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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Sunviking
The Shining Knights
34
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Posted - 2012.04.29 13:54:00 -
[61] - Quote
I really don't like this change.
I just trained my 2nd account up to do Research with agents, and I am now stuck in a rut with what to do for the next month while I wait for Inferno and confirmation on what is going to happen.
Research Project Management cost me ISK40million. Ok, I am rich, but it's still alot of ISK. And each of the Science skills used for Research costs ISK10million a pop. I spent hundreds of millions on these skills.
I agree that there should be no passive income to help fund PLEX, but as someone else has already stated, Why Not just make the continued accumulation on Research Points dependent on you completing those daily Research missions that are offered? i.e. if you don't do the mission after a day, your agent stops working for you until you complete it. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
1339
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Posted - 2012.04.29 14:07:00 -
[62] - Quote
Xython wrote:The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.
3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad.
Being in goons you should probably know the difference between an isk faucet (i.e. something that adds isk to the economy and leads to inflation) and a material faucets such as moongoo or datacores that just lead to redistribution of isk already in the game.
Concerning the possible changes, I don't really care since I couldn't be arsed to grind research alts up - however CCP will have to come with something to compensate those with research alts for their efforts. You know... morons. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
214
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Posted - 2012.04.29 16:28:00 -
[63] - Quote
This way of passive income comes at a price: Invest alot of playing time and the training time, plan ahead, maybe for years to get a ROI. Some people even created accounts for that and put in real cash.
I wonder how many RPs are researched each day in total. Maybe we can get a statement from CCP?
EGD: If you jettison what's in your brain, at least expect can flipping. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1867
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Posted - 2012.04.29 17:08:00 -
[64] - Quote
clixor wrote:Lictor Yeva wrote:The thing is, a lot of us researchers have trained our characters specifically for the purpose of research agents and have no other use for them.
You know you could use the invested SP into good use right? With little additional training you have a good inventor. But anyway, first of all, we're talking about the RACIAL DC, so changes would effect only a small portion of the agents. Second, the DC markets are pretty stable. So in this case we're not talking about something that is broken.
Guess you missed the part where CCP Soundwave talked about increasing the amount of research points needed to redeem Data Cores and possibly adding an ISK fee on top of that. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
612
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Posted - 2012.04.29 17:26:00 -
[65] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:+1 for nerfing passive income ! Ah good, if you could just sign this petition to buff Hulks...
Wait here me out....it can't even fight...T2 drones don't count since its dead before they react...thin easy to break tank...you can't get a more passive easy isk generating income when it comes to hulk bashing when that salvage and modules drop that easily replace the destroyers.
Now if you could just sign right here... |
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
53
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Posted - 2012.04.29 17:34:00 -
[66] - Quote
Remove 50% waste from datacore bpc's while you are at it. BPO owners have had their cake for too long. |
Vince Snetterton
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
88
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Posted - 2012.04.29 18:34:00 -
[67] - Quote
For those have not watched Soundwave in the Ten Ton Hammer interview, it gets even better. The idiot does not even have a clue how this this will impact the datacore market and ultimately invention / T2 costs. And he is quite proud of this. These are not my words, but his. Watch the interview.
In the interview, Soundwave paints a scenario, where the Caldari side of FW blows away the Gallente side. He then goes on to describe how this will cause an immense reduction of Gallente datacores available, and that the Eve player community will have to "get involved" with FW to rectify the situation.
So now we will have all these industrialist chars who need Gallente datacores either training PvP skills for their chars and organizing massive FW fleets to gain Gallente datacores, or paying people to fight in Gallente FW.
I am sure that industrialists will be thrilled to spend months training chars for FW PvP, and I am equally sure that it will be very cheap to hire merc corps to fight FW to generate said datacores. |
Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy Against ALL Authorities
5
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Posted - 2012.04.29 19:24:00 -
[68] - Quote
Urgg Boolean wrote: So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits? Well, I don't do that.
What are you talking about? When you buy a plex someone has paid CCP $15. It doesn't matter who redeems it for gametime. |
Duvida
The Scope Gallente Federation
67
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Posted - 2012.04.29 19:34:00 -
[69] - Quote
Zaerlorth Maelkor wrote:Urgg Boolean wrote: So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits? Well, I don't do that.
What are you talking about? When you buy a plex someone has paid CCP $15. It doesn't matter who redeems it for gametime.
Simply stated and precise. This is the point that many people miss about PLEX. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
215
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Posted - 2012.04.29 19:34:00 -
[70] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:For those have not watched Soundwave in the Ten Ton Hammer interview, it gets even better. The idiot does not even have a clue how this this will impact the datacore market and ultimately invention / T2 costs. And he is quite proud of this. These are not my words, but his. Watch the interview.
In the interview, Soundwave paints a scenario, where the Caldari side of FW blows away the Gallente side. He then goes on to describe how this will cause an immense reduction of Gallente datacores available, and that the Eve player community will have to "get involved" with FW to rectify the situation.
So now we will have all these industrialist chars who need Gallente datacores either training PvP skills for their chars and organizing massive FW fleets to gain Gallente datacores, or paying people to fight in Gallente FW.
I am sure that industrialists will be thrilled to spend months training chars for FW PvP, and I am equally sure that it will be very cheap to hire merc corps to fight FW to generate said datacores.
I already see alliances slicing the datacore cake. Finally T2 will become as expensive as intended. Look at T2 rigs, they should lead the way. EGD: If you jettison what's in your brain, at least expect can flipping. |
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TWHC Assistant
34
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Posted - 2012.04.29 21:02:00 -
[71] - Quote
So we should start hoarding datacores now instead of selling them. There is going to be another wave of market manipulations ... |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
1340
|
Posted - 2012.04.29 21:26:00 -
[72] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:
I am sure that industrialists will be thrilled to spend months training chars for FW PvP, and I am equally sure that it will be very cheap to hire merc corps to fight FW to generate said datacores.
Well - the market should fix that - as there will be decreased supply of e.g. gallente data cores, prices will increase and it will become very profitable to join gallente FW - it wont be necessary to hire mercs or do it yourself because people will relaize the insane profits that could be made and start fighting over it (provided they don't make it stealth-bomber PVE as it is now).
Generally I'd say T2 ships are way too expensive for what they offer currently, especially if you count in the far longer skill times.
Alliances bored of nullsec and joining FW to farm it could indeed become a problem though. You know... morons. |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
200
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Posted - 2012.04.29 21:26:00 -
[73] - Quote
You guys really underestimate the ability of all 4 militias to crash the market
Edit: and by crash I mean flood |
TWHC Assistant
34
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Posted - 2012.04.29 21:45:00 -
[74] - Quote
Super Chair wrote:You guys really underestimate the ability of all 4 militias to crash the market Edit: and by crash I mean flood Maybe, but why should the militias sell datacores unless the demand pushes the prices up? Faction ships and modules will continue to sell and serve as an income source. I am pretty sure some first speculators are buying datacores now, which alone will drive the prices up. |
Lictor Yeva
WoonGaffe
9
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Posted - 2012.04.30 07:35:00 -
[75] - Quote
Here's a question no-one asked.
What the **** does datacores and research really have to do with Militias and Faction Warfare? From an immersion point of view why do we take the research and development part of the game away from the people who trained R&D characters and give it to people who like to shoot things in low-sec?
This idea is stupid on so many different levels that it could only have come from CCP Soundwave. I loathe the day CCP hired that inept Goon and put him in charge of anything.
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TWHC Assistant
36
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Posted - 2012.04.30 10:37:00 -
[76] - Quote
Lictor Yeva wrote:Here's a question no-one asked.
What the **** does datacores and research really have to do with Militias and Faction Warfare? Each Empire faction has its technologies and with the different technologies come different datacores. Best is you check out each datacore and for what it is used. |
fgft Athonille
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
30
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Posted - 2012.04.30 10:49:00 -
[77] - Quote
id sell all your datacores now
fw is primarily an lp farming venture for all four factions. if you can get them from the lp store, the people with millions of horded lps will gush them all over the market. |
Arec Bardwin
Perkone Caldari State
360
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 14:35:00 -
[78] - Quote
Lictor Yeva wrote: What the **** does datacores and research really have to do with Militias and Faction Warfare? From an immersion point of view why do we take the research and development part of the game away from the people who trained R&D characters and give it to people who like to shoot things in low-sec?
This idea is stupid on so many different levels that it could only have come from CCP Soundwave. I loathe the day CCP hired that inept Goon and put him in charge of anything.
Pretty much this. |
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
114
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 16:20:00 -
[79] - Quote
i would like some kind of change for R&D stuff in the way of adding something a little more active at least int he way of the offerd R&D missions to something a bit more... well Sciencey. with perhaps a more involved mission that involves some sciencey things like hacking or acrcheology or collection of some kind of material from a special mission to bring back in order to give a decent boost to your RP points in that field and the missions would be specific to the research field and level of agent.
actually come to think of it maybe something to think of as a little extra for incarna when that comes out. |
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
117
|
Posted - 2012.04.30 18:46:00 -
[80] - Quote
Lictor Yeva wrote:Here's a question no-one asked.
What the **** does datacores and research really have to do with Militias and Faction Warfare? From an immersion point of view why do we take the research and development part of the game away from the people who trained R&D characters and give it to people who like to shoot things in low-sec?
This idea is stupid on so many different levels that it could only have come from CCP Soundwave. I loathe the day CCP hired that inept Goon and put him in charge of anything.
I have mentioned it before on these forums, but how does CCP Greyscale and CCP Soundwave have absolute and overriding authority to make massive changes to the game on their own personal whims while other aspects to this game like Walking In Stations are based around a team concept? Talk about a (potential) dysfunctional working environment at CCP. |
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Arec Bardwin
Perkone Caldari State
361
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 19:42:00 -
[81] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Peter Raptor wrote:CCP PHANTOM, why not some input on this topic from the Dev's side, we need some clarification from you guys on this important issue of datacore nerfing! I would pretty much like to comment on the questions here, but that wouldn't do any good to anyone since I do not know enough about these things right now. Instead I will inform people about this thread who are qualified to comment. A clarifying comment would be nice. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 20:02:00 -
[82] - Quote
Hearing about this I went around and redeemed most of my RP although not all. Its not worth 30 minutes of time to pick up cores worth 30 or 40 million.... it would really take 60 minutes but not with full atteniton.. enough attention though that it would impact the efficiency of what i was doing on the other sceens.
Datacores ARE NOT Passive income !
They passively accrue but they took one heck of a lot of hours to get going --- training skills (yest planning skill quues takes more than a few minutes and logging in and out of a character never takes me much less than 5 minutes.... but mostly building standing,, examining markets and determining the best agents I could get in a trade off with time building standing and value of the different types of cores.
That initial time and expensive of books and tags (maybe 50 to 100 milion depending on how many tags) needs to be prorated into future earnings but even more... after a few years, if you went once a year to pick your cores up and had maybe 1.5 billion worth acrooss say 7 characters, it would take you(its taken me) 10 hours to get all of those points redeemed and item safely (thats a trick in itself) transported to a major hub to sell them.
I'm actually only 7 hours in because it's tedious as all hell just paying 1/2 atttention and not autopiloting when i've got a 500 million load etc.... 100s and 100's of jumps.
Maybe this most recent activity as a stand alone (just picking up a years worth from various chars with various lvl research agents) maybe I've made 150 million an hour for this once a year privalage that caps at 10 hours.
Its not like some people don't have incursions dialed in or multiboxed and ble to earn in that vicinity from time to time.
I'm not arguing that the system is perfect nor am I arguing that I'm entitled to anything -- stuff gets nerfed sometimes and i'll lose..big deal
I would take issue with the notion of it being "passive income" though. A simple change capping maximum accumlated points at 6 months worth would drastically change things and might even make it not worth most long time players time to pick them up from many agents.
Good from the currrent system ? It was engaging for me to study the space map and markets , set a goal and achieve the goal of getting the little industry in place. The HOPE of Passive Income was alluring.. and that hope made for motivated game play. Along the way I saw different areas of space and learned about Criminal tags etc.. other depth to the environment.
Its not like its the #1 super neeatess neat part of the game.. but it is something that exists already and works ok and is different from other parts of the game and makes NPC standings relevant in a different way (nice to BUILD on NPC stuff, not dismantle whats in place and replace instead of adding).
So Tldr its not broken, its not passive.. it doesn't need much fixing unless its part of something really bitching. |
Super Chair
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
238
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 20:09:00 -
[83] - Quote
TWHC Assistant wrote:Super Chair wrote:You guys really underestimate the ability of all 4 militias to crash the market Edit: and by crash I mean flood Maybe, but why should the militias sell datacores unless the demand pushes the prices up? Faction ships and modules will continue to sell and serve as an income source. I am pretty sure some first speculators are buying datacores now, which alone will drive the prices up.
Militias will undercut eachother (within your own militia, too) to make sure their stuff sells. The price of datacores will go down after the patch. The only way I see datacore prices going up is if a militia loses a ton of systems/ability to fight and what not and can't meet demand. There isn't going to be some level of co-operation within a militia to limit supply of datacores, this is due to alts. The prices will drop. Fgft Athonille has it right, sell now. |
Carton Mantory
Occassus Republica Trade Wind Commodities
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.01 20:24:00 -
[84] - Quote
Super Chair wrote:TWHC Assistant wrote:Super Chair wrote:You guys really underestimate the ability of all 4 militias to crash the market Edit: and by crash I mean flood Maybe, but why should the militias sell datacores unless the demand pushes the prices up? Faction ships and modules will continue to sell and serve as an income source. I am pretty sure some first speculators are buying datacores now, which alone will drive the prices up. Militias will undercut eachother (within your own militia, too) to make sure their stuff sells. The price of datacores will go down after the patch. The only way I see datacore prices going up is if a militia loses a ton of systems/ability to fight and what not and can't meet demand. There isn't going to be some level of co-operation within a militia to limit supply of datacores, this is due to alts. The prices will drop. Fgft Athonille has it right, sell now.
Under this Charters should be going down |
Dini Mueter
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 08:39:00 -
[85] - Quote
What an incredibly stupid idea. Let me see if I have this right.
Datacores are being moved from people who specifically trained R&D skills and grinded R&D agent standings to be able accumulate them, to Factional Warfare, which has nothing to do with R&D and who didn't ask for this in the first place?
I foresee a ton of problems with this latest brainfart:
- As someone else already mentioned people trained R&D characters for datacore income, most of the time transferring fully R&D trained characters onto another active account. There is no other reason for these characters and they will be rendered useless by this change.
- Characters that aren't rendered useless by this change (which are those that were cross trained for other purposes, i.e. mains and multipurpose alts) will need to have skillpoints and standings reimbursed. It will be nearly impossible to draw a line and say which skills should be re-imbursed and which shouldn't. For instance would I have trained research lvl 5 and laboratory operation lvl 5 if I hadn't needed these for research project management? Would I have trained High Energy Physics level 5? Would I even have trained mechanic lvl 5 on a caldari toon if it wasn't a prerequisite for Mechanical Engineering?
- CCP will lose revenue, because no people will train additional characters for datacore mining. They are in essence shooting themselves in the foot here.
- A part of the EVE production chain will be drastically changed, which will in turn drastically impact the market.
- These people who formerly relied on this income will now have to earn ISK elsewhere, so those that do not ragequit will turn to other venues of ISK grinding, which will to some extent dilute these other venues.
This idea sucks on every possible level. I hope CCP will get off their high horse and respond to this thread, because as it stands I'm about ready to close down 2 of my accounts, and just run missions.
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Francisco Bizzaro
70
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Posted - 2012.05.02 09:31:00 -
[86] - Quote
Dini Mueter wrote:
- As someone else already mentioned people trained R&D characters for datacore income, most of the time transferring fully R&D trained characters onto another active account. There is no other reason for these characters and they will be rendered useless by this change.
Except you probably did earn a bit of effortless money from these characters, so that training time has probably paid for itself many times over.
I'm late to the passive ISK research game, so actually my training time hasn't paid for itself. Shrug. The game changes, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. It's like speculation on any market.
And we don't know enough about the details of the new system to know if anyone has actually "lost" yet. You may still be able to do something profitable with your research skills, it will probably just be less passive than cashing in datacores.
Quote:
- These people who formerly relied on this income will now have to earn ISK elsewhere, so those that do not ragequit will turn to other venues of ISK grinding, which will to some extent dilute these other venues.
Is that really a bad thing? You didn't have to do anything for this money except visit your research agents every couple of months. There was no gameplay involved. This broken mechanic could be replaced by CCP just topping everyone's wallet by 100MISK/month, it's about the same thing. Is having to play the game to earn ISK really such a bad idea?
Quote: This idea sucks on every possible level. I hope CCP will get off their high horse and respond to this thread, because as it stands I'm about ready to close down 2 of my accounts, and just run missions.
"You've nerfed the most boring mechanic in game so I'm going to get my revenge by bullheadedly focusing on the most boring alternative I can think of." Have fun with that. Loss to Eve = zero. |
Dini Mueter
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 09:56:00 -
[87] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Is that really a bad thing? You didn't have to do anything for this money except visit your research agents every couple of months. There was no gameplay involved. This broken mechanic could be replaced by CCP just topping everyone's wallet by 100MISK/month, it's about the same thing. Is having to play the game to earn ISK really such a bad idea?
Is that supposed to be funny or some poorly disguised troll attempt? Didn't have to do anything? I had to train characters for years, do months of standings grinding with agents, travel thousands of jumps around EVE to agents that are scattered all over the place, unable to AFK haul because of the value of the cargo.
Not to mention the initial ISK investment of roughly a billion and a half in each R&D character.
No, no, you're right. It's free and effortless ISK.
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Dini Mueter
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 10:30:00 -
[88] - Quote
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a R&D system that rewarded active playing higher than inactive accumulation. The current mechanic around this requires you to actually go to the agents location and do a mission, which will reward you with an extra days worth of research points.
My average R&D agents are about 20 jumps from eachother, so I'd have to travel 20 jumps to do a mission that pays out between 200k and 400k ISK worth of datacores. Nobody will do this.
If instead they made a mechanic like the one in PI, where you can access your planet from anywhere, it would be more feasible to actively work on your R&D characters. It wouldn't be hard to do, just some small interface that required some user input once pr. day to accelerate the research or prevent it from slowing down, like the readjustment of harvesting cycles on planets.
Hell, the problem with this FW idea is not that R&D agents are being nerfed. If they reduced the income by 50% I would still be running them... it'd take twice as long to get a return on investment, but I'm in this for the long haul. No, the problem is that instead of fixing the mechanic or coming up with some new content that can make it a more active endeavor, CCP just dumps it on FW and in the process screw over all the people who trained for R&D.
And frankly it's indicative of a strange new process going on at CCP. Rearranging content is not new content. The game was working fine with the old module names, the current skill training requirements for destroyers and battlecruisers and datacore mining. I could think of some actual broken stuff that might benefit from the resources put into cosmetics and needless rearrangement.
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Francisco Bizzaro
71
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Posted - 2012.05.02 10:35:00 -
[89] - Quote
Dini Mueter wrote:Francisco Bizzaro wrote:Is that really a bad thing? You didn't have to do anything for this money except visit your research agents every couple of months. There was no gameplay involved. This broken mechanic could be replaced by CCP just topping everyone's wallet by 100MISK/month, it's about the same thing. Is having to play the game to earn ISK really such a bad idea?
Is that supposed to be funny or some poorly disguised troll attempt? Didn't have to do anything? I had to train characters for years, do months of standings grinding with agents, travel thousands of jumps around EVE to agents that are scattered all over the place, unable to AFK haul because of the value of the cargo. Not to mention the initial ISK investment of roughly a billion and a half in each R&D character. Years? Months? Thousands of jumps? A billion and a half ISK per character??... I think you were doing it wrong. Anyhow, if you've really done thousands of jumps, you've been collecting datacores for quite some time and probably earned a tidy sum from them already.
Seriously, people trained research skills who have no interest in research. It's no surprise that they are closing the loophole that encouraged this.
The minute you work out the ISK that can be earned from datacores, you think to yourself: This mechanic is so dumb it verges on being an CCP-endorsed exploit. Should I bet some training time/standings grind on this, or will the datacore market crash soon, or will CCP realize the dumbness before it pays off?
If you've created a full-time career out of farming these things without having any other need for R&D skills or other source of income ... well, that is the saddest thing I've read on the forums today - and that includes having skimmed a page or two of "Goons need to save face". |
Dini Mueter
Incompatible Protocol Bittervet Mercenaries
5
|
Posted - 2012.05.02 10:55:00 -
[90] - Quote
Francisco Bizzaro wrote: Years? Months? Thousands of jumps? A billion and a half ISK per character??... I think you were doing it wrong. Anyhow, if you've really done thousands of jumps, you've been collecting datacores for quite some time and probably earned a tidy sum from them already.
Datacore mining takes around two years from you create the character until you actually see a return in the invested resources. If you wish to accelerate this, you need to watch the market and adjust your research to the most profitable cores, which are constantly fluctuating based on other developments in EVE, like the boost to hybrid turrets. As the agents are typically scattered far from each other, in different regions even, there is significant amounts of travel required to collect and sell your product. Also, I started this around 2 years ago, so yes, I'm about to break even on two of my characters and one of them have begun to net a small profit.
Francisco Bizzaro wrote: Seriously, people trained research skills who have no interest in research. It's no surprise that they are closing the loophole that encouraged this.
Oh, that may very well be. Just like people buy ships on the market that they have no interest in flying, just to resell them at a higher price. Or people that have no interest in producing T2 ships mine moon minerals. That argument has no merit in EVE whatsoever.
Francisco Bizzaro wrote: The minute you work out the ISK that can be earned from datacores, you think to yourself: This mechanic is so dumb it verges on being an CCP-endorsed exploit. Should I bet some training time/standings grind on this, or will the datacore market crash soon, or will CCP realize the dumbness before it pays off?
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say with this? If this was such an easy way of making ISK you'd think more people were doing it? Like all of EVE? The truth of it is that some of us had research characters from before the datacore system, trying our luck in the T2 BPO lottery. Some won big, others like me never won anything. Regardless, I did not suddenly jump onto an exploit bandwagon, I am following a natural progression of my research and production based characters, and decided to capitalize on it by creating extra alts to support that. This is no different than people training extra characters to assist with looting in missions or haul during mining operations.
Francisco Bizzaro wrote: If you've created a full-time career out of farming these things without having any other need for R&D skills or other source of income ... well, that is the saddest thing I've read on the forums today - and that includes having skimmed a page or two of "Goons need to save face".
I never said that I don't do any other R&D work. I am an industrialist at heart, and I do invention with some of my datacores, but regardless of that fact who made you the judge of what is the right way to play the game? It's obvious to anyone reading your posts that you know little to nothing about industry in EVE, so why would you come here and troll in a thread about datacores?
Any other non-arguments you wanna throw at us while you're trolling?
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