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Varren Dar'khel
Starforged Ascendancy
1
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 19:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
Simply put, EVE's gameplay is suffering because all you idiot forum warriors like to *****, ****, and moan about every little damn change in the game.
You want to know my theory as to why we aren't getting FiS content instead of WiS. Here it is.
Its all your fault, CCP changes one damn thing and the forums light up with idiots, assholes, and trolls bitching about changes, bitching about CCP, and bitching about each other.
CCP isn't going to listen to your inane drivel, you want FiS, you want pewpewpew, then shut up, grow up and the play the freaking game.
Since you lot are so inconsolable about your tedious bitchings, It would surprise me none to think CCP was sick of all you. WiS will take over if all you have to offer CCP is threats of quitting, and threadnaughts of bitching.
You WILL be replaced by some rich little ******* with his daddy's credit card, who is more than willing to buy 12 monocles, 3 for each character on 4 accounts.
Your subscription is nothing but a number to CCP, you are $$$ in their eyes. (At least at any level where the big decisions are made.) And your $$$ can easily be replaced with someone else's.
Hardcore gaming has taken a backseat in the whole MMO market, I see big budget F2P/P2W on the horizon, hardcore gamers are now a niche market sadly, Farmville and other dreck of the like will be the standard if we do nothing.
Now tell me you don't see the trend too. If you do your either blind or a halfwit.
Now give one good reason CCP should cater to us niche gamers. From the forums it seems we are only capable of threats of quitting and mass bitching.
Give them a reason to give a **** about us, If you expect CCP to listen to you, then maybe temper the constant stream of bile and **** that flows from your mouths/keyboards.
Expand your horizons, let WiS have its day and don't feed the abominable NeX store. Either that or vote with your wallet, but like I said you will be replaced.
Eventually we will either fight this and win or lose and be phased out. But your bullshit isn't helping, and the sooner you idiots get that through your ******* heads and start using intelligent and constructive arguments and criticisms, the better our chances of keeping the EVE we love. |

J Kunjeh
64
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 19:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yes, it's all our fault...has nothing to do with the people who actually make the game. We hurt their feelbads and so they're withholding on us...must be. We've been vewy, vewy baaaad...must go sit in corner and cry now... "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-a |

Courdorecqe en Faan
Intaki Cultural Reserve
41
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 19:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
 We who follow the Way aim to live a life of moderation, not succumbing to the extremes of self-indulgence or self-denial. Ida is a way of living, we do not have any beliefs in heaven or hell, and do not take any writings or sayings as "truth". Ida is a path, but Intaki are expected to walk it themselves. |

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
22
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 19:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
J Kunjeh wrote:Yes, it's all our fault...has nothing to do with the people who actually make the game. We hurt their feelbads and so they're withholding on us...must be. We've bad vewy, vewy baaaad...must go sit in corner and cry now...
Yes, we're mean mean people who express our opinions. We should sit down and shut up and be good golden geese that give money whenever CCP wants it.
NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |

Avon
Versatech Co. Raiden.
57
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 19:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Crumbs, you could stick the OP in the dictionary as the very definition of irony.
|

oematoema
1
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 19:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Varren Dar'khel wrote:Eventually we will either fight this and win or lose and be phased out. But your bullshit isn't helping, and the sooner you idiots get that through your ******* heads and start using intelligent and constructive arguments and criticisms, the better our chances of keeping the EVE we love.
Look at some posts in the 1.1 issues thread. They contain intelligent arguments and criticism and are completely ignored by CCP. That makes me mad bro/sis/thing. |

Abrazzar
96
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 19:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'm sorry. I'm so, so, sorry.
   Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
29
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Varren Dar'khel wrote:Simply put, EVE's gameplay is suffering because all you idiot forum warriors like to *****, ****, and moan about every little damn change in the game.
You want to know my theory as to why we aren't getting FiS content instead of WiS. Here it is.
Its all your fault, CCP changes one damn thing and the forums light up with idiots, assholes, and trolls bitching about changes, bitching about CCP, and bitching about each other.
CCP isn't going to listen to your inane drivel, you want FiS, you want pewpewpew, then shut up, grow up and the play the freaking game.
Since you lot are so inconsolable about your tedious bitchings, It would surprise me none to think CCP was sick of all you. WiS will take over if all you have to offer CCP is threats of quitting, and threadnaughts of bitching.
You WILL be replaced by some rich little ******* with his daddy's credit card, who is more than willing to buy 12 monocles, 3 for each character on 4 accounts.
Your subscription is nothing but a number to CCP, you are $$$ in their eyes. (At least at any level where the big decisions are made.) And your $$$ can easily be replaced with someone else's.
Hardcore gaming has taken a backseat in the whole MMO market, I see big budget F2P/P2W on the horizon, hardcore gamers are now a niche market sadly, Farmville and other dreck of the like will be the standard if we do nothing.
Now tell me you don't see the trend too. If you do your either blind or a halfwit.
Now give one good reason CCP should cater to us niche gamers. From the forums it seems we are only capable of threats of quitting and mass bitching.
Give them a reason to give a **** about us, If you expect CCP to listen to you, then maybe temper the constant stream of bile and **** that flows from your mouths/keyboards.
Expand your horizons, let WiS have its day and don't feed the abominable NeX store. Either that or vote with your wallet, but like I said you will be replaced.
Eventually we will either fight this and win or lose and be phased out. But your bullshit isn't helping, and the sooner you idiots get that through your ******* heads and start using intelligent and constructive arguments and criticisms, the better our chances of keeping the EVE we love. Why are so many fanboys such tards? |

Varren Dar'khel
Starforged Ascendancy
1
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
J Kunjeh wrote:Yes, it's all our fault...has nothing to do with the people who actually make the game. We hurt their feelbads and so they're withholding on us...must be. We've bad vewy, vewy baaaad...must go sit in corner and cry now...
You might be able to lay the final blame on Hilmar's or Zulu's shoulders. But if you think for even 1/10th of a second that hurting their "feelbads" as you so inanely put, means **** then you are beyond redemption in your stupidity.
But if they no longer care what we think, I'd say that does matter. You can bandstand about whose in the right and in the wrong. I really don't give a ****.
Whether or not you think you right or wrong (or even truly are) it makes no difference. Your bad attitudes and constant drivel (even if justified) contributes to why they don't give a ****.
I see cause and effect, logic dictates.
I'm not here to tell you have committed some great sin, I'm here to tell your have consequences. |

supersexysucker
Uber Awesome Fantastico Awesomeness Group
5
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
My fav thing to do everyday is download a patch, google work arounds for bugs, relearn how to play since some huge aspect that did not need changing has been changed. And then once doing all that... log off due to a server hot fail, restart, fail, game crash.
We are $$$ to ccp... but eve never gets many players... every player lost is not one gained and that is less of those $$$
Dumb op is dumb.
It's crazy how a F2P like World of Tanks... can keep putting out new tanks, new maps, they made the beta maps look 20times better for the final game... and while having bugs. Some how they do not take the server down WHILE people are playing for a hot fix, they don't have a new patch every day... they do not fix stuff 3 times (maybe after 3 tries we can undock WITH all our mods online).
And while updating WoT... a F2P they can work on W+&P and WoB.
CCP cant keep eve working and fun. Grind for hours to get isk to pvp and get blobed!
Kinda love how W+&P is filtered... lol had to google to find out is was a racial slur... wow ccp thanks ccp the more I know... |
|

Varren Dar'khel
Starforged Ascendancy
1
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Razin wrote:Varren Dar'khel wrote:Simply put, EVE's gameplay is suffering because all you idiot forum warriors like to *****, ****, and moan about every little damn change in the game.
You want to know my theory as to why we aren't getting FiS content instead of WiS. Here it is.
Its all your fault, CCP changes one damn thing and the forums light up with idiots, assholes, and trolls bitching about changes, bitching about CCP, and bitching about each other.
CCP isn't going to listen to your inane drivel, you want FiS, you want pewpewpew, then shut up, grow up and the play the freaking game.
Since you lot are so inconsolable about your tedious bitchings, It would surprise me none to think CCP was sick of all you. WiS will take over if all you have to offer CCP is threats of quitting, and threadnaughts of bitching.
You WILL be replaced by some rich little ******* with his daddy's credit card, who is more than willing to buy 12 monocles, 3 for each character on 4 accounts.
Your subscription is nothing but a number to CCP, you are $$$ in their eyes. (At least at any level where the big decisions are made.) And your $$$ can easily be replaced with someone else's.
Hardcore gaming has taken a backseat in the whole MMO market, I see big budget F2P/P2W on the horizon, hardcore gamers are now a niche market sadly, Farmville and other dreck of the like will be the standard if we do nothing.
Now tell me you don't see the trend too. If you do your either blind or a halfwit.
Now give one good reason CCP should cater to us niche gamers. From the forums it seems we are only capable of threats of quitting and mass bitching.
Give them a reason to give a **** about us, If you expect CCP to listen to you, then maybe temper the constant stream of bile and **** that flows from your mouths/keyboards.
Expand your horizons, let WiS have its day and don't feed the abominable NeX store. Either that or vote with your wallet, but like I said you will be replaced.
Eventually we will either fight this and win or lose and be phased out. But your bullshit isn't helping, and the sooner you idiots get that through your ******* heads and start using intelligent and constructive arguments and criticisms, the better our chances of keeping the EVE we love. Why are so many fanboys such tards?
By your response, it is quite plain who the "tard" is.
Also use proper English you seem a ******* moron otherwise.
|

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Atlas.
71
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
another whine about whining thread |

J Kunjeh
64
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Varren Dar'khel wrote:J Kunjeh wrote:Yes, it's all our fault...has nothing to do with the people who actually make the game. We hurt their feelbads and so they're withholding on us...must be. We've bad vewy, vewy baaaad...must go sit in corner and cry now... You might be able to lay the final blame on Hilmar's or Zulu's shoulders. But if you think for even 1/10th of a second that hurting their "feelbads" as you so inanely put, means **** then you are beyond redemption in your stupidity. But if they no longer care what we think, I'd say that does matter. You can bandstand about whose in the right and in the wrong. I really don't give a ****. Whether or not you think you right or wrong (or even truly are) it makes no difference. Your bad attitudes and constant drivel (even if justified) contributes to why they don't give a ****. I see cause and effect, logic dictates. I'm not here to tell you have committed some great sin, I'm here to tell your have consequences.
Well, you're preaching to the wrong dude...I'm not one of the CCP haterz who sully up these forums day in and day out. I sorta agree with you, I just think you said it like a true asshat, that's all. "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-a |

Varren Dar'khel
Starforged Ascendancy
1
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:another whine about whining thread
Another useless post from someone who is less than nothing.
|

Varren Dar'khel
Starforged Ascendancy
1
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
J Kunjeh wrote:Varren Dar'khel wrote:J Kunjeh wrote:Yes, it's all our fault...has nothing to do with the people who actually make the game. We hurt their feelbads and so they're withholding on us...must be. We've bad vewy, vewy baaaad...must go sit in corner and cry now... You might be able to lay the final blame on Hilmar's or Zulu's shoulders. But if you think for even 1/10th of a second that hurting their "feelbads" as you so inanely put, means **** then you are beyond redemption in your stupidity. But if they no longer care what we think, I'd say that does matter. You can bandstand about whose in the right and in the wrong. I really don't give a ****. Whether or not you think you right or wrong (or even truly are) it makes no difference. Your bad attitudes and constant drivel (even if justified) contributes to why they don't give a ****. I see cause and effect, logic dictates. I'm not here to tell you have committed some great sin, I'm here to tell your have consequences. Well, you're preaching to the wrong dude...I'm not one of the CCP haterz who sully up these forums day in and day out. I sorta agree with you, I just think you said it like a true asshat, that's all.
Maybe I am saying like an "asshat" but for ****'s sake the idiocy I see on these is starting to look worse than the WoW forums.
And that is just SAD.
|

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Atlas.
71
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
Varren Dar'khel wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:another whine about whining thread Another useless post from someone who is less than nothing. Thanks for tl;dr'ing your posts for us, saves us the trouble |

Feligast
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Varren Dar'khel wrote:Simply put, EVE's gameplay is suffering because all you idiot forum warriors like to *****, ****, and moan about every little damn change in the game.
You want to know my theory as to why we aren't getting FiS content instead of WiS. Here it is.
Its all your fault, CCP changes one damn thing and the forums light up with idiots, assholes, and trolls bitching about changes, bitching about CCP, and bitching about each other.
CCP isn't going to listen to your inane drivel, you want FiS, you want pewpewpew, then shut up, grow up and the play the freaking game.
Since you lot are so inconsolable about your tedious bitchings, It would surprise me none to think CCP was sick of all you. WiS will take over if all you have to offer CCP is threats of quitting, and threadnaughts of bitching.
You WILL be replaced by some rich little ******* with his daddy's credit card, who is more than willing to buy 12 monocles, 3 for each character on 4 accounts.
Your subscription is nothing but a number to CCP, you are $$$ in their eyes. (At least at any level where the big decisions are made.) And your $$$ can easily be replaced with someone else's.
Hardcore gaming has taken a backseat in the whole MMO market, I see big budget F2P/P2W on the horizon, hardcore gamers are now a niche market sadly, Farmville and other dreck of the like will be the standard if we do nothing.
Now tell me you don't see the trend too. If you do your either blind or a halfwit.
Now give one good reason CCP should cater to us niche gamers. From the forums it seems we are only capable of threats of quitting and mass bitching.
Give them a reason to give a **** about us, If you expect CCP to listen to you, then maybe temper the constant stream of bile and **** that flows from your mouths/keyboards.
Expand your horizons, let WiS have its day and don't feed the abominable NeX store. Either that or vote with your wallet, but like I said you will be replaced.
Eventually we will either fight this and win or lose and be phased out. But your bullshit isn't helping, and the sooner you idiots get that through your ******* heads and start using intelligent and constructive arguments and criticisms, the better our chances of keeping the EVE we love.
he mad.
|

Varren Dar'khel
Starforged Ascendancy
1
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
Feligast wrote:Varren Dar'khel wrote:Simply put, EVE's gameplay is suffering because all you idiot forum warriors like to *****, ****, and moan about every little damn change in the game.
You want to know my theory as to why we aren't getting FiS content instead of WiS. Here it is.
Its all your fault, CCP changes one damn thing and the forums light up with idiots, assholes, and trolls bitching about changes, bitching about CCP, and bitching about each other.
CCP isn't going to listen to your inane drivel, you want FiS, you want pewpewpew, then shut up, grow up and the play the freaking game.
Since you lot are so inconsolable about your tedious bitchings, It would surprise me none to think CCP was sick of all you. WiS will take over if all you have to offer CCP is threats of quitting, and threadnaughts of bitching.
You WILL be replaced by some rich little ******* with his daddy's credit card, who is more than willing to buy 12 monocles, 3 for each character on 4 accounts.
Your subscription is nothing but a number to CCP, you are $$$ in their eyes. (At least at any level where the big decisions are made.) And your $$$ can easily be replaced with someone else's.
Hardcore gaming has taken a backseat in the whole MMO market, I see big budget F2P/P2W on the horizon, hardcore gamers are now a niche market sadly, Farmville and other dreck of the like will be the standard if we do nothing.
Now tell me you don't see the trend too. If you do your either blind or a halfwit.
Now give one good reason CCP should cater to us niche gamers. From the forums it seems we are only capable of threats of quitting and mass bitching.
Give them a reason to give a **** about us, If you expect CCP to listen to you, then maybe temper the constant stream of bile and **** that flows from your mouths/keyboards.
Expand your horizons, let WiS have its day and don't feed the abominable NeX store. Either that or vote with your wallet, but like I said you will be replaced.
Eventually we will either fight this and win or lose and be phased out. But your bullshit isn't helping, and the sooner you idiots get that through your ******* heads and start using intelligent and constructive arguments and criticisms, the better our chances of keeping the EVE we love. he mad.
You goons all a huge part of the problem anyway, I have yet to see a single intelligent post from a goon, except The Mittani, and even his are rare. |

Baralosus
Crimson Empire.
0
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Varren Dar'khel wrote:Simply put, EVE's gameplay is suffering because all you idiot forum warriors like to *****, ****, and moan about every little damn change in the game.
You want to know my theory as to why we aren't getting FiS content instead of WiS. Here it is.
Its all your fault, CCP changes one damn thing and the forums light up with idiots, assholes, and trolls bitching about changes, bitching about CCP, and bitching about each other.
CCP isn't going to listen to your inane drivel, you want FiS, you want pewpewpew, then shut up, grow up and the play the freaking game.
Since you lot are so inconsolable about your tedious bitchings, It would surprise me none to think CCP was sick of all you. WiS will take over if all you have to offer CCP is threats of quitting, and threadnaughts of bitching.
You WILL be replaced by some rich little ******* with his daddy's credit card, who is more than willing to buy 12 monocles, 3 for each character on 4 accounts.
Your subscription is nothing but a number to CCP, you are $$$ in their eyes. (At least at any level where the big decisions are made.) And your $$$ can easily be replaced with someone else's.
Hardcore gaming has taken a backseat in the whole MMO market, I see big budget F2P/P2W on the horizon, hardcore gamers are now a niche market sadly, Farmville and other dreck of the like will be the standard if we do nothing.
Now tell me you don't see the trend too. If you do your either blind or a halfwit.
Now give one good reason CCP should cater to us niche gamers. From the forums it seems we are only capable of threats of quitting and mass bitching.
Give them a reason to give a **** about us, If you expect CCP to listen to you, then maybe temper the constant stream of bile and **** that flows from your mouths/keyboards.
Expand your horizons, let WiS have its day and don't feed the abominable NeX store. Either that or vote with your wallet, but like I said you will be replaced.
Eventually we will either fight this and win or lose and be phased out. But your bullshit isn't helping, and the sooner you idiots get that through your ******* heads and start using intelligent and constructive arguments and criticisms, the better our chances of keeping the EVE we love.
Ok. |

MissingNo1
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
Varren Dar'khel wrote:stuff, zzzz.
Sorry, but i fell asleep when you started demonstrating irony. Ironic the fact your whinning about people whinning (spell it out for you).
If you have these opinions please fill out a form and join the que, along with all the other CCP alts thenkyew. |
|

Varren Dar'khel
Starforged Ascendancy
1
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Look we all know that 50% of you isn't going to listen or care about what I say, 40% will disagree with me. and the rest will silently look on, but I said what I had to say.
If you agree then spread the word, if not I can't help that.
If EVE dies I will be saddened and it WILL BE YOUR FAULT.
And then I will be on to TOR and my life.
If you can't understand the consequences of your actions, we all have to live with that.
Sadly and Sincerely, Varren Dar'khel |

oematoema
3
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
I honestly can't tell if 'he' is a 'he or a 'she'. Could be the wicked witch from the west. |

Ezurae
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
obvious troll is obviously obvious |

Khira Kitamatsu
130
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
OP looks like Gr+!ma Wormtongue. What would anyone expect coming from such a foul creature. Ponies!-a We need more ponies! |

Kirana Si
Nekkid Inc.
0
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
Varren Dar'khel is Hilmar, calling it now.
|

Feligast
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
40
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
Varren Dar'khel wrote:Feligast wrote:Varren Dar'khel wrote:Simply put, EVE's gameplay is suffering because all you idiot forum warriors like to *****, ****, and moan about every little damn change in the game.
You want to know my theory as to why we aren't getting FiS content instead of WiS. Here it is.
Its all your fault, CCP changes one damn thing and the forums light up with idiots, assholes, and trolls bitching about changes, bitching about CCP, and bitching about each other.
CCP isn't going to listen to your inane drivel, you want FiS, you want pewpewpew, then shut up, grow up and the play the freaking game.
Since you lot are so inconsolable about your tedious bitchings, It would surprise me none to think CCP was sick of all you. WiS will take over if all you have to offer CCP is threats of quitting, and threadnaughts of bitching.
You WILL be replaced by some rich little ******* with his daddy's credit card, who is more than willing to buy 12 monocles, 3 for each character on 4 accounts.
Your subscription is nothing but a number to CCP, you are $$$ in their eyes. (At least at any level where the big decisions are made.) And your $$$ can easily be replaced with someone else's.
Hardcore gaming has taken a backseat in the whole MMO market, I see big budget F2P/P2W on the horizon, hardcore gamers are now a niche market sadly, Farmville and other dreck of the like will be the standard if we do nothing.
Now tell me you don't see the trend too. If you do your either blind or a halfwit.
Now give one good reason CCP should cater to us niche gamers. From the forums it seems we are only capable of threats of quitting and mass bitching.
Give them a reason to give a **** about us, If you expect CCP to listen to you, then maybe temper the constant stream of bile and **** that flows from your mouths/keyboards.
Expand your horizons, let WiS have its day and don't feed the abominable NeX store. Either that or vote with your wallet, but like I said you will be replaced.
Eventually we will either fight this and win or lose and be phased out. But your bullshit isn't helping, and the sooner you idiots get that through your ******* heads and start using intelligent and constructive arguments and criticisms, the better our chances of keeping the EVE we love. he mad. You goons all a huge part of the problem anyway, I have yet to see a single intelligent post from a goon, except The Mittani, and even his are rare.
SO MAD
oematoema wrote:I honestly can't tell if 'he' is a 'he or a 'she'. Could be the wicked witch from the west.
it mad?
|

Jita Alt666
181
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
Dear Op.
Numbers of concurrent online users - declining Numbers of peak users - declining External interest peak due to expansion - non existent Forum discontent - rising
Please learn how cause and effect works. Inaddition: "Hardcore gaming has taken a backseat in the whole MMO market, I see big budget F2P/P2W on the horizon, hardcore gamers are now a niche market sadly" Eve has always been a niche game for a niche market, a large part of the discontent you see expressed on these forums is due to Eve Online changing direction and attempting to follow the market. We know Eve will never have massive global appeal - trying to force it to behave like a game that will is stupid. |

oematoema
3
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
that mad |

Alxea
U-208 Bacon Fortress Gaming Syndicate
9
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:31:00 -
[29] - Quote
Varren Dar'khel wrote:Great Wall Of Text. Derp!
 |

iNfeck7ed
Blueprint Haus Get Off My Lawn
0
 |
Posted - 2011.09.12 20:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
excellent troll
just wanna know what ccp employee you are disguising yourself as one of us
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