE to tank a DDD.
Solo titans were once a regular event but now they are virtually non-existant as more and more are made and entire fleets/gang of them are the norm.
The result of this is the fact that DDD proofing sniper BS is pointless.
7-tach apocs were kind-of viable a looooong time ago. Now they aren't because you aren't getting an apoc to tank double dd anyway so there's no point.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.06.22 18:53:00 -
[53]
Edited by: SuiJuris on 22/06/2009 18:53:30 BECAUSE OF TITAN!!!
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M Blanc
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Posted - 2009.06.22 18:53:00 -
[54]
You may have missed my point, namely that apoc > rokh >> mega. The whole 7 vs. 8 tach argument is kind of immaterial to that; if a 7-tach apoc is sufficient to outdo all other sniping BS, the existence of 8-tach apocs is just a cherry on top of the original point. |
deathstriker seven
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Posted - 2009.06.22 18:55:00 -
[55]
Edited by: deathstriker seven on 22/06/2009 18:56:08
Originally by: Davinel Lulinvega
7-tach apocs were kind-of viable a looooong time ago. Now they aren't because you aren't getting an apoc to tank double dd anyway so there's no point.
So you may as well fit 8 tach's and do 401 cap stable turret DPS (without the mwd running and max skills) at 212-249km depending on what fit you choose. |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.22 19:03:00 -
[56]
Originally by: M Blanc You may have missed my point, namely that apoc > rokh >> mega. The whole 7 vs. 8 tach argument is kind of immaterial to that; if a 7-tach apoc is sufficient to outdo all other sniping BS, the existence of 8-tach apocs is just a cherry on top of the original point.
Sad but true. Nerf amarr . |
achoura
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Posted - 2009.06.22 19:07:00 -
[57]
Edited by: achoura on 22/06/2009 19:09:51
Originally by: M Blanc
Using Mr. All Lvl. 5, with all fits having three damage mods and one locus rig, A 7-tach apoc with Aurora has 200 km optimal/25 km falloff, 351 DPS, 0.005 rad/s tracking, 205 km lock range An 8x425mm Rokh loading Spike has 224 km optimal/30 km falloff, 321 DPS, 0.00493 rad/s tracking, 227 km lock range An 8x425mm Rokh loading CN Tungsten has 213 km optimal/30 km falloff, 277 DPS, 0.01202 rad/s tracking, 227 km lock range A 7x425mm Mega loading Spike has 191 km optimal/30 km falloff, 351 DPS, 0.0049 rad/s tracking, 221 km lock range Minmatar don't really have a good 200km optimal sniping BS.
Thing is the perception of damage bonus > range bonus, therefore apoc > rokh, is horribly ignorant.
Once you pass 20 in a gang individual dps degrades with each additional member. It becomes less and less important which is why rr gangs with 20 plus fit 2 rr and 6 guns rather than 7 guns and 1 rr. That additional dps doesn't matter when there's 30 of them shooting a single target. Likewise when you has 150 bs shooting a single target is doesn't matter whether you do 250 dps or 500 because with over 100 ppl shooting you you die, simple.
All that matters in fully sized fleets is you're effective combat range, your ability to hit the target i.e. tracking (which the apoc sucks at) and the speed at which you can change targets because you're lucky if you get 2 vollies off before they explode.
Edit: actually go check your math, my apoc with a single locus rig has 188 optimal |
deathstriker seven
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Posted - 2009.06.22 19:31:00 -
[58]
Originally by: achoura
All that matters in fully sized fleets is you're effective combat range
REALLY?.
Apoc can do its 401 turret dps at 249km. Rokh can do its 321 turret dps at 249km. Mega can do its 351 turret dps at 190ish km.
Best = apoc.
Originally by: achoura your ability to hit the target i.e. tracking (which the apoc sucks at)
COMPARED TO WHAT?.
Apoc tracking with T2 ammo = 0.00435. Mega tracking with T2 ammo = 0.00413. Rokh tracking with T2 ammo = 0.00301.
So best = apoc.
Originally by: achoura and the speed at which you can change targets because you're lucky if you get 2 vollies off before they explode.
You mean alpha?.
Apoc alpha = 2763 (max skills T2 ammo and 3 x dmg mods). Mega alpha = 1847 (max skills T2 ammo and 3 x dmg mods). Rokh alpha = 1688 (max skills T2 ammo and 3 x dmg mods).
BEST = APOC.
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deathstriker seven
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Posted - 2009.06.22 19:36:00 -
[59]
PS:
Originally by: achoura
Thing is the perception of damage bonus > range bonus, therefore apoc > rokh, is horribly ignorant.
Considering that both the apoc and the rokh only have range bonuses and neither have dmg bonuses you should really be more careful before you throw around the word ignorant.
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SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.06.22 19:40:00 -
[60]
I must be doing something wrong here with my 8 Tach fit, it doesn't want to all squeeze on there.
[Apocalypse, 8 Tachs Apoc] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II [empty low slot]
100MN MicroWarpdrive I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
Already 2 CPU over with a empy slot still.
[Apocalypse, 7 Tachs] Reactor Control Unit II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II
100MN MicroWarpdrive I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L [empty high slot]
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
6 less dps then the 2 heatsink 8 tach setup, You can fit that DCUII or a Signal Amp.
--- It's like my mom always said... "I knew I should of drowned that one." |
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.22 19:50:00 -
[61]
Your problem is trying to put on a heavy cap booster. It's completely unnecessary.
[Apocalypse, sniper] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster II
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
You can use named sebos or a 1% cpu implant.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.06.22 19:50:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 22/06/2009 19:52:24 The trick to the Rokh, as o so many of you miss compleatly, is that it is perfectly vialbe without T2 Spike for its sniping, thus more effective dps compared to toher ships.
Aslo, Gallente snipers do indeed suck, the make good gank beats, but we all knew that already.
EDIT: The rokh can also snipe well and fit a buffer tank.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.22 19:53:00 -
[63]
Originally by: deathstriker seven
Originally by: achoura your ability to hit the target i.e. tracking (which the apoc sucks at)
COMPARED TO WHAT?.
Apoc tracking with T2 ammo = 0.00435. Mega tracking with T2 ammo = 0.00413. Rokh tracking with T2 ammo = 0.00301.
So best = apoc.
I think he meant when you compare aurora in an apoc to faction in a rokh since it can throw lead to around 200km. The rest of your comparison is spot-on though.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
deathstriker seven
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Posted - 2009.06.22 19:53:00 -
[64]
Edited by: deathstriker seven on 22/06/2009 19:55:25 Edited by: deathstriker seven on 22/06/2009 19:54:20
Try this.
HIGHS 8 x tach t2.
MIDS 1 x tracking comp t2. 2 x f-90 sensor boosters. 1 x best named 100mn mwd.
LOWS
2 x best named cpr. 2 x RCU t2. 3 x heat sink t2.
RIGS
2 x energy locus rigs t1. 1 x lock range rigs t1.
401 cap stable dps (without the mwd running obviously), 231km optimal +25km falloff, 249km lock range, 0.00435 tracking with Aurora, 75m3 drone bay for ecm drones ect.
Needs a 1% pg implant but meh they are only a few iskies.
Obviously you can alter the fit a little if you wish as with 1 less locus rig you still get 401 turret dps at 212km optimal + 25km falloff..
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.22 19:55:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Lindsay Logan Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 22/06/2009 19:52:24 The trick to the Rokh, as o so many of you miss compleatly, is that it is perfectly vialbe without T2 Spike for its sniping, thus more effective dps compared to toher ships.
Aslo, Gallente snipers do indeed suck, the make good gank beats, but we all knew that already.
EDIT: The rokh can also snipe well and fit a buffer tank.
These are both true, but neither of them matter much. Even with higher damage ammo it still does less dps than an apoc, and as previously stated when alliances are throwing double or higher dds around like nothing your tank doesn't mean ****.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
deathstriker seven
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Posted - 2009.06.22 20:04:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Lindsay Logan
The trick to the Rokh, as o so many of you miss compleatly, is that it is perfectly vialbe without T2 Spike for its sniping, thus more effective dps compared to toher ships.
Apoc with faction radio crystals = 289dps at 205km optimal+25km falloff, tracking = 0.01704, alpha = 1986.
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Graalum
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.22 20:10:00 -
[67]
amarr >= caldari > gallentee >>>> minmatar |
Zxenis
Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.06.22 21:01:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Velin Shade
Originally by: Tom Gunn
Ishtars are not snipers - but i assume thats a mistake ;)
With sentries, Ishtars can make great snipers.
not if your actively aligned while shooting |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.22 21:05:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Zxenis
Originally by: Velin Shade
Originally by: Tom Gunn
Ishtars are not snipers - but i assume thats a mistake ;)
With sentries, Ishtars can make great snipers.
not if your actively aligned while shooting
It takes a lot more work, bookmarking, and a willingness to abandon t2 sentries at the drop of a hat, but it can be done . |
SuiJuris
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Posted - 2009.06.22 21:22:00 -
[70]
Hmmm, looks like we answered the **** outa the OP's question. GJ us. |
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AstroPhobic
Astrophobics Anonymous
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Posted - 2009.06.22 22:34:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Gneeznow in before astrophopic comes along to whine about minmatar as is seemingly his life's work)
I don't really like sniping, so I just lurk sniper topics at most. Everyone knows artillery needs work (muninn slot layout too), so there's nothing to troll here.
I mean comment on.
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