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Carlisle Veritas
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Posted - 2009.03.19 02:16:00 -
[1]
Hi All.
I did a few searches for etiquette in the forums and could not find anything on this topic, so here goes.
I'm interested in people's opinion on miner etiquette. For example, if you arrive at belt and there's someone there, should you a) find another belt, or b) go about your normal mining business. People have been picked out in local, and on occasion I've been pm'd for "intruding" on another miner's belt. Personally I don't particularly care, but some people get annoyed if you don't move.
Example 2. You're mining in a belt with other miners and they start mining the roid that you're mining. My personal opinion: It's not yours until in your cargo hold (and even then... ). Some people get upset, others don't care.
These situations can sometimes make for amusing local smack talk, but other times are just annoying.
Similar things can go for wrecks of rats you kill while mining. Some people ask, others just go for it.
So, what are your thoughts? Would you leave a belt if someone who's already there asked you to? Do you move on anyway if you find someone already in a belt? Would you pick someone out for mining "your" ore? Does etiquette have a place in Eve at all?
Cheers.
Carl.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.03.19 02:29:00 -
[2]
The one who yields first gets the ore.
Let them cry. If their whines get on your nerves, give them a reason to whine and suicide gank their precious Exhumers. If they still not get that EVE is essentially a PvP focused game, tell them that WoW will be much more entertaining for them.
There is no reason to pity the fools. -------- Ideas for: Mining
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Gin G
Halls Of Valhalla
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Posted - 2009.03.19 02:50:00 -
[3]
I find there tears a nice change from the drone of my lazors so let them flow into a sea
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.03.19 04:47:00 -
[4]
My brother would canflip everybody he could, kill those who riposte, then come back and mine in peace. I don't mine
_ Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.03.19 05:37:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Akita T My brother would canflip everybody he could, kill those who riposte, then come back and mine in peace. I don't mine
the last person to canflip me found himself webed, scramed, and in front of of an uncloaking BC and about 15 drones.
his partner found himself in the same spot but with 2 BC warping in on him when was down to armor.
between them we got some nice T2 mods and some faction ammo for the price of 3 drones.
note to bad guys, when your partner is in a frigate, and you as backup are in a Thrasher, and your partner says Oh **** on vent, and when you get there you see that your partner is the only wreck there with no concord, DONT TRY TO LOOT THE WRECK UNTILL YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE HECK HAPPEND!
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.*
Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence. |
Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
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Posted - 2009.03.19 05:53:00 -
[6]
In your first example, the only time I'll move on to a new belt is if
a) its mostly gone b) theres an obvious mining op going on
As for being warned off, tell them to get stuffed, What exactly can/will they do? In highsec if they attack you concord comes along and pops them.
As for them getting annoyed even better, just post the chat logs in C&P, especially if you can get them riled up
In your second example, ordinarilly I wont mine another persons roid, as it takes a lot of micro management of the strips, however if in the case of example one, I'll go out of my way to mine the same roids just to see them whine more.
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Argendta
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Posted - 2009.03.19 06:05:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Argendta on 19/03/2009 06:06:47 There is no etiquette, in mining or anything else. We are all bastards here, and it's ship eats ship world.
We will mine your roids, salvage your wrecks, steal your loot, flip your cans, suicide your industrials, eat your sushi and r-r-a-p-e your girlfriend while burning your house AND dancing on the ashes, all the time screaming "I want more TEARS!!!"
Seriously, any rules are reserved for your own corp/alliance, and you learn of them beforehand; outside of it, if you feel confrontational, feel free to bite anyone's head of and... err... take a **it there.
Seriously, that filter is annoying. I haven't said anything obscene or rude here. Why censure half my post?
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Yendor Widdershins
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.03.19 06:34:00 -
[8]
Personally, I wouldn't mine the same roid someone else is. If it's just one ship I'll definatetly mine the same belt. If it's an obvious organized expedition, then depending on my mood and how desperate I am for ore I'll likely try another belt.
If someone PM's you an obnoxious message, the correct response is somewhere between "you and whose army?" and "Hmmm, you're right, it's much easier to just take yours"
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Kyra Felann
Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2009.03.19 07:18:00 -
[9]
I'd say mining the same asteroid as someone else is rude, since it can mess up their time calculations (when to stop the laser, etc), but mining in the same belt? That's fine. If you're not concerned with being rude, mine whatever you feel like.
Hell, people getting upset about people mining in "their" belt might as well get mad about people salving "their" wrecks...oh, wait.
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Zaldox
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Posted - 2009.03.19 07:30:00 -
[10]
If i warp too a belt where someone else is mining,i usually leave for another belt..Unless its a lonely miner and its a big belt..Ill just move too the other side of it.... If someone else come when i mine a belt,i dont care as long as he/she is not mining the same roid as me...I would suggest he/she move too the other side of the belt.... But since im mining in 0.0 and its only my alliance members thats aloved too mine there,i really dont have too many problems..
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Scott Ryder
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.03.19 07:32:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Scott Ryder on 19/03/2009 07:33:24
Originally by: Yendor Widdershins Personally, I wouldn't mine the same roid someone else is. If it's just one ship I'll definatetly mine the same belt. If it's an obvious organized expedition, then depending on my mood and how desperate I am for ore I'll likely try another belt.
If someone PM's you an obnoxious message, the correct response is somewhere between "you and whose army?" and "Hmmm, you're right, it's much easier to just take yours"
Lovely seeing someone without a portrait saying that.
Well last time I had that response when I told them to go away (I used to mine once upon a time) I wardecced his corp with my alt corp. Gave them a good Grief (kinda funny seeing what 1 curse 1 eos anda absolution can do vs a mining corp) and well the war ended. Couple months later he warped into the same belt I was, guess what he did? Warped away.
Or you can just keep a curse alt and a cs alt in the same corp as you closeby and tank youre hulk well (400 dps tank). Then flip the can he is mining in and wait for him to bring the battleship. Then bring the curse and the cs.
Or take a alt in a speedfitted ship and bump him the **** away from youre roids. And i mean 70 km away is good. Repeat til he agresses or gets the idea.
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Kleb Siella
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.03.19 08:16:00 -
[12]
It's not etiquette, it's a stupidity check. Once you get to a certain amount of yield there's little point occupying the same belt as another decent looking miner. Of course stupid people will do exactly that but there's no point caring about it. You can either finish off or leave them to the scraps and move to the next belt you earmarked. |
Enish Rangar
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Posted - 2009.03.19 08:20:00 -
[13]
This is dumb.
The only etiquette involved in belt mining is this... ask me to leave "your belt"... i'll beat you with "my belt". As others have said there is plenty of ore to go around and if you have a "crappy" attitude I'll leave you to your pod to think about your words towards me... or not in a pod at all.
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Snow Banshee
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.19 08:37:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Snow Banshee on 19/03/2009 08:37:37 im quite surprised by soem answers here. Its obvious that nobody posses the belt but we are talking about netiquette not laws or property.
imho:
* if there are some empty belt in same system i find there's no reason to steal roids each others. * if there are not empty belts, then go to same belt but start mining quite far, from the other guys ( so he will mine first minerals near him, and you those near you ) * if in the same belt there is a mining op with several professionals they will most likelly deplete the whole belt quite fast , so if possible i would chose another belt ( its not just a favour to them.. its also at your advangage find a belt ther you can mine in peace) * if the other miners are just noob in frigs... just avoid to mine the same roid. * hail other miners and ask if "roids are hoot today". :-)
Obviusly thore are just my personal opinion and are not to be considered laws.. just some basic netiquette rules. You can follow them or not , as the same way you can ne nice or a pure bas<beeeep!>rd, in eve you can be whatever you prefer.
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TempSniper
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.19 08:51:00 -
[15]
I agree with if someone is in a belt then move along. Theres plenty of belts and systems with ore to mine.
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Enish Rangar
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Posted - 2009.03.19 08:53:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Enish Rangar on 19/03/2009 08:54:41
Originally by: Snow Banshee Edited by: Snow Banshee on 19/03/2009 08:37:37 im quite surprised by soem answers here. Its obvious that nobody posses the belt but we are talking about netiquette not laws or property.
imho:
* if there are some empty belt in same system i find there's no reason to steal roids each others. * if there are not empty belts, then go to same belt but start mining quite far, from the other guys ( so he will mine first minerals near him, and you those near you ) * if in the same belt there is a mining op with several professionals they will most likelly deplete the whole belt quite fast , so if possible i would chose another belt ( its not just a favour to them.. its also at your advangage find a belt ther you can mine in peace) * if the other miners are just noob in frigs... just avoid to mine the same roid. * hail other miners and ask if "roids are hoot today". :-)
Obviusly thore are just my personal opinion and are not to be considered laws.. just some basic netiquette rules. You can follow them or not , as the same way you can ne nice or a pure bas<beeeep!>rd, in eve you can be whatever you prefer.
Netiquette? Are you mad? Netiquette does not apply in an MMORPG... just the rules of the game apply (which as all EVE players know, you make your own rules). Quit whining and trying to impose "netiquette rules" (<- NOT RULES) on others when they just don't apply.
P.S. I guess I should state that I'm okay with moving along to an unmanned belt... but I'm against someone trying to tell others the "proper way" in a game of this nature.
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Padrfe
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Posted - 2009.03.19 09:39:00 -
[17]
If I am mining a belt, alone ore in a fleet and another comes along to mine, I will trundle on over near ti them and mine the roid right out from under them. When they move to another roid, I move right along with them and mine that one out from under them. They get ****ed and leave after a few times. To that end if I enter a belt and there is even one person in there i will move along and find another. If it is the only belt, then refer to above and the undercutting shall begin. This tactic also works well to find macro miners and AFK miners as they will not lock and mine another rock with any type of speed. If it found to be an macro miner, then an approaching ship can keep them doing the warp dance for a few hours.
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Enish Rangar
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Posted - 2009.03.19 09:43:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Padrfe If I am mining a belt, alone ore in a fleet and another comes along to mine, I will trundle on over near ti them and mine the roid right out from under them. When they move to another roid, I move right along with them and mine that one out from under them. They get ****ed and leave after a few times. To that end if I enter a belt and there is even one person in there i will move along and find another. If it is the only belt, then refer to above and the undercutting shall begin. This tactic also works well to find macro miners and AFK miners as they will not lock and mine another rock with any type of speed. If it found to be an macro miner, then an approaching ship can keep them doing the warp dance for a few hours.
The last part is funny because if i'm feeling pretty piraty (ARGGGH) I'll check local belts for afk macro miners... do the very same... wait to see if the is a person there or not... if not can flip em! Wooo.
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Enish Rangar
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Posted - 2009.03.19 09:55:00 -
[19]
One more thing to equate this to in real life.
Say you like to fish... and you go to a lake out of the 4-9 lakes in your area... if someone or a few people are there mining... errr i mean fishing in "your lake" are you gonna pack up and drive to some other lake miles away? NO.
However if there are like 60 people at your lake all fishing... you might think about moving on.
I know eve isn't real life but the analogy applies.
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Dariah Stardweller
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Posted - 2009.03.19 10:33:00 -
[20]
I try to find a nice and quiet belt for myself usually but if I see some huge veld roids and some other miner is chipping away at them I will gladly joining the party.
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Scott Ryder
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.03.19 11:44:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Enish Rangar This is dumb.
The only etiquette involved in belt mining is this... ask me to leave "your belt"... i'll beat you with "my belt". As others have said there is plenty of ore to go around and if you have a "crappy" attitude I'll leave you to your pod to think about your words towards me... or not in a pod at all.
You are a ! and will never pod me. Ever
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Clocky
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Posted - 2009.03.19 12:05:00 -
[22]
I was melting some roids the other day and I noticed a newish guy in a retriver come to the belt and started mining into his set of GSC containers and even though there was a ton of ore left to mine in the belt I left him to it and went off to another belt.
I did this because I have a big heart and have mined into GSC long ago in my noobie days so I know how much trouble he went to setting them up -).
I really need to stop doing that
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Enish Rangar
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Posted - 2009.03.19 12:10:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Enish Rangar on 19/03/2009 12:12:30
Originally by: Scott Ryder
Originally by: Enish Rangar This is dumb.
The only etiquette involved in belt mining is this... ask me to leave "your belt"... i'll beat you with "my belt". As others have said there is plenty of ore to go around and if you have a "crappy" attitude I'll leave you to your pod to think about your words towards me... or not in a pod at all.
You are a ! and will never pod me. Ever
If I'll never pod you, then you aren't a miner... I assume you're a fighter. If you're a miner, it's possible I might pod you. It's just a fact.
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Aiko Intaki
Lodizal Capsuleers Lodizal Conglomerate
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Posted - 2009.03.19 12:18:00 -
[24]
I use a purely selfish estimation in such cases...
I'm generally moving more than just a hulk about when I mine. If it looks like I'm going to have to move and setup again in the near future because someone is contesting the resources... I'll move along. If, however, they are a lone retriever in a particularly nice high sec field, I'll generally setup camp and clear the place out.
Honoring multi-pilot mining ops is generally a given consider this priority.
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Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar Empire Mining and Trade
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Posted - 2009.03.19 12:25:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Carlisle Veritas Hi All.
I did a few searches for etiquette in the forums and could not find anything on this topic, so here goes.
I'm interested in people's opinion on miner etiquette. For example, if you arrive at belt and there's someone there, should you a) find another belt, or b) go about your normal mining business. People have been picked out in local, and on occasion I've been pm'd for "intruding" on another miner's belt. Personally I don't particularly care, but some people get annoyed if you don't move.
Example 2. You're mining in a belt with other miners and they start mining the roid that you're mining. My personal opinion: It's not yours until in your cargo hold (and even then... ). Some people get upset, others don't care.
These situations can sometimes make for amusing local smack talk, but other times are just annoying.
Similar things can go for wrecks of rats you kill while mining. Some people ask, others just go for it.
So, what are your thoughts? Would you leave a belt if someone who's already there asked you to? Do you move on anyway if you find someone already in a belt? Would you pick someone out for mining "your" ore? Does etiquette have a place in Eve at all?
Cheers.
Carl.
I think youll find most miners adhere to some sort of etiquette even if they talk big on forums. As long as there is plenty of ore to go around there is no point in snaking someone elses ore, as they will simply do it back, and then we all lose.
To answer your questions, if i arrive at belt and someone is already there, Ill move. Etiquette has a place in eve as far as people dont want to get into fights, and make isk.
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Khwalik
Ghetto Kings
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Posted - 2009.03.19 12:39:00 -
[26]
Example One, typically if it's one barge and the belt isn't sacked yet I'll set up on the oppisite end from the other miner.
Example 2, I don't lock on roids someone else is locked on, it's just a waste of time. And 90% of the people that mine the systems I work in are the same way. The ones that don't generally are noobs in retrievers that haven't mined long to begin with.
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience Rally Against Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.19 13:17:00 -
[27]
Sorry sir what you are looking for is good manners within the convines of Eve.
While even the most hard core of pirates CAN sometimes be willing to offer advice to the person they attempted to ransom, it's only for their own motives, i.e they'll take the advice on board and come back with better stuff.
Cycling mining lasers is a "tactic" that can be hilarious either way, if they notice what you're doing then they can either i) whinge about it to you, ii) do the same thing as you're doing or iii) both. Either way, it comes down to who's paying more attention, me or them?
There MAY be enough minerals in the game, tritanium accounts for 75% of the total volume for the average ship btw, hence the crazy tritanium prices, but come on - this is a sandbox after all and it's the person with the biggest sandcastle left standing when they close the park that will get the most kudos and internet-appreciation, so it's a race. They might not turn the servers off for the next five, ten or years, but I didn't say it was going to be a quick race. -------------------------- Life is about memories the more the better. Eve Online Batch Calculator |
Maxpie
Cross Roads
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Posted - 2009.03.19 14:10:00 -
[28]
Why are you mining in such a busy area? Find a nice out of the way place. You will have tons of roids and no can flippers. If I was in your situation, I think I'd just go to another belt. If all the belts had other miners and for some reason I still wanted to mine in this system, I would probably give basic courtesy, not mine their roids, and mine in a quiet part of the belt to reduce the chance of them infringing on my roids.
He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things. |
Scott Ryder
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.03.19 14:27:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Scott Ryder on 19/03/2009 14:27:56
Originally by: Enish Rangar
If I'll never pod you, then you aren't a miner... I assume you're a fighter. If you're a miner, it's possible I might pod you. It's just a fact.
I used to be a miner. But not on this char. My miner has roughly 25 mil sp. 7 mil sp in drones and alot in shields. Can easly with the right fit tank 400 dps and do 192. Enough to tank most battlecruisers. Stuff like nosses and neuts will offcourse render my tank useless.
But seriusly a 2.5 year old char seldom gets podded by a !. Ive been attacked by a arazu in 0.0 in a dual pithi b and invuln II fit and endt up chasing him away. Remember that 25 mil sp means experience, knowlegde (usually), decent wallet, well fit and at times a damnation or pilgrim alt within range. If not they are just simply dumb
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Stick Cult
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Posted - 2009.03.19 15:16:00 -
[30]
If the belt is almost gone and someone else is there, or if its an op I'm not involved in, I'll just find another belt. However, if there's someone else in a HUGE belt, no reason it can't be shared.
Of course, if I just want the belt, or if there's a macro, I'll just go get a mwd bs and bump them out of the belt.
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Irish Blend
Caldari 10045th Logistics Battalion
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Posted - 2009.03.19 16:13:00 -
[31]
In a fleeted up mining op, we want people on different roids and using ore scanners to cycle on and off their strip miners to minimize wasted time.
In a non fleeted belt, its first come first served.
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Max Thorus
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Posted - 2009.03.19 16:32:00 -
[32]
back to topic!
Theres only 2 rule in HighSec Mining Etiquette, for me. - Dont mine roids, other people are already working on. - Stay 30km (Strip Miner Range x2) away from other miners.
I usualy ignore rule 2, if the other Miner is flying something smaller then a barge. And if someone else breaks this rules, I friendly convo em.
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Tadesae
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Posted - 2009.03.19 17:00:00 -
[33]
The other night some guy jumps into a belt I was mining alone. He sets up 10km or so from me and proceeds to mine. Moments later One of his miners is chipping away at one of the roids I was mining.
I did think... "Thats cute Jerk!" But to convo another player to whine about that is kinda petty. I just kept chipping away at it and targeted some roids closer to him. No big deal.
Is there mining etiqute? I don't think so. People just like their space if they can get it. In the end what exactly are you gonna do about somebody mining your roid besides sound like a schoolgirl. Move on
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Pwett
QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2009.03.19 17:12:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Tadesae The other night some guy jumps into a belt I was mining alone. He sets up 10km or so from me and proceeds to mine. Moments later One of his miners is chipping away at one of the roids I was mining.
I did think... "Thats cute Jerk!" But to convo another player to whine about that is kinda petty. I just kept chipping away at it and targeted some roids closer to him. No big deal.
Is there mining etiqute? I don't think so. People just like their space if they can get it. In the end what exactly are you gonna do about somebody mining your roid besides sound like a schoolgirl. Move on
At this point, you position your ship so your mining drone gets stuck on his hull and screws with his aerodynamics. It's akin to keying his car. _______________ <Q> QUANT Hegemony QUANT is rebuilding, EVE-Mail me for recruitment info. Item Database |
Carlisle Veritas
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Posted - 2009.03.19 23:32:00 -
[35]
Hi All,
Thank you for all the interesting opinions. This kind of stuff is fascinating, in a people-watching kind of way.
Anyone with more opinions and stories?
Keep them coming!
Cheers!
Carl.
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Ron Santo
The Hull Miners Union Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2009.03.20 00:22:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Tadesae The other night some guy jumps into a belt I was mining alone. He sets up 10km or so from me and proceeds to mine. Moments later One of his miners is chipping away at one of the roids I was mining.
I did think... "Thats cute Jerk!" But to convo another player to whine about that is kinda petty. I just kept chipping away at it and targeted some roids closer to him. No big deal.
Is there mining etiqute? I don't think so. People just like their space if they can get it. In the end what exactly are you gonna do about somebody mining your roid besides sound like a schoolgirl. Move on
1) wardec 2) kill/pod 3) ??? 4) profit
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Evannas
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.20 01:13:00 -
[37]
There really aren't any rules in a game. If you observe your own set of morals no one can fault you for that. But you need to understand not everyone would agree with your point of view. I, for instance, do not believe a given asteroid belongs to me and could care less if someone else mines it along with me. Consequently I hold that opinion of all asteroids.
I am a very simple miner. I crawl from one end of the belt to the other and mine everything along the way. And I usually don't even both looking at anything other than my overview which is set up for mining, and my survey window. I bet a lot of miners do exactly the same.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.03.20 02:22:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Evannas
I am a very simple miner. I crawl from one end of the belt to the other and mine everything along the way. And I usually don't even both looking at anything other than my overview which is set up for mining, and my survey window.
QFT. If someone starts mining an asteroid I'm working on, I start cycling my my mining lasers in half cycles just to strip it out from under them. But I'm a petty b*tch sometimes.
--Vel
There is no right or wrong way. There is only what works and what leaves you waking up in a clone vat. |
Sushi Chef
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Posted - 2009.03.20 03:26:00 -
[39]
I think it's safe to say most people who choose the mining life aren't as rude and ignorant as some of the people posting in this thread. Those kinda people are attracted to Empire PvP for a reason.
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Uppgrayedd
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Posted - 2009.03.20 04:09:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ron Santo
Originally by: Tadesae The other night some guy jumps into a belt I was mining alone. He sets up 10km or so from me and proceeds to mine. Moments later One of his miners is chipping away at one of the roids I was mining.
I did think... "Thats cute Jerk!" But to convo another player to whine about that is kinda petty. I just kept chipping away at it and targeted some roids closer to him. No big deal.
Is there mining etiqute? I don't think so. People just like their space if they can get it. In the end what exactly are you gonna do about somebody mining your roid besides sound like a schoolgirl. Move on
1) wardec 2) kill/pod 3) ??? 4) profit
This. U'd be surprised how many war dec threats get thrown around local when people are mining. and for some reason people see the hulks and orca in our mining ops and just decide to war dec us. most of them claim they dec'd us cuz "someone payed them" and then go away after we kill them a couple times... ()
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Sir Elliot
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Posted - 2009.03.20 05:54:00 -
[41]
"There is no reason to pity the fools."
So let it be written. So let it be done.
Space is cold, dark, harsh, and unforgiving. Welcome to eve. Thanks for the KM.
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Kalenia Rostok
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Posted - 2009.03.20 07:56:00 -
[42]
Had a case of a dork miner earlier today. He was solo in a hulk on one end of a belt, I'd already scanned out the belt (and killed the npc rats in it) and was on my way back with my hulk and orca. I grab the other end of the belt and start mining in my usual pattern. No problems so far. He fills up, warps off, does his thing comes back, and starts mining the 3 big rocks on *my side* of the belt. He had big rocks on his side, but for some reason, he felt the need to mine the ones on the side I was on. I switch up to mine as much of the big rocks as I could... I do so... (I mined a lot more faster...) I said "Don't do that..." on local. He never responded. Finally, all the veldspar was mined out by me, and he just stopped mining at that point (I switched to scord).... 15 mins later he finally warps off.
Idiot.
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Dark Voynix
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2009.03.20 09:17:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Enish Rangar Edited by: Enish Rangar on 19/03/2009 08:54:41
Originally by: Snow Banshee Edited by: Snow Banshee on 19/03/2009 08:37:37 im quite surprised by soem answers here. Its obvious that nobody posses the belt but we are talking about netiquette not laws or property.
imho:
* if there are some empty belt in same system i find there's no reason to steal roids each others. * if there are not empty belts, then go to same belt but start mining quite far, from the other guys ( so he will mine first minerals near him, and you those near you ) * if in the same belt there is a mining op with several professionals they will most likelly deplete the whole belt quite fast , so if possible i would chose another belt ( its not just a favour to them.. its also at your advangage find a belt ther you can mine in peace) * if the other miners are just noob in frigs... just avoid to mine the same roid. * hail other miners and ask if "roids are hoot today". :-)
Obviusly thore are just my personal opinion and are not to be considered laws.. just some basic netiquette rules. You can follow them or not , as the same way you can ne nice or a pure bas<beeeep!>rd, in eve you can be whatever you prefer.
Netiquette? Are you mad? Netiquette does not apply in an MMORPG... just the rules of the game apply (which as all EVE players know, you make your own rules). Quit whining and trying to impose "netiquette rules" (<- NOT RULES) on others when they just don't apply.
P.S. I guess I should state that I'm okay with moving along to an unmanned belt... but I'm against someone trying to tell others the "proper way" in a game of this nature.
Netiquette is not something you can impose.. its just some unwritten manners that you can follow if you wish, but you will get no repercussions if you dont follow them. There's no imposing anywhere, nor its possible to do ( else will becore real rules or laws, not just netiquettes).
Op just asked what netiquette could be reasonable to follow, and the guy answered. But again, due to netiquette nature, no imposing is possible , and no repercussion is possible for those who dont want to follow them.
If someone cry , that you are not polite, Just let them cry. :D
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.03.20 09:23:00 -
[44]
I feel like EvE is a Far West simulation. What happened when 2+ guys claimed ownership to the same "new" territory / resources? Don't think they used etiquette a lot.
Anyway I usually go in an out of the way system so I setup my characters and can strip multiple belts. If someone else arrives, he's welcome, but all he'll really manage to get is Scordite. The other roids get eaten at sickening rate, he could do maybe 2-3 cycles per each before I harvested them.
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Angel Mortalitas
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Posted - 2009.03.20 11:42:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sushi Chef I think it's safe to say most people who choose the mining life aren't as rude and ignorant as some of the people posting in this thread. Those kinda people are attracted to Empire PvP for a reason.
Fair to say they are probably PvPers who couldn't cut it in lo/null sec. Hmm?
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Dedalus77
Junkyard Dogs Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.20 14:34:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Dedalus77 on 20/03/2009 14:34:23 This is a pvp game. To me, that does not only refer to flying around and shooting at each other, it refers to every aspect of the game. The .01 ISK wars in the market are pvp. Mining a roid before someone else is pvp. Buying low and selling high is pvp. There are finite resources in EVE and we are all competing with one another for them. Until the ore is actually in my hold, it doesn't yet belong to me and is absolutely fair game imo.
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Ikserak tai
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Posted - 2009.03.20 15:29:00 -
[47]
I usually bookmark the type of 'roid I want to mine, go to another belt, bookmark, and then warp to 0 the first bookmark. Cuts way down on getting into range for my mining drones.
If I see another miner, I'll check to see what type of 'roid he's mining, more often than not it's a different ore, and I see no reason to go to a farther part of the belt, or another belt. Occasionally I'll go to the second belt I bookmarked, as I enjoy my solitude.
If I see a noob pecking away at a 'roid in a Tormentor (shrimp boat) or other mining frigate, I'll check them out in People and Places. If they're indeed a wet-behind-the-ears novice, I'll transfer 500k to 1m to them, then private convo them, and ask them to check their wallet.
Most of them are pretty grateful, and they usually warp right off to buy a new ship of some sort. I remember my days of mining in a frigate, and know that this is a player trying to scratch some Isk the hard way. It's enough Isk to give some encouragement, but not enough to make them forget how hard it is to get Isk right off.
I think there is room for etiquette in the belts, as there's plenty of meanness elsewhere in Eve, and mining is somewhat a respite from all of that but still a source of income.
YOU'VE NEVER ROCKED 'TIL YOU'VE UNDOCKED. |
Starmaiden1183
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Posted - 2009.03.20 15:32:00 -
[48]
I have 2 hulks and a hauler, I'm there to bust rocks.
If someone is mining away I try to avoid them best as possible, especially a newer player. They usually get the hint and move on when they need to unload their cargo, they move to another belt. The only exception would be a macro (and I know who they are in my area) in that case, I mine everything out from under them.
IF someone were to warp in and lock on my rock it wouldnt bother me, because Im taking all of them anyway, if you can compete with 2 hulks with 3 T2 lasers and 5 T2 mining drones each go ahead. I wouldn't lock on someones rock if I could avoid it. I would mine around them best as possible.
I mine a relatively quiet area (cept for a handfull of macros) so I hardly ever have to use the above examples on anyone.
My opinion is, that hulks should not be allowed in higher sec areas, this gives new players the chance to mine and make isk.
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Carlisle Veritas
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Posted - 2009.03.21 00:18:00 -
[49]
Got in interesting one that happened to me today.
Last night, I scanned out a Grav site with Hemorphite, Jaspet and Kernite (in high sec). I mined most of the hemorphite and then went to bed.
I log on today and go back to the site in my hulk. A retty is there mining the jaspet. Doesn't bother me, he scanned the place down and so is entitled to anything he can find.
I fly over to the two remaining hemorphite rocks (which he was ignoring for some reason), and start mining.
He then gets his drones out and flies over to bump my hulk. Nothing said in local... I didn't say anthing either. This continues until I've mined the two hemorphite roids (he's stopped mining to bump me).
I sit there for a while intriged. He starts orbitting me, still says nothing in local. I wonder why he's wasting his time, and not just mining what he wants as fast as he can. He leaves and comes back in a drake, orbits and bumps. Eventually some of my corp mates show up to toy with him. He responds when they taunt him in local by calling us thieves.
So I explain I scanned the site down last night, which is why most of the hemorphite was missing when he got there. All was then good and we left. Probably not the ending the pirates were hoping for, but then I'm a nice guy .
Still, interesting behaviour in my opinion.
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Azirapheal
Amarr Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.21 01:14:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Sushi Chef I think it's safe to say most people who choose the mining life aren't as rude and ignorant as some of the people posting in this thread. Those kinda people are attracted to Empire PvP for a reason.
you never know who is reading... i take offence at being likened to a childish cretin. especially from someone that in all likeliness wont leave highsec unless its to go to a 0.0 in safe empire space.
ill probably bump into you when you do decide to leave your cocoon, i hope your more courteous and less supercillious when i have you locked down.
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tatonka smith
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Posted - 2009.03.21 05:38:00 -
[51]
Run level 3 and 4 missions until you hit a mission with a belt in it. Mine the belt. Invite your corpmates. Ignore the SS belts.
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Sushi Chef
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Posted - 2009.03.21 06:24:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Azirapheal ill probably bump into you when you do decide to leave your cocoon, i hope your more courteous and less supercillious when i have you locked down.
Don't be so confident I don't have the teeth to fire back. My point is, we are there to make money. Sometimes we mine in Empire for a little peace and quiet from the constant roams and camps of 0.0. You don't make money by being petty selfish little kids.
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Sep'Shoni
Gallente Carpe Diem inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.24 16:58:00 -
[53]
I solo mine a lot because my corp only has a couple other miners. I'm not going to park on top of you and I'm not going to intentionally mine the rock you've got your lasers on. But if you're sitting in the system's last belt that hasn't been stripped of its veld I'm not giving up getting veld today either.
Seems to me good manners create a win-win situation where both parties get to mine the ore instead of wasting time squabbling while someone else comes in and does the mining.
Sep'Shoni
Newb looking for a home. |
Gin'Ja Tamake
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Posted - 2009.03.27 21:47:00 -
[54]
I do a lot of solo and AFK mining and I find that etiquette is in the eye of the beholder.
I stay out of the way of mining ops and expect that they'll tear through everything and everyone in their path. Common sense.
I know who the macrominers are in the systems I frequent, and expect they'll warp in and target whatever is closer. No point complaining to a bot. If I have time, I capture some timings and file a petition.
If someone else starts chewing on one of "my" 'roids, and I'm in a possessive mood, I drop a polite note in local. 6 times out of 10 they're not monitoring. 3 times out of 10 they say "Sorry" and move on. Rarely do I get some who says "tough #$@#, &%%hole!". If I get attitude it's "my bad" for opening my mouth, so I usually mark them as an idiot 10-year-old and let it go.
If I find myself chewing on someone else's roid (sometimes it happens - I'm looking at the scan results, not the 'roids themselves) and I notice (or someone calls me on it in local), I move on.
Ultimately you can't control how other people play. Just yourself. Etiquette isn't universal (for example, there are a lot of "right" ways to place your cutlery at the end of a meal: tines up, tines down, 12-6 o'clock, 10-5 o'clock, etc. - it depends on where you are, how you were raised, etc.).
Now, the other day I had a fun situation. There were two retrievers dumping ore into a can with a Badger doing pick-ups. They were repeatedly 'sharing' my roids and I watched them chewing up the belt for about 30 minutes before I realized they were a macromining team. So, feeling like an adventurous CareBear, I went and got my own cargo-maximized Badger II, pulled up to their can, and took a full load. No reaction. No change in behaviour. No drones. Nothing. So I dropped my load at a local station, waited for the aggro timer to run down, and went back in my Drake. They were still there, and hadn't gone to get an escort. So I did it again. And again. And again....and yes, again. :) I must have taken 90% of their haul before someone got wise and they exited the game. I hope they come back, it was easy (and fun) money.
Gin'Ja
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Argendta
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Posted - 2009.03.27 22:17:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Gin'Ja Tamake
Etiquette isn't universal (for example, there are a lot of "right" ways to place your cutlery at the end of a meal: tines up, tines down, 12-6 o'clock, 10-5 o'clock, etc. - it depends on where you are, how you were raised, etc.). Gin'Ja
You creep me out here... Is it okay that such hoi polloi like me, who has no idea how to put tines 12-5 o'clock (whatever it is), are in the same universe as your lordship?
:)
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Imertu Solientai
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.27 22:22:00 -
[56]
c) mine the same asteroid as them and invite everyone else in local to do the same. Annoy them until they shoot at you and get concorded.
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Gin'Ja Tamake
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Posted - 2009.03.27 23:52:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Argendta
Originally by: Gin'Ja Tamake
Etiquette isn't universal (for example, there are a lot of "right" ways to place your cutlery at the end of a meal: tines up, tines down, 12-6 o'clock, 10-5 o'clock, etc. - it depends on where you are, how you were raised, etc.). Gin'Ja
You creep me out here... Is it okay that such hoi polloi like me, who has no idea how to put tines 12-5 o'clock (whatever it is), are in the same universe as your lordship?
:)
I take umbrage to your insinuation!
When I am finished with a meal I usually indicate it with a belch that could peel the paint off the kitchen door.
Which is why I know all the different approaches to aligning your cutlery - helpful (and sometimes stunned) people are always telling me the 'right' way to do it....it's just that everyone has a different definition of 'right'.
Kind of like....mining etiquette in EVE... And views on macromining in EVE.... And nerfed Falcons... Noob griefing... 0.01 ISK trading...
But we're getting off topic...
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Jormungand Altruis
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.28 00:01:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Argendta
Originally by: Gin'Ja Tamake
Etiquette isn't universal (for example, there are a lot of "right" ways to place your cutlery at the end of a meal: tines up, tines down, 12-6 o'clock, 10-5 o'clock, etc. - it depends on where you are, how you were raised, etc.). Gin'Ja
You creep me out here... Is it okay that such hoi polloi like me, who has no idea how to put tines 12-5 o'clock (whatever it is), are in the same universe as your lordship?
:)
Personally, I'm wondering how he can put the silverware from 10-5 o'clock. Unless he has some kind of bent silverware or something... -- "Like sending messages in bottles. Bottles with superior firepower." |
Bubo Scandinavica
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.03.28 00:09:00 -
[59]
I usually stay away from mining too close to someone else and esp away from the same rock.
But it's not due to etiquette as such, more common sense and maximizing my own gains.
- I don't gain anything by making other people miffed.
- I lose time/ore/money by having to micro manage my targets.
But since I (and some friends) are n00bs and are GSC mining we'll sometimes end up in a crowd and sometimes RL time constraints make it impractical to setup a new target or move the current one.
Then you'll just make the best out of the situation and at least stay off active rocks.
But again, it's not a matter of etiquette, it's all about maximizing my own gains.
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Rothgar Detris
Association of Interstellar Miners
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Posted - 2009.03.28 06:18:00 -
[60]
I sometimes solo mine in my Hulk. If I enter a belt that someone is already in, I usually give them the belt, if others are in easy reach.
I was mining a belt the other day and someone in a Coromant thought they could just warp in and start taking my roids (I was mining for a specific ore). I cured hime of that in about 3 minutes, as I simply targeted his roids and didn't leave it for him. As my Hulk has MSM II's with T2 Crystals vs. his (I assume) Miner 2's, it wasn't even close. I didn't feel a single iota of guilt since he came in and just started mining fairly close to me without even a greeting.
Lesson: He who has the bigger, better ship makes the rules.
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Krylon Rhae
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Posted - 2009.03.28 08:23:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Krylon Rhae on 28/03/2009 08:25:18 There is only one rule in EVE... there are no rules... at least no rules that are heeded to any extent. What rules do exist are routinely broken... so flyer beware.
That said, I have found that the old adage still applies even in this game, you can attrack more goodwill by demonstrating a sound and balanced mind.
I generally play the game the way I behave and act in R/L... good natured and easy going. That comes across in game and I have been rewarded several times by that easy going and naturally freindly approach.
Two cases in point...
Case One: Entered a system with a lone flyer in local. I was jumping through belts to scan for mining prospects and came across the fellow mining. I hailed him in local and commenced a conversation that lasted a good 20-minutes. Later he EVE-mailed me and said that since I seemed like a good fellow he was wondering if I would be interested in buying his ore on contract... deal done to both parties satisfaction. Had I been a jerk or imposed upon him then no deal could have been made.
Case two: I asked for a price check on a character I developed. A player said don't take less than 4-b, and he suggested some additional skills to train. I responded with my ideas and we struck up a converstaion. He asked if I wanted to sell him now as is and asked me how much. I said 4-b would be fine. He responded saying that since I seemed like a nice guy he would give me 4.25-b... deal done. Did I leave something on the table? Maybe. So what, I made a friend and we are both happy.
Sometimes it pays to not be a jerk.
Call it etiquette, netequette, rules, whatever you like. I just call it acting like a decent human being.
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Ronha Ottrit
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.28 09:48:00 -
[62]
You get more bees with honey...
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Iyanah
Minmatar Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2009.03.28 20:36:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Avalon Champion In your first example, the only time I'll move on to a new belt is if
a) its mostly gone b) theres an obvious mining op going on
As for being warned off, tell them to get stuffed, What exactly can/will they do? In highsec if they attack you concord comes along and pops them.
As for them getting annoyed even better, just post the chat logs in C&P, especially if you can get them riled up
In your second example, ordinarilly I wont mine another persons roid, as it takes a lot of micro management of the strips, however if in the case of example one, I'll go out of my way to mine the same roids just to see them whine more.
what he said ========================================== that's no moon... oh, wait, yes it is, the space station's out the other window. |
Kaylee Juuna
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Posted - 2009.03.29 05:58:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Kaylee Juuna on 29/03/2009 06:02:21 Edited by: Kaylee Juuna on 29/03/2009 06:02:10 Hahaha, all the morons who say 'Oh ill jus kil them lololol cusimsocoooool': Have fun buying a new ship when I can earn 6x as much ISK as you in any given time period.
No one thinks you're cool for saying 'badass' stuff. You aren't. You're playing EVE Online. A computer game. Like WoW.
Good lord.
Originally by: Krylon Rhae
That said, I have found that the old adage still applies even in this game, you can attrack more goodwill by demonstrating a sound and balanced mind.
This man is what I would call 'Not a moron'.
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Cassandra Starrider
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Posted - 2009.03.29 07:44:00 -
[65]
I like doing missions, lots of missions have roids in them so i mine out the mission after i kill the rats no hassles no fuss yeah some one could scan me out but why would they bother in high sec. and yeah if i'm in a belt and some one comes along to be a ass i move on, if they keep coming and being anoying go do some thing else better things to do than stare at lasers anyway.
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Krylon Rhae
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Posted - 2009.03.29 10:10:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Kaylee Juuna
This man is what I would call 'Not a moron'.
Thank you...
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Roshwi
Amarr The Bird Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.29 13:33:00 -
[67]
I am in a small corp in which we have all trained up our mining skills. With an Orca and three Hulks (all with techII, 22km range, 138sec cycle time, and about 1650 - 1700c3 per cycle) shareing a belt is in no ones best interest. As it is with just three Hulks we are constantly communicating to keep out of each others way. We do not set up in a belt that is already being mined and if another exhumer shows up they usually leave pretty quick when they see us in the middle of the belt mining roids at 22k
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Ferdio Ricotez
Gallente Gisleres Mining Federation Knights Collective
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Posted - 2009.03.29 15:54:00 -
[68]
Belts are no-one's property, and unless they aim a big gun at my ship, I get to mine where I want to.
As long as there are 'free' asteroids of the same type, I consider it useless and rude to start mining on the same asteroid as someone else. However, if there's only a single roid of dense veldspar left, and you want dense veldspar but someone else is mining it, well, it's not his untill it's in his cargo hold, so there's nothing against mining it. Of course, it may be a better idea to search for another belt if there's only one asteroid of a certain type left and let the miner and the roid be. Tip: Bookmark an asteroid in the belt. That way, you'll end up right next to the rocks instead of having to fly another 50km after you warp. |
Liz Laser
Three 6 MaFiA Dark Crystal Empire
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Posted - 2009.03.30 14:08:00 -
[69]
Some people don't even know if they're mining the same asteroid as you. Because I PvP I have turret effects (and lots of other stuff) turned off.
If I see people mining, I'll (usually) look for the least occupied belt and start at a portion farthest from the others. But if they don't like the way I'm mining, Eve gives them a variety of options to express their ill will.
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Whitehound
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Posted - 2009.03.30 17:25:00 -
[70]
An etiquette works for adults - in a game with folk of all ages is it not helpful. An MMO is a place where people learn while interacting with one another. Having rules how to interact does not teach the various consequences as good as free interactions. People would learn the etiquette without understanding it, and others would fight it for this reason.
Instead, if there is anything which upsets you, remember it, and grow.
If you are not in the mood to interact, such days exist, then seek a quieter place.
And if there are days where you cannot have a little peace and Hulks start mining in 1.0-0.9 sec beginning at belt 1 as if all other miners would not exist, then start feeling little and do AFK-mining. Just think that one day you will be sitting in a Hulk and can be as ignorant as them! -- If there is anything in your life you fear of losing, then keep your mouth shut once in a while. |
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JaseNZ
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.04.01 08:22:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Carlisle Veritas Hi All.
I did a few searches for etiquette in the forums and could not find anything on this topic, so here goes.
I'm interested in people's opinion on miner etiquette. For example, if you arrive at belt and there's someone there, should you a) find another belt, or b) go about your normal mining business. People have been picked out in local, and on occasion I've been pm'd for "intruding" on another miner's belt. Personally I don't particularly care, but some people get annoyed if you don't move.
Example 2. You're mining in a belt with other miners and they start mining the roid that you're mining. My personal opinion: It's not yours until in your cargo hold (and even then... ). Some people get upset, others don't care.
These situations can sometimes make for amusing local smack talk, but other times are just annoying.
Similar things can go for wrecks of rats you kill while mining. Some people ask, others just go for it.
So, what are your thoughts? Would you leave a belt if someone who's already there asked you to? Do you move on anyway if you find someone already in a belt? Would you pick someone out for mining "your" ore? Does etiquette have a place in Eve at all?
Cheers.
Carl.
If I am looking for a belt to mine, and warp into one where someone else is already mining, I either go to the other end, and wark towards them (if it's a large belt) or move on to another belt.
I don't go about being a *rick and mine any asteroids they're mining, and I don't really appreciate it being done to me.
If the other miner is in a small boat, or mining by themselves, I usually offer to fleet with them, so my alt can boost them. We all start out at one stage, so I think it's good to help others out. People helped me out, so I will help others if I can. Occasionally hauled for others with my alt as well, and traded their ore to them back at station, cos I know what a pain in the *** it was to fill a jetcan in a frigate/cruiser.
Had a few instances where I was mining in my Hyperion, and a Hulk warped in and mined over the top of me, and mined whatever asteroids I was mining at the time. It is annoying, but hey, he's in a Hulk, I'm in a Battleship (my 1 minute cycles trump his 3 minute cycles lol)
Back over the Christmas period when we had snowballs I had one fitted in a spare high slot, anyone that mined my rocks gor passively locked, and fired on. They were too busy going at me in local "Why are you attacking me?!?!" to notice it was just a snowball...but they got the message, and we left each other alone after that lol.
Also come across some mining ops moving into the belt I was working on...and they started mining everything in sight, and gave me ISK, and I waved and moved on.
These have been my experiences.
It all depends on the people you come across. Some are helpful, some are just in it for themselves, and don't give a frack about others.
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Guy Fitzgerald
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Posted - 2009.04.01 19:58:00 -
[72]
Uhm, i dont mind if somebody jumps into the Belt and starts mining, after all, those Belts are FFA.
Same thing the other way arround, i dont care if someone allready works in that belt, after all, it is not his belt.
What i would not do, is mining from an Roid sombody is allready working on, its not that i would call it "unfair" or something, i just think, its not worth the time turning my Strip miners on a maybe nearly empty roid.
So two questions left, that would be:
Would you leave a belt if someone who's already there asked you to?
No, for shure not, if he wants me out, he can pay me for leaving, or he can get some weapons and throw me out.
Does etiquette have a place in Eve at all?
Shure it has, and there is enough of it going arround in eve, its not that everybody you encounter heads toward you with guns blazing calling you names, or?
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MoAbM
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.04.02 07:58:00 -
[73]
As a new miner and EVE player i find it mildly disturbing if someone mines the same roid i am working on especially since i use a GSC mining technique(so warp in with a badger,find roids i want,get in range,anchor the bloody things,ofc not within 5000m of anything "insert swear word",jump back get the mining cruiser,jump back again)and then i finally start and a guy with a hulk jumps in and starts working on the same roid(plans go down the toilet).That said if i come to a belt and see anyone in it i got to the farthest rock from him i can find(of the ore i want to mine) and start working the other end towards him(be it a hulk or a frigate makes no difference),furthermore if i see a bigger op around i just move on to another field since they will probablly mine it all in a short time.
Ofc i have to say that all the ppl i have met in the fields(except the one guy with a hulk) have been most helpfull by inviting me to a fleet,giving advice on how to reach my goals as soon as possible,even going so far as sending me ISK,items and a ton of different help(setting overviews,killing rats coming at me,asking do i want them to remove wrecks so i can anchor the GSC,etc.)
On a side note yesterday i had my first run in with a can flipper(i know where u live ;).I was hauling for a guy working with a hulk(using a badger) and he jetted the cans i would warp fill the cargo and warp back,the guy came took the cargo and dropped his in the hope i would open it and give him kill rights(thankfully i got sound advice to always see whose can ti is before i open it) so it didnt work.The guy was warping in and out every couple of mins checking if we touched the can which we didn't,so i guess he got bored and left. Mining is not a job it's a lifestyle. |
Petra Verkaik
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Posted - 2009.04.02 11:01:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Abrazzar The one who yields first gets the ore.
Let them cry. If their whines get on your nerves, give them a reason to whine and suicide gank their precious Exhumers. If they still not get that EVE is essentially a PvP focused game, tell them that WoW will be much more entertaining for them.
There is no reason to pity the fools.
First off, Eve-Online is not a "PvP only" MMO. Though, PvP is a large part of it. But it doesn't hurt to be polite and civilized. Look at the real world : surviving id not always about the strongest impose his way to others. In fact, many examples shows that surviving is mostly a mater of cooperation.
You can be a PvPer playing with a moral code. For instance, you can destroy a pirate who steal you and be cool with a players who are cool. But it seems that many forget that. They think that, because they are stronger, they dont need to respect others.
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