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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.02.28 23:25:00 -
[1]
Assault frigates, as lovely as they are, seem to be slightly misfortunate when compared to each other.
I tried a basic pvp setup on all of them using the following rules in no particular order: - mwd - damage mod - scrambler + webber - EHP - no rigs
My results (not gonna post the exact fittings here) has dps varying between 60 and 230 and EHP from 5000 to 8800.
I managed to follow my rules for basically all the ships (mwd + scrambler in case of 2 mid slots and just mwd for retribution)
The results from this fitting challenge are that AF effectiveness varies a LOT (almost 4x difference in dps) and 90% difference in EHP.
Feel free to smack me down or tell me im doing it wrong - but here are the stats anyway (in order of DPS): Vengence: DPS 64 - EHP 8500 Hawk: dps 67 - EHP 5000 Jag: dps 127 - EHP 8800 Wolf: dps 165 - EHP 8150 Retribution: dps 167 - EHP 8000 Harpy: dps 175 - EHP 6400 Enyo: dps 200 - EHP 7000 Ishkur: dps 230 - EHP 5900 . |
Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.02.28 23:30:00 -
[2]
There is a viable setup for a blaster harpy with mwd and medium shield extender...but I'll let you eft warrior that.
Originally by: CCP Nozh prices T3. goal around the price of tech 2 cruisers
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Kirzath
Sinister Elite Stargate Experiment 626
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Posted - 2009.03.01 00:16:00 -
[3]
You're doing something wrong with the Vengeance, it gets 100 DPS without damage mods using Rage rockets. Also, some AFs are better at active tanking than buffer tanking.
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.03.01 00:19:00 -
[4]
Your figures say very little.
By your comparison the Harpy would be quite average at best, when it is in fact the best (yes I said it) AF operating above scrambler range.
There are several other factors that make a ship attractive, for instance its speed, cost, number of medium slots, cap recharge and fitting capabilities.
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Terminus Vindictus
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Posted - 2009.03.01 00:24:00 -
[5]
I can get 162 DPS/6300 EHP out of my Jag, and 209 DPS/6200 EHP out of my Wolf unrigged. That's with my skills, not 'All V'.
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.03.01 00:29:00 -
[6]
I know you can get different setups for better results for individual ships - but from the fitting rules I set those were the results. If you can refit any ship for better results by not abiding to the rules you can do so for all the other ones too.
and I didnt use t2/faction ammo.. t1 ammo for all. So higer dps vengence with rage rockets means higher damage for the other AFs too.
the end result is the same... the difference between AF effectiveness is HUGE . |
gpfault
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.03.01 00:29:00 -
[7]
Post the fits you're using. This thread is completely useless without them.
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Terminus Vindictus
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Posted - 2009.03.01 00:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ravenal I know you can get different setups for better results for individual ships - but from the fitting rules I set those were the results. If you can refit any ship for better results by not abiding to the rules you can do so for all the other ones too.
and I didnt use t2/faction ammo.. t1 ammo for all. So higer dps vengence with rage rockets means higher damage for the other AFs too.
I followed your fitting rules, so that's not an issue. As for ammo, why wouldn't you use T2/faction ammo in PvP? That should be a baseline assumption going in.
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2009.03.01 01:11:00 -
[9]
It's a given that missile DPS is crap compared to turrets (let alone the drone dps for the ishkur), but raw DPS isn't everything either.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.03.01 01:45:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Terminus Vindictus
I followed your fitting rules, so that's not an issue. As for ammo, why wouldn't you use T2/faction ammo in PvP? That should be a baseline assumption going in.
dude, its relative. If I use T1 for all the fits it comes out the same as if I used faction/t2 for all the fits.
And no, the thread is not useless without the fits I got. The fitting rules I followed should give you SIMILAR results.
Thats what its all about, similarity. The difference when abiding by "basic" fitting rules is to great to say that it is the result of the fits I chose.
Again ... its about relativity and a baseline. . |
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Terminus Vindictus
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Posted - 2009.03.01 02:58:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ravenal
and I didnt use t2/faction ammo.. t1 ammo for all. So higer dps vengence with rage rockets means higher damage for the other AFs too.
OK, fine, but even with T1 ammo the Vengeance gets over 100 DPS, again using your fitting rules, so your numbers still don't make sense. Yes there's a difference in the different AFs, but it's not as HUGE as you make it seem. Some AFs have higher DPS but lower EHP, others the opposite, and others still are somewhere in the middle. It's not all about having equal DPS. You DO know that, right? The balance doesn't stop at just DPS...
This thread is quickly losing my interest without seeing your fittings.
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.03.01 04:51:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Terminus Vindictus
This thread is quickly losing my interest without seeing your fittings.
oh no!
if you note that simply fitting t2 rocket launchers with t1 rockets and one ballistic control t2 you get a dps of 80 - you'll have cpu problems though unless you go faction.
Yes, with rage rockets you get dps of 100, the ishkur will have 250 with void and the enyo 230 ... and thats without fitting problems using only ion blasters.
Again, this is RELATIVE ... sheesh . |
Icarus Flame
Amarr The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.03.01 06:44:00 -
[13]
Your point is TOTALLY moot though, because it fails to acknowledge that people do anything other than fit their AF's with T2 mods and T1 ammo - going for an EHP fit while using 1 damage mod. That's ridiculous.
The Vengeance, for example. With a dual rep cap injected fit, this sucker can active tank 200 sustained dps. It's own dps is around 70, which obviously sucks, but one could easily rig for rocket damage. Etc. The Retribution is useless with only one mid, although in your "test" its 5 low slots allow it to perform admirably. The Harpy with Merin's phenomenal railgun fitting gets decent dps and not exactly perfect EHP. But the fact that it can perma-orbit at 17km means that what EHP it has goes a long way. Etc.
Furthermore, most AF's are viable with an afterburner fitting. I wouldn't stick a MWD on an active tanking vengeance, for example. Your EFT test is totally worthless, and proves absolutely nothing.
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.03.01 07:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Icarus Flame Your point is TOTALLY moot though, because it fails to acknowledge that people do anything other than fit their AF's with T2 mods and T1 ammo - going for an EHP fit while using 1 damage mod. That's ridiculous.
The Vengeance, for example. With a dual rep cap injected fit, this sucker can active tank 200 sustained dps. It's own dps is around 70, which obviously sucks, but one could easily rig for rocket damage. Etc. The Retribution is useless with only one mid, although in your "test" its 5 low slots allow it to perform admirably. The Harpy with Merin's phenomenal railgun fitting gets decent dps and not exactly perfect EHP. But the fact that it can perma-orbit at 17km means that what EHP it has goes a long way. Etc.
Furthermore, most AF's are viable with an afterburner fitting. I wouldn't stick a MWD on an active tanking vengeance, for example. Your EFT test is totally worthless, and proves absolutely nothing.
You do have a point. You can achieve good results with specialized fit for each of the AF.
I have a different point, which you acknowledge as worthless. That might be true, I am just providing an observation that IF you want to web and scramble, get decent damage and hopefully avoid dying too fast (this is NOT specializing) the AVERAGE ability of AF differ widely.
... which again might be a worthless point, but meh... there is the challenge part of the thread title isn't it? . |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.03.01 08:57:00 -
[15]
Because EVE combat is about 2 numbers and 2 numbers alone.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Nian Banks
Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2009.03.01 09:41:00 -
[16]
I find the subject and body of this thread to be worthless and a waste of data.
The way you compare each AF is flawed and unrealistic.
Your arguments are childish as is your reasoning.
If you wish to compare AF's and their capabilities, then I would suggest you look for what would be considered the A-Typical fit for each, then give their DPS + EHP + Abilities. The Abilities are extremely important tho can not be quantified in numbers. That's your problem, you expect each AF to do exactly the same thing I.e. Raw DPS + Tank and YOUR list of mandatory modules. This is not what eve is and thus is why we have 8 different AF's? Different may I remind you means NOT THE SAME.
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Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2009.03.01 11:36:00 -
[17]
I really don't see what you're all rabbling about; the OP states the obvious, nothing more:
Quote: Vengence: DPS 64 - EHP 8500 Hawk: dps 67 - EHP 5000 Jag: dps 127 - EHP 8800 Wolf: dps 165 - EHP 8150 Retribution: dps 167 - EHP 8000 Harpy: dps 175 - EHP 6400 Enyo: dps 200 - EHP 7000 Ishkur: dps 230 - EHP 5900
All this list really tells us is:
Minnie AFs rock Rockets suck Blasters do lots of paper damage Armor is better on paper
Again, we can tick the bottom two off this list and we're left with: Small Minmatar ships are good, rocket ships are bad. Not exactly a ground-breaking theory... -
Originally by: The Cuckoo Good luck in defending idiotic and greedy noobs, as far as I'm concerned, you are their champion.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:14:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 01/03/2009 12:14:49 Harpy: MWD + Disruptor + MSE II + 2xDamage Mod = Win
Forget the web and scram, use range. EVE is not entielry short range ;P
Any other AF is not as good imo as the Harpy.
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Isilwen Nightfall
Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:21:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 01/03/2009 12:14:49 Harpy: MWD + Disruptor + MSE II + 2xDamage Mod = Win
how the hell can you fit that? o_O ---
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Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:24:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Isilwen Nightfall
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 01/03/2009 12:14:49 Harpy: MWD + Disruptor + MSE II + 2xDamage Mod = Win
how the hell can you fit that? o_O
[Harpy, MSE] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Medium Shield Extender II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200 Warp Disruptor II
75mm Gatling Rail II, Antimatter Charge S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Antimatter Charge S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Antimatter Charge S 75mm Gatling Rail II, Antimatter Charge S Standard Missile Launcher II, Sabretooth Light Missile
[empty rig slot] [empty rig slot]
---
Originally by: 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts
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Isilwen Nightfall
Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:27:00 -
[21]
ah well, 75mm railz.
:P ---
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Isilwen Nightfall ah well, 75mm railz.
:P
75mm Rails work well, if setup right, same damge as 125mm but better tracking.
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TimMc
Gallente Extradition
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:36:00 -
[23]
Rockets need love?
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:37:00 -
[24]
Originally by: TimMc Rockets need love?
They do. :P. Too low base damge to be really viable :(
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rubico1337
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Posted - 2009.03.01 12:42:00 -
[25]
maybe im dumb, but why would you put a MWD on an AF if you are intending to get into scram range?
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.01 13:04:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 01/03/2009 13:04:38
Originally by: rubico1337 maybe im dumb, but why would you put a MWD on an AF if you are intending to get into scram range?
Well, to actually ge tinto range. If you got an AB, and any other ship an MWD, you are just being silly :) Might as well fly a Mining Barge in combat :P
An AF can got faster then cruisrs with MWD, and thus close distance and keep them pinned down easily.
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Zephyr Rengate
Caldari Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.03.01 14:46:00 -
[27]
Your setups must have sucked ass.
Get the hell off this forum tbh.
Also MWD is not always required for AFs
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.01 14:50:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Your setups must have sucked ass.
Get the hell off this forum tbh.
Also MWD is not always required for AFs
AB AF's are pretty much fail tbh.
As Merins syas, comedy kill mails.
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Zephyr Rengate
Caldari Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.03.01 14:53:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate Your setups must have sucked ass.
Get the hell off this forum tbh.
Also MWD is not always required for AFs
AB AF's are pretty much fail tbh.
As Merins syas, comedy kill mails.
You and Merin pretty much fail tbh.
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Kingwood
Amarr Defile.
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Posted - 2009.03.01 15:03:00 -
[30]
OP is troll?
Apparently Eve PvP is all about DPS and EHP.
Also, fit Vengeance with blasters, not rockets.
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.03.01 15:12:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Psiri on 01/03/2009 15:12:38
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs AB AF's are pretty much fail tbh.
AB AF's are alive and kicking, there are ways to work around the dangers of being tackled by ships that operate above scrambler range. I wouldn't ever trade my AB fits over a craptastic low dps ship like the rail harpy. The Blarpy sucks and the rail harpy should be able to land a nice kill/loss ratio, but it can only take on a quite limited set of targets.
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Laedy
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2009.03.01 15:13:00 -
[32]
I find Afterburner/scram AF's (I fly the ishkur) works great TBH.
Never had much problems getting into range, use the scram to cut the other ship's mwd and orbit really close. The low sig radius is the main bonus of using an AB instead of mwd, plus you get more room to fit an active tank too.
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.03.01 15:40:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Psiri on 01/03/2009 15:40:04
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 01/03/2009 13:04:38
Originally by: rubico1337 maybe im dumb, but why would you put a MWD on an AF if you are intending to get into scram range?
Well, to actually ge tinto range. If you got an AB, and any other ship an MWD, you are just being silly :) Might as well fly a Mining Barge in combat :P
An AF can got faster then cruisrs with MWD, and thus close distance and keep them pinned down easily.
Close range mwd ships work fine, especially versus other frigates. That being said I'll jump an mwd fit (long range or close range) anyday of the week in my AB fit.
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Ka Jolo
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.03.02 02:50:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ravenal The fitting rules I followed should give you SIMILAR results.
I dispute this premise.
In EVE, each racial line of ships is meant to have strengths and weaknesses in relation to the other lines, not to be similar. Thus Minmatar ships are fast, Gallente ships like point-blank range, Caldari ships excel in PvE and gang combat but suffer in solo PvP, etc. Some tactics call for a ship with a powerful active tank, some for a ship with face-melting DPS. This is what lends EVE its variety and much of its attraction.
A blaster Enyo, for example, may out-DPS another ship--but that EFT DPS may never become a factor if the target is able to apply its inferior DPS from outside the Enyo's range. Some AF's are better for taking on frigates, others shine when fighting cruisers. Pilots must choose to sacrifice one or more tactical element in order to maximize one or more others; they may fit an AB instead of a MWD, for example, in order to stabilize their cap and fit better mods elsewhere.
Much better to talk about what AF's are best for what--because some clearly are--than to talk about how they aren't similar. Solo PvP? Killing bigger ships? Anti-drone? Heavy tackle? Sniping? Missions? Different scenarios call for different ships. Even then, however, AF's are not similar in that they do not all have an equal number of relevant situations in which they shine. So yeah, there may be some nerfs or buffs coming. I just hope the developers are more sophisticated than to simply compare a cookie-cutter set of modules for all AF's in the process.
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Smokeyblood
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Posted - 2009.03.02 03:05:00 -
[35]
So whats a decent ishkur setup and what kind of ships are you going to take down with it?
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.03.02 04:17:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ka Jolo
Originally by: Ravenal The fitting rules I followed should give you SIMILAR results.
I dispute this premise.
In EVE, each racial line of ships is meant to have strengths and weaknesses in relation to the other lines, not to be similar. Thus Minmatar ships are fast, Gallente ships like point-blank range, Caldari ships excel in PvE and gang combat but suffer in solo PvP, etc. Some tactics call for a ship with a powerful active tank, some for a ship with face-melting DPS. This is what lends EVE its variety and much of its attraction.
Very true - my baseline might be wrong, said that before. I did have some problems coming up with a baseline... the AB/MWD dispute (I'm a big fan of AB) ... dam mod or not because for tackling DPS isn't that high on the priority list ... unless you are going solo or small gang.
Yes, each race has its role but the AF as a type "should" have some similarities. Seeing the hilarious damage of the vengeance and hawk when using their BONUS compared to almost any other AF is just sad. You'd think as a developer of sub par merchandise you'd do something to get back into the competition.
Quote: Again, we can tick the bottom two off this list and we're left with: Small Minmatar ships are good, rocket ships are bad. Not exactly a ground-breaking theory...
Yeah, there was this discussion a while back (last summer or something) about AF respec/rebalance. And here I am thinking why hasn't anything happened? This being as obvious as you seem to be stating and all.
oh, and stating the obvious again... hint hint to unbelievers of the message of this thread. . |
The Ratface
Hunters Imperiale
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Posted - 2009.03.02 04:33:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kingwood Also, fit Vengeance with blasters, not rockets.
quoting for truth
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Corstaad
Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2009.03.02 06:49:00 -
[38]
I end up killing any AF but a max Ishkur. Doesn't mean I fit wrong or played wrong its just a beast.
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2009.03.02 07:39:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ravenal Wolf: dps 165 - EHP 8150
that is quite low for dps. 2 dmg mods + dcu + plate = win
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Ig Neus
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Posted - 2009.03.02 11:11:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Smokeyblood So whats a decent ishkur setup and what kind of ships are you going to take down with it?
I do not even fly an Ishkur these days but... 3 Ions II, small NoS AB II, Web II, Scrambler II SAR II, Reactive Plating II, DCU II Warriors II
It is going to take down any Frigate that gets into scramble range for sure and a good amount of cruisers as well. Need some skills, both game sps and controling ones ;p
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TimMc
Gallente Extradition
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Posted - 2009.03.02 11:16:00 -
[41]
Originally by: The Ratface
Originally by: Kingwood Also, fit Vengeance with blasters, not rockets.
quoting for truth
Some very sad truth. Rockets need to get their damage doubled, and Vengence needs second bonus of 5% bonus to RoF of rockets.
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Ravenal
The Fated E.Y
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Posted - 2009.03.02 13:07:00 -
[42]
Originally by: TimMc Some very sad truth. Rockets need to get their damage doubled, and Vengence needs second bonus of 5% bonus to RoF of rockets.
Oh no! please... not rof. I know that ups the dps but they empty the launchers fast enough already (double or triple the amount of rockets the launchers can hold - then its ok to give ROF bonus)
velocity or flight time bonus would be awesome - as well as rocket base damage increase. . |
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