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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:12:00 -
[1]
I'm serious: ECM sucks. I've used it a lot, in lots of different situations, and contrary to what some might think, I have been thinking a lot about what people have said in the various threads. I have come to the conclusion that ECM is horrible.
The effect, as many have noted, is too powerful compared to other EW. The balancing characteristic, that it is chance-based, makes it too unreliable to use as any kind of serious protection unless the chance of failure is so small that the ship is overpowered, or unless the range is so high that the ECM ship isn't in danger anyway. ECM ships have to be useless for everything but ECM, but or ECM ships to be worth flying at all that means they have to be too good at ECM. In the various ECM/Falcon whinethreads, a large number of people who know a lot about the game have comprehensively and consistently failed to come up with a way of making ECM ships useful for anything except ECM. Long range, unanswerable, fun destroying. In short ECM is either overpowered, or it is overpowered and useless (ie: it cripples the enemy in a situation where they would lose anyway), or it is useless. What it isn't, ever, is fun. For anyone. I have in the past argued that eg: Falcons are balanced because they have so many weaknesses and such specific utility. Whilst I still believe that this is true, I have come to the conclusion that the problem with them is not so much that they're imbalanced, but that their balance balance comes from being so rigidly specialised that they are either ridiculously good or ridiculously bad in a given situation. On average, they're not "overpowered". But what they never are is fun, either to fly or to fight.
So let's junk ECM and the current concept of hyper-specialised ECM ships and start from scratch. We need a completely different EW concept for Caldari ships. My thought is that it should have the following characteristics:
(1) Get rid of chance based effects, at least within optimal range. If it's reliable, it can be less powerful. If it's less powerful, then we can reasonably give Caldari EW ships stuff like drone bays or secondary E-War
(2) Caldari EW should still be the "best" EW, but by a much smaller margin than is currently the case. If Caldari recons are to get a secondary E-War, it should be the least powerful, and maybe a buff effect rather than an offensive one (eg: a range/effect bonus to remote sensor boosters or trackng links?) or something Caldari-flavoured like the equivalent of a tracking disruptor for missiles.
(3) Either drop the scorpion's EW role altogether, and buff it's drone bay and give it some weapon bonuses so that Caldari have 1 decent solo ship (and a tier 1 BS that can deploy a set of heavy drones like every other race has) or, if the new Caldari EW is worthwhile on a BS, give all the other races a tier 1 EW BS, and create a decent soloable (or at least multirole) t1 BS for Caldari to use. Currently the Scorpion Fails ItÖ and I say this as someone who dearly wants it to be a good ship.
tl;dr: drop ECM, rework Caldari ECM ships, let's hear your thoughts. |
hellsknights
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:16:00 -
[2]
BLAH BLAH BLAH......
NOS is to powerful, it gets reworked and NOS sucks.
Damps are to powerful, it gets reworked Damps suck.
Can Caldari recons be the best recon for crowd support i say sure why not. Every race has a ship in every class thats better then the other races.
Quit your damn complaining and fit ECCM like most people do in PVP situations.
Whine on!
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:19:00 -
[3]
Originally by: hellsknights BLAH BLAH BLAH......
NOS is to powerful, it gets reworked and NOS sucks.
Damps are to powerful, it gets reworked Damps suck.
Can Caldari recons be the best recon for crowd support i say sure why not. Every race has a ship in every class thats better then the other races.
Quit your damn complaining and fit ECCM like most people do in PVP situations.
Whine on!
Thank you for not reading my post.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:22:00 -
[4]
Originally by: hellsknights BLAH BLAH BLAH......
NOS is to powerful, it gets reworked and NOS sucks.
Damps are to powerful, it gets reworked Damps suck.
Can Caldari recons be the best recon for crowd support i say sure why not. Every race has a ship in every class thats better then the other races.
Quit your damn complaining and fit ECCM like most people do in PVP situations.
Whine on!
Ironicly both the ew you mention were overpowered when fitted on ships that were not specialized for it. And since ECM got a number of boosts. And still the problem is only the specialized ships. These cycles apply to all ships and all balances, they more or less have to be there.
Solution is in my eyes kind of simple. Boost counters for it or rework it more. Making it reduce the number of locked ships for example would be a great way of doing it. And it would put more use to signal amplifiers and auto-targeters.
Best solution still is simply to arrange damp ranges so they can affect falcons where they are at, and remove the option of jamming while warping or cloaked. That done I'd say it's all fine and dandy - the only risk being to counter all the fotm pilots with ready falcon alts forcing an overnerf - again. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 93926
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:31:00 -
[5]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: hellsknights BLAH BLAH BLAH......
NOS is to powerful, it gets reworked and NOS sucks.
Damps are to powerful, it gets reworked Damps suck.
Can Caldari recons be the best recon for crowd support i say sure why not. Every race has a ship in every class thats better then the other races.
Quit your damn complaining and fit ECCM like most people do in PVP situations.
Whine on!
Ironicly both the ew you mention were overpowered when fitted on ships that were not specialized for it. And since ECM got a number of boosts. And still the problem is only the specialized ships. These cycles apply to all ships and all balances, they more or less have to be there.
Solution is in my eyes kind of simple. Boost counters for it or rework it more. Making it reduce the number of locked ships for example would be a great way of doing it. And it would put more use to signal amplifiers and auto-targeters.
Best solution still is simply to arrange damp ranges so they can affect falcons where they are at, and remove the option of jamming while warping or cloaked. That done I'd say it's all fine and dandy - the only risk being to counter all the fotm pilots with ready falcon alts forcing an overnerf - again.
That doesn't answer my argument: that ECM inherently sucks. It's balanced by being either overpowered or useless. Whilst this is balanced, it's balanced by being fun-destroying; either the ECM pilot makes other ships useless, or the ECM pilot is himself useless. And ECM ships aren't fun to fly, not really. You spend 90% of your time passively waiting. You can't do a goddamb thing on your own. You are vulnerable - hilariously slow, tanked like a hauler, armed like a hauler - to the point of uselessness unless you can get enough range or unless you outnumber the enemy enough to make sure everyone in weapon range is jammed - in which case you were going to win anyway and you're still pretty useless. And if you do have the range, you then become so useful that FCs won't let you fly any other ships so all you ever do is get to jam the enemy while you watch other people having the actual fun. |
hellsknights
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:32:00 -
[6]
I dislike the Scorp, but its efective at what is does. Do we need an ECM BS i think we could do without.
If your using a Scorp for ecm support why not use a recon, i know the scorp will push out more DPS but still.
Maybe i just have Scorp hate. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:35:00 -
[7]
Originally by: hellsknights I dislike the Scorp, but its efective at what is does. Do we need an ECM BS i think we could do without.
If your using a Scorp for ecm support why not use a recon, i know the scorp will push out more DPS but still.
Maybe i just have Scorp hate.
The scorp is not effective at anything. It can be mediocre at several things.
I suppose it could be just about useful for ganking mission runners, where you know in advance what flavour of ECM to bring. And then only if you cant bring a domi. |
P'uck
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:38:00 -
[8]
Sure, everybody hates to be jammed. It's the least fun way of being ewar'ed.
Still, the only thing that really irks me, is how ridiculous the other specialized ewar/combat utility ships look compared to the falcon. |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:44:00 -
[9]
I wouldn't mind it being replaced by something else - I agree, both as user and victim, that it is the least 'fun' of the e-war. |
hellsknights
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:45:00 -
[10]
I can fly a Falcon and the Rook, i never do but i can. I would trade those 2 ships to be able to fly the Amarr recons any day.
The Scorp can be very effective at jamming and or be very effective tank the number of mids on the ship make it swing either way. |
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TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:51:00 -
[11]
Edited by: TimMc on 09/01/2009 09:53:47 /signed
ECM is boring for both sides.
How about buff defender missiles and make that the recons secondary ewar? How about making ECM work 100% of time on all ships within optimal, but making the effect simply break target locks instead of the 20 second jam? More like ECM bursts I suppose. It would cripple battleships and low scan res ships, but ceptors could still operate quickly enough to tackle.
And for the scorpian? It does sound like a very scary ship, alot of dps with no tank. Solo torp, heavy drone bs for caldari sounds great.
Edit: Could make al the black ops BS extremely ewar heavy, like the scorpian is now. Redeemer with neut and tracking disruptor bonus, Sin with warp disruptor and damp bonus, Widow with ECM and defender bonuses and finally panther with Web range and target painting bonuses. |
hellsknights
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:56:00 -
[12]
Originally by: TimMc Edited by: TimMc on 09/01/2009 09:53:47 /signed
ECM is boring for both sides.
How about buff defender missiles and make that the recons secondary ewar? How about making ECM work 100% of time on all ships within optimal, but making the effect simply break target locks instead of the 20 second jam? More like ECM bursts I suppose. It would cripple battleships and low scan res ships, but ceptors could still operate quickly enough to tackle.
And for the scorpian? It does sound like a very scary ship, alot of dps with no tank. Solo torp, heavy drone bs for caldari sounds great.
Edit: Could make al the black ops BS extremely ewar heavy, like the scorpian is now. Redeemer with neut and tracking disruptor bonus, Sin with warp disruptor and damp bonus, Widow with ECM and defender bonuses and finally panther with Web range and target painting bonuses.
If ECM was like a burst it would make the caldari recons useless and ECM as well. As for a defender bonus sounds useless and your too far from the fight to use those defenders anyhow.
Defender bonus would have to be on a close range ship not a recon. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:56:00 -
[13]
Originally by: hellsknights I can fly a Falcon and the Rook, i never do but i can. I would trade those 2 ships to be able to fly the Amarr recons any day.
The Scorp can be very effective at jamming and or be very effective tank the number of mids on the ship make it swing either way.
I can strongly advise training Amarr Cruiser V, since all their T2 Cruisers are fantastic, with the possible exception of the Devoter (and that's pretty good at least).
The scorp can be moderately effective at jamming, at the expense of any other utility. In which case, why not fly a Rook, which is better at jamming, locks faster and has better range. It can tank pretty well, at the expense of being able to do aanything else. I guess I should modify my statement to add that it makes a good bait/decoy ship. |
P'uck
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:57:00 -
[14]
There is some stuff I could think about:
Introduce "hit quality" like with turrets, which determines how long that jam cycle lasts, modify it in falloff.
Dont make people really lose their locks, but add a white noise effect on the targetted icons for the duration of the cycle. As long as this effect is active, all your mods set on that target deactivate. Maybe randomly disable the white noise effect during the jam period so people could still get a (partial) volley or some other modules in, if they react quick enough. At least that way you wouldnt be completely disabled, and it would feel more fun.
The falcon pilot still has no extra excitement, but meh, I'll think about THAT one, when I get my webstrength bonus on the specialized minnie ships, thankyouverymuch |
Krystal Demishy
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:57:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Krystal Demishy on 09/01/2009 09:58:23 Why should they give you a caldari solo ship while they nerfed all the others?! Caldari got way too much to perform perfectly in every role; if you trained another race you are tempted to cross-train another race to fill the holes of your race, but this is not for caldari! Tell me 1 single role that you cannot perform with caldari ships....
And about the ecm problem, the solution is simple: remove that ridicolous huge range, make it a very close range ship to be effective, and give it 2 different bonuses, like every other recon ship. ("made of paper" ?? stfu, the other recons are too). |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:59:00 -
[16]
Originally by: hellsknights
Originally by: TimMc Edited by: TimMc on 09/01/2009 09:53:47 /signed
ECM is boring for both sides.
How about buff defender missiles and make that the recons secondary ewar? How about making ECM work 100% of time on all ships within optimal, but making the effect simply break target locks instead of the 20 second jam? More like ECM bursts I suppose. It would cripple battleships and low scan res ships, but ceptors could still operate quickly enough to tackle.
And for the scorpian? It does sound like a very scary ship, alot of dps with no tank. Solo torp, heavy drone bs for caldari sounds great.
Edit: Could make al the black ops BS extremely ewar heavy, like the scorpian is now. Redeemer with neut and tracking disruptor bonus, Sin with warp disruptor and damp bonus, Widow with ECM and defender bonuses and finally panther with Web range and target painting bonuses.
If ECM was like a burst it would make the caldari recons useless and ECM as well. As for a defender bonus sounds useless and your too far from the fight to use those defenders anyhow.
Defender bonus would have to be on a close range ship not a recon.
The idea is to bring Caldari recons into the fight, not have them just sat at 170Km. That means making them useful - low slots, speed, drones.
But "burst" ECM still fails because it's chance based, and therefore useless. |
Soporo
Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.01.09 09:59:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Soporo on 09/01/2009 10:01:13
Yes, yes let's nerf the last thing Caldari has left that's better than everyone else.
Bring it in line with our sucky lolflight-time missiles, our crap dps rails, our ever vanishing mid-slots, our crawling speed, miniscule grid and microscopic dronebays.
FFS just remove the jam cycle when the jammer cloaks, tone down the Falcons range (let the Rook rule the roost for range), and all will be fine. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
|
Posted - 2009.01.09 10:01:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Krystal Demishy Edited by: Krystal Demishy on 09/01/2009 09:58:23 Why should they give you a caldari solo ship while they nerfed all the others?! Caldari got way too much to perform perfectly in every role; if you trained another race you are tempted to cross-train another race to fill the holes of your race, but this is not for caldari! Tell me 1 single role that you cannot perform with caldari ships....
And about the ecm problem, the solution is simple: remove that ridicolous huge range, make it a very close range ship to be effective, and give it 2 different bonuses, like every other recon ship. ("made of paper" ?? stfu, the other recons are too).
Take the ECM from your falcon or rook. I will remove the EW from any other recon ship of your choice.
We will 1v1
if you win, I will give you all my stuff then biomass my characters. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:01:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Soporo Edited by: Soporo on 09/01/2009 10:01:13
Yes, yes let's nerf the last thing Caldari has left that's better than everyone else.
Bring it in line with our sucky lolflight-time missiles, our crap dps rails, our ever vanishing mid-slots, our crawling speed, miniscule grid and microscopic dronebays.
FFS just remove the jam cycle when the jammer cloaks, tone down the Falcons range (let the Rook rule the roost for range), and all will be fine.
Thank you for not reading my post. |
Deltronious
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:02:00 -
[20]
(3) Either drop the scorpion's EW role altogether, and buff it's drone bay and give it some weapon bonuses so that Caldari have 1 decent solo ship (and a tier 1 BS that can deploy a set of heavy drones like every other race has) >Seriously. Caldari have the best solo ship in the game ie. the raven, and if you're talking pvp, well who's taking battleships pvp anyway?
Agree with the ewar sucks thing though. Hey I get the lachesis and arazu and while I may be useful in fleet situations my ewar capabilities are next to useless solo.
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:05:00 -
[21]
Originally by: P'uck There is some stuff I could think about:
Introduce "hit quality" like with turrets, which determines how long that jam cycle lasts, modify it in falloff.
I did consider a sort of "universal tracking disruptor", and it could work well.
Another thing I thought of was to make ECM protect a specific friendly ship rather than cripple a specific hostile ship, but that should be a secondary EW rather than the primary IMO. I dunno, maybe it could work. It would certainly make Falcons as welcome as Gaurdians and Scimitars, but I didn't train Recon V to fly a disguised Logistics ship. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:09:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Deltronious >Seriously. Caldari have the best solo ship in the game ie. the raven, and if you're talking pvp, well who's taking battleships pvp anyway?
wat? The raven isn't the best solo ship in PvP or PvE. By a long way.
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TimMc
Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:09:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Malcanis The idea is to bring Caldari recons into the fight, not have them just sat at 170Km. That means making them useful - low slots, speed, drones.
But "burst" ECM still fails because it's chance based, and therefore useless.
I said it would work 100% of the time. Lets just throw some stat ideas around...
5 second cycle time? Breaks lock on firing within optimal (30km without skills (15km falloff without skills))
Then boost these ewar ships so they can survive in the new close ranges: more hp, more speed and maybe a set of light drones.
Then work on a second ewar. I said defender missiles because they already exist, but it could be anything. Defenders should be able to lock down a single missile ship anyway imo.
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P'uck
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:14:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Malcanis I did consider a sort of "universal tracking disruptor", and it could work well.
what you think about my white noise idea? I like it because it still is jamming but the jammed guy needs to pay attention and isnt completely disabled. So jamming sort of becomes a mini game.
only downside i see, it doesnt promote teamplay with damping guys anymore... but I dont see falcons and arazus teaming up to maximize jam effect anyway.
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:14:00 -
[25]
Now I read your whine, I missed the suggestion for the new Caldari ewar.
The only part I agree with is the Scorpion overhaul ... an ECM battleship was fine in the days before Rook/Falcon, now it is just useless. Let's make it a good tier 1 comabt ship (I want a sentry drone bonused ship :-))
So untill you have a viable suggestion for a replacement ewar, don't bother (and believe me I tried to think of one, but all of them are already taken by the other races and any other ones don't make much sense). --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:15:00 -
[26]
So let's change ECM to be 100% effective but with a lower overall effect:
Have it reduce the maximum lockable targets by what is currently the jam chance. So instead of a 50% chance to jam as calculated by sensor strength vs jam strength it will reduce the targets that the ship can lock by 50%.
This is per ECM active but stacked (not penalized). So the next ECM active will not reduce the max locked targets by 100% but by 50% of the remaining 50% which is 25% resulting in 75% of max locked targets gone on the victim.
You need full numbers of available locks, so a max locked targets of 0.99 will not allow you to do a lock.
This would be more in line with the other ewar modules, being reliable but not 100% fatal. It'll be still better than the other ewar as it can remove a target from combat with enough jamming or more jam strength than the target's sensor strength.
Numbers might need some rebalancing but that's the best I can come up at this time.
-------- Ideas for: Mining
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:18:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Krystal Demishy Edited by: Krystal Demishy on 09/01/2009 09:58:23 Why should they give you a caldari solo ship while they nerfed all the others?! Caldari got way too much to perform perfectly in every role; if you trained another race you are tempted to cross-train another race to fill the holes of your race, but this is not for caldari! Tell me 1 single role that you cannot perform with caldari ships....
And about the ecm problem, the solution is simple: remove that ridicolous huge range, make it a very close range ship to be effective, and give it 2 different bonuses, like every other recon ship. ("made of paper" ?? stfu, the other recons are too).
t1 PvP cruiser ... Caracal is a joke (lacks fitting for HAMs), BB is ECM speced, Moa is a sniper or lacks DPS with blasters, Osprey is a support/mining ship.
all races have at least 2 decent t1 PvP cruisers except Caldari (Vexor, Thorax, Rupture, Stabber, Omen, Arbitrator). |
Gabriel Karade
Celtic Anarchy
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:18:00 -
[28]
Originally by: TimMc Edited by: TimMc on 09/01/2009 09:53:47 /signed
ECM is boring for both sides.
How about buff defender missiles and make that the recons secondary ewar? How about making ECM work 100% of time on all ships within optimal, but making the effect simply break target locks instead of the 20 second jam? More like ECM bursts I suppose. It would cripple battleships and low scan res ships, but ceptors could still operate quickly enough to tackle.
And for the scorpian? It does sound like a very scary ship, alot of dps with no tank. Solo torp, heavy drone bs for caldari sounds great.
Edit: Could make al the black ops BS extremely ewar heavy, like the scorpian is now. Redeemer with neut and tracking disruptor bonus, Sin with warp disruptor and damp bonus, Widow with ECM and defender bonuses and finally panther with Web range and target painting bonuses.
I'd say go the opposite way, instead make ECM not break locks, rather during the jam cycle the target can't activate modules on any of it's locked targets, but it's target locks return to normal as soon a jam cycle fails.
It's the old 'jammed again while spending 10 seconds re-acquiring locks' that makes ECM a little too powerful IMO - Keep breaking locks the role of ECM burst's and RSD's. |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:20:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka Now I read your whine, I missed the suggestion for the new Caldari ewar.
The only part I agree with is the Scorpion overhaul ... an ECM battleship was fine in the days before Rook/Falcon, now it is just useless. Let's make it a good tier 1 comabt ship (I want a sentry drone bonused ship :-))
So untill you have a viable suggestion for a replacement ewar, don't bother (and believe me I tried to think of one, but all of them are already taken by the other races and any other ones don't make much sense).
I want to see what other people think before I list my own idea for a replacement.
A scorp with bonus only to sentries could be interesting. It would need a 175m^3 bay though. |
hellsknights
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.01.09 10:21:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Deltronious (3) Either drop the scorpion's EW role altogether, and buff it's drone bay and give it some weapon bonuses so that Caldari have 1 decent solo ship (and a tier 1 BS that can deploy a set of heavy drones like every other race has) >Seriously. Caldari have the best solo ship in the game ie. the raven, and if you're talking pvp, well who's taking battleships pvp anyway?
Agree with the ewar sucks thing though. Hey I get the lachesis and arazu and while I may be useful in fleet situations my ewar capabilities are next to useless solo.
With the new Scram nulling out MWD it makes the Lach and Razu better at solo PVP. Fit your recon with a mwd and a bit of speed Scram at 20km away, damp them and they cant even lock you. You might have a hard time breaking there tank but you can keep them from locking you with your speed. |
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