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Poetic Stanziel
Major Kong Freight
798
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 04:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
from Virtual Psychopathy in New Eden
There's a certain amount of virtual psychopathy that exists among the playerbase of EVE Online. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call it healthy, but neither would I necessarily call it detrimental. I'll get to why I describe it as virtual psychopathy in a wee bit.
I like to compare it somewhat to hentai, of the Urotsukidoji variety. (Neither hentai or Urotsukidoji are likely to be safe for work, so no links supplied. Google at your own risk and convenience.) The Japanese have staid and buttoned-down daily existences, so when they let loose in their private lives, they go that extra mile, and then ten extra miles beyond that. Hentai is a reflection of that sort of double-life.
EVE Online has similarities to the hentai phenomenon. People engage in behaviour within the game that they would never dream of engaging in the outside world. And this is okay, because other than some ego bruising, they're not harming anyone. All anyone loses are pixels. Maybe some respect. Considering most everyone is anonymous to everyone else, even that loss of respect can be considered virtual. There's nothing at all wrong with having an arena where you can relieve some stress, act out, or simply roleplay a baddie.
Scamming someone out of the value of a Titan or robbing the alliance coffers or just running around ganking Hulks, many people (mostly of the carebear bent) refer to this as psychopathic behaviour. They claim that it's a reflection on the player in the real world. If they're willing to steal 50B ISK or blow-up a defenseless ship, then they must be a bad person in real life as well.
Phooey.
At worst it could be considered virtual psychopathy. And virtual psychopathy is not real psychopathy. Just because someone is willing to spend a year to bring down some alliance, doesn't mean in the outside world they'd love to run a giant Ponzi scheme, or are actually scamming grandmas out of their pension cheques. Virtual psychopathy is to cause virtual harm. Folks losing only fake items, pixels, stuff that has no worth outside of the game itself. Maybe they lose some time. Maybe they lose some respect from other players. Again, both are meaningless outside of the game. Their boss doesn't think less of them because they lost a Hulk, because the boss doesn't know they lost a Hulk. Nor should/would the boss care. Whatever anguish caused by the loss, it is self-inflicted.
The Mittani used the trusted third-party scam how many times in late-2011/early-2012? Three or four times? Scamming people out of purchasing Titans. 200B-300B ISK worth of losses to the unsuspecting (even though they should have been as suspecting as hell.) Many people have met The Mittani at Fanfest. Did he come across as anything other than a personable and well-rounded individual? Did you check your wallet afterwards? Just because he scams in game does not mean he's not a great husband, a good dog owner, someone who helps out friends and family in need. Virtual psychopathy does not translate to actual pychopathic behaviour. There is zero correlation between the two.
What a player does within the context of the game is exactly that, done in the context of the game. It has no bearing, whatsoever, beyond the game.
Oh no, though, as some will argue that in a few of those massive ISK losses, the ISK might have been gained through GTC purchases, therefore The Mittani did cause real world loss. Therefore he is a real psychopath.
Phooey.
Anyone that buys ISK with GTCs (I have, for instance) does so of their own volition. They aren't cajoled or hoodwinked into it. They do so because they wanted to take the quick path to some instant in-game currency. It's not the onus of the scammer to determine whether the ISK he plans to scam was gained through a GTC purchase or via 80 hours of diligent ice mining. Grifters are not responsible for how the grifted wish to play the game (or not, where GTC purchases are concerned.)
tl;dr: Virtual psychopathic behaviour is not psychopathic behaviour.
****
Now, there was an incident a week or so ago, where a couple of players convinced their target to purchase GTCs so that he could outfit his ship with very expensive modules. I won't link to the threads and posts describing what happened, because I don't think the scammers deserve any more publicity than they've already had.
This, though, would be an example of real psychopathic behaviour. Two individuals going out of their way to cause real-world harm to a victim. Peer pressure is a powerful thing. Especially coming from individuals who a target feels they can trust. So, the blame for purchasing the GTCs cannot be laid solely at the feet of the target. He was cajoled, pressured, bullied (so to speak) into purchasing the GTCs, which were converted into ISK, which were then spent to outfit his ship with billions in modules, so that the scammers could blow up the ship, to then harvest some of those modules for their own gain.
This cannot be described as anything other than real psychopathic behaviour. These two individuals targeted another player with the express goal of convincing that person to spend hard-earned money, money that person likely would not have spent on GTCs otherwise, so that they could profit from his real-world loss. Not too mention that they revelled in their target's losses afterwards, especially the fact that they convinced the player to spend real money on their eventual scam.
That is reprehensible behaviour. It is psychopathic behaviour. Nothing virtual about it. The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
338
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 04:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
I did not expect to read something that I agreed with here but I agree with this! I was honestly surprised when I started reading the forums here and discovered a few people actually think if you do anything bad in EVE you are bad in RL too o_o. Really! You also draw a good line between doing things that are still in game but are still actually bad like convincing someone to spend RL monies.
This is prolly going to be another 30 page thread about morality in EVE but at least the opening post was clear and shows good points this time! Ferox #1 |
Dirk Magnum
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
255
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Posted - 2012.04.20 04:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
(in-game) "For example, if you are thinking about selling a Republic Fleet Firetail as a regular Firetail, be sure that the market volume is high on regular Firetails and that there are plenty of buy/sell contracts for Republic Fleet Firetails. [...] The players most interested in Republic Fleet Firetails are going to be players flying regular ones."-á -- PB |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
451
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 04:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
InB4Trolls
Nice post. |
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
104
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 04:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Would read again. +1 in local |
Karn Dulake
Souls Must Be Trampled The.Alliance
478
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 04:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Its all virtual and fantasy
Although the one thing i can never get around is people who infiltrate corps over a long period of time before ripping them off.
They get to know people. lots of vent talk and suddenly you are talking about stuff outside the game. How people can do that for 6 months and then knowingly rip them is really harsh. And i can only assume that they are lawyers in real life I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |
Bane Necran
329
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Posted - 2012.04.20 04:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'm personally ok with thieving and scamming in EVE, even though i don't partake in those activities myself. And i don't even consider those psychopathic traits on their own
However, the people who do set off my psychopath alarms online, are those who not only seek to cause emotional harm to others, but get a rush out of doing it. That is textbook psychopathy. And not just an act they're putting on. Doing certain things can be an act, but how they react to the things they do gives them away. They are incapable of emotions which are considered higher thought processes like empathy, yet have all the basic 'proto-emotions' like rage or envy. They see people who are capable of emotions they aren't as weaker, and believe they are superior because they they aren't held back in life by things like compassion or remorse
But that's not to say they're out there in real life doing those things to others if they do it in a game. There's a good book called "The Mask of Sanity" which explains what that's all about. Basically, psychopaths know they aren't like other people, and become very adept at appearing to be like everyone else to blend in. They can't actually have a lot of emotions those around them do, but learn to mimic them. They know they're supposed to feel guilty about certain things, for example, so they act guilty, and may even make the most convincing apology you've ever heard, but it's all just an empty machine response. For these reasons it's extremely hard for a psychologist to diagnose someone as a psychopath, without them getting caught doing something extreme which they can't talk themselves out of. They could be anyone you know, and contrary to what Hollywood shows, they're superb impression managers, and usually don't creep people out or anything. In fact quite the opposite, they're more likely to act in a way which makes you give them your complete trust
What the internet and games like EVE offer them, is an escape from all that, where they don't have to pretend anymore, and can just revel in their true nature. I think some people out there are just pathetically trying to act like the bad guy in a movie they saw, because they think he's cool or something, but like i said earlier, it's how they react to the things they do which gives them away. Still not enough evidence to be sure, but it's a damned good indication. |
Poetic Stanziel
Major Kong Freight
799
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 04:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Karn Dulake wrote:They get to know people. lots of vent talk and suddenly you are talking about stuff outside the game. How people can do that for 6 months and then knowingly rip them is really harsh. Because they're still just players.
If the scammer actually got to know his target(s), met them at a Fanfest, visited them, met families, went on golf outings, then I believe their resolve to pull the big scam would be greatly diminished. It could be argued that once a person has crossed that boundary from player into person, then scamming them might very well be psychopathic behaviour, no longer of the virtual variety. The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
339
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 05:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
I can understand how some people's friendships would mean never betraying their friend in a game, that might just be understood between them. But I would not hate anyone even if I knew them if they scammed me in EVE o_o I wouldnt trust them in EVE anymore but that is the fun of it! If you want a situation where everything goes right you might as well play checkers against yourself :|
The reason you build sandcastles in the first place is to eventually watch the tide eat them c:
P.S. I would never betray anyone in EVE, but the idea that anyone can betray me or do anything to me is probably the ooonly really interesting thing that EVE has going for it. It makes a dull adventure fun! Ferox #1 |
Chokichi Ozuwara
Royal One Piece Corporation Deadly Unknown
109
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 05:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Dualism is so much crap. Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round. |
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Ponies for the Ethical Treatment of Asteroids
1026
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 05:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Karn Dulake wrote:They get to know people. lots of vent talk and suddenly you are talking about stuff outside the game. How people can do that for 6 months and then knowingly rip them is really harsh. Because they're still just players. If the scammer actually got to know his target(s), met them at a Fanfest, visited them, met families, went on golf outings, then I believe their resolve to pull the big scam would be greatly diminished.
Apparently you don't know eve players very well.
I was gang leader in a 2 man fleet with a good irl friend in 0.0 when the **** hit the fan and we had to find a way out. Bad people had a gatecamp set up on one gate and had a scout watching the other, no doubt having their whole fleet ready to chase anyone with the audacity to try to slip past.
So I got a brilliant plan to get out of the situation, I would gang warp us to the camped gate and cancel my warp leaving him the sole target of the enemy fleet while I slipped to safety. Brilliant!
Anyway I got the gates confused and warped him to safety while I went to the gatecamp
He thought it was funny as hell because I got my comeuppance |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
3210
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 05:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
Virtual...? EVE is real!
/c
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
173
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 06:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
You got one word right in your entire theory
Phooey. |
Dr Silkworth
Two Geezers in Space
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 06:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sociopath is the word your looking for. |
NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
184
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 06:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Karn Dulake wrote:They get to know people. lots of vent talk and suddenly you are talking about stuff outside the game. How people can do that for 6 months and then knowingly rip them is really harsh. Because they're still just players. If the scammer actually got to know his target(s), met them at a Fanfest, visited them, met families, went on golf outings, then I believe their resolve to pull the big scam would be greatly diminished. It could be argued that once a person has crossed that boundary from player into person, then scamming them might very well be psychopathic behaviour, no longer of the virtual variety.
Not to far back there was actually a thread that described something close to this. He was bored in a 0.0 alliance,created an alt and joined a high sec mining corp purely to gain their trust and with the long term goal to rob them blind. He got to know them and eventually joined the corp with his main and helped the corp prosper.
I wish i remembered where i saw the thread or who wrote it.
But this also isent such an..unusual thing as you might expect. I suspect that there is a high amount of players that start off with something like this in mind and then end up not wanting to go trough with it because they feel "closer" to the people then they expected they would. From personal exsperiense i have also seen this with war targets. Classic griefer corps that war dec you just for fun,but then get to know the people they have war decced and both sides end up just having fun with it. I remember in one particular case we actually ended up agreeing to just not agress eachother outside of of certain systems or speficic days,and in the meantime they tried to help us with advice and so on that could help improve our PVP skills, and on the last day both sides just met up in a system in cheap cruisers and blew eachother up
But ofc i have also seen things go the other way. I remember one member we had..really good guy even if he couldent be to active due to being in the army. He was in the corp for over a year and many of our members really trusted him. But then he came back from the army on leave once and next thing we know he had robbed us blind since he was joining a friend in a pirate corp or something. He said that his friend had talked him into robbing us but who knows... But me and him still split on good terms.. We both realize that its just pixels and your ingame actions does not reflect who you are in real life (as an example a guy who works as a prison guard who was a hard core pirate ). I know the members felt betrayed,but thats just how EVE is and it dident do any harm but to cause them to be even more paranoid then they already where,which in EVE isent always a bad thing.
But as mentioned in other posts as well..there if a fine line... Harassment is one of the few things i feel are really crossing the line from being ingame/not real to something that affects you in real life. Im saying this after knowing several female gamers who run into issues with guys refusing to leave them alone and really making them feel uncomfterbale. I have also heard about things where people will trash down on you (deliberatly to hurt you) because your female,or gay. And in worst case i heard about it was a girl that was a mute who got harassed so badly by the other girls in the corp because you couldent "proove" that she was a female that she ended up avoiding joining any corporations and eventually just quit the game all together. All these things are personal attacks on something that is real. Some can deal with them,some cant. Some people that do it dont see why its wrong,and others do it to make up for being bullied in school. But no matter what...You cant play any online game without expecting this to happen and sadly there is little that can be done about it. But again,i wouldent go as far as to say that this behavoir indicates a serius mental issue. Desperation to get acknowledged and dont have the proper exsperiense to get it any other ways perhaps but...
Bah this post became a bit longer then i intended,so here is the TLDR version
Just because you THINK you know someone it dosent mean they wont rip you off. And if someone causes you harm in EVE it certanly dosent mean that they are bad people or mentally unstable/damaged in real life. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
505
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 06:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Houm...
In a sense it's true that EVE appeals to people who feel like their live lacks a "dark side" that compensates for their orderly lives. But conversely, ir also is less appealing when the dark side is your own RL and you would like a more positive experience.
EVE is evasion for people whose lives are too perfect, civilized and boring. But it sucks to meet in EVE the same kind of scoundrel who populate your own RL.
FAI, The Mittani is a lamer compared to the guy who spent 130 million euros of public treasury to build an unnecessary airport without airplanes nor any plan to have them, and then built a statue of himself on top of it for 300,000 euros. The 10,000 goon alts who voted for Mittani are nothing compared to the guys who, election upon election, vote the SOB above because "he's one of ours"...
Seriously, if i wanted to enjoy a dystopia would just look outside my window and see what ****** country i live in. I don't need to meet the same kind of SOBs online unless I was allowed to retaliate them online -unlike IRL, and unlike EVE's current disgraceful lack of consequences for virtual crime. EVE residents: 5% WH; 8% Lowsec; 15% Nullsec; 72% Highsec. CSM 7: 1 highsec resident out of 14.-á
CSM demographics vs EVE demographics, nothing to worry about... |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Ponies for the Ethical Treatment of Asteroids
1027
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 06:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dr Silkworth wrote:Sociopath is the word your looking for.
No, sociopaths don't feel any emotion. Eve players obviously get a lot of enjoyment out of whatever they do
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
FAI, The Mittani is a lamer compared to the guy who spent 130 million euros of public treasury to build an unnecessary airport without airplanes nor any plan to have them, and then built a statue of himself on top of it for 300,000 euros.
Awesome |
Dr Silkworth
Two Geezers in Space
26
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 07:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Lot of people come back from the service unable to function in society. Its ashame what soldiers go through and the road they have to travel back. I hope he's adjusting and that maybe EVE is giving him a place to work through his stuff
It takes a while for even normal people to learn how to harness their aggression and anger. Every teenager I know ends up full of hostility and you ask them why and they haven't the foggiest idea. Volunteered at the juvenile facility, its just raw rage. nebulous. (eve word) :) Ask them who and its everybody
Now I'm up in the air as to whether EVE is a good place to release aggression. In sports you actually burn off the adrenalin. In eve it just piles up and you need bigger and bigger fixes. Still, there's a lot to be said for getting comfortable with aggressive game play in a physically safe environment. Now, if only I could do a nintendo wi type interface to swing projectiles at those darn mean Sansha
The accepted theory is that both personalities bleed into each other. Its normal for people to have a half dozen personalities inside them and not schizophrenic or anything bad. I stay cautious in EVE, not all personality changes I have went through are for the better. Many are though. I am not the same person I was when I started playing EVE. An honest overall assessment is that my life is worse
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Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
227
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 07:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
Scamming for in-game stuff is one thing, but actually going out of your way to convince someone to sink money into plex in order to take that isk is not only ****** up, but also against the TOS.
You never, ever scam for real things! |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
227
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 07:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
But all eve players who scam and gank are just IRL psychopaths who should be not only banned from the game, but put in jail for life.
Also, **** all goons! |
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Scien Inkunen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
24
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Posted - 2012.04.20 07:44:00 -
[21] - Quote
Thing is, no body really cares .... Read the "Fart file" and you will understand the meaning of life ! |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
632
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 07:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Why is it the smartest people in the world always agree with me? Funny that,no?
The OP "seems" to make sense if one applies a mass-media acquired understanding of the elements he/she chooses to address. The big HOWEVER to all this is, fortunately (or no), nobody's exitting reality to boot this game. Everyone is as ensconced in this time/space frame as they were before they clicked that icon. Furthermore, if anyone believes they ARE in another reality (virtual, or no) when they enter the game, there's a diagnosis for that as well.
Absolving themselves from the consequences of their acts because people choose to imagine that nothing "real" is happening anyway is merely a form of self-delusion, and anyone who feels that's a necessary step to take before engaging in immoral or unethical behavior at least has the virtue of realizing it is a step from civil behavior into uncivil behavior. Quite literally, it is a step from cerebral cortex mitigated behavior into reptilian stem behavior, or a giant leap into the animalistic past.
The OP seems to confuse psychopathy with anti-social personality disorder. Though the two are related in many ways, the psychopathy is expressed in many different disorders. ASPD is expressed in many different ways. It used to be called sociopathy, and was associated strictly with violent criminals that had no remorse for their activities. However, the science has come to accept this behavior isn't limited to serial killers. It's found in the wide spectrum of societal positions as defined by activities, from the board room to the construction site if you will...and yes, in EVE, as well.
The truest marker of this behavior is does the activity engaged in generate activity in the frontal lobe of the brain, or can it be completed within the reptilian stem: The frontal lobe being where the "rights and wrongs" of behavior are mititgated. The reptilian stem being bereft of such considerations. The existence of remorse or feelings of "guilt" are the generally accepted markers.
One might pretend to attempt to imitate a psychopath, or ASPD, but it's difficult to be assured that being capable of such behavior on any level, under any pretense isn't symptomatic of possessing these disorders. Having a group of peers insist this is all mistaken thinking, or having the individual in question insisting it was all just pretense, or virtual, is inconsequential at best. No one possessing any of this array of disorders is likely to admit this as fact, either through ignorance, pure unawareness, or flat denial to further the aims these disorders demand.
ASPD is believed to prevail within Western society (from 60 upwards to 80% depending on what study you read) so it's not only highly unlikely, but it's rather naive as well to believe EVE doesn't have its share on a percentage basis. As the prevailing behavior exhibited by EVE players - or even the behavior celebrated by a large portion of EVE players, is precisely the type of behavior diagnosed as part of this spectrum of disorders, it would be be unusual (or odd) if ASPD were not present in a density reflective of the general population.
Psychopathy, on the other hand, has a smaller spectrum insofar as is understood at present. However, it wouldn't be surprising if EVE had its fair share of those, as well. Be it ASPD or Psychopathy, it's futile to point out and castigate people for this behavior, as they are incapable of realizing or understanding the point you'd be trying to make. One must either accept its presence and live with it, or move on in hopes of finding somewhere they aren't present. Given the pervasive presence of ASPD especially, it's highly unlikely such a place exists, and if you think you've found one, you may be deluding yourself....or wishful thinking. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Dawiid BenAimaic
Dasa Fern Valley Jamaican Rum Transport Corp
9
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Posted - 2012.04.20 07:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
I like to play the game the same way that I play real life. I like being the good guy who charges too much for my ammo. Well I don't tackle battleships in RL but I do enjoy RL challenges that are about as difficult.. Most of those that I spend time with are friends and family in RL. If a RL friend has a pirate alt, I am happy to meet him in combat , but I also enjoy playing chess
I think that it is better for people to get scammed in game and learn a difficult lesson rather than be scammed in RL and have even more pain to deal with
Our corp rule is no smack talk. Deliberately griefing players until they quit the game is something that i do not approve of. We should all be willing to help one another to have fun with the game. Please note that i am not complaining about gankers attacking miners even though I have lost three mining ships, i have also looted and salvaged five gankers that did not have what it takes to finish me off in the time they had
I am concerned that most people who spend a lot of time playing this game, are able to play this game because of very real problems in the real world that may make them more vulnerable to emotional attacks. If a person is persecuted in a virtual game, then their pain may be very real and very damaging
I enjoy discussion but I do not care for insults, not even when they are directed at people that i do not care for. Personal insults are inappropriate in almost any context.. I once worked with a firm where the partners traded insults once a week over lunch, their rule was that you had to upset the other person without saying anything that the judge could complain about. Very subtle, very vicious, very useful as a court room skill. Not something I consider appropriate in this game or on these forums.
Sometimes I am the windshield, sometimes I am the bug, and sometimes I am just a pilot with a Typhoon |
Mugged Yougot
NorCorp Security AAA Citizens
10
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Posted - 2012.04.20 08:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:I'm personally ok with thieving and scamming in EVE, even though i don't partake in those activities myself. And i don't even consider those psychopathic traits on their own
However, the people who do set off my psychopath alarms online, are those who not only seek to cause emotional harm to others, but get a rush out of doing it. That is textbook psychopathy. And not just an act they're putting on. Doing certain things can be an act, but how they react to the things they do gives them away. They are incapable of emotions which are considered higher thought processes like empathy, yet have all the basic 'proto-emotions' like rage or envy. They see people who are capable of emotions they aren't as weaker, and believe they are superior because they they aren't held back in life by things like compassion or remorse. *Most of the QQ comes from miners, because they are the ones trying to pacify EVE, and are really the only people who get butthurt from losses and throw around accusations of sociopathy, because a PvPer is used to losing ships, thus this post is directed at miners*
I'm sorry man, but I do not empathize with people that feel bad because they lost some pixels (that they can easily get back) in a computer-game. Quite frankly, I think it's ******* ridiculous, as they know what the game is about, and are free to GTFO and move to another game if this game upsets them. The PvPers of EVE should have to bow down for the people who only care about the size of their wallet? Miners make money, but they are butthurt because they lose a barge (translates into capital), thus not earning their maximum potential income. Now that right there is what you call greed. If you did not make money, your point would be valid, but the fact that you miners are still playing proves that mining is lucrative. But you won't settle with what you have, will you? You want more, mooOORE, MOOOOOORE! Combine this with the fact that miners like to stare at the same asteroids, doing the same static thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, you might come to the conclusion that miners are greedy self-obsessive individuals suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder..
^ ^ ^ And this is why you should not mix psychology with computer-games. |
Dr Silkworth
Two Geezers in Space
26
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Posted - 2012.04.20 08:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
I disagree about the miner thing. thats not been my ingame experience. my old miners were always too eager to fight. I don't really disagree with the greedy ocd thing though :)
Serene, good post. Not sure I agree on the reptilian versus frontal lobe. I think they are both capable of the opposite behaviors you attribute to them and are not absolute as I comprehended you, but I got your Drift.
To be more specific, expressing love (not sex) is a conscious decision that involves effort. One can do things normally considered antisocial or at least risking social rejection and not feel guilt. Sometime theres some regret that a tough decision had to be made but overall the regrets comfortably rationalized and absorbed. Relationships drift in the direction from bad to good in time.
Coversely the opposite reptilian response of fear can produce an autonomic fight or flight and both of those can leave consequences draggin guilt or shame along with them for years. Things get worse. Either group economies degradel or individual economies falter over time. |
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
1072
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 08:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
As commented on the blog:
In the real world I like to think I am a very decent person. Few would disagree. At least 1/4 of my work day is spent working pro-bono for local charities. I have found a wallet containing -ú1000 and handed it in whilst existing as a penny-broke student. I would do this again.
Yet, give me an option in Eve where I can break into the home of my enemy and drop kick their children from the 6th story of their building, and I would do this as a way of saying hello.
Few people seem to understand the separation between the virtual and the real.
Fun fact: I actually started Eve and had the mission to be the good guy, the ultimate hero. Always fighting for what is right. I actually applied to Eve uni with the goal of joining the ILN and fighting the evil griefers. Over the course of about 3months I underwent an in-character shift into a guy who does anything to get his payday. Han shot first? No, Han nuked it from orbit first, it was the only way to be sure.
I guess what I'm saying, is people who can't see the difference between in-character and in-real-life personality traits usually have very poor perception (I'm sure some are on the Autism spectrum, especially the ones who cry over their lost space pixels). Psychology teaches us that whenever we create an avatar we create another "self" - whether our intent is to play an idealized version of ourselves or not is irrelevant. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3409
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 09:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tricking someone into thinking you have an ace-high straight and taking a large amount of real life money from them as a result?
Well played sir, oh good game!
Tricking someone into thinking you have a Titan for sales and taking a large amount of imaginary pixel-money from them as a result?
U R MENTALLY SICK SOCIOPATH!!!!11
Obviously it's the lack of real life consequences that make the difference. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
1072
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 09:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Tricking someone into thinking you have an ace-high straight and taking a large amount of real life money from them as a result? Well played sir, oh good game! Tricking someone into thinking you have a Titan for sales and taking a large amount of imaginary pixel-money from them as a result? U R MENTALLY SICK SOCIOPATH!!!!11 Obviously it's the lack of real life consequences that make the difference.
Screw you for making the point better, man. Screw you.
- "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3410
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 09:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Malcanis wrote:Tricking someone into thinking you have an ace-high straight and taking a large amount of real life money from them as a result? Well played sir, oh good game! Tricking someone into thinking you have a Titan for sales and taking a large amount of imaginary pixel-money from them as a result? U R MENTALLY SICK SOCIOPATH!!!!11 Obviously it's the lack of real life consequences that make the difference. Screw you for making the point better, man. Screw you.
I am taking a cruel delight in doing so
AHAHAHAHAAH!!!!
O wait Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3410
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 09:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Seriously though, schadenfreude isn't a synonym for sociopathy. It's difficult to take seriously claims that someone who enjoys the suffering of others has a psychological condition that prevents them apprehending the suffering of others. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
|
Opertone
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
122
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 09:52:00 -
[31] - Quote
I would not call it sociopathy or mental illness. It is the common faggotry - urgent desire to act like a ***. Synonym - douche bag. They want to cause damage, they deliver damage to other players out of fun factor.
Only one problem with this - they ruin gameplay for others and abuse certain game mechanics - such as capsuleers are immortal and unpunishable, there is no way to pay back. If a person steals a lot of isk, nobody can reverse it. GMs do not solve scams. They often can't solve cheats or exploits when it is called for.
I hate exploiters. I dislike people who want to **** into my virtual life. |
No'mak
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 09:54:00 -
[32] - Quote
Liked the original post. Nicely explained!
I will say though that the instance you mentioned may be something that psychopaths do, but people who are not psychopaths will also do it, and not all psychopaths would actually resort to such behaviour. So a better term to use would be anti-social behaviour.
Although I'm nitpicking I think it's an important distinction! |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
79
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 11:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Tricking someone into thinking you have an ace-high straight and taking a large amount of real life money from them as a result? Well played sir, oh good game! Tricking someone into thinking you have a Titan for sales and taking a large amount of imaginary pixel-money from them as a result? U R MENTALLY SICK SOCIOPATH!!!!11 Obviously it's the lack of real life consequences that make the difference.
Congratulations, you won the forum.
We can all go home now. Remembers, fly Frigates - Capsuleers are more tenacious than baseliner crews.-á |
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
107
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 11:39:00 -
[34] - Quote
By the end of your article you identify instances of what you call real psychopathy in Eve. This contradicts your earlier argument that it does not exist. It makes no difference that you attempt to delineate the line that you say has been crossed. Other people would put that line at different places, and, frankly, with more logic and fewer words than you use.
A person who plays this game with no sense of personal honor is likely to have a weak sense of honor in the world. The game glorifies betrayals, thefts, scams, bullying in local chat, name calling, gay-baiting, misogynistic language, and general nasty behavior. That this crosses the line into real life is demonstrated clearly by the recent Fanfest. There is little to argue here.
Psychopath is a very extreme word and I would not use it to describe what goes on in most of the game. But with the guy in Sweden stating publicly that he prepared himself for a massacre of 77 people by playing World of Warcraft and Call of Duty, you can be that this discussion in the real world is not over.
A person who role-plays a bad guy in Eve does not have to bully people, steal from them, betray his online friends, or anything of the kind, in order to role-play a bad guy. There are lots of pirates in Eve who still have a sense of friendship and honor. But there are many who do not. A bad person in Eve is probably a bad person in the real world. Your post has actually affirmed this connection in its closing. |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
79
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 11:52:00 -
[35] - Quote
You may have missed the point, but you did so fantastically.
Kudos. Remembers, fly Frigates - Capsuleers are more tenacious than baseliner crews.-á |
Justice Comes
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:00:00 -
[36] - Quote
It seems perfectly reasonable that someone who spends all day trying to scam people in Jita would be more likely to cheat (at small things at least) IRL. There is no hard line between the fantasy and reality other than what you put there yourself, and everyone is different. Google Chrome could not load the webpage because forums.eveonline.com took too long to respond. The website may be down, or you may be experiencing issues with your Internet connection. |
Jonah Gravenstein
157
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
I'm pretty much a carebear in game, however if I see a opportunity to scam, gank, otherwise screw somebody else out of virtual monies or goods I will . There are no morals or boundaries in this wonderful virtual world that we inhabit, that's what makes it so damn appealing, you can do what you want, when you want and the only penalties are virtual, so I have no problems with people playing at being badass space pirates, conmen or otherwise generally unpleasant people.
Carebearing has its risks as do the darker professions available to us, you choose your path, you take on board the risks and above all you have FUN which is what the game is all about. War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3411
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:02:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:But with the guy in Sweden stating publicly that he prepared himself for a massacre of 77 people by playing World of Warcraft...
No he didn't
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Halete
Teraa Matar White-Lotus
79
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:08:00 -
[39] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:But with the guy in Sweden stating publicly that he prepared himself for a massacre of 77 people by playing World of Warcraft... No he didn't
Off-topic, but the documents he released publicly admitted that he only pretended to have a video-game obsession to cover up the time that he was using to plan his attack. This was so successful that he later approached the media saying that he had used games such as Call of Duty to 'train' for the massacre. He pretty clearly flaunts how eagerly peopled lapped this story up. Remembers, fly Frigates - Capsuleers are more tenacious than baseliner crews.-á |
Poetic Stanziel
Major Kong Freight
807
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:I was gang leader in a 2 man fleet with a good irl friend in 0.0 when the **** hit the fan and we had to find a way out. Bad people had a gatecamp set up on one gate and had a scout watching the other, no doubt having their whole fleet ready to chase anyone with the audacity to try to slip past.
So I got a brilliant plan to get out of the situation, I would gang warp us to the camped gate and cancel my warp leaving him the sole target of the enemy fleet while I slipped to safety. But that's not so much a big scam as just being freaking hilarious! :)
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
|
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Robotics Darkmatter Initiative
515
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:14:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:But with the guy in Sweden stating publicly that he prepared himself for a massacre of 77 people by playing World of Warcraft and Call of Duty, you can be that this discussion in the real world is not over.
Norway, and from someone that was in one of his guilds several years ago he's talking absolute bullshit. He played games to avoid RL social contact, that's the closest to "prepairing" it got. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Xervish Krin
Shiva Furnace
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
When you play eve, you're agreeing to play by the rules of the game. The same is true for any game.
If you take all my pieces in chess without mercy, I don't call you a psychopath who clearly has no regard for my feelings or my poor poor bishop. I agreed when I sat down to play that if I put the bishop where it could be taken, it could be taken.
If you blow up my ship, it's no different. The fact that I'm more attached to it than a bishop is irrelevant; I agreed when I flew it that it could be blown up. If you make an alliance, you agree it can be betrayed. If you give money to a scammer, you agree to whatever skewed contract they offered. You don't get to make up extra rules where nobody gets to touch the stuff that's important to you any more than I can declare that my bishops can only be taken by a king.
Play by the rules or don't play at all. It isn't others' fault that you care so much about your space pixels that you think they deserve a magic exception. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
532
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:25:00 -
[43] - Quote
Xervish Krin wrote: It isn't others' fault that you care so much about your space pixels that you think they deserve a magic exception.
Unless they actually consist of exceptionally magical and wonderful space pixels. Like Shiva ships do. |
Poetic Stanziel
Major Kong Freight
807
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:30:00 -
[44] - Quote
Opertone wrote:I hate exploiters. I dislike people who want to **** into my virtual life. You have a lot of anger, sir.
The in-game pacifists seem to be the angriest, cruellest players of the bunch ... they would benefit so much from some good old fashioned Exhumer ganking.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Poetic Stanziel
Major Kong Freight
807
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:33:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:Psychopath is a very extreme word and I would not use it to describe what goes on in most of the game. But with the guy in Sweden stating publicly that he prepared himself for a massacre of 77 people by playing World of Warcraft and Call of Duty, you can be that this discussion in the real world is not over. Yeah, I'm going to believe anything that comes out of that guy's mouth.
He could very well have a beef against video games. What better way to turn a negative light on to them than to claim that they prepared you to kill 77 people.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Dr Silkworth
Two Geezers in Space
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:39:00 -
[46] - Quote
So you think anger is a punishable offense? How about your own? |
Poetic Stanziel
Major Kong Freight
807
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:41:00 -
[47] - Quote
Dr Silkworth wrote:So you think anger is a punishable offense? How about your own? Who are you talking too?
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Dr Silkworth
Two Geezers in Space
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:42:00 -
[48] - Quote
Now lets talk about guilt? |
Whitehound
159
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:50:00 -
[49] - Quote
The longer a comment the more nonsense it contains...
When you buy GTCs then you should know that the money you spend on it is gone and will not come back. This is all one needs to understand. Your stuff will explode one day and the how will not matter. You will close your account because you have grown out of the game, less time for it or because you died and your stuff will sit in a database until the bits start to rot. There is nothing psychopathic about it. The real loss is made the moment you buy GTCs.
The only bad person is the one who spends more real money on a game than he can afford to lose. No more crappy expansions! - Raise A Little Hell |
Just Alter
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
23
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:52:00 -
[50] - Quote
I completely disagree with everything you have written, you're deluding yourself
People dont behave in the real world as they do in eve because they have more to lose (their life)
I'd suggest reading the work of zimbardo and pinker and marc macyoung on these points
|
|
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
342
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 12:52:00 -
[51] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Why is it the smartest people in the world always agree with me? Funny that,no?
The OP "seems" to make sense if one applies...
No one thinks that people aren't real when you are playing in a virtual game. The difference that you have to understand is that your actions ARE different. Otherwise PvP would be much worse than stealing. Have you never killed another player in EVE or any other game ever? Did you not feel accomplishment by outperforming another person in a competitive way? Im sure you can understand that. Now you just have to realize that while most games just have killing eachother as the only competitive way of engaging, EVE allows you to lie and cheat and steal.
Just like Im sure you don't murder thousands of people in RL like you do in EVE Im sure the fact that people steal or lie in EVE does not affect if they do in RL.
Ferox #1 |
Mugged Yougot
NorCorp Security AAA Citizens
10
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 13:20:00 -
[52] - Quote
Justice Comes wrote:It seems perfectly reasonable that someone who spends all day trying to scam people in Jita would be more likely to cheat (at small things at least) IRL. There is no hard line between the fantasy and reality other than what you put there yourself, and everyone is different. Guess SW:TOR turned me into an outlaw then, because after playing that game there are few things that amuse me more than tears. But everyone know's that gaming automatically turns you into a sociopathic serial-killer, so why am I writing this post? o.O |
Ackemi
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 13:24:00 -
[53] - Quote
I just want to thank everyone for the sincere thought put into this thread. I have enjoyed it greatly!
During this discussion, we've experienced at least three of what I would consider "real life" viewpoints of this very valued topic. (There may be more and I'm too dense to catch them...)
I think the important thing to remember is that in real life (and Eve since "Eve is Real") all the different viewpoints are VALID when dealing with other people. YMMV...
It's almost a disservice to human complexity that societies strive to apply/enforce only one viewpoint at any given time to its people for any specific topic.
Make of that what you will... |
non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
765
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 13:49:00 -
[54] - Quote
OP is so cool.
We should all go to OP's blog and read it every day. So much excellent stuff from OP. Just WOW!!! I don't judge, I just say it how it is.
*waits for wallet to blink*
PS hatred towards EVE Uni is completely Okay!! Okay!?!? |
Dr Silkworth
Two Geezers in Space
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 13:55:00 -
[55] - Quote
Could we really be talking about something as simple a unsportsmanlike conduct even if were extending it from ship pvp to the market coups? |
Sin Pew
SWARTA Mostly Clueless
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 14:28:00 -
[56] - Quote
You can't label some gamers with a psychiatric condition because they find fun in causing some distress to others, it's nothing different from teenagers acting cruel to the ones they don't like in highschool because they're different. Some people will drink to illness, others will do some sports, or perform another hobby IRL, and some people act up in virtual spaceships. They might have a problem, but it has nothing to do with the game itself and I'm pretty sure eve online isn't part of the clinical diagnosis process. Psychopathy is a mental illness someone is born with, not to be confused with the violent psychotics. Sociopathy is inherited through environmental influences over childhood. Both are antisocial behaviours showing a lack of emotional response to good or evil, no empathy. You can't compare that with greed. The impulses of a guy tricking someone over the internet for some (virtual) profit, is nothing compared to a psychopathetic impulses. If every person manipulating others, or taking advantage of a situation for their personal benefit was to be labeled psychopaths, the guy sneaking before you to get a better place in the theater while you look behind you for a few seconds, would be a psychopath as well, the guy selling you car as well, and the girl on the phone trying to sell you a new lawn mower with a mortgage. We would all be psychopaths actually... Parents mistakes in educting a child, don't necessarily lead to severe mental diseases, psychology today and other junk magazines are doing serious damages though. Also, it's almost been a month now, the goons-bashing threads, as disguised as they might be, are growing really old. Wait, isn't that a pattern of obsessional and compulsive behaviours... News of the hour: Virtual Tourettes have invaded New Eden. If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary-wise; what it is it wouldn't be, and what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? |
Bane Necran
334
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 14:34:00 -
[57] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:No, sociopaths don't feel any emotion. Eve players obviously get a lot of enjoyment out of whatever they do
Well, the excited rush i spoke of before is pretty much the only pleasure they can feel, and it's brief. So chasing that becomes an obsession. They keep seeking out people to harm, and then doing more and more harmful things to people, in order to get that fleeting high again. They're also often 'thrill seekers' for the same reason. |
Dr Silkworth
Two Geezers in Space
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 14:37:00 -
[58] - Quote
Sin: Who told you you can't?
Bane: That rush? Its worth exploring. Adrenalin followed by an endorphin release? Anger and ego. Socially I'm conditioned to be uncomfortable with them in extremes. Under victory conditions I'm allright with them if I keep a sportsman like lid on them.
Or am I pscyo too? :) Being a carebear at heart I'm not super familiar with this rush real often.
Perhaps I need to gank an ibis before I speak anymore? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1556
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 14:41:00 -
[59] - Quote
I try to avoid judging others, although in reality that is impossible to do.
For my own conduct, and my own internal judgement of the actions of people I choose to associate with in game, I tend to use the following.
Do what you wish, attack/gank/scam if you will, but remember you can be ruthless and still have class.
Mock who you wish, but remember you can display your rapier like wit and still have class.
Don't go out of your way to intentionally hurt someone in their real life, don't accuse them of sleeping with their recently deceased father... or make lewd suggestions about their 8yr girl (as I have witnessed happen before), as quite simply doing such things displays no class.
You can insert the word unsportsmanlike if you prefer, but to me the word class describes a more personal and deeper level of your approach to these situations.
You can be an honest (even heroic) person in reality and still portray an amazingly devious and dangerous fiend in game, the only common theme between the two should be the level of class you maintain in both worlds. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Bane Necran
334
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 14:56:00 -
[60] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I try to avoid judging others, although in reality that is impossible to do.
In my case at least, i learned so much about these people because someone i thought was a friend in real life, completely blind sided me. I always knew there was something about him that was a little off, but i never really thought about it until it was too late. And i don't mean he did anything minor. This guy stalked me and vandalized my property for 10 years during the night, and during the day was out there convincing people i was a child molester. The reason i'm so outspoken on the issue is because unless you're one of these people yourself, you just don't think anyone is capable of doing that, and even if you do, the last person you expect is the guy pretending to be your friend. I hope to stop someone else from learning about them the hard way.
But on the bright side of things i'm now a psychopaths worst nightmare.
I know them better than they know themselves. |
|
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1335
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 14:59:00 -
[61] - Quote
I truly don't understand why some people can't grasp that can simply be fun to play the bad guy. No -pathy required, I just find it challenging and entertaining to play the part of the villain. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1557
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 15:01:00 -
[62] - Quote
I got busy preaching and forgot to tie this to the original post.
Although I choose not to portray my characters as scam artists in this game, if I did and this situation arose I would make my choice as to whether to push it that far based on what I knew of the mark.
If I had no reason to believe that encouraging him to spend his real life funds in this way would cause him any real harm I would proceed. In other words, if I believe him to be your average gamer with a bit of disposable cash.
If I had reason to believe (really believe) that the guy was financially pretty shakey, I would not have encouraged him to spend real life funds to equip his ship. Now if he chose to make his own decision to spend the cash anyway, with no encouragement from me, then the responsibility for risking those funds on an in game destructible item is his own and he is fair game.
While I might revel a bit at the successful manipulation and subsequent gank (and my personal gain) under no circumstances would I be an ass to the individual about it afterwards. I would likely explain what I did, perhaps needle him gently about being gullible, and quite probably help the man bounce back in some subtle way if he was a good sport about it. If he was not a good sport about it I would be a bit more blunt, but then end the conversation and move on to other things.
Sinking in the spurs in a malicious manner serves no purpose other than to move me from the category of a clever player who plays a nefarious character, to the category of being a classless punk... and I choose not to present myself that way either in or out of game. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Bane Necran
334
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 15:01:00 -
[63] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I truly don't understand why some people can't grasp that can simply be fun to play the bad guy. No -pathy required, I just find it challenging and entertaining to play the part of the villain.
It's much more challenging to try and be a nice guy in this game.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1557
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 15:09:00 -
[64] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I truly don't understand why some people can't grasp that can simply be fun to play the bad guy. No -pathy required, I just find it challenging and entertaining to play the part of the villain. It's much more challenging to try and be a nice guy in this game.
True, yet either is a viable course of action.
One is no better, or worse, than the other... as long as you keep it in game and with no sense of malice... and as long as you do it with style.
You can screw over another character in game as much as you like, as long as you don't intentionally try to do harm to the person outside of game.
To be clear, unless there are unlikely extenuating circumstances, convincing someone to throw a bit more money at their hobby and then capitalizing on it to teach them a lesson is NOT intentionally trying to cause the person harm outside the game.
Making a huge spectacle out of it afterward is still acceptable, but in my book is more distasteful than the original deed. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1335
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 15:09:00 -
[65] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:It's much more challenging to try and be a nice guy in this game.
Being nice is easy. I did it for a year. Then I decided to quietly turn bad had a lot more fun. Throwing off the shackles of nicety gave me the range to be creative in ways I never could before. I used mercenaries to topple industrial alliances so that I could take them over and make off with as many assets as I could. I took up spying and manipulating enemies into losing assets. I helped develop new methods of piracy and have played a small part in some rather big things that have gone on in Eve in the past year.
By abandoning "nice" I've been able to push my limits in ways I never could before.
edit: It's important to remember that this IS a role-playing game. Role playing is ultimately about telling a story through the actions of the characters. My contributions to Eve's story began when I decided to give up any pretense of being a good guy. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
233
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 15:11:00 -
[66] - Quote
Peer pressure only works on those that are not of a strong enough character to think for themselves and stand up for themselves. |
non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
765
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 15:24:00 -
[67] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:I try to avoid judging others, although in reality that is impossible to do. In my case at least, i learned so much about these people because someone i thought was a friend in real life, completely blind sided me. I always knew there was something about him that was a little off, but i never really thought about it until it was too late. And i don't mean he did anything minor. This guy stalked me and vandalized my property for 10 years during the night, and during the day was out there convincing people i was a child molester. The reason i'm so outspoken on the issue is because unless you're one of these people yourself, you just don't think anyone is capable of doing that, and even if you do, the last person you expect is the guy pretending to be your friend. I hope to stop someone else from learning about them the hard way. But on the bright side of things i'm now a psychopaths worst nightmare. I know them better than they know themselves. Not many people are like that in real life. If they are normal most the time but only crazy sometimes then aren't they more likely to be sociopaths? Most people can figure out if someone is a psychopath without been told.
The guy needs help you don't have to go out of your way to tell everyone that he's a sociopath/psychopath. Telling everyone that someone else is a crazy bastard isn't going to help at all. You just push them on to continue or be worse. If you really want to help everyone, you'd help them to be normal, so they don't do the same thing to others. Telling everyone that they should be careful about this person will only make things worse if they find out about it or if they figure that everyone is treating them strangely.
Be careful about the road you're travelling down. The cycle of suffering should be stopped not pushed forward. |
Bane Necran
334
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 15:34:00 -
[68] - Quote
non judgement wrote:Most people can figure out if someone is a psychopath without been told.
This is what i used to think, too, from watching movies.
Quote:Telling everyone that someone else is a crazy bastard isn't going to help at all.
I never really did that. Just cut my ties with everyone who believed any of his bullshit, instead of arguing with them. I consider him still being in their lives suitable punishment for their ignorance, and anyone who would believe that crap about me wasn't my friend in the first place, anyway. |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
636
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 15:42:00 -
[69] - Quote
It's obvious you don't need to convince yourselves...so whom? Anyway, this has all been a fascinating journey into deep psych. Amazing how people will be forthcoming if it's "only a game." Unfortunately, we have to take your words for the IRL you. And, as you well know, this is EVE. Trust no one. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
765
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 15:43:00 -
[70] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:non judgement wrote:Most people can figure out if someone is a psychopath without been told. This is what i used to think, too, from watching movies. Quote:Telling everyone that someone else is a crazy bastard isn't going to help at all. I never really did that. Just cut my ties with everyone who believed any of his bullshit, instead of arguing with them. I consider him still being in their lives suitable punishment for their ignorance, and anyone who would believe that crap about me wasn't my friend in the first place, anyway. Yeah. I think I changed my mind just then about being able to tell the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath, after reading a bit more about it in wikipedia.
I complete agree with what you did. I've had problems with these kind of things as well. I couldn't say anything to make things better. It just seemed like it was a mess no matter what I said or did. |
|
Michael J Caboose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 16:02:00 -
[71] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:Peer pressure only works on those that are not of a strong enough character to think for themselves and stand up for themselves.
Human beings are social creatures and as such every one of us is susceptible to peer pressure in ways overt and subtle. The person who is self-aware acknowledges this susceptibility to group-think and is able to mitigate most of the harmful effects.
Conversely, one who lacks self-awareness and thinks only those who are "weak" are influenced by peers is much more likely to be in denial as to effect of the influences surrounding them , and therefore much more likely to be influenced without even being aware of it. |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 16:08:00 -
[72] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:I'm personally ok with thieving and scamming in EVE, even though i don't partake in those activities myself. And i don't even consider those psychopathic traits on their own
However, the people who do set off my psychopath alarms online, are those who not only seek to cause emotional harm to others, but get a rush out of doing it. That is textbook psychopathy. And not just an act they're putting on. Doing certain things can be an act, but how they react to the things they do gives them away. They are incapable of emotions which are considered higher thought processes like empathy, yet have all the basic 'proto-emotions' like rage or envy. They see people who are capable of emotions they aren't as weaker, and believe they are superior because they they aren't held back in life by things like compassion or remorse
But that's not to say they're out there in real life doing those things to others if they do it in a game. There's a good book called "The Mask of Sanity" which explains what that's all about. Basically, psychopaths know they aren't like other people, and become very adept at appearing to be like everyone else to blend in. They can't actually have a lot of emotions those around them do, but learn to mimic them. They know they're supposed to feel guilty about certain things, for example, so they act guilty, and may even make the most convincing apology you've ever heard, but it's all just an empty machine response. For these reasons it's extremely hard for a psychologist to diagnose someone as a psychopath, without them getting caught doing something extreme which they can't talk themselves out of. They could be anyone you know, and contrary to what Hollywood shows, they're superb impression managers, and usually don't creep people out or anything. In fact quite the opposite, they're more likely to act in a way which makes you give them your complete trust
What the internet and games like EVE offer them, is an escape from all that, where they don't have to pretend anymore, and can just revel in their true nature. I think some people out there are just pathetically trying to act like the bad guy in a movie they saw, because they think he's cool or something, but like i said earlier, it's how they react to the things they do which gives them away. Still not enough evidence to be sure, but it's a damned good indication.
Dexter! The HBO (or showtime) show not the cartoon
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 16:24:00 -
[73] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Dr Silkworth wrote:Sociopath is the word your looking for. No, sociopaths don't feel any emotion. Eve players obviously get a lot of enjoyment out of whatever they do Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
FAI, The Mittani is a lamer compared to the guy who spent 130 million euros of public treasury to build an unnecessary airport without airplanes nor any plan to have them, and then built a statue of himself on top of it for 300,000 euros.
Awesome
Quote:1. Sociopaths are usually defined as people displaying anti social behavior which is mainly characterized by lack of empathy towards others that is coupled with display of abnormal moral conduct and inability to conform with the norms of the society. People suffering from antisocial personality disorder are often referred to as sociopaths. Some of the other characteristics that sociopaths may display are stealing, lying, lack of remorse for others and towards living beings, irresponsible behavior, impulsive behavior, drug or alcohol abuse, problems with the law, violating rights of others, aggressive behavior and much more.
Sociopaths are often unable to control their behavior and their expressions of annoyance, irritability and threats when faced with situations not appealing to them and they often tend to resort to threats, aggression and verbal abuse. Though no person is born with this disorder, the sociopathic personality disorder does involve a history of persistent anti social behavior during childhood before the age of 15 and if left untreated, this disorder continues into adulthood too. Sociopaths could also have been influenced by various environmental factors around the age of 15 that is also one of the main reasons for this disorder in individuals. Some of the environmental factors can include deprivation, sexual abuse, abandonment, emotional abuse, association with people who are antisocial, physical abuse and others. Though there are no distinct biological causes that have been identified as the main cause for this disorder, research suggest that for people suffering from sociopathic personality disorder, the part of the brain that is mainly responsible for an individualGÇÖs learning from his or her own mistakes and responding to fearful and sad facial expressions tends to be smaller than in a normal individual. Researchers believe that this may be the reason for lack of empathy towards others. There are theories that also indicate that hormonal fluctuations also have a role to play in this disorder, however the links have not been directly established.
People suffering from Sociopathic disorders tend to be superficially charming. They also tend to display behavior which include manipulation of people around them, desire to be in control of everything and everyone around them that usually leads to grave consequences and shallow emotions.
Displays heightened levels of deceitfulness in dealings with others, which involves lying, conning others without remorse, or even using aliases Inability to abide by the social norms and thus violating law Displays aggressiveness and often tends to get into assaults and physical fights Displays complete lack of empathy for others and their situation for which they are responsible Displays no feelings or shallow feelings Displays impulsive behavior which is indicated by the inability to plan for the future Displays no concern for safety of others around them or self Inability to sustain a consistent behavior that stems mainly from irresponsibility especially at work place or in other dealings Displays promiscuous behavior
Sounds like a lot of the trolls here lol
peh sociopathy? THIS IS EVE lol
Malcanis wrote:Tricking someone into thinking you have an ace-high straight and taking a large amount of real life money from them as a result? Well played sir, oh good game! Tricking someone into thinking you have a Titan for sales and taking a large amount of imaginary pixel-money from them as a result? U R MENTALLY SICK SOCIOPATH!!!!11 Obviously it's the lack of real life consequences that make the difference.
tricking thousands of like minded individuals into pestering someone into committing suicide is TOTALLY the same as Titan scamming
SAME consequences entirely.
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
ElQuirko
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
579
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 16:40:00 -
[74] - Quote
What you've said about psychopathy makes sense.
HOWEVER.
You say that "they won't be a bad person in the real world". This is wrong. The mask of social inhibitions and moral graces that we all wear prevents us from acting like this, as well as the fear of repercussions if we did. The state keeps control of us not through drugs or respect or the fact that they could wipe us out in one blow but because, simply put, they can't keep control of us in any manner but fear.
Take the pet dog. He has been taught, all his life, to have a massive, twitching inferiority complex. He believes that his master could do anything to him. That dog does not know that he could leap up and tear his master's throat out with relative ease. A nation's armed forces are a minute fraction of the size of the total population - even if equipped with the simplest of weaponry, the high-tech that the armed forces hold could not hold back the crudely armed citizenry when they outnumber each man at least 100,000 to 1. The ability that the police and army hold to keep control of a population is purely "Or else". Nobody asks "or else what?", for the fear that these forces will bring something down on them. With the size of a population on your side, the response would probably be "Or else... or else... well, you'd just better not, okay?".
It is the fear the individual has that he will get caught and punished which restricts us from acting. Take any gang, mob or group of general malcontents. In a big group, they iz badmans, ready to take on anything 'cause they're well 'ard. Take each individual member and he'll urinate inside his underwear when faced with the same possibility.
Now, I've heard the expression that "all internet arguments lead back to the *****", but for once I need to make a relevant point using them. Take the concentration camps, the brutal murders, the smashing of Jewish shops on Kristalnacht. All of these occurred because there would be no repercussions for doing it. The ***** encouraged people to put their animal side to use. People will go along with anything in a group or when there is no possibility of them being punished. The only exception to this, of course, is the hardcore group with a moral compass etched into the very fabric of their existence - great men such as Gandhi, who never believed in any kind of harm to their fellow men.
All in all, I believe that, given the chance, people would act like they do in EVE in reality if they had the same kind of anonymity or freedom to commit the acts without repercussion. I thankyou for reading my mini-essay.
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
Llyandrian
Livestock Science Exchange
51
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 16:44:00 -
[75] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I truly don't understand why some people can't grasp that can simply be fun to play the bad guy. No -pathy required, I just find it challenging and entertaining to play the part of the villain.
And some just don't understand that lack of empathy is what defines a psychopath. |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 16:45:00 -
[76] - Quote
Godwin wins!
Llyandrian wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I truly don't understand why some people can't grasp that can simply be fun to play the bad guy. No -pathy required, I just find it challenging and entertaining to play the part of the villain. And some just don't understand that lack of empathy is what defines a psychopath.
actually I think lack of empathy defines what used to be called sociopath. Look up at my lotta words post up there
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Testerxnot Sheepherder
DeadHeads - Question Authority Crew
117
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 16:51:00 -
[77] - Quote
Fantastic post OP, wholeheartedly agree. |
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
47
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 16:54:00 -
[78] - Quote
I'm a sociopath in real life but when I play eve I like to mine and build stuff. |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 17:00:00 -
[79] - Quote
Alexandra Delarge wrote:I'm a sociopath in real life but when I play eve I like to mine and build stuff.
Yeah Im quite insane in real life (Ive said as much before) but here I like to pretend not to be.
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
234
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 17:04:00 -
[80] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:What you've said about psychopathy makes sense.
HOWEVER.
You say that "they won't be a bad person in the real world". This is wrong. The mask of social inhibitions and moral graces that we all wear prevents us from acting like this, as well as the fear of repercussions if we did. The state keeps control of us not through drugs or respect or the fact that they could wipe us out in one blow but because, simply put, they can't keep control of us in any manner but fear.
Take the pet dog. He has been taught, all his life, to have a massive, twitching inferiority complex. He believes that his master could do anything to him. That dog does not know that he could leap up and tear his master's throat out with relative ease. A nation's armed forces are a minute fraction of the size of the total population - even if equipped with the simplest of weaponry, the high-tech that the armed forces hold could not hold back the crudely armed citizenry when they outnumber each man at least 100,000 to 1. The ability that the police and army hold to keep control of a population is purely "Or else". Nobody asks "or else what?", for the fear that these forces will bring something down on them. With the size of a population on your side, the response would probably be "Or else... or else... well, you'd just better not, okay?".
It is the fear the individual has that he will get caught and punished which restricts us from acting. Take any gang, mob or group of general malcontents. In a big group, they iz badmans, ready to take on anything 'cause they're well 'ard. Take each individual member and he'll urinate inside his underwear when faced with the same possibility.
Now, I've heard the expression that "all internet arguments lead back to the *****", but for once I need to make a relevant point using them. Take the concentration camps, the brutal murders, the smashing of Jewish shops on Kristalnacht. All of these occurred because there would be no repercussions for doing it. The ***** encouraged people to put their animal side to use. People will go along with anything in a group or when there is no possibility of them being punished. The only exception to this, of course, is the hardcore group with a moral compass etched into the very fabric of their existence - great men such as Gandhi, who never believed in any kind of harm to their fellow men.
All in all, I believe that, given the chance, people would act like they do in EVE in reality if they had the same kind of anonymity or freedom to commit the acts without repercussion. I thankyou for reading my mini-essay.
Some people are good, it's just the way they are and think, they don't fear the law because they're very unlikely to break it in the first place.
Dogs are pack animals and in a pack you have have a pecking order, which is why some dogs consider themselves to be higher than infants in that pecking order. Don't tell me a dog feels it has an inferiority complex when it's trying to hump your leg.
Fear is the worst way to try and maintain control as it quite often back fires.
Fear can prevent someone from doing something, but quite often good old common sense works better. Laws are not put in place to be feared, laws are guidelines on how civilised people need to act to be able to get along in large numbers.
Your take on the second world war is not even worth going into, I don't know which film you watched. |
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Devore Sekk
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 17:30:00 -
[81] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:That is reprehensible behaviour. It is psychopathic behaviour. Nothing virtual about it.
Seriously? You just spent a half dozen paragraphs reinforcing the idea of virtual actions not being related to real world actions, but virtual peer pressure (oh noez! not the peer pressure!) is bad, mkay?
There is virtual (and quite deliberate) peer pressure on players all the time to buy plex to fund their game activities, such as purchasing ships, training, modules and alts to support corp and alliance fleet doctrines, that they need to keep up or risk being left behind. Where are your tears for those players? |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
602
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 17:31:00 -
[82] - Quote
Well, this has never happened before... armchair psychologists looking to analyze and categorize behaviors in a game. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
638
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 17:40:00 -
[83] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:Well, this has never happened before... armchair psychologists looking to analyze and categorize behaviors in a game. Only problem with that is, some of this input isn't armchair psychology. I'm surprised you didn't add "and generalizations to gloss over the uncomfortable truths involved." Oh. You weren't being intellectually honest, just showing some jaded 'tude. I get it.
I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
602
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:02:00 -
[84] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Alpheias wrote:Well, this has never happened before... armchair psychologists looking to analyze and categorize behaviors in a game. Only problem with that is, some of this input isn't armchair psychology. I'm surprised you didn't add "and generalizations to gloss over the uncomfortable truths involved." Oh. You weren't being intellectually honest, just showing some jaded 'tude. I get it.
Show on the doll where the bad people touched you. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
ctx2007
Wychwood and Wells
53
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:05:00 -
[85] - Quote
+1 to cribba |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
345
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:21:00 -
[86] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Tricking someone into thinking you have an ace-high straight and taking a large amount of real life money from them as a result? Well played sir, oh good game! Tricking someone into thinking you have a Titan for sales and taking a large amount of imaginary pixel-money from them as a result? U R MENTALLY SICK SOCIOPATH!!!!11 Obviously it's the lack of real life consequences that make the difference.
Poker game where everyone knows there is money on the table. In game scam targeting in game money. In game scam targeting out of game money.
These three things are different.
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
227
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:23:00 -
[87] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Alpheias wrote:Well, this has never happened before... armchair psychologists looking to analyze and categorize behaviors in a game. Only problem with that is, some of this input isn't armchair psychology. I'm surprised you didn't add "and generalizations to gloss over the uncomfortable truths involved." Oh. You weren't being intellectually honest, just showing some jaded 'tude. I get it.
Says the person who likes to make sweeping generalizations of whole groups of people. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3418
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:33:00 -
[88] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:Malcanis wrote:Tricking someone into thinking you have an ace-high straight and taking a large amount of real life money from them as a result? Well played sir, oh good game! Tricking someone into thinking you have a Titan for sales and taking a large amount of imaginary pixel-money from them as a result? U R MENTALLY SICK SOCIOPATH!!!!11 Obviously it's the lack of real life consequences that make the difference. Poker game where everyone knows there is money on the table. In game scam targeting in game money. In game scam targeting out of game money. These three things are different.
So you're not aware that bluffing, I mean scamming, is part of the game in EVE? I mean CCP even made an EVE advert advocaing corp theft as a method of revenge!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGplrpWvz0I
So how exactly is this different? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
337
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:47:00 -
[89] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Karn Dulake wrote:They get to know people. lots of vent talk and suddenly you are talking about stuff outside the game. How people can do that for 6 months and then knowingly rip them is really harsh. Because they're still just players. If the scammer actually got to know his target(s), met them at a Fanfest, visited them, met families, went on golf outings, then I believe their resolve to pull the big scam would be greatly diminished. It could be argued that once a person has crossed that boundary from player into person, then scamming them might very well be psychopathic behaviour, no longer of the virtual variety.
This is a very blurry line with eve. You think how you ethics of your actions depends on how well you know someone.
While I would agree that a person shouldn't trust someone else until they know them, I do not think this is a good ethical line to draw.
I think the question is whether something is in game or out of game.
Let me give you an example:
1) Lets say I talk to you on vent and tell you I will not steal from you or your corp in eve.
Is that in game or out of game? I think its clearly out of game. It is an out of game promise about how I will behave in game. Yet this is often treated as if it is "part of the game" and therefore ok for me to break that promise. I am not necessarily passing a judgment on people who do this but I myself would not do this.
Moreover, I guess I will admit that if I find out someone did this GÇ£in gameGÇ¥ I do tend to lose respect for them and not just their in game GÇ£character.GÇ¥
The problem is different views about what is GÇ£in gameGÇ¥ and what is an GÇ£out of gameGÇ¥ conversation about what will be done in game. What most people understand as an out of game promise to act a certain way is often construed by eve players as "just part of the game." This is why eve might have a bad reputation.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
337
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 18:58:00 -
[90] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Malcanis wrote:Tricking someone into thinking you have an ace-high straight and taking a large amount of real life money from them as a result? Well played sir, oh good game! Tricking someone into thinking you have a Titan for sales and taking a large amount of imaginary pixel-money from them as a result? U R MENTALLY SICK SOCIOPATH!!!!11 Obviously it's the lack of real life consequences that make the difference. Poker game where everyone knows there is money on the table. In game scam targeting in game money. In game scam targeting out of game money. These three things are different. So you're not aware that bluffing, I mean scamming, is part of the game in EVE? I mean CCP even made an EVE advert advocaing corp theft as a method of revenge! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGplrpWvz0ISo how exactly is this different?
Ah the poker analogy. In poker you are not actually talking to people and building thier trust so that you can betray them. You aren't really talking at all. When people are building trust in eve it is not role play of trust between characters. They are trying to build real trust with the real people behind the characters.
That is how it is different. Because people understand how this line is crossed differently within the game is why lots of people have different views about the ethics of those who play the game.
With respect to the eve advertisement - it would be more realistic if they had someone lying to other people on vent over a course of several months in order to take their ingame assets. It would also show him selling those assets buying enough plex to pay for his subscription for for a few years and then going ahead and canceling his subscription which used to be taken out of his bank account. It wouldn't sell eve very well but it would be more realistic of how those sorts of scams are done. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1701
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 19:36:00 -
[91] - Quote
Patient 2428190 wrote:You got one word right in your entire theory
Phooey.
|
IGNATIUS HOOD
Zephyr Corp Black Thorne Alliance
307
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 19:44:00 -
[92] - Quote
Karn Dulake wrote:Its all virtual and fantasy
Although the one thing i can never get around is people who infiltrate corps over a long period of time before ripping them off.
They get to know people. lots of vent talk and suddenly you are talking about stuff outside the game. How people can do that for 6 months and then knowingly rip them is really harsh. And i can only assume that they are lawyers in real life
Priceless.
I agree with you though. It takes a special kind of e-prick to get in good with a Corp and be a good lil corpy, say and do the right things and then months later pull the trigger. Kind of crosses the line to being a real prick. 'perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim'
Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you.
~I fly spaceships~ |
FeralShadow
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
93
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 20:00:00 -
[93] - Quote
Honestly this topic just goes around in circles because there are always those who do not believe in dualism and who believe that how you act directly correlates to who you are as a person, regardless of what context you're doing it in. It's frustrating, but hey. "I do believe in karma. -áThat means that whenever I do something sh**y to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Bane Necran
337
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 20:06:00 -
[94] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:Honestly this topic just goes around in circles because there are always those who do not believe in dualism and who believe that how you act directly correlates to who you are as a person, regardless of what context you're doing it in. It's frustrating, but hey.
Yeah, you probably don't mean any of that. |
Dr Silkworth
Two Geezers in Space
33
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 20:19:00 -
[95] - Quote
can you give me an example of a non-dualisitc philosophy that has similar characteristics to whats going on in EVE? You know, like a mean one or a deceitful or hurtful one?
I'm not coming up with anything that hasn't been wiped off the face of the earth. |
Deviant X
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
20
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 20:22:00 -
[96] - Quote
I think trying to rationalize bad behavior is silly. Don't make excuses; take responsibility for your actions
The right path is not always easy. It takes mental fortitude to follow it. If you decide to cheat in the game, at least grow some ... and admit you wanted to cheat. I am more willing to interact with somebody who takes responsibility for bad behavior over some wuss who rationalizes the joy they got out of cheating.
There are bad people. If you are bad ... or feeling bad for a little while ... embrace it and don't make up silly excuses. That's what makes a good antagonist and leads to worth while drama. Don't water down or rationalize your moment, it tends to imply you think your audience is stupid
Nobody is a saint. We all do bad things. Accept it, embrace it, and be worthy of that feeling. Just don't break the ToS . |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1561
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 20:25:00 -
[97] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Malcanis wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Malcanis wrote:Tricking someone into thinking you have an ace-high straight and taking a large amount of real life money from them as a result? Well played sir, oh good game! Tricking someone into thinking you have a Titan for sales and taking a large amount of imaginary pixel-money from them as a result? U R MENTALLY SICK SOCIOPATH!!!!11 Obviously it's the lack of real life consequences that make the difference. Poker game where everyone knows there is money on the table. In game scam targeting in game money. In game scam targeting out of game money. These three things are different. So you're not aware that bluffing, I mean scamming, is part of the game in EVE? I mean CCP even made an EVE advert advocaing corp theft as a method of revenge! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGplrpWvz0ISo how exactly is this different? Ah the poker analogy. In poker you are not actually talking to people and building thier trust so that you can betray them. You aren't really talking at all. When people are building trust in eve it is not role play of trust between characters. They are trying to build real trust with the real people behind the characters. That is how it is different. Because people understand how this line is crossed differently within the game is why lots of people have different views about the ethics of those who play the game. With respect to the eve advertisement - it would be more realistic if they had someone lying to other people on vent over a course of several months in order to take their ingame assets. It would also show him selling those assets buying enough plex to pay for his subscription for for a few years and then going ahead and canceling his subscription which used to be taken out of his bank account. It wouldn't sell eve very well but it would be more realistic of how those sorts of scams are done.
Actually, in poker you are lying your ass off constantly... either through verbal misdirection of body language. You are trying your best, usually in very subtle ways, to convince the other playing that it's safe to bet a large sum on the outcome. It's called a bluff.
Frankly, nobody forced the "mark" to spend a penny on his hobby. He knew full well he as spending cash to buy destructible/stealable in game items.
As far as the EVE video spending more time to show details of HOW to build up the trust of the ruthless players that ganked you previously, and how to finance your EVE gaming entirely from the proceeds... they absolutely should have!
Subscriptions would have gone through the roof. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Dawiid BenAimaic
Dasa Fern Valley Jamaican Rum Transport Corp
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 20:35:00 -
[98] - Quote
My dad's Uncle Frank made the observation that people were a lot more polite when everyone wore a sidearm.
Someone who is not a sociopath in RL may decide to play one in game.
Someone who is a sociopath in RL may not have the skill set to do anything but be a sociopath in game.
Even in poker, it is possible to play in an unfriendly manner. Instead of playing to win, you may play to grief one particular player. My biggest problem with Eve is that it is like playing poker out of town with people named after stuff you find in your toolbox, seems like CCP is always changing the rules. |
Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
137
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 20:36:00 -
[99] - Quote
I'm not so sure that we can say virtual behavior is without real world effects. If I were on the committee charged with determining if Remedial (former goon executor) could sit for the bar, the fact that he absconded with a large amount of his alliance ISK would way heavily on my mind.
On the other hand, all this really says is that those in finance related professions might not want to engage in large scale corp theft, simply because the regulatory bodies of those professions are hyper vigilant about handling client funds. (Before anybody wastes their time though, the Mittani is retired from practicing law). |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1561
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 20:41:00 -
[100] - Quote
Dawiid BenAimaic wrote:My dad's Uncle Frank made the observation that people were a lot more polite when everyone wore a sidearm.
Someone who is not a sociopath in RL may decide to play one in game.
Someone who is a sociopath in RL may not have the skill set to do anything but be a sociopath in game.
Even in poker, it is possible to play in an unfriendly manner. Instead of playing to win, you may play to grief one particular player. My biggest problem with Eve is that it is like playing poker out of town with people named after stuff you find in your toolbox, seems like CCP is always changing the rules.
Your Uncle Frank was correct.
In EVE, it's not so much that the rules (in issues like this) change... it's that over time your understanding of what those rules always were change.
One of the unwritten, but definative, under pinnings of EVE is commonly misunderstood as being "Trust no one".
In fact, a large part of EVE is figuring out who you CAN trust, and just how far can you trust them.
The latter is a far more subtle and difficult task than the former... but if you master it a great many more options become available to you in your gaming experience. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
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Bane Necran
337
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 20:50:00 -
[101] - Quote
Dawiid BenAimaic wrote:My dad's Uncle Frank made the observation that people were a lot more polite when everyone wore a sidearm.
There are places where everyone carries guns, and they aren't anywhere close to that kind of utopia.
If you ask me, everyone was more polite before the police existed. You had to watch what you said to others, because if you insulted them they might decide your head would look good on a pike in front of their house, as an example to everyone else.
These sniveling brats going around trying to upset others are hiding behind the police. They know they're protected from violence. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1561
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 20:55:00 -
[102] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:Dawiid BenAimaic wrote:My dad's Uncle Frank made the observation that people were a lot more polite when everyone wore a sidearm. There are places where everyone carries guns, and they aren't anywhere close to that kind of utopia. If you ask me, everyone was more polite before the police existed. You had to watch what you said to others, because if you insulted them they might decide your head would look good on a pike in front of their house, as an example to everyone else. These sniveling brats going around trying to upset others are hiding behind the police. They know they're protected from violence.
Interestingly in the US states that have Conceal to Carry permits available have a much lower violent crime rate than states where it is more difficult to legally carry a firearm.
Just sayin'. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Bane Necran
337
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 21:04:00 -
[103] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Interestingly in the US states that have Conceal to Carry permits available have a much lower violent crime rate than states where it is more difficult to legally carry a firearm.
Just sayin'.
Those states might be better than others in the US, but still have more violent crime than places in other countries of equal size without so many guns. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
1561
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 21:10:00 -
[104] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Interestingly in the US states that have Conceal to Carry permits available have a much lower violent crime rate than states where it is more difficult to legally carry a firearm.
Just sayin'. Those states might be better than others in the US, but still have more violent crime than places in other countries of equal size without so many guns.
Compared to other countries, yes. Capared to other contries of equal size, no. Vast size and ease of transport very much works against a nation that wishes to strictly control firearms. You end up in a situation where only the criminal element has the option to easily obtain and use lethal force, and are well aware of that fact.
Either way, it was not my intention to derail the thread with a casual observation. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Surge Roth
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 21:30:00 -
[105] - Quote
Considering that you can do all this and get away with it (as in no real life consequences) there is a hint of truth to the victims of this game
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
338
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 22:16:00 -
[106] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Cearain wrote:Malcanis wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Malcanis wrote:Tricking someone into thinking you have an ace-high straight and taking a large amount of real life money from them as a result? Well played sir, oh good game! Tricking someone into thinking you have a Titan for sales and taking a large amount of imaginary pixel-money from them as a result? U R MENTALLY SICK SOCIOPATH!!!!11 Obviously it's the lack of real life consequences that make the difference. Poker game where everyone knows there is money on the table. In game scam targeting in game money. In game scam targeting out of game money. These three things are different. So you're not aware that bluffing, I mean scamming, is part of the game in EVE? I mean CCP even made an EVE advert advocaing corp theft as a method of revenge! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGplrpWvz0ISo how exactly is this different? Ah the poker analogy. In poker you are not actually talking to people and building thier trust so that you can betray them. You aren't really talking at all. When people are building trust in eve it is not role play of trust between characters. They are trying to build real trust with the real people behind the characters. That is how it is different. Because people understand how this line is crossed differently within the game is why lots of people have different views about the ethics of those who play the game. With respect to the eve advertisement - it would be more realistic if they had someone lying to other people on vent over a course of several months in order to take their ingame assets. It would also show him selling those assets buying enough plex to pay for his subscription for for a few years and then going ahead and canceling his subscription which used to be taken out of his bank account. It wouldn't sell eve very well but it would be more realistic of how those sorts of scams are done. Actually, in poker you are lying your ass off constantly... either through verbal misdirection or body language. You are trying your best, usually in very subtle ways, to convince the other playing that it's safe to bet a large sum on the outcome. It's called a bluff. Frankly, nobody forced the "mark" to spend a penny on his hobby. He knew full well he was spending cash to buy destructible/stealable in game items. As far as the EVE video spending more time to show details of HOW to build up the trust of the ruthless players that ganked you previously, and how to finance your EVE gaming entirely from the proceeds... they absolutely should have! Subscriptions would have gone through the roof.
No you are not lying when you play poker. I mean you can lie and say "I have a bad hand stay in" when you have a great hand but that is just silly and not how most poker is played. Its not a game of betraying any trust at all. If for whatever reason the person really beleived those lies (due to age or lack of mental capacity) and you continued to do lie and take advantage of their trust you would be acting unethically. That is pretty much allot of eve lies and "scams."
LOL "the ruthless players that ganked you." See you are trying to suggest that players who are clearly playing the game are "ruthless players." When in fact blowing up other peoples spaceships in a game about blowing up other peoples spaceships does not at all suggest the player is ruthless. Perhaps the character he plays is ruthless but not the person playing it.
This is always the red herring I see people go for to avoid the ethical issues of building real trust between real people and then betraying it for personal gain. Yes that personal gain may be to save time or save a subscription fee or whatever but its a real personal gain not just an in game gain.
That said I will at least concede there could be a possible role play defense. And I will agree that its possible some people are not really bright enough to understand the difference between acting "in game" and "outside the game" as I explained above. I don't find their lack of wit culpable.
As for your thinking showing clips of people on vent gaining the trust of others in real life in order to lie to and betray them would be great marketing .... we will just have to agree to disagree on that. Younger people might like it, but as you get older you get enough of that in real life. From my perspective the idea of wanting more of that in a game is beyond stupid. Maybe my view is unusual because of the amount of it I have had to deal with in the past and currently. But I think it probably the same for allot of people who are older gamers. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Bane Necran
337
|
Posted - 2012.04.20 23:14:00 -
[107] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Compared to other countries, yes Capared to other contries of equal size, no.
When they report violent crime rates they tend to do it 'per 100,000 residents', so total population isn't even an issue. Rates are adjusted for that
Here's a list of the most dangerous cities in the world you may find interesting. And that's just what i could find quickly
Aaannyway, this seems relevant to the discussion
There's a social aspect which we're missing here as well. In many ways corporations encourage psychopathic traits, and the public admires them. Makes me think of a quote by Krishnamurti: GÇ£It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.GÇ¥ |
Poetic Stanziel
Major Kong Freight
814
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 00:05:00 -
[108] - Quote
Cearain wrote:1) Lets say I talk to you on vent and tell you I will not steal from you or your corp in eve.
Is that in game or out of game? It's part of the meta-game ... so in-game.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Leza Bo ManHater
Pyramid Celestial
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 00:09:00 -
[109] - Quote
blah blah blah |
Poetic Stanziel
Major Kong Freight
814
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 00:10:00 -
[110] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:These sniveling brats going around trying to upset others are hiding behind the police. They know they're protected from violence. Carebears and CONCORD!
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
|
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
423
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 03:49:00 -
[111] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Bane Necran wrote:Dawiid BenAimaic wrote:My dad's Uncle Frank made the observation that people were a lot more polite when everyone wore a sidearm. There are places where everyone carries guns, and they aren't anywhere close to that kind of utopia. If you ask me, everyone was more polite before the police existed. You had to watch what you said to others, because if you insulted them they might decide your head would look good on a pike in front of their house, as an example to everyone else. These sniveling brats going around trying to upset others are hiding behind the police. They know they're protected from violence. Interestingly in the US states that have Conceal to Carry permits available have a much lower violent crime rate than states where it is more difficult to legally carry a firearm. Just sayin'.
and yet in Florida, walking down your street can get you murdered by a neighborhood watch guy (who may not get convicted of the crime) due to a law called stand your ground where you are legally allowed to use deadly force if you think your life is threatened. Reminds me of Firefly. "If someone tries to kill you you kill them right back" https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Dawiid BenAimaic
Dasa Fern Valley Jamaican Rum Transport Corp
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 07:03:00 -
[112] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:Came across this on another site and it seemed relevant to the discussion. Very good read. Reading Why We Love Sociopaths made me realize that I not only do not like sociopaths but I also do not find them entertaining. I tolerate sociopaths in game because there are no game mechanics to stop spammers/scammers and blatant personal attacks other than Block. A fair portion of my life has been spent hunting down and stopping the real sociopaths. While I expect that there are a lot of sociopaths in game, I expect that there are more sociopaths on the Baltimore police force than in this game, the in game sociopaths are just more vocal and easy to find. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
228
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 07:09:00 -
[113] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
ppl like this; who blur the in game out of game lines are worrysome
Communications channels pertaining to the game are the definition of meta-game. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
434
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 07:13:00 -
[114] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Bane Necran wrote:These sniveling brats going around trying to upset others are hiding behind the police. They know they're protected from violence. Carebears and CONCORD! My my. Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
228
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 07:14:00 -
[115] - Quote
So I have a question for all you folks who insist that anyone who behaves anti-socially in-game MUST also be sociopaths out-of-game as well. Do you agree with the man in this interview?
Jack Thompson is a man who believes that video games turn people into killers. Essentially he believes that if a person is allowed to act out in an anti-social manner in a video game, that they will do it in real life.
Now, as I understand it, a few of you also seem to think this way, so tell me, would you agree with him? Mind you, this is a man who would have all video games banned. Even a video game as innocuous as The Sims. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
137
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 07:24:00 -
[116] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Dr Silkworth wrote:Sociopath is the word your looking for. No, sociopaths don't feel any emotion. Eve players obviously get a lot of enjoyment out of whatever they do
Not really relevent to the conversation, but I wouldn't bet on that. I think it more likely that sociopaths don't feel emotions the same way as the rest of us. i.e: They are essentially incapable of Love and Hate, but feel basic emotions in one form or another for all the wrong reasons. It's just easier to label tham as being incapable than to fathom that they are. Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
Francisco Bizzaro
34
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 07:46:00 -
[117] - Quote
What's all this about "blowing up ships"? When I log in, I update some database entries, and then non-consensually modify the database entries of some other players. Are you calling me a psychopath because of that??
I didn't realize Eve was so full of role-players.
|
non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
765
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 07:52:00 -
[118] - Quote
Everyone is an expert on sociopaths these days. It's the latest label to place on people and just a huge generalisation. There are levels to how depressed people are and the same thing goes for these sorts of problems. Not everyone you label as a sociopath is 100% sociopath at the extreme end. They have different levels between normal to complete sociopath. It isn't such a cut and dry problem and you shouldn't treat them all as being the same. There are different reasons that people come to be the way they are and it'd be silly to throw them all in the same basket.
Also on the people who are like this in game and how do you know if they're like that out of game and does it mean they're more likely to be sociopaths later on. It's like people who can't separate what happens in a movie from real life. How many people do you see who are like that when it comes movies? |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
137
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 07:56:00 -
[119] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:So I have a question for all you folks who insist that anyone who behaves anti-socially in-game MUST also be sociopaths out-of-game as well. Do you agree with the man in this interview? Jack Thompson is a man who believes that video games turn people into killers. Essentially he believes that if a person is allowed to act out in an anti-social manner in a video game, that they will do it in real life. Now, as I understand it, a few of you also seem to think this way, so tell me, would you agree with him? Mind you, this is a man who would have all video games banned. Even a video game as innocuous as The Sims.
It all seems a little irrational and far-fetched when you listen to them doesn't it. I couldn't watch all of it honestly. Between the raging film maker subtitling through the entire thing in an uninformed fanboy way, and the postulating of the speaker suggesting video games turned people into killers it was just too much.
Anyway, I do agree in part at least with the basic idea presented there. You shouldn't let kids play video games like GTA, and you should restrict their access to the internet. The internet can be a very bad place my friends. Actually serious about that; there are a lot of very weird deviant sorts out there that like to corrupt minds, and not just young ones.
Anyway, children are maleable, easily influenced, and if you have any decency you will not subject them to the likes of Grand Theft Auto. There are plenty of video games that they can play with little or no inappropriate influences but that is not one of them.
I'd rather my kids watched Game of Thrones with all its nudity and violence than have them play that game. At least there are morals and lessons to be learned from such a TV series. I'd still hesitate to let them see it-or anything like it-till they were older though.
Point is, that children, (even up to the age of 14 and after), are developing opinions and views about the world, their place in it, and what they believe to be not only right and wrong, but acceptable and appropriate behaviours. There is a reasonn why tales told ages ago were intended to have a moral, and why they revealed consequences for evil or unsavory acts. They were intended to teach, and we have all but forgotten that now, as a society.
So yes, fundamentally I agree with such trash and tripe as was in that video, but on a more intuitive level I am fully aware that it is prejudiced and perhaps even hypocritical of them. Reasonably, I argue that they are speaking without objectivity and speaking out of their arses.
In short, they have no idea what they are talking about and probably couldn't carel less about it or anyones children, or even the future of mankind. It's just an ego trip for a bunch of self indulgent, over-opinionated windbags, (okay, I never heard what the rest of them had to say, so it's just the first guy to whom I am referring), who are inflating their own egos while preaching to the choir.
They make movies about stuff like this. The Postman comes to mind. What was the name of the guy who wrote that book that everyone thought was the second coming or something. Eventually the world order collapsed and a whole bunch of other stuff, and this all made up the background for the movie? Good movie though. Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3421
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 10:35:00 -
[120] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I truly don't understand why some people can't grasp that can simply be fun to play the bad guy. No -pathy required, I just find it challenging and entertaining to play the part of the villain. It's much more challenging to try and be a nice guy in this game.
And if other players weren't "bad guys" then you couldn't be a "good guy" Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
243
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 10:47:00 -
[121] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Bane Necran wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I truly don't understand why some people can't grasp that can simply be fun to play the bad guy. No -pathy required, I just find it challenging and entertaining to play the part of the villain. It's much more challenging to try and be a nice guy in this game. And if other players weren't "bad guys" then you couldn't be a "good guy"
That's not true, it's just the bad guys would be theoretical.
You don't have to do anything to be a good guy (this can change based on your choice/actions as situations arise) as it's only when you do something bad you become the bad guy.
But bad guys add conflict so EVE would not be EVE without them. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3421
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 10:48:00 -
[122] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
No you are not lying when you play poker. I mean you can lie and say "I have a bad hand stay in" when you have a great hand but that is just silly and not how most poker is played. Its not a game of betraying any trust at all.
If you don't think that Poker is fundamentally based on deception then all I can say is pull up a chair and let me deal you a hand, pardner
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3421
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 10:53:00 -
[123] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:Malcanis wrote:Bane Necran wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I truly don't understand why some people can't grasp that can simply be fun to play the bad guy. No -pathy required, I just find it challenging and entertaining to play the part of the villain. It's much more challenging to try and be a nice guy in this game. And if other players weren't "bad guys" then you couldn't be a "good guy" That's not true, it's just the bad guys would be theoretical. You don't have to do anything to be a good guy (this can change based on your choice/actions as situations arise) as it's only when you do something bad you become the bad guy. But bad guys add conflict so EVE would not be EVE without them.
I bolded the part where you are 100% completely massively and really, sadly wrong.
Being a good guy isn't just not doing anything bad today. You actually have to do good stuff that means something. When everyone is "good" because they have no choice to be bad, how can we say anyone is good? It becomes meaningless as describing someone as "he's definitely hurglegurblish" or "what an unusually asdgfgy person". If you don't have to do anything to be a good guy, just not doing anything evil suffices, can we say that Pol Pot was a good guy while he was eating breakfast? Was Ghengis Khan virtuous while he was scratching his ass? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Spectre80
The Knights Templar Intrepid Crossing
62
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 11:09:00 -
[124] - Quote
malcanis. u be trying too hard to convince people on your views. just wont happen. |
Ank Parkor
WildSpace Otters
29
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 11:20:00 -
[125] - Quote
Very well written OP. I'll thow my 2c.
As a general practitioner IRL, a very interested person in human behavior and long time MMO player I have always consider that in game behavior is the mirror of RL without social restrictions.
Laws, the others judgement (and fear of course), the commonly accepted way of life are things that disallow us to behave as in video games. Not inherate morality, empathy or whatever.
The only thing our kind knows is the rule of the strongest. Our real behavior ruled by our biology is masked by social laws. It appears when you remove them, like in EVE.
I has nothing to see with good or bad. That's the way mankind exists, the way all successful species live. Sad but true. Short time trader, short term missionner, long term ambitions. |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
243
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 11:40:00 -
[126] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Sasha Azala wrote:Malcanis wrote:Bane Necran wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I truly don't understand why some people can't grasp that can simply be fun to play the bad guy. No -pathy required, I just find it challenging and entertaining to play the part of the villain. It's much more challenging to try and be a nice guy in this game. And if other players weren't "bad guys" then you couldn't be a "good guy" That's not true, it's just the bad guys would be theoretical. You don't have to do anything to be a good guy (this can change based on your choice/actions as situations arise) as it's only when you do something bad you become the bad guy. But bad guys add conflict so EVE would not be EVE without them. I bolded the part where you are 100% completely massively and really, sadly wrong. Being a good guy isn't just not doing anything bad today. You actually have to do good stuff that means something. When everyone is "good" because they have no choice to be bad, how can we say anyone is good? It becomes meaningless as describing someone as "he's definitely hurglegurblish" or "what an unusually asdgfgy person". If you don't have to do anything to be a good guy, just not doing anything evil suffices, can we say that Pol Pot was a good guy while he was eating breakfast? Was Ghengis Khan virtuous while he was scratching his ass?
Lol
Good does not become meaningless just because there is no bad present, because doing bad always remains a possibility if one desired to go that route.
A person can do good and bad deeds in the same day just not at the same time but they would not be seen as being good because of the bad deeds (although by some they might be perceived as being good if they did not know of the bad deeds) .
Your stupid eating breakfast and scratching ones arse comments are not even worthy of anymore comment.
You don't have to be recognised as being good to be good, it's your choices/actions when situations arise that defines if you are good or not.
Note: Second attempt at this reply, but the forum was hungry, so although not as good as the first one it'll do. |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
276
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 11:51:00 -
[127] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:I'm personally ok with thieving and scamming in EVE, even though i don't partake in those activities myself. And i don't even consider those psychopathic traits on their own
However, the people who do set off my psychopath alarms online, are those who not only seek to cause emotional harm to others, but get a rush out of doing it. That is textbook psychopathy. And not just an act they're putting on. Doing certain things can be an act, but how they react to the things they do gives them away. They are incapable of emotions which are considered higher thought processes like empathy, yet have all the basic 'proto-emotions' like rage or envy. They see people who are capable of emotions they aren't as weaker, and believe they are superior because they they aren't held back in life by things like compassion or remorse
But that's not to say they're out there in real life doing those things to others if they do it in a game. There's a good book called "The Mask of Sanity" which explains what that's all about. Basically, psychopaths know they aren't like other people, and become very adept at appearing to be like everyone else to blend in. They can't actually have a lot of emotions those around them do, but learn to mimic them. They know they're supposed to feel guilty about certain things, for example, so they act guilty, and may even make the most convincing apology you've ever heard, but it's all just an empty machine response. For these reasons it's extremely hard for a psychologist to diagnose someone as a psychopath, without them getting caught doing something extreme which they can't talk themselves out of. They could be anyone you know, and contrary to what Hollywood shows, they're superb impression managers, and usually don't creep people out or anything. In fact quite the opposite, they're more likely to act in a way which makes you give them your complete trust
What the internet and games like EVE offer them, is an escape from all that, where they don't have to pretend anymore, and can just revel in their true nature. I think some people out there are just pathetically trying to act like the bad guy in a movie they saw, because they think he's cool or something, but like i said earlier, it's how they react to the things they do which gives them away. Still not enough evidence to be sure, but it's a damned good indication. An excellent read. |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
276
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 11:52:00 -
[128] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Why is it the smartest people in the world always agree with me? Funny that,no?
The OP "seems" to make sense if one applies a mass-media acquired understanding of the elements he/she chooses to address. The big HOWEVER to all this is, fortunately (or no), nobody's exitting reality to boot this game. Everyone is as ensconced in this time/space frame as they were before they clicked that icon. Furthermore, if anyone believes they ARE in another reality (virtual, or no) when they enter the game, there's a diagnosis for that as well.
Absolving themselves from the consequences of their acts because people choose to imagine that nothing "real" is happening anyway is merely a form of self-delusion, and anyone who feels that's a necessary step to take before engaging in immoral or unethical behavior at least has the virtue of realizing it is a step from civil behavior into uncivil behavior. Quite literally, it is a step from cerebral cortex mitigated behavior into reptilian stem behavior, or a giant leap into the animalistic past.
The OP seems to confuse psychopathy with anti-social personality disorder. Though the two are related in many ways, the psychopathy is expressed in many different disorders. ASPD is expressed in many different ways. It used to be called sociopathy, and was associated strictly with violent criminals that had no remorse for their activities. However, the science has come to accept this behavior isn't limited to serial killers. It's found in the wide spectrum of societal positions as defined by activities, from the board room to the construction site if you will...and yes, in EVE, as well.
The truest marker of this behavior is does the activity engaged in generate activity in the frontal lobe of the brain, or can it be completed within the reptilian stem: The frontal lobe being where the "rights and wrongs" of behavior are mititgated. The reptilian stem being bereft of such considerations. The existence of remorse or feelings of "guilt" are the generally accepted markers.
One might pretend to attempt to imitate a psychopath, or ASPD, but it's difficult to be assured that being capable of such behavior on any level, under any pretense isn't symptomatic of possessing these disorders. Having a group of peers insist this is all mistaken thinking, or having the individual in question insisting it was all just pretense, or virtual, is inconsequential at best. No one possessing any of this array of disorders is likely to admit this as fact, either through ignorance, pure unawareness, or flat denial to further the aims these disorders demand.
ASPD is believed to prevail within Western society (from 60 upwards to 80% depending on what study you read) so it's not only highly unlikely, but it's rather naive as well to believe EVE doesn't have its share on a percentage basis. As the prevailing behavior exhibited by EVE players - or even the behavior celebrated by a large portion of EVE players, is precisely the type of behavior diagnosed as part of this spectrum of disorders, it would be be unusual (or odd) if ASPD were not present in a density reflective of the general population.
Psychopathy, on the other hand, has a smaller spectrum insofar as is understood at present. However, it wouldn't be surprising if EVE had its fair share of those, as well. Be it ASPD or Psychopathy, it's futile to point out and castigate people for this behavior, as they are incapable of realizing or understanding the point you'd be trying to make. One must either accept its presence and live with it, or move on in hopes of finding somewhere they aren't present. Given the pervasive presence of ASPD especially, it's highly unlikely such a place exists, and if you think you've found one, you may be deluding yourself....or wishful thinking. Another great read worth quoting. Thank you. |
Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
111
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 12:24:00 -
[129] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Dr Silkworth wrote:Sociopath is the word your looking for. No, sociopaths don't feel any emotion. Eve players obviously get a lot of enjoyment out of whatever they do Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
FAI, The Mittani is a lamer compared to the guy who spent 130 million euros of public treasury to build an unnecessary airport without airplanes nor any plan to have them, and then built a statue of himself on top of it for 300,000 euros.
Awesome
Sociopaths can feel emotion. Some have emotions so attuned to the point that they can read someone through text alone. They aren't without emotion, just prone to concealing their own for various reasons.
|
ElQuirko
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
581
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 12:27:00 -
[130] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote: Your take on the second world war is not even worth going into, I don't know which film you watched.
You're a moron if you think I'm talking about the second world war...
If we distribute pictures of people, does that mean God can file copyright claims under SOPA? |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3422
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 13:04:00 -
[131] - Quote
Spectre80 wrote:malcanis. u be trying too hard to convince people on your views. just wont happen.
I have faith Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3422
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 13:09:00 -
[132] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote: Lol
Good does not become meaningless just because there is no bad present, because doing bad always remains a possibility if one desired to go that route.
A person can do good and bad deeds in the same day just not at the same time but they would not be seen as being good because of the bad deeds (although by some they might be perceived as being good if they did not know of the bad deeds) .
Your stupid eating breakfast and scratching ones arse comments are not even worthy of anymore comment.
You don't have to be recognised as being good to be good, it's your choices/actions when situations arise that defines if you are good or not.
Note: Second attempt at this reply, but the forum was hungry, so although not as good as the first one it'll do.
I like the way you say you completely disagree with me and then, in your closing sentence, restate my point. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
244
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 13:25:00 -
[133] - Quote
ElQuirko wrote:Sasha Azala wrote: Your take on the second world war is not even worth going into, I don't know which film you watched. You're a moron if you think I'm talking about the second world war...
ElQuirko wrote:Now, I've heard the expression that "all internet arguments lead back to the *****", but for once I need to make a relevant point using them. Take the concentration camps, the brutal murders, the smashing of Jewish shops on Kristalnacht. All of these occurred because there would be no repercussions for doing it. The ***** encouraged people to put their animal side to use. People will go along with anything in a group or when there is no possibility of them being punished. The only exception to this, of course, is the hardcore group with a moral compass etched into the very fabric of their existence - great men such as Gandhi, who never believed in any kind of harm to their fellow men.
ElQuirko wrote:All in all, I believe that, given the chance, people would act like they do in EVE in reality if they had the same kind of anonymity or freedom to commit the acts without repercussion. I thankyou for reading my mini-essay.
You were talking about 1938, although the concentration camps were still being used in 1945.
Although WW2 started in 1939, the first thing you would do is to secure your homeland as you need a secure base of operations. Was Crystal Night part of that reasoning (I know there were other reasons behind it), that I can't say. But the war machine would have been gearing up in 1938.
Hatred and propaganda fueled Crystal Night not the fact they thought they could get away from any consequenses although that fact would have made it easier.
ElQuirko wrote:All in all, I believe that, given the chance, people would act like they do in EVE in reality if they had the same kind of anonymity or freedom to commit the acts without repercussion. I thankyou for reading my mini-essay.
Given the chance some evil power hungry self-centred people would indeed take advantage of others (but they would be a minority others would join them out of self preservation). Which is why we have laws that have consequences. |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
244
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 13:33:00 -
[134] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Sasha Azala wrote: Lol
Good does not become meaningless just because there is no bad present, because doing bad always remains a possibility if one desired to go that route.
A person can do good and bad deeds in the same day just not at the same time but they would not be seen as being good because of the bad deeds (although by some they might be perceived as being good if they did not know of the bad deeds) .
Your stupid eating breakfast and scratching ones arse comments are not even worthy of anymore comment.
You don't have to be recognised as being good to be good, it's your choices/actions when situations arise that defines if you are good or not.
Note: Second attempt at this reply, but the forum was hungry, so although not as good as the first one it'll do.
I like the way you say you completely disagree with me and then, in your closing sentence, restate my point.
Except I was restating what I originally said the part contained within brackets. |
Gorki Andropov
Kerensky Initiatives
318
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 13:34:00 -
[135] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Scamming for in-game stuff is one thing, but actually going out of your way to convince someone to sink money into plex in order to take that isk is not only ****** up, but also against the TOS.
You never, ever scam for real things!
So persuading someone to do something of their own volition is against the ToS? I'd like to see where it says that (exactly) |
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
327
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 13:53:00 -
[136] - Quote
It's a perspective issue, based on the involvement the observer has in the game.
When I gank the everloving poopoo out of a missioner and spout my usual faux-taunting on the blog post the following happens in most cases:
1) The missioner looks for all sort of excuses to make me into some sociopathic villain because it makes him feel better, they like to imply all sorts of things about my real life persona. Baseless conjecture.
2) I feel no different than when you land on one of my squares in monopoly.
See the difference in perspective there?
Now, the question then, who has the major psychological malfunction here? |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
345
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 14:03:00 -
[137] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Malcanis wrote:Tricking someone into thinking you have an ace-high straight and taking a large amount of real life money from them as a result? Well played sir, oh good game! Tricking someone into thinking you have a Titan for sales and taking a large amount of imaginary pixel-money from them as a result? U R MENTALLY SICK SOCIOPATH!!!!11 Obviously it's the lack of real life consequences that make the difference. Poker game where everyone knows there is money on the table. In game scam targeting in game money. In game scam targeting out of game money. These three things are different. So you're not aware that bluffing, I mean scamming, is part of the game in EVE? I mean CCP even made an EVE advert advocaing corp theft as a method of revenge! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGplrpWvz0ISo how exactly is this different? Because your not corp thieving from the corp the person works for (IRL)?
How can you not get that (subtle) difference? An "in game" scam, targeting out of game, RL money, looks the same to you as either playing poker, or scamming people entirely in game?
wow...
Hell, I have an alt that makes a good living in Jita for me, selling things that aren't as they seem. Urging/cajoling/bullying/convincing someone to spend RL money to get at in game assets they otherwise would not have done seems like it actually comes dangerously close to something that lawyers could make lots of noise about.
Think about it and why it might be a "bad thing"....
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
339
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 14:09:00 -
[138] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Cearain wrote:
No you are not lying when you play poker. I mean you can lie and say "I have a bad hand stay in" when you have a great hand but that is just silly and not how most poker is played. Its not a game of betraying any trust at all.
If you don't think that Poker is fundamentally based on deception then all I can say is pull up a chair and let me deal you a hand, pardner
Your starting to change what I said slightly in order to try to blur the lines.
I would say poker is based on misdirection.
Its not based on betraying trust. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Eso Es
Nehalem Inc. Li3 Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 14:15:00 -
[139] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote: Apparently you don't know eve players very well. I was gang leader in a 2 man fleet with a good irl friend in 0.0 when the **** hit the fan and we had to find a way out. Bad people had a gatecamp set up on one gate and had a scout watching the other, no doubt having their whole fleet ready to chase anyone with the audacity to try to slip past. So I got a brilliant plan to get out of the situation, I would gang warp us to the camped gate and cancel my warp leaving him the sole target of the enemy fleet while I slipped to safety. Brilliant!Anyway I got the gates confused and warped him to safety while I went to the gatecamp He thought it was funny as hell because I got my comeuppance
Brlliant, +1 :D |
Memrox
Blackwater Company.
36
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 14:16:00 -
[140] - Quote
I mostly do bad things in Eve and im bad IRL..... :D |
|
Gorki Andropov
Kerensky Initiatives
318
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 14:30:00 -
[141] - Quote
Memrox wrote:I mostly do bad things in Eve and im bad IRL..... :D
"Bad guy and all-round bad seed is misanthrope, uses smilies" |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
278
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 15:41:00 -
[142] - Quote
Poker, monopoly, and chess all have a common, clear, and defined goal intrinsic and necessary for winning the game. Eve does not. Comparing Eve to these games is fundamentally wrong.
You don't have to betray or scam in order to "win" Eve. And you definitely don't have to be a prick or sadistical a*hole either. Sure, you can make it your own personal goals and choose to do these things. But they are not intrinsic in the sense that you have to or else you will lose.
That's what makes these comparisons to Eve (usually chess, poker, and monopoly) a flawed argument.
|
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
328
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 15:54:00 -
[143] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Poker, monopoly, and chess all have a common, clear, and defined goal intrinsic and necessary for winning the game. Eve does not. Comparing Eve to these games is fundamentally wrong.
You don't have to betray or scam in order to "win" Eve. And you definitely don't have to be a prick or sadistical a*hole either. Sure, you can make it your own personal goals and choose to do these things. But they are not intrinsic in the sense that you have to or else you will lose.
That's what makes these comparisons to Eve (usually chess, poker, and monopoly) a flawed argument.
Incorrect, apart from the fact you may design your own objective (mine is to use the many tools the game has for destroying ships for their intended purpose, while trying to lose as few as possible myself) it is PRECISELY like monopoly.
EVE is a zero sum game. Everytime you "win" at anything, from selling your products before someone else, to destroying an alliance, someone else loses.
Any attempts to assign qualitative statements about modes of gameplay you do not participate in are frankly just attempts to boost your own morale.
I don't hate miners. I do hate miners that think they can be afk and get money for nothing while being 100% safe. It goes against the design of the game mechanics, and when these mechanics bite them in the ass they cry a whole lot.
I applaud hard working industrialists that have well organized operations and clever business models.
If you're gonna AFK mine, or just generally don't want to bother ensuring you don't get blown up, that is absolutely fine. I may not agree with it, but that is your choice.
But don't cry when your own choice of playstyle bites you in the bum because the mechanics allow for others to prey upon you if you do it. You took that chance yourself, and sometimes you will pay the price for it.
|
Bane Necran
343
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 16:05:00 -
[144] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote:EVE is a zero sum game. Everytime you "win" at anything, from selling your products before someone else, to destroying an alliance, someone else loses.
Ok, but all he's saying is you don't have to lie cheat and steal to get to the top in EVE, it;s just the easiest and most popular route. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
229
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 16:30:00 -
[145] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:So I have a question for all you folks who insist that anyone who behaves anti-socially in-game MUST also be sociopaths out-of-game as well. Do you agree with the man in this interview? Jack Thompson is a man who believes that video games turn people into killers. Essentially he believes that if a person is allowed to act out in an anti-social manner in a video game, that they will do it in real life. Now, as I understand it, a few of you also seem to think this way, so tell me, would you agree with him? Mind you, this is a man who would have all video games banned. Even a video game as innocuous as The Sims. It all seems a little irrational and far-fetched when you listen to them doesn't it. I couldn't watch all of it honestly. Between the raging film maker subtitling through the entire thing in an uninformed fanboy way, and the postulating of the speaker suggesting video games turned people into killers it was just too much. Anyway, I do agree in part at least with the basic idea presented there. You shouldn't let kids play video games like GTA, and you should restrict their access to the internet. The internet can be a very bad place my friends. Actually serious about that; there are a lot of very weird deviant sorts out there that like to corrupt minds, and not just young ones. Anyway, children are maleable, easily influenced, and if you have any decency you will not subject them to the likes of Grand Theft Auto. There are plenty of video games that they can play with little or no inappropriate influences but that is not one of them. I'd rather my kids watched Game of Thrones with all its nudity and violence than have them play that game. At least there are morals and lessons to be learned from such a TV series. I'd still hesitate to let them see it-or anything like it-till they were older though. Point is, that children, (even up to the age of 14 and after), are developing opinions and views about the world, their place in it, and what they believe to be not only right and wrong, but acceptable and appropriate behaviours. There is a reasonn why tales told ages ago were intended to have a moral, and why they revealed consequences for evil or unsavory acts. They were intended to teach, and we have all but forgotten that now, as a society. So yes, fundamentally I agree with such trash and tripe as was in that video, but on a more intuitive level I am fully aware that it is prejudiced and perhaps even hypocritical of them. Reasonably, I argue that they are speaking without objectivity and speaking out of their arses. In short, they have no idea what they are talking about and probably couldn't carel less about it or anyones children, or even the future of mankind. It's just an ego trip for a bunch of self indulgent, over-opinionated windbags, (okay, I never heard what the rest of them had to say, so it's just the first guy to whom I am referring), who are inflating their own egos while preaching to the choir. They make movies about stuff like this. The Postman comes to mind. What was the name of the guy who wrote that book that everyone thought was the second coming or something. Eventually the world order collapsed and a whole bunch of other stuff, and this all made up the background for the movie? Good movie though.
The name of the guy was Nathan Holn. God I love The Postman. Jack Thompson not only believes that video games like Grand Theft Auto should be kept out of the hands of kids. He believes they should be kept out of the hands of everybody. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
339
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 19:40:00 -
[146] - Quote
Here is an interesting blog that I think is relevant to this topic.
http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/living-a-lie-the-truth-behind-the-name/
It is about a someone who was drawn to eve due to the spying aspect of eve. I don't want to say more because she is a much better writer than I am and I would just botch it. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3423
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 19:56:00 -
[147] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Poker, monopoly, and chess all have a common, clear, and defined goal intrinsic and necessary for winning the game. Eve does not. Comparing Eve to these games is fundamentally wrong.
You don't have to betray or scam in order to "win" Eve. And you definitely don't have to be a prick or sadistical a*hole either. Sure, you can make it your own personal goals and choose to do these things. But they are not intrinsic in the sense that you have to or else you will lose.
That's what makes these comparisons to Eve (usually chess, poker, and monopoly) a flawed argument.
What does that matter though? Deception for personal gain is a part of EVE and it's a part of Poker. You don't have to bluff at Poker if you don't want to. In fact you're quite at liberty to simply show everyone your cards whenever you like.
I personally play EVE the "dumb" way and have never scammed or corp-thieved, but I don't think that makes me, the physical human being behind Malcanis a better person than, say, the real actual person behind Istvaan Shogutsu. It's just the way I choose to play this particular character.
I've done the roleplaying a mean sonofabitch thing and done it damb well thank you - I used to love playing AD&D, Rolemaster, Travaller, etc, with a bunch of my friends, and in several of the campaigns we played, I was the sneakiest, trickiest weasel you could imagine. You want an RP challenge? Try staying on the right side of a Good-aligned party including a Paladin and a Cavalier when you're a True-Neutral, whilst still maintaining your alignment. (To this day I maintain that I can produce a perfectly watertight moral and legal justification for my secret police murder-squad, I tell you!)
When my poor old I-Am-Not-A-Crook TN guy finally came to grief and his schemes were revealed, I didn't hate my friends for playing their characters and Doing The Right Thing, and they didn't kick me out of the group for being a lying murdering (although it wasn't murder, I tell you!) thief, they agreed that I'd done an awesome job of maintaining true neutrality and that I'd played the game really well to escape with my character's life and all his tastefully chosen slection of magical items.
And when I came up with a way to bring him back.... they also congratulated me on finding a way to make them an offer they couldn't bring themselves to refuse. No hard feelings again.
I'm not a sociopath, I'm not a bad person, but I did do a damb fine job of playing a character who was a borderline one. It was interesting and fun and challenging, and it contributed to the learning, fun and challenge of the game that the other players enjoyed. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
816
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 20:08:00 -
[148] - Quote
My favourite RPG. EVE Online is the closest realization to that fantastic game and universe. Oh how I wish EVE had its own version of The Spinward Marches.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3423
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 20:12:00 -
[149] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:My favourite RPG. EVE Online is the closest realization to that fantastic game and universe. Oh how I wish EVE had its own version of The Spinward Marches.
I preferred Spacemaster, but that was perhaps because the guy who ran the Traveller campaign wasn't as good a GM Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
341
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 20:12:00 -
[150] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Poker, monopoly, and chess all have a common, clear, and defined goal intrinsic and necessary for winning the game. Eve does not. Comparing Eve to these games is fundamentally wrong.
You don't have to betray or scam in order to "win" Eve. And you definitely don't have to be a prick or sadistical a*hole either. Sure, you can make it your own personal goals and choose to do these things. But they are not intrinsic in the sense that you have to or else you will lose.
That's what makes these comparisons to Eve (usually chess, poker, and monopoly) a flawed argument.
What does that matter though? Deception for personal gain is a part of EVE and it's a part of Poker. You don't have to bluff at Poker if you don't want to. In fact you're quite at liberty to simply show everyone your cards whenever you like. ...
Your constant leaning on poker as a game for deceiptful people makes me wonder if you think faking a pass in basketball is also decieptful.
Misdirection becomes unethical/deceiptful only when you know the party you are misdirecting trusts you. In poker, chess and basketball you know they are not trusting you. In eve they are trusting you. And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
816
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 20:37:00 -
[151] - Quote
Cearain wrote:And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character. Well, then they are silly, because they likely know nothing about the real person. They are trusting nothing more than a caricature, a character.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
435
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 20:40:00 -
[152] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Cearain wrote:And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character. Well, then they are silly, because they likely know nothing about the real person. They are trusting nothing more than a caricature, a character. I trust you, so you can't cheat me ~ Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3423
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 20:52:00 -
[153] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Malcanis wrote:MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Poker, monopoly, and chess all have a common, clear, and defined goal intrinsic and necessary for winning the game. Eve does not. Comparing Eve to these games is fundamentally wrong.
You don't have to betray or scam in order to "win" Eve. And you definitely don't have to be a prick or sadistical a*hole either. Sure, you can make it your own personal goals and choose to do these things. But they are not intrinsic in the sense that you have to or else you will lose.
That's what makes these comparisons to Eve (usually chess, poker, and monopoly) a flawed argument.
What does that matter though? Deception for personal gain is a part of EVE and it's a part of Poker. You don't have to bluff at Poker if you don't want to. In fact you're quite at liberty to simply show everyone your cards whenever you like. ... Your constant leaning on poker as a game for deceiptful people makes me wonder if you think faking a pass in basketball is also decieptful. Misdirection becomes unethical/deceiptful only when you know the party you are misdirecting trusts you. In poker, chess and basketball you know they are not trusting you. In eve they are trusting you. And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character.
Welcome to EVE. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
342
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 21:03:00 -
[154] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Cearain wrote:And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character. Well, then they are silly, because they likely know nothing about the real person. They are trusting nothing more than a caricature, a character.
How do you know? Do you not think people who play this game, get to know eachother in real life?
Plus I think you have it reversed. I usually know very little about the character but instead talk to the people playing the character.
I have never been in vent were people were actually role playing their character. It is clearly a conversation with another real person. We don't even talk about eve allot of the time.
I hardly know anything about peoples characters unless I decide to read a role play blog about the character. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
342
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 21:26:00 -
[155] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Cearain wrote:And its not your character they are trusting it is you the real person playing the character. Well, then they are silly, because they likely know nothing about the real person. They are trusting nothing more than a caricature, a character. I trust you, so you can't cheat me ~
No you don't, so itGÇÖs fine. Anyway cheating is allowed, so there is no cheating.
I do think there is a gray area in eve. I'm not saying that everyone who deceived people over vent in this game are horrible people. But some are. And for some of them ripping off people who they got to trust them in eve is just being themselves.
ItGÇÖs not so much that I am surprised or horrified that someone got defrauded out of a few hundred dollars worth of internet space ships.
What I find surprising is how naive certain players are in thinking, that none of the lying for spaceship glory could be the result of people who are indeed just scumbags. Rotten people doing what comes naturally to them. You know, there are, in fact, ****** people in real life. And they can download eve just like you can. And they very well may enjoy being deceitful to people in relation to this game just like in every other aspect of their lives.
I also find it interesting how defensive people get.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
816
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 23:09:00 -
[156] - Quote
Cearain wrote:What I find surprising is how naive certain players are in thinking, that none of the lying for spaceship glory could be the result of people who are indeed just scumbags. Rotten people doing what comes naturally to them. You know, there are, in fact, ****** people in real life. And they can download eve just like you can. And they very well may enjoy being deceitful to people in relation to this game just like in every other aspect of their lives. You make fine and valid points.
What pisses me off is that some people will paint anyone who ganks a Hulk as a socio/psychopath, a generally bad person in real life. That attitude/thinking/reasoning is simply garbage.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
692
|
Posted - 2012.04.21 23:24:00 -
[157] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote: What pisses me off is that some people will paint anyone who ganks a Hulk as a socio/psychopath, a generally bad person in real life. That attitude/thinking/reasoning is simply garbage.
And that is your opinion. That you discount the opinion or view, or feelings is what is at the root of this. If you do not care about how someone else feels about their pixel space ship, RL feelings that person may have, then to you it is an okay thing - their feelings don't matter to you, the pixel space ship is secondary.
It's a game, if you want to pretend to be a heartless scum bag that doesn't care about the golden rule, go for it. But don't whine when someone calls you a heartless scum bag. Their feelings don't matter to you, why the hell should your feelings matter to them?
Cry more scum bag :) |
Kengutsi Akira
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
424
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 00:54:00 -
[158] - Quote
Helicity Boson wrote: stuff
THIS is definately a psychopath.
organizes a event to harvest tears... yea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1109909#post1109909
My stance on WiS (updated) |
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
817
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 01:19:00 -
[159] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Cry more scum bag Now you've gone and hurt my feelings, psycho! The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
693
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 03:22:00 -
[160] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Cry more scum bag Now you've gone and hurt my feelings, psycho!
My appologies. |
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
230
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 03:44:00 -
[161] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote: What pisses me off is that some people will paint anyone who ganks a Hulk as a socio/psychopath, a generally bad person in real life. That attitude/thinking/reasoning is simply garbage.
And that is your opinion. That you discount the opinion or view, or feelings is what is at the root of this. If you do not care about how someone else feels about their pixel space ship, RL feelings that person may have, then to you it is an okay thing - their feelings don't matter to you, the pixel space ship is secondary. It's a game, if you want to pretend to be a heartless scum bag that doesn't care about the golden rule, go for it. But don't whine when someone calls you a heartless scum bag. Their feelings don't matter to you, why the hell should your feelings matter to them? Cry more scum bag :)
Wait, what if we don't care about someone's pretend spaceship because it is just pretend? Are we still scumbags for not caring about a persons pretend things? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
438
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 03:48:00 -
[162] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Wait, what if we don't care about someone's pretend spaceship because it is just pretend? Are we still scumbags for not caring about a persons pretend things? My imaginary friend ~ Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
693
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 03:49:00 -
[163] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote: Wait, what if we don't care about someone's pretend spaceship because it is just pretend? Are we still scumbags for not caring about a persons pretend things?
You missed the point, the pretend space ship is secondary. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
230
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 03:51:00 -
[164] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: Wait, what if we don't care about someone's pretend spaceship because it is just pretend? Are we still scumbags for not caring about a persons pretend things?
You missed the point, the pretend space ship is secondary.
So what is primary? The persons feelings about their pretend spaceship? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Eternum Praetorian
Malum Crusis
636
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 03:53:00 -
[165] - Quote
I like these sub-posts on your blog.
Quote: Hell, look at me: I'm a real world nutcase who's a nuise gai in EVE, just a moron and terrible PvPer. ;-)
As for Mittens, well, he's a lawyer. At least insofar as civil law is concerned, their whole profession revolves around legitimizing and "gaming the system" to effectively grief people. EVE, indeed, is real, it seems. ;-)
Personally I would consider the Japanese scenario to be more that the "straight-laced rigid exterior" is more of a facade, albeit carefully maintained, but still a facade, over the "true" selves. I have a dear friend from HS days who just came back from spending 6 yrs in Japan teaching Engrish. She said that over there, alcohol is consumed in astounding quantities, ostensibly just to "let go" of the rigid facade -- it's such an ingrained thing for them. And, here's the interesting part, corollary to the "EVE is just a 'release'" idea: what happens when you're drunk there, stays at when you were drunk. Interesting when you compare it to Western culture, where "what happens when you're drunk goes on Facebook and everyone lulz or raeg!es at you about it."
&
Quote:
Psychopathic in-game behaviour as a way for people to let off steam sounds like a better explanation than pretending there are no connections between in-game behaviour and real life behaviour.
&
Quote:There are grey areas to almost every moral decission. Its those grey areas where we get ourselves into trouble, where we justify our actions and convince ourselves that those actions are morally defensible. In game, we can play whatever character we please, then log off and continue playing the character we choose in RL.
But those damned grey areas keep poping up. In this particular case, there was a character who was perpetrating a scam that bled into RL and a victim whose in game decission affected his RL bank account.
Stay clear of those grey areas and you can play any character you want. Cross that line, though, and your in game character starts to look a lot like your RL character.
Some really good stuff there, to bad it contradicts everything that you said.
|
Basileus Volkan
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
115
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 03:55:00 -
[166] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote: It's a game, if you want to pretend to be a heartless scum bag that doesn't care about the golden rule, go for it. But don't whine when someone calls you a heartless scum bag. )
Since obviously "pretending to be something" equals "being something all the time forever". |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
693
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 03:55:00 -
[167] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote: So what is primary? The persons feelings about their pretend spaceship?
Yep. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
230
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 03:56:00 -
[168] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: So what is primary? The persons feelings about their pretend spaceship?
Yep.
Does it make me a heartless prick if I don't care about a persons feelings toward their pretend spaceship? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
693
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 03:56:00 -
[169] - Quote
Basileus Volkan wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote: It's a game, if you want to pretend to be a heartless scum bag that doesn't care about the golden rule, go for it. But don't whine when someone calls you a heartless scum bag. )
Since obviously "pretending to be something" equals "being something all the time forever".
You miss the point too. Just because the space ship is a cartoon, doesn't mean some one won't have any emotional investment in the pretend thing. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
693
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 03:57:00 -
[170] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: So what is primary? The persons feelings about their pretend spaceship?
Yep. Does it make me a heartless prick if I don't care about a persons feelings toward their pretend spaceship?
Yep. |
|
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
230
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 04:02:00 -
[171] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: So what is primary? The persons feelings about their pretend spaceship?
Yep. Does it make me a heartless prick if I don't care about a persons feelings toward their pretend spaceship? Yep.
Does that make me a violent sociopath in real life? Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Basileus Volkan
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
115
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 04:05:00 -
[172] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Basileus Volkan wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote: It's a game, if you want to pretend to be a heartless scum bag that doesn't care about the golden rule, go for it. But don't whine when someone calls you a heartless scum bag. )
Since obviously "pretending to be something" equals "being something all the time forever". You miss the point too. Just because the space ship is a cartoon, doesn't mean some one won't have any emotional investment in the pretend thing.
Emotional investment is relative. Just because someone has a huge amount of investment in, say, his favorite hulk doesn't somehow affect the rest of the (decidedly uncaring) universe.
In fact, if you (As in "Someone", not you specifically) put so much into a game that you get upset about being blown up the problem lies mainly with you, not the rest of the game. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
693
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 04:17:00 -
[173] - Quote
Basileus Volkan wrote: Emotional investment is relative. Just because someone has a huge investment in, say, his favorite hulk doesn't somehow affect the rest of the (decidedly uncaring) universe.
No, it is absolute. You either care about someone else's feelings or you don't.
Basileus Volkan wrote: In fact, if you (As in "Someone", not you specifically) put so much into a game that you get upset about being blown up the problem lies mainly with you, not the rest of the game.
I'm not trying to 'fix' anything, so no problem to solve with regards to the 'game'. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
693
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 04:19:00 -
[174] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: So what is primary? The persons feelings about their pretend spaceship?
Yep. Does it make me a heartless prick if I don't care about a persons feelings toward their pretend spaceship? Yep. Does that make me a violent sociopath in real life?
Nope. Being a violent sociopath in real life makes you a violent sociopath in real life.
Does someone in the game calling you a "real life violent sociopath" bother you? |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
230
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 04:24:00 -
[175] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Nope. Being a violent sociopath in real life makes you a violent sociopath in real life.
Does someone in the game calling you a "real life violent sociopath" bother you?
I would be lying if I said it wasn't frustrating a little bit for being labelled a sociopath by armchair psychologists for pretend actions in a video game about pretend spaceships.
Especially when it always seems as though THEY are the ones who cannot distinguish reality from fantasy. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
693
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 04:26:00 -
[176] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Nope. Being a violent sociopath in real life makes you a violent sociopath in real life.
Does someone in the game calling you a "real life violent sociopath" bother you? I would be lying if I said it wasn't frustrating a little bit for being labelled a sociopath by armchair psychologists for pretend actions in a video game about pretend spaceships. Especially when it always seems as though THEY are the ones who cannot distinguish reality from fantasy.
It is their emotions that are real. The context of the setting in which those emotions manifest is not relevant. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
230
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 04:28:00 -
[177] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Lapine Davion wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Nope. Being a violent sociopath in real life makes you a violent sociopath in real life.
Does someone in the game calling you a "real life violent sociopath" bother you? I would be lying if I said it wasn't frustrating a little bit for being labelled a sociopath by armchair psychologists for pretend actions in a video game about pretend spaceships. Especially when it always seems as though THEY are the ones who cannot distinguish reality from fantasy. It is their emotions that are real. The context of the setting in which those emotions manifest is not relevant.
But the setting is what it is all about. It is the difference between someone being upset that their car caught fire and someone being upset that their pretend spaceship blew up. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
693
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 04:31:00 -
[178] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote: But the setting is what it is all about. It is the difference between someone being upset that their car caught fire and someone being upset that their pretend spaceship blew up.
That however is not for you to decide. One's emotional attachment to their pixel space ship is not yours to determine. You can only determine your emotional attachment to your pixel space ship. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
230
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 04:32:00 -
[179] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: But the setting is what it is all about. It is the difference between someone being upset that their car caught fire and someone being upset that their pretend spaceship blew up.
That however is not for you to decide. One's emotional attachment to their pixel space ship is not yours to determine. You can only determine your emotional attachment to your pixel space ship.
Then I guess I'm a heartless *****. In the video game. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Basileus Volkan
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
115
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 04:36:00 -
[180] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: But the setting is what it is all about. It is the difference between someone being upset that their car caught fire and someone being upset that their pretend spaceship blew up.
That however is not for you to decide. One's emotional attachment to their pixel space ship is not yours to determine. You can only determine your emotional attachment to your pixel space ship.
So essentially it boils down to "I don't have problems, everyone else does!" or in this context "It's not my fault I'm attached to space pixels, everyone else is just a sociopath!"
That is a... very American mindset. |
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
693
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 04:43:00 -
[181] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Then I guess I'm a heartless *****. In the video game.
LOL ok, don't be upset when someone says it I suppose. It is the same emotional attachment is it not? Setting and context are not relevant, it is the emotion and motive that matter.
They don't care to acknowledge your distiction between your in-game and out-game personas, any more than you care to akcnowledge their lack of distiction. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
693
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 04:47:00 -
[182] - Quote
Basileus Volkan wrote: So essentially it boils down to "I don't have problems, everyone else does!" or in this context "It's not my fault I'm attached to space pixels, everyone else is just a sociopath!"
That is a... very American mindset.
Call it whatever you want. Doesn't change the fact that you are making a judgement about someone else's motives, and then being upset when they do the same in return. If that makes you feel bad, then perhaps you should reevaluate your motives or not worry about it.
Guilt is your choice, not their's.
P.S. The golden rule has been around a lot longer than the USA, and expressed in just about every religion, so um, good luck with the pop-culture stuff. |
Basileus Volkan
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
115
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 04:56:00 -
[183] - Quote
The Golden Rule is not the be-all-end-all of moral philosophy. It's not even a very good rule in real life since it more often than not leads to situations where either choice violates the Rule.
It also never took into account the possibilities of a virtual world where antisocial behavior is practically encouraged.
You seem to be adamant on dismissing the personal responsibility of the offended party. They don't exist in a vacuum, the universe around them does not know about their emotional state or investment into the game and even then hardly anyone would care. EvE "society" if you can call it that is inherently clannish in nature which means "Screw everyone else who doesn't belong to my circle of friends!" Everyone playing the game should well be aware of that fact so being upset about getting scammed or blown up is silly at best and irrational at worst. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
693
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 05:03:00 -
[184] - Quote
Basileus Volkan wrote: You seem to be adamant on dismissing the personal responsibility of the offended party. They don't exist in a vacuum, the universe around them does not know about their emotional state or investment into the game and even then hardly anyone would care. EvE "society" if you can call it that is inherently clannish in nature which means "Screw everyone else who doesn't belong to my circle of friends!" Everyone playing the game should well be aware of that fact so being upset about getting scammed or blown up is silly at best and irrational at worst.
Again, you are trying to determine what other's should think, or how they feel and attempting to justify it with moral relativisim. Yet you seem to get upset when they appear, from your perspective, to be doing it to you. Who's fault is that?
You are saying "Screw everyone that doesn't want to play or think about Eve the same way I do." Your position is just as irrational as theirs, by your own definition. Karma is a *****, ain't it? |
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
819
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 05:18:00 -
[185] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:I like these sub-posts on your blog. Quote:Various comments from the blog post. Some really good stuff there, to bad it contradicts everything that you said. They're called comments, not sub-posts, and I did not write them.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
819
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 05:22:00 -
[186] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:That however is not for you to decide. One's emotional attachment to their pixel space ship is not yours to determine. You can only determine your emotional attachment to your pixel space ship. How are we to know when someone is silly/off-kilter enough to have put an emotional investment in their pretend spaceship? Should we first ask them before blowing up their Hulk? Or should be assume that everyone is emotionally immature? The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
693
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 05:31:00 -
[187] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote: How are we to know when someone is silly/off-kilter enough to have put an emotional investment in their pretend spaceship? Should we first ask them before blowing up their Hulk? Or should be assume that everyone is emotionally immature?
If you get upset by them calling you names, because to you they are "emotionally immature", then are you any more emotionally mature than they?
As for you asking them or whatever, that's up to you. If you do not care about their feelings, why would you ask in the first place? |
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
819
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 05:38:00 -
[188] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:As for you asking them or whatever, that's up to you. If you do not care about their feelings, why would you ask in the first place? Their feelings are misplaced. So I could give a f**k about their "feelings."
You seem to think you have the winning argument here. Placing a strong emotional investment into pixels is not healthy behaviour. The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
695
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 05:53:00 -
[189] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Their feelings are misplaced. So I could give a f**k about their "feelings."
You seem to think you have the winning argument here. Placing a strong emotional investment into pixels is not healthy behavior.
Well if you don't give a fck about their feelings, why should they give a fck about yours and not call you a psycho?
Placing strong emotional attachment on your in-game activities is not a healthy behavior. |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
130
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 06:09:00 -
[190] - Quote
Knowing these things are in EVE doesn't mean I am somehow duty bound to do them or even accept them. I don't participate in scams, refuse to cheat people in a concerted effort and advocate against them when on the forums or confronted on such things in game. I actually do more for the scammers and cheats than I do for the 'honest' player in being that way. If it just became second nature to be a full fledged ******* in EVE with no integrity, what would set such a person apart from the other 399,999 people playing?
"I'm a scamming thief in EVE Online" Yea, so what, get in line behind the other half a million scamming thieves in EVE online. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-_HeVNYOk
Save Derpy! |
|
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
819
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 06:11:00 -
[191] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Their feelings are misplaced. So I could give a f**k about their "feelings."
You seem to think you have the winning argument here. Placing a strong emotional investment into pixels is not healthy behavior. Well if you don't give a fck about their feelings, why should they give a fck about yours and not call you a psycho? Placing strong emotional attachment on your in-game activities is not a healthy behavior. You got kicked off your debate team, didn't you? Parroting is not an effective arguing technique, especially when you're trying to compare apples or oranges.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
695
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 06:21:00 -
[192] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:You got kicked off your debate team, didn't you? Parroting is not an effective arguing technique, especially when you're trying to compare apples or oranges.
Having to resort to personal attacks eh? I'm sure you learned all about that on your debate team, yes?
It is you who are trying to make apples and oranges. You are placing an emotional attachment on your in-game activites and being upset when someone calls you names. As if they should care about your feelings. Yet you your self have stated you care nothing about theirs. If you don't see the contradiction there, that isn't my problem, it is yours.
"Moooomy, someone called me names cause I blew up his space ship, make him stop!"
Yeah, good luck with that. |
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
819
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 06:27:00 -
[193] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:It is you who are trying to make apples and oranges. You are placing an emotional attachment on your in-game activites and being upset when someone calls you names. As if they should care about your feelings. Yet you your self have stated you care nothing about theirs. If you don't see the contradiction there, that isn't my problem, it is yours. So what is your actual stance here. You're just trolling, as far as I can tell.
Do you believe that anyone who ganks Hulks is a sociopath or not?
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
695
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 06:38:00 -
[194] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:So what is your actual stance here. You're just trolling, as far as I can tell.
Do you believe that anyone who ganks Hulks is a sociopath or not?
Trolling? Hrm, I'm enjoying a moral debate. If my exposing your contradictory position makes me a troll, then you owe me three goats.
As for your question, I don't. Some one else might however. If you can't handle that, too bad, get over it, just like they had to get over loosing a ship. |
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
819
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 06:47:00 -
[195] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Having to resort to personal attacks eh? Did I hurt your feelings? I, of course, care about your feelings and did not realize you'd take my ad hominem attack to heart.
Adunh Slavy wrote:... loosing a ship. This isn't a debate about "feelings" though. It's about labels and over-generalizing. I make no comments about feelings in the OP. The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
695
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 06:49:00 -
[196] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Did I hurt your feelings? I, of course, care about your feelings and did not realize you'd take my ad hominem attack to heart.
Aww, that's cute.
Poetic Stanziel wrote: This isn't a debate about "feelings" though. It's about labels and over-generalizing. I make no comments about feelings in the OP.
So? |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 07:25:00 -
[197] - Quote
Basileus Volkan wrote:The Golden Rule is not the be-all-end-all of moral philosophy. It's not even a very good rule in real life since it more often than not leads to situations where either choice violates the Rule.
It also never took into account the possibilities of a virtual world where antisocial behavior is practically encouraged.
You seem to be adamant on dismissing the personal responsibility of the offended party. They don't exist in a vacuum, the universe around them does not know about their emotional state or investment into the game and even then hardly anyone would care. EvE "society" if you can call it that is inherently clannish in nature which means "Screw everyone else who doesn't belong to my circle of friends!" Everyone playing the game should well be aware of that fact so being upset about getting scammed or blown up is silly at best and irrational at worst.
dont think im taking morality lessons from a Goon
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:As for you asking them or whatever, that's up to you. If you do not care about their feelings, why would you ask in the first place? Their feelings are misplaced. So I could give a f**k about their "feelings." You seem to think you have the winning argument here. Placing a strong emotional investment into pixels is not healthy behaviour.
Your contradictions are more telling about your unbalanced mental state than anything else.
Adunh Slavy wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:So what is your actual stance here. You're just trolling, as far as I can tell.
Do you believe that anyone who ganks Hulks is a sociopath or not?
Trolling? Hrm, I'm enjoying a moral debate. If my exposing your contradictory position makes me a troll, then you owe me three goats. As for your question, I don't. Some one else might however. If you can't handle that, too bad, get over it, just like they had to get over loosing a ship.
Dont you know? Unless you agree you are a troll.
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
820
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 07:33:00 -
[198] - Quote
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:Dont think im taking morality lessons from a Goon. Why? Do you believe that their in-game actions affect their out-of-game morality? That their in-game actions are a reflection of how they go about their daily lives?
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
820
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 07:35:00 -
[199] - Quote
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:Your contradictions are more telling about your unbalanced mental state than anything else. What would those contradictions be?
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 07:53:00 -
[200] - Quote
It wouldn't really come as a surprise if you guys (Sigurd, Adunh to name a few) regularly gets prescription painkillers with the amount of butthurt you display in each and single one of your posts.
No wonder you are so mad... it's like a thorn in your ass that you can't quite reach and yank out. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3428
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 08:31:00 -
[201] - Quote
Christ almighty, 10 pages of posts and all because people are mad about losing a damb pixel spaceship to another player in a game about blowing up pixel spaceships.
Yes it is.
Look, this goes through cycles. First (I say "first"; I actually mean "when I first encountered it") it was because the other guy was an immature teenager. Later, the fashion became to say it was because they were sexual abuse victims working out their problems. A while after that, they were "basement dwellers" who only managed to get the better of you because they played 20 hours a day. Now it's because they're sociopaths who are mentally ill and incapable of caring about others.
I'm not sure what the next excuse for losing an untanked ship while you were AFK will be, although I am sure it will be something that makes the other guy a bad, sad or mentally deficient person. It's an Olympic year and a lot of Americans play EVE, so maybe we'll see the narrative shift from "sociopath" to "performance enchancing drugs"?
Just. *******. Accept. That. You. Lost.
Oh but of course, that will never be an option Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Francisco Bizzaro
39
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 09:26:00 -
[202] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I'm not sure what the next excuse for losing an untanked ship while you were AFK will be, although I am sure it will be something that makes the other guy a bad, sad or mentally deficient person. It's an Olympic year and a lot of Americans play EVE, so maybe we'll see the narrative shift from "sociopath" to "performance enchancing drugs"?
Just. *******. Accept. That. You. Lost. Is it possible that we are witnessing Eve's first incident of 'roid rage?
Anyhow, well said.
|
Jumfat Kohlah
Dark Sacred Night
2
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 09:35:00 -
[203] - Quote
[quote=Poetic Stanziel This cannot be described as anything other than real psychopathic behaviour. These two individuals targeted another player with the express goal of convincing that person to spend hard-earned money, money that person likely would not have spent on GTCs otherwise
[u] so that they could profit from his real-world loss.[/u
Not too mention that they revelled in their target's losses afterwards, especially the fact that they convinced the player to spend real money on their eventual scam
That is reprehensible behaviour. It is psychopathic behaviour. Nothing virtual about it.[/quote
Good read btw - but just like to pick up on on point ....^^ that one....
the scammers profited from the deal in-game so they did not affect his real life - if what you wrote in your post is what you believe in. Did they then change the modules gained into rl money and run off cackling with delight into the night? Because reasoning states that this is the only way they could profit for the loss in real life Of course they had to affect the person in-game to effect the purchase - and the pressure felt by the recipient was "real" enough to do something about it ...which in this case was spend rl money to produce the required result. His choice..
Sorry - your premise is flawed
Whether virtual or real - the psychological factors that drive people to do what they want to do are inherent in the person. This is what they would do and possibly do do in real life. The difference is sociological guidelines as laid down by our parents/communities and legal consequences stop them doing it. My example is Chribba - how has he managed to gain the respect and trust of the community if he wasn't like that in RL
Consider that there are also people in other parts of the world that consider that there is nothing wrong with scamming and causing distress. They are "wired" that way and have not the same moral compass as we do
Doesn't matter whether it is virtual or not - they would still do it. And anonymity is a bonus because they will not have consequences
You are what you are, whether anonymous or not.
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
696
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:03:00 -
[204] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:It wouldn't really come as a surprise if you guys (Sigurd, Adunh to name a few) regularly gets prescription painkillers with the amount of butthurt you display in each and single one of your posts.
No wonder you are so mad... it's like a thorn in your ass that you can't quite reach and yank out.
/snort
If anyone appears mad it is you and your childish display of insults and other bull ****. So here, have some of what appears to be reasonable discussion, **** off rl psycho! LOL. Go club some baby seals. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
696
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:06:00 -
[205] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Christ almighty, 10 pages of posts and all because people are mad about losing a damb pixel spaceship to another player in a game about blowing up pixel spaceships.
The funny thing here is the, I assume gankers, are whining about being called names. |
Xpaulusx
V I R I I Ineluctable.
40
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:23:00 -
[206] - Quote
Ok Kids, Imagine this, imagine you are in a magic spaceship, you fly around shooting everyone but when they shoot back nothing happens to your ship, you say to yourself "man this is great". But after a few days something seems to be missing, its not fun anymore, soon afterwards you either quit Eve or suicide the ship. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:34:00 -
[207] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote:It wouldn't really come as a surprise if you guys (Sigurd, Adunh to name a few) regularly gets prescription painkillers with the amount of butthurt you display in each and single one of your posts.
No wonder you are so mad... it's like a thorn in your ass that you can't quite reach and yank out. /snort If anyone appears mad it is you and your childish display of insults and other bull ****. So here, have some of what appears to be reasonable discussion, **** off rl psycho! LOL. Go club some baby seals.
There, there, no need to get upset and angry. Ask your doctor to prescribe you some ritalin next time you pick up your prescription for painkillers, that should help you calm down.
Why club innocent animals when I can club the likes of you and have you go batshit insane on a forum?
I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
696
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:38:00 -
[208] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:There, there, no need to get upset and angry. Ask your doctor to prescribe you some ritalin next time you pick up your prescription for painkillers, that should help you calm down.
Why club innocent animals when I can club the likes of you and have you go batshit insane on a forum?
Haha, yeah whatever you say. You have to start in with the insults and when thrown back in your face, you have nothing but the same tired crap. Grow up little boy. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:45:00 -
[209] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote:There, there, no need to get upset and angry. Ask your doctor to prescribe you some ritalin next time you pick up your prescription for painkillers, that should help you calm down.
Why club innocent animals when I can club the likes of you and have you go batshit insane on a forum?
Haha, yeah whatever you say. You have to start in with the insults and when thrown back in your face, you have nothing but the same tired crap. Grow up little boy.
The irony is strong here; you want me to grow up when you don't contribute much either than with poor generalizing with a insult thrown in here and there for good measure. Do your doctor a favor and jump off a bridge, but ask someone to film it so they can put it on youtube. I'll make sure to hit 'like'. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
696
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:46:00 -
[210] - Quote
Alpheias wrote: The irony is strong here; you want me to grow up when you don't contribute much either than with poor generalizing with a insult thrown in here and there for good measure. Do your doctor a favor and jump off a bridge, but ask someone to film it so they can put it on youtube. I'll make sure to hit 'like'.
So you are encouraging suicide? We know how well that worked out for the last person. |
|
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:47:00 -
[211] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote: The irony is strong here; you want me to grow up when you don't contribute much either than with poor generalizing with a insult thrown in here and there for good measure. Do your doctor a favor and jump off a bridge, but ask someone to film it so they can put it on youtube. I'll make sure to hit 'like'.
So you are encouraging suicide? We know how well that worked out for the last person.
I encourage people to do whatever they want with their life, they earned that right at birth. That includes suicide. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
696
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:50:00 -
[212] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote: The irony is strong here; you want me to grow up when you don't contribute much either than with poor generalizing with a insult thrown in here and there for good measure. Do your doctor a favor and jump off a bridge, but ask someone to film it so they can put it on youtube. I'll make sure to hit 'like'.
So you are encouraging suicide? We know how well that worked out for the last person. I encourage people to do whatever they want with their life, they earned that right at birth. That includes suicide.
Keep digging that hole. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:53:00 -
[213] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote: The irony is strong here; you want me to grow up when you don't contribute much either than with poor generalizing with a insult thrown in here and there for good measure. Do your doctor a favor and jump off a bridge, but ask someone to film it so they can put it on youtube. I'll make sure to hit 'like'.
So you are encouraging suicide? We know how well that worked out for the last person. I encourage people to do whatever they want with their life, they earned that right at birth. That includes suicide. Keep digging that hole.
Are you going to jump into it, dear? I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
696
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:55:00 -
[214] - Quote
Alpheias wrote: Are you going to jump into it, dear?
You're boring. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:56:00 -
[215] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote: Are you going to jump into it, dear?
You're boring.
That's what she said. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
696
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 11:58:00 -
[216] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:That's what she said.
Have any more trite nuggets or is this about the best you can do? |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 12:00:00 -
[217] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote:That's what she said. Have any more trite nuggets or is this about the best you can do?
No. But I can give you a big hug, you sound like you need at least one.
And I can go by a toy store on the way and pick out the biggest teddy bear for you so you can cry in its embrace. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
696
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 12:02:00 -
[218] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote:That's what she said. Have any more trite nuggets or is this about the best you can do? No. But I can give you a big hug, you sound like you need at least one. And I can go by a toy store on the way and pick out the biggest teddy bear for you so you can cry in its embrace.
No thanks, I don't get near skanks. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 12:05:00 -
[219] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote:That's what she said. Have any more trite nuggets or is this about the best you can do? No. But I can give you a big hug, you sound like you need at least one. And I can go by a toy store on the way and pick out the biggest teddy bear for you so you can cry in its embrace. No thanks, I don't get near skanks.
So you prefer the intimate company of men? I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
697
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 12:07:00 -
[220] - Quote
Alpheias wrote: So you prefer the intimate company of men?
Go look it up |
|
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 12:09:00 -
[221] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote: So you prefer the intimate company of men?
Go look it up
Intimate company of men? I completely respect your preference mate, but I hope you can respect my preference in women. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
697
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 12:11:00 -
[222] - Quote
Alpheias wrote: Intimate company of men? I completely respect your preference mate, but I hope you can respect my preference in women.
So you're clueless and lazy, thanks for the proof. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 12:13:00 -
[223] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote: Intimate company of men? I completely respect your preference mate, but I hope you can respect my preference in women.
So you're clueless and lazy, thanks for the proof.
And you are crying, as always. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
697
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 12:15:00 -
[224] - Quote
Alpheias wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote: Intimate company of men? I completely respect your preference mate, but I hope you can respect my preference in women.
So you're clueless and lazy, thanks for the proof. And you are crying, as always.
You're the one with the need to ***** and moan about me pointing out the contradiction in the op. Deal with it. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 12:21:00 -
[225] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote: Intimate company of men? I completely respect your preference mate, but I hope you can respect my preference in women.
So you're clueless and lazy, thanks for the proof. And you are crying, as always. You're the one with the need to ***** and moan about me pointing out the contradiction in the op. Deal with it.
Nah. I am just here to troll you, brah. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
697
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 12:23:00 -
[226] - Quote
Alpheias wrote: Nah. I am just here to troll you, brah.
No ****. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3433
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 14:44:00 -
[227] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Malcanis wrote:Christ almighty, 10 pages of posts and all because people are mad about losing a damb pixel spaceship to another player in a game about blowing up pixel spaceships.
The funny thing here is the, I assume gankers, are whining about being called names.
Must be because they're teenage childabused shut-in basement dweller scoipaths mad because their dealer won't answer his pager. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
661
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 14:45:00 -
[228] - Quote
Are the sociopaths still denying they exist? Ho hum... I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Voith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 15:50:00 -
[229] - Quote
Being an ******* != Sociopath/Psycopath |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 16:26:00 -
[230] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote: So you prefer the intimate company of men?
Go look it up
Wonder how long itll take for this thread to get locked given its entirely OT now that you guys are having your little pissing match
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
|
Chokichi Ozuwara
Royal One Piece Corporation Deadly Unknown
115
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 17:54:00 -
[231] - Quote
Back to the topic, trying to explain away sociopathic behavior as somehow not being real because it is done through a digital medium is really no different than saying that making death threats to people over the phone in a funny voice and a made up name is also not harassment or antisocial behavior.
If you act like an ahole in Eve, it probably means you're too cowardly to act like an ahole in real life. Eve is a safe place where you can be an ahole anonymously and avoid the social consequences of being a jerk. Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
348
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 18:51:00 -
[232] - Quote
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:Back to the topic, trying to explain away sociopathic behavior as somehow not being real because it is done through a digital medium is really no different than saying that making death threats to people over the phone in a funny voice and a made up name is also not harassment or antisocial behavior.
If you act like an ahole in Eve, it probably means you're too cowardly to act like an ahole in real life. Eve is a safe place where you can be an ahole anonymously and avoid the social consequences of being a jerk. But do you also admit that Eve is a place where nice people can act like complete psychopaths and *not* be jerks IRL?
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 19:00:00 -
[233] - Quote
If this is true and they were just a scam:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99455&find=unread
woult this be an example of that behavior or is this more metagame?
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
822
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 19:12:00 -
[234] - Quote
I would consider the entire EVE is Easy situation to be outside of the game. It was a business opportunity involving real money that involved EVE Online as a component. So whoever is at fault in that situation (I don't care enough to figure it out) would be an actual jerk. ;)
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
282
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 19:35:00 -
[235] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:But do you also admit that Eve is a place where nice people can act like complete psychopaths and *not* be jerks IRL? I think you could play the role of a ruthless pirate, as in kill everything on sight, and not be a jerk or ill, for that matter, in real life.
But if you enjoy other people's misery or if your intent is to "collect tears" because it makes you feel better, even if using a game as a tool to realize this, I have no doubts whatsoever that you are an ill individual in real life. To me it is all about intent.
You can deny it all you want. If you enjoy "tears" or making others' gaming experience miserable this is no longer an in-game personality that you can attribute to your "character". Your enjoyment is yours, as in the real you. In other words, if ruining a real person's day because it gives the real you real pleasure, even if it is through a game, then you are psychologically ill.
But Serene Repose said it best some few pages back, this will not make sense to a sociopath. Attempting to explain a sociopath why it is he's a sociopath is like attempting to tell a rock it's a rock. That part of the brain simply will not register.
|
Dr Silkworth
Two Geezers in Space
41
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 19:38:00 -
[236] - Quote
Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Alpheias wrote: So you prefer the intimate company of men?
Go look it up Wonder how long itll take for this thread to get locked given its entirely OT now that you guys are having your little pissing match
BUT, Repressed sexuality or homosexulaity may be a key part of sociopathy. Repressed might be key in that statement. I have gay friends and they are not sociopaths but I know some sociopaths that are still kinda in the closet.
Star Wars now allows you to be gay. It would be interesting to look at behaviors based on homosexuality and sexuality.
I have a couple female toons. When I picked them, I imagined they would be more spylike. They are kinda sneaky but in a social sort of way. They both are cloaky, both help newcomers, one does ewar and the other science. I do not like them as much as this toon but they are part of me. They have allowed me to explore sides of me that aren't "manly" :) They don't have the meanstreak/amorrality of the spy though cause that just isn't me.
I wonder what the sociopaths and psychopaths other characters are like??? |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
139
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 19:43:00 -
[237] - Quote
Jumfat Kohlah wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote: This cannot be described as anything other than real psychopathic behaviour. These two individuals targeted another player with the express goal of convincing that person to spend hard-earned money, money that person likely would not have spent on GTCs otherwise
so that they could profit from his real-world loss.
Not too mention that they revelled in their target's losses afterwards, especially the fact that they convinced the player to spend real money on their eventual scam
That is reprehensible behaviour. It is psychopathic behaviour. Nothing virtual about it.
Good read btw - but just like to pick up on on point ....^^ that one.... the scammers profited from the deal in-game so they did not affect his real life - if what you wrote in your post is what you believe in. Did they then change the modules gained into rl money and run off cackling with delight into the night? Because reasoning states that this is the only way they could profit from the loss in real life Of course they had to affect the person in-game to effect the purchase - and the pressure felt by the recipient was "real" enough to do something about it ...which in this case was spend rl money to produce the required result. His choice.. Sorry - your premise is flawed Whether virtual or real - the psychological factors that drive people to do what they want to do are inherent in the person. This is what they would do and possibly do do in real life. The difference is sociological guidelines as laid down by our parents/communities and legal consequences stop them doing it. My example is Chribba - how has he managed to gain the respect and trust of the community if he wasn't like that in RL Consider that there are also people in other parts of the world that consider that there is nothing wrong with scamming and causing distress. They are "wired" that way and have not the same moral compass as we do Doesn't matter whether it is virtual or not - they would still do it. And anonymity is a bonus because they will not have consequences You are what you are, whether anonymous or not.
Actually, presuming this is all relatively true and some players convinced some poor guy to spend a lot of real cash on PLEX then maneuvered him into a position where they could steal, blow-up, or otherwise cost him this investment in game, your premise is flawed.
Time is one thing, and it does count for something, but intentionally maneuvering an individual into a position where you can cost them assets in real life, whether you profit from it in real life or not, is something else.
Frankly, I can't see a whole lot of people falling for it, but lets assume that these guys told him to spend $400 on PLEX and to transfer it directly to ISK in game, then invest in a POS and some Cap ships so they could set up shop in some Nullsec system and rent off an Alliance.
Following that, and after he had done such and entrusted them with the security of these assets and the corp as well as paying rent to this Null allaince, they voted him out of corp, after podkilling him and sending him back to empire then blockading the system to prevent his re-entry, and took all the stuff for themselves and continued with progress minus this chap who payed for it.
This doesn't make them sociopaths or psychopaths, but what does it really say about them? The minute they intended to convince him to spend real life money on in-game assets so they could steal them off him they crossed the line as far as I'm concerned.
If they hadn't done that and he had spent that money and they had followed through and done the same thing with the same results it would be entirely different. There is motive and there is intent, and they did intentionally get him to spend real life money-in this scenario-with the motive to steal the in-game assets resulting from that expense.
Where do you draw the line?
tl;dr: At any rate, it is a flawed premise primarily for the fact that you stated "...scammers profited from the deal in-game so they did not affect his real life," when in fact they did and that was their intent right from the start. Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
232
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 19:45:00 -
[238] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:But do you also admit that Eve is a place where nice people can act like complete psychopaths and *not* be jerks IRL? I think you could play the role of a ruthless pirate, as in kill everything on sight, and not be a jerk or ill, for that matter, in real life. But if you enjoy other people's misery or if your intent is to "collect tears" because it makes you feel better, even if using a game as a tool to realize this, I have no doubts whatsoever that you are an ill individual in real life. To me it is all about intent. You can deny it all you want. If you enjoy "tears" or making others' gaming experience miserable this is no longer an in-game personality that you can attribute to your "character". Your enjoyment is yours, as in the real you. In other words, if ruining a real person's day because it gives the real you real pleasure, even if it is through a game, then you are psychologically ill. But Serene Repose said it best some few pages back, this will not make sense to a sociopath. Attempting to explain a sociopath why it is he's a sociopath is like attempting to tell a rock it's a rock. That part of the brain simply will not register.
It's the same go around as someone saying "I'm not crazy" makes them look more crazy. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
348
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 20:34:00 -
[239] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:But do you also admit that Eve is a place where nice people can act like complete psychopaths and *not* be jerks IRL? I think you could play the role of a ruthless pirate, as in kill everything on sight, and not be a jerk or ill, for that matter, in real life. But if you enjoy other people's misery or if your intent is to "collect tears" because it makes you feel better, even if using a game as a tool to realize this, I have no doubts whatsoever that you are an ill individual in real life. To me it is all about intent. You can deny it all you want. If you enjoy "tears" or making others' gaming experience miserable this is no longer an in-game personality that you can attribute to your "character". Your enjoyment is yours, as in the real you. In other words, if ruining a real person's day because it gives the real you real pleasure, even if it is through a game, then you are psychologically ill. But Serene Repose said it best some few pages back, this will not make sense to a sociopath. Attempting to explain a sociopath why it is he's a sociopath is like attempting to tell a rock it's a rock. That part of the brain simply will not register. You missed *my* point completely. (Well, mostly).
I'm not defending (nor at any point did I) those who get a kick out of others suffering, but there seems to be some conflation with "being a jerk in game (ass, sociopath, griefer, scumbag or whatever word you want to use) and that same person being a so called "evil guy" in real life. And Vice versa...
Example: I know an in game person who volunteers for charity IRL.
In game he is a pirate that some people have even heard of. However, IRL, this pirate actually has the time (and inclination) to go to disaster sites all over the world with a charity, and assist after disasters. In game, you don't want to meet him, out of game he's quite nice. (I'm not naming him, because he hasn't made it a practice of identifying himself in-game and out-of-game that way).
Will you (or anyone?) admit that while there may be "IRL" psycho/socio/head cases who enjoy others suffering, purely for the suffering, and derive personal pleasure from it (irl from in-game actions), there are also people who (for want of a better word) role-play griefers, scumbags, spies and all around general ass-hats in-game, but can also be nice guys (and gals) you wouldn't mind sitting down to a beer and a chat with?
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University Minmatar Republic
283
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 21:27:00 -
[240] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:You missed *my* point completely. (Well, mostly).
I'm not defending (nor at any point did I) those who get a kick out of others suffering, but there seems to be some conflation with "being a jerk in game (ass, sociopath, griefer, scumbag or whatever word you want to use) and that same person being a so called "evil guy" in real life. And Vice versa...
Example: I know an in game person who volunteers for charity IRL.
In game he is a pirate that some people have even heard of. However, IRL, this pirate actually has the time (and inclination) to go to disaster sites all over the world with a charity, and assist after disasters. In game, you don't want to meet him, out of game he's quite nice. (I'm not naming him, because he hasn't made it a practice of identifying himself in-game and out-of-game that way).
Will you (or anyone?) admit that while there may be "IRL" psycho/socio/head cases who enjoy others suffering, purely for the suffering, and derive personal pleasure from it (irl from in-game actions), there are also people who (for want of a better word) role-play griefers, scumbags, spies and all around general ass-hats in-game, but can also be nice guys (and gals) you wouldn't mind sitting down to a beer and a chat with? See, that's the thing. I don't think you could play a "griefer" or a jerk. If you're "playing" it is because you are. I don't buy for a minute that your character is a grief player and that you yourself don't enjoy his grief play. You could tell me that you are a pastor who saves women and children from the streets and would never do this "in real life" while enjoying being a grief player 'in-game'. There's no such thing as being a weekend or part-time jerk/sociopath. And again, using a game as a tool to inflict real life pain is not an excuse.
By the way, I've noticed that just as in the case of your friend, many of the people who enjoy grief play tend to claim they are saints in real life who help elderly cross the streets, turn in lost wallets, and feed the needy. I'm not saying everyone is lying, but I find it interesting that 'in-game' sociopaths tend to claim they are the opposite of what they play. Case in point, The Mittani's owner. Actions have proven otherwise.
I'll just add that PVP play is not grief play or being a jerk. The problem, as I see it, is that PVP play, because of the way it's been set up, attracts many ill-intent types and then disguise their actions under the "it's just a game" rhetoric.
So to answer your question more clearly:
You cannot play a grief-player or a jerk. You either are or you aren't. Why? Because if your intentions are to make real people angry and miserable, then it is no longer just a pretent for you. You're actually looking to provoke real emotions from the person behind the avatar and not the avatar himself. The same goes for asshats.
Being a spy does not necessarily make you a grief player, sociopath, or whatever (as long as you keep the context completely within the game).
I'll also add that even though I have concerns for other legitimate PVP activities such as gate camping, suicide ganking, etc, not all players that engage in these are sociopaths. BUT, it is a great way for these types to get their kicks and giggles and I would expect many to be involved in these activities. |
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Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
253
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 21:49:00 -
[241] - Quote
I think both sides of this argument are partly right.
There are people that aim to grief the person behind the character (maybe they see that as part of the game), on the other hand there are some that genuinely play the game without intending to grief the person behind the character.
I'm actually useless at playing bad characters, liked the idea of it (not with the aim of griefing) but my bad characters either end up being trashed or end up good. Although I have more success with merc/assassin characters where you accept a contract then just carry out the contract, with this type I don't seem to have a moral issue crop up when it comes to decisions.
So in short it's a game but some people do bring their RL baggage into it. |
Deviant X
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
21
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 22:05:00 -
[242] - Quote
I'm surprised this thread is still going.
I won't launch into a sermon about embracing your bad-side so you can create real drama. I won't ramble about how saying it's only a game waters your ill-intentions down and gives the impression you feel your mark is stupid.
I liken it to grudge sex. We've all done it and enjoyed it ... Heck, some even may feel a little guilty afterwards. But deep down inside, you KNOW you'd do it again.
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Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
823
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 22:16:00 -
[243] - Quote
Late last year, during Ice Interdiction, I built out a Brutix according to the Goonswarm Guide to Highsec Ganking and killed me a Mackinaw.
Why did I do it? Destroy a defenseless mining ship? It wasn't to grief the player. It was to point out to the player that there is no location in New Eden that is 100% safe. Nor should there be. Risk and reward. The risk of destruction is lower if you mine in highsec versus lowsec/nullsec/w-space, but that risk is not zero.
After I destroyed the person's Mackinaw, I didn't convo them. I didn't send them an evemail. I didn't need to know their reaction to the event.
I plan to participate in Hulkageddon. My security status will likely drop well below -5. There's appropriate give and take there. I get to prove the point that New Eden is a dangerous place, everywhere, and in doing so in a safer area of space, I get punished with having to build my security status back up afterwards (which will take a good amount of time and effort.)
For every Hulk and Mackninaw I destroy, I will not seek out the player reaction. I'm not interested in harvesting player tears, I'm interested in abject lessons in what EVE Online is all about.
Does that make me a bad person? The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
253
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 22:28:00 -
[244] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Late last year, during Ice Interdiction, I built out a Brutix according to the Goonswarm Guide to Highsec Ganking and killed me a Mackinaw.
Why did I do it? Destroy a defenseless mining ship? It wasn't to grief the player. It was to point out to the player that there is no location in New Eden that is 100% safe. Nor should there be. Risk and reward. The risk of destruction is lower if you mine in highsec versus lowsec/nullsec/w-space, but that risk is not zero.
After I destroyed the person's Mackinaw, I didn't convo them. I didn't send them an evemail. I didn't need to know their reaction to the event.
I plan to participate in Hulkageddon. My security status will likely drop well below -5. There's appropriate give and take there. I get to prove the point that New Eden is a dangerous place, everywhere, and in doing so in a safer area of space, I get punished with having to build my security status back up afterwards (which will take a good amount of time and effort.)
For every Hulk and Mackninaw I destroy, I will not seek out the player reaction. I'm not interested in harvesting player tears, I'm interested in abject lessons in what EVE Online is all about.
Does that make me a bad person?
That's you, but some players do actively intend to grief the player not just the character. What percentage of players who knows but it only takes a small percentage to get noticed.
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Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
823
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 22:34:00 -
[245] - Quote
oops. deleted. double post. The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
140
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 22:42:00 -
[246] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Late last year, during Ice Interdiction, I built out a Brutix according to the Goonswarm Guide to Highsec Ganking and killed me a Mackinaw.
Why did I do it? Destroy a defenseless mining ship? It wasn't to grief the player. It was to point out to the player that there is no location in New Eden that is 100% safe. Nor should there be. Risk and reward. The risk of destruction is lower if you mine in highsec versus lowsec/nullsec/w-space, but that risk is not zero.
After I destroyed the person's Mackinaw, I didn't convo them. I didn't send them an evemail. I didn't need to know their reaction to the event.
I plan to participate in Hulkageddon. My security status will likely drop well below -5. There's appropriate give and take there. I get to prove the point that New Eden is a dangerous place, everywhere. By performing this service in a safer area of space, I get punished with having to build my security status back up afterwards (which will take a good amount of time and effort.)
For every Hulk and Mackninaw I destroy, I will not seek out the player reaction. I'm not interested in harvesting player tears, I'm interested in abject lessons in what EVE Online is all about.
Does that make me a bad person?
No, but it might make you a sociopath. Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
Chokichi Ozuwara
Royal One Piece Corporation Deadly Unknown
116
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 02:05:00 -
[247] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:But do you also admit that Eve is a place where nice people can act like complete psychopaths and *not* be jerks IRL? Eve is IRL. It's just communication digitally. It's technologically no different than using your mobile phone.
Just because people role play online, doesn't mean they aren't in control of their behavior, and if they choose to treat people poorly, they are jerks.
This distinction that because people hide behind usernames they have somehow created an alternate reality is really stupid and from what I can tell, a lazy way for people to excuse their crappy behavior as not being "real" or mattering.
If it didn't matter, they wouldn't do it. If it didn't hurt someone, or cost them a ship it took them time or money to earn, people wouldn't do it. Even the fool upthread who tries to justify it as proving that hisec isn't safe, obviously believes her actions mattered or she wouldn't have intentionally done it.
The delusion that is popular here is that somehow when you play Eve, that's not you, but another being with a totally different psychological state you have no accountability for. Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round. |
Bane Necran
351
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 02:19:00 -
[248] - Quote
Sasha Azala wrote:I'm actually useless at playing bad characters
Same situation here. When i made this guy way back in '05 i had plans of being the ultimate evil space pirate. But since then i've learned a bit more about myself, and discovered i just don't have that in me. Can't even pretend.
I've also tried to do 'evil' playthroughs of various games like Mass Effect and found my heart is just not in it. Never get very far. That brittle rage, the bitter rubble, take your time and bring the trouble. |
Basileus Volkan
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
117
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 04:34:00 -
[249] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:Dont think im taking morality lessons from a Goon. Why? Do you believe that their in-game actions affect their out-of-game morality? That their in-game actions are a reflection of how they go about their daily lives?
Confirming we all like to steal candy from puppies and kick little kids (down the stairs, preferably). |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
606
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 06:51:00 -
[250] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:Sasha Azala wrote:I'm actually useless at playing bad characters Same situation here. When i made this guy way back in '05 i had plans of being the ultimate evil space pirate. But since then i've learned a bit more about myself, and discovered i just don't have that in me. Can't even pretend. I've also tried to do 'evil' playthroughs of various games like Mass Effect and found my heart is just not in it. Never get very far.
That is really interesting that you are unable to be the crook no matter what game you play. I just don't have that "moral inhibitor" when I play a game and I have no second thoughts on blowing someone up, taking their stuff and mock them in local or go for the evil choices in RPGs as there are rarely, if ever, any truly "gray" choices.
Basileus Volkan wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:Dont think im taking morality lessons from a Goon. Why? Do you believe that their in-game actions affect their out-of-game morality? That their in-game actions are a reflection of how they go about their daily lives? Confirming we all like to steal candy from puppies and kick little kids (down the stairs, preferably).
Beside nicking candy from small kids and push them down stairs and kicking puppies, I shot birds with a BB gun and when I was done, I poisoned the guppies. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
3441
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 06:52:00 -
[251] - Quote
Deviant X wrote:I'm surprised this thread is still going.
Why?
It started several thousand years ago. Why should this be the year it stops? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 09:35:00 -
[252] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:, I'm interested in abject lessons in what EVE Online is all about.
Does that make me a bad person?
So, you haven't yet worked out what Eve is about? And you write so intelligently...
I think I can explain why you did what you did - simply - adrenaline and boredom.
Alex (mittani) said that he was getting bored and so he joined in a ganking run and found it invigorating. I think you have the same problem - in fact I think all people that have played this game for over 3 years come to the realisation that there is a remarkable lack of purpose in this game, usually after they have tried it all (or said they have)
But to put this post back on topic - imo the people that grief in this game - and griefing to me is harvesting "tears" - are like that in RL. No doubt about that. These are the people that are sadistic and selfish - or should I say self centred and get pleasure from making others miserable. However, here is my take on this.
I believe they CANNOT help themselves. They are a victim of genes and environment coupled with repression and resentment which have rewired their brain into receiving dopamine (pleasure signals) instead of guilt. As I believe that homosexuality has a chemical base - so those that are sadistic and masochistic are wired so.
So, just another speculative post - but I have a feeling that I am right... I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 09:40:00 -
[253] - Quote
And to answer your question
Do YOU think you are a bad person? I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Dr Silkworth
Two Geezers in Space
44
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 09:56:00 -
[254] - Quote
The logical consequence of your position is that there is no hope, that these are at base level defective people. They will not change, they cannot change and even if they wish to change their scripting and coding will keep pulling them into the rut like an old fashion vinyl lp that once its starts skipping can never stop.
If you move away from this position, they can give themselves the permission to change if the time and conditions become appropriate for them. When you rub this in peoples faces, even though it seems true, you condemn them to force themselves to stay that way.
Its weird, Its kinda Eastern stuff, I only learned it myself a couple years ago though I spent a lifetime wondering why people didn't treat me like this when I was an A-hole. |
Zulran Hans
Refuge of Hope Lemniskate
1
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Posted - 2012.04.23 10:31:00 -
[255] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:
The OP "seems" to make sense if one applies a mass-media acquired understanding of the elements he/she chooses to address.
The big HOWEVER to all this is, fortunately (or no), nobody's exiting reality to boot this game. Everyone is as ensconced in this time/space frame as they were before they clicked that icon. Furthermore, if anyone believes they ARE in another reality (virtual, or no) when they enter the game, there's a diagnosis for that as well.
Absolving themselves from the consequences of their acts because people choose to imagine that nothing "real" is happening anyway is merely a form of self-delusion, and anyone who feels that's a necessary step to take before engaging in immoral or unethical behavior at least has the virtue of realizing it is a step from civil behavior into uncivil behavior.
Quite literally, it is a step from cerebral cortex mitigated behavior into reptilian stem behavior, or a giant leap into the animalistic past.
The OP seems to confuse psychopathy with anti-social personality disorder. Though the two are related in many ways, the psychopathy is expressed in many different disorders. ASPD is expressed in many different ways. It used to be called sociopathy, and was associated strictly with violent criminals that had no remorse for their activities.
However, the science has come to accept this behavior isn't limited to serial killers. It's found in the wide spectrum of societal positions as defined by activities, from the board room to the construction site if you will...and yes, in EVE, as well.
Part of an excellent comment by Serene Repose ( see post #22)
It really got me thinking about Empathy.
If I scam or destroy defenseless miners, then claim it's just pixels, nothing "real" is happening, I'm actually deluding myself.
Because my fun, my emotion of doing those acts is "real" and valuable to me, otherwise I wouldn't have done them in the first place.
That means the emotion of the victims is just as "real" and as valuable as mine.
I might try to justify it what I do.
I can call the victim "stupid", "noob," or "carebear" who doesn't play the game as good as me. I can say I'm teaching him a lesson. I can construct whatever creative reasons for why he deserves to be scammed or destroyed.
Those might even be true. But this isn't about him, is it.. It's about me losing my empathy.
The amazing thing about EVE is that it is an open-ended universe, we can make it as cruel or as honorable a universe as we like.
I can get ISK without scamming. I can experience a more challenging PvP in tournaments or wars, against combat-ready opponents, ones that actually can and willing to fight back.
There's one more thing I can try to tell myself, "I'm not like this in real life.. It's not me.."
Yes, my decisions in EVE may be virtual, but the decision-making process is not. There is something in me that accept those decisions..
I guess, at least in that sense, EVE is real after all.. :)
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Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
672
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 11:05:00 -
[256] - Quote
And, Zulran breaks the code. (Thanks for the good word, btw.)
The psychological reaction you're after by your actions in the "virtual" world is real. The reason you're taking these actions is to achieve this reaction. Those reasons are real, too, if only to you. You are causing the actions to occur using your hands, eyes, brain...all real (on most people.) Claiming pixels on a screen suddenly makes it all "not real" is either untrue, or delusional, depending on what you really really know inside as opposed to what you feel compelled to assert in this forum, or conversationally, or to yourself as you do these things.
To quote Bob Marley, "You can't run away from yourself."
Zulran's point about "empathy" is the key to this issue. To empathize requires using the cerebral cortex. Those who use the cerebral cortex have formed neural pathways (unbeknownst to them) which route firing synapses through it. Once these are established it takes a gargantuan effort to reroute them. When situations arise which allow for sympathy or empathy, your brain takes off firing synapses up these pathways whether you want it to or not. You can't "not" do it.
Sociopaths, or people with ASPD, don't have neural pathways routed through the cerebral cortex. Their impulse/action synapse firing route is largely contained within the reptilian stem at the base of the brain. They cannot "not" do that by exercise of will, wishing, or anything else. Creating neural pathways that travel into the cerebral cortex as a solution to ASPD is theoretical at present. A handful of people are scrapping for funding for moving it to the experimental phase.
This is why it's pointless to point-out to someone with ASPD that they're exhibiting signs of ASPD. It has no meaning to them. It's also why people who don't have it have a very difficult time understanding how those who do can behave the way they do.
You can't know what you've never experienced. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
54
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 12:32:00 -
[257] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote: To empathize requires using the cerebral cortex. Those who use the cerebral cortex have formed neural pathways (unbeknownst to them) which route firing synapses through it. .
Love to learn Serene, so I am going to request "citation needed" on this fact
I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Basileus Volkan
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
118
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 13:05:00 -
[258] - Quote
Feeling empathy is usually reserved for face-to-face interactions, not the pretty much completely detached environment of EvE Online. Are there lines that should not be crossed, even within the game? Probably. Scamming a faceless mark or blowing up a random miner however are well below that line. In fact, where do you draw the line in the first place? When do interactions inside the game become morally wrong outside of it? Every time someone might feel hurt? Then the game becomes impossible to play.
I'd go as far as to say that empathy, as applied to a random person within the game, is probably more Weltschmerz than anything else. |
Poetic Stanziel
The Fancy Hats Corporation
825
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 13:09:00 -
[259] - Quote
Klandi wrote:And to answer your question
Do YOU think you are a bad person? Not at all.
The STAIN Travel Bookmark Collection - 451 Bookmarks |
Ghoest
336
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 13:13:00 -
[260] - Quote
EVE is a pyscopath incubator.
There is nothing psychopathic about flying around looking for fights or even to steal stuff in EVE.
But the phrase "my ship runs on carebear tears" is totally psychopathic and its not a roleplay thing. Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1182
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 13:23:00 -
[261] - Quote
Off topic and spam posts removed. Please remember to be on topic and polite, thank you.
Moved from EVE General Discussion.
CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
676
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 18:11:00 -
[262] - Quote
Basileus Volkan wrote:Feeling empathy is usually reserved for face-to-face interactions, not the pretty much completely detached environment of EvE Online. Are there lines that should not be crossed, even within the game? Probably. Scamming a faceless mark or blowing up a random miner however are well below that line. In fact, where do you draw the line in the first place? When do interactions inside the game become morally wrong outside of it? Every time someone might feel hurt? Then the game becomes impossible to play.
I'd go as far as to say that empathy, as applied to a random person within the game, is probably more Weltschmerz than anything else. Au contraire mon ami. Such is not the case. Being face to face with someone is not solely a trigger for empathetic or sympathetic reaction. All that is required is knowing a person is there. I'd hasten to add "complete detachment" is a discipline few achieve, and those who do achieve it do so with great rigor and discipline which take years to master.
Objectivizing people, turning people from "people" to "objects" is precisely what the psychopath does. It is a hallmark of the serial killer. We don't have the privilege of drawing any lines, as this isn't a matter of conjecture or opinion. Weltschmerz - physical reality can never satisfy the demands of the mind - is a philosophical opinion. There are disciplines centuries old which bring into balance the mind and body - the mind demanding anything being anathema. And, of course, "morality" can best be defined as divine law.
Where you draw a line in behavior has more to do with what kind of "world" do you want to live in? To obtain a civilized world, setting at bay "might is right" for its destructive barbarity, mankind has come to agree upon certain things and to accept them as truth. "Thou shalt not kill" is in some form present in every civilization and religion, for instance. The concept of private property is as well. "This is mine," is also a concept some civilizations do not contain, such as the Bushmen of the Kalahari.
It's safe to say people playing EVE pretty much have an internal attachment to, and cultural priority with Western Civilization. This, in large part (like it or not) sprang from the Judeo-Christian ethos. Someone who's aware of ideas like, "love your enemies, love your neighbor as you do yourself, and do good to those who would spitefully use you" can be expected to recoil at some of the practices in EVE.
Not to put too fine a point on it - no disrespect intended - the Icelandic crowd who brought us this game in all likelihood can trace their ancestery and heritage back to the Vikings of old - quite a different cultural tradition than the English, or French. Yet, don't be surprised if people recoil at "might is right." Whether anyone admits it or not, that's the basis for the behavior in question. Whether an empathetic ethos is more amenable to us as a species (or not) is a relatively new idea in the history of our species.
It's easy to be against war if you've burned your continent down around your ears three or four times. Being for peace because it seems like a good idea on its own? It's said that's "saintly" thinking. This culture despises saints. Why wouldn't EVE be the way it is, then, considering the culture. I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Easley Thames
The Maverick Navy Against ALL Authorities
29
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Posted - 2012.04.24 00:25:00 -
[263] - Quote
You are no more a psychopath for playing one in Eve than you are a miracle-worker for playing a Cleric in a fantasy MMORPG.
The people who try to categorize other players in these terms are very similar to those politicians that blame real-life violence on video games. They simply don't understand the concept of having an online persona.
In my experience, some of the most gentle people I know in real life are comparatively cruel in-game, and the opposite is also true.
I think people seek out what they don't have in their lives when they play games. It's not a reflection of what they are in real life, so much as it's a reflection of what they are curious about or find exciting.
I am of the opinion that there is a distance between the individual and the persona we perform in-game. We can be sad about our in-game misfortunes, but when we begin to react disproportionately to the loss of virtual assets, then the fault lies within ourselves - not in the person who has merely played the game against us. |
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2012.04.24 00:47:00 -
[264] - Quote
GM Homonoia wrote: How would you like to live in a living hell? That said, as long as it remains in The Magic Circle we are very lenient in what we allow, as all of you are well aware. This does not give you the right to be anti-social just because you enjoy tormenting others.
GM Homonoia wrote:DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies. I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ ToS. What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent. Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done. And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.
Funny that
and lol @ throwing the topic in the dungeon
Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game |
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
706
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Posted - 2012.04.24 16:50:00 -
[265] - Quote
Easley Thames wrote:You are no more a psychopath for playing one in Eve than you are a miracle-worker for playing a Cleric in a fantasy MMORPG.
The people who try to categorize other players in these terms are very similar to those politicians that blame real-life violence on video games. They simply don't understand the concept of having an online persona.
In my experience, some of the most gentle people I know in real life are comparatively cruel in-game, and the opposite is also true.
I think people seek out what they don't have in their lives when they play games. It's not a reflection of what they are in real life, so much as it's a reflection of what they are curious about or find exciting.
I am of the opinion that there is a distance between the individual and the persona we perform in-game. We can be sad about our in-game misfortunes, but when we begin to react disproportionately to the loss of virtual assets, then the fault lies within ourselves - not in the person who has merely played the game against us. You're missing the point. Nobody's saying "because you play EVE you're a sociopath." They're saying they see that kind of behavior in other players, and are remarking about it. Seeing "normal" people play EVE would be...unremarkable, as it were. However, the claim you can separate yourself from who or what you are in real life just because you've logged onto a video game is somewhat in dispute. Disproportionate is an arguable values term. What is one thing to you may not be to others. I never get sad if I lose something in EVE. I don't get mad. I do, however, try to get EVEn. I don't see my time and effort as being virtual any more than I see my pawns and queen in chess to be insignificant. Also, nobody's fault finding as far as I can tell. It's more an exploration of the phenomena of you being you. What is this "you"? Just because you occupy space and process oxygen doesn't mean you are also able to answer that question. Not being able to answer it could be the purpose in life we're all arguing whether exists or not...lord knows mankind has spent a few thousand years pursuing the answer. "We" come along and all of a sudden, it's a dumb question? I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Orthaal Vornessen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.06.01 06:20:00 -
[266] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:Why is it the smartest people in the world always agree with me? Funny that,no?
The OP "seems" to make sense if one applies a mass-media acquired understanding of the elements he/she chooses to address. The big HOWEVER to all this is, fortunately (or no), nobody's exitting reality to boot this game. Everyone is as ensconced in this time/space frame as they were before they clicked that icon. Furthermore, if anyone believes they ARE in another reality (virtual, or no) when they enter the game, there's a diagnosis for that as well.
Absolving themselves from the consequences of their acts because people choose to imagine that nothing "real" is happening anyway is merely a form of self-delusion, and anyone who feels that's a necessary step to take before engaging in immoral or unethical behavior at least has the virtue of realizing it is a step from civil behavior into uncivil behavior. Quite literally, it is a step from cerebral cortex mitigated behavior into reptilian stem behavior, or a giant leap into the animalistic past.
The OP seems to confuse psychopathy with anti-social personality disorder. Though the two are related in many ways, the psychopathy is expressed in many different disorders. ASPD is expressed in many different ways. It used to be called sociopathy, and was associated strictly with violent criminals that had no remorse for their activities. However, the science has come to accept this behavior isn't limited to serial killers. It's found in the wide spectrum of societal positions as defined by activities, from the board room to the construction site if you will...and yes, in EVE, as well.
The truest marker of this behavior is does the activity engaged in generate activity in the frontal lobe of the brain, or can it be completed within the reptilian stem: The frontal lobe being where the "rights and wrongs" of behavior are mititgated. The reptilian stem being bereft of such considerations. The existence of remorse or feelings of "guilt" are the generally accepted markers.
One might pretend to attempt to imitate a psychopath, or ASPD, but it's difficult to be assured that being capable of such behavior on any level, under any pretense isn't symptomatic of possessing these disorders. Having a group of peers insist this is all mistaken thinking, or having the individual in question insisting it was all just pretense, or virtual, is inconsequential at best. No one possessing any of this array of disorders is likely to admit this as fact, either through ignorance, pure unawareness, or flat denial to further the aims these disorders demand.
ASPD is believed to prevail within Western society (from 60 upwards to 80% depending on what study you read) so it's not only highly unlikely, but it's rather naive as well to believe EVE doesn't have its share on a percentage basis. As the prevailing behavior exhibited by EVE players - or even the behavior celebrated by a large portion of EVE players, is precisely the type of behavior diagnosed as part of this spectrum of disorders, it would be unusual (or odd) if ASPD were not present in a density reflective of the general population.
Psychopathy, on the other hand, has a smaller spectrum insofar as is understood at present. However, it wouldn't be surprising if EVE had its fair share of those, as well. Be it ASPD or Psychopathy, it's futile to point out and castigate people for this behavior, as they are incapable of realizing or understanding the point you'd be trying to make. One must either accept its presence and live with it, or move on in hopes of finding somewhere they aren't present. Given the pervasive presence of ASPD especially, it's highly unlikely such a place exists, and if you think you've found one, you may be deluding yourself....or wishful thinking.
That makes so much sense! Genius!
magna *** laude stuff here |
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