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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
daisy dook
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Posted - 2009.01.27 12:45:00 -
[61]
Edited by: daisy dook on 27/01/2009 12:45:34
Originally by: Vrikshaka
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Ione Hunt
EVE is a risk vs reward game.
So nerf all sniper fits?.
Sorry pal but long range fits will always be more survivable than short range.
Ouch. That argument hurts my soul. For this to be correct, the damage of a sniper fit BS would need to = the damage of a close range one. Which it simply isn't.
A sniper fit BS is safer, yes. But at the price of dealing a lot less damage. The Falcon however, when operating at sniper range, does so with no penalty whatsoever to the strength of it's main weapon. And no, I'm not talking about the uber sniper range of a specifically range fitted/rigged Falcon here, but the already considerable range of a full strength fitted Falcon.
So the native targeting range of a Falcon is > 200km?
I suspect you have to lose jamming strength (in the sense jammers replaces by sensor boosters) to be able to target at that distance.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2009.01.27 12:48:00 -
[62]
Why do all Gallente ships get huge dronebays?
Why are Minnie ships the fastest out there?
Why do Amarr make awesome tank/gank ships?
Why is Caldari EWAR the best?
Recognize the pattern, then we can have a sensible discussion about the Falcon, and ECM in general, 'cause only true whiners think that nerfing the Falcon will solve anything. They'll be writing nerf Blackbird/Kitsune/Scorpin/Rook threads in no time. |
Bravard
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Posted - 2009.01.27 12:50:00 -
[63]
No |
Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.27 12:52:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Pohbis Why do all Gallente ships get huge dronebays?
Why are Minnie ships the fastest out there?
Why do Amarr make awesome tank/gank ships?
Why is Caldari EWAR the best?
Recognize the pattern, then we can have a sensible discussion about the Falcon, and ECM in general, 'cause only true whiners think that nerfing the Falcon will solve anything. They'll be writing nerf Blackbird/Kitsune/Scorpin/Rook threads in no time.
QFT. Finally someone with a big picture. |
ry ry
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Posted - 2009.01.27 12:59:00 -
[65]
there is a weird correlation between people saying the falcon is fine and caldari characters.
crazy. |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:03:00 -
[66]
Originally by: ry ry there is a weird correlation between people saying the falcon is fine and caldari characters.
crazy.
there is a weird correlation between your statement and the fact that Caldari are the most common race in EVE. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:04:00 -
[67]
Originally by: ry ry there is a weird correlation between people saying the falcon is fine and caldari characters.
crazy.
I thought ppl only flew falcons on alts?.....they must be posting with them i suppose......
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Ione Hunt
0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:11:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Ione Hunt on 27/01/2009 13:17:03 Edited by: Ione Hunt on 27/01/2009 13:11:57
Originally by: ry ry there is a weird correlation between people saying the falcon is fine and caldari characters.
crazy.
This.
No one wants to see "their" race nerfed in any way. Vaga pilots didn't want speed nerfed, no matter how overpowered it was. Drake pilots didn't want to see their insane passive tanks nerfed...and the list goes on. This is why you get a lot more "waaaaaaaah, bohoooo, my ship is fine" posts instead of constructive tips on how to improve the imbalance.
It's also the reason why you get stupid arguments like "a sniper BS can target more than 1 ship too", when in reality using only 2 guns per target (which you have to do if you want to target the same amount of people a Falcon can) is next to useless.
Anyone who insists that Falcons are currently totally balanced with the other recons isn't objective. Just ask any FC what he'd prefer in a gang, a Falcon or a Huginn, and you realize how overpowered those ships are.
Can a Curse/Pilgrim affect the same amount of targets as effectively as the Falcon? No. Can an Arazu/Lachesis do it? No. Can a Rapier/Huginn do it? No.
See the trend? ECM is useful against ALL ships, all the other forms of EW aren't, or suffer from a useful counter. The "chance based" argument is weak because the current counter against jamming are ineffective, therefor increasing jam chances to a level that just isn't in line with other forms of EW. Add to this the range advantage.
Yes you can't really solo with the Falcon, but that's a Caldari trade-off because of their tanking. Just like Minmatar generally have weaker damage than Gallente, and Gallente have a smaller range. _______________
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Vrikshaka
0ff-Peak Esoteric Cutthroats
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:19:00 -
[69]
How about we look at this from another perspective.
The two Caldari recons are the Rook and the Falcon. Given their slot layout AND bonuses, they have the exact same jamming capability. But the Falcon, on top of being able to use it's main weapon JUST as well as the Rook (yes, the Rook gets 30km more targeting range and 25% faster locking - but these will not, in practice, change enough to be taken into account here), gets the ability to warp cloaked. An ability which gives it a whole other world of tactical advantage (i.e. isn't visible on scanner), the very second it enters a system.
So, the Rook forfeits the cloak for nothing more than slightly better locking and range, a slightly more durable hull....and a 5% bonus to kinetic missile damage + two more highslots available for missile launchers which, let's be honest, doesn't make any damned difference in the real world (unless you're extremely ballsy/stupid/obsessed trying to prove the use of the Rook as a solo ship).
With this in mind, here are three questions for those who consider the Falcon to be balanced as it is:
1. Is the balance between the Falcon and the Rook as it should be?
2. If 'no' to question one, do you think the balance between these two ships should be adjusted?
3. If 'yes' to question two (heaven help you if you answer 'yes' to the first question but 'no' to the second ), do you honestly think that this adjustment should consist in making the Rook even stronger?
If 'no' to the last question, the Falcon simply needs to be made weaker. |
Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:20:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Colonel Xaven on 27/01/2009 13:22:30
Originally by: Ione Hunt
Originally by: ry ry there is a weird correlation between people saying the falcon is fine and caldari characters.
crazy.
This.
No one wants to see "their" race nerfed in any way. Vaga pilots didn't want speed nerfed, no matter how overpowered it was. Drake pilots didn't want to see their insane passive tanks nerfed...and the list goes on. This is why you get a lot more "waaaaaaaah, bohoooo, my ship is fine" posts instead of constructive tips on how to improve the imbalance.
- Caldari characters only have Caldari skills and fly Falcons.
- Minmatar characters only have Minmatar skills and fly Vagabonds.
- Gallente characters only have Gallente skills and fly Blasterthrons.
- Amarr characters only have Amarr skills and fly Apocs.
That's why everyone want his race / ship to be totally equal to all other races / ships to make EVE even more exciting.
True story! |
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Algey
The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:22:00 -
[71]
Try sitting a curse at 45km from a small group of turret battleships using tracking disruptors on them, and neuts on anything closing. Quite capable of affecting as many if not more battleship targets than a falcon.
The reason falcons are so good is that people do not fit for range. If you do they last about two seconds, but you are weakened against close range gangs. I could argue that you could use your own close range falcons to remove that problem, but we all know that a close range falcon dies instantly, so that would be a very silly suggestion now wouldn't it. |
Antimony Noske
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:30:00 -
[72]
I made a post in Assembly Hall about this very topic. [Well, sort of.]
Perhaps you would like to read it, and offer support/suggestions?
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Vrikshaka
0ff-Peak Esoteric Cutthroats
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:31:00 -
[73]
Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 27/01/2009 12:38:24
Originally by: Vrikshaka
Ouch. That argument hurts my soul. For this to be correct, the damage of a sniper fit BS would need to = the damage of a close range one. Which it simply isn't.
Why should it a sniper fit sacrifices either active or passive tank to hit that far out, the close range BS does not.
Originally by: Vrikshaka A sniper fit BS is safer, yes. But at the price of dealing a lot less damage.
And having a lot less tank.
Umm...yes, both those are true. But now you're argumenting against yourself.
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Vrikshaka The Falcon however, when operating at sniper range, does so with no penalty whatsoever to the strength of it's main weapon.
A falcon can miss a jam at long or short range and as such is not fully predictable like a damp/TD ship, that is why it has range instead of a guaranteed effect.
Also falcons are not born at 200km away from everything as the pilots need to make bookmarks and anybody can do that, as well as the fact that in a roaming gang they need to jump into camps and either cloak warp and hope no bubble is up for the return trip, or get melted as soon as they engage at close range.
Just cos a falcon has the ability to jam at range does not mean that it can get to that range in time to be of any use in the fight.
I wasn't talking about 200km (SB + range rigs) range. The Falcon's max jamming strength range is already too great, and thus too safe. |
Ione Hunt
0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:32:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Ione Hunt on 27/01/2009 13:35:33
Originally by: Algey Try sitting a curse at 45km from a small group ...
45km...thanks for proving my point. Also, a neut doesn't completely remove a ship from battle like ECM does. Tracking disruptors are useless against missile boats, ECM isn't.
Also, if you look at it from a practical standpoint, not just from the standpoint of an EFT warrior discussing jamming strength, ranges, and so on...you would realize that the best argument for a nerf is that 99.999% of FCs would prefer a Falcon in their gang over any other recon.
Find me one top-class FC who would rather have a Huginn for their standard gangs and we can discuss further. _______________
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:33:00 -
[75]
Edited by: lecrotta on 27/01/2009 13:36:30
Originally by: Ione Hunt
It's also the reason why you get stupid arguments like "a sniper BS can target more than 1 ship too", when in reality using only 2 guns per target (which you have to do if you want to target the same amount of people a Falcon can) is next to useless.
It is not useless its a perfectly valid and highly effective tactic against RR gangs to confuse the calling as they do not know who to rep, just cos your tactical knowledge is sorely lacking is no excuse for a nerf.
Originally by: Ione Hunt If I ask one of our FCs whether I should bring a Falcon or one of the other recons, and they'll send me mining Veld in empire for asking stupid questions.
Tell ppl your going solo roaming in a falcon and you will get the same lulz, falcons are gang ships plain and simple.
Originally by: Ione Hunt Can a Curse/Pilgrim affect the same amount of targets as effectively as the Falcon? No. Can an Arazu/Lachesis do it? No. Can a Rapier/Huginn do it? No.
Nice list bud, if i was comparing recons for solo work i would include all of those apart from the falcon, maybe it needs a boost as it must suck in blinkered world.....
Originally by: Ione Hunt The "chance based" argument is weak because the current counter against jamming are ineffective, therefor increasing jam chances to a level that just isn't in line with other forms of EW.
It is a perfectly valid argument the problem is that nobody comes screaming onto the forums full of emo raging about how a falcon missed a jam on them and they popped his buddy.
Originally by: Ione Hunt Yes you can't really solo with the Falcon, but that's a Caldari trade-off because of their tanking.
So jammers are low or high slot modules now?..cos last i looked they took up the same slots as caldari tank does and also the lows on a falcon are needed to boost jammers to the point they become ok as far as effect is concerned.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:35:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Ione Hunt
Tracking disruptors are useless against missile boats, ECM isn't.
Then do not fight missile ships in a recon fitted to fight gunnery ships ffs.
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Ione Hunt
0utbreak
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:37:00 -
[77]
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Ione Hunt
Tracking disruptors are useless against missile boats, ECM isn't.
Then do not fight missile ships in a recon fitted to fight gunnery ships ffs.
I wouldn't...but that doesn't change the fact that one form of ECM works against all ships, while the other doesn't |
Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:40:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Ione Hunt
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Ione Hunt
Tracking disruptors are useless against missile boats, ECM isn't.
Then do not fight missile ships in a recon fitted to fight gunnery ships ffs.
I wouldn't...but that doesn't change the fact that one form of ECM works against all ships, while the other doesn't
Umm, TP's work on every ship. Webs do, Neuts do, dampners do and so on. It's not pars pro toto, dude. |
Neena Valdi
Geddonites
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:40:00 -
[79]
Originally by: lecrotta
It can be effective against a few ships
As tackler - perhaps. As ewar - barely enough for 1 non sensor boosted BS.
Originally by: lecrotta
depending on type and what buddies the arazu has. And that applies to the falcon as well cos of sig str and what racials he has as the arazus damps are fully effective on all races.
Proper falcon has racial jammers for all races and 1-2 multispectral. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:41:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Ione Hunt
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Ione Hunt
Tracking disruptors are useless against missile boats, ECM isn't.
Then do not fight missile ships in a recon fitted to fight gunnery ships ffs.
I wouldn't...but that doesn't change the fact that one form of ECM works against all ships.
So do damps, and trying to justify a nerf by pointing out what other systems cannot do is stupid.......falcons cannot solo they need a buff..see what i did there?. |
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Neena Valdi
Geddonites
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:42:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Colonel Xaven
Originally by: Ione Hunt
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Ione Hunt
Tracking disruptors are useless against missile boats, ECM isn't.
Then do not fight missile ships in a recon fitted to fight gunnery ships ffs.
I wouldn't...but that doesn't change the fact that one form of ECM works against all ships, while the other doesn't
Umm, TP's work on every ship. Webs do, Neuts do, dampners do and so on. It's not pars pro toto, dude.
He's talking about racial jammers. |
Neena Valdi
Geddonites
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:43:00 -
[82]
Originally by: lecrotta
So do damps, and trying to justify a nerf by pointing out what other systems cannot do is stupid.......falcons cannot solo they need a buff..see what i did there?.
So give them the buff to solo and adjust their ability to take out of the game 4-5 ships at once. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:44:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Neena Valdi
As tackler - perhaps. As ewar - barely enough for 1 non sensor boosted BS.
Rubbish, it can damp at least 2 non SB BS to a point they cannot hit it if the pilot knows what he is doing.
Originally by: Neena Valdi
Proper falcon has racial jammers for all races and 1-2 multispectral.
Every damp you fit on a arazu is a fully 100% effective non chance based multispec. |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:49:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Neena Valdi
Originally by: lecrotta
So do damps, and trying to justify a nerf by pointing out what other systems cannot do is stupid.......falcons cannot solo they need a buff..see what i did there?.
So give them the buff to solo and adjust their ability to take out of the game 4-5 ships at once.
The ability to do that is sheer blind luck from a ship dedicated to jamming and being setup with 6 mids all to do exactly that. And it can only do it effectively if it is at long range and the gang it is facing has no long range ships or eccm fitted.
That is not OP that is what happens if you go jumping into a camp with a crappy setup gang.
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ry ry
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:53:00 -
[85]
Edited by: ry ry on 27/01/2009 13:56:06
Originally by: lecrotta Every damp you fit on a arazu is a fully 100% effective non chance based multispec.
you keep mentioning that it's chance based, do you have the formula for calculating chance of jamming to hand?
i was under the impression that chance%=(ecm strength/sensor strength)*100 which would mean that, for eample, jamming a minmatar interceptor with a racial wasn't chance based at all?
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:56:00 -
[86]
The biggest joke is the fact that some gangs are willing to bring a entire ship/player/account with them to make them more effective as a unit in pvp.
But others who wanna fly their uber tank/gank setups are unwilling to adjust their fit slightly to combat it and instead cry for a nerf expecting ccp to bring these ships into range of their fits/guns instead.
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ry ry
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Posted - 2009.01.27 13:58:00 -
[87]
Edited by: ry ry on 27/01/2009 13:59:01
so basically everybody should have a falcon with them at all times, otherwise they're not doing it right?
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.27 14:01:00 -
[88]
Originally by: ry ry
Originally by: lecrotta Every damp you fit on a arazu is a fully 100% effective non chance based multispec.
you keep mentioning that it's chance based, do you have the formula for calculating chance of jamming to hand?
i was under the impression that chance%=(ecm strength/sensor strength)*100 which would mean that, for example, jamming a minmatar interceptor with a racial wasn't chance based at all?
A maxed falcon pilot gets around 14-15 str max on racials, around 9-10 with multispecs, so any ship with less sig str than than can be perma jammed.
And very few ships do, even a crappy t1 cruiser with a single eccm reduces the chance of getting jammed by a maxed out falcon fitted with a racial racial by 50%.....
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.27 14:01:00 -
[89]
Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 27/01/2009 13:59:01
so basically everybody should have a falcon with them at all times, otherwise they're not doing it right?
Wrong. Every gang should keep the possibility of ewar in mind and set up accordingly!
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
Algey
The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.01.27 14:03:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Ione Hunt Edited by: Ione Hunt on 27/01/2009 13:35:33
Originally by: Algey Try sitting a curse at 45km from a small group ...
45km...thanks for proving my point. Also, a neut doesn't completely remove a ship from battle like ECM does. Tracking disruptors are useless against missile boats, ECM isn't.
The neuts and tracking disruptors in that case take far more ships out of the fight than the falcon would. Yes it is case based, because 4 battleship snipers, or 4 domis with ECCM would also ignore the falcon.
Originally by: Ione Hunt
Also, if you look at it from a practical standpoint, not just from the standpoint of an EFT warrior discussing jamming strength, ranges, and so on...you would realize that the best argument for a nerf is that 99.999% of FCs would prefer a Falcon in their gang over any other recon.
Find me one top-class FC who would rather have a Huginn for their standard gangs and we can discuss further.
Again case based. If you're going into a fleet sniper fest then your falcons are just going to die. How about a small roaming gang where there are only 4 pilots, oh oh falcon I hear you say, however you're not breaking a drake tank before a providence response fleet comes over and slaughters you with two falcons and a couple of vagas, you need ships with some dps.
I agree the falcon is considered the best recon, however that is more because the other recons are not as good as they should be with their EW (lol target painters and gimp webs).
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