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McSkanky	Posted - 2009.02.04 20:21:00 - [1] http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=989558 Shame on CSM member Issler Dainze for making what appears to be an official sounding post but is in fact just a thread where she is complaining about a war dec that may interrupt her low scale care bearing efforts in EVE. As a representative of the EVE community, Issler has a duty to appear when using the CSM tag as a respectable member who understands the game, and to honor and respect (if not necessarily follow) the various means and methods players use to enjoy their EVE experience. As this isnFt the first time Issler has complained on the eve forums about a war dec against her alliance (see: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=932882 ) I truly think the CSM should censure Issler for her poor smack and her poor taste; as well as besmirching the CSM itself by appearing to be making official statement policies on their behalf. Obviously, Issler Dainze is one of those unique individuals able to make enemies everywhere she goes. The simple fact of her election to the CSM remains a mystery, probably just the ignorant masses voting for someone towards the top of the ballot. The fact that she continues to use this character to make non CSM related posts on the forums, when she obviously has other characters she can just as easily use is shameful (see the recent commentary within the alliance tournament where Happy Joymaker blew up her ship, receiving 3rd damage despite being jammed for 1/3 of the fight by the enemy fleet { shame Happy didnFt get her pod, but what would one expect in a non sensor boosted BS). Her CSM vote count of 666 appears to be oddly appropriate! So, although poor smack on the forums here is obviously not something one can control (Goons, Pandemic Legion, and others can obviously understand what that would lead to within their own ranks!) the misrepresentation of CSM is truly appalling. As outlined in the 2007 EVE Fanfest, CSM exists to provide a means of communication from the players to CCP to provide a high level of player feedback to CCP, as well as a means and method for the players to organize communications of issues to CCP. Is this truly the form and level of communication we want CCP to have from the CSM? CSM members should vote a Resolution of Censure on Issler Dainze for her posts. Issler Dainze has done wrong. The CSM body can do right by condemning her conduct and showing the player base of EVE, as well as the staff at CCP that such actions should not be allowed to stand unchallenged.
Jon McCane	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:11:00 - [2] I'm Jon McCane and I approve this message.
Maxmillion Ex Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.02.05 06:41:00 - [3] I highly disagree. Other CSM members post with their characters on non-CSM topics as well, and this does not detract from their duties. Also, the post you provided the url for... might I point out the title of the post? "Sad panda FOOM has a broken EPEEN!" If this misled you to believing there was CSM relevent content (in CAOD nontheless), then I think there are much bigger issues at stake here than Isslers posting ability. Obviously, you are trolling to gather more negative attention for Issler. The simple fact that you're an alt in Happy Joymaker corp, founded by Happy Joymaker, is proof that you too are trying to recover some of your lost epeen. I find it very unfortunate that she is being targetted, along with her alliance (which according to FOOM, they had no problem with. It's just her right? That's why the wardec is on the alliance?). However, this is Eve, and I don't know about everyone else, but it would be BORING without this level of gameplay, politics, and (occassionally) forum whoring. I wish you the best of luck in recovering your Epeen. I'd like to remind you that your (erm... Happy Joymakers, since you're totally not his alt) death was in vain. I would also like to point out that the largest thing detracting from the CSM is this post getting in the way of the other much more relevent topics. "shame Happy didn’t get her pod" - because podkills were reimbursed?
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.02.05 07:08:00 - [4] Originally by: Maxmillion Ex I highly disagree. Other CSM members post with their characters on non-CSM topics as well, and this does not detract from their duties. Also, the post you provided the url for... might I point out the title of the post? "Sad panda FOOM has a broken EPEEN!" If this misled you to believing there was CSM relevent content (in CAOD nontheless), then I think there are much bigger issues at stake here than Isslers posting ability. Obviously, you are trolling to gather more negative attention for Issler. The simple fact that you're an alt in Happy Joymaker corp, founded by Happy Joymaker, is proof that you too are trying to recover some of your lost epeen. I find it very unfortunate that she is being targetted, along with her alliance (which according to FOOM, they had no problem with. It's just her right? That's why the wardec is on the alliance?). However, this is Eve, and I don't know about everyone else, but it would be BORING without this level of gameplay, politics, and (occassionally) forum whoring. I wish you the best of luck in recovering your Epeen. I'd like to remind you that your (erm... Happy Joymakers, since you're totally not his alt) death was in vain. I would also like to point out that the largest thing detracting from the CSM is this post getting in the way of the other much more relevent topics. "shame Happy didnFt get her pod" - because podkills were reimbursed? This guy summed it up well.
John Declan Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.02.05 07:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Maxmillion Ex I highly disagree. Other CSM members post with their characters on non-CSM topics as well, and this does not detract from their duties. Also, the post you provided the url for... might I point out the title of the post? "Sad panda FOOM has a broken EPEEN!" If this misled you to believing there was CSM relevent content (in CAOD nontheless), then I think there are much bigger issues at stake here than Isslers posting ability. Obviously, you are trolling to gather more negative attention for Issler. The simple fact that you're an alt in Happy Joymaker corp, founded by Happy Joymaker, is proof that you too are trying to recover some of your lost epeen. I find it very unfortunate that she is being targetted, along with her alliance (which according to FOOM, they had no problem with. It's just her right? That's why the wardec is on the alliance?). However, this is Eve, and I don't know about everyone else, but it would be BORING without this level of gameplay, politics, and (occassionally) forum whoring. I wish you the best of luck in recovering your Epeen. I'd like to remind you that your (erm... Happy Joymakers, since you're totally not his alt) death was in vain. I would also like to point out that the largest thing detracting from the CSM is this post getting in the way of the other much more relevent topics. "shame Happy didnFt get her pod" - because podkills were reimbursed? I support this product and/or service.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.02.05 13:41:00 - [6] Ridiculous proposal. This person was elected to the CSM in a fair and democratic vote and retains the position until the end of the term. Posting rubbish on CAOD is not in and of itself a eula violation and shouldn't enter into it.
John Declan Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.02.05 20:38:00 - [7] Edited by: John Declan on 05/02/2009 20:40:24 Originally by: McSkanky Holy Batman wall of text truncated. Oh, I almost forgot... 0/10 troll
Happy Joymaker The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.05 20:56:00 - [8] McSkanky, dude, chill out. Issler is doing just what we want, M'kay. She cannot help it. It is her nature. She is making a big enough arse out of herself with her lame posts. Any sort of a slap on the wrist from the CSM wouldn't do anything at all. CSM is just an advisory group to get player feedback at CCP, and the folks at CCP are (I would assume) wise and knowledgable enough to take any advise given to them in the appropriate context. Issler will continue to make lame posts, and will hire some mercs that we can eat up for the fun of it while we get ready for W-Space and the interesting times ahead with that. No biggie, and quite fun actually. Oh, and dude, if your going to try to flame, at least do it with an NPC corp alt, or your main in the Goons. Goons are supposed to be good at flaming after all. ________________________ Happy Happy Joy Joy!
Issler Dainze	Posted - 2009.02.05 23:01:00 - [9] So a few general comments. When I decided to volunteer to participate in the CSM (and was surprised by being elected) I did it to represent a part of the player population I hadn't seen represented before. (The semi-casual but committed industrialist that may or may not be in a player corporation and likely lives in empire-ish) I think I am doing a reasonable job doing that. I NEVER agreed as part of being a CSM member to quit enjoying Eve the way I always have. In fact what I personally decided to do was increase my involvement. As for some of the claims that I whine about war decs I think history and my actions show that simply isn't true. As a CSM I have never suggested or tried to eliminate that element of Eve. My only issue with the goon war that recently ended between BEEP and the goons was that it seemed initially to be an attempt to effect the CSM process. Despite that complaint BEEP did what they could to participate in that war and in the end we are better for it. As to offering to hire mercs in the BEEP/FOOM war I did it as being officially a "carebrar" corp this is what carebear corps generally do. In this case we are also going to fight and I expect fight well. The merc offer was also because I know a lot of folks had issues with FOOM and/or BRUCE (far more than have ever had issues with Tada O or BEEP) and that some of those folks might like to have a reason to join the fun. So that may be a bit of a ramble but the key points are. -Being part of the CSM I think I do the most good participating in as much of Eve as there is to enjoy, and for some that has a forum component. - Nothing I do in the CSM has anything directly to do with my aliance or any organizations/individuals we encounter good or bad. -I'm not sure how I could use being in the CSM to any advantage as mostly it make me and my associations targets. -Finally I want CSM members actively involved in Eve when they are serving. That is the best way for them to understand the issues facing the players. And I'll close with this. You have to wonder about FOOM's leadership. The issues between myself and BRUCE were over early in their Syndicate days and such a small footnote in the rise and epic failure of the alliance. In the end we left more resources in BRUCE than we ever took and have made it a point to go our own way since. How they could think we (or if you believe some of thier posts me) were worthy of so much effort is simply a mystery. I'd say if the gripe is about me in the CSM then here is an idea, RUN A CANDIDATE AND PARTICIPATE! Freed could run on the bitter players with long memories platform. I know he'd get at least 4 or 5 votes based on the forum posts! Issler
Elektrea SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.02.06 01:03:00 - [10] how did issler even get on the CSM anyways ----------

John Declan Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.02.06 01:24:00 - [11] Originally by: Elektrea how did issler even get on the CSM anyways By the time honored process called "voting."
Niskin Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.10 21:59:00 - [12] Originally by: Issler Dainze When I decided to volunteer to participate in the CSM (and was surprised by being elected) I did it to represent a part of the player population I hadn't seen represented before. (The semi-casual but committed industrialist that may or may not be in a player corporation and likely lives in empire-ish) I think I am doing a reasonable job doing that. Originally by: CSM Minutes Issler raised the point of carebears in 0.0 { the current system doesn't seem to cater to allowing established alliances to allow them in. CCP is trying to find ways to get non PvP alliances/corps out there and be useful to those alliances. Originally by: CSM Minutes Issler thinks that alliances should build more infrastructure to improve the sov of their space which in turn would give them unique abilities (e.g. monuments or ship repainting) { current system is not a serious commitment to live there. So what EVE needs is more carebears in 0.0 and custom paint jobs? I love the use of the word "cater" there, it really shows your gross misunderstanding of EVE. EVE doesn't cater to anybody, period. It presents opportunities and challenges and allows the players to make the most or least of both. If you want easier access to 0.0 as an industrialist you need to find a way to make your organization valuable to the entities living there or you need to add a combat division to your alliance. In general the entities that live there now have already solved the issues you would attempt to solve for them. That is why EVE doesn't "cater" to industrialists who want access to 0.0. It expects them to use diplomacy or combat to get there and it's not EVE's fault if they can't or don't want to do so. Your hatred for BRUCE has blinded you from the beauty of what it provided. Sure in the end we failed, but up until then we accomplished many things. EVE presented us the opportunity to try those things and it also allowed for us to fail when we made bad decisions or faced a stronger opponent. That is how it should be. The game doesn't need to "cater" to anybody, it provides risk and reward and manages them quite well.
Issler Dainze	Posted - 2009.02.11 18:39:00 - [13] You can always take single comments out of context to distort reality. I have no desire to make Eve carebear heaven. I do however see that much of Eve is empty and this tells me something should change. CCP recognizes that and some of those comments were part of the "brainstorming" conversations that occured in the CCP meetings. What the folks that think PvPing is only about blowing someone up need to realize is that PvP can also occur in the markets and be every bit as "brutal" in its own way. One thing Eve has that is truly unique and clearly a major focus is its economy, even to the point of having a full time economist. So sorry big badda boom types, but Eve is also about mining and building things to make a profit. You might want to call folks the focus on that carebears and pretend they don't matter but clearly CCP has always felt otherwise. As for missing the point of BRUCE, we liked everyting about BRUCE but the leadership. Sadly there is no game mechanic change that could address that. Issler
Issler Dainze	Posted - 2009.02.11 18:42:00 - [14] Originally by: NiskinThe game doesn't need to "cater" to anybody, it provides risk and reward and manages them quite well.[/quote Oh, and the game DOES need to cater to someone, hopefully a lot of someones. If it didn't no one would play and CCP would have to shut it down. Issler
Niskin Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.12 15:09:00 - [15] Originally by: Issler Dainze I do however see that much of Eve is empty and this tells me something should change. If you mean sov mechanics need a bit of adjustment then I agree. If you mean that it should be made more safe to encourage more carebears out there then I disagree. That space is empty because somebody, who used to live there, doesn't anymore. Most of the time they don't live there anymore because somebody else kicked them out. Empty space in EVE is an opportunity waiting to be filled Originally by: Issler Dainze What the folks that think PvPing is only about blowing someone up need to realize is that PvP can also occur in the markets and be every bit as "brutal" in its own way. One thing Eve has that is truly unique and clearly a major focus is its economy, even to the point of having a full time economist. So sorry big badda boom types, but Eve is also about mining and building things to make a profit. You might want to call folks the focus on that carebears and pretend they don't matter but clearly CCP has always felt otherwise. I'm well aware of what goes on in the markets. Many of my fellow corp members have gotten rich beyond my wildest dreams doing market pvp. They've even explained it to the rest of us to try and help us make money like they do. Market trading is arguably the most profitable activity in the game that doesn't require POS's or living in dangerous space. Here's the issue though... I hate trading, I hate it with the fire of a thousand suns. I've dabbled with it and I just hate doing it, my brain gets angry whenever I buy or sell anything for a purpose other than building a ship or clearing hangar space for cash. So I choose not to do it. The result of which is that I'm not very well off. I'm unlikely to move into cap ships and I don't own any neat faction ships. Does that mean that I think trading should change, just because I don't enjoy it? No I don't. It's well balanced and functional for lots of people. Those people will continue to get richer while I get by on datacores and missions. I don't have access to riches like theirs because of a choice I made, and I can accept that. Access to 0.0 is no different. It takes sacrifice and commitment to live out there. It takes strong leadership and hard decisions to survive in that environment. Those who choose not to play like that have made a choice that will deny them a reasonable chance at living in that space. I don't see why CCP should change what's been working so well just because some players want reward without any risk. ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot.
Niskin Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.12 15:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Issler Dainze Originally by: Niskin The game doesn't need to "cater" to anybody, it provides risk and reward and manages them quite well. Oh, and the game DOES need to cater to someone, hopefully a lot of someones. If it didn't no one would play and CCP would have to shut it down. Issler No, it doesn't need to cater to anyone. It needs to provide challenges and rewards, opportunities and consequences, the things that keep people interested in trying and help them learn when they fail. Catering is having things handed to you, EVE doesn't operate that way. ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot.
Scomi Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:48:00 - [17] I'm not really sure in what dictionary "catering" is defined as "having things handed to you", but it's not a very good one. To "cater" is to provide or supply something desirable to people. Anyone who's hired a caterer for a party knows they don't just hand over those giant cheese platters for nothing (hooray for Monterey Jack!). If Eve didn't "cater" to subscribers there wouldn't be anyone posting on this board about catering... or anything else.
Scomi Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:58:00 - [18] If I had 100 ISK for every single-sentence "How did Issler get elected?" post... I'd be able to open an ice cream shop in every station in every Empire system... and probably a few dozen in 0.0. She was elected the same way everyone else was... but I see some other people have already explaned how this works. The McSkanky "mystery" is solved! Woo woo!!! This is most likely asking for waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much but I'll do it anyway (I'm goofy that way!): Can someone spell out specifically what Issler has done and/or not done and/or said and/or eaten... or whatever... that's really chapped your pod? But wait! There's more!!! Then can someone (preferably the same "someone") even go completely nusto bananas and specifically back up their "complaint" with a good reason why Issler is wrong about what she ate... or whatever... and why they have a much better idea of what she should have eaten... or whatever. Maybe she should have ordered pizza instead of eating that giant cheese platter from the caterers. Five paragraphs of personal insults are great and all but "complaints" make a little more sense when you... well... let folks know what you're "complaining" about. Specifically! I know I'm a little slow, but the only thing McSpanky mentions specifically in his post is that he THINKS Issler is "complaining" about war dec's. I really wish he'd quoted this "complaint", it must be quite a ham-doozy to have gotten his implants in such a pickle! I can't seem to find it in either of the threads he mentions. Oh yeah! It would be super-dooper helpful too if he could list the quote where Issler claims to be making an "official statement" about "policies" on "behalf" of all CSM's. Pretty, pretty pleeeeeease! But even if she did complain, lemmie get this straight... you're complaining about someone complaining? Did I get it? Just wondering. And "complaining" is "shameful".... how... again? I know McSkanky MUST have carrrrrrrefully studied each and every post in that second thread he's all bonkers discombobulated about, so he for sure saw the posts there from another CSM. As McSkanky is sooooo very concerned about CSM's acting "respectable" at all times, I'm sure he's absolutely, ferociously indignant, like crazy space monkey bread mad about the "shameful" behavior of this CSM as well!!!! This CSM not only takes personal potshots at other players but even makes fun of an alliance name too!!!! Not only that, at one point he seems to say that he's using a war dec as a bullying tactic to influence another CSM (he later says he was just being "sarcastic"). I know this is teeny-tiny potatoes (like those little round red ones, I just looooove those!) next to someone "complaining" gasp! TWICE!!!! faint! but I know McSkanky would most certainly agree, it's still not the least little teensy bit "respectable" and might even be a full-blown case of "appalling" "misrepresentation"! ... or at the very least, "poor smack and poor taste". I'm sure Happy... errr... I mean McSkanky... is busy pounding his wooden spoons on the keyboard right now, typing up a long-winded (but extremely vague) post expressing his dismay about this other CSM's outrageous outrage!!!! ... or maybe just "how did issler get ellcted? llololoololololololololol!!!!!111"
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.02.12 20:48:00 - [19] Originally by: McSkanky http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=989558 Shame on CSM member Issler Dainze for making what appears to be an official sounding post but is in fact just a thread where she is complaining about a war dec that may interrupt her low scale care bearing efforts in EVE. As a representative of the EVE community, Issler has a duty to appear when using the CSM tag as a respectable member who understands the game, and to honor and respect (if not necessarily follow) the various means and methods players use to enjoy their EVE experience. As this isnFt the first time Issler has complained on the eve forums about a war dec against her alliance (see: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=932882 ) I truly think the CSM should censure Issler for her poor smack and her poor taste; as well as besmirching the CSM itself by appearing to be making official statement policies on their behalf. Obviously, Issler Dainze is one of those unique individuals able to make enemies everywhere she goes. The simple fact of her election to the CSM remains a mystery, probably just the ignorant masses voting for someone towards the top of the ballot. The fact that she continues to use this character to make non CSM related posts on the forums, when she obviously has other characters she can just as easily use is shameful (see the recent commentary within the alliance tournament where Happy Joymaker blew up her ship, receiving 3rd damage despite being jammed for 1/3 of the fight by the enemy fleet { shame Happy didnFt get her pod, but what would one expect in a non sensor boosted BS). Her CSM vote count of 666 appears to be oddly appropriate! So, although poor smack on the forums here is obviously not something one can control (Goons, Pandemic Legion, and others can obviously understand what that would lead to within their own ranks!) the misrepresentation of CSM is truly appalling. As outlined in the 2007 EVE Fanfest, CSM exists to provide a means of communication from the players to CCP to provide a high level of player feedback to CCP, as well as a means and method for the players to organize communications of issues to CCP. Is this truly the form and level of communication we want CCP to have from the CSM? CSM members should vote a Resolution of Censure on Issler Dainze for her posts. Issler Dainze has done wrong. The CSM body can do right by condemning her conduct and showing the player base of EVE, as well as the staff at CCP that such actions should not be allowed to stand unchallenged. Crime and Punishment called... they what there troll back. =============== CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre www.shadowcadre.com ===============
Alekseyev Karrde Noir.	Posted - 2009.02.13 18:16:00 - [20] ffs dont give him to us...

Niskin Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.13 21:01:00 - [21] Originally by: Scomi Can someone... Sure why not. Lets fire up the way back machine and set it to Fall 2006. I had just started playing EVE and had a few aquiantances that were helping me get started. We decided that we wanted to join a player corp together and so one of them went hunting. After a week or so that person discovered TADA-O and we all decided to join. TADA-O was a member of the BRUCE alliance and as they were war decced by MC we ended up joining a week later when it ended. Initially things seemed fine and with how green I was I wouldn't have really noticed if they weren't. TADA-O wasn't really organized, in that they had no real forums and a public yahoo group, containing little information, was the only out of game resource. I assumed this was normal, until I found the link for the BRUCE alliance forums and signed up. What I found was that this corp was the member of a very active up and coming alliance. Within a week or two I had absorbed everything I could from the alliance forums and began participating in alliance ops. It didn't take long to notice that TADA-O was IN the alliance but didn't really DO anything. Sure they offered reasonably priced ships to alliance members but that was pretty much it. Most members sat in high sec and mined, nobody went on ops. Except for a few exceptions I was always the only TADA-O member participating with the alliance. A little more time went by and the issue became even more obvious. We had a spy issue, that spy ended up being in our corp. During war decs the people getting popped due to carelessness were mainly in our corp. After a particularly exciting pvp op that I attended with Xenios Alfar and Katamarino of Blazing Angels I decided it was time to move. I joined Blazing Angels so as to remain with BRUCE but also to be in a corp with people who had the same goals as the alliance. Things seemed quiet for a while, but it didn't take long. BRUCE moved to Syndicate in the PC9 cluster and was doing well. TADA-O had grown and seemed to be improving at least slightly. Then one day it happened, at least half her corp rejected her management and left to form Happy Hour Mining and Industry (HOMI) which then joined BRUCE. It was sometime around then that BRUCE leadership discovered that Issler had paid Huzzah to allow her to move her freighter around Syndicate. Huzzah were our primary opponents at the time, major red box action. I don't remember if that was the final action that got her kicked out but it wasn't long after that when TADA-O was ejected from BRUCE. Since the Freespacers were essentially part of TADA-O they were ejected too. Several members got together and decided they wanted to stay in BRUCE so we brought them over to Blazing Angels. The pattern repeats itself because Issler either doesn't want to lead or can't lead, I don't know which one it is. I don't actually hate her or anything, I'm just frustrated by her ways. She says she parted ways with BRUCE long ago but if you EVE-Search "issler bruce" you'll see her mouth had some difficulty letting it go. EVE is a game where any action you take can be a catalyst for some other action. Even naming your alliance something you find funny can bother somebody else and make you a target. From my point of view she fails to understand this concept or at least that this concept is by design. When we war decced the accord she tried to paint us as pirates to the locals, which failed. In truth we were just a corp with a beef and we used the war dec system to pursue it. Issler made a comment in local while we were there, along the lines of "I give my members ships and leave them alone, why is that bad?" My answer to that is, it's not bad but it's only part of leading a corp. I'd recommend taking some of that money and doing some Agony PvP classes together as a corp. Not because you plan to PvP but because, in EVE, somebody else's plans may force you to.
Maxmillion Ex Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.02.14 00:09:00 - [22] Originally by: Niskin ... Wow. Just wow. So let me get this straight. Issler led a corp which you think wasn't involved enough in an alliance, and a spy made it in which did most of his damage to her corp. She paid pirates once who were not Huzzah to get minerals needed for BRUCE ships. You don't remember what else she could have done to get kicked out, but her corp was. Fast forward to today. You don't think her way of running a corp is best. Cool, but you still havn't said what she did to you. As far as reporting you as pirates in local goes, more than just her reported you, and you did kill at least one ship I know of that had absolutely no affiliation to us. Her style of gameplay isn't for you. That's FINE. There's a good number of people who DO like styles other than yours, even some who prefer to fly with Issler. Tada-O is about having fun in Eve. If people don't want to concentrate on PvP, we do our best to make sure they don't have to. If they do, they're given the opportunity to explore that was well. Tada-O and the Honda Accord are about the freedom to enjoy Eve however WE want to. The only limiting case here being downright griefing, which if you've spent a day in Tada-O, you'd know that it's just not the type of people we are. Under different circumstances we might have gotten along, or at least had fun pew pewing eachother. I'm much less the industrialist... but I only saw huge blobs from FOOM I think Scomi's request for specifics still stands, but I don't know, your post might have been what she was looking for. P.S. Can we get this moved out of Jita Park? Publicity is nice and all, but I'm pretty sure this doesn't belong here.
Scomi Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.02.14 01:03:00 - [23] Woooo! Thanks for the response! Lemmie see if I can sum allllllll that stuff up. I'll do my best because, well, I'm sorry but I have no idea who the people you mentioned are, or what "Syndicate", "PC9 cluster", "red box action" are... or why those things are relevant. - 3 years ago you joined Issler's corp and stayed with it for two months. So, I'm not exactly sure why the lack of "out of game resource[s]" was so disturbing since you didn't stay long and were able to easily find other sources of info. - You were disappointed that TADA-O members didn't participate in many "ops". You don't mention how many members the corp had at that time or why this was a such a serious concern. You said they provided ships but don't say what else a industrial corp in the alliance should have doing. - There was a spy in the corp - I find it hard to believe that this was the one and only spy ever to slink into the alliance. You don't mention how this one spy was particularly devastating to the alliance. - Issler paid a rival alliance to allow her to move one freighter (you don't mention if this was a one-time move or if she was cutting them checks and sending them giant cheese platters every day for months - nor do you mention how this damaged the alliance). - Issler leaves BRUCE and "the pattern repeats itself"? I'm not sure how this is possible when her corp was no longer part of the alliance. I took your advice and searched "issler bruce" but really can't find much. All the recent posts relate to the "revenge" actions of the past month or so. In all of 2008 there are a total of 8 threads where she mentions BRUCE at all and 3 of those threads were just corp recruitment pitches. Maybe you could help me out and point out the horribly awful, unbelievably hurtful things she's said about BRUCE, because I'm having trouble finding it. "...she tried to paint us as pirates to the locals," I'm really not sure what "locals" you're talking about here and why you'd be concerned about what these "locals" think. So then, let me know if I got this right: Former BRUCE people have spent three years being upset about this "beef": Freighter move payoff, one spy, lack of ops participation and mean forum posts. Certain members have spent an absolutely astounding amount of time, resources and energy during those three years to seek revenge for the freighter move payoff, one spy, lack of ops participation and mean forum posts. They sent a spy to spend a month or so pretending to be a tournament team member in order to "assassinate" her. He blows up her ship in the second round of the tournament (the team still wins the match, however). Then they launch a war dec, assemble and move dozens of ships from one end of the galaxy to the other for a week and blow up a few ships and some stations. Then finally, start a ridiculous forum smear campaign using drive-by, bomb-throwing alts (IE: this thread). I'm sorry, but unless I'm missing something, I'd have to disagree about who's having "some difficulty letting it go."
Issler Dainze	Posted - 2009.02.14 01:36:00 - [24] I've requested this thread be moved to COAD as it seems to fit the nature of that forum better. Issler

CCP Mitnal C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.02.14 02:34:00 - [25] I don't believe this is a better fit for CAOD, we have dealt with issues relating to questions of character of CSM members in the past in the CSM forums and it's for the best they remain here. Mitnal Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Email

Issler Dainze	Posted - 2009.02.14 07:49:00 - [26] OK then, To the points made. No spies where EVER proven to be in any corp of mine. In fact several excellent members (Teebee and Skior) became so upset at BRUCE trying to affect the normal operation of Tada O that they became outspoken and accused of spying. As a result they left our corp. We never lost half our corp. A seriously random pilot named John Caldwell took advantage of a time in my life where RL limited my online time. He at one point demanded I let him take over my org. I told him what he could do with the suggestion. He then told a whole pile o'h lies about how I was leaving Eve and how he had really been in charge. As a result we lost about 20% to happy hour mining. Good ridance. Last I heard John had left Eve. When we left BRUCE I deliberately planned a life as far away from them as possible. After a lot of exploration we ended up in Molden Heath. Since then we have had NO interaction with them. Freed (whose name I deliberately misspell) managed to get an alt, Happy Joymaker into BEEP for the tourny. I had no idea Happy was an alt because, I could care less about Freed and BRUCE and how FOOM screwed all those that were committed to BRUCE. Yes, when Niskin was in Tada O we had a very sad web site. It is sad again as my hosting org is going out of business. Guilty as charged. The bottom line, over 120 folks currently make BEEP their home. Easily triple that would return if asked. We are three years old and BEEP has now lasted longer than BRUCE. BEEP is not about me, it is about helping anyone in Eve that wants help to mine, to mission, to explore, to build and soon to fight. 666 pilots of Eve voted that they believe me when I say that. So looking at this in the harsh light of reality. Some folks decided corps should be about the members and not the leaders. I agreed to organize that experiement. Now we have become an alliance that takes that idea to the next level. I ran to be part of the CSM to try and make sure that idea can florish. I don't use my position in the CSM to prohibit other paths in Eve. I just try and make sure the "carebears" can have a place at the table. So about the current conflict. We've lost a several billion ISK POS network as a result of this grudge. I have not proposed a change to the war mechanism or any other game mechanism. Eve is harsh and "A-holes" with grudges deserve their outlets for their disfunctions. To encourage the folks I choose to represent, I can tell you that there are alternatives to balance the equation. FOOM now has debris fields where several cap ships once where. If you think you are being bullied please realize there exists in Eve ways to turn the karma wheel. So all I can say is BEEP survives, I remain committed to the folks I think elected me and life in the 'verse goes on. Issler
Niskin Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.14 16:43:00 - [27] Originally by: Maxmillion Ex Wow. Just wow. So let me get this straight. Issler led a corp which you think wasn't involved enough in an alliance, and a spy made it in which did most of his damage to her corp. So you're saying that the spy did damage to TADA-O and farther down Issler says there were never any spies. Teebee was a spy and a **head, I can't confirm much past that. Originally by:** Maxmillion Ex She paid pirates once who were not Huzzah to get minerals needed for BRUCE ships. You don't remember what else she could have done to get kicked out, but her corp was. Fast forward to today. You don't think her way of running a corp is best. Cool, but you still havn't said what she did to you. Fire Mantle or Huzzah, whoever, it doesn't matter. Rather than asking for help from people in her own alliance she embarrassed us by showing weakness to our enemies. TADA-O was the weakest link and things like that made it visible to our opponents. So if you want to know what she did exactly, she embarrassed an alliance that I was proud of. Originally by: Maxmillion Ex As far as reporting you as pirates in local goes, more than just her reported you, and you did kill at least one ship I know of that had absolutely no affiliation to us. Killboard shows one Punisher killed in Illamur that was not from your alliance. Killboard comment reports him as a pirate. Originally by: Maxmillion Ex Her style of gameplay isn't for you. That's FINE. There's a good number of people who DO like styles other than yours, even some who prefer to fly with Issler. Tada-O is about having fun in Eve. If people don't want to concentrate on PvP, we do our best to make sure they don't have to. If they do, they're given the opportunity to explore that was well. Tada-O and the Honda Accord are about the freedom to enjoy Eve however WE want to. The only limiting case here being downright griefing, which if you've spent a day in Tada-O, you'd know that it's just not the type of people we are. Under different circumstances we might have gotten along, or at least had fun pew pewing eachother. I'm much less the industrialist... but I only saw huge blobs from FOOM Play how you want, I don't care. I didn't start this thread, that's not my title up there. My issue is clear if you read my first post. I don't think Issler's involvement with the CSM will improve the game. If she wants to make suggestions about high sec and industry and trading that's fine but keep it out of low sec and 0.0 issues. Anything she suggests that will help non pvpers get access to 0.0 will hurt the game rather than help it. ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot.
Niskin Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.14 16:59:00 - [28] Originally by: Scomi Woooo! Thanks for the response! Lemmie see if I can sum allllllll that stuff up. I'll do my best because, well, I'm sorry but I have no idea who the people you mentioned are, or what "Syndicate", "PC9 cluster", "red box action" are... or why those things are relevant. No disrespect intended but if you don't know what those things are you probably won't understand much of this. Floofing around in high sec is a whole different game than holding and defending space. Originally by: Scomi - 3 years ago you joined Issler's corp and stayed with it for two months. So, I'm not exactly sure why the lack of "out of game resource[s]" was so disturbing since you didn't stay long and were able to easily find other sources of info (and again, IFm not sure what this has to do with anything). It shows a lack of organization and a lack of leadership. I found the information in spite of her, rather than because of her. That's the difference. Originally by: Scomi - You were disappointed that TADA-O members didn't participate in many "ops". You don't mention how many members the corp had at that time (were there quite a few miners?) or why this was such a serious concern. You said they provided ships (somehow, even without joining the ops) but don't say what else an industrial corp in the alliance should have been doing. BRUCE was a unique alliance, being "just a miner" was discouraged. We tried to educate all members. TADA-O didn't "provide" ships they sold them at slightly below market prices to any alliance member. Considering that many corps already did this for their own members the service was only marginally useful. Originally by: Scomi - There was a spy in the corp - I find it hard to believe that this was the one and only spy ever to slink into the alliance. You don't mention how this single spy was particularly devastating to the alliance. Devastating... no. Embarrassing... yes. Originally by: Scomi - Issler paid a rival alliance (though, there seems to be some dispute about who, exactly, was paid) to allow her to move one freighter (you don't mention if this was a one-time move or if she was cutting them checks and sending them giant cheese platters every day for months - nor do you mention how this damaged the alliance). I'm not the alliance historian, I don't have every specific detail. She chose to pay our primary enemies to get something done rather than looking to her own alliance for assistance. Again, embarrassment... yes. Originally by: Scomi - Issler leaves BRUCE and "the pattern repeats itself"? I'm not sure how this is possible when her corp was no longer part of the alliance, or how you could know this, long after youFd left her corp. Kicked out, just to clarify. Removed due to too many incidents that were counter to what BRUCE was trying to achieve. Originally by: Scomi "...she tried to paint us as pirates to the locals," I'm really not sure what "locals" you're talking about here or why you'd be concerned about what these "locals" think. Anybody who would potentially want to shoot us is something we pay attention to. The locals in question would be the people in the Molden Intel channel. If you aren't in it you probably should be, intel channels are good. Continued in next post... ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot.
Niskin Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.14 17:06:00 - [29] Originally by: Scomi So then, let me know if I got this right: Former BRUCE people have spent three years being upset about this "beef": Freighter move payoff, one spy, lack of ops participation and mean forum posts. Certain members have spent an absolutely astounding amount of time, resources and energy during those three years to seek revenge for the freighter move payoff, one spy, lack of ops participation and mean forum posts. They sent a spy to spend a month or so pretending to be a tournament team member in order to "assassinate" her. He blows up her ship in the second round of the tournament (the team still wins the match, however). Then they launch a war dec, assemble and move dozens of ships from one end of the galaxy to the other for a week and blow up a few ships and some stations. Then finally, start a ridiculous forum smear campaign using drive-by, bomb-throwing alts (IE: this thread). It wasn't a lot of time, when you are organized and motivated things go much easier. Some people saw an opportunity to take revenge on a person they disliked and they did so. Originally by: Scomi All this for something that happened 3 years ago in an alliance that no longer exists. I'm sorry, but unless I'm missing something, I'd have to disagree about who's having "some difficulty letting it go." What you are missing is the same thing I've been trying to point out in this thread. EVE is a sandbox and there are no recess ladies in some areas of the sandbox. If somebody wants to shoot at you because of something you did 3 years ago they can. Heck if they want to shoot at you for no reason they can. ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot.
Niskin Minmatar The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.14 17:24:00 - [30] Originally by: Issler Dainze OK then, To the points made. No spies where EVER proven to be in any corp of mine. In fact several excellent members (Teebee and Skior) became so upset at BRUCE trying to affect the normal operation of Tada O that they became outspoken and accused of spying. As a result they left our corp. Teebee was an a-hole, I'm surprised you would defend him. Skiorh didn't bother me, he wasn't around much anyway since he would leave from time to go be a pirate. Originally by: Issler Dainze We never lost half our corp. A seriously random pilot named John Caldwell took advantage of a time in my life where RL limited my online time. He at one point demanded I let him take over my org. I told him what he could do with the suggestion. He then told a whole pile o'h lies about how I was leaving Eve and how he had really been in charge. As a result we lost about 20% to happy hour mining. Good ridance. Last I heard John had left Eve. Nice attempt at spin. John Caldwell was motivated, active and understood what it meant to be part of an alliance. If your online time was limited and he wasn't filling in then who was? I'll take your word on the percentage although if we are talking about active members who were actually in Syndicate participating then I bet my number is more accurate. Originally by: Issler Dainze When we left BRUCE I deliberately planned a life as far away from them as possible. After a lot of exploration we ended up in Molden Heath. Since then we have had NO interaction with them. Freed (whose name I deliberately misspell) managed to get an alt, Happy Joymaker into BEEP for the tourny. I had no idea Happy was an alt because, I could care less about Freed and BRUCE and how FOOM screwed all those that were committed to BRUCE. Yes, when Niskin was in Tada O we had a very sad web site. It is sad again as my hosting org is going out of business. Guilty as charged. The bottom line, over 120 folks currently make BEEP their home. Easily triple that would return if asked. We are three years old and BEEP has now lasted longer than BRUCE. BEEP is not about me, it is about helping anyone in Eve that wants help to mine, to mission, to explore, to build and soon to fight. 666 pilots of Eve voted that they believe me when I say that. So looking at this in the harsh light of reality. Some folks decided corps should be about the members and not the leaders. I agreed to organize that experiement. Now we have become an alliance that takes that idea to the next level. I ran to be part of the CSM to try and make sure that idea can florish. I don't use my position in the CSM to prohibit other paths in Eve. I just try and make sure the "carebears" can have a place at the table. So about the current conflict. We've lost a several billion ISK POS network as a result of this grudge. I have not proposed a change to the war mechanism or any other game mechanism. Eve is harsh and "A-holes" with grudges deserve their outlets for their disfunctions. To encourage the folks I choose to represent, I can tell you that there are alternatives to balance the equation. FOOM now has debris fields where several cap ships once where. If you think you are being bullied please realize there exists in Eve ways to turn the karma wheel. So all I can say is BEEP survives, I remain committed to the folks I think elected me and life in the 'verse goes on. Issler Kicked out for being the weakest link, just want to clarify that again. Anyway that's fine, you do what you want to do. I'm not telling you that you shouldn't. What I am saying is that the two suggestions you made, which I quoted in my first post, were dumb and don't mesh with what EVE is. It makes me question your contributions to the CSM. What exactly is it that carebears need so badly? ------------- I am the n00b that time forgot.



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