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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2009.02.20 02:19:00 -
[1]
It's pretty embarrassing when they can't even do their jobs against ONE battleship with a t1 sensor booster. Stop, hammer time. |
Gram Hellfire
Capital Ships Inc. Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.02.20 02:26:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Gram Hellfire on 20/02/2009 02:26:13 ohnoes! crap fittings don't work on bigger ships!
Furthermore, already is a legitimate word!
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2009.02.20 02:34:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Gram Hellfire Edited by: Gram Hellfire on 20/02/2009 02:26:13 ohnoes! crap fittings don't work on bigger ships!
Furthermore, already is a legitimate word!
Not my ship, but 2 sensor damps with range scripts can't even bring a single sensor boosted BS to under 30 km.... pvp more or try EFT at the least before spewing crap.
A curse can tracking disrupt and neut a BS to hell.
A falcon can perma jam a BS to hell.
A rapier can web a BS to REALLY slow speeds.
But a fully bonused arazu with two t2 damps with range scripts can barely reduce the targeting range below their scram range? How is that right? Stop, hammer time. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.20 02:41:00 -
[4]
tackling a battleship with near invulnerability isn't any good?
/me goes to eft and checks arazu vs abaddon.
well 23.83km lock range with all level 5, and gang bonuses, and t2 sensor booster with range script, with 3 t2 damps and lock range. 21.67km lock range with no gang bonuses, 13.54km with no sensor booster. 45km damp optimal and 48km point range that gives the arazu quite a bit of room to mess up a bit.
need to train my damp skills and medium hybrid skills. mmmm recon 5
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MidnightMartyr
Gallente NailorTech Industries Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.20 05:29:00 -
[5]
You may want to try 3 Damps... it works much better. Recons, after all, DO have a very big E-war focus. I fly my arazu on roams and it works just fine for me. You just have to know how to use it.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.20 06:11:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Gram Hellfire Edited by: Gram Hellfire on 20/02/2009 02:26:13 ohnoes! crap fittings don't work on bigger ships!
Furthermore, already is a legitimate word!
A rapier can web a BS to REALLY slow speeds.
But a fully bonused arazu with two t2 damps with range scripts can barely reduce the targeting range below their scram range? How is that right?
No, not really. A slow battleship doesn't tank any worse than a fast battleship, sig radius is still the same unless you fit dual webs + target painter (3 Slots!)
So, try 3 damps, and tell us how that works for you. ------------
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.02.20 06:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton tackling a battleship with near invulnerability isn't any good?
Well yeah it's great that you are invulnerable to that one BS while focusing all three of your damps on it. Not so great if that BS has friends since you have to operate within 40-45km.
Rapier and Falcon both operate from farther away and can disable multiple ships at the same time. Arazu? Only one. Pilgrim operates much closer, but it can actually fit a decent tank and can still negate multiple opponents. Arazu? Still only one and no tank to speak of.
Arazu sucks for anything other than ganking a solo victim with multiple ships. Not a terribly fantastic role there. It really needs it's damps boosted so it can negate multiple opponents like it used to be able to.
Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
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Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.20 07:38:00 -
[8]
pssst... resolution script + ecm ... dont tell any1
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Tefkros
The Dead Pod Society Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.20 07:42:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Tefkros on 20/02/2009 07:43:33
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Gram Hellfire Edited by: Gram Hellfire on 20/02/2009 02:26:13 ohnoes! crap fittings don't work on bigger ships!
Furthermore, already is a legitimate word!
Not my ship, but 2 sensor damps with range scripts can't even bring a single sensor boosted BS to under 30 km.... pvp more or try EFT at the least before spewing crap.
A curse can tracking disrupt and neut a BS to hell.
A falcon can perma jam a BS to hell.
A rapier can web a BS to REALLY slow speeds.
But a fully bonused arazu with two t2 damps with range scripts can barely reduce the targeting range below their scram range? How is that right?
Let-¦s elaborate on how may levels the OP fails:
Your fully bonused Arazu (I assume you mean Recons V), with only 2 phased dampeners, will bring a t2 sensor booster Abaddon to 32.5km lock range, while it can scram from 44km with a normal t2 disruptor. That-¦t with all lvl 5 skills. With more mainstream skills (like mine that I-¦m not trained too well in damps), it can damp it to 39.4km with only TWO dampeners, completely ignoring the fact that it can easily fit 3 to be completely safe. Why would you want to use a recon that has scram range bonuses to under 30km?
Let-¦s see what happens to the amazing other recons you speak of. A Rapier with any number of webs, will web that BS. If it stays at his bonused range, the BS has 2 choices: 1. Load Scorch, deploy sentries, in general **** the Rapier in the face, or 2.warp out. If the Rapier chooses to be a hero and come in tackle range, which incidentally happens to be withing heavy neut range, you have one overpowered recon right there!
The Curse. It can neut and TD to it-¦s heart content from bonused range, until said BS decides to 1. Shoot missiles 2. Warp off. If the Curse decides to be a hero and come in tackle range, you have another dead overpowered recon in your hands
The Falcon. It can permajam the BS from 200km. Wow. Next!
So far, for solo work, the Gallente recons are the only one that can most reliably tackle a target and keep it there with the greatest safely margin, well outside heavy neut range.
Are you talking about fleet battle slugfests with BS, where you assume the Gallente recons won-¦t provide any benefit to the gang? With a primary webbed by the rest of the gang, neuted and blasted at point blank, neither your dampeners (oh wait, scal resolution maybe to buy your gang some time?), nor the Curses TDs and neuts or the Rapiers webs will amount to much.
How about the day when your gang faces another gang with dual or triple Guradians, ECCM-¦d to the ears with 100+ signal strength? Falcons will tickle them, Curses must be in multiples to do any harm to dual Guardian caps, Rapiers will web them for no purpose at all, but a SINGLE USELESS LACHESIS THAT COSTS 50 MILLION COZ IT SUX will bring a Guardian and any other logistics ship to 30km lock range with a single damp. I-¦ll let your imagination do the math and predict what happens after that.
Put a 1600mm plate on that gallente recon and you have a buffer as nice as any of the other recons, unless of course you want to nitpick to prove how wrong I am.
Bottom line: If you want to use a single recon ship to wander around like an idiot wanting to shoot anything you encounter , you are doing it very wrong. They all have very specific roles that may or may not work in every situation. And if you put your brain to work sometimes, you will see that the 4 races-¦ recons complement each other amazingly well.
Lachesis+Curse+Huginn+[Falcon if you suck too much]+ long range DPS ships (Cerbs, Ishtars, Zealots). There you go, perfect immunity. Target gets webbed, scrammed, neuted, TD and damped from 40km and pounded from 100. Nerf gangs, eh?
Take your own advice and pvp more, because you seem to not have any clue about what your ships can and should do.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.02.20 07:49:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Perry pssst... resolution script + ecm ... dont tell any1
And why should they use Falcon+Arazu if they can use Falcon+Falcon?
IMHO Arazus have really lost it. Damps relied on that dual effect to work, and they simply don't have it anymore. As such the Arazu is relegated to very particular situations. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
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Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.20 08:04:00 -
[11]
Well two Falcons have negative DPS... where as a falcon and an arazu can try to kill something. Add more Recons and you can even gank tanked targets. Dont compare an arazu to a deimos. Compare it to the other force recons and fit blasters and hammerhead II. Arazu has massive dps for its class. The faclon jams, the arzu makes sure missed cycles dont mean instadeath. Its a synergy. I know, doesnt fit into your min/max ideology.
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Tefkros
The Dead Pod Society Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.20 08:08:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Perry pssst... resolution script + ecm ... dont tell any1
And why should they use Falcon+Arazu if they can use Falcon+Falcon?
Because 1. Not everyone trains for a Falcon alt , 2. An Arazu may put a hostile Falcon out of the fight more reliably than another Falcon will, 3. An Arazu can disable MWDs from 20km away and 4. Some people prefer to have fun, use their situational awareness and tactics instead of sitting like monkeys jamming people, then jerking off because "they won".
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.02.20 08:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tefkros
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Perry pssst... resolution script + ecm ... dont tell any1
And why should they use Falcon+Arazu if they can use Falcon+Falcon?
Because 1. Not everyone trains for a Falcon alt , 2. An Arazu may put a hostile Falcon out of the fight more reliably than another Falcon will, 3. An Arazu can disable MWDs from 20km away and 4. Some people prefer to have fun, use their situational awareness and tactics instead of sitting like monkeys jamming people, then jerking off because "they won".
1. If you can fly an arazu effectively you're perhaps 1 month away from being able to fly a falcon effectively. 2. Reliably? Depends on the particular situation. Between roughly 30 and 70 km. Yes. Outside that, no. Not really. 3. That is a point. Seems like a rather limited point for a ship though considering the Arazus lack of tank. 4. I made the argument strictly from a min-maxing perspective. However, that doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with it as a player. Game balance however is often a matter of min-maxing. Should game balance favor a boring min-maxing playstyle? Should players be penalized for having fun?
Perry: I'm not a min-maxer. It seems sad however that the damping aspect of the arazu is in the state it is. The Arazu used to be overpowered, but the nerf (removing the dual effect of damps completely) was way overboard. I used to have a lot of fun with arazus in the gang (or fighting against arazus). These days it's either arazus only decloaking when they have total superiority (and the ganked being pretty much in a "sit there and die" situation) or arazus getting pulverized. No in-between give&take situations. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.02.20 08:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tefkros Because 1. Not everyone trains for a Falcon alt , 2. An Arazu may put a hostile Falcon out of the fight more reliably than another Falcon will, 3. An Arazu can disable MWDs from 20km away and 4. Some people prefer to have fun, use their situational awareness and tactics instead of sitting like monkeys jamming people, then jerking off because "they won".
For somebody that doesn't fly an Arazu much, you seem to have some pretty interesting opinions about them. I would suggest you actually try taking one into a gang combat (ie. multiple opponents) and then offer an opinion.
Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
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Tefkros
The Dead Pod Society Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.20 09:27:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Tefkros on 20/02/2009 09:34:53 Edited by: Tefkros on 20/02/2009 09:31:17
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Originally by: Tefkros Because 1. Not everyone trains for a Falcon alt , 2. An Arazu may put a hostile Falcon out of the fight more reliably than another Falcon will, 3. An Arazu can disable MWDs from 20km away and 4. Some people prefer to have fun, use their situational awareness and tactics instead of sitting like monkeys jamming people, then jerking off because "they won".
For somebody that doesn't fly an Arazu much, you seem to have some pretty interesting opinions about them. I would suggest you actually try taking one into a gang combat (ie. multiple opponents) and then offer an opinion.
Maybe I will, when the ones that don-¦t fly Curses and Rapiers stop commenting on how better they are than the Arazus until they fly them in actual combat against multiple opponents.
But then again, when we take an Arazu into a gang (yes I have friends who know how to use them), we know their purpose, and the rest coordinate based each on others-¦ abilities and weaknesses. So refrain from your trite comments, because a ship in a gang that only it-¦s pilot knows what it can do, is a useless and more often than not, dead ship.
Maybe all the Arazu/Lachesis pilots can offer some insight on the first post I made on this thread instead of dropping abstract comments on post of lesser significance?
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.02.20 09:44:00 -
[16]
Change the Damp bonus to +10% strength & falloff per level. Problem solved, along with a number of other problems.
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Pac SubCom
A.W.M
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Posted - 2009.02.20 09:50:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Pac SubCom on 20/02/2009 09:53:55
Originally by: Tefkros 2. An Arazu may put a hostile Falcon out of the fight more reliably than another Falcon will
If you fit for the task, you can neutralize two or three Falcons with a Gallente recon depending on positioning. [Under perfect conditions you can neuter one Falcon per med slot, that is if they all line up 80 km away and have no sensor boosters, a Lachesis can take seven Falcons out of the fight quite reliably.]
Information warfare between Caldari and Gallente recons is the pinnacle of what an EW specialist can encounter in Eve imo (no disrespect for the disruption and painter community). Gallente recons can give a good account of themselves there. To bad that so few seem to be aware that information warfare of this kind exists. --------------- ∞ TQFE
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.02.20 10:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tefkros Maybe all the Arazu/Lachesis pilots can offer some insight on the first post I made on this thread instead of dropping abstract comments on post of lesser significance?
Wouldn't be a whole lot of point to doing that. Your first post merely restated what had already pointed out (arazus rule at tackling a solo opponent). Then followed with an attempt to justify the Arazu by proposing a rather silly scenario (3 Guardians with no BSs?). To be honest, your second post was infinitely more significant (if somewhat ignorant).
Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
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market mime
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Posted - 2009.02.20 10:22:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff For somebody that doesn't fly an Arazu much, you seem to have some pretty interesting opinions about them. I would suggest you actually try taking one into a gang combat (ie. multiple opponents) and then offer an opinion.
LOL, all the recons have trouble with multiple opponents.. thats their one major weakness. If your piloting skills suck.. yes you are going to lose a lot of gallente recons.
Also stop comparing arazu to falcon as an argument for buffing arazu, compared to the falcon ALL the other recon ships, t2 cruisers, t2 bcs and battleships suck. They need to be nerfed, not everything else buffed. If anything this should be a "buff minmatar recons!" thread (from someone who can't and will never fly them).
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Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.02.20 10:26:00 -
[20]
gal recons are fine. they were already fixed.
falcons are the ones that are broken. they will be brought in line soon enough.
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TimMc
Gallente Extradition
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Posted - 2009.02.20 10:42:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia gal recons are fine. they were already fixed.
falcons are the ones that are broken. they will be brought in line soon enough.
Sorry to say it, but this.
Once ECM is nerfed, people will start using damps as much as ECM.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.02.20 11:11:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Perry pssst... resolution script + ecm ... dont tell any1
And why should they use Falcon+Arazu if they can use Falcon+Falcon?
This. Oh, I've suggested using Arazu as a "Falcon booster" to our guys. The answer is always "you're better off just bringing two Falcons". And you know what? They are right.
Damps are too weak at the moment to compete on any meaningful level. If ECM is nerfed then the ballgame may change, but that the moment... meh. Lachesis with the 7 mids and good scan res makes a decent lowsec fast tackler, but that's about it. Arazu... don't bother undocking.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.02.20 11:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: Perry pssst... resolution script + ecm ... dont tell any1
And why should they use Falcon+Arazu if they can use Falcon+Falcon?
This. Oh, I've suggested using Arazu as a "Falcon booster" to our guys. The answer is always "you're better off just bringing two Falcons". And you know what? They are right.
Damps are too weak at the moment to compete on any meaningful level. If ECM is nerfed then the ballgame may change, but that the moment... meh. Lachesis with the 7 mids and good scan res makes a decent lowsec fast tackler, but that's about it. Arazu... don't bother undocking.
Oh the irony. The only real use would be to place it on one of those huge gates, with a decent faciton(read: Domination) warp disruptor and let it utilize a bunch of sensor boosters and pick off those that spawn far off. Generally high:0.0 gates.
The Arazu is a very good boat in fact, as long as you entirely ignore it's damping uses and factor the fact that it's underestimated by just about everyone.
All things said, Apocrypha brings what I like to consider the best executed damp boost I've seen in history of EVE. If it pans out well, I yet again salute you CCP. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 140648
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.
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Posted - 2009.02.20 11:27:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Perry pssst... resolution script + ecm ... dont tell any1
Chance based and wtf do you do, 50 jumps into hostile 0.0 when your ecm drones are dead.
You use targetting range, period. But yah, OP fails for using 2 damps, that's quite tragic. If you have multiple hostiles and you need to damp more than one.. you are the one chosing when to decloak. And noone stops you from using a disruptor. Assuming you use 2 damps, I guess you fight multiple targets, which means you probably are there with friends (you got low damage anyway). Then let your friends use the scrambler, while you use the disruptor.
I fly my dual recon team like that. Arazu with 4 damps, damp rigs, and disruptor. Pilgrim with faction scrambler and faction web (to get outside 10km). If I face two targets, I damp one to hell and back and nuke the other. Then Pilgrim is safe to go just outside 10km to scramble.
That's another reason to fit MWD on the Arazu as well, make sure you can stay at range. The AB-fits with scrambler is damn fun when you can permalock a target, because yah, you get invulnerable. But then make yourself vulnerable to sensorboosters, gatecamps, etc..
It's not like you're painted into a corner and forced to fly one fit, is it?
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2009.02.20 14:45:00 -
[25]
Name one other recon that ABSOLUTELY needs 3 ewar modules to counter ONE t1 module on the target?
ECM? Two racials at most take care of the target most of the time, even when it fits a t1 ECCM
Webs? Two webs take care of most everything except the extreme cases.
Neuts? Yeah, 2 medium neuts are nasty on a bonused amarr recon.
Again, I don't fly this ship and it's a damn shame it can't be useful.. Stop, hammer time. |
Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.02.20 14:48:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Gram Hellfire Edited by: Gram Hellfire on 20/02/2009 02:26:13 ohnoes! crap fittings don't work on bigger ships!
Furthermore, already is a legitimate word!
Not my ship, but 2 sensor damps with range scripts can't even bring a single sensor boosted BS to under 30 km.... pvp more or try EFT at the least before spewing crap.
A curse can tracking disrupt and neut a BS to hell.
A falcon can perma jam a BS to hell.
A rapier can web a BS to REALLY slow speeds.
But a fully bonused arazu with two t2 damps with range scripts can barely reduce the targeting range below their scram range? How is that right?
Use more damps? You know, the Falcon uses almosy all its mids for jammers?
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2009.02.20 14:49:00 -
[27]
And Tefkros, you are trying too hard.
32 km is DEATH for everyone but the arazu.
If recons do their job they keep the enemy from doing something. The arazu does NOT. Anyone that wants to put any kind of kind of short range weapon can actively be targetted by the ship that supposed to have a "short" targeting range. Having to fit THREE mods is inexcusable, it's stupidly nerfed and it has been utter fail for a year now. Stop, hammer time. |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order
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Posted - 2009.02.20 14:55:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Pac SubCom Edited by: Pac SubCom on 20/02/2009 09:53:55
Originally by: Tefkros 2. An Arazu may put a hostile Falcon out of the fight more reliably than another Falcon will
If you fit for the task, you can neutralize two or three Falcons with a Gallente recon depending on positioning. [Under perfect conditions you can neuter one Falcon per med slot, that is if they all line up 80 km away and have no sensor boosters, a Lachesis can take seven Falcons out of the fight quite reliably.]
Information warfare between Caldari and Gallente recons is the pinnacle of what an EW specialist can encounter in Eve imo (no disrespect for the disruption and painter community). Gallente recons can give a good account of themselves there. To bad that so few seem to be aware that information warfare of this kind exists.
LIES.
One t2 sensor booster will counter all of that. Two of them or one of them with a low slot mod or a rig is impossible to stop. Unless your Falcon pilots are giant pussies and stay at 150 km +. A single t2 booster with range script on a falcon+2 t2 bonused scripted remote damps still give the falcon a range of 60 km. More then enough range to still jam, and another ship will melt your face as soon as they hear you are putting ewar on their falcon pilot.....Try using it then. Stop, hammer time. |
Tea Feltar
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Posted - 2009.02.20 15:00:00 -
[29]
Ummm... my main's Arazu won out fleet fight in Jita cause it was the perfect time for it. I alone jumped into jita, and warped *cloaked* to 4-4. I slowboated 120km to their rook.
I uncloaked and used 1 single T2 damp to render it utterly USELESS. My drones popped it while my fleet warped in and wtfpwned a fleet 3X bigger than ours, because they completely relied on the one rook.
I even popped a Ranis that thought "OMG ez kill". Wrong. My 3 sensor damps turned the laughable 24km lock range of the Inty to 5KM, and used a scram while my drones quickly popped him also.
L2Play. Don't expect a recon to be the end-all-be all ship.
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Linnth
Amarr Darkill Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.20 15:11:00 -
[30]
First give the Pilgrim some well-deserved range. Then we can talk about Gallente recons. -------------------
Amarr: Getting screwed since 2005! |
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.02.20 15:27:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Megan Maynard Name one other recon that ABSOLUTELY needs 3 ewar modules to counter ONE t1 module on the target?
ECM? Two racials at most take care of the target most of the time, even when it fits a t1 ECCM
Webs? Two webs take care of most everything except the extreme cases.
Neuts? Yeah, 2 medium neuts are nasty on a bonused amarr recon.
Again, I don't fly this ship and it's a damn shame it can't be useful..
I would suggest that ECM needs 4 ewar modules (plus 3 low slot modules) to have an effect (note this is not to even counter a single ECCM module).
Unless you devote 4 midslots (and the 3 low slots), one of each racial jammer, then I would say the Falcon/Blackbird/Rook has an even worse chance at performing in its role than a Gallete ewar ship.
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Knawt Ongrid
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Posted - 2009.02.20 15:36:00 -
[32]
Originally by: daisy dook
Originally by: Megan Maynard Name one other recon that ABSOLUTELY needs 3 ewar modules to counter ONE t1 module on the target?
ECM? Two racials at most take care of the target most of the time, even when it fits a t1 ECCM
Webs? Two webs take care of most everything except the extreme cases.
Neuts? Yeah, 2 medium neuts are nasty on a bonused amarr recon.
Again, I don't fly this ship and it's a damn shame it can't be useful..
I would suggest that ECM needs 4 ewar modules (plus 3 low slot modules) to have an effect (note this is not to even counter a single ECCM module).
Unless you devote 4 midslots (and the 3 low slots), one of each racial jammer, then I would say the Falcon/Blackbird/Rook has an even worse chance at performing in its role than a Gallete ewar ship.
You are so right. Poor Falcons. You can hardly can see the lone representative in a fleet through the cloud of Arazus.
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.02.20 15:41:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Knawt Ongrid
Originally by: daisy dook
Originally by: Megan Maynard Name one other recon that ABSOLUTELY needs 3 ewar modules to counter ONE t1 module on the target?
ECM? Two racials at most take care of the target most of the time, even when it fits a t1 ECCM
Webs? Two webs take care of most everything except the extreme cases.
Neuts? Yeah, 2 medium neuts are nasty on a bonused amarr recon.
Again, I don't fly this ship and it's a damn shame it can't be useful..
I would suggest that ECM needs 4 ewar modules (plus 3 low slot modules) to have an effect (note this is not to even counter a single ECCM module).
Unless you devote 4 midslots (and the 3 low slots), one of each racial jammer, then I would say the Falcon/Blackbird/Rook has an even worse chance at performing in its role than a Gallete ewar ship.
You are so right. Poor Falcons. You can hardly can see the lone representative in a fleet through the cloud of Arazus.
Obv, those Arazus must be devoting a measly 3 midslots to ewar.
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horace bagpole
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Posted - 2009.02.20 15:43:00 -
[34]
All those trying to compare the arazu to falcons and moaning that it can't compete are entirely missing the point. It is not intended to compete with the falcon, so unsuprisingly when judged on the same criteria it comes up short.
If you use it to its strengths, the arazu is a very effective ship. The setup I use has 60km point range with recon 5, and more if you have skirmish links in gang or overheat - at that range you are outside of optimal damp range, but still very high falloff (which is 90km at lvl 5), so you are most likely not going to be lockable to your target even if a damp misses a cycle. It has surprised many people that they find themselves tackled when I am still over 50km away. You then just await your gangs dps to arrive and kill the target.
If your gang comes across another gang, pretty often you get ignored because the targets are concentrating on the damage incoming, and they don't perceive you as a threat because 'lol arazu' or whatever, which leaves you free to mess with their ability to fight. Range damping is very effective against logistics, ecm boats, and ships smaller than BS. Scan res damping is pretty effective against battleships and bigger - ask a carrier pilot if it is fun taking over a minute to lock someone who needs remote repping.
A competent arazu pilot can be extremely effective, but it involves a bit more thought and skill than just decloaking 160km out and pressing the jam button with little danger to yourself. Recons are specialist ships, and need to be flown as such. |
daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.02.20 15:48:00 -
[35]
I thought you were doing really well until than the 'a bit more thought and skill than just decloaking 160km out and pressing the jam button'
4/10 (would have been higher)
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Knawt Ongrid
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Posted - 2009.02.20 15:48:00 -
[36]
Originally by: daisy dook
Obv, those Arazus must be devoting a measly 3 midslots to ewar.
Obv, you've never had to fit low and/or mid slot tank, low and mid slot speed mods, mid slot tackle mods, all of which compete with your e-war slots while you operate within 40km of your target.
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.02.20 15:54:00 -
[37]
Edited by: daisy dook on 20/02/2009 15:54:36
Originally by: Knawt Ongrid
Originally by: daisy dook
Obv, those Arazus must be devoting a measly 3 midslots to ewar.
Obv, you've never had to fit low and/or mid slot tank, low and mid slot speed mods, mid slot tackle mods, all of which compete with your e-war slots while you operate within 40km of your target.
The luxury of fitting a tank... oh how I wish the Falcon had the space to fit a tank.
Hmm, let me see - 3 SDAs, okay no chance for a low slot tank. Okay, midslots - MWD - check - Sensor Boost - 1 each racial jammers
So I have a single midslot available for tanking... I'm blessed, lets just hope I don't meet 2 ships of the same racial type.
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Knawt Ongrid
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Posted - 2009.02.20 16:01:00 -
[38]
Originally by: daisy dook
The luxury of fitting a tank... oh how I wish the Falcon had the space to fit a tank.
Hmm, let me see - 3 SDAs, okay no chance for a low slot tank. Okay, midslots - MWD - check - Sensor Boost - 1 each racial jammers
So I have a single midslot available for tanking... I'm blessed, lets just hope I don't meet 2 ships of the same racial type.
At 200km all you need is one LSE.
But really Daisy, this is getting tiring. This was a thread about the celestis class Gallente ew ships not about your damn op'd Falcons. You see when damps were nerfed the Gallente ew ships got a buff to damp usage to compensate just like the two buffs that were given to the blackbird class of Caldari ew ships after the ecm ner . . . oh wait.
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horace bagpole
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Posted - 2009.02.20 16:02:00 -
[39]
Originally by: daisy dook
I thought you were doing really well until than the 'a bit more thought and skill than just decloaking 160km out and pressing the jam button'
4/10 (would have been higher)
The point being though that that is the common perception of how a falcon operates, and although you may have to be more proactive than that to make the most of the ship, it is possible to fly like that whereas with an arazu it is usually not. That people have falcon alts on standby in case they get into trouble, and can use them while continuing to fight with their main shows that it is effective to do that. Try it with an arazu and I doubt very much you would have the same success.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.20 16:05:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Pac SubCom Edited by: Pac SubCom on 20/02/2009 09:53:55
Originally by: Tefkros 2. An Arazu may put a hostile Falcon out of the fight more reliably than another Falcon will
If you fit for the task, you can neutralize two or three Falcons with a Gallente recon depending on positioning. [Under perfect conditions you can neuter one Falcon per med slot, that is if they all line up 80 km away and have no sensor boosters, a Lachesis can take seven Falcons out of the fight quite reliably.]
Information warfare between Caldari and Gallente recons is the pinnacle of what an EW specialist can encounter in Eve imo (no disrespect for the disruption and painter community). Gallente recons can give a good account of themselves there. To bad that so few seem to be aware that information warfare of this kind exists.
LIES.
One t2 sensor booster will counter all of that. Two of them or one of them with a low slot mod or a rig is impossible to stop. Unless your Falcon pilots are giant pussies and stay at 150 km +. A single t2 booster with range script on a falcon+2 t2 bonused scripted remote damps still give the falcon a range of 60 km. More then enough range to still jam, and another ship will melt your face as soon as they hear you are putting ewar on their falcon pilot.....Try using it then.
What script is that falcon going to have in that booster?
If its scan res (to jam enemy falcons first) then your argument is void and they have to switch out to the other script (assuming they're smart enough for that or even brought it) if its a lock range, then chances are they're already sitting at or near the max of their lock range, so you can hit him with all three of your damps and hope that at least one hits him, which would put him out of range. ----------------- Friends Forever |
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.02.20 16:09:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Knawt Ongrid
You are so right. Poor Falcons. You can hardly can see the lone representative in a fleet through the cloud of Arazus.
That gave me a chuckle.
As to the OP, Gallente Recons did get a litle buff with QR.
Scram (not disruptor) range is dead sexy on these ships. I really enjoy my lachesis as a low sec tackler, espeically on gates.
They're nearly pure utility now, with probes, scrams, lock time and survivability being the stats I find most important on them.
I don't use damps at all, waste of mids imo.
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.02.20 16:15:00 -
[42]
Just offering a counterpoint to the view that gallente recons are poor because "2 sensor damps can't reduce a Battleships range below 30km".
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Tibilo
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Posted - 2009.02.20 17:04:00 -
[43]
The problem the gallente recons suffer from is the existence of other ships that do what they do but better.
If your going to reduce enemies targeting range with damps then the rest of your gang has to be setup for longer ranges and be faster than your opponent. your then relying entirely on the arazu to tackle targets. You could have minmater recons,interdictors,interceptors or heavy interdictors to tackle, but then they are not protected by the damps and you no longer really need the scrambling from the arazu. in which case you would be better with a falcon which can also protect the tacklers and is itself less at risk due to being out of range of all the enemy ships.
Using damps to reduce lock time on its own is not that useful, It gives you some time without the enemy attacking back if you can lock first. But once they get a lock the damps become next to useless unless you then target range damp and move out of range.. see above
Longer lock times is also good when combined with ecm, so if at any point the ecm fails the target cant lock before its jammed again. However why take an arazu and a falcon when you could have 2 falcons allowing you to effectively remove more ships from the fight.
If your relying on the recons in your gang for dps then your probably doing it wrong.
Gallente recons are only worthwhile in a few situations and when paired up with other ships, however in those few situations you would probably be better with a different combination of ships |
Tefkros
The Dead Pod Society Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.20 17:26:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Tefkros on 20/02/2009 17:32:33
Originally by: Megan Maynard And Tefkros, you are trying too hard.
32 km is DEATH for everyone but the arazu.
If recons do their job they keep the enemy from doing something. The arazu does NOT. Anyone that wants to put any kind of kind of short range weapon can actively be targetted by the ship that supposed to have a "short" targeting range. Having to fit THREE mods is inexcusable, it's stupidly nerfed and it has been utter fail for a year now.
I'm not trying hard at all, it's you who fails to grasp simple concepts. Read again:
"With a primary webbed by the rest of the gang, neuted and blasted at point blank, neither your dampeners (oh wait, scan resolution maybe to buy your gang some time?), nor the Curses TDs and neuts or the Rapiers webs will amount to much."
In your typical mindless gang fight, it will be death for everyone but ANY recon no matter the ewar used, the Falcon being the only exception. Now if you use *gasp* tactics and use the proper ships to prevent the enemy doing what can kill your gang, use ships to help you dictate range and do ranged dps, the Arazu suddently shines, doesn't it.
Secondly,
Originally by: Megan Maynard If recons do their job they keep the enemy from doing something. The arazu does NOT.
Are you pretending to be an idiot? Warping is considered something, and the Arazu is perfect at preventing someone doing this. If you take an Arazu into a gang without something to complement its abilities and expect it to scram a target, disable a target and help you dictate range, you have some serious issues. Funny though how it becomes a Rapier when you forget about that BS crap examples and get it to engage a smaller, mwding target like in proper skirmishes.
Lastly, 3 slots for ewar on the gallente recons are no problem at all. Why? Because the Arazu gets TWO bonused modules for it's mids, unlike the Minmatar and Amarr ones that get one high and one med slot bonus. How many people do you want to scram from 40km with complete impunity while easily fitting a 1600mm plate? Get real.
When your fail to comprehend something, it doesn't mean others are trying too hard. Your avatar doesn't look very smart either.
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UMEE
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Posted - 2009.02.20 17:37:00 -
[45]
Edited by: UMEE on 20/02/2009 17:37:39
Originally by: Tefkros Edited by: Tefkros on 20/02/2009 07:43:33
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Gram Hellfire Edited by: Gram Hellfire on 20/02/2009 02:26:13 ohnoes! crap fittings don't work on bigger ships!
Furthermore, already is a legitimate word!
Not my ship, but 2 sensor damps with range scripts can't even bring a single sensor boosted BS to under 30 km.... pvp more or try EFT at the least before spewing crap.
A curse can tracking disrupt and neut a BS to hell.
A falcon can perma jam a BS to hell.
A rapier can web a BS to REALLY slow speeds.
But a fully bonused arazu with two t2 damps with range scripts can barely reduce the targeting range below their scram range? How is that right?
Let-¦s elaborate on how may levels the OP fails:
Your fully bonused Arazu (I assume you mean Recons V), with only 2 phased dampeners, will bring a t2 sensor booster Abaddon to 32.5km lock range, while it can scram from 44km with a normal t2 disruptor. That-¦t with all lvl 5 skills. With more mainstream skills (like mine that I-¦m not trained too well in damps), it can damp it to 39.4km with only TWO dampeners, completely ignoring the fact that it can easily fit 3 to be completely safe. Why would you want to use a recon that has scram range bonuses to under 30km?
Let-¦s see what happens to the amazing other recons you speak of. A Rapier with any number of webs, will web that BS. If it stays at his bonused range, the BS has 2 choices: 1. Load Scorch, deploy sentries, in general **** the Rapier in the face, or 2.warp out. If the Rapier chooses to be a hero and come in tackle range, which incidentally happens to be withing heavy neut range, you have one overpowered recon right there!
The Curse. It can neut and TD to it-¦s heart content from bonused range, until said BS decides to 1. Shoot missiles 2. Warp off. If the Curse decides to be a hero and come in tackle range, you have another dead overpowered recon in your hands
The Falcon. It can permajam the BS from 200km. Wow. Next!
So far, for solo work, the Gallente recons are the only one that can most reliably tackle a target and keep it there with the greatest safely margin, well outside heavy neut range.
Are you talking about fleet battle slugfests with BS, where you assume the Gallente recons won-¦t provide any benefit to the gang? With a primary webbed by the rest of the gang, neuted and blasted at point blank, neither your dampeners (oh wait, scal resolution maybe to buy your gang some time?), nor the Curses TDs and neuts or the Rapiers webs will amount to much.
How about the day when your gang faces another gang with dual or triple Guradians, ECCM-¦d to the ears with 100+ signal strength? Falcons will tickle them, Curses must be in multiples to do any harm to dual Guardian caps, Rapiers will web them for no purpose at all, but a SINGLE USELESS LACHESIS THAT COSTS 50 MILLION COZ IT SUX will bring a Guardian and any other logistics ship to 30km lock range with a single damp. I-¦ll let your imagination do the math and predict what happens after that.
Put a 1600mm plate on that gallente recon and you have a buffer as nice as any of the other recons, unless of course you want to nitpick to prove how wrong I am.
Bottom line: If you want to use a single recon ship to wander around like an idiot wanting to shoot anything you encounter , you are doing it very wrong. They all have very specific roles that may or may not work in every situation. And if you put your brain to work sometimes, you will see that the 4 races-¦ recons complement each other amazingly well.
Lachesis+Curse+Huginn+[Falcon if you suck too much]+ long range DPS ships (Cerbs, Ishtars, Zealots). There you go, perfect immunity. Target gets webbed, scrammed, neuted, TD and damped from 40km and pounded from 100. Nerf gangs, eh?
Take your own advice and pvp more...
pwned. /thread
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Secluse
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Posted - 2009.02.20 18:30:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Secluse on 20/02/2009 18:36:16
Originally by: Megan Maynard Name one other recon that ABSOLUTELY needs 3 ewar modules to counter ONE t1 module on the target?
Webs? Two webs take care of most everything except the extreme cases.
Ahh, the anti-minmatar pilot that is crying about gallente. Let's take a look at webs.
Stabber (no-MWD): 361 m/s Stabber (with T1 MWD): 2424 m/s Stabber (MWD with 2x Rapier webs): 464 m/s Stabber (MWD with a Gallente recon with a single T1 scram): 361 m/s
What we have here is the Gallente recon being more efficient in slowing down speed targets fitted with MWD (a huge portion of cruisers and above) than specialized Minmatar ewar.
Of course, we could always brag about how fantastic target painters are on the Minnie recons, those are the real reasons we see all these Rapiers today.
Quite frankly if I were going against a battleship, and someone said "pick any recon to help you", the rapier would be in last place. Wtf would I need webs / painters on a BS for? Of course I would just take a falcon, totally shut down the BS, and happily pop it with whatever I have.
The issue with recons is that falcons are so much better than all other forms of ewar that it makes the rest of the recons largely useless unless you know exactly what conditions the fight will be fought under. That is why damps were so effective in the tourney, people cannot warp out, people cannot leave 125km for a beacon. Since range is defined, suddenly damps are great. In real PvP, unless you can damp to sub-point range, damping is useless because the target warps off.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.02.20 18:45:00 -
[47]
Do they really need fixing?
[i] Ransom List Project: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=999677&page=1 |
Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2009.02.20 19:03:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Secluse Edited by: Secluse on 20/02/2009 18:37:17
Originally by: Megan Maynard Name one other recon that ABSOLUTELY needs 3 ewar modules to counter ONE t1 module on the target?
Webs? Two webs take care of most everything except the extreme cases.
Ahh, the anti-minmatar pilot that is crying about gallente. Let's take a look at webs.
Stabber (no-MWD): 361 m/s Stabber (with T1 MWD): 2424 m/s Stabber (MWD with 2x Rapier webs): 464 m/s Stabber (MWD with a Gallente recon with a single T1 scram): 361 m/s
What we have here is the Gallente recon being more efficient in slowing down speed targets fitted with MWD (a huge portion of cruisers and above) than specialized Minmatar ewar. Of course, the Rapier webs out to 40km, but without a point so what?
I am not disagreeing with the sentiment of this post, but any stabber that leaves his MWD on while being double webbed, is not going to be around very long.
Something to do with that 800 m2 sig radius going 464 m/s, and when he shuts it down himself he drops to 130 m/s and warps away.
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Allahs Warrior
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.02.20 19:58:00 -
[49]
Okay, what role can an arazu do that a falcon can't do? A falcon can: Completely remove 2-3 ships from the fight permanently, with no danger to himself from those ships, regardless of their proximity (ruling out smartbombs or lucky drone aggro) Completely stop 2 logistics ships from working regardless of how close they are to their buddies Break the tackle of 2-4 frigates on any primaried ship so he can warp out. Splitting the jammers up, can severely reduce the effectiveness of 4+ ships. In order to counter the Falcon, you must fit 1 or 2 ECCM, which are COMPLETELY useless, so you must be preparing specifically for the falcon. all from 150+ km away.
An arazu can: Completely remove one ship from the fight depending on range that the fight is taking place. If it's a close range fight, you can slow down the lock speed. Hopefully the enemy can't lock many targets. Completely stop one logistics from locking from its max rep range, so they have to get somewhat close to help their buddies, but once they're close, there's really nothing RSD's do except slow reaction time if they're not already locked on all their buddies. Never can break a tackle from the average frig without multiple arazu's bringing their lock range to less than 10km. Must focus all RSD's on one ship, otherwise it has too little effect to matter. In order to counter the arazu, you must fit the most common mid-slot in the world amongst every single cruiser+ sized ship, the sensor booster. Does this from what, 30-60km away (starts losing effectiveness at only 30km), well within range of almost everything, even some pulse lasers will hit you in falloff at 30km.
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.02.20 23:47:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Allahs Warrior Okay, what role can an arazu do that a falcon can't do? A falcon can: Completely remove 2-3 ships from the fight permanently, with no danger to himself from those ships, regardless of their proximity (ruling out smartbombs or lucky drone aggro) Completely stop 2 logistics ships from working regardless of how close they are to their buddies Break the tackle of 2-4 frigates on any primaried ship so he can warp out. Splitting the jammers up, can severely reduce the effectiveness of 4+ ships. In order to counter the Falcon, you must fit 1 or 2 ECCM, which are COMPLETELY useless, so you must be preparing specifically for the falcon. all from 150+ km away.
An arazu can: Completely remove one ship from the fight depending on range that the fight is taking place. If it's a close range fight, you can slow down the lock speed. Hopefully the enemy can't lock many targets. Completely stop one logistics from locking from its max rep range, so they have to get somewhat close to help their buddies, but once they're close, there's really nothing RSD's do except slow reaction time if they're not already locked on all their buddies. Never can break a tackle from the average frig without multiple arazu's bringing their lock range to less than 10km. Must focus all RSD's on one ship, otherwise it has too little effect to matter. In order to counter the arazu, you must fit the most common mid-slot in the world amongst every single cruiser+ sized ship, the sensor booster. Does this from what, 30-60km away (starts losing effectiveness at only 30km), well within range of almost everything, even some pulse lasers will hit you in falloff at 30km.
So you are saying the lament of the OP about having to fit 2 ewar modules is but a minor theme in the greater concerto of gallente recon suckage?
Next time an arazu damps me from my 250km uber jamming range I'll remember that gallente suck and remind my gang that there is nothing to worry about...
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Allahs Warrior
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.02.21 00:11:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Allahs Warrior on 21/02/2009 00:12:34
Originally by: falcon pilot
Next time an arazu damps me from my 250km uber jamming range I'll remember that gallente suck and remind my gang that there is nothing to worry about...
Next time, jam the arazu with one jammer, and continue to work on 3 other ships. Or warp to a buddy at 100km and still jam from complete safety, and still be in lock range. You don't get un-jammed by warping closer.
Unless that arazu becomes a falcon, then you're ACTUALLY in trouble.
edit: if an arazu got within 30-90km of your 250km uber jamming range, why isn't he A. Jammed/dead or B. why haven't you warped away
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.02.21 00:31:00 -
[52]
Originally by: daisy dook Next time an arazu damps me from my 250km uber jamming range I'll remember that gallente suck and remind my gang that there is nothing to worry about...
WTB 250km damping Arazu... oh wait, you have no clue wtf you are talking about. How cute. Stick to Falcons mate, you may have a vague idea what you are talking about with those.
Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
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Knawt Ongrid
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Posted - 2009.02.21 01:58:00 -
[53]
Originally by: daisy dook Next time an arazu damps me from my 250km uber jamming range I'll remember that gallente suck and remind my gang that there is nothing to worry about...
Daisy Daisy,
He may have targeted you from 250km. Afterall, all recons with sensor boosters can get a lock that far. But, he was not able to damp you. If damps could reach that far we wouldn't be having this discussion and the recons might be somewhat balanced. We would have Arazus and Falcons seeing who could lock first and render the other's ew ineffectual.
If ecm range was reduced, or damp range increased so that such as you describe could happen, then you Falcon apologists might have a valid argument that ECM boats are not overpowered (although I would still argue that preventing any locking ability beats reduced locking range).
Until then, give it a rest. You are either making yourself look ignorant or willing to make blatantly false statements.
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Trader20
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Posted - 2009.02.21 03:13:00 -
[54]
Gal recons already got their buff with the change of warp scrams and their ability to shut off mwd. Gal recons have the ability to shut off mwd and scram from 36km (which makes it more effective then a rapier/huginn), bonused damping and it can pump out twice the dps then a falcon. All the falcon can do is ecm. So Gal recons should be nerfed. Also Caldari are king of fleet support but horrible at solo and nerfing the falcon/ecm will take cal out of fleet fights completely (except for rohk). Falcon/rook/bb/scorp/kit/grif/widow all need ecm to be effective and nerfing it would render those ships useless. So stop whining and adapt.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.21 06:30:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Knawt Ongrid
Originally by: daisy dook
The luxury of fitting a tank... oh how I wish the Falcon had the space to fit a tank.
Hmm, let me see - 3 SDAs, okay no chance for a low slot tank. Okay, midslots - MWD - check - Sensor Boost - 1 each racial jammers
So I have a single midslot available for tanking... I'm blessed, lets just hope I don't meet 2 ships of the same racial type.
At 200km all you need is one LSE.
But really Daisy, this is getting tiring. This was a thread about the celestis class Gallente ew ships not about your damn op'd Falcons. You see when damps were nerfed the Gallente ew ships got a buff to damp usage to compensate just like the two buffs that were given to the blackbird class of Caldari ew ships after the ecm ner . . . oh wait.
I would much much much rather have a 5th jammer over a lse. anyways only having 1 of each racial, and you come up against 2 of a single race bs and well you disable 1 and get lucky a few times on the other one. /off topic
7.5% or maybe 10% bonus on an arazu would be cool though.
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.02.21 12:14:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Originally by: daisy dook Next time an arazu damps me from my 250km uber jamming range I'll remember that gallente suck and remind my gang that there is nothing to worry about...
WTB 250km damping Arazu... oh wait, you have no clue wtf you are talking about. How cute. Stick to Falcons mate, you may have a vague idea what you are talking about with those.
Originally by: Knawt Ongrid
Originally by: daisy dook Next time an arazu damps me from my 250km uber jamming range I'll remember that gallente suck and remind my gang that there is nothing to worry about...
Daisy Daisy,
He may have targeted you from 250km. Afterall, all recons with sensor boosters can get a lock that far. But, he was not able to damp you. If damps could reach that far we wouldn't be having this discussion and the recons might be somewhat balanced. We would have Arazus and Falcons seeing who could lock first and render the other's ew ineffectual.
If ecm range was reduced, or damp range increased so that such as you describe could happen, then you Falcon apologists might have a valid argument that ECM boats are not overpowered (although I would still argue that preventing any locking ability beats reduced locking range).
Until then, give it a rest. You are either making yourself look ignorant or willing to make blatantly false statements.
*** Off thread ***
So you are both telling me that an Arazu can not a) Use bookmarks b) travel to that location (cloaked) c) warp cloaked to a fast frigate travelling to that location
Is that because ECM knocks out the ability to travel and warp?
Lets look at ranges: RSD optimal is 45km (with Long Distance Jamming 5) and has a falloff of 90 km (with Frequence Modulation 5); so they have 50% chance to hit at 135km and still a chance below 225km.
So the ewar range on an arazu is not as shabby as you would have us believe.
Once the Arazu sucessfully gets a hit with its ewar then that 250km Falcon is out for the duration.
*** On thread ***
Meanwhile back on thread, the OP is complaining about having to fit more than 2 RSDs to be effective.
I think we have proven in the above off thread discussion that this is not the case (because, if nothing else, Falcons are everywhere and the Arazu is an excellent counter to that problem).
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Pac SubCom
A.W.M
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Posted - 2009.02.21 13:16:00 -
[57]
Originally by: daisy dook
So the ewar range on an arazu is not as shabby as you would have us believe.
But don't forget that this is an internet forum, where dramatic license is misunderstood. 250km is a bit extreme, but the thing is, the enemy never is at 250km, and Falcons are generally below 200km anyway. If they aren't you can move 20 or 30km and they are in comfortable damping range. That is one of the major points in all discussions - ships can move. Many forget this for the sake of their argument.
Damps have not 45km optimal, nor do they have 30km optimal. They have 63 to 78km optimal, depending on the configuration, plus 90k falloff. Imagine the Vagabond had 63+90km range with autocannons. Would you engage Falcons at range? Damn you would. This is what you should have before you go and engage pimped and highly skilled Falcons and snipers at range. With CS support all bets are off anyway, then it's Falcon pwntime in all cases.
The Lachesis is generally better than the Arazu for information warfare due to its its med slot, its targeting range and its sensor strength. The Rook is better than the Falcon on similar grounds. The Arazu is good against the Falcon, but it it is less effective against the Rook. That's where the Lach comes in.
To use long ranged damping, Gallente recons are not obligated to rush headlong into the middle of an enemy gang. Positioning is important. The falconers have understood this (likely because CCP smacks them on the head with the obvious range bonus), the dampeneers should get the memo already.
--------------- ∞ TQFE
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UMEE
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Posted - 2009.02.21 17:57:00 -
[58]
i dont know why you people keep comparing things to the falcon. that ship is broken, and it's only a matter of time.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.
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Posted - 2009.02.21 18:37:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Endless Subversion
That gave me a chuckle.
As to the OP, Gallente Recons did get a litle buff with QR.
Scram (not disruptor) range is dead sexy on these ships. I really enjoy my lachesis as a low sec tackler, espeically on gates.
They're nearly pure utility now, with probes, scrams, lock time and survivability being the stats I find most important on them.
I don't use damps at all, waste of mids imo.
A little buff? Imo they got a pretty hard buff, its just people usually overlook faction scramblers and claymore ganglinks.
If its about stopping power at gates, they beat the minnie recons by miles, also you can solo again in it (if using damps, scrams and disrupts).
Pretty decent working ship again, people just need to realize it.
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welsh wizard
0utbreak KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.02.21 20:49:00 -
[60]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 21/02/2009 20:55:46 Edited by: welsh wizard on 21/02/2009 20:54:51
Originally by: UMEE i dont know why you people keep comparing things to the falcon. that ship is broken, and it's only a matter of time.
The Falcon (along with all the other ECM boats) rests on a knife edge. It's utterly hopeless when it gets nerfed because it doesn't do anything else, anything else. When its balanced (like it is now) people whine about it because it does its job well. It could afford a small range reduction but not a strength reduction, no way in hell. You can't bring its range down too far because (again) it doesn't do anything else and it has, realistically, a 1 slot tank.
If half the pilots whining in here about the Falcon had played the game for more than 5 minutes they'd know that ECM has already been nerfed twice, and buffed twice. CCP realised fast what a **** up changing ECM drastically was and restored it (almost) to its former glory.
I think ECM will remain the one thing that everyone thinks will get nerfed but won't. The only changes I can see happening to it are reduced range on the Falcon and Scorpion buffs. Ie,, don't hold your breath.
edit: I'm not saying that ECM isn't boring, it is, but don't confuse that with imbalanced. --------------- RIP Crazy Horse |
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UMEE
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Posted - 2009.02.21 20:59:00 -
[61]
Edited by: UMEE on 21/02/2009 21:01:34 um you could take away a mid slot or two, and just have it nullify LESS ships. i dont mind it having the range because 2-3 inties can drop it fast, but it needs to jam less ships.
the falcon IS imbalanced because it makes other recons inferior. yes they all have a different purpose, but comparing how badly they can mess up a gang of ships, the falcon is way on top.
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.02.21 20:59:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Megan Maynard
Originally by: Gram Hellfire Edited by: Gram Hellfire on 20/02/2009 02:26:13 ohnoes! crap fittings don't work on bigger ships!
Furthermore, already is a legitimate word!
Not my ship, but 2 sensor damps with range scripts can't even bring a single sensor boosted BS to under 30 km.... pvp more or try EFT at the least before spewing crap.
A curse can tracking disrupt and neut a BS to hell.
A falcon can perma jam a BS to hell.
A rapier can web a BS to REALLY slow speeds.
But a fully bonused arazu with two t2 damps with range scripts can barely reduce the targeting range below their scram range? How is that right?
a curse is not a force recon, the pilgrim is. a pilgrim cant nuet a battleship to hell, it can hurt some mission runners pretty weel though :D if you get in strife in a pilgrim you screwed....
arazu fights over 30km!? what you complaining about?
do you see any falcons getting any success with TWO JAMMERS!?
have you seen a rapier solo a battleship recently?
your inability to THINK doesnt make an arazu a bad ship...
i can fly a falcon and a pilgrim and well im very tempted in an arazu aswell.
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welsh wizard
0utbreak KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.02.21 21:04:00 -
[63]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 21/02/2009 21:04:19
Originally by: UMEE um you could take away a mid slot or two, and just have it nullify LESS ships. i dont mind it having the range because 2-3 inties can drop it fast, but it needs to jam less ships.
What other role do you propose for it to do if you reduce its ewar effectiveness to that of the amarr & gallente recons? I bet you haven't even thought of one have you?
Tell you what, answer this, do you think a Falcon (a Caldari ship with 5 mid slots following your proposal) having a chance based opportunity to jam 1 or 2 ships while offering no other use is balanced? If you do, then, well... You could, perhaps suggest moving those 1 or 2 mid slots to the low slots so it can fit a tank couldn't you? --------------- RIP Crazy Horse |
UMEE
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Posted - 2009.02.21 21:21:00 -
[64]
Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 21/02/2009 21:08:35
Originally by: UMEE um you could take away a mid slot or two, and just have it nullify LESS ships. i dont mind it having the range because 2-3 inties can drop it fast, but it needs to jam less ships.
Tell you what, answer this, do you think a Falcon (a Caldari ship with 5 mid slots following your proposal) having a chance based opportunity to jam 1 or 2 ships while offering absolutely no other use is balanced? If you do, then, well...
yes, this would be perfect! finally someone gets it.
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welsh wizard
0utbreak KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.02.21 21:29:00 -
[65]
lol --------------- RIP Crazy Horse |
echohead
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Posted - 2009.02.21 22:17:00 -
[66]
lol, What a silly thread! I think the 'zu works just fine.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.02.21 22:19:00 -
[67]
Originally by: UMEE
Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 21/02/2009 21:08:35
Originally by: UMEE um you could take away a mid slot or two, and just have it nullify LESS ships. i dont mind it having the range because 2-3 inties can drop it fast, but it needs to jam less ships.
Tell you what, answer this, do you think a Falcon (a Caldari ship with 5 mid slots following your proposal) having a chance based opportunity to jam 1 or 2 ships while offering absolutely no other use is balanced? If you do, then, well...
yes, this would be perfect! finally someone gets it.
For the octillionth time: if you're going to reduce the Falcon to the same EW capability of the other force recons then you need to propose a [secondary EW + combat capability] for it to match that of the other force recons.
Throw down.
PS Despite uncounted months of mendacious, illogical falcon whines, there is no hint of a falcon change on SiSi. Is this because the devs own Falcon BPOs, do you think...?
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.02.21 22:21:00 -
[68]
Originally by: UMEE
Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 21/02/2009 21:08:35
Originally by: UMEE um you could take away a mid slot or two, and just have it nullify LESS ships. i dont mind it having the range because 2-3 inties can drop it fast, but it needs to jam less ships.
Tell you what, answer this, do you think a Falcon (a Caldari ship with 5 mid slots following your proposal) having a chance based opportunity to jam 1 or 2 ships while offering absolutely no other use is balanced? If you do, then, well...
yes, this would be perfect! finally someone gets it.
eg: Dominix get about the same DPS with turrets as a Raven gets with cruise. Therefore remove the utterly unfair and imbalanced bloated drone bay, bonus and bandwidth!!!
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daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.02.21 22:50:00 -
[69]
Originally by: UMEE Edited by: UMEE on 21/02/2009 21:01:34 um you could take away a mid slot or two, and just have it nullify LESS ships. i dont mind it having the range because 2-3 inties can drop it fast, but it needs to jam less ships.
the falcon IS imbalanced because it makes other recons inferior. yes they all have a different purpose, but comparing how badly they can mess up a gang of ships, the falcon is way on top.
If it wasn't for the hardcoding of racial jammers then I could go with this - as it stands I have to have 4 slots devoted to ECM to stand a chance of jamming any single ship.
Make jammers multispec with scripts to change them to racials and I would happily fit less jammers (strangely enough I might also be more effective).
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Trebor Notlimah
Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2009.02.22 01:45:00 -
[70]
Give them more of a bonus to damps. They they will be sexy again.
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Lil Mule
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Posted - 2009.02.22 02:59:00 -
[71]
Please.
I fly a pilgrim and it is a very very sad excuse for a T2 ship. I dont think it could even nuet a Kestrel ffs, let alone a battleship
The Arazu, the Rapier, the Falcon are all extremely effective ships compared to the lowly pilgrim
If there is a ship in this game that needs a fix, its the Pilgrim, not the Arazu. -----------------------------------------------
People enjoy flying Amarr for the same reason they like being tied up in leather, whipped and called names
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Schnitzar
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Posted - 2009.02.22 04:47:00 -
[72]
"Lachesis+Curse+Huginn+[Falcon if you suck too much]+ long range DPS ships (Cerbs, Ishtars, Zealots). There you go, perfect immunity. Target gets webbed, scrammed, neuted, TD and damped from 40km and pounded from 100. Nerf gangs, eh?"
For some reason I cant quote this properly, anyway....
That kind of fleet seems nice, but really you're banking on fighting 5 vs 1, you'll just win on sheer numbers. If you were fighting equal numbers then 5 plain old battlecruisers would probably own your fleet (falcon is the only one that would win it for you). I think the only advantage is that you can escape a losing battle more easily.
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.02.22 08:13:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Lil Mule Please.
I fly a pilgrim and it is a very very sad excuse for a T2 ship. I dont think it could even nuet a Kestrel ffs, let alone a battleship
The Arazu, the Rapier, the Falcon are all extremely effective ships compared to the lowly pilgrim
If there is a ship in this game that needs a fix, its the Pilgrim, not the Arazu.
yes absolutely the pilgrim sucks real bad - boost pilgrims already.
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Diomidis
Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.22 09:25:00 -
[74]
Few of my best wingmen scout or FC in Arazus, and post-QR-Patch some of them forgot their Rapiers in-favor of that ship...in fact the Rapier cannot shine without Gallente Recon support anymore so I would consider it their support
And yes, despite it's solo niche, the Pilgrim is a much more problematic gang-ship than any of the above - never was I asked to bring a pilgrim in my whole PvP life, given I had anything else handy.
All other cloaking recons beat it for scouting or overall ewar performance in a gang or both...for neuting everybody preferes a Curse, for TDing even an arbitrator or a Sentinel can match it... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! |
Gabriel Virtus
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.24 20:55:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 24/02/2009 20:58:54 The problem with the gallente recons is that they are both terrible. We are not comparing cloaky recons, or noncoaky recons, we are comparing the recon class across races. In this category, the gallente recons are just terrible. I think it is because CCP decided to hate gallente and their freedom loving for going on a year and a half now. I think its because CCP hates freedom and democracy.
But in all seriousness, every other race has at least one of the recons that are very decent and viable ships. No one will argue that the pilgrim is not complete fail, but amarr have the curse, arguably the best pvp recon, if not pvp cruser in the game. Minmatar have the rapier/huggin, and caldari have the failcon. All of these recons serve completely legit roles and they serve them well.
When the specialized sensor dampening ships cannot dampen 1 t1 battleship to a range that they can tackle them, the specialized ship is complete fail. If you happen to run into a person that figures out they can unload thier scan res script from their t1 sensor booster, the arazu/lechesis will fail even more. The problem is that they do not have enough mids to take advantage of their specialized ability. They are supposed to be long range tacklers and sensor dampeners, but only have the mids to complete one of these tasks. While the amarr, minmatar, and optimally the caldari can remove ships damage comptletely from the battlefied, the gallente just fail. The sensor dampeners are not long range enough to warrant only the use of the dampeners.
CCP stop hating on gallente, give 100mbps drone bandwidth to the myrmidon, switch the covert ops back the the maulus hull, give the EOS a decent dronebandwidth. After the last 4 patches have continuously nerfed gallente, it is getting a bit old. I bet next patch they will get rid of the dominix completely from the game to make gallente worthless to fly.
-GV
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Flashetta
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Posted - 2009.02.24 21:26:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Gabriel Virtus CCP stop hating on gallente, give 100mbps drone bandwidth to the myrmidon, switch the covert ops back the the maulus hull, give the EOS a decent dronebandwidth. After the last 4 patches have continuously nerfed gallente, it is getting a bit old. I bet next patch they will get rid of the dominix completely from the game to make gallente worthless to fly.
QFT.
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Flashetta
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Posted - 2009.02.24 21:27:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Flashetta
Originally by: Gabriel Virtus CCP stop hating on gallente, give 100mbps drone bandwidth to the myrmidon, switch the covert ops back the the maulus hull, give the EOS a decent dronebandwidth. After the last 4 patches have continuously nerfed gallente, it is getting a bit old. I bet next patch they will get rid of the dominix completely from the game to make gallente worthless to fly.
QFT.
Except for the maulus hull thing, i dunno what that's about.. must have been before my time :\
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.02.24 21:46:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Endless Subversion on 24/02/2009 21:47:46
Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Lengthy Whine
You're flat out wrong. The only problem with the gallente recons are sensor damps, and no one is forcing you to use damps.
Both the Arazu and the Lachesis have an extra mid over their amarr counter parts. The problem with the lachesis and the arazu are they can't keep themselves safe from a single BS while using only 2 damps. So don't, use TDs.
And since 2x TD are better than 1 bonused TD and 3x TD are basically equal to 2x bonused TDs, the gallente recons are basically better TD platforms than the amarr recons.
And for gang utility bonused scrams/disruptors are a hell of a lot more useful than the neut bonuses on the amarr ships.
So bring gallente recons with TDs, the slot layout more than makes up for the nerfed damps.
Originally by: Gabriel Virtus But Endless, what about missile ships!111!!
Well you're still not any worse off than the curse or pilgrim and you could always try looking at those damps again..
**Pro Tip** The curse and the pilgrim are awful ships
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Flashetta
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Posted - 2009.02.24 22:00:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Endless Subversion
...some sorta elitest jargin...
Lol, Broke is broke dude. Just becuase one ship is "more broke" than another, doesn't mean that the latter isn't indeed.. (..wait for it..) .."broken".
Pro Tip (always wanted to say that): ".."'s are cool.
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.02.24 22:07:00 -
[80]
Lachesis is epically awesome this patch.
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Lisento Slaven
The Drekla Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.24 22:39:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Tibilo The problem the gallente recons suffer from is the existence of other ships that do what they do but better.
If your going to reduce enemies targeting range with damps ........
Using damps to reduce (*INCREASE*) lock time on its own is not that useful.......
If your relying on the recons in your gang for dps then your probably doing it wrong........
You forgot to mention that they are also very effective at turning off MWD's at very long ranges now. Excellent for gate camps.
Does anyone know if the effect is it ends the cycle of a MWD or is it INSTANT deactivation? Like...does the MWD still go through its cycle or is the cycle "interrupted" and your speed goes down immediately when hit with a scram?
I admit...I've never had anyone use one on me even though 90% of my fits still use a MWD. ---
Put in space whales!
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.02.24 22:41:00 -
[82]
It shuts the MWD instantly, the cycle does not finish.
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Tibilo
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Posted - 2009.02.25 00:56:00 -
[83]
I guess the main point is if you want some ewar to prevent enemy ships from locking you, your almost always better off with bonused ecm.
Gallente recons with maximum skills can shut off a mwd from up to 18km with named/T2 scramblers. However its a waste to take a recon just for this effect when any interceptor or close range ship can apply it in addition to their other benefits. |
Tefkros
The Dead Pod Society Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.25 06:17:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Schnitzar "Lachesis+Curse+Huginn+[Falcon if you suck too much]+ long range DPS ships (Cerbs, Ishtars, Zealots). There you go, perfect immunity. Target gets webbed, scrammed, neuted, TD and damped from 40km and pounded from 100. Nerf gangs, eh?"
For some reason I cant quote this properly, anyway....
That kind of fleet seems nice, but really you're banking on fighting 5 vs 1, you'll just win on sheer numbers. If you were fighting equal numbers then 5 plain old battlecruisers would probably own your fleet (falcon is the only one that would win it for you). I think the only advantage is that you can escape a losing battle more easily.
Actually we fought and won 2 v 5 on more than one occasion (eg Huginn+Curse vs. Drake, Damnation, Armageddon, Blackbird and smth else I dont recall, a gatecamp with BS and logistics on another occasion had a similar fate) and a 2 v 10 (Huginn+Curse vs 4x Megathrons, Deimos, Lachesis, Enyo, Tristan and something else). What didnt die, ran.
If the lowly Huginn/Curse duo can pull this off, scale this up with the safety margin a Lachesis would provide. A 5 man BC gang trying to close the 40km gap with a Curse, Lachesis and Huginn against them is going to have serious issues. Its all about knowing your ships. You can even leave the Falcon and the HAC out of gang, and still have the field.
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Wideen
Warped Mining Strip Mining Club
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Posted - 2009.02.25 11:28:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton tackling a battleship with near invulnerability isn't any good?
Well yeah it's great that you are invulnerable to that one BS while focusing all three of your damps on it. Not so great if that BS has friends since you have to operate within 40-45km.
Rapier and Falcon both operate from farther away and can disable multiple ships at the same time. Arazu? Only one. Pilgrim operates much closer, but it can actually fit a decent tank and can still negate multiple opponents. Arazu? Still only one and no tank to speak of.
Arazu sucks for anything other than ganking a solo victim with multiple ships. Not a terribly fantastic role there. It really needs it's damps boosted so it can negate multiple opponents like it used to be able to.
tbh you don't have time to discuss petty ship fittings go publish another IRS series instead plssss ________________________________________ "I robbed a goon and I liked it" - Suas |
Suitonia
Gallente interimo End of The Line.
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Posted - 2009.02.25 11:48:00 -
[86]
The design of the Arazu/Lachesis is fine, it's just that sensors dampeners are a pile of **** at the moment.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.02.25 11:50:00 -
[87]
Damps aren't that useful. Long-range MWD scrambling, however, is pretty entertaining. If there's a problem, it's more to do with damps on Keres/Arazu/Lach, than with the ships as a whole.
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Morel Nova
z3r0 Gravity Fluidic Anti-Gravity
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Posted - 2009.02.25 13:11:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Morel Nova on 25/02/2009 13:14:02
Originally by: Lil Mule Please.
I fly a pilgrim and it is a very very sad excuse for a T2 ship. I dont think it could even nuet a Kestrel ffs, let alone a battleship
Is this sarcasm or something? the pilgrim is fantastic to be honest. The only thing I could wish for was a little more cpu/grid so you dont have to have recon 5 or use faction items to get a nice fit (please, the price of medium unstables are killing my wallet), but a bunch of other ships have this problem too.
EDIT: to stay on topic I personally find damps pretty useless except to screw with smaller ships and fit mine with shield extenders + scram/disruptor now instead. The awesomeness of the long range scram makes up for the ****ty damps, and if any recon pilots should be *****ing it should be the rapier guys. Dual webbed inties still outrun the rapier which is very sad. Put in space whales!
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