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Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
104
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Posted - 2012.04.12 14:47:00 -
[61] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote: Indeed, the issue with the OP's suggestion is that it would accelerate this process and effectively "end Eve early".
If having access to the whole game at peak ability ends the game for you, what does that say about the game? |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
589
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Posted - 2012.04.12 14:55:00 -
[62] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote: Indeed, the issue with the OP's suggestion is that it would accelerate this process and effectively "end Eve early".
If having access to the whole game at peak ability ends the game for you, what does that say about the game? Ever turned the cheats on on GTA?
It's really fun at first, but you get bored and it completely spoils the game after a few hours. This is essentially the same concept, hopefully phrased in a way you can understand.
--Will Support Your Terrible Forum Thread For ISK-- |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6038
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Posted - 2012.04.12 15:12:00 -
[63] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:I know of EvE subscribers who *right now* are not playing the game because they are waiting for skills to train on their characters so they can access the content they want to play in the way they want to play it. GǪand the fact remains that they are just fooling themselves. Anything they can do after those skills finish will be no different from what they can do right now. If they don't feel like playing right now, they will not feel like playing afterwards either.
Allowing them to have their stuff earlier will make zero difference because it's the exact same thing: they will still not be happy and will just move the goal posts further down the field.
Quote:If having access to the whole game at peak ability ends the game for you, what does that say about the game? It says that there is something as GÇ£peak abilityGÇ¥ and that there is an GÇ£end-gameGÇ¥. Fortunately for EVE, it has neither. You are suggesting the introduction of both, or rather, you are assuming that both exist and are suggesting a way to get to them more quickly. In EVE, all there is is the voyage, and you're asking for a way to skip that voyage, leaving nothing.
The problem you're trying to solve doesn't exist. The actual problem lies with perception and expectations that EVE work like any other game out there, where you have to get to point X before the game really begins. Changing the mechanics (or, as in this case, breaking the mechanics and injecting willy-nilly the one thing that has any value in the game) won't solve that problem because it doesn't actually address any of the causes: the perceptions and expectations will be the same and they will be just as false as ever. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Astroniomix
EliteTroll
39
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Posted - 2012.04.12 15:13:00 -
[64] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote: Indeed, the issue with the OP's suggestion is that it would accelerate this process and effectively "end Eve early".
If having access to the whole game at peak ability ends the game for you, what does that say about the game? There is a reason that nearly EVERY GAME (I'm sure there is an exception) involves some form of character progression. It gives us something to work towards, as well as a sense of accomplishment. Also for a new player that has done his homework and/or gets into a decent corp early on, it is easily possible to access most of the content eve has available within a few weeks. I myself recently created an alt and am using him to mess around in the amarr militia. It only took a few days to get him able to use enough mods to be pvp capable and has so far killed 2 rifters and a (shitfit) thorax. All of wich had pilots easily several months his senior. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
104
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Posted - 2012.04.12 16:26:00 -
[65] - Quote
There is at least one game billed as an RPG that has no character progression, and most FPS games have little to no character progression. These games all rely on player skill, just like most of EvE does.
The parts of EvE that a new player can access are closest to FPS games already, which is why a new player can actually work well with them.
So skill points are redundant at the same time they are so important that allowing people to buy them (by any means, look at every other thread on this topic) would break the game.
This contradiction indicates that allowing people to acquire skill points more quickly (even instantly) wouldn't actually change anything at all but making it clear to people much more rapidly if EvE was a bad fit for them as a game. |
Astroniomix
EliteTroll
40
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Posted - 2012.04.12 16:36:00 -
[66] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:There is at least one game billed as an RPG that has no character progression, and most FPS games have little to no character progression. These games all rely on player skill, just like most of EvE does.
The parts of EvE that a new player can access are closest to FPS games already, which is why a new player can actually work well with them.
So skill points are redundant at the same time they are so important that allowing people to buy them (by any means, look at every other thread on this topic) would break the game.
This contradiction indicates that allowing people to acquire skill points more quickly (even instantly) wouldn't actually change anything at all but making it clear to people much more rapidly if EvE was a bad fit for them as a game. Confirming that COD and BF3 have no character progression. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
6041
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Posted - 2012.04.12 16:36:00 -
[67] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:So skill points are redundant at the same time they are so important that allowing people to buy them (by any means, look at every other thread on this topic) would break the game. You're confusing two separate issues.
Buying SP breaks the game because it bypasses a number of important mechanics and it lets you inject unlimited amounts of the one thing that is valuable in the game: time. Time is what gives a sense of progression, of goal-setting, and of planning.
SP don't matter because this is not a level-based game where higher is inherently better GÇö this is why the solution isn't needed: because the problem it's supposed to solve doesn't actually exist.
There is no contradiction between these two unless you keep making the false assumption that SP = XP, and higher GÇ£levelGÇ¥ is better than lower GÇ£levelGÇ¥. Remove that assumption, and you'll notice that both are actually close to being the same thing: it's trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, and in the process breaking the mechanics that cause the problem not to exist. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Katerwaul
The Scope Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.04.12 17:33:00 -
[68] - Quote
We can -- it's called power of 2. Wait, but that wont' let us just buy our way into new ships...and the gear is so hard to train for...
OH -- we can release faction gear that's better than tier 2 equpiment and less skill intensive to aquire, then moan when someone blows it to space dust because we have no idea what we're doing with it!
Wait..that won't work..
Okay, then we'll ignore the continuity of the game world & say that even though we're downloading advanced training alogrithims into our brain as quickly as safely possible we can pay to have someone open up our head and put even more in...because that makes sense.
Or, I don't know, we can try to figure out why we would "need to" buy skill points and see if we can have a realistic & sustainable alternative. My idea would be using Ship Crews like the "normals" do when someone doesn't have the skills needed to do it themselves. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
593
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Posted - 2012.04.12 19:19:00 -
[69] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:So skill points are redundant at the same time they are so important that allowing people to buy them (by any means, look at every other thread on this topic) would break the game. Skill points aren't redundant, they are incredibly important, but our point is that beyond a certain point they are redundant for ships that allow you to play the game.
For example a new player can get into an assault frigate pretty quickly, allowing them to PvP effectively. They can also get into T3s and HACs quite fast, probably faster than it takes to really learn to use them properly.
In this way skill points are not particularly important, a new low SP player can be very good in an AF, HAC or even T3 and through these ships have access to most of the content in the game. Similarly the tier 3 battle cruisers were introduced specifically with new players in mind, they were intentionally not released as battleships for that very reason. (Also, because four BS per race = meh)
The difference is that whilst SP in this regard is not particularly important, it is important when it comes to capitals. It allows us perfect production, perfect mining, jump freighters, super capitals, titans.
This game simply would not work if everyone had access to titans, super capitals, jump freighters etc. Already the issues caused by these things becoming to common is starting to be felt, as I said earlier the OP's suggestion merely accelerates this process to the point where the proliferation of these ships, and the streamlining of logistics/mining/industry, would very likely kill Eve.
Other games have died in the past due to unlimited resources/XP becoming freely available and saturating the market, I'd rather not see it happen to Eve.
Either way, it's a moot point. CCP won't implement it.
--Will Support Your Terrible Forum Thread For ISK-- |
Welsige
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
38
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Posted - 2012.04.12 19:20:00 -
[70] - Quote
Zyress wrote:Personally I don't like the character market either, but to the core of the matter, Pay to win ruins the game. End of statement
In a way the market is pay to win.
As soon as i get the isk, i will be getting some skilled chars there anyway.
Only diference between buying SP and a character really is having to cope with awful portraits and fail cosmetic choices.
~ 10.058 ~
Free The Mittani |
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Welsige
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
38
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Posted - 2012.04.12 19:23:00 -
[71] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:So skill points are redundant at the same time they are so important that allowing people to buy them (by any means, look at every other thread on this topic) would break the game. Skill points aren't redundant, they are incredibly important, but our point is that beyond a certain point they are redundant for ships that allow you to play the game. For example a new player can get into an assault frigate pretty quickly, allowing them to PvP effectively. They can also get into T3s and HACs quite fast, probably faster than it takes to really learn to use them properly. In this way skill points are not particularly important, a new low SP player can be very good in an AF, HAC or even T3 and through these ships have access to most of the content in the game. Similarly the tier 3 battle cruisers were introduced specifically with new players in mind, they were intentionally not released as battleships for that very reason. (Also, because four BS per race = meh) The difference is that whilst SP in this regard is not particularly important, it is important when it comes to capitals. It allows us perfect production, perfect mining, jump freighters, super capitals, titans. This game simply would not work if everyone had access to titans, super capitals, jump freighters etc. Already the issues caused by these things becoming to common is starting to be felt, as I said earlier the OP's suggestion merely accelerates this process to the point where the proliferation of these ships, and the streamlining of logistics/mining/industry, would very likely kill Eve. Other games have died in the past due to unlimited resources/XP becoming freely available and saturating the market, I'd rather not see it happen to Eve. Either way, it's a moot point. CCP won't implement it.
QFT.
The choice to buy "SP" already exists anyway, so why invest dev time on it... theres already a market set and the prices are there to those that can afford them. ~ 10.058 ~
Free The Mittani |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
593
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:24:00 -
[72] - Quote
Welsige wrote:In a way the market is pay to win.
As soon as i get the isk, i will be getting some skilled chars there anyway.
Only diference between buying SP and a character really is having to cope with awful portraits and fail cosmetic choices.
Hehe, you know you can change the portraits right?
But yeah, the character bazaar is pay to win. Unfortunately character trading occurred very frequently on illegal sites anyway, so IMHO I agree with CCP's decision to legitimize it.
If you cannot stop an illegal activity, you may as well legitimize it and make some money from it. If only our governments would take that approach with the drug trade
--Will Support Your Terrible Forum Thread For ISK-- |
Astroniomix
EliteTroll
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:24:00 -
[73] - Quote
Welsige wrote:Zyress wrote:Personally I don't like the character market either, but to the core of the matter, Pay to win ruins the game. End of statement In a way the market is pay to win. As soon as i get the isk, i will be getting some skilled chars there anyway. Only diference between buying SP and a character really is having to cope with awful portraits and fail cosmetic choices. Can you no longer do a portrait swap? |
Welsige
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
38
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Posted - 2012.04.12 19:26:00 -
[74] - Quote
Just to add, i would find more entertaining if there was some way to accelerate some skills other than character attributes.
Would be intereting to have some dificult pve sites that would drop boosters for specific skills that would make its way to the market, like 1 week bosters that would accelerate said skill 30%.
Just some toughts. ~ 10.058 ~
Free The Mittani |
Welsige
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
38
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:28:00 -
[75] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:Welsige wrote:Zyress wrote:Personally I don't like the character market either, but to the core of the matter, Pay to win ruins the game. End of statement In a way the market is pay to win. As soon as i get the isk, i will be getting some skilled chars there anyway. Only diference between buying SP and a character really is having to cope with awful portraits and fail cosmetic choices. Can you no longer do a portrait swap?
Yeah but only poses. I would pay real cash to be able to change a charactrer completely including gender. ~ 10.058 ~
Free The Mittani |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
593
|
Posted - 2012.04.12 19:34:00 -
[76] - Quote
Welsige wrote:Would be intereting to have some dificult pve sites that would drop boosters for specific skills that would make its way to the market, like 1 week bosters that would accelerate said skill 30%.
Just some toughts. To be honest I'd like it if attribute implants were removed and replaced with attribute boosters. The current system heavily penalizes null sec players and specifically PvP characters, in my opinion unnecessarily.
It would be nice to see them replaced with boosters, so the effects remain beyond the loss of a pod. And perhaps replace the current learning implants with a wider range of performance implants to go with hardwires.
--Will Support Your Terrible Forum Thread For ISK-- |
Tidurious
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
208
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Posted - 2012.04.12 19:51:00 -
[77] - Quote
Aranakas wrote:Zyress wrote:Personally I don't like the character market either, but to the core of the matter, Pay to win ruins the game. End of statement Then Character Bazaar should be done away with too.
This is absolutely correct - Pay to win would destroy EVE, and the Char Bazaar is slowly going that way and needs to be removed.
Please biomass yourself OP; may I suggest self-immolation? (in-game, of course) |
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