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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
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CCP Mindstar

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Posted - 2009.02.04 22:36:00 -
[1]
Hi there folks,
We have been looking into the reports of poor performance in mid sized (30v30 etc) fights, specifically in Factional Warfare. We would like to get some more information from people experiencing issues in these fights as a part of this ongoing investigation.
What we are looking for at the moment are reports on when and where a laggy engagement has occurred. This will enable us to pinpoint all sorts of juicy information about what has been going on server-side, which of course helps us to find any problems faster.
So, if you are in Factional Warfare and have had a fight recently where you experienced an abnormal amount of lag, please reply to this thread with the following information:
Date+Time of fight: System Name: Number of pilots involved: Comments on performance: eg. "x seconds module lag" / "1 FPS" / "Disconnected x times"
Thank you very much (in advance) for your help. The more information we are armed with, the better.
Mindstar -- |
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Falcon Troy
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.02.04 23:50:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Falcon Troy on 04/02/2009 23:51:01
Well I can tell you that this lagbomb that invaded the Black Rise/Essence area suspiciously started to rear it's head when Quantum Rise was released. I do in fact remember, I've been in FacWar since the start, that we could conduct pretty large fights (Sometimes around 200 people involved if not more) with somewhat bearable lag.
Funnily enough these were the times when 0.0 lag complaints were at their height. Suddenly QR came around and now we have the opposite with frustratingly game breaking lag with anywhere from 80 person to 20 to even simple 10 man fights! And I mean those as the total for both sides involved...
Something changed regarding server management for the FacWar areas (Perhaps all lowsec areas) and I have my suspicions that CCP knows exactly what but can only now see their error. At least I hope they do with this thread. |

mnogotochie
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Posted - 2009.02.05 00:31:00 -
[3]
Edited by: mnogotochie on 05/02/2009 00:32:18
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rastavelli
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Posted - 2009.02.05 00:33:00 -
[4]
just recently lost a hurricane in Dal just because enemy fleet jumped in to the system soon as i got to the gate, had a big lag and then froze up for 8 seconds, evrything came back to normal soon as my ship blowed up |

Smog890
Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun
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Posted - 2009.02.05 00:36:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Smog890 on 05/02/2009 00:37:30 Time: 20:00 System: Kamela Num Pilots: 70
As soon as fight started everyone lagged out in the fleet.
I was Fleet Commander I undocked the carrier warped it to the Kourmonen Gate in Kamela and Triage carrier. As soon as I got the first lock on friendly to rep lag sunk in. I was one of the first to get on the field.
Our targets (non fleet) where already at the gate and the main fleet was on the Kamela gate in Kourmonen they jumped into Kamela from Kourm to engage while carrier warped off station.
Once lag set in I kept getting entering space message about 30 times with loading bar. It reset camera each time when I did this.
Could not shut off remote reps on friendly I was trying to repair cap went from 100% to 25% until they shut off but they kept cycling and while they where still cycling cap finally started going back up.
Unlocked one ship I was trying to repair (did not remove it from HUD) and then it automatically locked him back up and then I had two of him on overview as locked targets. (this was after fight was done and targets where gone and no more shooting happening)
Had to restart to clear the lag issue and be able to play. Most of the fleet had to do the same.
Link to killboard fight showing all ships/people involved
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Smog890
Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun
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Posted - 2009.02.05 00:43:00 -
[6]
Date time: 2008-09-01 05:29:00 System: Auga Involved: 90
Comments:
Capital fight jumped in my carrier after about 10mins of fighting client kicks me and says server unknown for about 5 mins, restarted, reopened client, nothing worked, I was locked out for 5+ mins from logging in. (server was not down fight was still going on) Come back in time to log in to click the rep button as my carrier just hits 0% struc and blows up. When I got kicked I had 100% armor...
Link to killboard details of all involved
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Smog890
Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun
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Posted - 2009.02.05 00:52:00 -
[7]
Date: Middle December System: Amamake Involved: 20 or below
Comments:
Jump carrier out of Kamela system to Amamake (Dropping it on some war targets about 10 of them) we had about 10 in fleet. Carrier comes out of cyno and loads everything except the ships on the field. (like it emergency warped away, no stargate displayed either).
Relogged to fix problem, fight over once I got back, I was in a safe spot in Amamake with carrier, I warp to second station on list and dock it for the night. I log back in to find my carrier in Kamela where I cynoed out from.
As you can see I cynoed out of Kamela into Amamake and docked in Amamake (I read system name and had all the stations on my list that are in Amamake) and then I just end up back in Kamela and my fuel was missing from when I cynoed to Amamake...
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Smog890
Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun
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Posted - 2009.02.05 00:57:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Smog890 on 05/02/2009 01:01:55 Date: 1/24/09 21:00ish (not sure when around that date) System: Kamela Involved: 60 or so
Jump fleet of about 35 into Kamela from Kourmonen. 30ish war targets on other side of gate. We start to engaged and lag sets in before we get first primary target down. I called fleet fight off because everyone was lagged out.
Cruiser was a primary and after 3 mins of us all targeting him and shooting at him his armor did not move at all as if we where not shooting him.
Some in fleet said he was already blown up but 75% still showed him alive that's when fleet was called off.
It was unplayable and most lost their ships due to this. Fun fight could of happen but due to lag it did not most of Militia logged out after this disappointed.
Nothing over 65 in local for this fight as I remember. |

Smog890
Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun
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Posted - 2009.02.05 01:07:00 -
[9]
Also, 90% of the time when we engage with around 30 or more the fleet will lag or a good portion of the fleet will lag out. This has been getting worse and worse over the past few weeks. These systems that usually main fleet fights happen are:
Kamela, Kourmonen, Auga, Dal, Amamake, Houla
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Smog890
Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun
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Posted - 2009.02.05 01:14:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Smog890 on 05/02/2009 01:15:52 We where able to do ops like this back at this time:
Ships: Just about 200
Link to killboard details
That is when we took an Amarr POS out. The lag was alright but if we where to try this again it would not happen at all. It would be a stand still nothing happening for a few hours.
This is to show what we where able to do back then before all the server changes and it was still playable with those many at that time.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.05 02:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Smog890 Edited by: Smog890 on 05/02/2009 01:15:52 We where able to do ops like this back at this time:
Ships: Just about 200
Link to killboard details
That is when we took an Amarr POS out. The lag was alright but if we where to try this again it would not happen at all. It would be a stand still nothing happening for a few hours.
This is to show what we where able to do back then before all the server changes and it was still playable with those many at that time.
I was part of both phases of that assault. The initial surge was definitely not tolerable lag, but it was to be expected. There were as many as 240 people in local that day, IIRC, and a good 150 people at the scene at any given time. The module lag was OK (six seconds or so), but any time there was a session change, all hell would break loose. I was popped twice, each time I disconnected, and it took close to two minutes to log back in. Considering the system was definitely not prepared for a situation like this, I was pleasantly surprised at the overall performance.
However, even before Eve64 and StacklessIO were deployed, I would never expect conditions like that in a 30v30 battle. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |

matt deamon
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Posted - 2009.02.05 04:23:00 -
[12]
lost an abaddon due to lag in auga, had little to no control over the ship.
sat at 90% armor for 3 minutes then suddenly was in pod.
2009.02.04 20:22:00
Victim: matt deamon Corp: Valklear Guard Alliance: NONE Faction: Minmatar Republic Destroyed: Abaddon System: Auga Security: 0.4 Damage Taken: 76191
Involved parties:
Name: Galliana Foresta Security: 0.4 Corp: Fleeting Moments of Insanity Alliance: NONE Faction: Amarr Empire Ship: Armageddon Weapon: Garde II Damage Done: 27527
Name: Ottersmacker Security: 5.0 Corp: 24th Imperial Crusade Alliance: NONE Faction: Amarr Empire Ship: Unknown Weapon: Hammerhead II Damage Done: 21777
Name: kaiwoo (laid the final blow) Security: -1.0 Corp: Pimebeka Mining Corp Alliance: NONE Faction: Amarr Empire Ship: Caracal Weapon: Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Damage Done: 8828
Name: Cmdr Zander Security: 4.0 Corp: Gunship Diplomacy Alliance: NONE Faction: Amarr Empire Ship: Capsule Weapon: Hammerhead II Damage Done: 8754
Name: Kiva Andrews Security: 0.3 Corp: Gunship Diplomacy Alliance: NONE Faction: Amarr Empire Ship: Harbinger Weapon: Heavy Pulse Laser II Damage Done: 4000
Name: Jodie Amille Security: 1.0 Corp: Gunship Diplomacy Alliance: NONE Faction: Amarr Empire Ship: Abaddon Weapon: Mega Pulse Laser II Damage Done: 3449
Name: Gaun Arel Security: 5.0 Corp: Gunship Diplomacy Alliance: NONE Faction: Amarr Empire Ship: Harbinger Weapon: Vespa I Damage Done: 1856
Name: Acronis Themis Security: 2.4 Corp: Deus Imperiosus Acies Alliance: NONE Faction: Amarr Empire Ship: Unknown Weapon: ECM - Multispectral Jammer II Damage Done: 0
Name: Galdornae Security: 5.0 Corp: Gunship Diplomacy Alliance: NONE Faction: Amarr Empire Ship: Cerberus Weapon: Warp Scrambler II Damage Done: 0
Name: Aubrac Security: 2.0 Corp: Gunship Diplomacy Alliance: NONE Faction: Amarr Empire Ship: Unknown Weapon: J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Damage Done: 0
Name: colias lore Security: 3.1 Corp: Ominous Latin Nouns Inc. Alliance: NONE Faction: Amarr Empire Ship: Unknown Weapon: Warp Disruptor II Damage Done: 0
Name: Jennil Hozbay Security: 0.3 Corp: 7th Golden Lancers Alliance: NONE Faction: Amarr Empire Ship: Unknown Weapon: J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Damage Done: 0
Destroyed items:
Sensor Booster II Cap Booster 800, Qty: 7 (Cargo) Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Qty: 3 Trimark Armor Pump I, Qty: 3 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Amarr Navy Multifrequency S (Cargo) Fleeting Warp Disruptor I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Heat Sink II, Qty: 2 Scan Resolution Amarr Navy Multifrequency L, Qty: 2 Multifrequency L, Qty: 8 (Cargo)
Dropped items:
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I Sensor Booster II Microwave S, Qty: 4 (Cargo) Radio L, Qty: 8 (Cargo) Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Qty: 5 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Large Armor Repairer II Amarr Navy Multifrequency S (Cargo) Multifrequency S, Qty: 4 (Cargo) Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Scan Resolution Amarr Navy Multifrequency L, Qty: 6 Ultraviolet L, Qty: 8 (Cargo)
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Heinz Kraessler
Tribal Core
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Posted - 2009.02.05 09:38:00 -
[13]
04/02/09: 2024 EVE System: Auga 46 pilots involved
10 to 20 seconds module lag, 2 FPS, game messages: you are already in warp and then wake up to a pod.
Petition is up too. |

Pikkuhukka
Caldari Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.02.05 09:58:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Pikkuhukka on 05/02/2009 09:58:56 http://pervs.pingtimeout.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10144 this fight was a damn lagfest thats what i can tell you :<
killmails we got was primarily cause of drones agroing to random targets or antoine popping some people with muninn ^^
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T 2
Minmatar Tribal Core
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Posted - 2009.02.05 10:30:00 -
[15]
Edited by: T 2 on 05/02/2009 10:30:40 Date+Time of fight: 2009-01-15 19:09:00 System Name: Kourmonen Number of pilots involved: approx 100 Comments on performance: unknown time of module lag - never went online as far as I could tell. Found myself in my medical clone after about 4-5 min of clicking warp-to. ----------- Member of Tribal Core - fighting for Minmatar Militia. Death to Amarr; long live the Minmatar Nation.
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Antoine Lefevre
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.02.05 10:33:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Antoine Lefevre on 05/02/2009 10:33:49
Originally by: Pikkuhukka Edited by: Pikkuhukka on 05/02/2009 09:58:56 http://pervs.pingtimeout.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10144 this fight was a damn lagfest thats what i can tell you :<
killmails we got was primarily cause of drones agroing to random targets or antoine popping some people with muninn ^^
Time: 13th January 2008, 19:20. System: Old Man Star Pilots involved: Started out probably with 20 versus 40. Performance: After the Gallente fleet jumped into the system from Villore and started shooting most of our fleet received multiple "Entering space" messages and picture started zooming in and out. Leaving the grid and warping back helped but that's easy to say since I was the only sniper. Corpmates also reported being unable to target or activate modules.
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Derus Grobb
Selectus Pravus Lupus
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Posted - 2009.02.05 11:01:00 -
[17]
Date: 17 Jan 09 System Name: Kamela Number of pilots involved: ~65 Comments on performance: All brackets and effects turned off. Lag was server side - FPS was fine. Ships were jumping around, could not be locked, were destroyed but still appeared on screen. We were still shooting primary a good minute after he got blown up.
My guns were meant to be firing every 3 seconds. As you will see from the log the actual firing times varied wildly: (I removed the message from each firing)
[ 2009.01.17 21:01:56 ] [ 2009.01.17 21:02:03 ] [ 2009.01.17 21:02:04 ] (the target was probably destroyed around this point, it was just a cruiser with 30 ships shooting it) [ 2009.01.17 21:02:11 ] [ 2009.01.17 21:02:17 ] [ 2009.01.17 21:02:18 ] [ 2009.01.17 21:02:27 ] [ 2009.01.17 21:02:35 ] [ 2009.01.17 21:02:36 ] [ 2009.01.17 21:02:43 ] [ 2009.01.17 21:02:44 ] [ 2009.01.17 21:02:51 ] [ 2009.01.17 21:03:00 ] [ 2009.01.17 21:03:00 ] (yeah they fired twice in the same second, heh)
So yeah, it was unplayable. I hope you guys can have a good look and try to fix this for us.
Show us some love!
Derus
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CCP Mindstar

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Posted - 2009.02.05 11:19:00 -
[18]
Thank you all for the replies so far. Constructive and to the point - just the info that we need.
Originally by: Smog890 Also, 90% of the time when we engage with around 30 or more the fleet will lag or a good portion of the fleet will lag out. This has been getting worse and worse over the past few weeks.
It would be interesting to see some statistics on what percentage of the fleet are lagging out in these cases. If only portions of the fleets are lagging out, then the issue at hand may be very different to if 100% of both fleets lag out.
General question to all - Have you been fine in a factional warfare fight when the rest of the fleet / opposing fleet has lagged out?
Mindstar |
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Antoine Lefevre
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.02.05 11:37:00 -
[19]
Originally by: CCP Mindstar General question to all - Have you been fine in a factional warfare fight when the rest of the fleet / opposing fleet has lagged out?
Couple days back we had a fight in a minor. Our fleet was sitting inside at the beacon when the enemy fleet warped in. They reported a lot of lag. I had a bit of targeting problems myself too. The fight was about 15 vs 20 so even small fights seem to lag quite a lot. http://pervs.pingtimeout.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11107
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Neu Bastian
Minmatar Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2009.02.05 12:06:00 -
[20]
I've had relatively little lag issue in the past but but now I've been to the point where module activation just doesn't happen. I generally have a few seconds of little lag then it gets worse, forget about changing session. I think server might just crap out once everyone is shooting and all drones are out.
And before is brought again, we do have tutorials up in the forums for bracket removal, drone models, etc.
The thing with FW is that fights are not easily predicted, so we can't request for more juice before hand like, lets say, someone attacking a POS in 0.0 could.
lots of Mexican standoffs because neither side is willing to jump into the other due to lag issue. |

T 2
Minmatar Tribal Core
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Posted - 2009.02.05 13:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
It would be interesting to see some statistics on what percentage of the fleet are lagging out in these cases. If only portions of the fleets are lagging out, then the issue at hand may be very different to if 100% of both fleets lag out.
I'm not 100% sure about it but based on how the fights have gone - it would seem that the fleet getting jumped to dont lag out that bad. However there has been few fights that I remember from the top of my head where things have been vice versa. In general I'd say that its not 100% of both fleets lagging out in most cases.
Also it was one fight where we had two fleets jumping one enemy fleet. Firs fleet jumped in - reported heavy lag - second fleet jumped in and reported only minor lag.
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
General question to all - Have you been fine in a factional warfare fight when the rest of the fleet / opposing fleet has lagged out? Mindstar
I have been once without lag when having local flooded with enemy complaining about the lag. This was when we had dual fleet jumping in two waves. I was in the second wave.
In general my feeling regarding this is that the lag distributes among the people unevenly at times. Sometimes it seems to affect all (atleast on my side) and sometimes people report having module lag while some people get DC'd. I find it hard to pinpoint the exact behavior of the lag but it is a fact that it is there. Unfortunately a lot of people are quiting fw due the lag-fest.
I hope the feedback helps in solving the issue.
Best Regards, T2 ----------- Member of Tribal Core - fighting for Minmatar Militia. Death to Amarr; long live the Minmatar Nation.
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YORK CRAFT
Caldari KRAFTWERK
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Posted - 2009.02.05 15:52:00 -
[22]
Date : jan 25th Battle start time : 00.25 System : Old Man Star Location : Villore-Gate Size : 37v45
We had setup a camp at that gate with around 30 ppl. 40 ppl Enemy-fleet jumped in from Villore. Total desync right after. Ultra long target-locks, already killed targets still show up on overview and remained locked as targets aswell without taking any damage. At the end only a few of us survived that mess (huge amount of Podkills, btw).
My heavy DPS BS fleet managed to kill only 2 enemy BSs. And 1 of them 2 kills happened kinda like 45 sec before the whole enemy fleet jumped in, btw. So it was in fact only 1 BS kill in the real fleetvfleet fight. Around 90% of us desynced with all consequences like extrem module delay to no effect, "no damage delivered", "no damage recieved" on screen, no warp to and waking up in clone, while ship was just fine seconds before.
Strange is, we where camping, drones out, and enemy jumped in. We desynced, in the past it was quite the opposite, but still playable for both sides with little lag, especially all the time before QR release, even with much higher numbers.
Enemy jumped into our camp after QR : Killboard Linky OMS
As a reference before QR launch it all went quite smooth :
Date : Oct. 2nd Battle start time : 22.27 System : Old Man Star Location : Heydieles-Gate Size : 46v46
This was, when we jumped into a gate-camp from Heydieles into Old Man star with a little to no lag and kills on both sides (an enemy camp consisting also of Domis with drones out, btw).
That was before QR : Killboard Linky OMS
Im not sure about the evidence trackdown or corellationon on QR launch though, but its obviously fact, that FW is broken atm. Even lower sized fleetbattles like 10v10 are effected by this desync issue. Experienced pilots and FCs, who know, how to setup their graphical displays.
And thx for the badly needed investigation, CCP.
Hope I could help,
York Craft
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.02.05 16:13:00 -
[23]
Date+Time of fight: 2009-01-13 19:42:00 System Name: Old Man Star Number of pilots involved: 60+ at beginning, near 100 at end. Comments on performance: Total **** tbh. And that's a nice way to say it. |

Bad Messenger
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.02.05 16:40:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Bad Messenger on 05/02/2009 16:43:57
Originally by: Unfamed II Edited by: Unfamed II on 05/02/2009 16:21:29 Date+Time of fight: 2009-01-13 19:42:00 System Name: Old Man Star Number of pilots involved: 60+ at beginning, near 100 at end. Comments on performance: Total **** tbh. And that's a nice way to say it. Edit: Modules worked perfectly for like 5 seconds, then everything died, couldn't target anyone, couldn't activate/deactivate reps (targeted or local), couldn't really do anything. Then the amazing rodeo of "entering ship -> full zoom out -> full zoom in -> entering ship -> rinse and reapeat and double everything in OV", tell me why this happened? Hardware is not an issue. CTRL-Q'd once to get hold of things and again, everything worked for like 5 seconds and shait hit the fan again.
I had same problems but i stayed so long alive that i manage to reset ui by ingame methods and continue some how playing when most of people were dead or left grid. there was like 10minutes session when i could not do anything.
http://freezed.kotiposti.fi/images/2009.01.13.19.25.37b.JPG
I had never experienced so bad lag or client bugging before in eve
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Nephilim Xeno
Caldari Pimebeka Mining Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.05 21:31:00 -
[25]
http://www.amarr-empire.net/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=29706
in this fight i think most of the fleet lagged out after we warped to the acceleration gate, which had not the full amount of enemies there at the beginning of the fight
only 2 or 3 of us were not completly desynced and lagged out after the first minutes most people were not even able to lock a target or activate their guns until they had to relog and woke up in the clone station |

Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.06 05:07:00 -
[26]
Originally by: CCP Mindstar Thank you all for the replies so far. Constructive and to the point - just the info that we need.
Originally by: Smog890 Also, 90% of the time when we engage with around 30 or more the fleet will lag or a good portion of the fleet will lag out. This has been getting worse and worse over the past few weeks.
It would be interesting to see some statistics on what percentage of the fleet are lagging out in these cases. If only portions of the fleets are lagging out, then the issue at hand may be very different to if 100% of both fleets lag out.
General question to all - Have you been fine in a factional warfare fight when the rest of the fleet / opposing fleet has lagged out?
Mindstar
CCP Mindstar
It has been reported by many that when they lag out (moreso during these fleet battles), they drop connection and show server status unknown for a couple minutes after dropping. This often happens abruptly, not the usual loss of sync during a session change. I have experienced this more than once.
Could this be related to the random Socket Closed error that has been somewhat common as of late? ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006. |

Mitch Taylor
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.02.06 09:18:00 -
[27]
I tend to dual box in most fleet fights, interestingly when my main is lagging my alt tends not too! spooky.
However any low sec battle with 50 in system you get some strange lag 'entering ship' over and over.
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TooNu
Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit
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Posted - 2009.02.06 12:47:00 -
[28]
Cut and paste from my Petition I left on the night:
Hello, approx 100 ships from 2 Militias showed a significant increase in "Lag" in the Deven system tonight at around 23:00-23:30. This was due to an unplanned engagement from both sides in the defence of a POS.
The fight took place at the gate of Nagamanen within the Deven system. I warped in at 200kms from the gate with brackets off and all my effects disabled, my cache is at 512mb and I warped in and warped in and warped in and warped in and warped in...I think you understand my point.
This is purely one example of many. |

ukiyo e
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Posted - 2009.02.06 13:57:00 -
[29]
Videos with lag: January 18th, Ishomilken Video (lag starts at 3:00): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj45_ezS2zI Battle report: http://www.quafeultra.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=98969
January 13th, Nisuwa Video (lag starts at 1:50): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1rexdr734A Battle report: http://www.quafeultra.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=98072
December 21st, Old Man Star Video (lag starts at 1:15): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCMy2MZOLCA Battle report: http://www.quafeultra.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=93638 |

Steve Floros
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Posted - 2009.02.06 17:19:00 -
[30]
CCP should realize that alot of players dont log in and play because of this lag... If something is not done about it, there will be very few people playing FW. Militia active numbers are falling steadilly...
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