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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
Ecky X
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.04.29 20:49:00 -
[91]
Can anyone think of a reason why +1 midslot and +200ish cpu would not fix the Nag? Essentially it gives it two slots, one mid and one low (liberated from a co-processor), and I feel the Nag is only deficient in its slot layout, or lack thereof.
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Anahid Brutus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.29 20:50:00 -
[92]
Plz rename thread to: Official confirmation that nags will always be ****, just train into a revelation.
uhh, i thought i posted that reply before but it isnt showing when i refresh, anyone else having problems with the forums?!?
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Professor Dumbledore
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.29 20:52:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Anahid Brutus Plz rename thread to: Official confirmation that nags will always be ****, just train into a revelation.
uhh, i thought i posted that reply before but it isnt showing when i refresh, anyone else having problems with the forums?!?
Looks like they are deleting things they dont like again lotka.org
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Cingach
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.29 20:52:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Stretchmeat Crotchquake
Originally by: Noodly Appendage An increase in citadel torpedo velocity should be accompanied by a nerf in the torps hitpoints so as to not make them invincible to smartbombs.
I agree. Furthermore, I think it is completely unfair that railguns and lasers are not affected by smartbombs!
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Sertan Deras
Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.29 20:53:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Noodly Appendage
Originally by: Sertan Deras Edited by: Sertan Deras on 29/04/2009 20:23:18
Originally by: Noodly Appendage !!!!!
An increase in citadel torpedo velocity should be accompanied by a nerf in the torps hitpoints so as to not make them invincible to smartbombs.
!!!!!
Yes, indeed, lets go back to the days when Phoenixes couldn't hurt a Carrier because the Carrier was mounting enough smartbombs to nullify it's torps. It's not like Phoenixes don't have enough disadvantages in capital combat as it is.
No, seriously, that's stupid. Citadel torpedoes should simply be immune to smart bombs. It's beyond dumb that they can be hit by smartbombs as it is.
You clearly missed the issue. They were buffed awhile ago because 1 smartbomb could kill them. Nowadays you need 4-5 smartbombs which is much more 'balanced', and an increase in velocity should be accompanied by a nerf in hp so that (on average) 4-5 smartbombs would have the same effect.
I'm not missing the issue. The issue is that the fact that torps are even effected by smartbombs is dumb. Five or six smartbombs in a carrier blob is not very hard to come by. Especially if all the carriers are using 7.5km faction smartbombs (most do). So you get this gigantic web of smartbomb coverage to the point that Phoenixes can do no damage, and Naglfar's do half. It's dumb, it's not a good idea.
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Pallidum Treponema
Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.04.29 20:53:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Yorda
I'm actually agreeing with a BCDI and -A- member (aside from the fact they should make it 2 guns and 100% damage bonus so they don't have to redo the model), this should tell you something ccp (IE wake the **** up).
Agreeing with a goon.
I'd be more than happy with a 2 gun variant actually, even if it means slightly less DPS, as long as I don't have to deal with mixed weapon systems.
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Anahid Brutus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.29 20:54:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Anahid Brutus on 29/04/2009 20:56:23 Ok going to use the p4 top spot for this:
Plz rename thread to: Official confirmation that nags will always be ****, just train into a revelation.
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Anahid Brutus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.29 20:56:00 -
[98]
no but really, split weapon system doesnt work on any other ship in this little game we call eve online, why should it work on the nag
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Professor Dumbledore
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.29 20:58:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Anahid Brutus no but really, split weapon system doesnt work on any other ship in this little game we call eve online, why should it work on the nag
This would require thinking and change 2 things CCP is not very good at dealing with.
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musgrattio
H A V O C
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Posted - 2009.04.29 20:58:00 -
[100]
Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, you NEED to add a 3rd turret slot. If the ship were capable of fitting 3 turrets, 1 missile, 1 siege, it would turn into an awesome ship. It's the fact that you force split weapons on it that makes it useless.
Please, please, 3rd turret. It would require some graphics work, but it would not be that big of a deal. Small price to pay for fixing a ship that's been broken for years. And don't let yourself say that you'd rather make new content than fix your game, puh leeze.
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Linas IV
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Posted - 2009.04.29 20:59:00 -
[101]
Well I hope my math is wrong, but the Nag wont be able to fit 2 Arti + 2 Citadel + Siege + Dualrep anymore after this "Fix"
Are you serious to "force" us to Shieldtank with 5 meds?
Maybe you should reconsider this.
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Gloria Lewis
Caldari lolpatrol B-D
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:03:00 -
[102]
In addition to the buffs (and powergrid nerf lol) from OP, give the ship: - 3 turret slots (add a new turret hardpoint to the model) - 3 missile slots
Remove a high and a lowslot and give it 2 more mids; - 4 highs - 7 mids - 5 lows
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Clueless Alt
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:05:00 -
[103]
I'm disapointed.
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Spacebar
Minmatar Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:08:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Pallidum Treponema The problems with the Nag is several.
1. It has too little CPU to be an effective shield tanker. If you want to shield tank a Nag, you need a co-proc. 2. It has too few midslots to be an effective shield tanker. With a sensor booster being essential on any fleet dread, this leaves it with a four slot tank. This is not sufficient to bring it in-line with other dreads in terms of EHP. 3. It cannot armor tank without sacrificing its DPS. A four-slot armor tank plus damage control leaves it with a single slot for a damage mod. 4. It has a mixed main armament, meaning that to match other dreads, it needs to fit twice as many damage mods. 5. It's main armament is... pathetic.
To emphasise point 5, let me take current numbers:
An ArtyNag with max skills does 1149 DPS from its artillery before counting damage mods. This includes a 37.5% RoF bonus, which equals an increase of 57.5% of total DPS (1/0.625 = ~1.575) A BeamNag using Giga Beam lasers does 1235 DPS before counting damage mods. This is WITHOUT any bonuses from the ship. Yes, that's right. Beams on a Naglfar do more DPS without bonuses than arties do WITH bonuses.
The proposed changes to bonuses and guns does increase Arty DPS by approximately 22%. This brings us to 1405 DPS with shipbonuses at maximum, finally making the ArtyNag a better option than the BeamNag. HOWEVER, if the Nag's pilot skills are only at lv4 for minmatar dreadnought (this is the skill level most pilots play at), the ArtyNag drops to 1311 DPS for its artillery. It's still more than the unbonused beams, but only 6% more.
What we still have is a dreadnought that has to choose between having comparable DPS but less tank (instant primary), or a comparable tank but less DPS than any other dread.
We still have a dread that with it's 10% DPS per level bonus for its signature weapon, still only outdamages an UNBONUSED giga beam laser by 6% for most pilots.
Yes, the proposed changes do increase the Naglfar's DPS but it still totally misses the main issue. It's a poorly designed shup from the start. Mixed weapon systems don't work. The fitting options don't work. You're stuck with a ship that forces you to pick the lesser evil rather than build a setup that is actually good.
Now, what I propose is the following:
Drop the Naglfar's highslots to four rather than five and give it 3 turret slots and 3 missile slots. This, coupled with suitable bonuses, allows it to EITHER be a missile boat OR a gunboat.
Fix arties to be comparable to other race's guns. I don't want to need 60% of damage bonuses to match a vanilla giga laser.
These two changes are all that are needed. I'm sure a lot of Naggy pilots will agree. I'd be more than happy to run a four-slot shieldtank if that means I can drop three gyros or BCUs in my lows for a sweet DPS, rather than having to waste five lowslots worth of damage mods just to keep up.
Bottom line is: The naglfar is poorly designed from the start. Swapping bonuses and grid/cpu around won't help it. Fix its weapon systems. That's the big issue with the ship.
^^this. Sums up my feelings exactly.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:09:00 -
[105]
So, i'm still not seeing what the payoff for gimped tank and split weapons systems is even with the proposed changes.
Could someone with a better grasp of the maths behind it please break it down comparatively? Secretly MirrorGod. Apparently
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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Linas IV
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:11:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Linas IV on 29/04/2009 21:12:11 And we basicly get a ~3% DPS increase on Arties (+13% Stats -10% ship bonus), a 10% Damage loss on ACs (-10% ship bonus), and a 20% DPS Increase on Citadels (+20% ship Bonus).
Thats an overall about +5% DPS increase on Shortrange +11% on Longrange DPS, and need to focus more on Citadels
It's nice but I dont really think thats enough to compensate the missing Slot to other Dreads and the the still inferior Tank.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:11:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Spacebar
Now, what I propose is the following:
Drop the Naglfar's highslots to four rather than five and give it 3 turret slots and 3 missile slots. This, coupled with suitable bonuses, allows it to EITHER be a missile boat OR a gunboat.
Fix arties to be comparable to other race's guns. I don't want to need 60% of damage bonuses to match a vanilla giga laser.
These two changes are all that are needed. I'm sure a lot of Naggy pilots will agree. I'd be more than happy to run a four-slot shieldtank if that means I can drop three gyros or BCUs in my lows for a sweet DPS, rather than having to waste five lowslots worth of damage mods just to keep up.
Looks good.
Chronnie comment? Secretly MirrorGod. Apparently
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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Anahid Brutus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:12:00 -
[108]
Originally by: RedSplat So, i'm still not seeing what the payoff for gimped tank and split weapons systems is even with the proposed changes.
Could someone with a better grasp of the maths behind it please break it down comparatively?
Train for revelation
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Lumy
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:15:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Lumy on 29/04/2009 21:16:19
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Lumy Imho idea 7.5% ROF and 5% DMG bonus to capital projectiles is good one. This will put Naglrofl to 4 effective turrets at level 5. Remove one high sloth with missile bay and move it low slot, or move it with another low to mid. Getting a) 4 highs (2 hardpoint + 1 bay), 5 mids, 7 lows b) 4 highs (2 hardpoint + 1 bay), 7 mids, 5 lows
PS: what would Caldari pilots say about 4 highs (3 bays + 1 hardpoint), 8 mids, 4 lows configuration? Assuming b) would be put to life, Phoenix wouldn't have same distribution of mids/lows.
Ok, no more theorycrafting from me since I don't actually fly a dread.
Those bonuses ALOGNSIDE a citatel launcher would be overpowered. With those bonuses it shoudl have only 2 turrets.. nothing more....
Actually it wouldn't. After doing some math I stand corrected, it would still suck:
Revelation (pulses): 3 / 0.75(rof bonus) * 96 (Multifrequency XL) * 6 / 13.5 = 170.66 Moros (railguns): 3 * 1.25 (dmg bonus) * 96 (Antimater XL) * 5.5 / 14.35 = 137.98 (+insane damage from drones) Naglfar (old arties): 2 / 0.625 (rof bonus) * 1.25 (dmg bonus) * 88 (EMP XL) * 8.4 / 28.69 = 103.06 Naglfar (new arties): 2 / 0.625 (rof bonus) * 1.25 (dmg bonus) * 88 (EMP XL) * 12.075 / 35.438 = 119.93 (+ single unbonused launcher)
Maybe 7.5% rof and 7.5% dmg would work: Naglfar (new arties): 2 / 0.625 (rof bonus) * 1.3752 (dmg bonus) * 88 (EMP XL) * 12.075 / 35.438 = 131.93 (+ single unbonused launcher)
Note: I'm assuming all relevant skills are on the same level, so I'm not including them to calculation.
Joomla! in EVE - IGB compatible CMS. |
Tarminic
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:17:00 -
[110]
My Suggestion, Very Simple: 1. Two turrets, two launchers 2. Remove 1 high, Remove 1 low 3. Add 2 mids 4. Two projectile bonuses ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
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Anahid Brutus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:17:00 -
[111]
hey someone post how long it takes to get max-skilled with a nag compared to a rev, that always gets laughs
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Linas IV
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:20:00 -
[112]
I'm totaly for the 2 Turret, 1 Launcher + Dual Projectile Bonus + 1 Slot Alternative!
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Gloria Lewis
Caldari lolpatrol B-D
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:25:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Tarminic My Suggestion, Very Simple: 1. Two turrets, two launchers 2. Remove 1 high, Remove 1 low 3. Add 2 mids 4. Two projectile bonuses
My suggestion of 3 turrets, 3 launchers is better; not forcing the pilot to dual train
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:33:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Gloria Lewis
Originally by: Tarminic My Suggestion, Very Simple: 1. Two turrets, two launchers 2. Remove 1 high, Remove 1 low 3. Add 2 mids 4. Two projectile bonuses
My suggestion of 3 turrets, 3 launchers is better; not forcing the pilot to dual train
Two turrets. base 50% ship bonus. 5% damage 7.5% ROF bonus/level. Minus one high, plus one low. Adjust powergrid and CPU to apply.
4/5/7, Leaves one high for a utility slot (Surprisingly useful), Gives enough lowslots for a real tank + damage mods. Hell you could even remove a mid. No modifications to the model. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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ChalSto
LOCKDOWN. Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:36:00 -
[115]
NAGLFAR?? You seriously look at first at the NAGLFAR??
God damit, fix blasters allready and not the stupid capital crap...
Originally by: Agmar ----------------------------------------------- "The North is so ghey that even the NPCs fly ravens." |
sahtila
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:41:00 -
[116]
Naglfar has two big problems: a) Not enough DPS b) Not enough EHP
And those changes do nothing to cure that. Trying to balance ships is pretty difficult when not understanding problem... just saying.
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Gloria Lewis
Caldari lolpatrol B-D
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:45:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Gloria Lewis
Originally by: Tarminic My Suggestion, Very Simple: 1. Two turrets, two launchers 2. Remove 1 high, Remove 1 low 3. Add 2 mids 4. Two projectile bonuses
My suggestion of 3 turrets, 3 launchers is better; not forcing the pilot to dual train
Two turrets. base 50% ship bonus. 5% damage 7.5% ROF bonus/level. Minus one high, plus one low. Adjust powergrid and CPU to apply.
4/5/7, Leaves one high for a utility slot (Surprisingly useful), Gives enough lowslots for a real tank + damage mods. Hell you could even remove a mid. No modifications to the model.
I like your thinking; less guns and more bonus would also mean less ammo usage and less reloads (making it a baby step closer to a revelation)
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Min Qa
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:47:00 -
[118]
The core problem with the Nag is that it losses a low + mid slot for a high. Unless the trade off is crazy DPS for that extra high, it will always be behind the other dreads. As it stands, it does sub par DPS, must train longer, and has the crappiest tank.
The new changes don't do anything to fix this. * You still dont have the CPU to shield tank * You are still short a low/mid slot compared to the other dreads. Capless weapons dont make up for this when you have less cap to begin with. * You still need very very good support skills in 2 weapon systems. Actually now you need missile skills more than gunnery. * alpha is meaningless in any fight where a dread would be used.
I agree with the gunnery focused design (Rupture, hurricane, tempest, etc). Make Nag pilots need gunnery and missile skills, but focus on gunnery and allow them to get good usage out of damage mods: + 1 mid + enough cpu to shield tank without a co-proc + projectile dmg bonus -1 high slot -1 launcher slot - cap launcher bonus
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Mad Ilya
eXceed Inc. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:49:00 -
[119]
Sorry but versatility still equals crap.
Figure out a preferred tank/fitting for it first and adjust the slots. Then worry about getting the DPS in par with other dreads by bonuses and turret stats.
I'm thinking something like: shield tank, move 1-2 lows to mids, give even more extensive ship bonuses due to limited low slots (less damage mods). 2 turret bonuses to make artillerys stand out. Still ability to fit launchers but without bonuses - or use them as utility slots with a bit less dps than other dreads.
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Tarminic
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.04.29 21:50:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Gloria Lewis
Originally by: Tarminic My Suggestion, Very Simple: 1. Two turrets, two launchers 2. Remove 1 high, Remove 1 low 3. Add 2 mids 4. Two projectile bonuses
My suggestion of 3 turrets, 3 launchers is better; not forcing the pilot to dual train
Except that CCP won't redo the model, so 3 turrets is out of the question. I don't see why you people think otherwise. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
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