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Emi Raaf
Emi Raaf's Corporation
    |
Posted - 2008.11.18 08:36:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Emi Raaf on 18/11/2008 08:37:30
Usually, it's annoying while selling at 300k forexample, and someone lowers the price by 1k instead of .01.
I mean It's just pathetic greed:
the guy is either an idiot, lowering profit for no reason
or he's trying to undercut so much that I won't follow him which won't happen because the amount he just undercut with is pathetic which means I'll still follow him and that he just lowered profit for no reason which means that he's also a greedy idiot.
Idiot, or greedy idiot. Your pick.
If he wants to undercut he should either do the .01 or he's going to have to do it properly, like at least 30% of the items price.
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Karille
Gallente
Lordless
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Posted - 2008.11.18 09:51:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Emi Raaf
Edited by: Emi Raaf on 18/11/2008 08:37:30
Usually, it's annoying while selling at 300k forexample, and someone lowers the price by 1k instead of .01.
I mean It's just pathetic greed:
the guy is either an idiot, lowering profit for no reason
or he's trying to undercut so much that I won't follow him which won't happen because the amount he just undercut with is pathetic which means I'll still follow him and that he just lowered profit for no reason which means that he's also a greedy idiot.
Idiot, or greedy idiot. Your pick.
If he wants to undercut he should either do the .01 or he's going to have to do it properly, like at least 30% of the items price.
Or they're trying to annoy you. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
 |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 11:41:00 -
[63]
Quote:
Btw, ruining markets is awesome fun. Sometimes I do it just for the hell of it
Zero-risk PVP. 
|
Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 18:27:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 18/11/2008 18:35:40
Originally by: Karille
Originally by: Emi Raaf
Edited by: Emi Raaf on 18/11/2008 08:37:30
Usually, it's annoying while selling at 300k forexample, and someone lowers the price by 1k instead of .01.
I mean It's just pathetic greed:
the guy is either an idiot, lowering profit for no reason
or he's trying to undercut so much that I won't follow him which won't happen because the amount he just undercut with is pathetic which means I'll still follow him and that he just lowered profit for no reason which means that he's also a greedy idiot.
Idiot, or greedy idiot. Your pick.
If he wants to undercut he should either do the .01 or he's going to have to do it properly, like at least 30% of the items price.
Or they're trying to annoy you. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
You put @ 300k. Let's say the margin is 10%, so 30k (270k is the production price, all skills 5).
He puts at say 299k
You puts at 298k99999 after a thinking.
He puts at 297k cause he can't count.
You puts at 297k99999 after another thinking.
...
He puts at 275k, which might be < at your production price so you or anyone who have a production price > 275k buy him to remove this guy from your market.
He won 5k/u, you lost a market, then he switch his product.
You just got r@ped.
There's always a reason. That is not normal people don't think about things like this. Multiply this by 100 products, here's the reason. He might make 100 ridiculous margin but he sells, you don't. |
Soporo
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 18:50:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 18/11/2008 02:00:49
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 18/11/2008 01:58:59
Quote:
What? That makes no sense at all.
I'm talking about seeing the listed item in the market window, filtering by price, selecting what I wish to buy at what price, buying it, and seeing that fellows stock go down by one.
There's a hundred and one reasons (including those filters) why what you're percieving may or may not be happening. Regardless, someone saying things like this appears in MD like clockwork, and as always, they aren't telling the story correct (missing details), or they are just plain wrong.
As I said, go to Jita, list tritanium, right click the cheapest sell order *available in that station*, buy it and watch it go down.
Then right click one of the more expensive trit items, buy it, and watch the cheapest order *available in that station* go down.
When you hit that buy button, you aren't taking it away from that particular seller, you're placing a buy order for an item at that particular price, then the market matches your order against the cheapest available order. YOU CANNOT SELECTIVELY BUY FROM PEOPLE OFF THE MARKET. The only way you can do that is if the sell order isn't in range of your buy order.
If that's not proof enough, go to Jita 4-4 and, to use your words, 'Buy one unit of trit from each seller in Jita 4-4', then check your market transaction logs and be surprised that you've purchased one unit of trit off the same person hundreds of times. Wow,,, they must be the only person selling trit in Jita 4-4 
 Well. Well, I learn something new everyday, thanks. I guess...
 |
Makhan
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Posted - 2008.11.18 23:24:00 -
[66]
I wasn't going to bump this thread again but Jesus Christ:
(100m sell orders mine)
 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
WHO DOES THIS?
I bloody sold one of the items for 100m today too, so it's not like the product is moving any faster. |
Andrea Erlang
Caldari
Erlang Biolabs
|
Posted - 2008.11.18 23:49:00 -
[67]
buy up stock, sell, profit? |
Makhan
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 00:00:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Andrea Erlang
buy up stock, sell, profit?
Can't, too few capital on hand, put all of it in capital component blueprints recently :(. |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 01:44:00 -
[69]
Quote:
WHO DOES THIS?
Nom nom nom, sweet sweet tears.
Just a shame you're product is no longer moving so you can't make capital and take advantage of it hey?
Also
Quote:
or he's trying to undercut so much that I won't follow him which won't happen because the amount he just undercut with is pathetic which means I'll still follow him and that I just lowered my profit for no reason which means that I'm also a greedy idiot.
Fixed that for you. AND.
Quote:
If he wants to undercut he should either do the .01 or he's going to have to do it properly, like at least 30% of the items price.
Why undercut at 30% if he knows you're not going to follow the price down like the stupid lemming that you are. |
Makhan
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 02:09:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Makhan on 19/11/2008 02:09:46
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote:
WHO DOES THIS?
Nom nom nom, sweet sweet tears.
Just a shame you're product is no longer moving so you can't make capital and take advantage of it hey?
My am product is moving just fine, at the usual rate for the less-popular T2 good. Joke's on the chumps that undercutted me though. I undercutted the first guy by .01 isk, and I have full intention of checking my prices every 4 hours to make sure he doesn't move any before I do, and the second guy I just kept my price +5m his because he was in a non hub system of the region and I was in the hub. (people pay for convenience after all, if it's not a huge difference). |
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.11.19 02:19:00 -
[71]
Quote:
My am product is moving just fine, at the usual rate for the less-popular T2 good. Joke's on the chumps that undercutted me though. I undercutted the first guy by .01 isk, and I have full intention of checking my prices every 4 hours to make sure he doesn't move any before I do, and the second guy I just kept my price +5m his because he was in a non hub system of the region and I was in the hub. (people pay for convenience after all, if it's not a huge difference).
Is the joke really on them? As far as I can tell, this was the situation.
You had a product at 100 million isk.
Someone listed at 70 million isk.
"why oh why do people sacrifice their profit margins like this, he's knocked away 30 million on his profit margin!" you say as you proceed to knock 30 million off your own profit margin
And the other order? Sure, 5 mil above his, he's still caused you to sacrifice 10 million ISK in your profit margin.
Congratulations, on a gross stock value of 200 million someone has successfully goaded you into sacrificing 40 million (20%!) of your gross stock value. I don't even want to go near how much of your *profit* margin that is.
Good move genius |
Makhan
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 02:29:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Makhan on 19/11/2008 02:33:37
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote:
My am product is moving just fine, at the usual rate for the less-popular T2 good. Joke's on the chumps that undercutted me though. I undercutted the first guy by .01 isk, and I have full intention of checking my prices every 4 hours to make sure he doesn't move any before I do, and the second guy I just kept my price +5m his because he was in a non hub system of the region and I was in the hub. (people pay for convenience after all, if it's not a huge difference).
Is the joke really on them? As far as I can tell, this was the situation.
You had a product at 100 million isk.
Someone listed at 70 million isk.
"why oh why do people sacrifice their profit margins like this, he's knocked away 30 million on his profit margin!" you say as you proceed to knock 30 million off your own profit margin
You must have absolutely no idea how the market works if you think I can afford to keep my price artificial high when killjoys flood the market. My goods will simply not sell because of the way the market works unless I am the lowest order in the stations Quote:
And the other order? Sure, 5 mil above his, he's still caused you to sacrifice 10 million ISK in your profit margin.
So what's your point? You make it sound like he did it on purpose or for some reason other than just being an idiot selling ships randomly and cheaper in hopes they will sell faster.
Quote:
Congratulations, on a gross stock value of 200 million someone has successfully goaded you into sacrificing 40 million (20%!) of your gross stock value. I don't even want to go near how much of your *profit* margin that is.
Good move genius
You don't get it. If I didn't lower my prices, the stuff would. not. sell. You can fool some people some of the time, but if people have more options or aren't ignorant of other prices in other regions you're going to have to reduce your prices to be more in-line with other regions.
My complaint is that people destroy the value of their own sales as well as everybody's sales when they sell recklessly, and that is the point of this thread. What I have to do to sell is inconsequential, as I am following proper sales methods. My only regret is that I lack the capital to buy all of these ships selling at improper prices, and sell them at a right proper price which is largely my fault for not keeping suitable capital.
Also for reference the item's build price is about 25m. |
MenanceWhite
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.11.19 07:08:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
post
Hey cool post bro, but do you really think that many people invest in things with 10% profit margin? |
Ambo
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 08:47:00 -
[74]
This thread is both funny and tragic. Bottom line, I'll play however I want to. If that happens to make other people feel like they're losing out then so much the better. 
--------------------------------------
Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA |
Tippia
Caldari
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 09:01:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Makhan
My complaint is that people destroy the value of their own sales as well as everybody's sales when they sell recklessly, and that is the point of this thread.
And that point completely disregards the opposite view: that sometimes the point of going to market isn't to maximise profit, but to destroy value.
Your complaint about others engaging you in market PvP is duly noted and ignored. 
No sig for me, thankyouverymuch. |
Augeas
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 09:35:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Makhan
My complaint is that people destroy the value of their own sales as well as everybody's sales when they sell recklessly, and that is the point of this thread.
And that point completely disregards the opposite view: that sometimes the point of going to market isn't to maximise profit, but to destroy value.
Your complaint about others engaging you in market PvP is duly noted and ignored.
If an instant-undercutter won't let me make sales and profit, why should I let him do so?
|
Fink Angel
Caldari
The Merry Men
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 11:41:00 -
[77]
If anyone doubts the intelligence of the market, the prices for +4 Charisma implants are CHEAPER than +3 Charisma implants by some margin, yet the +3's still sell!
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 12:44:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote:
Btw, ruining markets is awesome fun. Sometimes I do it just for the hell of it
Zero-risk PVP.
Mass griefing through a spreadsheet-like interface, epic win 
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Makhan
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 12:59:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Makhan on 19/11/2008 12:59:24
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Makhan
My complaint is that people destroy the value of their own sales as well as everybody's sales when they sell recklessly, and that is the point of this thread.
And that point completely disregards the opposite view: that sometimes the point of going to market isn't to maximise profit, but to destroy value.
Your complaint about others engaging you in market PvP is duly noted and ignored.
I would no more call idiots flailing their arms and selling at the exact market average PvP than I would call a cat a dog. They aren't "engaging" me in market PvP, they are selling randomly and idiotically based on false logic. For big ticket things like ships, people will *not* buy more if the price is lower. The only time this is true is when it's an item you need a great deal of, like components or mining crystals. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 13:08:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Makhan
For big ticket things like ships, people will *not* buy more if the price is lower. The only time this is true is when it's an item you need a great deal of, like components or mining crystals.
I buy ships in bulk, they get spent just like ammo and other consumables.
|
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Makhan
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 13:12:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Makhan
For big ticket things like ships, people will *not* buy more if the price is lower. The only time this is true is when it's an item you need a great deal of, like components or mining crystals.
I buy ships in bulk, they get spent just like ammo and other consumables.
Well then congrats you're an outlier. |
Confuzer
Volition Cult
The Volition Cult
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 13:28:00 -
[82]
Say a product sells for 1 mil, I bought it at 200k.
Don't want to undercut all the time, don't have time for it, and still want profit. What do you do?
You put the item for 750k on market. Most people will not undercut you, but the ones who do get so quickly bought your turn will come instead of NEVER if you play the 0.01 game not frequently enough.
-----------------
Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
Tippia
Caldari
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 13:38:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Tippia on 19/11/2008 13:39:31
Originally by: Makhan
Originally by: Cpt Branko
I buy ships in bulk, they get spent just like ammo and other consumables.
Well then congrats you're an outlier.
Not really.
Originally by: Makhan
Myself and one or more other makers of the item had created an equality in pricing over the region at a good selling price, which was shattered.
This isn't market PvP, this is random acts of senseless violence against prices.
You say this as if it was a bad thing… |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 13:40:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Pohbis on 19/11/2008 13:42:22
You are playing an MMO as a hobby. Do you:
A) Not care about what the "true cost" or "oppotunity cost" of an item is, you had fun building it.
B) Not care that people claim your self-mined minerals aren't "free" since you enjoyed the quiet buzz of mining lasers, and couldn't do the other thing you enjoy; building stuff, had you sold the minerals at market value which every screams you should have doen instead.
C) Play a game and don't care about "price elasticity" and get annoyed at people playing the "undercut .01 ISK"-game and just sell at whatever cost will sell fast.
( the answer is all of the above for some people, accept it)
|
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 14:21:00 -
[85]
Quote:
This isn't market PvP, this is random acts of senseless violence against prices. You should have to take an intelligence test before you sell on the market.
As I said before, 0.01 undercutter tears, nom nom nom.
All I'm getting from you is that you don't like competition. Go cry me a river.
Oh yeah,,
Quote:
You must have absolutely no idea how the market works if you think I can afford to keep my price artificial high when killjoys flood the market. My goods will simply not sell because of the way the market works unless I am the lowest order in the stations
Quote:
So what's your point? You make it sound like he did it on purpose or for some reason other than just being an idiot selling ships randomly and cheaper in hopes they will sell faster.
I actually can't believe you put these sentences after each other and didn't click.
In the second you say "You make it sound like he did it on purpose or for some reason other than just being an idiot "
Yet in the first sentence you say "My goods will simply not sell because of the way the market works unless I am the lowest order in the stations"
Let me put it into lay terms for you.
Your goal: Make sales.
If you're the lowest bidder, YOU WIN!
If you're not, YOU LOSE.
Someone on the other end selling that item for, in your most recent example, 15 million less, provided he stays in that position, is the winner. Sure, you could undercut him. But for everyone who undercuts him, he wants to make sure they bleed good and proper.
And my word, you're bleeding some tears good and proper in this thread. And looking at those shots you've posted, I bet it's the same guy, and if he's seeing this he'll be laughing away.
But take a look at this, you're actually getting frustrated about this You're playing straight into this guys hand. You can't stand losing so much profit in such a slow moving area. Eventually he's hoping you'll get so sick of this you move into a new region. And when you do he'll have the whole place to himself, again.
Improve Market Competition! |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 14:38:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Makhan
This idiot undercut down to the exact market average, which consequentially was hardly a few mill over the build price. Myself and one or more other makers of the item had created an equality in pricing over the region at a good selling price, which was shattered.
This isn't market PvP, this is random acts of senseless violence against prices. You should have to take an intelligence test before you sell on the market.
Buy out and restore prices to 140M or stfu and bow to 5% profit margin overlords
|
Makhan
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 14:40:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
As I said before, 0.01 undercutter tears, nom nom nom.
hurf durf I use catchphrase.
Quote:
All I'm getting from you is that you don't like competition. Go cry me a river.
Intelligent competition is how the market works, I do not fear competition, I merely dislike unintelligent competition.
Quote:
I actually can't believe you put these sentences after each other and didn't click.
In the second you say "You make it sound like he did it on purpose or for some reason other than just being an idiot "
Yet in the first sentence you say "My goods will simply not sell because of the way the market works unless I am the lowest order in the stations"
Let me put it into lay terms for you.
Your goal: Make sales.
If you're the lowest bidder, YOU WIN!
If you're not, YOU LOSE.
I really don't see what you're trying to say. I'm not trying to contest the fact that the lowest sell price will be bought, and it is of paramount importance, I'm saying that people using the "scorched earth" method shoot themselves in the foot and ruin the market at large.
Quote:
Someone on the other end selling that item for, in your most recent example, 15 million less, provided he stays in that position, is the winner. Sure, you could undercut him. But for everyone who undercuts him, he wants to make sure they bleed good and proper.
You're really, REALLY overestimating his intelligence, he sold at the market average, which is barely 5 million profit on a ship that costs around 120m to produce. If he had just sold at a proper price he wouldn't have driven the market down for everybody.
His lower price will not:
1. Cause people to buy faster
2. Do anything other than drive the sale price down
Quote:
And my word, you're bleeding some tears good and proper in this thread. And looking at those shots you've posted, I bet it's the same guy, and if he's seeing this he'll be laughing away.
You put way, way too much stock into this. This is not some vast conspiracy, there is only some chump trying to get his stock out at a sub-par price.
Quote:
But take a look at this, you're actually getting frustrated about this You're playing straight into this guys hand. You can't stand losing so much profit in such a slow moving area. Eventually he's hoping you'll get so sick of this you move into a new region. And when you do he'll have the whole place to himself, again.
I haven't moved from this space since I started the game in 2005, and I don't plan to now. While it pains me to see people selling at subpar prices for what the market could be, the prices are still way better than virtually any other region for the product, it's the difference between making 200% profit and 300% profit on the first example item (the other more recent example I posted is hardly 20% profit but oh well).
A few guys selling ships at sub par prices is not some vast price white-knighting conspiracy, it is merely a shame. Yes, I am angry at this, I have every right to be. I need isk badly at the present time, and in low-volume sales like the T2 I sell, it's a tricky market.
Nobody goes around looking for markets with artificially high prices and drops a sale order for 500' in the middle of it all while gleefully shouting "Ha Ha! I got you now you profiteering scum!". There is no emotional investment, there is only profit motive, and this profit motive, coupled with what people take from real world examples, can lead to unintelligent selling behavior, which is, as I have said, a small tragedy for every seller involved. |
Makhan
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 14:41:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Makhan
This idiot undercut down to the exact market average, which consequentially was hardly a few mill over the build price. Myself and one or more other makers of the item had created an equality in pricing over the region at a good selling price, which was shattered.
This isn't market PvP, this is random acts of senseless violence against prices. You should have to take an intelligence test before you sell on the market.
Buy out and restore prices to 140M or stfu and bow to 5% profit margin overlords
I would but I blew all my isk recently on capital component BPOs. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 14:46:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Makhan
Nobody goes around looking for markets with artificially high prices and drops a sale order for 500' in the middle of it all while gleefully shouting "Ha Ha! I got you now you profiteering scum!"
I actually did, it's awesome fun, and I do make a evil laugh when I'm about to ruin some market with a high buy/sell spread, because all the sellers are 0.01 isk undercutting sheep and I only need to start the stampedo downwards
|
Misina Arlath
Amarr
|
Posted - 2008.11.19 14:58:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Misina Arlath on 19/11/2008 15:01:09
Originally by: Makhan
You have a hold full of goods, you encounter a busy market with no orders
Do you:
A. Sell at the regional average
B. Sell at the average price around the regions
C. Jack the price up to as high as the market will bear
(Hint: the answer is C).
You overprice the item of course, but it's any worthwhile cash involved you'll monitor the market to readjust price once other orders are placed.
Quote:
You are undercutted by .01 isk.
Do you:
A. Undercut him by .01 isk in turn
B. flail your arms madly undercutting by a stupid 1000+ isk or 10,000+ isk
C. Ragequit the market
D. undercut by 50% of the profit or more
(Answer is A, B is wasteful and lowers the price, D he would just undercut you again if there was profit at all, and you've ruined the market anyway for everybody, congratulations.)
This depends on the amount of orders on the market for the specific item. If there are few orders, or even just yours and his, then you raise your price to the double, or more. This quite often lures the other seller to raise his price up just below yours, at which point you can start to undercut him until he gets fed up or until you're back down to your original price.
If he doesn't raise his price, then hey, not much you can do anyways, so just leave your price up high, take it off the market and stockpile it, or export it to a different region with other competitors.
Quote:
You encounter a market with one sell order, at a price that you know is 3x the build cost of the item.
Do you:
A. Undercut to what the price is in other regions
B. Undercut by .01 isk
C. Buy the product so you can see who sold it so you can rail on them for being unethical
(Answer is B).
The answer is not B. The answer is, you buy his order, then resell it for x4 the build cost. That way you get profit on your own goods as well as a profit from the goods the other guy sold.
This is called monopoly and controlling the price. Of course, there is a risk that he might then put up new orders, but hey, who said playing the market is risk-free?
Quote:
The market for your products is getting worse, so you decide to mine all the needed minerals to make all the minerals free in your build cost.
You are:
A. Dumb
B. Misinformed
C. Clueless
D. All of the above
(D)
Option E. is needed here...
E. You don't have a miner friend or a corp that mines.
Get some contacts, it's called an MMO for a reason.
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"Every complex problem has a solution which is easy, neat and wrong!" |
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