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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Forceflow
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.02.04 13:46:00 -
[31]
I'm all for the removal of T1 loot.
Missioners complain about their income being affected by removing T1s.
CCP might be able to compensate by increasing mission-npc only bounties and tweaking the mission rewards to increase the isk gain.
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Ricdic
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.04 13:47:00 -
[32]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Ricdic Make Mining Interactive
Whilst my idea of implementation was probably poor the core aspect of making mining interactive will drastically reduce the ability to farm or at least benefit those who are at the computer far more than those who aren't. I posted that idea article just under 3 years ago and it still holds true mostly. Shame the images were removed but they weren't anything special anyway
We discussed interactive mining with CCP if you read the minutes
im gettin there :) |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.04 13:51:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Forceflow I'm all for the removal of T1 loot.
Missioners complain about their income being affected by removing T1s.
CCP might be able to compensate by increasing mission-npc only bounties and tweaking the mission rewards to increase the isk gain.
To be perfectly honest, I think mission rewards actually need to be brought down to be more in line with other empire only efforts. |
Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.04 13:55:00 -
[34]
Does that 40% number include T1 items used specifically for compressing and moving minerals long distances? I personally build and reprocesses many billions of isk worth of T1 items each week for the sole purpose of moving, that doesn't mean the minerals to build those guns originally came from loot.
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Joss Sparq
Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.04 13:56:00 -
[35]
Originally by: YouGotRipped Edited by: YouGotRipped on 04/02/2009 11:39:43
Originally by: Joss Sparq For a start, take a plunge into the deep end and completely remove Tech I modules from NPC dropped loot.
To be clear, where X is unnamed Tech I loot and Y is named Tech I loot and I get a (theoretical) loot drop consisting of "X, X, X, Y, Y" then remove all instances of X to resolve a drop of "Y, Y", instead.
I don't know if/how the meta level of loot which remains should be adjusted, that is another issue.
I'm not too sure replacing T1 with named items solves much, unless there's also less named items being dropped sooner or later there will be a lot of named items on the market that no one buys, price will drop to the point it is profitable to refine named items, and we're back to square one.
If on the other hand the meta of the named items is that good, it will have a negative effect on T2 production, invention.
Mmmm, well I wasn't very eloquent either. I can only apologize: I spent four hours in the blazing sun today waiting for roadside assistance to show up when our car broke down. The first guy who arrived couldn't fix it, then the first tow truck to arrive broke down and then the second tow truck got lost trying to finding us - so I'm a little "out of it" right now, lol.
However, maybe something summarized more along these lines:
Originally by: Bad Bobby My suggestion, therefore, is:
1. Remove all T1 loot from drops. Players can make it, NPCs don't need to drop it. This helps entry level industrialists and also reduces the amount of vanilla loot that gets automatically reprocessed by mission runners.
(Not touching the macro miner topic though, as I would rather not get bogged down with people beating the dead horse instead of discussing the topic of the thread)
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Increase mining yields ten fold, and or allow compression style play like the Rorq into empire.
Or let the Orca compress only the abundant high security ores.
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Confuzer
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2009.02.04 13:57:00 -
[36]
First fix macro'ers.
Then worry about this ****. Imho ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec
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Posted - 2009.02.04 14:00:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Increase mining yields ten fold, and or allow compression style play like the Rorq into empire.
I think this is something along the lines of a solution.
Mining should be a planing and equipment game. For this the roid distribution should be what creates the game.
Belts should be consisting of roids of different sizes. These should be exhautible but respawn after one hour. THis would be to avoid macro miners to some extend.
This would remove the stripping of belts, and the limiting factor would become population active in the belts. Territorialism would also increase, and player behaviour would create some meaningfull and interesting gameplay.
To compare. Real Life. Its not the availability of goldmines, its the tech and manpower and the logistics that a limiting factor. This should also be the case in EVE to improve game experience..
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.04 14:06:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Joss Sparq
Or let the Orca compress only the abundant high security ores.
I think that is a decent compromise.
Basically what we need is the ability to extract and transport mex to trit on the order of double what we have now.
That is literally impossible given current mechanics and gameplay in place. |
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec
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Posted - 2009.02.04 14:33:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Joss Sparq
Or let the Orca compress only the abundant high security ores.
I think that is a decent compromise.
Basically what we need is the ability to extract and transport mex to trit on the order of double what we have now.
That is literally impossible given current mechanics and gameplay in place.
If something like that is done it will encourage closed gaming, and destroy the interaction and market.
If you need the minerals bad enough you should be willing to pay enough.. If no one ships it to you then your price is simply to low.
The SOLO, I mine it myslf attitude is a huge problem in EVE. This is what the doctor is refering to in the fanfest video. Oppertunity cost.
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cpt Mark
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Posted - 2009.02.04 14:41:00 -
[40]
Probably about 10% of Eve players are miners, and 60% are mission runners?
So i'm personally not at all suprised really. |
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.04 14:57:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Joss Sparq
Or let the Orca compress only the abundant high security ores.
I think that is a decent compromise.
Basically what we need is the ability to extract and transport mex to trit on the order of double what we have now.
That is literally impossible given current mechanics and gameplay in place.
If something like that is done it will encourage closed gaming, and destroy the interaction and market.
If you need the minerals bad enough you should be willing to pay enough.. If no one ships it to you then your price is simply to low.
The SOLO, I mine it myslf attitude is a huge problem in EVE. This is what the doctor is refering to in the fanfest video. Oppertunity cost.
You can setup the system that not only encourages group effort but also requires it. It's not that hard really.
Add another ship to the logistics chain and add foreman bonuses from the Orca. The Hulks rip minerals into cans, the Orca tractors them in, X Ship then takes from the Orca and compresses it into neatly transportable blocks.
Remove existing static belts and add in large belts which require actual probe exploration, add smaller planetary belts which use the on board scanner for your solo miners.
Increase mining yield for all low end roids and in different ratios. Meaning reducing the amount of clutter your low end and high asteroids yeild. What I mean by this is technically reducing the amount of trit you get in scordite, or plag, etc.. and making the roids more evenly focused across all empire space.
At the same time introduce perma loss melting. Meaning no matter what your skill or refining equipment there will be loss of material. Make it stagger as the meta level of the item increases, meaning meta 1 items lose the most compared to melting a meta 4. And even then, even at the top tier, there is loss somewhere.
To counter this for your null sec alliances, introduce a new POS and outpost item which allows near perfect melting no matter what the item. No anchor ability in empire.
Then after that, see how things role and start mussing with the drop rates on things like drone alloys, etc...
This is not that hard of a problem, it just requires some very huge fundamental changes to the game that to be frank, is going to **** off at least one section of the player base no matter what you do. Better to just get it over and done with, like ripping a band aid off. |
Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:02:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Forceflow I'm all for the removal of T1 loot.
Missioners complain about their income being affected by removing T1s.
CCP might be able to compensate by increasing mission-npc only bounties and tweaking the mission rewards to increase the isk gain.
Why would people move to 0 when the rewards in empire are either similar or higher? Mission running should never have been boosted, it needs to be nerfed once again and loot needs to be either taxed more or refined minerals from loot needs to be nerfed.
Kazzac, nice idea's. I assume you got them from what CCP plans to do in a year or two. |
Forceflow
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:12:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Super Whopper Why would people move to 0 when the rewards in empire are either similar or higher? Mission running should never have been boosted, it needs to be nerfed once again and loot needs to be either taxed more or refined minerals from loot needs to be nerfed.
Kazzac, nice idea's. I assume you got them from what CCP plans to do in a year or two.
I just got off work awhile ago so cut me some slack. (Reading those minutes when brain drained is quite terrible.)
More like I was responding tha their playstyle/income be nerfed.
However on reading further and thinking abit more, Kazzac's right. Missions are a very big isk tap and should be reduced.
However CCP has spoken about implementation of Agent decay and migration. That should help reduce the tap and drive players to other, presumably, low-sec agents.
But thats another problem and its really OT here.
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Sturack
Minmatar The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:17:00 -
[44]
Dear CCP, The mineral market being 40% recycled material is the mission runner/ratters' fault. Their lazyness has driven the market to just that. You can't fix stupid. People will sell their rat drops for pennies just to keep their assets clean of "junk". Not knowing the mineral value of the "junk", a pilot will sell the item for sometimes 0.99 isk. If an item recycles into only 1 tri, that is 3.96 isk 4x what they sold it for. Faction Ammo and Best named mods can be bought at 10% of market value.
----------------------------------------------------------------- PVP would be silly in a pod fitted with sticks and stones.
Support your local miners |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:17:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Forceflow
Originally by: Super Whopper Why would people move to 0 when the rewards in empire are either similar or higher? Mission running should never have been boosted, it needs to be nerfed once again and loot needs to be either taxed more or refined minerals from loot needs to be nerfed.
Kazzac, nice idea's. I assume you got them from what CCP plans to do in a year or two.
I just got off work awhile ago so cut me some slack. (Reading those minutes when brain drained is quite terrible.)
More like I was responding tha their playstyle/income be nerfed.
However on reading further and thinking abit more, Kazzac's right. Missions are a very big isk tap and should be reduced.
However CCP has spoken about implementation of Agent decay and migration. That should help reduce the tap and drive players to other, presumably, low-sec agents.
But thats another problem and its really OT here.
Not really when you think about it for an over arching perspective.
Many people complain about lack of ability to enter into markets because of saturation. The markets in places only exist because of the demand. IE, Sobieski exists as a high meta market because mid level mission runners are there farming Caldari Navy for standings. The same goes for every other market hub (market hub from a sales production standpoint) all the way on up to your level 4's
So it stands to reason to create new markets, new opportunities, etc.. we need to spread the player base out a little more. Agent decay is a good step towards driving your mission farmers out of empire and into low and null sec.
...however at the same time I think the ability to scan people out of missions needs to be upped in difficulty. Ask any decent scanner, a good skills covert ops pilot can pretty much nail a mission runner before they've even cleared the first room. |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:20:00 -
[46]
To give more precise data as the 40% was a figure I used as an overall average was 'of the top of my head' during the meeting taken from the data below.
This was the one month split for all items reprocessed measured mid-august to mid-september 2008.
Mineral || Ore% || Loot% || Drone Compounds% || Tritanium || 46% || 43% || 11% || Pyerite || 29% || 60% || 10% || Mexallon || 30% || 59% || 11%|| Isogen || 21% || 56% || 23%|| Nocxium || 18% || 32% || 51% || Zydrine || 43% || 18% || 40%|| Megacyte || 44% || 39% || 16% || Morphite || 77% || 1% || 22% ||
* Ore is minerals from the asteroid ores * loot is modules, ships, charges, drones for example. * drone compounds are loot items from rogue drones
However, whatever conclusion you draw from those stats, be careful as it does not tell you much really such as how many people were mining or running missions. The number of people running missions is massive compared to number of miners and the source per person much lower overall however it is a large diffuse source. It is a similar story for anytime a player encounters the rogue drones.
The ongoing discussion we are having internally is really around the point of to what degree a specialist profession like mining should be adversely affected by another career path where this forms only one part of their total reward/income pool.
Nothing is happening on this front for Apocrypha but feel free to discuss this and I'll keep tabs on discussion as it is an interesting topic.
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Gandanga
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:21:00 -
[47]
If mission runners are doing such a sterling job in supplying minerals to the market
Maybe they should be rewarded for this, and ecourage more missionaries, by increasing mission rat bounties and mission rewards ?.
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:23:00 -
[48]
Originally by: cpt Mark Probably about 10% of Eve players are miners, and 60% are mission runners?
So i'm personally not at all suprised really.
This
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Slade Trillgon
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:27:00 -
[49]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
The ongoing discussion we are having internally is really around the point of to what degree a specialist profession like mining should be adversely affected by another career path where this forms only one part of their total reward/income pool.
I assume you mean here that, someone like me who trained the mining skills which can only benefit me by mining, should not be excessively trumped isk wise, by someone whose skills can provide more isk by running missions and with the same skills allow them access to a whole other aspect of the game?
Slade
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat!
≡v≡ |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:29:00 -
[50]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis To give more precise data as the 40% was a figure I used as an overall average was 'of the top of my head' during the meeting taken from the data below.
This was the one month split for all items reprocessed measured mid-august to mid-september 2008.
Mineral || Ore% || Loot% || Drone Compounds% || Tritanium || 46% || 43% || 11% || Pyerite || 29% || 60% || 10% || Mexallon || 30% || 59% || 11%|| Isogen || 21% || 56% || 23%|| Nocxium || 18% || 32% || 51% || Zydrine || 43% || 18% || 40%|| Megacyte || 44% || 39% || 16% || Morphite || 77% || 1% || 22% ||
* Ore is minerals from the asteroid ores * loot is modules, ships, charges, drones for example. * drone compounds are loot items from rogue drones
However, whatever conclusion you draw from those stats, be careful as it does not tell you much really such as how many people were mining or running missions. The number of people running missions is massive compared to number of miners and the source per person much lower overall however it is a large diffuse source. It is a similar story for anytime a player encounters the rogue drones.
The ongoing discussion we are having internally is really around the point of to what degree a specialist profession like mining should be adversely affected by another career path where this forms only one part of their total reward/income pool.
Nothing is happening on this front for Apocrypha but feel free to discuss this and I'll keep tabs on discussion as it is an interesting topic.
Interesting that the minerals mostly supplied by your loot drops are also the ones most out of line in the time/reward scenario for a miner. |
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Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:31:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Super Whopper
Originally by: Forceflow I'm all for the removal of T1 loot.
Missioners complain about their income being affected by removing T1s.
CCP might be able to compensate by increasing mission-npc only bounties and tweaking the mission rewards to increase the isk gain.
Why would people move to 0 when the rewards in empire are either similar or higher? Mission running should never have been boosted, it needs to be nerfed once again and loot needs to be either taxed more or refined minerals from loot needs to be nerfed.
Kazzac, nice idea's. I assume you got them from what CCP plans to do in a year or two.
A really good point.. WHY?
Reason for going into unsecure space should be necesity. Its all about motivation.
Some things in 0,0 should be important for highsec production. A small idea that would impact this was to make all T2 and later T3 raw materials move to 0.0
The production and selling need to be in empire space. This way wealth and power distribution would make sense and player corps in empire would need to plan and access risk of ventures.
Remove spawning rats from empire. Makes salvage in empire decreasing in value.
Back to my earlier point of fixing droptables. Also balance of basic, named and T2 fittings need a big overhaul and research of the numbers.. As is the whole thing is askew..
STILL THE BEST GAME AROUND.. in spite of inherent balance flaws..
- Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:36:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Sturack Dear CCP, The mineral market being 40% recycled material is the mission runner/ratters' fault. Their lazyness has driven the market to just that. You can't fix stupid. People will sell their rat drops for pennies just to keep their assets clean of "junk". Not knowing the mineral value of the "junk", a pilot will sell the item for sometimes 0.99 isk. If an item recycles into only 1 tri, that is 3.96 isk 4x what they sold it for. Faction Ammo and Best named mods can be bought at 10% of market value.
Another good point.
The reason prices are wrong all over the boards is that there simple isnt enough players into the service sector. No real serious professional recyclers. Those that might want that job cant do it because sell and buy limits make this impossible.
We need more buy and sell orders for all skill levels. This would make a recycler and reprocessor profession viable.. It is atm very needed to fix this issue..
- Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways.
Feed your Brain:
Innovation Thread |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:46:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Another good point.
The reason prices are wrong all over the boards is that there simple isnt enough players into the service sector. No real serious professional recyclers. Those that might want that job cant do it because sell and buy limits make this impossible.
We need more buy and sell orders for all skill levels. This would make a recycler and reprocessor profession viable.. It is atm very needed to fix this issue..
Now here you are completely off base. It's been said time and time again, and other capital producers will chime in here to agree with me.
Right now, without mission loot, I would never have the mineral amounts I need on a weekly basis to keep production up of my current capital business. This consists of 1 to 2 Orcas, 1 Rorq, 2 Freighters, 1 Carrier, and around 20 modules in any given 3 week period.
Just for giggles, grab Dedaf's industrial sheet and take a look at the mineral amounts just that above requires. Now grab a miner tool and figure out how many hours in a Hulk it would require to capture that.
....yeild amounts are broken and something needs changed. But it ain't with recycling that's for damn sure. |
Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:48:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Super Whopper on 04/02/2009 15:48:42 Mininers are specialised refiners. |
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:49:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Another good point.
The reason prices are wrong all over the boards is that there simple isnt enough players into the service sector. No real serious professional recyclers. Those that might want that job cant do it because sell and buy limits make this impossible.
We need more buy and sell orders for all skill levels. This would make a recycler and reprocessor profession viable.. It is atm very needed to fix this issue..
Now here you are completely off base. It's been said time and time again, and other capital producers will chime in here to agree with me.
Right now, without mission loot, I would never have the mineral amounts I need on a weekly basis to keep production up of my current capital business. This consists of 1 to 2 Orcas, 1 Rorq, 2 Freighters, 1 Carrier, and around 20 modules in any given 3 week period.
Just for giggles, grab Dedaf's industrial sheet and take a look at the mineral amounts just that above requires. Now grab a miner tool and figure out how many hours in a Hulk it would require to capture that.
....yeild amounts are broken and something needs changed. But it ain't with recycling that's for damn sure.
If you have an in corp Recycler/Reprocessor my point dont apply to you. If you dont however it does, because then your SOLO/do it yourself method is destroying his livelyhood..
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Elena Morin'staal
Minmatar Tau Online Explorator Corp New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:50:00 -
[56]
Quote:
Remove existing static belts and add in large belts which require actual probe exploration, add smaller planetary belts which use the on board scanner for your solo miners.
I think I'd just be happy with this, tbh. I love the idea of having to put in a medium amount of effort to probe down a mining site for my corp.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.04 15:55:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
If you have an in corp Recycler/Reprocessor my point dont apply to you. If you dont however it does, because then your SOLO/do it yourself method is destroying his livelyhood..
perhaps we're getting lost in translation.
How does boosting loot and melting loot fix the issue of minerals mostly coming from loot and not mining?
....I'm missing something in your logic here. |
Unbowed Ash
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.04 16:01:00 -
[58]
Lets not forget the rise in prices for T1 modules if they re removed from missions.
Right now a large portion of named T1 is from mission folks. This means new players will be in even worse position when trying to get a feel of the game.
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nether void
Caldari Shrapnel Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.04 16:01:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Ricdic I had a fairly long winded idea to combat this about 9 months ago here.
It was more focused on allowing proper specialization, a miner being the core supplier of minerals, a mission runner being the core supplier of named loot, a producer being the core supplier of T1 products. It also went on a little bit about the ability to customize a producers items. It's nothing like T3 but its still a form of customization that will be able to give some form of individuality to a product.
As a mission runner I enjoy the mineral yield from missions however when considering the effect on miner profession (especially as listed here now at a whopping 40%) it really shows how damaging this is.
This is really the best solution.
Missioning already brings in way too much money. Get rid of dropped T1 loot. Get rid of meta 1-3, they're pointless. Increase the drop rate of meta 4 somewhat to compensate. Get rid of drone drops, and add bounty to drone kills.
Mining needs to be more interesting. I'm sure there are a few ways to do this. Someone else probably has some good ideas. With T1 loot no longer being dropped, we will need some way to increase yield from mining, because miners will need to make up for that 40% loss of mineral volume. That could be make mining more fun, or just buff mining roids and lasers. I prefer making it more fun, but that might take too many CCP resources right now.
That's about it really. --------------------
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flakeys
Tier 3 Technologies Inc Lazy is our middle name
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Posted - 2009.02.04 16:02:00 -
[60]
Edited by: flakeys on 04/02/2009 16:04:25
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania
Another good point.
The reason prices are wrong all over the boards is that there simple isnt enough players into the service sector. No real serious professional recyclers. Those that might want that job cant do it because sell and buy limits make this impossible.
We need more buy and sell orders for all skill levels. This would make a recycler and reprocessor profession viable.. It is atm very needed to fix this issue..
It allready is a viable profession but just a verry boring one just like mining is hence why not many people are into it.One of my toons has the max order amount , somewhere in the 300 order if i am right so that is more then enough to have i'd say.My profession is 'reprocessor'.I have so far never used sell orders and have made a verry nice profit from it.I work with 5 toons for it these days but the 1st month only had one wich gave a MUCH better cashflow then any missioning/mining can do.
I started 3 months back and in the process have 'helped/trained' about 15 people into it.Of those 15 only 1 is still into the business.None quit because of low profits because they all where amazed at the isk that is there to be picked up but they all got bored of it within a months time.So in short nothing wrong with the amount of orders etc , just people generally don't want to play a game to make it look like a reall life job.
I deliver approx 6 bille in minerals a month to a friend of mine who builds caps purely from loot reprocessed.
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