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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.17 00:07:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Tam Elbran
Originally by: Elysarian Surely the WCS is primarily for "travelling" (i.e. getting away from people who want to kill you)?
Or am I missing something here?
You are.
Once fitted to your ship you get those penalties which severally hurt your capabilities for ratting, mining, whatever. So if you want to defend yourself from that ganking/griefing technique you virtually cripple your ship. On the flipside, those employing that ganking/griefing technique have no penalties.
Wrong. The Scrams uses capacitor and the scram takes a slot.
SO deal with it. If you really have problems, you are doing it wrong. Do you align, for instance? Do you keep an eye out in local perhaps?
I suggest you just pay more attention instead of wining about something that is works as intended.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.17 00:52:00 -
[62]
*Checks to see if anyone posted them yet*
Nope, nobody has, so I will.
You say you were "Griefed" eh? Well...
AND
I think that pretty much covers it.
Oh, wait! One more, just in case you forgot:
Ok, THAT covers it.
Fix the Wardec System! |
Lindsay Logan
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Posted - 2009.02.17 01:00:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Bish Ounen *Checks to see if anyone posted them yet*
Nope, nobody has, so I will.
You say you were "Griefed" eh? Well...
AND
I think that pretty much covers it.
Oh, wait! One more, just in case you forgot:
Ok, THAT covers it.
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MidnightMartyr
Gallente NailorTech Industries Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.02.17 02:12:00 -
[64]
Edited by: MidnightMartyr on 17/02/2009 02:21:22 Failpost is fail. (And most likely a troll)
Scrams and WCSs are working as intended.
Hello kitty online is
I thought about trolling and posting something like "Aww man I agree fully. I was down in delve ratting quietly, not hurting anyone and this big gang of goons came and greifed me with these overpowered tools of destruction." but ultimately I couldn't do it.
Penalties on scrams would end EVE PVP forever since no one would fit them anymore. And thus any target would simply need to warp away from the fight. CCP would not do anything so dumb...
EDIT: read more of the thread, removed redundant flames and left pertinent info.
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Lasran Tekeal
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Posted - 2009.02.17 03:58:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Jericho thePure Also god kills a kitten every time someone fits a Warp Core Stab, so think of the kittens.
http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view.php?type=corp&name=Black+Night+Industries&id=5468843&page=3&filter=losses#mail
Oh Shi-!
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Learol
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Posted - 2009.02.17 04:48:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Learol on 17/02/2009 04:49:16 if you get killed by a random pirate in lowsec, thatĘs just bad luck, if your corporation gets wardeced by a random pirate who specifically made a corp just to wardec you, and kill you over and over and over and constantly laugh in your face about how lame you are and how badly fail in eve, thatĘs still just bad luck, for you to find griefing in eve, you need to die repeatedly, by the same guy, every time you leave the station for a month at least, only then can you call it griefing
*edit, well, usually, but there can be exceptions where it takes a lot longer, and far more insults |
Reverend Locke
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Posted - 2009.02.17 09:41:00 -
[67]
Say it with me, kiddies:
Never undock your ship unless you are prepared to lose it
The moment you undock your ship, accept that it is already destroyed. It is only a matter of when, not if. You WILL lose your precious ship eventually.
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fivetide humidyear
Gallente EXCESS10N
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Posted - 2009.02.17 13:11:00 -
[68]
best bit of the wcs nerf was all the ratting ravens from certain 0.0 entities suddenly having a lock range of 6km on their ratting ravens and the volume of whining it generated post patch.
the penalties were applied to wcs beczause everyone and their pre nano period ships fitted one or 2 or more wcs to a lot of combat ships for no penalty. most well known was the burn eden raven i guess.
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Ana Vyr
DB - LJ Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.17 15:22:00 -
[69]
There really is no such thing as griefing in lowsec space....though I suppose you could say you are griefing yourself by showing up there unprepared. Even in high sec, you pretty much have to make an error to be griefed unless it's a suicide gank.
Best defense against lowsec pirates = cloaking device (preferably a Covert Ops Cloak II...which of course requires a proper ship to fit).
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.17 15:31:00 -
[70]
once there was an armageddon setup with lows all heatsink and highs all pulses. these ships had excesive DPS for that time. then damage mods got stacking penalised. the geddon setup changed to 1/2 lows heatinks and 1/2 lows warp core stabs.
now they had a bit less damage but could get away every time.
wcs got nerfed ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
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MukkBarovian
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Posted - 2009.02.17 15:57:00 -
[71]
I fight and kill the same people over and over again. You know the ones that have home systems all near mine? And I'm pretty sure some of them have killed me multiple times. Are we all greifing each other?
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Lacihtenu
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Posted - 2009.02.17 17:32:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Cedric Diggory Ooh, I'd forgotten about the multiple microwarpdrives!
Excuse my ignorance, but what does having 2 MWD's do to or for your ship exactly? Besides sucking a large chunk of energy space for other stuff. Does having 2 actually double your ship speed? Or does it have another underlying effect I am unaware of? Thanks. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Conuion Meow ([email protected]) |
Tam Elbran
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Posted - 2009.02.17 17:33:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Tam Elbran on 17/02/2009 17:33:51 Don't like the word griefing...
Try these two on.
Cowardly, Pathetic.
Because these types, talking about how you "pays your money, you takes your chances". I bet 99% of them wouldn't pull their crap if it looked like the ship they are going after is even an even match to theirs.
EDIT: That's why I laugh at all the tough guy acts in here.
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Neyro7830
Gallente Axxeon
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Posted - 2009.02.17 17:41:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Tam Elbran
Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Shooting at someone in this game does not equal griefing.
You guys can call killing someone far below you in strength just because you can anything you want, it won't change reality.
Just offhand, how many times would you say you have been killed in lowsec trying to mission? :3
I can't sum it up better than "Shooting at someone in this game does not equal griefing."
EVE is a PVP game, all the time. Sure its harder to do it in high-sec, but once you undock, you are fair game. Oh god how did this get here I am not good with computer |
Morgan La'Chance
Caldari Dynamic Reallocation and Logistics
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Posted - 2009.02.17 17:44:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Tam Elbran Try these two on.
Cowardly, Pathetic.
What is cowardly and pathethic about shooting someone's ship?
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2009.02.17 18:02:00 -
[76]
It's quite simple, really.
You seem to think that EVE encourages griefing because you can't fit penalty-free WCS. All that WCS do is make it possible for you to trivially ignore warp disruption; and consequently there would be no decent fights anywhere if everyone had the option to leave when they start to lose.
What the WCS balance does is ensure the possibility of decent fights. However, you still get the option to avoid fights if you're willing to decide on fight or flight at the ship fitting stage, which is definitively the opposite of griefing - it allows people who do not wish to engage in PvP a very strong chance to avoid it while flying with that fit.
Yes, it deliberately ruins your combat effectiveness, so that you can't engage in PvP combat while being able to bug out at any time - or even, go ratting with an invincibility option that lets you get out whenever you can. EVE is all about risk vs. reward, so it should come as no surprise to you that fitting an option that reduces the risk to near-zero does the same to your (potential) rewards as well.
WCS are great if you're travelling and want to just get to where you're going through lowsec (assuming no HICs) without stopping to do anything on the way. Once you're there, there are plenty of defences against being warp scrambled but they mainly rely on keeping your situation awareness up; something that leads to an appropriate cat-and-mouse game where both parties can try to outdo one another, rather than an automatic "your warp disruptor is useless, bye" mechanic.
If you want to guarantee that someone won't try to pirate you, stay in highsec in an NPC corp and don't take from any wrecks or shoot any flashy players ever. Otherwise, you'd best learn responsibility for your actions and how to help yourself. Coming to the forums and asking people's opinion (admittedly in an antagonistic and flamebaiting way) is a good start; now take the advice to heart and learn! Every single time you lose a ship in EVE, you did something wrong and the loss could have been avoided with better decisions. The sooner you come to terms with that, and stop trying to blame griefers for your loss, the better.
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Gimpb
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.17 18:28:00 -
[77]
You're never going to be completely safe but in time you'll learn how to travel quite safely.
Using the right ships, fittings, and techniques you can be practically impossible to catch in low sec. Even 0.0 can be traversed with impunity to all but the rarest of situations.
All but pos/outpost pvp is more or less consentual for those that have come to understand the mechanics. It sounds like you're getting out there and taking some risks early on so you'll figure it out in short order. Just be glad you're learning the lessons early in cheap ships--the sooner you get your hard nocks out of the way the better.
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Junko Togawa
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Posted - 2009.02.17 18:36:00 -
[78]
Encourages griefing? No, not really. It enables it, though, just as it enables many styles of gameplay. Realize, though, that the only protection you have from it is either avoiding the ways it takes place or coming prepared to deal with it. Would you call it griefing if you got frogstomped by a group of players on one of the PvP servers of other MMO's? You knew it was possible for them to do it. Ignorance isn't really an excuse here, the gameplay is well-documented for those who want to learn and research it. Same-same.
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Enden Assulu
Caldari Atomic Mexicans
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Posted - 2009.02.17 18:50:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Tam Elbran Don't like the word griefing...
Try these two on.
Cowardly, Pathetic.
Because these types, talking about how you "pays your money, you takes your chances". I bet 99% of them wouldn't pull their crap if it looked like the ship they are going after is even an even match to theirs.
EDIT: That's why I laugh at all the tough guy acts in here.
Can I have your stuff?
Or if you truly hate being killed just don't enter low sec, it is that simple. EVE is a game based around 'risk v reward' ovbiously low sec has the better rats and sometimes the better ores. So on the 'risk v reward' system the danger increases.
And to say there is no penalty to the person killing you is quite ridiculous, they take a sec hit (once there security status is below a certain level they start getting locked out of high sec systems.) It is also quite risky because once you engage someone you have something called GCC (Global Criminal Countdown) Which means if you go near a gate or a station then you will be shot by the sentry guns there and they deal 300 DPS so the can be quite painful especially for frigates/cruisers/battle cruisers. Also with this count down you may not enter high sec because concord will pay you a visit.
So to say there is now risk for someone shooting you shows a complete lack of understanding of this game.
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AngryMax
Gallente Executable Inc
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Posted - 2009.02.17 19:08:00 -
[80]
Eve needs a low slot diaper change module.
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Deadeye Devie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.17 19:16:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Tam Elbran Edited by: Tam Elbran on 17/02/2009 17:33:51 Don't like the word griefing...
Try these two on.
Cowardly, Pathetic.
Because these types, talking about how you "pays your money, you takes your chances". I bet 99% of them wouldn't pull their crap if it looked like the ship they are going after is even an even match to theirs.
EDIT: That's why I laugh at all the tough guy acts in here.
your ship has mods, and can be salvaged for rig pieces....no harm in making some cash out of some other solo players poor situation! you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. it happens to all of us...i think my grand total of ships lost in combat would be 16 ishkurs (they pop and leave good prezzies for the enemy and a hole in my wallet but i just locve em soooooo much), 3 jaguars, a malediction, countless rifters, a few ruptures, and a vexor or 2. A low count for a player over a year old in game time, but then again i have been over carefull and pick my spots in low sec carefully...or go in a big group. ive been solo and been jumped by groups numbering 5, or even 10 to 1, purely because i got greedy and didnt pay attention to who was jumping into the system untill they were on top of me. ive also had 1 on 1s where they thought they had the upper hand, and have been the aggressor in 1 on 1s...low sec is tantamount to the wild west...its the strongest and fastest survives. As for coward.....i will state the the code 'Omerta' for you, it is a fitting and apt motto to keep in mind when your going to low/null sec...
Quote: Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant, "If I Die, You are forgiven, If I Live, I will kill you." Such is the Rule of Honor.
TL;DR version; if you dont like being shot at, dont leave empire Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both. |
Psycho Nomad
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Posted - 2009.02.17 19:23:00 -
[82]
This thread is funny.
ignorance in this case most certainly isn't bliss. From the perspective of a new pilot in eve, being killed over and over again is a harsh and unavoidable lesson into the relentless and dangerous world so many of us love. The same lesson that gradually imprints into every one of us the understanding of what really lies at the heart of eve.
Those that know, know eve is a blood fest, the literal reason for eve is to fight each other. All other aspects of eve, the market, the mining, the production so on and so forth is merely logistical backing for combat, which is at eves heart. A universe filled with super-high tech war machines pit against each other in perpetual violence, with an affluent enough means of perpetuating those machines to carry on the onslaught. A constant clash of intellect and strategy within a system so complex and consisting of so many variables some may see it not to far from chaos.
EvE IS War. Period. In EvE you will die. you logging in is you signing a consent form to fight. You have agreed to die and you will not complain when you do. if you DO complain then you have agreed to being flamed by people trying to make you understand that which has been explained. If you do not want to die, you are playing the wrong game. Adapt or Die.
This is what so many people love about eve. So many people get drunk on this. The commit to dance in-tune with the dark rhythm of EVE's twisted heart. To not fall at the first hurdle and cry that they die, but to laugh at their loss and see it merely as a reason to become better, stronger, quicker, tougher...
You either get it or you don't. it's simply a matter of perspective, and if u for whatever reason are not able to see it for yourself, EVE will make you get to see it the way she wants you too, in the only way she knows how.
So the question isn't "Can anyone explain the the logic behind the creation of a module that doesn't allow me to be totally safe yet still able to do what i want.. yada yada" - The Question should be only an internal one - "i wonder how long it'll be before i get to kill that mthr fkr"
... in closing. Get With The Programme!
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Rheed
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.02.17 19:30:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Tam Elbran Edited by: Tam Elbran on 17/02/2009 17:33:51 Don't like the word griefing...
Try these two on.
Cowardly, Pathetic.
Because these types, talking about how you "pays your money, you takes your chances". I bet 99% of them wouldn't pull their crap if it looked like the ship they are going after is even an even match to theirs.
Lemme see if I can get this logic correct... I fly a space ship in a space ship shoot em up game, I find another space ship and shoot it up... that makes me a pathetic coward?
Originally by: Tam Elbran
EDIT: That's why I laugh at all the tough guy acts in here.
Do you mean "Wish I was a tough guy, so I cry and ragepost,"?
Good lord... Do you sit down to pee? Look at me! I'm on the INTERNET!!! |
Tibilo
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Posted - 2009.02.17 21:08:00 -
[84]
Ok just skip to the bottom if you want a summary of this but warp scrambling does not provide good fights it provides kills as the person you are fighting cant warp off after having engaged and realised they will lose. If the person you are fighting is trying to warp away at the very start it will likely not be a fight but an easy kill.
For better fights having some chance of warping away and allowing hit and run tactics is what is needed.
anything that increases the chance of getting easy kills reduces the chance of good fights. when people know that if they get into a fight where they are outnumbered they will be unable to warp away and all die, they will likely not engage.
I think a good change would be to remove the penalties for wcs. Make scrambling chance based for a certain amount of time before being able to lock a ship down. Also perhaps increase align time for every ship and increase the warp speed of every ship.
not sure about exact numbers but for example an interceptor gets a single point on a battleship. for the first 30 seconds the scrambler has say a 40% chance each cycle of stopping the battleship from warping. After those 30 seconds are up the battleship is scrambled and will not be able to warp. If the battleship has a wcs fitted the scrambling chance is reduced to 30% each cycle, If the inties backup arrives before the 30 seconds are up and gets another point on the bs the inties have 2 30% chances of scrambling the bs every cycle. wcs could have stacking penalties so the chance is never below a certain limit.
On one hand the interceptors manage to keep the battleship from warping while the rest of their gang warp in and kill it. On the other the battleship manages to warp away and gets into the next system where he happens to have a few friends, they setup on the gate and when the other gang jumps in because they chased the battleship they get a fight instead of an easy kill.
Basicly there are so many ways for a larger gang to catch and kill a smaller gang while there are few that allow hit and run tactics. how many eve pvpers want easy kills and how many want good fights as you cant really have it both ways. Personally i would prefer good fights as I play games for fun. Although for prolonged fights, should maybe just play strategy games..Eve rts anyone? :)
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Tam Elbran
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Posted - 2009.02.18 02:39:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Rheed
Lemme see if I can get this logic correct... I fly a space ship in a space ship shoot em up game, I find another space ship and shoot it up... that makes me a pathetic coward?
No, flying around looking for people you know have no chance of winning fight against you and locking them down and killing (and pod killing) make "you" a pathetic coward. Like I said, the vast majority of these tough guys won't try to "attack and pvp" when it looks like the ship they are going after may have a chance to beat them.
Originally by: Rheed
Do you mean "Wish I was a tough guy, so I cry and ragepost,"?
Originally by: Rheed
Ahhh...and the uber 1337 d3wd mentality rears it's ugly head. Here's a clue since you seem to be lacking one. Stating an opinion contrary to what is popular is not a rage post. Frankly, if I were raging so bad I were punching holes in the wall I would not let any of you see it...I know that's exactly what so many want to see.
Originally by: Rheed
Good lord... Do you sit down to pee?
That's very witty...pick it up in junior high?
P.S. To whomever asked for my stuff...I'd burn it in Jita in front of you first
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Mortis Tyrathlion
Twisted Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.18 03:46:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Mortis Tyrathlion on 18/02/2009 03:46:36
Originally by: Tam Elbran
Originally by: Rheed
Lemme see if I can get this logic correct... I fly a space ship in a space ship shoot em up game, I find another space ship and shoot it up... that makes me a pathetic coward?
No, flying around looking for people you know have no chance of winning fight against you and locking them down and killing (and pod killing) make "you" a pathetic coward. Like I said, the vast majority of these tough guys won't try to "attack and pvp" when it looks like the ship they are going after may have a chance to beat them.
I have a nice little word for kills like that. Darwinism.
There really is very little to be said that hasn't already been said. Eve is a harsh place. The moment you enter lowsec, you've signed a contract that amounts to "I'm prepared to die here".
My corp is a pirate corp, and furthermore we specialise in mission busting - that is, hunting down and killing or ransoming mission runners who stray into our territory. Yeah, it's not a particularly fair fight if there's a lot of us on, but it pays the bills On the other hand, if you know what you're doing, you should be checking the scanner to see if you're being probed. If you aren't, you really earned that gank. We're nice enough folks - hell, we've even given advice on how to better fit ships and what to watch out for to our victims.
But on the flip side, we're a pretty small corp by local standards, so we're often in danger of getting blobbed if we're not careful. "There's always a bigger fish". Do we complain?
Ok, maybe we grouch a little if someone does it repeatedly :P But do we whine and leave? No, we pick our moments and gank the hell out of them when they don't expect it.
In short, you want safety? Stay in high-sec. You want reward? Come to lowsec or nullsec, just be prepared to fork out for new ships regularly. You want fun? Quit whining and fit your ship to melt faces the next time someone jumps you.
Still don't like it? To quote someone else on these forums... -
Originally by: Arcon Telf OP, you should be honored, because this is the first time in my short Eve career I've felt the need to say this:
Azeroth is that way ------>
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Tam Elbran
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Posted - 2009.02.18 03:54:00 -
[87]
Bitter jealousy of WoW is amusing
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Junko Togawa
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Posted - 2009.02.18 06:00:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Tam Elbran
No, flying around looking for people you know have no chance of winning fight against you and locking them down and killing (and pod killing) make "you" a pathetic coward. Like I said, the vast majority of these tough guys won't try to "attack and pvp" when it looks like the ship they are going after may have a chance to beat them.
It also makes you the one without the popped ship. I think this is a fine representation of what anyone with actual combat experience would tell you...fair fights are for morons. Fair fights get you shot, maybe killed. Those who want to live don't fight fair.
Really, maybe you should play a game with duel systems and no real loss in the aftermath of the match. EvE just doesn't seem to be it for you.
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B1FF
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Posted - 2009.02.18 13:28:00 -
[89]
Tam,
Eve is like gambling. Either you're there to milk the other guy for everything you can or you're there to loose your shirt. Either is equally acceptable. Sometimes sitting at the table is worth the loss. But always know which you are before you sit down at the table.
There's no such thing as a fair fight.
Obviously you have some idea of what you think Eve should be. What you want it to be. Your opinion differs from the devs. They've stated many times that they want eve to be a cold, dark, unfair, harsh, violent world. They're proud that it is. So any arguement you make against these things is pointless.
You were blown up. It happens. It's normal. That's what insurance is for.
There are many ways to prevent it. People have offered some in this thread. In fact declining fights is fairly easy. There are many many options. Go listen to the pirates *****. They think anything that prevents a kill is a sploit.
Personally I don't care too much for direct PvP. What I love is living in a live fire environment. I find my joy in living and operating in low sec. Everytime I don't get blown up that a win for me and a loss for the pirate.
If you don't want to deal with PvP then quit or stay out of low-sec. I'm not saying that to be mean. I'm saying that because you'll never be happy.
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Lycana
Amarr White Rose Society
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Posted - 2009.02.18 13:47:00 -
[90]
Tam,
If you're going to be travelling through low-sec, stabs are a good idea. If you want to rat and/or mine, the simple solution is to put an armor tank/damage mods where the stabs would've gone and carry a flight of ECM drones. Yes, you'll be hoping your tank holds until the lock breaks if you don't warp out in time, but it significantly lowers risk without hurting reward at all.
Basically, if you want to fight, carry equipment that lets you fight. If you don't want to fight, carry equipment that lets you get away. Low security space is pirate space; don't go to open pvp zones if you don't want to pvp.
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