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JafoPBCFR
One Stop Mining Shop
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:10:00 -
[1]
As title says I havent had a chance to test. Anyone have any issues or changes in there setup yet?
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Tac Ginaz
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.13 16:51:00 -
[2]
Yes. SB's suck worse now.
To give you an idea, I could single-shot a 0.0 rat frigate before.. now it takes 2 volleys.
Tested on pvp .. on frigates I do 20% less damage. On cruisers it does about the same. BC and BS sized targets the damage is unchanged.
Bombs were reduced in price however they are still idiotically expensive to use considering the only thing they can kill are frigates stupid enough to let the bomb hit them..and drones.
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Citadel Torpedoes for Stealth Bombers! Sign Petition |
JafoPBCFR
One Stop Mining Shop
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Posted - 2008.11.13 18:19:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Tac Ginaz Yes. SB's suck worse now.
To give you an idea, I could single-shot a 0.0 rat frigate before.. now it takes 2 volleys.
Tested on pvp .. on frigates I do 20% less damage. On cruisers it does about the same. BC and BS sized targets the damage is unchanged.
Bombs were reduced in price however they are still idiotically expensive to use considering the only thing they can kill are frigates stupid enough to let the bomb hit them..and drones.
Hmm ok I knew the Bombs were getting 1 more to the production. Dont see price dropping that much from that.
Have ya changed your setup at all. i was looking at maybe adding the TP back on it like we used to.
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StuckNJita
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Posted - 2008.11.13 19:15:00 -
[4]
Originally by: JafoPBCFR Anyone have any issues or changes in there setup yet?
Nope! Mine still sits in the hanger unfitted like it did before.
------------------ Yes, the early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.. |
Omarvelous
Caldari Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.11.13 19:30:00 -
[5]
Web your target, and scram them to turn off their mwd. Effective anti-AF ship in a gang.
If you dont slow down your target then yes this ship will suck. If you slow it down, then it will nullify any sig tanking your target is trying to do.
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LoKesh
Amarr InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.11.13 20:17:00 -
[6]
Has anyone actually experimented with bombers in QR? The inborn bonus to explosion radius used to be fairly worthless as small ships could speed tank your missiles. However, with the new forumla the adjusted explosion radius on the cruises may actually mean you're better off.
Your explosion radius on a cruise missile fired from a bomber is still going to be about 40 (my skills). That means any cruiser sized target is going to take alot of damage unless they're moving close to 1000km/sec WITHOUT an MWD. MWDing frigates will get hit hard - intys might be the only fast moving small ship that won't take alot of damage (due to the new MWD bonus), but pre-patch you'd never hurt an inty at speed.
It's likely a buff.
xFoundation, xVC, xRISE Proudly serving Skunk-Works |
McGaja
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Posted - 2008.11.13 20:18:00 -
[7]
Well i dont know what tests you preformed but I did some myself
I remind you that im fairly new to eve so my skills arent that high... all i can do is compare before patch, and after patch...
1st cruise missiles vs RAT drone BS, cruise dmg on hull before patch, AVG 300, cruise dmg on Hull after patch AVG 160... this is almost a 50% reduction and on a Batleship... where no changes should be felt...
next i ask a friend to board his cruiser head to a planet and start the tests...
Heavy missile (all EM missiles and on shields)
DM of heavy missile on cruiser... AVG 95
DMG of cruise missile (also EM) on cruiser... AVG 95.
both these tests where preformed with a cruiser target STOPED (velocity = 0m/s).
this represents a major nerf to cruise missiles and one that was not fully explained by the patch notes...
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Skyr
Black Plague.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 20:35:00 -
[8]
Originally by: McGaja Well i dont know what tests you preformed but I did some myself
I remind you that im fairly new to eve so my skills arent that high... all i can do is compare before patch, and after patch...
1st cruise missiles vs RAT drone BS, cruise dmg on hull before patch, AVG 300, cruise dmg on Hull after patch AVG 160... this is almost a 50% reduction and on a Batleship... where no changes should be felt...
next i ask a friend to board his cruiser head to a planet and start the tests...
Heavy missile (all EM missiles and on shields)
DM of heavy missile on cruiser... AVG 95
DMG of cruise missile (also EM) on cruiser... AVG 95.
both these tests where preformed with a cruiser target STOPED (velocity = 0m/s).
this represents a major nerf to cruise missiles and one that was not fully explained by the patch notes...
Dude, did you use Stealth Bomber for that cruise run? Doesn't sound like it.
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Stele Toque
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.13 22:20:00 -
[9]
i'm not really sure what everyone is harping about because I'm able to pop most rat frigates with one missle. the only ones i couldn't are the kessies and it still takes two missles to pop them. I'm not sure what your particulars are, but here's how i'm setup.
i'm using standard cruise missiles. all missile skills are at level 4. The manti has a calefaction rig and a ballistic control system 2 in the lows.
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.11.13 22:30:00 -
[10]
I've done some simple tests, and my conclusion is that Stealth Bombers have been crippled. They used to be excellent against frigates and cruisers and could contribute against battleships. Now:
* Against a frigate moving at unboosted full speed (no speed mods/rigs, no AB, no MWD), a bomber loses about 2/3 of the damage it had against the same target stationary. * Against a frigate moving at full speed with an AB (no speed mods/rigs), a bomber loses about 6/7 of the damage it had against the same target stationary. * Even a non-nanoed T1 cruiser with an AB gets a modest reduction in damage taken from a bomber. * Twin target painters helped, but were not enough to provide reasonable dps against the AB frigate.
I'm not optimistic about the use of a bomber at this point. Perhaps they will gain a new role with the switch to torps mentioned by the devs as a possibility, but it's not looking good for them right now.
-- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
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RedSplat
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2008.11.13 22:42:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Stele Toque i'm not really sure what everyone is harping about because I'm able to pop most rat frigates with one missle. the only ones i couldn't are the kessies and it still takes two missles to pop them. I'm not sure what your particulars are, but here's how i'm setup.
i'm using standard cruise missiles. all missile skills are at level 4. The manti has a calefaction rig and a ballistic control system 2 in the lows.
Rats aren't other players. Yes, the difference is huge.
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Tac Ginaz
Gallente Coalition of Nations
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Posted - 2008.11.13 22:45:00 -
[12]
plus, I think he 'tested' that in 1.0 space or something. weaker rats. 0.0 rats survive the volley :( -------------------------------------------------
Citadel Torpedoes for Stealth Bombers! Sign Petition |
Hexhead
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:02:00 -
[13]
Before the patch I had a set up which meant that if the Crow came into web range I could instapop him. Now all I get is about 1/3rd shield 8(
I guess now the SB will be staying in the hanger
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Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:29:00 -
[14]
Well, here's to popping Crows in a Purifier. Cheers, people. It was fun while it lasted.
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McGaja
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Posted - 2008.11.14 15:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Skyr
Originally by: McGaja Well i dont know what tests you preformed but I did some myself
I remind you that im fairly new to eve so my skills arent that high... all i can do is compare before patch, and after patch...
1st cruise missiles vs RAT drone BS, cruise dmg on hull before patch, AVG 300, cruise dmg on Hull after patch AVG 160... this is almost a 50% reduction and on a Batleship... where no changes should be felt...
next i ask a friend to board his cruiser head to a planet and start the tests...
Heavy missile (all EM missiles and on shields)
DM of heavy missile on cruiser... AVG 95
DMG of cruise missile (also EM) on cruiser... AVG 95.
both these tests where preformed with a cruiser target STOPED (velocity = 0m/s).
this represents a major nerf to cruise missiles and one that was not fully explained by the patch notes...
Dude, did you use Stealth Bomber for that cruise run? Doesn't sound like it.
You're right I was not using my SB at the time, this was done with a typhoon :) but the point remains... its a huge nerf.
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Omarvelous
Caldari Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.11.17 15:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: McGaja
Originally by: Skyr
Originally by: McGaja Well i dont know what tests you preformed but I did some myself
I remind you that im fairly new to eve so my skills arent that high... all i can do is compare before patch, and after patch...
1st cruise missiles vs RAT drone BS, cruise dmg on hull before patch, AVG 300, cruise dmg on Hull after patch AVG 160... this is almost a 50% reduction and on a Batleship... where no changes should be felt...
next i ask a friend to board his cruiser head to a planet and start the tests...
Heavy missile (all EM missiles and on shields)
DM of heavy missile on cruiser... AVG 95
DMG of cruise missile (also EM) on cruiser... AVG 95.
both these tests where preformed with a cruiser target STOPED (velocity = 0m/s).
this represents a major nerf to cruise missiles and one that was not fully explained by the patch notes...
Dude, did you use Stealth Bomber for that cruise run? Doesn't sound like it.
You're right I was not using my SB at the time, this was done with a typhoon :) but the point remains... its a huge nerf.
<sigh> Look at the stealth bomber's signature radius bonus. You cannot make a statement about a stealth bomber's cruise missiles while using a battleship to shoot the cruise missles.
A target painter in 99% of the time NOT provide ANY damage bonus to a stealth bomber's cruise missiles. You have to have the target WEBBED and SCRAMMED (no mwd) to get the damage potential.
Stealth bombers are feeling the burn because cruise missile explosino velocity has been crippled - and stealth bombers now really rely on some means of making their target essentially stationary to do any kind of meaningful damage.
That said - popping cyno alts at POSes is still great fun. |
Sean Faust
Gallente Point of No Return Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.17 15:16:00 -
[17]
SBs are a very pointed ship meant to be used in very specific gang setups. If you choose to try to use them for something other than their intended role, then yes, you will see them fail at it. When fitted with 3x cruiser launchers, firing upon a frigate-sized target, the target now needs to be painted in order to get optimum damage. This is the way it is now for EVERYONE USING MISSILES when firing upon small(er) targets. SBs are no exception. |
Omarvelous
Caldari Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.11.17 15:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sean Faust SBs are a very pointed ship meant to be used in very specific gang setups. If you choose to try to use them for something other than their intended role, then yes, you will see them fail at it. When fitted with 3x cruiser launchers, firing upon a frigate-sized target, the target now needs to be painted in order to get optimum damage. This is the way it is now for EVERYONE USING MISSILES when firing upon small(er) targets. SBs are no exception.
Manticore:
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise Missile damage and -16.66% reduction in Explosion Radius of Cruise Missiles per level.
I bolded the part everyone seems to be missing.
I get an explosion radius of 38m. Not too many ships have a sig radius smaller than that where a target painter will provide a meaningful boost.
Explosion SPEED not RADIUS is whats killing a stealth bomber's cruise missiles.
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Neyro7830
Gallente Stormfront A.W. Stormfront J.U.N.T.A.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 16:01:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: Sean Faust SBs are a very pointed ship meant to be used in very specific gang setups. If you choose to try to use them for something other than their intended role, then yes, you will see them fail at it. When fitted with 3x cruiser launchers, firing upon a frigate-sized target, the target now needs to be painted in order to get optimum damage. This is the way it is now for EVERYONE USING MISSILES when firing upon small(er) targets. SBs are no exception.
Manticore:
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise Missile damage and -16.66% reduction in Explosion Radius of Cruise Missiles per level.
I bolded the part everyone seems to be missing.
I get an explosion radius of 38m. Not too many ships have a sig radius smaller than that where a target painter will provide a meaningful boost.
Explosion SPEED not RADIUS is whats killing a stealth bomber's cruise missiles.
Don't they have rigs that fix that? ___ I cannot be held responsible for the above post, because apparently,my cat has learned to type. :3 |
Omarvelous
Caldari Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.11.17 16:05:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Neyro7830
Originally by: Omarvelous
Originally by: Sean Faust SBs are a very pointed ship meant to be used in very specific gang setups. If you choose to try to use them for something other than their intended role, then yes, you will see them fail at it. When fitted with 3x cruiser launchers, firing upon a frigate-sized target, the target now needs to be painted in order to get optimum damage. This is the way it is now for EVERYONE USING MISSILES when firing upon small(er) targets. SBs are no exception.
Manticore:
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise Missile damage and -16.66% reduction in Explosion Radius of Cruise Missiles per level.
I bolded the part everyone seems to be missing.
I get an explosion radius of 38m. Not too many ships have a sig radius smaller than that where a target painter will provide a meaningful boost.
Explosion SPEED not RADIUS is whats killing a stealth bomber's cruise missiles.
Don't they have rigs that fix that?
Good point, I haven't tested the flare catalysts on the Manti yet. I've been using missile velocity rigs for range and calefaction for damage so far. If I dont have a rapier in gang - the flare rigs may be usefull...
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Neyro7830
Gallente Stormfront A.W. Stormfront J.U.N.T.A.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 16:09:00 -
[21]
I have a flare and a calefaction on my SB, I do ok, I can 2 salvo a cruiser... >_> |
Kurull Skullsplitter
Minmatar Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.17 17:07:00 -
[22]
Originally by: LoKesh Has anyone actually experimented with bombers in QR? The inborn bonus to explosion radius used to be fairly worthless as small ships could speed tank your missiles. However, with the new forumla the adjusted explosion radius on the cruises may actually mean you're better off.
Your explosion radius on a cruise missile fired from a bomber is still going to be about 40 (my skills). That means any cruiser sized target is going to take alot of damage unless they're moving close to 1000km/sec WITHOUT an MWD. MWDing frigates will get hit hard - intys might be the only fast moving small ship that won't take alot of damage (due to the new MWD bonus), but pre-patch you'd never hurt an inty at speed.
It's likely a buff.
yeah data and discussion here |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 17:11:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/11/2008 17:11:33
Originally by: Neyro7830 I have a flare and a calefaction on my SB, I do ok, I can 2 salvo a cruiser... >_>
Unfitted cruiser. Or maybe a NPC one.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.11.17 19:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Omarvelous Web your target, and scram them to turn off their mwd. Effective anti-AF ship in a gang.
If you dont slow down your target then yes this ship will suck. If you slow it down, then it will nullify any sig tanking your target is trying to do.
Let's be fair - other than range of the weapon system what exactly makes the SB better suited to anti AF duties than a simple destroyer (which costs about 1/10 what a SB costs once you include fittings)? I mean, if the target is already being well tackled why bring the frail SB to the fight for this one duty when another ship will generally perform better?
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baltec1
R.U.S.T. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 19:28:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/11/2008 17:11:33
Originally by: Neyro7830 I have a flare and a calefaction on my SB, I do ok, I can 2 salvo a cruiser... >_>
Unfitted cruiser. Or maybe a NPC one.
If you had seen some of the fittings out there you would undistand
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Imaos
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Posted - 2008.11.18 08:49:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: Omarvelous Web your target, and scram them to turn off their mwd. Effective anti-AF ship in a gang.
If you dont slow down your target then yes this ship will suck. If you slow it down, then it will nullify any sig tanking your target is trying to do.
Let's be fair - other than range of the weapon system what exactly makes the SB better suited to anti AF duties than a simple destroyer (which costs about 1/10 what a SB costs once you include fittings)? I mean, if the target is already being well tackled why bring the frail SB to the fight for this one duty when another ship will generally perform better?
Hm. If I include fittings I pay more for a destroyer than a stealth bomber. Moreso if no cloak is used.
Difference is destroyer blew up on entering the battlefield whereas SB cloaked up after warp in and started to move. Also SBs are best used in a group for nice combined alpha to hinder ships from fleeing.
Imaos |
Phoenix Torp
Caldari Kingmakers
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Posted - 2008.11.18 10:54:00 -
[27]
Originally by: McGaja
this represents a major nerf to cruise missiles and one that was not fully explained by the patch notes...
They explained it. http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/patchnotes.asp All missile types have been balanced to ensure that oversized missiles do not have too much of an effect on smaller ships. As before, ships are still protected from larger missiles by their signature radius. When going sufficiently fast, the damage taken from missiles is reduced by the signature radius to speed ratio, rather than just speed. Going faster or reducing the signature radius will reduce missile damage further. For a ship with the same signature radius as the missile's explosion radius, the missile's explosion velocity indicates the speed at which the missile damage starts to get reduced. The new formula allows for speed tanking using afterburners. In fact, afterburners will in general be more effective than micro warp drive for speed tanking missiles.
I do missions. Before the patch: - Guristas Webifier / Sansha's Demon: 10-12 missiles in my T2 cruise launcher. - Guristas Kyokukan / Sansha's Berserker: 8-10 missiles. Currently: - Webi/Demon: I can't destroy them. Simple they repair more than I hit them. I'm seeking for hybrid turrets for fit in the last two high-slots of the Raven... - Kyokukan / Berserker: 20 missiles average measure.
Yes, I know isn't a SB, but it's a huge nerf. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.18 12:03:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Omarvelous [ Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise Missile damage and -16.66% reduction in Explosion Radius of Cruise Missiles per level.
I bolded the part everyone seems to be missing.
I get an explosion radius of 38m. Not too many ships have a sig radius smaller than that where a target painter will provide a meaningful boost.
Explosion SPEED not RADIUS is whats killing a stealth bomber's cruise missiles.
No.
The missile damage formula has changed. A painter will always give you a damage boost in a situation where you aren't doing full damage. Explosion velocity is a less important issue now - which is why, for guided missiles, Rigour rigs are always better than Flare rigs.
With the new missile formula, a SB can actually hit a MWDing frigate/interceptor for meaningful damage. The problem is that it's very hard to get sufficient damage to 1-volley a moving target - and a SB that can't 1-volley its target is, well, not that useful... |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.18 12:07:00 -
[29]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/11/2008 17:11:33
Originally by: Neyro7830 I have a flare and a calefaction on my SB, I do ok, I can 2 salvo a cruiser... >_>
Unfitted cruiser. Or maybe a NPC one.
If you had seen some of the fittings out there you would undistand
You admittedly have a point there, I'm always shocked when I 2-3 volley a cruiser in the 650mm artycane - which has roughly the equivalent alpha to a SB under 20km ranges. That sort of thing shouldn't happen
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Adaera
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Posted - 2008.11.18 12:27:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Adaera on 18/11/2008 12:27:35 I will put it this way. Pre-QR, I could fairly easily hit 600-700 per missile on a frigate. Now I hit about 137... on a base speed Ibis - and you don't even want to know what I was getting vs my friends rifter. It's so easy to outrun the damage it's not even funny.
Edit: oh and I tried altering my setup to include 2 TPs; but that has next to no effect. |
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