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dedalus2xx8
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Posted - 2009.01.21 14:11:00 -
[1]
Can anyone give me a straight answer to the question
What is the best caldari pvp ship?
Please, as i keep on hearing from people all around that caldari ships dont do well in pvp, and i tend to disagree. It's just they often focus on range and power rather than covert fighting tactics(ecm, sramblers tackling you know what i mean), and the main reason for most ships struggling in pvp is because of either choosing the wrong tank or not having the right skill set.
So if people can drop off their opinions in this topic and perhaps a fitting if your feeling generous. Thank you :):)
Let me start the ball rolling, i would think the best pvp ship for caldri would either be the ROHK or SCORPION.
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Connner
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.01.21 14:17:00 -
[2]
I'd throw in Falcon, it has no DPS but is very valuable in a PvP gang.
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fuxinos
Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2009.01.21 14:19:00 -
[3]
Edited by: fuxinos on 21/01/2009 14:19:59 Standard Pvp is around 0-50km max atm, so, they do bad, if you accept it or not.
Rokh = Fleetship Scorp = Slugish Jamship
Get a Falcon/blackbird, anythigelse would not realy help your gang, except the little dps you can add.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2009.01.21 14:25:00 -
[4]
Single most valuable caldari PVP ship is the Falcon. It's not very versatile but it's disgustingly good at what it's supposed to do.
Biggest problem with typical caldari ships is that fitting tackle sacrifices tank, and that missiles can require some support (TP, Web) to be most effective. Fitting those supplementary mods does, of course, sacrifice tank further.
Nevertheless, under the right circumstances missile boats will deliver good, reliable DPS to a target within good range.
"Good" caldari PVP ships include the following: Harpy (good AF), Caracal (decent cannon fodder), Drake (stout tank with tackle, good damage), Cerberus (DPS to any target it can reach), Blackbird (ECM), Falcon (ECM), Rook (ECM), Scorpion (ECM), Raven (if you're fighting BS and/or have web and painter support).
They're generally a mix of ships you want to call primary and can't because they're at range (Falcon, Rook, Cerberus) and ships you don't want to call primary (because they're built to tank) but have to shoot anyway (Drake, Rokh).
That's my take on it anyway and take it with a grain of salt since I don't fly caldari or with caldari, but I fly against them often enough. |
Industrial Hauler
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Posted - 2009.01.21 14:26:00 -
[5]
i know it probably wouldn't make much difference but surely the rook with 5 launcher slots would do better than the falcon? |
Leoviscus
Rukongai Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.21 14:56:00 -
[6]
Obviously all of the Blackbird hull ships are good for gangs. But for 1 on 1 PVP you are looking at the Drake as the best ship the Caldari have to offer. For taking out extra tanked ships a HAM drake can put out some serious DPS and still maintain a decent tank, albeit at limited ranges. [url=http://rukon.evekb.co.uk/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=64030] [/url] |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2009.01.21 15:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Industrial Hauler i know it probably wouldn't make much difference but surely the rook with 5 launcher slots would do better than the falcon?
The covert ops cloak makes all the difference. Most people gladly trade in ~200 dps for the ability to warp cloaked.
OP
People who tell you that Caldari are crap for pvp, wussed out on the Caldari line and cross trained armor tanking ships.
Most Caldari ships have plenty enough tank slots, even if you have to give up room fora propulsion mod and a point.
You also then get to dedicate at least 3 damage mods in your lows.
Also their snipers are far from useless. When people complain endlessly about Falcons its because they fit only for 0-50km combat. When I go for a roam, I make sure my gang at least has an ECCM Cerb/Eagle in it.
Pvp isn't MWD - Point - Web - cap injector anymore.
MWD is still mandatory in majority of pvp situations unless dictating combat range isn't your thing.
Point is mandatory unless you're sniping/EWAR.
Web's aren't as crucial (since you're engaging in mid range usually) and better left for your friends with spare midslots (armor tankers).
Cap Injectors - not as necessary on missile boats thanks to capless weapon system.
On most Caldari pvp ships you can't go wrong with.
3x damage mods damage control
MWD Point Tank
Weapons
Tank rigs
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Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
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Posted - 2009.01.21 15:08:00 -
[8]
A good Harpy will eat Amarr, Gallente and the other Caldari AFs for breakfast, and can force away most interceptors too. Minmatar are a problem though, as you can't dictate the range of the engagement, which is the Caldari way.
The best Caldari PVP ship is probably the Drake when fitted with HAMS, as nobody expects 1) Damage or 2) Speed from a Drake, so you usually get the upper hand when you start. Just be sure to rig and fit for PvP; don't just take your mission Drake out.
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Letifer Deus
A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.21 15:30:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Omarvelous
MWD is still mandatory in majority of pvp situations unless dictating combat range isn't your thing.
I've found this to be surprisingly untrue in low/hi-sec PvP. In general either you are setup on the station/gate or you are warping in/jumping to people setup on the station/gate. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2009.01.21 15:47:00 -
[10]
Quote: On most Caldari pvp ships you can't go wrong with.
3x damage mods damage control
MWD Point Tank
Weapons
Tank rigs
This.
Fit for buffer tanks and max damage, try to burn the other guy down before he kills you. Almost all Caldari ships are pretty good at these - even the much maligned Moa and Ferox. |
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Suicide Koala
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Posted - 2009.01.21 15:57:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Quote: On most Caldari pvp ships you can't go wrong with.
3x damage mods damage control
MWD Point Tank
Weapons
Tank rigs
not sure what ships your talking about, but any caldari ship with a mwd and a point doesnt have a tank, unless your calling 3 extender rigs, 2 invuls, and 2 LSE II on a raven a tank, sure its a nice shield buffer, you might even get close to 30k shield on a rokh, but no active repper, no cap booster to support the repper if you have one means any armor tanking ship with an active repper is going to eat you alive with em damage, especially if they are carrying ogre II's. that setup on a raven tanks approximately 130dps? hardly sufficient to keep you alive long enough to kill anything substantial and with the recent buff on missiles and no web or tp any same ship class is going over 100m/s will be even harder to hit. |
Reaver One
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.01.21 16:09:00 -
[12]
Eagle and Harpy, if you're talking about anything but a niche role.
Scorp, Falcon and Rokh are good at one thing. Crow is still viable for tackling only, but all other Interceptors will eat it.
Pretty much every other ship is a total loss. Anything that uses missiles is useless in PvP, and the rest (Ferox, Moa, Cormorant, etc.) can't walk down stairs and chew gum at the same time.
Train another race. I've flown only Caldari birds for a year now, and they just keep geting worse with every patch. |
echohead
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Posted - 2009.01.21 16:12:00 -
[13]
What about the merlin as a tough, cheap, versatile tackling frig? |
Oscar Fedora
FM Corp
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Posted - 2009.01.21 16:13:00 -
[14]
don't forget the basilisk
well not realy pvp but support is the key to survival ;) |
Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.01.21 16:28:00 -
[15]
A Scorpion can actually be a better choice for ECM support if you're flying with a remote-rep battleship gang. Compared to a Falcon, it has loads more buffer, more cap so it can actually use a remote rep, and it can fit a hevy neut which is probably one of the best anti-tackler modules out there. Its low speed/maneuverability and lack of cloaking abilities get negated somewhat by the fact that its no less maneuverable than the ships you're flying with.
Falcons are still a far better choice for lighter gangs or if you want to act as a scout.
I've flown most Caldari ships in PvP before and all of them are quite good at what the do, which is generally putting DPS on target at extreme ranges while still maintaining some degree of buffer. Caldari ships aren't always the most versatile and generally aren't good for soloing since they are so tuned for a certain role, but if you have them fill that role within a gang they will really shine.
My favorite Caldari PvP ship, at the moment at least, is the Eagle. A sniper fit with 250mm rails can do decent damage at 30km or out to 170+km just by swapping out ammo and scripts (alpha striking the shields off of a 'ceptor at 200km made me fall in love with this ship). A more moderate fit with 200mm rails can still hit out to 120ish km while packing an impressive buffer and a point. A buffer/blaster fit can make for a mean heavy tackler or baitship. And probably one of the best things going for the Eagle in terms of survibility is the 'suck' factor; Eagles 'suck' compared to, say, a Zealot, Falcon, Vaga, etc. so they never get primaried. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Von Kroll
Caldari Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.01.21 16:53:00 -
[16]
Also, if you need a heavy hitter at close range, the Torp Raven can be devastating, if properly employed and fitted. Believe it or not, the Caracal, properly fitted and employed, is arguably one of the best anti-interceptor ships in the game. HAM Drake is excellent at close-range fighting. Crow is a great interceptor, with a very complimentary set of bonuses.
For Caldari ships to properly function in PvP, you have to be more saavy than just "burn to optimal, turn on guns, and out-tank". This causes most players to dismiss Caldari ships since they don't conform to the conventional wisdom that drives current PvP tactics.
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Rakivic
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.01.21 17:50:00 -
[17]
I would go with the drake it's med slots make it verry addaptable at eather being a tank or a tackle and if you throw a painter on it can easily handel frigates specally if you couple it with adcvanced persision missles ----------------------------------------------- [Image Removed] CCP did not like my signature so I had to replace it with this one |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2009.01.21 18:09:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Letifer Deus
Originally by: Omarvelous
MWD is still mandatory in majority of pvp situations unless dictating combat range isn't your thing.
I've found this to be surprisingly untrue in low/hi-sec PvP. In general either you are setup on the station/gate or you are warping in/jumping to people setup on the station/gate.
You must be fighting some static and incompetent pilots (I don't care if I sound arrogant, high-sec pvp is a joke).
No MWD means everyone else is SIGNIFICANTLY faster than you and dictates the fight on their terms. Scrams don't mean jack against a BS when they can still damage beyond scram range.
When I was a noob I made the mistake of maxing out my tank and not fitting a propulsion mod. After losing targets that were in structure because they were able to burn away from me and warp off - or losing my own ship because I couldn't make it back to dock/jump range, I realized that max tank isn't everything in pvp.
You need to dictate range on your opponent. |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.01.21 18:14:00 -
[19]
I'm afraid there's not really a 'best' because it depends so much on what you're doing with it.
The real strong point of Caldari PVP is that you have a really good ship for ... most of the key gang/fleet roles.
And anyone who tells you that Caldari are bad in PVP is an idiot. They're bad as solo PvP (generally speaking), but that's pretty rare.
I would opt for the Falcon, as a versatile gang support ship that's welcome in the vast majority of combat styles. |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2009.01.21 18:22:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Suicide Koala
not sure what ships your talking about, but any caldari ship with a mwd and a point doesnt have a tank, unless your calling 3 extender rigs, 2 invuls, and 2 LSE II on a raven a tank, sure its a nice shield buffer, you might even get close to 30k shield on a rokh, but no active repper, no cap booster to support the repper if you have one means any armor tanking ship with an active repper is going to eat you alive with em damage, especially if they are carrying ogre II's. that setup on a raven tanks approximately 130dps? hardly sufficient to keep you alive long enough to kill anything substantial and with the recent buff on missiles and no web or tp any same ship class is going over 100m/s will be even harder to hit.
LOL.
Is your shield buffered raven carrying heavy neuts? It should be. Heavy neuts = active armor tanking enemy is SOL.
Yes any active tank needs to have a cap injector for pvp. Considering you have to have a point and a MWD on a short range dps ship, you will need at least another 4 extra slots to fit a proper active tank for pvp (ie ships with 6 midslots).
That means that Caldari ships smaller than BS fit buffer over active tanks (as does any other sensible pilot).
The Rokh can fit a respectable hybrid active/buffer tank that easily competes with armor tankers. (MWD - Point - 2x Invul fields - X-Large Booster - Cap Injector - damage control - rigs).
I don't know why you're quoting the rep ammount on a buffer tanked ship - its fairly meaningless. You're only interested in outlasting your opponent - which you can in Caldari buffer tanked ships, provided you have respectable skills and 3x damage mods.
I have no idea what types of targets you're shooting with a Torp raven, but they should be Battleships. Which is the case with most other battleships (except the Domi). You have a drone bay - fit it with target painting drones. BS will be going slow enough for your torps to do most of their damage, just like a turret BS has to deal with keeping its turrets from missing.
Seriously people Caldari is fine - don't try to imitate armor tanking ship tactics. Know your limits (just like anyone else that pvp's) and engage in that envelope.
Missile Boats Buffer tank + damage mods + propulsion + a point + neuts (Raven).
Turret Boats Buffer tank + damage mods + propulsion + point + NOS/cap injector. The only ship I bother with an active tank for Caldari Pvp is the Rokh because you have to have a cap injector on that ship regardless. |
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.01.21 18:31:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: Letifer Deus
Originally by: Omarvelous
MWD is still mandatory in majority of pvp situations unless dictating combat range isn't your thing.
I've found this to be surprisingly untrue in low/hi-sec PvP. In general either you are setup on the station/gate or you are warping in/jumping to people setup on the station/gate.
You must be fighting some static and incompetent pilots (I don't care if I sound arrogant, high-sec pvp is a joke).
No MWD means everyone else is SIGNIFICANTLY faster than you and dictates the fight on their terms. Scrams don't mean jack against a BS when they can still damage beyond scram range.
When I was a noob I made the mistake of maxing out my tank and not fitting a propulsion mod. After losing targets that were in structure because they were able to burn away from me and warp off - or losing my own ship because I couldn't make it back to dock/jump range, I realized that max tank isn't everything in pvp.
You need to dictate range on your opponent.
Not really. Range control is needed to keep your opponent tackled, but that doesn't mean that's the only role your ship can fill. Similarly warp scramblers mean that MWDs aren't necessarily the best idea as 'range control'. It depends a lot on what you're aiming to achieve by your mobility, and which of the spheres of control you're intending to be fighting in.
The place where Caldari ships are weak is when they try and do a bit of everything. The place where they're strong is if you decide on a role to fill, and fill it.
So supplying heavy fire power with a Rokh, when supported with a tackler for example, you don't necessarily need the same mobility options as you do when flying said tackler.
Although to be fair, I find the strength of Caldari to be it's ability to fire 'outside' scram/web range, at which point MWD is typically the tool for the job - staying away from the person who can hit you harder if they can just close up. |
Compendium
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Posted - 2009.01.21 20:02:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Quote: On most Caldari pvp ships you can't go wrong with.
3x damage mods damage control
MWD Point Tank
Weapons
Tank rigs
This.
Fit for buffer tanks and max damage, try to burn the other guy down before he kills you. Almost all Caldari ships are pretty good at these - even the much maligned Moa and Ferox.
Until you come across most buffer armor-tanks. Then you realize your HP is so much less and you die far too quickly. Armor buffer > shield buffer. Most Caldari ships don't have the powergrid to fit an adequate buffer, close range launchers, and a MWD. |
Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2009.01.21 21:21:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Compendium
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Quote: On most Caldari pvp ships you can't go wrong with.
3x damage mods damage control
MWD Point Tank
Weapons
Tank rigs
This.
Fit for buffer tanks and max damage, try to burn the other guy down before he kills you. Almost all Caldari ships are pretty good at these - even the much maligned Moa and Ferox.
Until you come across most buffer armor-tanks. Then you realize your HP is so much less and you die far too quickly. Armor buffer > shield buffer. Most Caldari ships don't have the powergrid to fit an adequate buffer, close range launchers, and a MWD.
Arroooo?
[Drake, pvp passive] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Reactor Control Unit II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Faint Warp Disruptor I
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x5
Only 2 damage mods but does over 500 dps with drones.... and certainly more than enough buffer...... I'm not saying that a Harbringer won't wipe the floor with this but its still a good ship.... |
Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2009.01.21 21:40:00 -
[24]
Quote: Until you come across most buffer armor-tanks. Then you realize your HP is so much less and you die far too quickly. Armor buffer > shield buffer. Most Caldari ships don't have the powergrid to fit an adequate buffer, close range launchers, and a MWD.
If we assume Absolution vs Nighthawk, the Nighthawk would have to kite the Abso around for 45 minutes without it's shields going down to take the upper hand over the Abso (passive shield recharge). This isn't impossible, but it's clearly absurd.
You've got no argument from me; there's a reason I stopped training Caldari and started training Amarr/Gallente back in 2007!
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Compendium
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Posted - 2009.01.21 21:41:00 -
[25]
To be honest, 500 dps is still a bit low for a gank battlecruiser. Gank Hurricane, Brutix, and Harbinger can push out 800 dps with more effective HP while even fitting a web. Plus, your signature radius is so large a battleship will deal far more damage to you while your MWD is off.
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Compendium
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Posted - 2009.01.21 21:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Quote: Until you come across most buffer armor-tanks. Then you realize your HP is so much less and you die far too quickly. Armor buffer > shield buffer. Most Caldari ships don't have the powergrid to fit an adequate buffer, close range launchers, and a MWD.
If we assume Absolution vs Nighthawk, the Nighthawk would have to kite the Abso around for 45 minutes without it's shields going down to take the upper hand over the Abso (passive shield recharge). This isn't impossible, but it's clearly absurd.
You've got no argument from me; there's a reason I stopped training Caldari and started training Amarr/Gallente back in 2007!
That's why I cross-trained to Minmatar. I can still get uses out of my missile and shield skills. An Absolution can shoot at my Sleipnir all day, thanks to the EM resistance. I use different ships for different situations I know are coming up. Nighthawk is still fairly resistant to thermal drones and blaster ships though. |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.01.21 21:53:00 -
[27]
Most Caldari ships are one trick wonders. The problem is they arent the trick you need 90 percent of the time. This is especially true for the T2 ships.
Then of course theres the Falcon. So basically you spec Caldari for the Falcon. |
Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2009.01.21 23:05:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Compendium To be honest, 500 dps is still a bit low for a gank battlecruiser. Gank Hurricane, Brutix, and Harbinger can push out 800 dps with more effective HP while even fitting a web. Plus, your signature radius is so large a battleship will deal far more damage to you while your MWD is off.
I've found that the sig increase doesn't have that big an effect, the crazy tank you end up with is worth the drawback, not to mention you have pretty high resists and would likely survive a DD with it.... and while the dps is sort of sad, what I usually do is actually reduce the dps by using light ecm drones and just slowly bleed the other guy to death |
Fairly Arbitrary
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.01.21 23:11:00 -
[29]
fken ham drake innit? |
yani dumyat
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Posted - 2009.01.22 00:02:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Von Kroll Also, if you need a heavy hitter at close range, the Torp Raven can be devastating, if properly employed and fitted. Believe it or not, the Caracal, properly fitted and employed, is arguably one of the best anti-interceptor ships in the game. HAM Drake is excellent at close-range fighting. Crow is a great interceptor, with a very complimentary set of bonuses.
For Caldari ships to properly function in PvP, you have to be more saavy than just "burn to optimal, turn on guns, and out-tank". This causes most players to dismiss Caldari ships since they don't conform to the conventional wisdom that drives current PvP tactics.
This ^^
Onyx or drake for solo. Light assault caracal for fun on a budget.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> If in doubt then all is good If not in doubt then ask yourself harder questions |
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