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Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:39:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Klyde Having been here for a little time i noticed caldari pilots whining about missles does nothing, if you want to use missles you have to adapt to the new systems, thats all there is to it, target painters, drones etc... I will not say i am happy with all the changes but what can ya do? Train more and move along, missles will still be your friends
Well, I'm one of < 6 month raven pilots you mention; I partly agree and partly not. I am actually already trained for target painters, and have some fitted; they seem more useful now, but they sucked before the patch so you can't blame a lot of ppl for not bothering.
Meantime, the 'guided missile precision' skill is now a complete waste of time (rather like target painting used to be, maybe) and I'm not too sure about 'target navigation prediction' either. I know turret users have their own problems; but people are told to specialize in Eve, and quite a lot decided to specialize in missiles, drones and shields - so the typical Raven pilot has seen a biggish nerf to both their cruise missiles and their medium drones, as well to their ship speed, which was hardly zippy to begin with.
This isn't a moan, but I'm unimpressed by a lot of the 'u Raven pilots had it easy' comments. To be effective in PvE (read: to make any serious money without mining) you needed 3 Ballistic Control Systems in the lows, just as turret users need their damage mods. Upside was that missile users don't care about tracking disruptors (yay) downside was defender missiles, slowish rates of fire, and most of all the fact that missile damage isn't instant like other kinds. Committing to missiles also meant needing a very solid tank because you take more incoming DPS from every enemy ship, and the long cycle times mean it takes longer to pop and switch to the next target.
No dispute that Raven PvE pilots had an advantage pre-QR, but it wasn't a free ride at all.
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:41:00 -
[122]
Is it just me or are most of the people complaining about missile changes solo level 4 mission runners?
Me and a mate did three level 4's all within the 15 minute bounty timer as well, okay they weren't the hardest available by any stretch, they seemed easier if anything. He was in a raven shield boosting my night hawk (with drones) and I was carrying heavy missiles and a target painter. Easy, fun and enjoyable.
I'm guessing if you want missiles to "work" again, take a friend along and work with them as a team. I believe this method could work in pvp as well, but I don't really do that.
This game has actually got more interesting, so thanks CCP - if you want to boost missiles a bit further of course then so be it, but I believe it's spot on.
-------------------------- Life is about memories the more the better.
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rofflesausage
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:07:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush Is it just me or are most of the people complaining about missile changes solo level 4 mission runners?
Probably because that's where missiles had their strength.
They were already underused in PvP pre-QR for good reasons, now they are even worse. You only need to look at the Stealth Bomber to see this....
So in one foul swoop you've made them worse at both aspects. And that's coming from a blaster user.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:02:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush Is it just me or are most of the people complaining about missile changes solo level 4 mission runners?
Me and a mate did three level 4's all within the 15 minute bounty timer as well, okay they weren't the hardest available by any stretch, they seemed easier if anything. He was in a raven shield boosting my night hawk (with drones) and I was carrying heavy missiles and a target painter. Easy, fun and enjoyable.
I'm guessing if you want missiles to "work" again, take a friend along and work with them as a team. I believe this method could work in pvp as well, but I don't really do that.
This game has actually got more interesting, so thanks CCP - if you want to boost missiles a bit further of course then so be it, but I believe it's spot on.
Wait, so shoving more people into a situation makes the game more interesting? I thought we were moving away from that behavior .
CCP: Missiles are broken and we're just waiting for a fix.
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Gorefacer
Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:15:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Depopulo It sucks..just went ratting in my Torp Raven....
1.The raven speed has been nerfed...the NPC BS's go faster than me now... 2.The explosion velocity on my torp is now about 99 m/sec..the NPC BS travels at about 139 m/sec...
Which means the explosion on a torp is to slow to do full damage(put NPC resistance aside atm) on a huge ass BS.
I have Target Nav Prediction trained to 4..even at 5 it will still be nerfed.
I just ratted with my torp raven as well to test out the changes. Using 1 TP (Don't even have signature focusing trained at all) and t1 torps I had no issues blowing through BS spawns (might have taken an extra salvo per rat at most) and still hit cruiser spawns just fine. Drones popped frigs fast as they have always done.
I was also using named torp launchers so my torp spec lvl 4 DPS boost was not utilized.
Basically without changing my fit AT ALL, I noticed almost no difference from pre-patch performance. Maybe it's just me though? If anything I can now clear belts very fast instead of insanely fast - considering I could clear belts faster than things respawned anyway - this patch doesn't seem like it will impact my ratting efficiency in the least bit.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:28:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush Is it just me or are most of the people complaining about missile changes solo level 4 mission runners?
Most likely. I still find them doable, but quite a bit slower (maybe 40%?). I think the complaints are not because it was super-easy before and now it's impossibly hard, but because the Raven in particular had a sweet spot where DPS output was pretty well balanced with tankability - this isn't so important vs. belt rats, but in a solo L4 mission you're looking at some huge spawns. Since missile kills are now taking quite a bit longer, the ship is slower, and you can't just launch 5 medium drones, there's a lot more incoming DPS to tank.
Fitting 2x target painters helps a lot but obviously that comes with a stiff price for tanking. Vs. Battleships it's not so bad as their torpedoes or cruise missiles are less effective than before, but a mass of frigates and cruisers is now much more of a hassle than before.
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Stunna Shade
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:36:00 -
[127]
yes, i cant run my lvl 4 missions in my torp raven being semi-afk !!! I actually have to play ! I HATE THIS PATCH !
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Mr Ignitious
R.E.C.O.N. The Firm.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:37:00 -
[128]
they only went as far with fixing missiles as they went with fixing speed. Seems like fun to me =)
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Korovyov
Luminous Love Brewery
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:40:00 -
[129]
TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters. --=--=-- train exhumers to 5 --=--=--
i see what you did here |
Renee Alexis
Luminous Love Brewery
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:41:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Korovyov TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.
AND!
^_^ _____________________________________
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Blondieonsum
Servant's of order
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:47:00 -
[131]
Me in a raven, my buddy in a raven, my alt in a logistics. 2 level 5 mission no problems. 130 k lp's between 2 :) my orge 2's are popping small frigs, my cruise are killing everything. Maybe a little slower on cruisers now but meh. I see no real unbalance lol we had it easy before :P Work on your missile skills is all. Stop crying Adapt!
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:52:00 -
[132]
My personal oppinion is that the guy who is responsible for the missile nerf must have been a new dev, a guy recruited from the community that was playing gallente and hated caldaris and their missiles. In this nerf he simply enforced his aversion against missiles, without having the look on the overall situation and without actually caring about the wellbeing of the game.
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Turin
Caldari Eternity INC.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:03:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn on 12/11/2008 08:04:47 In general i am finding drakes to out perform ravens in most cases. they can tank about the same and the dps is higher on smaller ships( on frigates as much as 6 times)
actually, drakes have higher DPS against battleships now as well, compared to the raven. This is simply wrong.
I believe CCP went to far.
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Mankirks Wife
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:14:00 -
[134]
I generally agree with the changes to missiles, as it brings them more in-line with other weapon systems. The Raven is no longer king of lv. 4s, but it doesn't take long to cross-train a Domi for mindless mission grinding.
My only criticism would be that they should have added a midslot module to increase explosion velocity / decrease explosion radius. This would fulfill a function similar to a tracking computer, which missile users need but currently have no counterpart for. ---
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:24:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/11/2008 01:26:58
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba My personal oppinion is that the guy who is responsible for the missile nerf must have been a new dev, a guy recruited from the community that was playing gallente and hated caldaris and their missiles. In this nerf he simply enforced his aversion against missiles, without having the look on the overall situation and without actually caring about the wellbeing of the game.
It is precisely Gallente which aside from their droneboats (and non-blaster fit naturally, ACs/lasers/nos/neut are all much better options) are completely useless post patch.
The worst hit ships are really medium blasters. I found it incredibly trivial to kill med blaster ships on SISI in preety much anything at all, and the only way they had any hope were ECM drones. Huge web nerf + MWD nerf in short range via scrams + huge 400% web nerf completely kills med blaster platforms.
I would make a similar argument about smalls vs same size ships tbh.
All med turrets lost the ability to hit interceptors completely. Medium drones got nerfed vs smaller targets. Ships relying on keeping a target in a very short optimal have been seriously nerfed.
On the other hand, it is not possible anymore to completely mitigate missile DPS via speed.
The reason for the missile nerf, ofc, is because missiles were pwning everything on SISI, while guns were totally absurd crap. Now guns are crap and missiles are crap too (except v same size + targets).
I hate this patch. But pretending that it nerfed missiles specifically is absurd.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Demonic Sentiment
Caldari Dissonance Corp Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:26:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Demonic Sentiment on 13/11/2008 01:26:00 My Idea
my answer to helping balance missiles some w/o another complete redo..
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Aryen Striker
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:45:00 -
[137]
I think the missiles need to be looked at .......
I don't use them and I don't do missions but just had a battle with a Raven and it wasn't a fair fight .....
Raven firing at a Devoter =
He was killed and I still had 81% shields (and I armor tank)
01:09:18 Combat Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to ****** hits you, doing 12.6 damage.
I want a good fight not point and click.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 02:04:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/11/2008 02:04:59 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 13/11/2008 02:04:19
Originally by: Aryen Striker I think the missiles need to be looked at .......
I don't use them and I don't do missions but just had a battle with a Raven and it wasn't a fair fight .....
Raven firing at a Devoter =
He was killed and I still had 81% shields (and I armor tank)
01:09:18 Combat Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to ****** hits you, doing 12.6 damage.
I want a good fight not point and click.
Outcome would be 100% the same if you fought a blaster mega or any non-neuting in webrange BS really. At best they could compete which one would damage more of your shields, and I'm betting its the Raven.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2008.11.13 11:47:00 -
[139]
Nonsense, other BS have bigger drone bays and more bandwith then caldari overall.
Turret users can fit more types of turrets and go for higher tracking with less dps or for low tracking with high dps. Turrets benefit from the speed nerf, missiles didnt, because they got overnerved.
1: all turrets became better due to the speed nerf. 2: missiles got nerved.
add 1 and 2 and you get a VERY bad situation in balance.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2008.11.13 11:48:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate I haven't had much difficulty.
same.
did a few missions, shot a few corp mates.
seems fine so far. Ive not tested any heavy missiles yet however.
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Karlen Velro
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Posted - 2008.11.13 12:20:00 -
[141]
ive got a Vaga alt and a mission running CNR pilot ("show me the iskies!") and what ive realised is that we;ve been back in game for 2 days so CALM THE **** DOWN!!!! . Yes these are large changes and your current set up may suck a giant assickle but try something new, bring a friend along, use target painters, fit heavies on a raven (ok maybe not). all i can say is i hope most of the people here on this thread dont take problems in RL as they do with interenet spaceships, if things dont go ur way adapt and try to move on, or at least try to do that before jumping on the forums to ride CCP for changes that a huge portion of the community have been calling for since the fall of Rome.
THought for the day: If life gives u lemons, make lemonade. If life keeps giving u lemons, find someone whos life has given them vodka and lets have a party.
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Lord EmBra
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.13 12:26:00 -
[142]
Why are missile users always the ones who whine?
You got rid of Nanos and now you have found something else to complain about.
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Ohmy Fugod
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Posted - 2008.11.13 12:55:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Lord EmBra Why are missile users always the ones who whine?
You got rid of Nanos and now you have found something else to complain about.
Actually, if missile users are mostly mission runners, please explain how come somebody would complain about a ship setup they never ever came across.
A ha! That's right, anti-nano people weren't PvE'rs, but actually crappy PVP'ers. Thing is, nano users are so bitter they just won't admit it, and will use every possible opportunity to gloat at all of these guys' problems, yelling at them the same thing they'll have to do now: Adapt or die. And, wow, check this out, nanof*gs, curiously enough, wanted easy PVP, yet they blame on missile users the fact of wanting easy PVE.
Bottom line: If you look at it thouroughly, you'll see that it's nano users actually the ones they're whining and cringing the most. They just won't do it directly, cause after so much time of hating people who complained (righteously or not), they just can't do it directly, so have to resort to insults and aggression towards anyone else not happy with this patch's results.
Cheers. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Quod Natura non dat, Salmantica non praesta |
Karlen Velro
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Posted - 2008.11.13 13:23:00 -
[144]
*facepalm*
we've moved onto whinging about people who were whinging about the original whine, and seemingly starting a compition about who whines loudest.
surely the best thing to do is discuss changes and suggest ways u can work around it, or even suggestions to ccp ways to balance it. i know some people have done that but definatly not in the majority
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Cyan Blackadder
CBI
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Posted - 2008.11.13 13:47:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Terianna Eri I tried shooting a drake in a thorax today, turned on MWD and burnt right at it. Three volleys of precision scourge put me into 75% armor, turning off the MWD didn't so much help.
Let me see, Thorax has 1905 shield HP, 47.2% kinetic res with a Damage Control II activated so around 2800 effective HP/21 missiles = 133 damage per missile.
In theory, if you had an afterburner activated, the damage per missile would be around 25 per missile.
There you go.
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Schalac
Caldari Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2008.11.13 14:22:00 -
[146]
I believe they went overboard, just a little. It's nice that we now hit things, but I would rather not hit certain things than do crap damage across the board. Maybe give us back our damage and give a better use for defender missiles because now not having defenders is even better than before because missiles do so little damage to things it's not even laughable to have them trained, just pathetic.
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Tsual
Minmatar Iikhelahii khulemah'lal
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Posted - 2008.11.13 14:48:00 -
[147]
Originally by: My Sister when my faction cruises do 11.2 dmg to a frig and all seven of em cant even break the tank of an average frig.... thats not cool. cant wait to come accross a dire version or an elite fed frig thats gunna be fun.
What damage/missile type against what frigat?
******************** Moral is only usefull so far as society demands it from one to accept his presence.
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Elena Morin'staal
Minmatar Tau Online Explorator Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.13 14:57:00 -
[148]
In some of my other ships, I've had a lot of trouble doing damage to frigates with my medium and heavy projectile turrets.
Now, it would appear that the larger missiles have problems damaging small ships.
Is this right? I thought you were meant to use the right weapon for the right class - small weapons against small ships, medium against medium and large against large.
So why would missiles be different?
I've yet to run a mission since patch (fallout 3) so I have no idea, but it looks to me like missile sizes are now brought into line with turret sizes.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 15:18:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Korovyov TBH I don't think they went far enough. You can still kind of do damage to small ships with them. IMHO they need to be nerfed some more, to bring them in-line with blasters.
You mean those medium blasters that have no issue popping frigates in missions?
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.13 15:22:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Lord EmBra Why are missile users always the ones who whine?
You got rid of Nanos and now you have found something else to complain about.
May I refer you to a multitude of whines from projectile users and blaster users? And I notice that Amarr pilots are keeping pretty quiet right now, but go back a year and there were more Amarrr whines than there is tea in China. And and the drone guys are starting to powerup the Whine-O-tron as well.#
In conclusion: the world's problems are your fault.
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