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Cheopis
One Stop Mining Shop
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Posted - 2008.11.23 06:18:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Erovicious
The biggest thing that Mining is missing right now is any avenue for player skill to be a factor. Pretty much right now the only thing that dictates success with mining is
A)Are you able to maintain consciousness while mindlessly wrecking dense veldspar for hours.
B)Happen to be hooked up with a 0 space outfit and have access to the "good" ore.
Anything that can allow a trained miner to actually use player interaction, and thus more player skill (for better or worse) at increasing the yield/value/etc of time spent is a good thing. With a few notable exceptions, it takes at least *some* skill to pvp and make money at it. Right now, it just takes a willingness to be bored out of your brain to make money mining, or a willingness to suck up to 0 space egotyrants.
*Ero*
Not entirely true.
Empire mixed mining op. How do you organize your miners?
Some methods I have used in the past.
One laser per roid. No matter how many miners there are. Void cycles are a waste of time.
High sec mining pairs. Non-crystal using miners. One mines the farthest roids from their location, one mines the closest. When they get down to just a few roids left, the mining director has two copies of a bookmark for their next spot in another belt dropped in their jetcan. When the roids pop, bam, warp to new spot and continue.
Mismatched mining pairs. Barge and nonbarge. The barge, with it's much longer cycle, concentrates on roids with larger content. The non-barge targets smaller roids. This helps avoid null-yield mining cycles.
Mining pairs with mining crystals. Different miners are assigned different ores. Less wasted cargo space for crystal storage. No chance of void cycles.
Mining directors should make bookmarks and take into consideration the actual content of belts when setting the bookmarks.
It's faster to warp to another belt in a barge than it is to fly 30km to another place in the same belt.
If you line up properly, you can use your hauler to bump barges and make them move faster.
However, most of these things are organizational skills. It would be nice to have the option, but not the requirement, of more challenging aspects to the actual mining process itself. Risk vs reward. Compensation for effort. A bit of excitement.
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Polly Prissypantz
Dingleberry Appreciation Society
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Posted - 2008.11.23 10:05:00 -
[92]
If they make the new mining system as 'exciting' as the current exploration system, then I will be forced to visit the CCP offices with an axe*.
*Assuming I get it through customs.
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bjtardiff
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Posted - 2008.11.23 15:45:00 -
[93]
Hmm I been looking at these possible updates to mining and think that not only will this stop macro miner it will stop nearly all people who want to start getting into mining. Now there gonna half to wait about 6 months along with the skills for mining barge lvl 5 and exhumer for them to even stand a chance of making a profit. Is it really worth stopping the macro miners while also stopping every single other noob who wants to get into mining?
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Mantria
CompleXion Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.23 17:32:00 -
[94]
I actually like mining as it exists now to be honest.
I understand that it isn't "exciting" or terrible interactive. However, there are already other avenues of gameplay if that is what the player is looking for. I like that I can read while mining, I like that I can get up for a minute and get a drink from the kitchen. Its a time intensive, but not necessarily focus intensive way of playing, which is appealing to a lot of people because it allows them to add to the game world in a meaningful way by supplying the market with minerals.
As a graduate student, I have an absolute ton of reading to do any given week. Being able to read and mine keeps me sane. If they are going to make it so that I need to be sitting at the computer and paying attention every moment while mining, that is going to be seriously detrimental to my ability to play the game.
Now, Im not saying that mining is perfect, but I think right now its ok, and I hope they take into consideration the types of players that choose to be miners when they make the final changes to the mining system. |
Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.11.23 19:51:00 -
[95]
Originally by: bjtardiff
Hmm I been looking at these possible updates to mining and think that not only will this stop macro miner it will stop nearly all people who want to start getting into mining. Now there gonna half to wait about 6 months along with the skills for mining barge lvl 5 and exhumer for them to even stand a chance of making a profit. Is it really worth stopping the macro miners while also stopping every single other noob who wants to get into mining?
Did you read all the changes? It states that mining will be scaled. Noobs just go to the static belts and mine the basic stuff. Once they improve their skills, they move up to the systemwide belts and progress thru more dangerous such belts, and I'd guess when they are Hulk-worthy they move up to Planetary Rings.
I can't see what's stopping them here.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Shira Seskai
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Posted - 2008.11.23 20:49:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Shira Seskai on 23/11/2008 20:50:37
Hi everybody
Just went through this thread and wanted to give my 2 cents as well. :) First thanks for the information about the discussed changes and special thanks to Halada for his great guide on mining! You helped a lot of us "Roid pouncers" with the first steps into this part of the game. ^^
I agree that mining in general needs some changes. Being a miner myself for some time now I know the problems in the cluster that limit the fun when leaving a station with your hulk. The main things for me that cause problems are:
- Belt size.
Due to the constant increase in mining equippement most belts in empire space are stripped to pebbles. While solo mining this is "just" annoying to switch your lasers all the time after a few cycles, making a Corp mining op this becomes simply frustrating.
I moved my HQ several times and spend hours and days to find systems worth mining. This is no fun. And no, going to lower or lowsec to find better belts is no option here (*insert spiffy Carebear-dodging comment here*) ;)
Suggestion:
Make it worth leaving your HQ with an orca and several hulks. Belts, no matter where they are, need to be much bigger so you don't have to switch your lasers that often as it is. In the beggining of EVE, belts have been far bigger then anyone could ever mine a whole system. Why not making it the same as with ice? If I want to mine, I want to hear my mining lasers running, and not searching for belts or hearing my corpmates curse about macrominers. ;)
Hearing there will be more belts gives me hope. Take focus on that, for a lot of miners are not happy about seeing almost empty belts in empire space.
- Macro miners.
Enough is said about this topic already, but I want to point out that for me the most annoying part about them is that they manage to strip some systems so heavily, that you are forced to move elsewhere or become a nuts suicidal MM-hunter - what can be fun, but without the minerals to cover your losses something you can't keep up very long. ;)
Anything that makes it harder for them to destroy other player's fun is good imho.
I think that having much larger belts would subside a lot of cursing about them. Whatever their impact on EVE markets and prices is (I think it's much more then 1% actually, but not willing to discuss numbers here) they should not be able to make a mining-session into a hauling session, for the next belt worth is several jumps away from your refinery. (sidenote: I switched my HQ several times, getting my standing up so there is no refining-tax anymore. After the 4.th or 5th time it starts to get annoying if you want to mine - not mission run lvl 1-4 missions for days.)
Suggestion: Aside increasing belt-size, I think NPC-raids is a good point to make life for MM much harder. Also the switch to "deadspace/Scan-areas" will improve the situation.
If belt-sizes are big enough, there would be no need for something like a "claiming-system" for Corps or Allys - there'd just be enough out there for everybody.
Of course this would change the mineral prices somehow, but seriously, this is no argument for me anymore because every change affects the markets - don't they?
Adapt to it ^^
Skillwise I'd be happy to make things like yield or specification in a special ore/min-type more efficient with some additional skills. After flying a Hulk and having a Corpmate max all affecting skills there is not much you can do anymore in this profession. I'd welcome to elongate the skilling - without changing too much about what is already there.
For example, if an asteroid consists of several types of mins and advanced skilling makes you able to tweak several % into more of a desired mineral you need - that'd be very appreciated.
After all, it's the long-time motivation that keeps a lot of us in this game for years! :)
All in all I'm looking forward to these changes and I thust the devs to make things better - not worse and hopefully they will come soon, so the "pebble-mining times" are over. :)
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MartinLaw
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Posted - 2008.11.24 08:34:00 -
[97]
I'd like to be able to tractor a roid and set it on a collision course with a POS of the corp that just declared war on me....
Now to be fair, you should also be able to enclose the roid in your warp bubble, just for a few secs.
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Sar Vlaxius
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Posted - 2008.11.30 23:20:00 -
[98]
I'm just stepping into the mining profession and am already looking forward to some of these ideas being implemented, even if, realistically, we're considering them for the far future.
Way to regulate this thread, Ancy. :)
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.01 06:58:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Sar Vlaxius
...
Way to regulate this thread, Ancy. :)
You're welcome!
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Welktickler
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Posted - 2008.12.01 12:25:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
1. Majority of the mining system will be moved to the so called "Dungeon System".
Im quite new to eve Can someone please explain to me what the Dungeon system is?
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Farina Larros
Gulliver Corp
Prismatic Refraction
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Posted - 2008.12.01 13:43:00 -
[101]
Thanks to the OP for an interesting post.
As a T2 Hulk pilot, I think that mining needs a huge overhaul. I understand that lots of empire miners want to go AFK while they are mining, but name one other profession where you can do that in Eve? FWIW, I PvP, mission, mine, explore, and Exploration is about the only other activity where you have to AFK, because it's so tedious. However, as I do most of my mining in 0.0, AFK = death, so I would love something that makes mining more interesting.
Current exploration mechanism is dire. I spent 4 hours trying to pinpoint a grav site (I have most exploration skills to level 4), only for a noob with no triangulation or pinpointing skills to find it in 5 minutes. So I hope that the ore location is a bit simpler, if you have the skills.
Being able to scan a belt sounds fun, and the deep core mining idea sounds pretty cool. Seems strange that you only get to use this skill for one ore at the moment, and even then you don't need to train it past level 1 if using a skiff.
Chasing asteroids sounds cool, although logistics could be interesting with the current warp-to mechanic. Still, I'm sure the challenge will make things more interesting.
I really don't understand all the whines about making it harder. Mining is so easy it's laughable. Sure the skills take a while, but unless you are in low-sec (pointless) or 0.0, there is almost zero risk. The dev's aren't stupid, anything that makes it riskier or harder, will no doubt increase the rewards. Don't want to scan a belt - well just go mine the easy mode stuff and live with the lower yield.
Anyway, I'm earglerly awaiting further news on any of these proposed improvements.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.01 13:48:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Welktickler
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
1. Majority of the mining system will be moved to the so called "Dungeon System".
Im quite new to eve Can someone please explain to me what the Dungeon system is?
The so called "Dungeon System" is an in game mechanic tool for the devs. They have different game mechanic environments that people can pass thru. For instance, they can pass from normal-space to dungeon space, from normal-space to stations.
Dungeon System is basically just a tool-set for the devs. So if you are in an area defined by the dungeon system, devs have more tools to toy around with (triggers, events, random spawns etc etc) than if you were, for instance, hanging at a gate.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.01 13:52:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Farina Larros
Anyway, I'm earglerly awaiting further news on any of these proposed improvements.
As do I. I just hope the next thing I hear isn't at Fanfest -09.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Bluepetal
Amarr
Deadbone Platoon Corp
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Posted - 2008.12.01 16:50:00 -
[104]
Thanks for posting this up. Some really good ideas there. The real challenge is to balance this so that corp miners, mega miners, and solo miners all get a fair deal. I don't mind mining because it is a fast way to make ISK to buy the stuff for my other ships. And for those of you that have not solo mined in mid to low sec space, there is nothing boring about it. I get attacked usually 2 - 3 times, always. Sometimes it is NPC, sometimes it is a Player rat. But there is always somebody. How about they make it so that player rats, when they get defeated, can be captured and tried by the local magistrate. If found guilty, they lose it all and start over? Now that would be fun, huh? Probably not.
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I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.12.01 19:10:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Krylon Rhae
Edited by: Krylon Rhae on 12/11/2008 11:10:43
As Ancy points out below...
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
I seriously believe that they will think thru stuff both once and twice before implementing it. Having to "chase" roids in a Hulk would probably involve some changes to exhumers speeds and agility. I sometimes baffle at how stupid you people think the devs are. :D
I'm sure that the Devs would not do something that would ruin the game mechanics... get real folks.
Are you out of your mind? CCP so changed everything with Quantum Fail it's sent most of the non-industrial playerbase running back to the beginnings just to figure out how to evolve... and in the end it did not change things a whit. The problem they wanted to address (excessive speed) has not been changed in the least. Things go slower, but then tackling was sent back to the stone ages and missiles don't do a whole lot more now than they did to the speeders before.
On the up side trying to hit a slow ship in close is even more difficult... muchless a fast one.
Some of the proposed changes discussed thus far are for the better (removing belts from the static overview to protect miners from wandering ganks, esp in 0.0), but they had best make the belts easily found with specialized ships (mining ships, scanning specced ships) but not with, say, a wandering inty.
Originally by: Krylon Rhae
As in any thing, start with a broad brush, throw out ideas and as you refine those ideas, keep what makes sense and get rid of what would not. So for now, I'll keep an open mind and see how things develop hoping they implement something that makes mining more creative/rewarding while not making it too complex or tedious.
My 2-isk worth.
Agreed there... mining meeds to be made far more dynamic and varying to screw with macros, but not made so complex it becomes worse than it currently is.
One thing I would like to see is an ability to transfer ore from a specialized mining ship (frig/cruiser/barge) directly to the cargo hold of something like an orca by use of a bridging module or somesuch. Yes, one small tiny macro, but one that requires at least two specialized ships. That's all I've ever wanted in mining.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.12.01 19:20:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Aquestria
Edited by: Aquestria on 19/11/2008 10:32:19
In the past i have spent hours hunting for a hidden belt only for a noob corpie to log in and find it first go, it would seem that a revamp of scanning mechanics is in order first imo.
There's nothing more frustrating than that, to be sure.
Or scanning out a freakishly difficult gravimetric and start working only to have that nuub scan down my ship and warp in half a dozen hulks I can't do anything about.
Or lowsec pirates gleefully scanning my hulk down in 1/1000th the time it took me to find the belt in the first place.
Currently finding a gravimetric is like pulling teeth and I don't understand how a month old nuub alt can do it in minutes while my max-skilled, implant heavy exploration char can't do it in hours.
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Erovicious
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Posted - 2008.12.01 19:39:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Erovicious on 01/12/2008 19:41:12
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
And I, for one, welcome the thought that stealing ore might be profitable.
I was following this thread closely till now. You have just lost all credibility in my sight. You've obviously never sat at the helm of a mining ship and worked to make an EvE living doing the most boring thing in the game only to have some child can-flip you looking for some cheap pvp thrill.
Next.
*Ero*
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Gavin DeVries
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Posted - 2008.12.01 20:55:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Mister Xerox
Currently finding a gravimetric is like pulling teeth and I don't understand how a month old nuub alt can do it in minutes while my max-skilled, implant heavy exploration char can't do it in hours.
I'm going to respond to this, even though I suspect it's a rhetorical question, in the event that you really don't know. Suppose that after you get a result on a scan, it lists a signal strength of .0467. That means that each time you analyze a probe, you have a 4.67% chance of getting a hit on that item. Since those odds aren't great, you basically sit there analyzing over and over again, hoping the random number generator gives you the good result this time. The nuub alt probably had about a 2.5% chance, and got lucky with the RNG is all.
______________________________________________________
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.02 10:23:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 02/12/2008 10:23:10
Originally by: Erovicious
I was following this thread closely till now. You have just lost all credibility in my sight. You've obviously never sat at the helm of a mining ship and worked to make an EvE living doing the most boring thing in the game only to have some child can-flip you looking for some cheap pvp thrill.
Next.
Where's Captain Facepalm when I need him?
As said above, I have Exhumers V (don't believe me?) and mine A LOT. But god forbid that thieves and pirates might also have some fun in this game. I've been on both sides of the coin, thank you very much. I've been both a pirate and a carebear, and until you've done both, don't you dare condemn one or the other.
That being said, I don't really consider can-flipping to be piracy. Ore STEALING on the other hand...
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Kalderion Mar
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Posted - 2008.12.02 18:15:00 -
[110]
Can flippers aren't usually out there to get your ore. generally they want you to respond and try to kill them.
I've killed a few of them and their friends by being ready nearby with combat ships and tacklers, and it has always been interesting at how angry they get because you descended on them with all out "pvp" ships...
In the long run, Ive found, that its usually easier to just warp off and go somewhere else, even a full can of ore is more or less worthless and can be gained back somewhere else in only a few minutes.
I have lost a barge to a hauler that was tanked and ready.. it so surprised me that I more or less sat and watched as it popped my hulk.. (Yes my mining character was a noob hulk pilot then with t1 skills)
I have since trained all t2 and have killed can flippers, but as i said, it wasnt really worth the whining and screams of NO FAIR!!!
I cannot really see can flipping ever being profitable... what is 27500m3 of Omber worth? It certainly wouldnt get me into a belt to flip a can. Seems to me that a continued effort is only inviting disaster as they bring in corpies to resolve the problem, or hiring mercs to declare war etc etc etc etc...
This character is my pvper, and I certainly enjoy it on occasion, but I usually mine because im tired of it and want to relax, so attacking can flippers is counter productive, since the only reason i can see them being there would be to entice you into fighting..
Now, once this all moves to the dungeon system, and there are perhaps good belts with Crokite or Spodumain, THEN i can see where losing a can might be a little more irritating.
Scanning is a pain right now. I spent 4 hours looking for a grav sight in a system with a grav sight, and unknowns etc etc in it. I finally got a hit, and spent many scan cycles and probes to finally locate...... an acceleration gate.. I dont know about yall, but I pay to have fun, and that was most certainly NOT fun, it was a complete and total waste of four hours I could have spent doing something more enjoyable, like having a tooth pulled or digging out an ingrown toe nail....
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.02 19:42:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Kalderion Mar
Can flippers aren't usually out there to get your ore. generally they want you to respond and try to kill them.
Correct, which is why I don't really consider them pirates nor thieves. The ones that really get in to STEAL your ore are interesting though :D
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Erovicious
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Posted - 2008.12.02 22:33:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Erovicious on 02/12/2008 22:34:22
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
As said above, I have Exhumers V (don't believe me?) and mine A LOT.
I do too, but I don't really care if you have 452 points of Advanced Rock Shooting, it doesn't change a thing. Endorsing MORE mechanisms against those who ply their trade honestly ruins it. The bottom line is more subscribers to EvE = bigger and better things that CCP can afford to code for us to enjoy. Honest players don't scare new subscribers away - can flipping-can baiting jackhats do that - and they don't need more help.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
But god forbid that thieves and pirates might also have some fun in this game.
CCP goes above and beyond to make sure those among us still living in their parent's basement have their toys to aggravate others and otherwise let out their social ineptitudes into EvE. No worries for them there.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
I've been on both sides of the coin, thank you very much. I've been both a pirate and a carebear, and until you've done both, don't you dare condemn one or the other.
I can and will. Sorry, but I don't need to walk in the shoes of an EvE-lowlife to understand the mentality of someone who wants something for nothing. For that matter, when has any Pirate ever hesitated to trash talk someone who makes an EvE-living honestly? Trying to guard their tender sensitivities? 
Meh, its all meaningless until we see how its truly to be implemented. I do agree though with just about any mechanism they can institute that eliminates/hinders macromining.
*Ero*
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.03 08:43:00 -
[113]
All I'm saying is that you can't assume that every pirate is an *******. Mole persons with a real grip on what "honor" is all about. However, those you face in high sec that enjoy themselves with canst pirates I've ever come across are mature and sensible persons with a firm grip of what honor is.
However, I can see where you are coming from since most "pirates" you face in high sec are lame canflippers, who tend to be rather young, smacky and annoying. There are however very experienced canflippers who will flip your can in the hope that you will bring something fightworthy to bear.
Anyway, I see we look upon things a bit differently, but I respect your point, as long as you don't spit at pirates for choosing a different way of playing than you.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Pluribus Onion
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Posted - 2008.12.04 16:39:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Just to note on some of the concerns raised in this thread:
While this was just mentioned in a passerby, I genuinely believe that CCP has some really good ideas about strip mining...
Thanks but no thanks.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Some might actually (omg blasphemy) need teamwork with some fighters defending the miners. Who knows? I doubt CCP is going to omgwtfpwnnerf solominers and make mining tedious.
It's already tedious. Adding complications will make it more tedious. Requiring combat patrols will devastate the productivity of mining ops.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
The whole idea to the mining changes is to make them exciting, interesting and interactive. Yes, this is going to **** off all those that sit half asleep while mining ice and watches movies. You know what? I don't give a bloody damn. I pay to PLAY the game. If mining becomes fun, interactive and exciting, I will be overjoyed, because it's the most boring thing you can in EVE at the moment.
You obviously aren't a serious miner. If you want to play the game you can run missions, get into wars, go to low or null sec, or mine in low or null sec and lose your ships. If mining becomes more interactive and more exciting, mining productivity will necessarily decrease, having huge unintended consequences all through Eve.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
So while I don't think CCPs goals is to make mining tedious, but to make it interactive. Which means you can DO stuff to help your mining, instead of just F1-F3 and sit there waiting for the cycles to finish.
No, what you mean is that we will have to do stuff just to make mining possible, more stuff that we presently have to do. Mining productivity will go down, many miners will lose interest, and the foundation of industrial corps that mine and manufacture may be destroyed.
What's needed in mining is new innovation on CCP's part to add new levels of mining productivity. Something has to be done to move substantially beyond the productivity of T2 Hulks with boosts.
Also needed is a fix to what appears to be some combination of overpopulation and poor roid spawn/growth rates. I've scouted my entire region and found no place in hi sec that has good belts anymore.
If major changes are made to how and where asteroids are placed and how they are mined, the end result has to facilitate mining, not complicate it.
My mining chars have "God miner" productivity, too, but I actually use it. I fly as many as nine of my own chars in a mining fleet, and I insist on maximizing my productivity. On the one hand it's kind of silly for a business executive to spend hours mining in Eve, but I don't mind as long as I can be really, really productive. If mining becomes more complicated I will have to reconsider the whole thing. I'm not going to jump through new hoops CCP invents unless it results in even greater productivity than I have now.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.04 16:53:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 04/12/2008 16:56:17
So basically what you are saying that CCP needs to add another ship that increases your yield beyond what a Hulk can do? Are you NUTS? More yield isn't what we need, seriously. A Hulk will wtfpwnbbq a roid in less than a cycle sometimes and heap in ****loads of minerals. More yield is certainly not what we need.
And the comment about that if you wanna play, go do something else just proves mining is broken. Mining is supposed to be as fun as doing anything else.
Quote:
Also needed is a fix to what appears to be some combination of overpopulation and poor roid spawn/growth rates. I've scouted my entire region and found no place in hi sec that has good belts anymore.
Try low sec. My belts are never dry.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Pluribus Onion
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Posted - 2008.12.04 17:14:00 -
[116]
o Belt size -- Yes, belts or whatever they morph to be must be larger.
o Asteroid size -- Roids do not contain the volume of ore that their radii or diameters indicate. They seem to contain an amount of ore linearly related to size, which is contrary to RL physics. Just changing this one thing would greatly improve the existing belts. When you find a roid that is, say, 20K in size, you should be able to mine it for days.
o Stripped belts - Yes, this has become a big problem. Too many ppl mining, too low a spawn and/or growth rate, belts too small.
o Low-sec or null-sec alternatives -- No thanks, I'd stop mining altogether if I have to mine in low or null sec.
o Traveling mining fleets -- The Orca needs a much larger ship maint bay for this to be practical. As it is now we need to use two Orcas to be able to store mining ships and haulers so some of the fleet can fly webber and combat escort ships while in transit.
o Almost-empty belts in empire space -- Yep, this has become a serious problem. Often I don't mine at all because I can't find belts worth mining.
o Macro miners -- The main thing that needs to be said about this is that CCP has it entirely within their power to detect and ban not only ISK farmers (as they seem to have already done) but macrominers as well. The macrominers I'm seeing are 23 x 7 x 365. It's trivially easy for CCP to detect chars that are logged in 23 hours a day. But even when I petition obvious macrominers, nothing happens and they continue to be there, 23 hours a day, mining away. It took CCP years to get off their asses and do something about ISK farmers and it seems they still can't move themselves to do anything about macrominers.
o Having to change your base to find decent belts -- This indicates a major imbalance in the game. I, too, remember how belts used to be a couple of years ago. Mining is the foundation of the Eve economy, and if we are having such a hard time mining, it's the beginning of the end unless CCP fixes it.
o High-sec "claiming" -- This is unofficially done in some places, but wouldn't be necessary if more nice systems were available. In addition to making belts larger, increasing spawn/growth rates and making roids contain the volume of ore their sizes indicate they should contain, CCP should add more stationless dead-end and double-dead-end systems, which are good for serious, POS-based mining corps. Stationless double-dead-end systems are extremely rare throughout hi sec in all Regions. Adding them, though, would have no effect on the overall topology of Eve systems, gates, routes, etc. It should be a no-brainer.
o Moving beyond present mining maxima -- CCP needs to do something new and innovative that will allow us to move beyond the current maxima of boosted T2 Hulks and Mackinaws. The Orca was a good thing, but very late in coming, and it still needs to be tuned up to have larger ship maint bay and more high, med and low slots to be fully functional. How about the next level of hi sec mining fleet ships? Will we have to wait years more to get to another level? How about a true hi-sec capital mining ship with ore compression and other goodies? How about mining drones that are actually effective? Why does CCP seem to be stuck in the mode of providing only gimped solutions? Why does CCP favor low and null sec? Sorry, I won't be forced into low or null sec no matter what.
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2008.12.04 17:20:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Ancy Denaries on 04/12/2008 17:20:18
Originally by: Pluribus Onion
How about a true hi-sec capital mining ship with ore compression and other goodies? How about mining drones that are actually effective? Why does CCP seem to be stuck in the mode of providing only gimped solutions? Why does CCP favor low and null sec? Sorry, I won't be forced into low or null sec no matter what.
I have to disappoint you here and say that CCPs strive has always and will always be to try to encourage and push people out into low/null sec. That's where the "real" EVE happens. That's where you have to band together in corporations, that's where you have to defend your property and stand up for yourself. Low/nullsec is where you make a name for yourself and the true sandbox takes place.
Therefor high sec is always going to be inferior to low/null sec in what is availible to
the players. That's a fact, and I doubt it will ever change.
Edited because my spelling sucks.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Pluribus Onion
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Posted - 2008.12.04 17:26:00 -
[118]
Originally by: I SoStoned
...mining meeds to be made far more dynamic and varying to screw with macros, but not made so complex it becomes worse than it currently is.
Uh, no. CCP has always had the ability to detect and ban ISK farmers and macrominers. Why they only got around to dealing with typical ISK farmers earlier this year and why they still haven't dealt with macrominers is one of the great mysteries of Eve.
At the core of Eve is a database. Every item in the game is in the database. Most methods of transferring ore, minerals and ISK are already logged and capable of being datamined to detect violations of the EULA/TOS. Any gaps in the logging would be easy for CCP to plug.
Tolerating ISK farmers and macrominers has been one of CCP's greatest failures. Fears of giving advantages to ISK farmers and macrominers are the greatest fallacies in Eve. CCP should detect and ban ISK farmers and macrominers and give legitimate players the ships and modules and other tools they need to mine the ore that drives the entire Eve economy.
All of us who are serious, long-term programmers and who work with databases know that CCP's failure to deal with game-breaking exploits like ISK farming and macromining is a complete joke.
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Pluribus Onion
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Posted - 2008.12.04 18:26:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
So basically what you are saying that CCP needs to add another ship that increases your yield beyond what a Hulk can do? Are you NUTS? More yield isn't what we need, seriously. A Hulk will wtfpwnbbq a roid in less than a cycle sometimes and heap in ****loads of minerals. More yield is certainly not what we need.
I didn't say that a solo miner necessarily needs a ship that has greater mining yield than a Hulk. What we need is a next level in productivity of mining ops. By your logic we wouldn't have a Hulk because a Covetor is enough, and we wouldn't have a Covetor because a Retriever is enough, and we wouldn't have a Retriever because an Osprey is enough. And we certainly wouldn't have an Orca.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Quote:
If you want to play the game you can run missions, get into wars, go to low or null sec, or mine in low or null sec and lose your ships. If mining becomes more interactive and more exciting, mining productivity will necessarily decrease, having huge unintended consequences all through Eve.
That comment about that if you wanna play, go do something else just proves mining is broken. Mining is supposed to be as fun as doing anything else.
Who says? You fail to see that your viewpoint on this is the limited one of a small-scale miner. Sure it's boring. Try operating 4 Hulks and 2 haulers with "God miner" bonuses and see how bored you get. It's almost as busy as the clickfest of running several Ospreys. What you want to do is complicate my mining. If that happens, I will mine less or not at all.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Quote:
Also needed is a fix to what appears to be some combination of overpopulation and poor roid spawn/growth rates. I've scouted my entire region and found no place in hi sec that has good belts anymore.
Try low sec. My belts are never dry.
To each his/her own. For me, mining in low or null sec makes about as much sense as trying to operate a retail store in downtown Mogadishu. There are ppl who do it but it isn't for me. If you don't see that the absence of decent belts in hi sec is a problem, I think the flaw in your viewpoint speaks for itself.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Quote:
I fly as many as nine of my own chars in a mining fleet, and I insist on maximizing my productivity
Dude, if you wanna waste that much money on running NINE accounts, be my guest.
So, uh, if I had said "My eight corpies and I..." that would have been OK? Then you might have considered the merits of what I was saying? You don't see how insular, how provincial you're being? And who are you to judge how I spend my money? For all you know I could be independently wealthy, or I could be a home-bound invalid with nothing better on which to spend my disability money.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Me? I prefer one.
And there's nothing wrong with that. I don't criticize ppl who have only one account, although there is general agreement that having at least two accounts is light-years more effective than just one. And, of course, CCP strongly promotes additional accounts.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
You're probably one of the reasons there's no belts around.
Wrong. Now you're just getting nasty. I can't make a serious dent in the many systems in my area. And I usually only mine for an hour or two, a couple-three times a week. Lately I mine even less frequently because all the belts are depleted by truly massive mining ops and by macrominers plugging away 23 x 7. One of the OPs was complaining about this, and it's true. It's nothing like it was two years ago or even one year ago.
And how would my mining fleet have any different impact than a mining corp of eight or nine members? Huh? Would there be something wrong with a mining corp of nine members? Who is nutz here?
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Pluribus Onion
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Posted - 2008.12.04 18:44:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Ever thought that it might be you that are trying to play the game in a way it wasn't supposed to be played?
Nonsense. There is no difference whatsoever between one person mining with 8 or 9 accounts and 8 or 9 ppl mining with one account each, or 3 ppl mining with 3 accounts each. CCP even strongly promotes having additional accounts (Power of 2 and whatnot).
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Try PvPing with 9 characters and see where you end up....
Uh, we were talking about mining, not PvP. It isn't feasible to PvP with more than one or maybe two accounts unless some are pure scouts, cloaked watchers, etc. It's possible to run missions with two ships, but when I used to run missions I used four accounts -- two mission ships, one salvage ship to clean up after the rats were killed, and either another salvage ship or a hauler, the latter for missions that had too much stuff to carry off in smaller ships. See, my time is valuable to me and I'm not willing to p--- it away doing things are are less than optimally efficient.
OTOH there are other ppl with more time than money, and I don't criticize them one bit. We're all different; our situations are different; our priorities are different.
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Quote:
You obviously aren't a serious miner.
If being a "SERIOUS" miner involves having to multitask and pay for nine accounts, hell I never wanna become a serious miner. Ever heard of a corporation?
I don't criticize you for mining with one account; you shouldn't criticize me for mining with eight or nine accounts. My criticism is that you wish to project your solo miner viewpoint onto a game where there are vastly larger industrial operations than you apparently engage in, and you will break those. Have you ever tried to build a freighter? A cap ship? You're not going to build those by mining with a single Hulk.
FYI I have multiple corps and I trained up for and created an alliance that has about 10 other corps in it and about 100 ppl. In my 2-1/2 years in Eve I have noticed a trend... it is much more difficult now than it was a few years ago for me to find ppl willing to cooperate, to work together. The trend seems to be toward ppl working more and more independently. I can presently provide Orca bonuses to four squads of 10 ppl each, but it's difficult to find others willing to participate in mining ops with me, and Eve doesn't provide tools and bookkeeping that facilitate mining op payouts based on the yield ppl bring to the op and the time they spend in an op. The larger the op, the more complicated the bookkeeping becomes unless it's an all-for-corp or all-for-alliance op.
If you wish to make general suggestions about game mechanisms such as mining, you need to take into consideration the entire range of mining endeavors, not merely the level of mining in which you engage.
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