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Jayne Tamm
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Posted - 2008.12.16 22:42:00 -
[1]
Hey guys,
Ive been out of the game for a couple months, and have recently got back into Eve.
With the new patches, etc, I was wondering how good missiles were these days? Specifically, heavy assault and heavy missiles?
any advice appreciated.
Thanks
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.12.16 22:46:00 -
[2]
They do some damage to more stuff, and full damage to less stuff. This now tends to mean that your missile ship just won't deliver enough DPS to whatever you're shooting. -- 249km locking? |
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
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Posted - 2008.12.16 22:50:00 -
[3]
Heavy missiles got a boost if anything. The new fury missiles are more DPS than faction missiles, with ~85% of Faction missiles range, and 1/5th the price. Precisions are even more useless than ever though.
Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.12.16 22:57:00 -
[4]
Missiles:
So I'm trying to get my head around missiles again. Being the missile spamming ***** that I am. I wanted to know if the T2 ammo types for missiles had got worth using again. So I thought I'd work through it here, just because I love you all so much, and know how much you like long rambling posts with lots of numbers.
The formula for missiles is: Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)) )
Where sig = ship's signature vel = ship's velocity Er = Explosion Radius of missile Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile
The log function is the natural logarithm, to the base e, often denoted as ln.
The 5.5 in the equation is the hidden missile attribute "oaeDamageReductionSensitivity" which you can see in the QR SQL data dump (can also see it in tools like EVEmon).
From: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=901280
Not exactly the most intuitive formula, I know. So I thought I'd try and figure out quite what that means.
First off, it multiplies your damage by the minimum of those two equation elements.
First being MIN ( Sig/ER, 1). Signature / explosion velocity, capped at 1. That's acutally much the same as before - a straight reduction based on signature of the target, vs. signature of your missile. But it provides a damage cap - you'll never take more than that.
The other part is the speed based reduction. This is the new part, because it uses both explosion velocity and explosion radius, and compares them to target velocity and target radius.
EV/ER * Sig/vel - the velocity itself no longer matters, it's the ratio of velocity to signature. This is the interesting part - it says that the absolute number in velocity or signature no longer matters - it's only ever based on the ratio between them. That's interesting, because it means a painter makes both a small signature, or a fast moving target easier to apply missile damage to (much like turrets).
It also means explosion velocity itself not longer actually matters - again, it's the ratio of explosion velocity to signature - a 100m explosion velocity, 100m explosion radius missile, is identical to a 1000m explosion velocity, 1000m explosion radius missile. (At least, in this term of the formula - that sig/er term in the first part, will still provide a cap on max damage).
A 1MN AB II will make my 370m/sec kestrel do 933m/sec. So 2.52x effective increase in velocity/sig. A 1MN MWD II will increase it to 2456m/sec, but with a corresponding sig change by 500% - 47 to 282. (2456/282) / (370/47). Which is about a 1.11x increase.
Which I think we all knew - AB has more impact on missile damage than MWDs do.
How much? Well, damage reduction factors, we have a range from: 2.6 (precision light missiles) 5 (citadel torps).
ln(drf) / ln(5.5) therefore ranges between: 0.56 and 0.94. Those who remember their power terms, will also know that anything to the power of 'less than one' ends up lower than it was.
100 ^ 0.56 = 13.19 100 ^0.6 = 15.84893192 100 ^0.7 = 25.11886432 100 ^0.8 = 39.81071706 100 ^0.9 = 63.09573445
But that's a 'per missile' constant. It acts such that the missiles with the lower drf are less effected by the change in sig/velocity than the missiles with a higher drf.
So how does that apply in real terms? (I'm ignoring faction missiles below, as they'er the same as the vanilla but with higher damage numbers)
Precision heavy missiles - EV=87, ER=112, DRF=2.7, (base damage 130) Heavy missiles = EV=81, ER=125, DRF=3.2 (base damage 150/172) Fury heavy missiles = EV-97, ER=215, DRF=4.5 (base damage 192)
Javelin HAMs = Ev = 101, ER=125, DRF=4.6 (base damage 90) Normal HAMs = Ev = 101, ER=125, DRF=4.5 (base damage 100/115) rage HAMs = Ev = 93, ER=180, DrF = 4.8 (base damage 128) (more) -- 249km locking? |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.12.16 22:58:00 -
[5]
So that first term, Min(Sig/ER,1). Easy one that. 125m/sig or higher, that's 1. If it's smaller than the Ev, then that's applied a cap to your damage - you will never do more than Sig/ER * your damage. Damage caps: Prec HM: 40m frigate, 47%. 90m destroyer/125m cruiser/BS 100%á HM: 40m frigate, 42%, 90m destroyer 96%. Fury: 40m frigate 24.8%, 90m destroyer 55%, Cruiser 77.6%.
But, don't forget that your ammo does different amounts of damage: Normalised for damage against a frigate you get: Precision: 35%á á(47% x 75%) Faction: 42% Fury: 27.7%
Ok. But what about that second term?
(Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)) )
Precision HM: Ev/Er = 1.55,á álog(2.7) / log(5.5) = 0.58 HM: 1.296,á á á á á á á á log(3.2) / log(5.5) = 0.68 Fury: 0.899,á á á á á á álog(4.5) / log(5.5) = 0.88
javelin: 1.208,á á0.89 HAM: 1.208,á á 0.88 Rage: 0.772,á á 0.92
In order to do maximal damage to a target, this term need to evaluate as >1. (Because then the MIN(Er/sig,1) is going to be the highest). Because there's a 'power' term in there, that's acutally quite easy to reduce: 1 ^ anything = 1. >1 ^ anything = >1 <1 ^ anything = <1
This occurs at any point where (Ev/Er )* (sig/vel) = 1 or more. Or rearranging, when you get Ev/Er >= velocity/sig. When your explosion radius and signature matches, (e.g. shooting HAMS at a 'standard' cruiser) you get to compare straight velocities. But actually, the fact that HAMs, heavys, precision heavys all get a '1.2 ish' then that actually means this clocks in at effectively being the same number. Effectively, an explosion velocity of 150 in each case. You get this by multiplying that Ev/Er by the radius of the target.
So 125m, gets you: Prec HM: 193 HM/HAM/Javelin HAM: 150 Fury HM: 112 Rage HAM: 96.5
MWD cruiser (750m) Prec HM: 1162 HM/HAM/Jav HAM: 906m/sec Fury HM: 675m/sec Rage HAM: 579m/sec.
But what when we're going faster than that? Well, that's when the 'drf' term becomes relevant.
Let's consider an afterburning Osprey (for no other reason than it's a 125m sig cruiser). Does 490m/sec.
So, your looking at that whole term clocking in at: (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)) ) Prec HM: 0.396 ^ ( 0.58 ) = 0.584 (58%) (but remembering that it does 75% the damage of faction, you get 43%, or 'don't use these against cruisers on AB) HM: 0.3319 ^ 0.68 = 0.4723 (46%) Fury: 0.274 (27%) Javelin: 35% HAM: 35% Rage: 23%
To take a quick extreme: AB vaga (3 OD) 1260 m/sec, 115m sig.
At best HAMs can do 92%, but 'normal' missiles will be fine. Prec HM: 1.55 * 0.09 ^ 0.58 = 32% damage (24% of faction raw) HML: 1.296 * 0.09 ^ 0.68 = 23% damage.
Precision HM: Ev/Er = 1.55,á álog(2.7) / log(5.5) = 0.58 HM: 1.296,á á á á á á á á log(3.2) / log(5.5) = 0.68
AB Scimitar (3 OD): 1048 65m sig. Precision: 25% damage (19% faction) HM: 18% damage.
Erm.
I'll stop there I think. I suspect you'll have an idea of how the formula works now, assuming you can be bothered to read all that.
Summary: Precisions mostly suck. Furies/Rages got worth using, provided you're shooting at bigger stuff. MWDs don't reduce missile damage anywhere near as much as they once did, but ABs have quite a substantial impact. Importantly though, against a same size target, missiles will only rarely do full damage - precision missiles have about the right effective explosion velocity to deliver their full, lower damage payload, to a cruiser which doesn't have a speed mod fitted. And if you think about it, an ABing cruiser EVEN when webbed will not be taking full missile damage from the same size missiles.
Target painters offset this damage reduction, regardless of whether it's signature or velocity based though. -- 249km locking? |
Srioghal moDhream
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Posted - 2008.12.16 22:59:00 -
[6]
Essentially t1 missiles got nerfed, well, nerfed is a little harsh, but they were made less powerful (or useful) than their t2 counterparts.
So now there is actually a reason to use t2 missiles besides extending their range.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.12.16 23:00:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Srioghal moDhream Essentially t1 missiles got nerfed, well, nerfed is a little harsh, but they were made less powerful (or useful) than their t2 counterparts.
So now there is actually a reason to use t2 missiles besides extending their range.
Precisions are utterly terrible. Javelins are now marginal. (50% more range is lovely on a turret ship but basically worthless on a missile ship when it also drastically cuts damage and your velocity)
Rages and Furys are more worth using than they were - shooting larger targets, they do more damage than faction. -- 249km locking? |
ViperVenom
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.17 01:38:00 -
[8]
Yeah my Drake with a TD fitted can work.. yes less missiles more gund plz. --Yarring in a system near you--
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2008.12.17 03:34:00 -
[9]
Can only really comment on what I use.
HAMs and HMLs are awesome this patch. HAMs + web SMASH smaller ships. Fury/Rages are awesome vs the appropriate sized stuff and the range, even on hams, is a wet dream. Hello good dmg outside web range!
Not to mention the bonus of choosing a dmg type is sweet stuff.
I love the HAM drake and HMLs on my recons this patch.
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BiggestT
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.12.17 04:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Last Wolf Heavy missiles got a boost if anything. The new fury missiles are more DPS than faction missiles, with ~85% of Faction missiles range, and 1/5th the price. Precisions are even more useless than ever though.
EVE history
t2 precisions |
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.12.17 04:58:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Endless Subversion HAMs and HMLs are awesome this patch. HAMs + web SMASH smaller ships. Fury/Rages are awesome vs the appropriate sized stuff and the range, even on hams, is a wet dream. Hello good dmg outside web range! Quote:
That's funny, cause I flew my sacrilege into a frig and destroyer blob (knowing it would die of course) and it took me forever to kill a destroyer, and I could barely dent frigates. I had a web, but no TP, and was using faction HAMs. Am I missing something? __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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Sonderkommando
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Posted - 2008.12.17 06:08:00 -
[12]
The way I see it is that if you use missiles, your ideal situation is fighting targets larger than your ship/weapon class. Meaning that when I am flying my Torp Raven, I need to be looking for other BSs size enemy. The smaller my enemy, the less damage I can deal out. This, is why I prefer to fly something using HML over Cruise or Torps. A Drake can hit like sized BCs and BSs for full damage, and provide better results using HMLs against smaller targets. Or.. If you use smaller ships/weapons you get to hit larger ships for Full damage, where as if you are in something big, you get to do meh damage. Whoo Hoo!! I am glad I trained up Torps. lol. That's ok. T2 Heavy Fury are my new torps. And I don't fly that friggin slow moving/locking/aligning Raven as much these days. A blessing to be sure. I don't use HAMLs so I can not tell you how they work post patch. Good luck
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fuxinos
Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2008.12.17 07:27:00 -
[13]
I wish they introduce a module that gives bonis to missiles, other then damage, like a tracking enhancer gives tracking + optimal.
Pretty unfair if i cant hit a Bs for full effect with torps, if gunbased-Bssized weapons can.
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Solid Prefekt
Minmatar Haven Front
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Posted - 2008.12.17 07:33:00 -
[14]
All i know is before the missile nerf I was taking next to zero damage from missiles in my Vaga, now I am taking a between 30% to 50% damage depending on speed and if I am using an MWD or AB. Since Caldari seem to think missiles were nerfed I (as a non caldari) fully support you un-nerf missiles (and give back the Vagas speed).
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Lurana Lay
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.12.17 07:34:00 -
[15]
Missiles are great,asuming you're the one being targeted by them.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.17 08:16:00 -
[16]
Missiles are still good. They've taken a slight damage nerf against same-class targets, but it's not that bad (change the kinetic bonus to ROF, and it's fixed), but gained considerably against fast targets. Sure, an AB setup can negate a lot more damage than it used to, but if someone is bringing such a complete fail setup, you've already won anyway. -----------
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Stuart Price
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.12.17 08:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: fuxinos I wish they introduce a module that gives bonis to missiles, other then damage, like a tracking enhancer gives tracking + optimal.
Pretty unfair if i cant hit a Bs for full effect with torps, if gunbased-Bssized weapons can.
Military experts are calling this a target painter. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.17 09:25:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Stuart Price
Originally by: fuxinos I wish they introduce a module that gives bonis to missiles, other then damage, like a tracking enhancer gives tracking + optimal.
Pretty unfair if i cant hit a Bs for full effect with torps, if gunbased-Bssized weapons can.
Military experts are calling this a target painter.
Military experts are calling the Cerberus a 250km ship, operating where target painters don't work. -----------
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Stuart Price
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.12.17 09:35:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Stuart Price on 17/12/2008 09:36:17
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Stuart Price
Originally by: fuxinos I wish they introduce a module that gives bonis to missiles, other then damage, like a tracking enhancer gives tracking + optimal.
Pretty unfair if i cant hit a Bs for full effect with torps, if gunbased-Bssized weapons can.
Military experts are calling this a target painter.
Military experts are calling the Cerberus a 250km ship, operating where target painters don't work.
Which is fine - how many other cruisers get to do ANY physical damage whatsoever at 250km?
In any case, the Cerberus is an exceptionally fine ship. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.17 09:41:00 -
[20]
Eagle, of course. But how many other cruisers are designed to be long-range sniper ships? Yep, just the Eagle. Comparing the Cerb's long range damage to the other HACs is like complaining that blaster ships have too much dps. -----------
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Stuart Price
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.12.17 10:33:00 -
[21]
Which is pretty much the point - turret ships suffer a loss of damage at long ranges due to long range ammo dealing less than short range ammo.
Missiles do not suffer that (in exchange for flight time) - they inflict the same damage from 0-250km.
So they suffer damage loss through target painters having limited range, but given that paint range is MUCH longer than scram range it's not exactly an issue for most encounters.
So again, target painters are the module you want for putting more of those missiles potential to use. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.17 10:37:00 -
[22]
Why is this difficult to understand? Long-range sniper gunboats are given a way to increase their tracking while still operating at their maximum effective range. If long-range sniper missile ships are expected to fit a painter, then painters need 250km range (or there needs to be a tracking computer equivalent for missiles). -----------
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Stuart Price
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.12.17 10:42:00 -
[23]
I understand just fine - but missiles are not guns. The don't get a module to increase their effectiveness at extreme range because they don't need long range ammo to get that far - against most targets a Cerb is going to be inflicting more damage than an Eagle at 250km (once you take flight time out the equation). Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate' |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.12.17 10:47:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 17/12/2008 10:48:26 Range =/= tracking. Why is this complicated? Gunboats that operate outside of web range are given enough base tracking to hit for full damage (pulses, ACs) and/or the option to fit tracking mods that work at any range. Missile ships do not have that option, if a target is moving fast enough, you are not doing full damage if you are operating at your intended range. Therefore missiles either need:
1) Enough base explosion velocity/radius to hit a MWD/AB-only ship of the same size class for full damage.
OR
2) Either a tracking computer equivalent, or painter range increased to 250km (250km webs would obviously break the entire game). -----------
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Cletus Graeme
Caldari Duty.
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Posted - 2009.01.28 14:15:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 28/01/2009 14:15:41 I was able to follow James' explanation but I'm still unclear just how much fitting a painter will help.
Is it now worth fitting a painter on every missile boat? Does this include stealthbombers which already get a reduction to explosion radius?
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Visceroth
Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.28 15:06:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Cletus Graeme Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 28/01/2009 14:15:41 I was able to follow James' explanation but I'm still unclear just how much fitting a painter will help.
Is it now worth fitting a painter on every missile boat? Does this include stealthbombers which already get a reduction to explosion radius?
Of course it's worth fitting a painter on, if you can is the real question. QR is all about the sig radius of ships. Since you cannot outrun everything(nano) you must worry about how big of a target you are.
As for Caldari missile boats, they are very hard to run solo. Therefore bring a friend. Bring a Rapier or Huginn friend. I duo with a Caldari friend of mine, and I bring 2 webs and a TP on my Huginn. |
NeoTheo
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.01.28 15:10:00 -
[27]
Edited by: NeoTheo on 28/01/2009 15:12:13
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Military experts are calling the Cerberus a 250km ship, operating where target painters don't work.
OMG , REPORT , REPORT, FOR ONCE I AGREE WITH MERIN! WHATS GOING ON IN THE WORLD?!
lol, but yes, this, even at more acceptable ranges of 110 + painters are pretty useless. to answer the question though, missiles are OK assuming that you are max skilled, in otherwords, no more cruiser missiles 1 and prawning everyone (exageration but you get the point).
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Visceroth
Minmatar The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.01.28 15:13:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 17/12/2008 10:48:26 Range =/= tracking. Why is this complicated? Gunboats that operate outside of web range are given enough base tracking to hit for full damage (pulses, ACs) and/or the option to fit tracking mods that work at any range. Missile ships do not have that option, if a target is moving fast enough, you are not doing full damage if you are operating at your intended range. Therefore missiles either need:
1) Enough base explosion velocity/radius to hit a MWD/AB-only ship of the same size class for full damage.
OR
2) Either a tracking computer equivalent, or painter range increased to 250km (250km webs would obviously break the entire game).
While I get what your saying here, Gunboats cannot operate effectively at 250 KM. But you are right, Missiles need a module that will boost explosion velocity/radius. As it stands now, Missiles really only have 1 module that helps missiles, BCU's. Maybe if you give the missile boats a module they can put on that upgrades the warhead computers to increase explosion velocity/radius might solve the problem.
The way I see it, you are saying that Gunboats get mods that help them where they are weakest if they so choose. You are saying that you can't use TP's(the mod that is supposed to help missiles)at maximum range like you can with gun boats. |
NeoTheo
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.01.28 15:23:00 -
[29]
Edited by: NeoTheo on 28/01/2009 15:24:10 I think really the point is that turrets have a multitude of ways to improve the performance at various ranges, were as missiles are a packaged deal, above 50 + fall off; (50+ fall off is a way of me saying i dont have the game in front of me right now so cant tell you a painters exact effective range).
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Major Celine
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Posted - 2009.01.28 16:14:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Cletus Graeme Is it now worth fitting a painter on every missile boat? Does this include stealthbombers which already get a reduction to explosion radius?
In brief: Yes. Can't say for bombers, I do not fly them. |
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