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Selance
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Posted - 2009.03.17 13:59:00 -
[1]
Sp ive been playing EVE now for a few months. Two things I feel that need well not change but adjustment are skill training and social interaction.
First skill training- as it is this is an almost entirely passive thing. The only thing you need to do to advance in this game is log on for skill training. If you only did this for even 4 months you would suddenly be able to pilot perhaps a tech2 ship and use good equipment for it, or be in a hulk or manufacture a huge variety of goods.
An idea I can think of is something like a rewards scheme, as you participate in activities you gain points in a pool, after a certain threshold get xxx skill points to assign wherever you like. Points gained pool from different areas (industry, science, trade, combat). Say 500 skill points to spend on any skill of your choice. The idea being that as you play you can actively advance your character faster, there is a reason to log in. Will let a miner advance combat skills without slowing down training for a better miner/hauler. For a 30m sp character 500 sp is nothing but for a new character its huge and would help a lot. Could even have a cut off, say wont get any more free sp with this after you get 20m total sp so higher sp characters don't advance even further ahead.
Second thing is with skill requirements. After you have trained the skill this is a moot issue, but when starting fresh and figuring out you cant make alts to try out different things (without buying another account) skill requirements are stifling. I guess this sort of sums it up:
"Why do I have to wait to fly a ship that other guy can already fly? Taking effort to get there is ok but I have to just sit and wait?"
I'm mostly talking about ships up to battleships and some smaller tech 2 ships. I'm not saying to allow anyone to fly them right away, rather make the initial training to use them lower, but leave the training to use them *well* as is. Something like making the pre-req for battleship cruiser 3 instead of cruiser 4. Maybe tech2 cruisers needing lvl 4 skills instead of lvl 5. This way people can get into a decent ship sooner and it doesn't impact other people already flying them because well, they are already flying it better. Also be more customers for such things then too
Sure skills are made to take a while so that you keep playing and watch your character advance. However there is what 20+ years of skill training available?
The other thing is the social aspect of this game. The game reinforces playing alone, if you join random groups you are just opening yourself to be shot in the back by pirates. Sharing information is dangerous so its safer not to talk to people outside your corp. The full API does nothing but promote distrust (you cant trust anyone without it).
Maybe make it so you cannot attack someone in your fleet without mutual consent (a popup with a yes/no, persists 5 minutes after someone leaves the fleet). Cannot attack anyone your corp/alliance has a non-aggression pact without mutual consent. A consent system for canisters in space, even as simple as allowing one to flag a canister to be white to everyone.
Fraud insurance of some kind (some form of contract, or allowing money to be held until a task is done). Not removing fraud/scamming but rather giving people the option to insure against it at high cost. After all that's what its like in real life (not really but irl you would be in jail). This would probably be way to hard but the idea of a "work contract" does make sense for EVE.
War in hi-sec: make it so if you attack another person in hi-sec, under any circumstances and concord vessels are there they will attack. Reason being I cant think of any country country that would call itself "secure" that would allow acts of violence in public. If no concord in earshot (aka none in overview) then no prob, but if its right on front of them then pew pew.
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Khlitouris RegusII
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Posted - 2009.03.17 14:01:00 -
[2]
The skill system is fine as it is no need to change it.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.17 14:03:00 -
[3]
I'm opposed to all of the OP's suggestions.
Whilst they may appear reasonable to the new player, they would simply remove what makes Eve special.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.03.17 14:07:00 -
[4]
With regards to the skill training points, the reason the current system is in place is to level the playing field in terms of training. Thus, if you spend 20 hours a day playing EVE, you're not going to advance your skills more than I will if I only play 5 hours a day. The real edge one person has over another is maybe how much isk they make in the same amount of time and the personal skill in doing something more than someone else has.
Someone will probably pipe up with a "you kids have it good" type of argument about the training times, and in a way they're right. With the new character skill gifts, attribute remapping, implants, etc. new players to EVE have the opportunity to totally outdo older veterans at that same stage in their EVE careers.
Social aspect... well this is one of the few MMOs out there that really really REALLY rewards people for working together. You CAN do solo content, but that's a very small part of the entire EVE 'experience', if you will. Using Apocrpyha as an example, I can easily scan down a wormhole myself in mere minutes, but to do much with the content inside I'm going to need a group of people to work with me.
I totally disagree with the mutual consent issue. EVE can never drill it into your head enough at the start: you're never safe in this game, ever (well unless docked or logged out heh). So expect at all times to possibly die even while in empire space. The game's not broken because of it, so adding a consent system would be a detriment to the established mechanics.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2009.03.17 14:08:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Selance The idea being that as you play you can actively advance your character faster, there is a reason to log in.
Apparently you haven't been playing long enough to learn that EVE is not a progress quest, skill training is not and is not meant to be the reason to log in.
Originally by: Selance "Why do I have to wait to fly a ship that other guy can already fly? Taking effort to get there is ok but I have to just sit and wait?"
To make the choices you make in the development of your character matter.
Originally by: Selance I'm not saying to allow anyone to fly them right away, rather make the initial training to use them lower, but leave the training to use them *well* as is.
So, you are interested only in the physical ability to fly the ship, not the ability to actually use it to do something? Progress questing again?
Originally by: Selance Maybe make it so you cannot attack someone in your fleet without mutual consent (a popup with a yes/no, persists 5 minutes after someone leaves the fleet). Cannot attack anyone your corp/alliance has a non-aggression pact without mutual consent. A consent system for canisters in space, even as simple as allowing one to flag a canister to be white to everyone.
[...]
War in hi-sec: make it so if you attack another person in hi-sec, under any circumstances and concord vessels are there they will attack. Reason being I cant think of any country country that would call itself "secure" that would allow acts of violence in public. If no concord in earshot (aka none in overview) then no prob, but if its right on front of them then pew pew.
Not the game you are looking for.
In summary, World of Warcraft awaits. -
DesuSigs |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.03.17 14:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Rodj Blake I'm opposed to all of the OP's suggestions.
Whilst they may appear reasonable to the new player, they would simply remove what makes Eve special.
This, including the understanding of the new-player perspective.
The grindless, long-term skill system is unique and far superior to just about anything other MMOs offer simply because it's grindless and long-term. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in =v=… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Myz Toyou
Ministry of Destruction
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Posted - 2009.03.17 14:22:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Selance
War in hi-sec: make it so if you attack another person in hi-sec, under any circumstances and concord vessels are there they will attack. Reason being I cant think of any country country that would call itself "secure" that would allow acts of violence in public. If no concord in earshot (aka none in overview) then no prob, but if its right on front of them then pew pew.
1st. CCP never said that Empire is "Secure" just abit more secure then low sec/0.0 is. Also, look at CONCORD as a kind of Blue Helmets in warzones, they watch that everyone is acting to the rules but don`t lift a finger.
2nd. current skill system is fine
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [gold]Your signature image exceeds the maximum allo |
Monkey Saturday
Fear Inc
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Posted - 2009.03.17 14:23:00 -
[8]
Not again.
SP != Skill at playing the game --------
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Mel Dareia
Amarr Legionari Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2009.03.17 14:26:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Rodj Blake I'm opposed to all of the OP's suggestions.
Whilst they may appear reasonable to the new player, they would simply remove what makes Eve special.
This.
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Ginako
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Posted - 2009.03.17 14:27:00 -
[10]
I appreciate your desire to bring change and "improvements" to the table for EVE but please remember... EVE has been around for quite a very long time now. Just about any suggestions that you or any other new player can think of... well, there is a 99.9% chance it has already been voiced.
Hope that didn't come off a rude. Didn't want it to be. Here I'll insert a teddy bear with glasses to lighten it up. --------------
Flying Minmatar is like strapping yourself to an office chair and firing Uzi's as you roll down a flight of stairs! |
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brinelan
Caldari Victory Not Vengeance
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Posted - 2009.03.17 15:16:00 -
[11]
Just because you have the skills to fly a ship dosent mean that:
A) you can afford said ship + mods + insurance. If you cant afford to buy (and lose) at least 2 right now with fit and insurance, then you cant afford to fly it.
B) Flying it well. My definition of that is that you can t2 fit the thing plus have the relevant supporting skills like cap, tanking etc to at least 4. Your views may vary, but this is what I use as my own goals when looking at a new ship. Of course, once you can t2 fit, say, an interceptor a lot of those skills are the same as for t2 mods on your next ship as well, so it gets easier to get in and fit a newer ship as you go.
As far as changing the skill system. NO. The system is fine, we have been using it for years and it works well. Eve is not like any other mmo, its slow and we like it that way.
Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield. |
TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.03.17 15:28:00 -
[12]
Edited by: TraininVain on 17/03/2009 15:29:17 **** no. No ****socking.
No.
Nope.
Definitely not.
No.
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charming wanderer
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Posted - 2009.03.17 15:39:00 -
[13]
The lack of supporting arguments from the initial poster leads me to believe that this is a troll topic...
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.03.17 15:39:00 -
[14]
OP: While you're capable of writing a reasonable post (which in itself seems to be amazing these days), you're very much wrong. For the simple reason that you offer solutions to problems that don't exist. The thing is that you're used to a different MMO design with different goals, rules etc and that you're trying to copy those 'beliefs' to EVE but that's the wrong way to do it.
The skill system works fine and has been working fine and EVE is what it is BECAUSE of all those things you mentioned, not in spite of it. The idea is that EVE gives you choices, REAL choices instead of simple goals like "have to get 80", "need T7 gear" or"need 450 cooking". Trying to mold WOW-like simplistic goal oriented gameplay into EVE will not work (even though some DEVS sure are trying hard).
Or in short; things that are easy, take no effort or have no risk to them have no value. If you want safe, easy going and no risk/effort gameplay you're playing the wrong MMO. Either adapt or leave but don't try to mold this niche MMO to be a carbon copy of every other WOW clone non-effort MMO.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Eben Rochelle
Gallente Black Nova Corp KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.03.17 15:50:00 -
[15]
We need a basic template for replies to these topics then it will only take one of us to politely ask the newer players to stop attempting to mould Eve to fit their MMO preconceptions and accept that Eve is not "insert popular mmorpg here" so the rest of us can get back to the serious business of discussing internet spaceships generally.
In response to the OP, why, after a game having been out for 5 years that consistently breaks records, earns awards and grows in population numbers do you think that coming onto the boards with the first thing that pops into your head about "how Eve would be better if" is a good idea? Most of the replies so far have been enourmously civil and it seems that the community is being particularly lenient, perhaps in an attempt not to drive new players away. Normally these sort of posts are met with walls of derision, scorn and contempt which i honestly believe they truly deserve.
Now in the spirit of the less than civil Eve community
either RTFM and L2P or GB2WOW
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Ana Vyr
DB - LJ Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.17 15:55:00 -
[16]
The skill system is a unique aspect of EvE that should not be changed. Any points based system would be abused by grouping up to make the accumnulation of points trivial....point in case, folks often group to share mission rewards which propels those who group up far further than solo players could hope for because advanced players will group with newbs to boost their standings very very quickly.
Social interaction is a challenge in EvE. It's true that you cannot trust anyone, and the game promotes this idea quite a bit, and rewards grief play in a lot of cases as well. That's EvE for you. While I would enjoy being able to form safe casual groups to roam around in lowsec, for example, I'm not sure this aspect of EvE should be messed with either because the uncertainty of interacting with others is part of the game challenge.
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Jamyl TashMurkon
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.17 15:59:00 -
[17]
Get out !
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Morlar
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Posted - 2009.03.17 16:08:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Morlar on 17/03/2009 16:09:20 One minor quibbling point that no one seems to directly mention...
Those skill books aren't free. The intro skills are cheap enough that maybe people don't think about it but the costs ramp up pretty quickly.
You need to login to earn ISK to buy the actual skills that you are training. For instance, Evemon figures I need another 44 million or so to finish buying the books for my Industrial skills, and that's MAYBE for 6-10 books for skills I don't yet know. And that's one skill plan.
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meat vapour
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Posted - 2009.03.17 16:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Selance Sp ive been playing EVE now for a few months.
/me puts forward motion to stop players <1 year old having "suggestions"...
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Scyala
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Posted - 2009.03.17 17:21:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Selance
First skill training- as it is this is an almost entirely passive thing. The only thing you need to do to advance in this game is log on for skill training. If you only did this for even 4 months you would suddenly be able to pilot perhaps a tech2 ship and use good equipment for it, or be in a hulk or manufacture a huge variety of goods.
That hulk costs 150 million ISK to buy and fit. plus another 30-50 million ISK to skill. You need to find some way to pay for these costs. Even a T2 AF costs about 30-50 million to fly. That 1 million you start out with isn't enough ;)
Originally by: Selance
An idea I can think of is something like a rewards scheme, as you participate in activities you gain points in a pool, after a certain threshold get xxx skill points to assign wherever you like.
A new player gets twice as many SP per hour as a vet...and you can put these anywhere you like by just clicking train skill ;)
Originally by: Selance
I'm mostly talking about ships up to battleships and some smaller tech 2 ships. I'm not saying to allow anyone to fly them right away, rather make the initial training to use them lower, but leave the training to use them *well* as is. Something like making the pre-req for battleship cruiser 3 instead of cruiser 4. Maybe tech2 cruisers needing lvl 4 skills instead of lvl 5. This way people can get into a decent ship sooner and it doesn't impact other people already flying them because well, they are already flying it better. Also be more customers for such things then too
A Battleship is not the only usefull ship in the game. Eve is the only MMO i know of that a newbie player has a place beside the Vets in combat. My corp runs Level 4 missions and we have one newbie that flys a frigate loaded with Tracking distruptors and target painters. None in their right mind wouldn't let him along to the battle. He probably increases our DPS by 10 - 20% especialy against cruisers. Plus he is able to keep the Warp scraming, tracking disrupting, sensor damping frigates off the heavys. With 5 heavys in the gang he's probably doing as much DPS with those tracking target painters as the battleships...and he's less than a month old.
Originally by: Selance
Maybe make it so you cannot attack someone in your fleet without mutual consent (a popup with a yes/no, persists 5 minutes after someone leaves the fleet).
If they are not in your corp and you are in high sec and you shoot them you get concorded. Even if they are in your fleet
Originally by: Selance
Fraud insurance of some kind (some form of contract, or allowing money to be held until a task is done). Not removing fraud/scamming but rather giving people the option to insure against it at high cost. After all that's what its like in real life (not really but irl you would be in jail). This would probably be way to hard but the idea of a "work contract" does make sense for EVE.
They have this. They are called contracts. For example you can contract someone to haul your stuff somewhere. They have to put down a deposit to get the contract and if they dont't complete the contract then you get the deposit they paid and if they do then they get the money you put up for the contract payment. It's actually really tough to be scammed in this game unless you fall for a get rich scheme or you arn't paying attention to the prices of things.
I think you should get into a corp and actually see what this game is about. This game isn't very good if you run around by yourself. It is one of the few MMO's that actually promote multi player. Most MMO's you could play on a 16 player server and the content wouldn't change drasticly.
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AkRoYeR
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.17 17:27:00 -
[21]
"The other thing is the social aspect of this game. The game reinforces playing alone, if you join random groups you are just opening yourself to be shot in the back by pirates. Sharing information is dangerous so its safer not to talk to people outside your corp. The full API does nothing but promote distrust (you cant trust anyone without it)."
This why no other game will ever rule over EvE Online!
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Cutie Chaser
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.17 17:40:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Selance
stuff
No one on the forums has any idea what the game is like from a new players perspective, so the ideas you've proposed will never be seriously considered. EVE has perhaps the best example of the "good ole boys club" mentality that you can ever observe.
To play you have to do your time and let the game grind skills for you while you fly around in trash, waiting for the numbers to tick up higher.
With luck, you'll find something fun to do along the way, and find some of the ways that exists to be competitive with people who are already playing... and there are ways to make up for a lack of skills, and much of this sort of advice is on the forums, which is a good place to start to read. *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers. |
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