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Cpt Greagor Liquid Relief 287	Posted - 2012.04.13 11:27:00 - [1] - Quote Hulks have always had a weak tank, and for good reason, it isn't a ship meant to tank. Anyway, as I said, they've always been this way, so what's with all the tears about it now?
Azitek Astrum Tech Pina Colada Armada 39	Posted - 2012.04.13 11:32:00 - [2] - Quote Part of it is that with the upcoming changes to drone poo and module drops, mining will need to become a more common activity if the economy is to continue at its current pace. So people are dusting off their hulks after months of PvE and suddenly remembering how frustrating they can be.
Endeavour Starfleet 796	Posted - 2012.04.13 11:33:00 - [3] - Quote Again it needs to be said that the issue with these ships is not tank (As in the ability to resist damage over time) but susceptibility to alpha (High alpha quickly overwhelms defence before CONCORD or blues can respond) A nullsec hulk that can tank NPCs should cost nearly a billion. That is normal. What isn't normal is these craft falling to such cheap gank craft in hisec. They dont need more sustained tank. They need alpha prevention via a massive boost to structure HP. That way it becomes stupid not to fly with a DCU and with said DCU it costs more per gank which will equalize things out.
Whitehound 42	Posted - 2012.04.13 11:33:00 - [4] - Quote I cannot answer your question at the moment. I am working on something ... your mother says Hello.
Alara IonStorm 1977	Posted - 2012.04.13 11:36:00 - [5] - Quote Another Hulk Reply. Hulks have a weak tank and the description and bonuses say it should have otherwise. Fitting restraints make it difficult to both tank and use mods that give your ship sufficient yield and utility unlike most combat ships that can pull utility, damage and tank. Ships that can target Hulks have been added or buffed considerably while Hulk Balance has not been addressed. More Grid to give them current levels of tanking with more utility might push miners to fit tanks as well as provide much needed challenge, difficulty and risk to suicide ganking. Buffing EHP Potential instead of EHP is a very EVE solution that benefits only those who use it.
sasuk Aliastra Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2012.04.13 11:57:00 - [6] - Quote hi A little background first I have been in eve since march 03 beta player, i have played on and off for many many years, and pretty much tried every thing in game Pve, pvp, mining, trading, hauling, exploring, fleet battles, WH, manufacturing, pirating, knull and lolsec, and many more and though out the time i have watched eve evolve in almost every area, except mining granted mining had a couple of buffs and the orca's but not much has changed, other than the market prices. And i think thatGGVs what the mining community are trying to say, one of the only professions in eve that is and has and will always be a low risk Alpha that is a very important part of the eve economy, EVERY THING IS MADE FROM MIN'S in one way or another Granted there are many people who will flame this and say eve is all about pvp and thatGGVs the end of it but as ccp say its a sand box and u can do whatever you want. the economy is player run to a large extent and i think ccp would like it to be totally player run, But because of the balance of game mechanics the minersGGV and industrials will always be at a disadvantage and low and behold most of the item's in the market are made buy the very people who are in Tears over ~~ hulk`aJoke^ which is soon Every profession deserves the same respect and dedication EVE FTW
Super Chair Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing 185	Posted - 2012.04.14 01:16:00 - [7] - Quote When I first joined EVE I had the preconception that mining fleets would need combat vessels to patrol and keep them safe. I realized this really isn't the case since most mining hulls can be killed before any effective response to assist the miner can be made. I think there should be some sort of medium between unsupported mining vessels dieing (and rightfully so) versus mining vessels having the tank to survive long enough to receive some sort of assistance (such as reps or having corpmates dispatch the aggressor(s)).
Endeavour Starfleet 797	Posted - 2012.04.14 05:52:00 - [8] - Quote They don't need that complicated stuff. They just need Hull HP Increase. If you think about it. It will mean hulk pilots who have been attacked will have to go back and fit a hull rep or have some logi domi hull rep them up at station or POS. That takes them out of mining for a while so attacking them is still a viable means to slow output. Just that it takes alot more DPS to actually alpha it for good.
Wyte Ragnarok 22	Posted - 2012.04.14 08:06:00 - [9] - Quote Cpt Greagor wrote: Hulks have always had a weak tank, and for good reason, it isn't a ship meant to tank. Anyway, as I said, they've always been this way, so what's with all the tears about it now? Went into thread expecting whining, was surprised. They're probably complaining because there is more ganking now than say, four years ago. Either way, tell them to shove it, because it's a mining ship, not a combat ship. If the little miners are afraid of losing their Hulk then they need to learn how to check local, use their watch list for known gankers, use d scan, pay attention, align and be ready. Rather than just sitting there, AFK, sat still, doing nothing like most incompetent miners do. Oh. And maybe tell them to downgrade to a Covetor if they can't afford to lose a Hulk Don't fly what you can't afford to lose; same goes for the little miners.
Skorpynekomimi Omega Vector 173	Posted - 2012.04.14 08:28:00 - [10] - Quote Because ganking is in fashion right now. Once the next expansion's settled in and trit is up to 10ISK per unit, maybe then it'll stop. Frankly, I'm just milking the hell out of gun mining before the expansion goes through. Once I can set up mining ops, the inflated mineral prices will be a license to print ISK.

Rockius Templar Corps Army of Dark Shadows 1	Posted - 2012.04.14 08:37:00 - [11] - Quote In recent days the system I have been mining in has been visited by said pirates and have ofcourse blown up one of our hulks. We didn't cry. Instead we decided to fit our ships based on a corp standard design and park a domi with 6 Reps that run indefinatly with each hulk cross repping with 5 medium shield drones. We also have alts duke it out in the belts to bring concord onto the grid. I know this my sound extreme but you have to EvEvolve with the times. Combined with drone, and loot nerfs ore and mineral price are rising increasingly every day. So in turn more miners return to the belts, which in turn brings more pirates. I don't know what ccp intends to do to balance the issue that one 5mill isk ship "fitted and inssured" can effectivly take out a 400million isk ship, or that our barges can be alpha striked. But the tools and resources are in our hands to try and curb or prevent us from becoming victims. Small simple steps can make a big difference in warding off gank attempts from smaller ships. As for the issue of being alpha striked I do agree that there needs to be some tweaking involved. Perhaps giving barges a smaller sig radius to give them more time to warp away, or like previously mentioned more hull so that DCU's will be more effective In the mean time lets focus on how you make it harder for them to kill you while trying to find a better solution than the ones I mentioned above. Lets face it guys we are prey. So are you ganna EvEvolve and try and stay ahead of your predators or are you going to keep dying and crying? Its our move guys.
baltec1 1091	Posted - 2012.04.14 08:45:00 - [12] - Quote The hulk can tank 3 alpha tornados with ease. The problem is people don't tank them then whine when this happens. The other month BATs went and killed 707 exhumers. None of them were tanked.
Kreeia Dgore EntroPrelatial Industria EntroPraetorian Aegis 3	Posted - 2012.04.14 15:01:00 - [13] - Quote What changed? Long story short: Everything getting buffed and new great gang ships appear while mining ships still being the same. May not hurt much back there, does hurt a lot now.
Whitehound 58	Posted - 2012.04.14 16:06:00 - [14] - Quote Rockius wrote: Lets face it guys we are prey. So are you ganna EvEvolve and try and stay ahead of your predators or are you going to keep dying and crying? Its our move guys. A valid point. The forum is a good place to voice our opinions on imbalances and to see what others think. One should not accept the game to be set in stone but also judge its mechanics. Some do not get this and they keep flying the same ships again and again and always use the same fits and it shows in their comments. The game has got its idiots.
Nylith Empyreal Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 91	Posted - 2012.04.14 16:32:00 - [15] - Quote 5th law of trolling; When the original thread goes off the deep end, but not locked, a new thread is made and the cycle repeats itself. -a
Katalci Creative Cookie Procuring Veto Corp 51	Posted - 2012.04.15 01:01:00 - [16] - Quote Endeavour Starfleet wrote: A nullsec hulk that can tank NPCs should cost nearly a billion. That is normal. What isn't normal is these craft falling to such cheap gank craft in hisec.. I did it with 300M, including the Hulk itself.
Whitehound 66	Posted - 2012.04.15 01:19:00 - [17] - Quote Katalci wrote: It doesn't need a buff. Check these forums for a t2 Hulk fit with 33k EHP. ... You check those fits. It needs a buff. The fits require you to use all slots including rigs and some need implants. If you cannot see how messed up this is then one cannot help you. No one is talking about ganks either. People use them as examples, but you should know that no ship is save from a gank. I thought you guys from Veto had a clue.
Alara IonStorm 1987	Posted - 2012.04.15 01:36:00 - [18] - Quote Katalci wrote: It doesn't need a buff. Check these forums for a t2 Hulk fit with 33k EHP. If someone brings three t2-fit tornadoes to suicide gank you -- more than the cost of your ship at current mineral prices -- it's unbalanced if you don't die. I never said the EHP needs a buff. EHP in regards to utility needs a buff. I have seen those fits and they can not fir 1 Mining Laser Upgrade in the lows. Let alone a survey Scanner. This is basic utility Arguing against a buff like this is like arguing you should nerf the Hurricane because it can fit a point and Gyro Stabilizers at the same time as tanking mods. The Hulk doesn't have enough slots to make the halfhearted tradeoffs PvP ships make so they have to literally sacrifice everything else just to fit a tank. With Mining becoming a greater need do to Inflation and most other Mineral sources closed on the 24th buffing Mining Ships may not be a bad idea.
Azemar Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations 3	Posted - 2012.04.15 01:42:00 - [19] - Quote Katalci wrote: Alara IonStorm wrote: Buffing EHP Potential instead of EHP is a very EVE solution that benefits only those who use it. It doesn't need a buff. Check these forums for a t2 Hulk fit with 33k EHP. If someone brings three t2-fit tornadoes to suicide gank you -- more than the cost of your ship at current mineral prices -- it's unbalanced if you don't die. Endeavour Starfleet wrote: A nullsec hulk that can tank NPCs should cost nearly a billion. That is normal. What isn't normal is these craft falling to such cheap gank craft in hisec.. I did it with 300M, including the Hulk itself. Seconded. It's called a shield booster with the correct damage type modules, and 5 medium scout drones. You don't need A type or X-type modules to pull this off. Rigs make it even easier. They are always cap stable too so you can just keep mining. If you're talking about PvP, then i have no idea.
Jorma Amatin The Scope Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2012.04.15 02:11:00 - [20] - Quote I'm more of the mind of "learn to be careful" lesson. Hulk pilots should learn to watch local, dscan, or start doing battleclinic or employment history searches for pilots in local. Another would have to be staying aligned to their docking station or a safespot before settling in for mining. As far as people thinking hulks need more EHP, they were never meant to be combat-ready ships, that's why mining fleets would sometimes run with combat support to guard them. If they wanted to be very cheap in highsec, have an ECM trained pilot take a Falcon so he can jam any aggressors.

Leto Atraities Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2012.04.15 18:55:00 - [21] - Quote Jorma Amatin wrote: As far as people thinking hulks need more EHP, they were never meant to be combat-ready ships, that's why mining fleets would sometimes run with combat support to guard them. If they wanted to be very cheap in highsec, have an ECM trained pilot take a Falcon so he can jam any aggressors. and yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine for a throw away trail alt to be able to hop into a catalyst and solo a 300MIl isk T2 hulk in under 14 days right?
baltec1 1095	Posted - 2012.04.15 18:58:00 - [22] - Quote Leto Atraities wrote: and yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine for a throw away trail alt to be able to hop into a catalyst and solo a 300MIl isk T2 hulk in under 14 days right? Thats what happens when people can profit from you failing to fit a tank.
Leto Atraities Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:20:00 - [23] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Leto Atraities wrote: and yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine for a throw away trail alt to be able to hop into a catalyst and solo a 300MIl isk T2 hulk in under 14 days right? Thats what happens when people can profit from "others" failing to fit a tank. Fixed. personally, i've only lost one hulk. my 1st hulk. and that's because back in '09 when i quite mining i gave that hulk to a friend who saw fit (against me screaming at him not to do so) to fly it around during a war dec. and hell no that shouldn't be what happens to anybody in high sec. no throw away alt should solo a hulk in high sec before concord arrives. and i don't give a damn what kind of tank said hulk has at the time of it's demise. only wat this should be possible is to a covetor because those can have no tank compared to the hulk.
Prince Kobol 540	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:32:00 - [24] - Quote Leto Atraities wrote: Jorma Amatin wrote: As far as people thinking hulks need more EHP, they were never meant to be combat-ready ships, that's why mining fleets would sometimes run with combat support to guard them. If they wanted to be very cheap in highsec, have an ECM trained pilot take a Falcon so he can jam any aggressors. and yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine for a throw away trail alt to be able to hop into a catalyst and solo a 300MIl isk T2 hulk in under 14 days right? Please show me this amazing T1 catalyst fit that can solo my hulk that has 27k EHP before you get concorded?
baltec1 1095	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:34:00 - [25] - Quote Leto Atraities wrote: Fixed. personally, i've only lost one hulk. my 1st hulk. and that's because back in '09 when i quite mining i gave that hulk to a friend who saw fit (against me screaming at him not to do so) to fly it around during a war dec. and hell no that shouldn't be what happens to anybody in high sec. no throw away alt should solo a hulk in high sec before concord arrives. and i don't give a damn what kind of tank said hulk has at the time of it's demise. only wat this should be possible is to a covetor because those can have no tank compared to the hulk. News just in, ships with no tank dont tend to tank very well. Want a tank? then fit a tank.
Leto Atraities Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:39:00 - [26] - Quote Prince Kobol wrote: Leto Atraities wrote: Jorma Amatin wrote: As far as people thinking hulks need more EHP, they were never meant to be combat-ready ships, that's why mining fleets would sometimes run with combat support to guard them. If they wanted to be very cheap in highsec, have an ECM trained pilot take a Falcon so he can jam any aggressors. and yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine for a throw away trail alt to be able to hop into a catalyst and solo a 300MIl isk T2 hulk in under 14 days right? Please show me this amazing T1 catalyst fit that can solo my hulk that has 27k EHP before you get concorded? don't try and play me. you've seen kill mails just like anybody else. and i'm not talking about your buffer hulk. i'm talking about any hulk. like i said already i don't give a damn how it's tanked. thats meaning even if said hulk was using a small booster tank setup a throw away trail alt shouldn't be able to beat concord to the punch in high sec.
Leto Atraities Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:43:00 - [27] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Leto Atraities wrote: Fixed. personally, i've only lost one hulk. my 1st hulk. and that's because back in '09 when i quite mining i gave that hulk to a friend who saw fit (against me screaming at him not to do so) to fly it around during a war dec. and hell no that shouldn't be what happens to anybody in high sec. no throw away alt should solo a hulk in high sec before concord arrives. and i don't give a damn what kind of tank said hulk has at the time of it's demise. only wat this should be possible is to a covetor because those can have no tank compared to the hulk. News just in, ships with no tank dont tend to tank very well. Want a tank? then fit a tank. are you trying to get me to respond a "no sh*t sherlock" back to you or sumthin?
Prince Kobol 540	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:44:00 - [28] - Quote Leto Atraities wrote: Prince Kobol wrote: Leto Atraities wrote: Jorma Amatin wrote: As far as people thinking hulks need more EHP, they were never meant to be combat-ready ships, that's why mining fleets would sometimes run with combat support to guard them. If they wanted to be very cheap in highsec, have an ECM trained pilot take a Falcon so he can jam any aggressors. and yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine for a throw away trail alt to be able to hop into a catalyst and solo a 300MIl isk T2 hulk in under 14 days right? Please show me this amazing T1 catalyst fit that can solo my hulk that has 27k EHP before you get concorded? don't try and play me. you've seen kill mails just like anybody else. and i'm not talking about your buffer hulk. i'm talking about any hulk. like i said already i don't give a damn how it's tanked. thats meaning even if said hulk was using a small booster tank setup a throw away trail alt shouldn't be able to beat concord to the punch in high sec. I haven't seen any kill mails because personally I think they are pointless. You have lost me.. you are not talking about my buffer hulk, your talking about any hulk Well if you are talking about any hulk that would include my buffer tank hulk as well. Actually.. what are you trying to say because you post makes no sense what so ever.
Leto Atraities Ministry of War Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2012.04.15 19:53:00 - [29] - Quote Prince Kobol wrote: I haven't seen any kill mails because personally I think they are pointless and I don't waste my time looking at them. You have lost me.. you are not talking about my buffer hulk, your talking about any hulk. Well surely if you are talking about any hulk that would include my buffer tank hulk as well. Actually.. what are you trying to say because you post makes no sense what so ever. KMs are pointless? you no pay attention to them? lol since you're not trying to follow what i'm trying to convey then i'll do it another way. it should not be possible for a throw away trial alt to solo a hulk in high sec when it's fitted with a tank using a small booster cap stable. clearly this is the more than common setup for allot of high sec peeps. and that should be enough to survive a solo throw away suicide trial alt in a catalyst in high sec before concord arrives.
drdxie Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 75	Posted - 2012.04.15 20:26:00 - [30] - Quote everybody knows hulks are prime targets.. so fit accordingly... my hulk has 26k EHP before I boost it with the orca with a Shield Harmonizing fitted. I also have a large S95 shield rep on the orca.. yea it not the optimal mining setup, but has survived countless gank attempts, you'd think gankers would do a quick scan before they warp in and start shooting...


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