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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.01.24 23:23:00 -
[1]
I have been thinking about a new business idea and whether it would be possible.
The idea is to set up a corporation for industrialists and especially designed at newer players wishing to get into construction. Anyone would be able to join.
The corp. would have no taxes but would have a monthly membership fee of 20M ISK, payable in advance.
The membership would give access to corporation BPOÆs that would be locked down, but everyone had access to. This would allow newer players to get into manufacturing instead of purchasing expensive IPOÆs
Investment and Returns
Shares would be created in the corporation, and sold to investors with a twist. The corporation does NOT want starting capital. It wants BPOÆs (probably T1).
Any investor providing BPOÆs to the corporation would receive shares equal to the value of the BPOÆs. For ease of calculation NPC prices would be used. A shell company would be set up to handle shares and dividends.
At the end of each month all the monthly membership fees would be paid out in dividends.
Security
The main membership corporation would have 3 directors (shareholders) who lockdown the BPOÆs. This way no-one can run off with them. To unlock BPOÆs would require a vote and 2 of the directors would have to vote yes.
I would be a director/shareholder in the main corp., and I would also like 2 others to be primary directors.
Ideally the more BPOÆs the corp. gets the more attractive it is to potential members. Any BPOÆs are good.
If there are multiple BPOÆs several offices would be set up near major trade and mission hubs.
I would also like to drop the corp. into a research alliance, to provide that alliance more potential customers and also to provide security against wardecs.
Comments
I would probably inject about 2B in BPOÆs into the corporation including some BC and BS BPOÆs, along with smaller ship and ammo BPOÆs
I have no idea if this type of IPO is possible.
What I would like is feedback: Is the idea possible? Would people be interested in joining a corporation with fees as opposed to taxes? Would people be interested in joining a corporation with access to100Æs of BPOÆs, which they can use? What type of BPOÆs would people be willing to inject (T1)? Restrict to ship/ship module/ammo? Who would like to invest in such a scheme?
Very interested in hearing from new players who want to get more into manufacturing, and also from potential investors on what type of BPOÆs they may invest with.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2009.01.24 23:29:00 -
[2]
What you describe isn't really a cooperative by definition, it's more of a leasing service.
If you would like to discuss specifics of a cooperative I am very knowledgeable and experienced with the worker varieties. I've worked at one (RL) for the past 5 years and have been on its Board of Directors. |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.01.24 23:33:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Dr Slurm What you describe isn't really a cooperative by definition, it's more of a leasing service.
If you would like to discuss specifics of a cooperative I am very knowledgeable and experienced with the worker varieties. I've worked at one (RL) for the past 5 years and have been on its Board of Directors.
OK it has more of a leasing service model. The idea is two fold:
1. To provide players with access to a large pool of BPO's 2. Provide the investors with a return.
Comments/suggestions/criticisms actively welcomed |
Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.01.24 23:37:00 -
[4]
I like this idea, and I'd be willing to invest some of my underutilized BPOs should you decide to go forward.
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Atima
Minmatar House of Marbles
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Posted - 2009.01.24 23:45:00 -
[5]
I also struggle with the amount production slots, i would be interested in providing BPOs and purchasing the products at a markup.
I will also offer myself as a director for holding the BPOs if you feel it is appropriate. |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.01.24 23:49:00 -
[6]
I speak early, but Im pretty certain my current CEO would go along with the idea of our entire T1 library getting at least some use. We have upwards of 3 or 4 prints of almost every single print in game.
I like the idea and have mulled it around in my head in the past... evemail in game cosmo so we can trade email addys and talk more. |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2009.01.24 23:49:00 -
[7]
Well if your intent is to help new players a leasing service would be the opposite of that. Leasing services work by over extending the resources available to workers to make a profit off of them. The lease here is 20m monthly fee in return the player gets access to your resources, the BPO's. So as your player base (leasers) expands more people have access to the limited number of resources. This in turn stretches the resources while maximizing your profits. The right thing to do would be to keep reinvesting the profit into the corporation to keep expanding the resources. Unfortunately greed usually overcomes this.
A truly cooperative model would take investment from new players so they would own part of the company. This investment could also be work that they provide. As their equity builds they technically own a larger chunk of the cooperative. Then it is up to Board of Directors to retire equity by paying off the first people to invest.
My cooperative for example has a 15 year equity roll over plan.
There are many kinds of cooperatives though. What I've described is a worker cooperative. Another example would be a consumer cooperative where you gather together your resources to purchase things in bulk like minerals for instance. The basic premise though is people band together to form a democratically controlled group for their own benefit.
It's better then Quafe! Off-topic. Please don't point out semantic errors of the moderators - Mitnal |
Estel Arador
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.01.24 23:51:00 -
[8]
This is an interesting idea which I've been thinking of myself (I would consider it the next step after my jumpclone service).
The major hurdle I could think of is that jobs run from corp BPOs have to have their input/output from corp hangars, which would mean that there's a risk of corp members stealing from eachother. Another potential problem would be people cancelling eachother's manufacturing jobs (not sure if that's actually possible - that's what I get for always going at it alone ).
If these hurdles can be overcome and the business does get launched, I'd be willing to throw most of my BPOs in the mix (~1.5B NPC value).
FREE! jumpclone service û 146 locations! |
Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.01.24 23:53:00 -
[9]
I'm interested, in fact I would be willing to make research service free (if that means more share).
I got one question, how would you determine who is the director? Even I would like to be a director.
10% for Returning Customers |
ingenting
20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.24 23:53:00 -
[10]
I like the idea.
Tho the fee of 20M ISK/month might be a bit high for newer pilots, imo. _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu *BAAOOM*... Told you, newb." |
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.01.24 23:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Estel Arador
The major hurdle I could think of is that jobs run from corp BPOs have to have their input/output from corp hangars, which would mean that there's a risk of corp members stealing from eachother. Another potential problem would be people cancelling eachother's manufacturing jobs (not sure if that's actually possible - that's what I get for always going at it alone ).
Yes it is possible and a potential hurdle.
I will say this, for the time period that we had a free for all at my current corp population peak we only ever had an issue with 2 print sets, that being BS and BC. So we ended up getting an extra 2 each which solved the issue. |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.01.24 23:59:00 -
[12]
This whole idea obviously needs a lot of work, and I am in no rush to start it immediately.
My timetable is before expansion.
The idea would be to have multiple offices, near mission and trade hubs. Maybe ammo and some ships near the important mission hubs. A large concentration of BPO's near Jita nd other hubs.
I would ideally like to try the corporation for 3-6 months from launch. If it is clear it is not working then all BPO's would be returned to oweners. No loss of investment.
After working out the plan properly I could see the corporation selecting sites for offices and what BPO's are needed and a list generated, and then allowing people to invest.
Kazzac I will give you a shout in game (going out for the evening now though), and also be happy to make you on of the 3 (maybe 5) directors. Maybe Shar and/or a couple of others also.
Feedback, feedback, feedback.
I would really like to know what players thinking about paying fees thoughts are
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Loney
CyberDyne R-D
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Posted - 2009.01.25 00:38:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Loney on 25/01/2009 00:40:29 -edit Added PS Note
As someone already brought up... My biggest concern would be all the corp members having access to each others stuff while in prodution of the corp hangers. Theives have a HUGE advantge in this situtaion.
Unless, they fixed something I am unaware of I don't think there are any ingame barriers to prevent this from turning into a bad situtation.
I mean the CORP investments will not disapear, but if the "members" paying for access keep getting ripped off then I can't say how long the business will last.
PS. If you want to setup differnt Corps in the same alliance or something I would be willing to manage the Lonetrek Division. I have Every T1 BPO researched to High PE/ME that are just collecting dust in my hangers.
Check us out Now!
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Ricdics
Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.01.25 00:42:00 -
[14]
I might be interested in dropping in a full capital component bpo set for your venture as well as an Orca BPO. I think it is a good idea. |
ksc1226
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Posted - 2009.01.25 00:52:00 -
[15]
I think its a good idea if the theft problem was worked out somehow. Also, whats stopping one character from hogging all the BPOs, as in using 11 profitable BPOs while leaving very few for others? If the problems are ironed out I may drop in a few battleship BPOs. (Note: I haven't had much experience in a corp, I go solo...so excuse my potential ignorance on the subject)
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Loney
CyberDyne R-D
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Posted - 2009.01.25 00:52:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ricdics I might be interested in dropping in a full capital component bpo set for your venture as well as an Orca BPO. I think it is a good idea.
NO... I love Capital componet Sets! :)
Check us out Now!
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2009.01.25 00:52:00 -
[17]
If you're going to pursue the lease idea I would split it up into tiers. I suggest this mostly because access to an Orca BPO (as offered by Ricdic) should command a larger fee then say T1 frigs. I would imagine the newbs wouldn't have the resources to take advantage of this. Then as they build their resources they would move of the tiers of quality of BPO's. This wouldn't necessarily have to be limited to newbies.
It's better then Quafe! Off-topic. Please don't point out semantic errors of the moderators - Mitnal |
Ricdics
Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.01.25 00:59:00 -
[18]
But yeh it is open to abuse (people could mass cancel the jobs just for the hell of it causing billions worth of losses in materials going poof) |
Loney
CyberDyne R-D
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Posted - 2009.01.25 01:51:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ricdics But yeh it is open to abuse (people could mass cancel the jobs just for the hell of it causing billions worth of losses in materials going poof)
I don't see this happen on purpose as much as 1 person completing the jobs and just taking everyone elses stuff as it comes out of production.
I would like to see in the upcoming release, to make FACTORYS and LABS work more like the MARKET orders of CORP members. IE only the person the setup the corp sale/buy orders can cancel them. |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.01.25 02:29:00 -
[20]
Another option would be to have a few offices near each location.
Separate wallet divisions could be auctioned or fees agreed for thier use. Newer players might just want access to T1 frigates and ammo, or more experienced players might want several BS BPO's.
The use of individual wallet divisions may sort the problem of theft out.
It wouldn't be difficult to have 5 offices in a system (say close to Motsu) with 30-40 wallet division with varying amounts of BPO's in.
I envision this project as social and the chance to make use of under utilized BPO's
I will try and play with the corp mechanics to find out the exact theft issue.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.01.25 02:35:00 -
[21]
What about simply copying blueprints and giving them to whoever request them?
10% for Returning Customers |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.01.25 02:38:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ricdics But yeh it is open to abuse (people could mass cancel the jobs just for the hell of it causing billions worth of losses in materials going poof)
Generally speaking you would want to field your clientele much the same way anyone would field a new corp member. Interview, API check, eve-search, etc...
I know when we handled it internally in Sanctuary, we had a few tiers of manufacturing. Basic, Jr, and Sr. With each level getting access to better and more varied prints.
The honor system held well since for the most part the minute any shenanigans happened, they were dumped from roles almost immediately.
I'll have to double check the corp roles mgt, but I think its possible to allow job installation but prevent completion. Meaning they can throw jobs in the cooker, but it would require director intervention for them to get the final product.
I'll toy around with my capital alt tomorrow and see what can be done about limiting access to both slots and materials. |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.01.25 02:38:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Brock Nelson What about simply copying blueprints and giving them to whoever request them?
And that right there could prolly be the most elegant solution...... nice one Brock |
Loney
CyberDyne R-D
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Posted - 2009.01.25 02:47:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Brock Nelson What about simply copying blueprints and giving them to whoever request them?
And that right there could prolly be the most elegant solution...... nice one Brock
That would work nicely... however it would make the CEO/DIR effort increase from barely 1% to just about 100%. So not sure if it would be wroth it.
Cause if you just start throwing BPC's into the hangers and say "use what you need" it prevents no one from just taking htem all.
This idea would require CEO/DIR would have to: 1. Make the copies VIA pos/pos's (diminishing profit) 2. Have to issue the BPC's to all the requested them (reducing Profit/work Ratio)
I would have to see some numbers no matter whcih course was taken.
Check us out Now!
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Joseph Shephard
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Posted - 2009.01.25 02:51:00 -
[25]
Cosmoray -- I want to begin by saying I think the idea would be great if it can be made to function. Since you are asking for feedback, I'll just list a couple hurdles to making it work that I think you (and your idea's many fans) should think about.
One sticky issue is that your two groups (investors vs. clients) have opposing interests. Your investors would like to get the most ISK in dividend payments possible for lending your their BPOs. This means they benefit by having a high number of clients compared to the number of BPOs. Your clients, on the other hand, want to have the fewest number of clients possible compared to the number of BPOs. That way, they have a higher probability of getting to use the best BPOs and might even get to use more of them, ie. less competition for BPOs in general.
Deciding who gets to use the best BPOs, when they get to use them, and for how long would also be a hurdle to overcome. Clearly, whoever gets to use Ricdic's capital component BPOs will probably be rather happy with the service. Those that don't get their hands on the capital components and are left to pick through S, M, and L ammo BPOs might be a little grumpy. Figuring out how to make sure everyone gets a chance to use a good BPO will be tricky.
You would also have to find a way for your service to be superior to just purchasing BPCs. Unless you have a lot Capital Component BPOs and Orca BPOs, the majority of your items will probably be in the price range where several BPCs could be purchased for 20 Million isk per month. And, if you purchase BPCs, you know exactly what you're going to get, whereas if there is heavy competition for the BPOs in your service it might end up being more of a gamble -- you might get the really good BPO or you might get something worse than what you could have purchased on your own.
Once again, I like the idea, I just wanted to give you feedback as I thought of it. Best of luck!
J Shephard Arcelor Capital
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.01.25 04:31:00 -
[26]
I don't particularly like the idea of copies, for two reasons.
1. we require POS's and that has fixed costs and maintenance per month 2. Directors have to do all the work
The idea is that if set up CORRECTLY, it is maintenance free. The directors only need to ensure that dues are collected, and the dividends distributed.
Also if a player was to purchase copies it would cost more than the membership fees per month.
I would really like a system where both groups benefit. BPO owners earn capital on under used BPO's and manufacturers get to make stuff without the large capital costs of purchasing the prints.
I would really like to hear back from some newer players if the idea is viable, and if anyone would be interested in the service. |
Astarte Nosferatu
Abrivianius Manufacturing Corporation
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Posted - 2009.01.25 06:20:00 -
[27]
Although this is still in the alpha phase, I would certainly be willing to invest isk/BPO's (mainly Amarr ships and some random T1 mods/ammo) around the Amarr hub. I would also potentially be willing to act as a director.
Of course there are still a few issue that will not be that easy to overcome. |
MailDeadDrop
Globaltech Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.25 07:35:00 -
[28]
I think you may be able to use the "assigned office" feature to leverage the 7 divisions into 7 *per office*, which could help limit the theft any single ne'er-do-well could do (assuming each client is assigned rights at only their "home station", and then only to 1 or 2 divisions). The downside is that you'd need more instances of any particular BPO. And it still does nothing to prevent the "mass cancel" attack. Anyone know if corp industry jobs are logged anywhere? It would suck if there were not only no way to defend against mass cancel, but also no way in the investigation to identify the culprit.
MDD Jump Clones: 8M and NO corp switching |
Generalkey
Primary Industries
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Posted - 2009.01.25 09:11:00 -
[29]
An idea to avoid the massive influx of production slots used would be to spread the bpo's over multiple stations i.e.
Station 1: Frigates/Cruisers Station 2: BC/BS Station 3: Capital Construction Parts Station 4: Ammo/Drones
Yes you will find some stations more popular then others but it would relieve some strain if you where wanting to put 10 ravens in build but waiting on someones cruise missiles to finish.
The other thing that would worry investers is a joint scam you only need to bribe one other person to get access to all the bpo's scoop and split the profit.
Would younger manufacturers be able to cover the fee? But it does give them a great opportunity to build ships without copies.
Other then that i think it is a great idea.
Thumbs up for me.
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Ciphas
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Posted - 2009.01.25 09:20:00 -
[30]
Id be very interested in this adventure and would invest 2 Billion in BPO`s. I am not interested in being a Director but if taken on as a shareholder/investor would like a vote on who the 2 remaining directors could/would be.
I feel that would be the fairest way. And agree 3 Directors keeps the risk factor down to a minimum.
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