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comrade captain
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.01.12 11:22:00 -
[31]
Edited by: comrade captain on 12/01/2009 11:22:48
Originally by: Aurora Tagan Perma tanking Nightmare does it for me :) .
4x Tachyon Beam laser II (Amarr Navy Multifrequency) 1x Drone Link Augmentor 1x Small Tractor Beam
1x X-Large Shield Booster II 3x Mission Specific Hardeners II 2x Shield Boost Amplifier II 1x Cap Recharger II
5x Capacitor Flux Coil II
5x Medium Drone II 5x Light Drone II
Runs all modules permanently with a rather nice dps with the relevant skills at level 5.
I prefer the looks of the Nightmare over the Paladin, but that's just me .
not a single damage mod and 5 cap flux coils in lows makes baby jesus cry
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Aurora Tagan
Epic Army
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Posted - 2009.01.12 11:40:00 -
[32]
What, it works!
Cap flux coils allows me to afk run missions whilst at work
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Lim Lim
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Posted - 2009.01.12 12:10:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Lim Lim on 12/01/2009 12:12:24 Edited by: Lim Lim on 12/01/2009 12:10:41 I use a Nightmare and love it. I can't see how you can get a Paladin to the same DPS level with the Nightmare caldari BS 5% dmg bonuses.
I run the following mids (and I haven't had any issues in L4 missions even though I don't have skills maxed etc). I can perma run everything so if you control agro there should be no issue. Plus these mids are affordable and you don't need to shell out hundreds of mill on a deadspace L or XL booster.
Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Dread Guristas active mod switched for mission type Dread Guristas active mod switched for mission type Cap Recharger II
My thoughts are that range is key so use tachyons. If you *really* want to loot in a BS then that would be the reason for a Paladin. Personally I am not up for crawling around a mission in a BS most of the time when I could gank it faster in a NM and be onto the next mission etc etc.
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Jennz
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Posted - 2009.01.12 12:59:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Jennz on 12/01/2009 12:59:27
Originally by: Lim Lim Edited by: Lim Lim on 12/01/2009 12:12:24 Edited by: Lim Lim on 12/01/2009 12:10:41 I use a Nightmare and love it. I can't see how you can get a Paladin to the same DPS level with the Nightmare caldari BS 5% dmg bonuses.
Well, Paladin has 50 more calibration points and a bigger cap which means you could probably fit an Energy Collision Accelerator rig (+10% DPS) or even the T2 version (+15% DPS) which would make a difference. |
comrade captain
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.01.12 13:01:00 -
[35]
Hey jennz i bet your ship absolutely pwns now you have got the 4 drac/chelm tachs, what heatsinks you using and whats your dps now? |
Sanzorz
Amarr Mark Of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.01.12 15:29:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Jennz Edited by: Jennz on 12/01/2009 12:59:27 Well, Paladin has 50 more calibration points and a bigger cap which means you could probably fit an Energy Collision Accelerator rig (+10% DPS) or even the T2 version (+15% DPS) which would make a difference.
Afaik gunnery rigs are affected by the stacking nerf when you use Heatsinks, and those are easy to fit on both ships...so a bit of a waste of calibration points in my eyes.
Another reason to go for Nightmare is the phun of training Caldari BS5 which unlocks a few other options than just Marauder. Plus it's faster to learn Caldari BS5. |
ZW Dewitt
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Posted - 2009.01.12 15:33:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Lim Lim I use a Nightmare and love it. I can't see how you can get a Paladin to the same DPS level with the Nightmare caldari BS 5% dmg bonuses.
Maybe you should read the description for the Paladin
Originally by: Paladin Description Marauder Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems and 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
Also your setup doesn't have any tracking mods, so a Paladin with 2 or 3 tracking comps will have better tracking, even with the Nightmares tracking bonus. Plus 40km tractor beams. |
Esamir
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Posted - 2009.01.12 15:48:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Sanzorz
Originally by: Jennz Edited by: Jennz on 12/01/2009 12:59:27 Well, Paladin has 50 more calibration points and a bigger cap which means you could probably fit an Energy Collision Accelerator rig (+10% DPS) or even the T2 version (+15% DPS) which would make a difference.
Afaik gunnery rigs are affected by the stacking nerf when you use Heatsinks, and those are easy to fit on both ships...so a bit of a waste of calibration points in my eyes.
The T1 is a waste, but since the T2 is likely the highest percentage in the stack, it'll be unpenalised and still give a significant boost to DPS.
Also, re: setups without heatsinks....IMO if you undock a Nightmare with no damage mods, a fleet of 200 Sansha BS should spawn and relieve you of your ship
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Jennz
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Posted - 2009.01.12 16:15:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Esamir
Originally by: Sanzorz
Originally by: Jennz Edited by: Jennz on 12/01/2009 12:59:27 Well, Paladin has 50 more calibration points and a bigger cap which means you could probably fit an Energy Collision Accelerator rig (+10% DPS) or even the T2 version (+15% DPS) which would make a difference.
Afaik gunnery rigs are affected by the stacking nerf when you use Heatsinks, and those are easy to fit on both ships...so a bit of a waste of calibration points in my eyes.
The T1 is a waste, but since the T2 is likely the highest percentage in the stack, it'll be unpenalised and still give a significant boost to DPS.
I never knew that, that's definitely useful info. That just reaffirms my suspicion that an T2 ECA (which is actually viable on a Paladin given the cap bonus) would push Paladin DPS above the Nightmare.
Nightmare is vertical though, so it's swings and roundabouts I guess
Originally by: comrade captain Hey jennz i bet your ship absolutely pwns now you have got the 4 drac/chelm tachs, what heatsinks you using and whats your dps now?
No idea, over 1k I guess, haven't bothered checking - I just like shiny things.
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Helen
The Tetragrammaton Council
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Posted - 2009.01.12 17:07:00 -
[40]
My Nightmare setup: (I'm at 90mil sp so pretty much maxed skills)
Highs:
4 x Tach T2/Amarr Navy (Really bugger all difference but the faction ones let your cap run longer) 2 x Neuts/Smartbombs/Tractor/AutoTargeter (About the only aspect I change to suit the mission)
Meds:
1 x XL T2 Booster 1 x T2 Shield Boost Amp 1 x Shadow Serp 100mn AB 2 x Invulnerability Field T2 1 x Shadow Serp Sensor Booster/Heavy Cap Booster T2 (Depends on if its a heavy mission)
Lows:
3 x True Sansha Heat Sinks 2 x Power Diagnostic Systems T2 (Gives me the PG to fit Smartbombs/Neuts)
Ammo:
Usually a selection of Amarr Navy Multi/Standard/Microwave/Radio, really can't be bothered to carry more types than that.
Drones:
5 x Hammerhead T2 5 x Hornet EC-300/Hobgoblin T2 (depends on local channel)
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Petyr Baelich
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.01.12 23:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Helen My Nightmare setup: (I'm at 90mil sp so pretty much maxed skills)
Highs:
4 x Tach T2/Amarr Navy (Really bugger all difference but the faction ones let your cap run longer) 2 x Neuts/Smartbombs/Tractor/AutoTargeter (About the only aspect I change to suit the mission)
Meds:
1 x XL T2 Booster 1 x T2 Shield Boost Amp 1 x Shadow Serp 100mn AB 2 x Invulnerability Field T2 1 x Shadow Serp Sensor Booster/Heavy Cap Booster T2 (Depends on if its a heavy mission)
Lows:
3 x True Sansha Heat Sinks 2 x Power Diagnostic Systems T2 (Gives me the PG to fit Smartbombs/Neuts)
Ammo:
Usually a selection of Amarr Navy Multi/Standard/Microwave/Radio, really can't be bothered to carry more types than that.
Drones:
5 x Hammerhead T2 5 x Hornet EC-300/Hobgoblin T2 (depends on local channel)
Nice setup. I'll have to try the PDUs & smarties some time and see if that gives me a speed increase over another heatsink & tracking enhancer. I have to ask, though: what's with the long-range ammo? I've never needed to go longer than Ultraviolet with tachs, (at least not in a mission). Also, I like to use 5 vespa EC-600 & 5 hobs/warriors instead of your flipped setup. Hammerheads just can't deal with frigates effectively enough since the patch, cruisers are the first targets for my guns, and everything else orbits too far away for drones to offer any meaningful help when you consider flight-times.
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Garcea
Minmatar Viper Squad
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Posted - 2009.01.13 07:26:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
Nice setup. I'll have to try the PDUs & smarties some time and see if that gives me a speed increase over another heatsink & tracking enhancer. I have to ask, though: what's with the long-range ammo? I've never needed to go longer than Ultraviolet with tachs, (at least not in a mission). Also, I like to use 5 vespa EC-600 & 5 hobs/warriors instead of your flipped setup. Hammerheads just can't deal with frigates effectively enough since the patch, cruisers are the first targets for my guns, and everything else orbits too far away for drones to offer any meaningful help when you consider flight-times.
Considering I run missions in 0.0 its bound to be abit different to high sec mission setups.
Smartbombs are useful against enemy drones/coverts warping into mission or against npc frigates. I use longer range ammo because of 0.0 fighting conditions especially if facing long range Falcons or infact some missions require me to hit out at 120km to save travelling time, besides it doesn't hurt to carry abit more ammo. I don't worry about frig spawns in missions because I always primary them first when transversal is low. Therefore the only things likely to close in past my tracking ability is cruisers which is what HammerHead's are for. With regards to ammo just take what you need for your range I was just sharing my load out.
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Opertone
Caldari Gladiators of Rage Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.01.13 09:47:00 -
[43]
I have never flown Amarr, but I am starting to like what I see.
Why not use locus rigs, which give +10% to optimal range? Why not go one size smaller booster/repper, but instead get a more cap efficient device (gist a-type, corpii a-type).
Paladin can benefit from a capacitor booster, in sanshas missions it can restock the cap boosters on the fly.
Tracking computers are good, but extra hardeners and locus rigs are better. Spend less capacitor on smaller tier shield booster, overheat shield booster. Get longer range with locus rigs.
Shield tankers benefit from high resistances, passive recharge allows to ignore minor DPS. The crystal set can make a difference even with pith b-type small shield booster.
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Helen
The Tetragrammaton Council
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Posted - 2009.01.13 11:04:00 -
[44]
Why would you need locus rigs while using tachs?
You miss out on using armor/cap rigs if you use them while nerfing your pg which is especially hard on the Paladin.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2009.01.13 12:01:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Opertone I have never flown Amarr, but I am starting to like what I see.
Why not use locus rigs, which give +10% to optimal range? Why not go one size smaller booster/repper, but instead get a more cap efficient device (gist a-type, corpii a-type).
Paladin can benefit from a capacitor booster, in sanshas missions it can restock the cap boosters on the fly.
Tracking computers are good, but extra hardeners and locus rigs are better. Spend less capacitor on smaller tier shield booster, overheat shield booster. Get longer range with locus rigs.
Shield tankers benefit from high resistances, passive recharge allows to ignore minor DPS. The crystal set can make a difference even with pith b-type small shield booster.
You can already use tracking computers for optimal, locust is stacking against them and offering smaller effect. As far as smaller boosters go you sound like you would try to 'permatank' that ship. If so then more power to you, altho most missionrunners who do it as their main income and are actually paying attention to what they do tend to go with non sutainable high peak damage soaking ability over permatanks and use their damage dealing ability as tank. Dead rats do no damage.
You assume that pilot is looting while he is doing a mission. In most scenarios it is not so as it's more efficent to just kill everything and then come in later in dedicated looting ship.
Tracking computers are better than locust for abovementioned reasons. Some missionrunners DO overheat ... sometimes ... when they are in deep enough trouble. Depending on luck they bcan last as long as minute or so before shieldbooster breaks. Nanite paste is too bulky (and expencive) to use on regular basis in missionrunning.
Most missionrunners prefer max skills and +5 sets to crystals. Tanking is not an issue in missions when pilot knows what he is doing. Killing NPC's faster is. |
fuxinos
Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2009.01.13 12:04:00 -
[46]
Edited by: fuxinos on 13/01/2009 12:05:16
Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: fuxinos
Paladin can easily do anything a Nightmare can and a bit more...
Nightmare: 7.5 % tracking (amarr bs), 5% damage (caldari bs) and that flat 100% damage Paladin: 5% capacitor, 10% web from amarr BS, 7.5% repair and 5% damage from marauder, and then that flat 100% damage and 100% tractor bonus. And a bit better resists also ofc as it's afterall T2 ship.
So Nightmare has better tracking while Paladin has better armor tank, web bonus and tractor beams. Nightmare is also usually used as shield tank while Paladin armor tanks. I have no doubt that you can run missions in paladin quite well. Reason why I stated however that if skills are not an issue is, that it's slot layout is better for PvE and tracking bonus will help more than those new webs when max skilled for the ship.
Switch the Optimal Script to a Tracking Script and there you go, better tracking then Nightmare... |
Helen
The Tetragrammaton Council
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Posted - 2009.01.13 12:45:00 -
[47]
I really need to fraps missions in a Paladin and a Nightmare to compare results. Might finally settle the dispute over which is best. Then again its still something people can argue over as some like to loot in a mission and others don't....
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comrade captain
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.01.13 12:51:00 -
[48]
i think its pretty simple, if you need to salvage then paladin is better, if you just kill and want speedy missions then the nightmare is a little bit better ( the hits are higher dmg )
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.01.13 12:57:00 -
[49]
Originally by: comrade captain i think its pretty simple, if you need to salvage then paladin is better, if you just kill and want speedy missions then the nightmare is a little bit better ( the hits are higher dmg )
Pretty much what my first reply to the thread stated and there is another perk for the Nightmare. If you screw up and your tank breaks under full aggro you will have a lot more time to gtfo as you still have all that armor to go through whilst an armor tanker is already in hull sweating balls as he frantically tries to kill that last scrambling frig.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Ka'loor
Amarr Die Argonen
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Posted - 2009.01.13 14:09:00 -
[50]
I fly a Paladin and do not intend to switch over to a Nightmare ever because:
It looks better nut thats me :P on a more serious note.
It fits 2! Tracking comps, so if a nightmare doesnt fit some too, i have better tracking. It has 3 Heat sinks so i can breach 1k DPS with good skills and some imps. It does run 99% perma. EFT doesnt show perma, but then my guns rarely need to run all the time.
Yes my tank isnt as great as a nightmare with X-tpe but most missions give me enough time to kill of rats and tank the often miniscule return dps. Its just the missions with lots of enemies at close range that kinda suck. Or gallente dempers :S why have tachyons when you can only lock a few clicks, but that prob also hits the Nightmare.
I guess its even, but the Pally has a better chance of getting even or better due to easier time to get the tracking comops in ^^. Attack without mercy, until blood is gone, until life is gone, until the light is gone, unto the shadow itself.
Better to die with honor, than to live in shame. |
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comrade captain
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.01.13 14:29:00 -
[51]
another benefit of the nightmare is you can very easily fit 4 heat sinks
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.01.13 15:33:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Zeba on 13/01/2009 15:35:18
Originally by: comrade captain another benefit of the nightmare is you can very easily fit 4 heat sinks
Plus with amarr bs 5 and a tracking enhancer II in the last low you get better tracking and optimal range than a pally with two tracking computers however you setup the scripts. |
Madla Mafia
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.01.13 16:27:00 -
[53]
Originally by: fuxinos Paladin all the way.
Permarunning armortank, with 2 Tracking Computers better range/tracking then Nightmare, looting while shooting, same Damage as Nightmare, 200Mil less cost and the big bonus of pure sexyness.
Paladin > Nightmare in sexyness?!? I don't think so!!! ------------------------------------------
Amarr - getting screwed since 2005. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.01.13 22:38:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Carniflex
Originally by: fuxinos
Paladin can easily do anything a Nightmare can and a bit more...
Nightmare: 7.5 % tracking (amarr bs), 5% damage (caldari bs) and that flat 100% damage Paladin: 5% capacitor, 10% web from amarr BS, 7.5% repair and 5% damage from marauder, and then that flat 100% damage and 100% tractor bonus. And a bit better resists also ofc as it's afterall T2 ship.
So Nightmare has better tracking while Paladin has better armor tank, web bonus and tractor beams. Nightmare is also usually used as shield tank while Paladin armor tanks. I have no doubt that you can run missions in paladin quite well. Reason why I stated however that if skills are not an issue is, that it's slot layout is better for PvE and tracking bonus will help more than those new webs when max skilled for the ship.
it is rather easy to fit some tracking comps on a paladin though, was running 1 tc 1 web ( miss the 15km 99% domi web), might be worth it to try 2 tcs.
Originally by: Helen I really need to fraps missions in a Paladin and a Nightmare to compare results. Might finally settle the dispute over which is best. Then again its still something people can argue over as some like to loot in a mission and others don't....
meh, just save the logs and look at them instead, way less hard drive space wasted
when flying the paladin I like to at least cherry pick the bs wrecks in a 45ish km ball around me. |
Layla Ashley
Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed
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Posted - 2009.01.13 23:32:00 -
[55]
the main different between Nightmare and Paladin is .... the look!
otherwise (with proper fitting) their difference in missions is probably to small to even notice.
The advantage of the paladin is, you can salvage better, if you desire to do so. However, on the other hand, it has a really tight fitting. You will end up using fitting implants if you want to use officer/deadspace items.
In general, when deciding for which one to go, either use the one you think is looking better or the one you got better skills for.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2009.01.14 00:31:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
it is rather easy to fit some tracking comps on a paladin though, was running 1 tc 1 web ( miss the 15km 99% domi web), might be worth it to try 2 tcs.
Not too hard on the Nightmare either. I usually have a TC, and either one or two TE's. Which means, according to EFT graphs, MF remains the best crystal out to 55km. Which is nice. |
Jennz
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Posted - 2009.01.14 00:57:00 -
[57]
I can't fit a 4th heatsink without dropping either my PDS or TE, neither of which I really want to lose if I can help it. |
Calypso Rose
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Posted - 2009.01.14 01:55:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Zeba Plus with amarr bs 5 and a tracking enhancer II in the last low you get better tracking and optimal range than a pally with two tracking computers however you setup the scripts.
Nightmare with TE II and Tach II = tracking of .02751 Paladin with 2 TC II w/ tracking scripts and Tach II = tracking of .02994
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Zeba
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2009.01.14 02:00:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Calypso Rose
Originally by: Zeba Plus with amarr bs 5 and a tracking enhancer II in the last low you get better tracking and optimal range than a pally with two tracking computers however you setup the scripts.
Nightmare with TE II and Tach II = tracking of .02751 Paladin with 2 TC II w/ tracking scripts and Tach II = tracking of .02994
kk. Still its too small to make any real comparetive difference plus you gimped your optimal with the tracking scripts and also what would it be with 2 teII?
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Layla Ashley
Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed
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Posted - 2009.01.14 11:19:00 -
[60]
why is your optimal gimped with tracing scripts? you only need tracing scripts if the enemy is close to you. if it is far you simply switch to range scripts, as you don't need much tracing anyway |
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