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Gonzo Hadron
Gracious Bodily Harm
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Posted - 2008.11.01 15:22:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Gonzo Hadron on 01/11/2008 15:22:00 I've been reading a lot of threads about how stupid it is to do the learning skills to lvl 5, however I see it in a different light.
How many of you pvpers wouldn't think about taking a set of +5s into combat, but would take some +4s. I know I do on a regular basis, so to me training the learning skills to lvl 5 has meant I can have the effectiveness of +5s but without the worry about losing them.
In short if I'd had +5s when I wanted to use em and lost em as much as I've lost +4 then I'd have spend hundreds of millions more then I have, so learning the skills to 5 has saved me hundreds of millions of isk.
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El Dracula
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Posted - 2008.11.01 15:36:00 -
[2]
Edited by: El Dracula on 01/11/2008 15:36:31 Your logic is flawed.
If you train your learning to +5, and plug in you have +10 more to all your attributes \o/
It costs you a bit, but you have pimped training times.
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ChronoLynx
Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.11.01 16:12:00 -
[3]
I have debated on training my advanced learning skills to 5 for over 4 years now (they came out October 1st 2004 I think). If I had done them in late 2004 early 2005 I would have saved a lot of training time. By my calculations it would take 6 months each to recover from training the intel and mem to 5 with my stats, and 4 months for the willpower and perception. Charisma was 5 months to recover. If I did it when I should have I would have recovered all that time and then some.
Alas, at the time I was very impatient and wanted to fly more T2 ships now!
Sometimes I wish I could remember; Sometimes I wish I could forget.
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Gonzo Hadron
Gracious Bodily Harm
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Posted - 2008.11.01 16:37:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Gonzo Hadron on 01/11/2008 16:38:54
Originally by: El Dracula Edited by: El Dracula on 01/11/2008 15:36:31 Your logic is flawed.
If you train your learning to +5, and plug in you have +10 more to all your attributes \o/
It costs you a bit, but you have pimped training times.
I do this too when I'm away on holiday etc. +5s aren't for every day though, where as +4s are. That's what I'm saying.
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Mag's
MASS
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Posted - 2008.11.01 17:24:00 -
[5]
Yea +4's are cheap as chips, so no big loss.
+5's on the other hand, are a little too expensive for PvP. But never say never aye.
Mag's
Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you. |
Code Black
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Posted - 2008.11.01 17:28:00 -
[6]
Hmmm I never thought about it like that. I guess maybe training those to 5 is a good idea for pvpers. Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to?
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2008.11.01 18:19:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Misanth on 01/11/2008 18:21:27 I am always using +4's in PvP and thought about the same as the OP did.. then just to see the maths more clear I loaded up EVEmon and checked how much I'd cut off on the cap/supercap training by spending 4x 13days to get adv learning first.
Around 350 days (so just under a year) and it had paid off. I've played 3years+ and doubt I'll quit in less than a year, so I decided to get them done.
Now I'm about to do them on my alts again, after they finish some stuff I want sorted out soonish.
I was reading numbers on these forums before, someone claimed it took 2.5 years before they'd pay off.. that's one thing that held me back earlier. With some perspective I wish I'd done the maths myself years ago. Recommending people to do the maths themselves rather than listening to others.
Oh and remember that the Learning-skill boosts your stats overall, getting +1 in an attribute is actually a bit more.
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CrayC
Gallente CrayC Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.01 20:31:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Misanth I was reading numbers on these forums before, someone claimed it took 2.5 years before they'd pay off.. that's one thing that held me back earlier. With some perspective I wish I'd done the maths myself years ago. Recommending people to do the maths themselves rather than listening to others.
There is some truth to it, though...
If you train ALL Learning Skills to level 5, it will take you a few years to recoup the time "wasted" going from 4 to 5. But what if you only want to train ships and gunnery skills from now on? Only train the advanced Perception and Willpower and you will break even a LOT sooner. That's where people go wrong when talking about level 5 Learnings - they automaticly assume that it means all Learnings to 5 and if you only play 2 years, it doesn't pay off. But if you are specific with your training (like those that refuse to train Charisma-based skills), then you can feel the difference sooner...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.11.01 21:27:00 -
[9]
Yeah, the calculation goes for average base attributes, all learning skills to 5, and an almost perfectly even mix of skills training where all attributes are equally well represented. Like that, it does take 3+ years to break even. But if you have uneven attributes (say very high per/wil) and you only do the L5s advanced in the attributes your training will be focused on (per/wil for primary combat skills)... or, heck, just the primary attribute your training will be focused on (per), then the breakeven point will come much sooner, even in as little as half a year.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Bladen Kerst
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.11.01 23:23:00 -
[10]
I find little justification for training advanced learning to lvl 5.
If you are prepared to play eve for as long as your advanced learning skills level 5 to pay off, you are into a very long haul. So long in fact that it means that you are taking this game seriously. And if you are going to take this game seriously it is a good time to get a second account or maybe even two and start to specialize and go live in 0.0 space on permanent basis.
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Cruel Intent
Caldari Fairlight Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.01 23:55:00 -
[11]
+5's are kept in the Jump clone held in a high security bunker deep within friendly lines :)
I decided not to train to 5 and keep at 4 on the basis that I have no patiance and want to fire a bigger gun.
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Jelosavich
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Posted - 2008.11.02 03:04:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Gonzo Hadron Edited by: Gonzo Hadron on 01/11/2008 15:22:00 I've been reading a lot of threads about how stupid it is to do the learning skills to lvl 5, however I see it in a different light.
How many of you pvpers wouldn't think about taking a set of +5s into combat, but would take some +4s. I know I do on a regular basis, so to me training the learning skills to lvl 5 has meant I can have the effectiveness of +5s but without the worry about losing them.
In short if I'd had +5s when I wanted to use em and lost em as much as I've lost +4 then I'd have spend hundreds of millions more then I have, so learning the skills to 5 has saved me hundreds of millions of isk.
This logic is very flawed. When you train the learning skills, you're spending SP now to gain SP later. When you buy implants, you're spending MONEY to gain SP. It's not stupid to train the learning skills to 5 if you're going to be in eve for a long time, but the logic above is... just bad.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.11.02 07:31:00 -
[13]
My alt has 26 mil SP while only having 4/4 trained and +3 plugged in even if I can easily afford (and use) +4s. The main benefit of that is that the "useful" to "dead-weight" SP ratio is much better, usually leading to one grade cheaper clone and a lot less financial loss when podded due to dirt cheap implants.
I've probably lost more training time BOTH on my alt and on my main due to FORGETTING to change a skill on time rather than not having the "proper" levels trained or higher grade implants plugged in. Yeah, sure, if I *had* trained the basics to 5 from the start and maybe a couple of choice advanceds to L5 I would already have more "useful" SP by now (and a lot more total SP), but then again, what's one single extra level 5 in the grand scheme of things ? Not much, that's for sure.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Stephen HB
Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.11.02 09:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Akita T Yeah, the calculation goes for average base attributes, all learning skills to 5, and an almost perfectly even mix of skills training where all attributes are equally well represented. Like that, it does take 3+ years to break even. But if you have uneven attributes (say very high per/wil) and you only do the L5s advanced in the attributes your training will be focused on (per/wil for primary combat skills)... or, heck, just the primary attribute your training will be focused on (per), then the breakeven point will come much sooner, even in as little as half a year.
That is not quite correct. Focussing your skill training onto a few attributes and only training those advanced learning skills to V will reduce the time to breakeven, however this is not affected by your base attributes. Reason being that the skills add exactly 1 point (1.1 with Learning V) to the each attribute, for +1.5/min for both. This added rate is irrespective of base attribute, thus the time to mathematical breakeven is unaffected. ----------
Character creation guide.
Originally by: Adonis 4174 You killed him to annoy him. He self-destructed to annoy you. You're annoyed thus he wins.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.11.02 10:08:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Pottsey on 02/11/2008 10:08:53 CrayCsaid "If you train ALL Learning Skills to level 5, it will take you a few years to recoup the time "wasted" going from 4 to 5." That has been proven false time and time again. It's not time wasted all the time as you can be better off after a matter of weeks with more useful skill points.
For example I maxed out my current career path so trained adv5 learning skills then all the advance gang skills came out. So I trained 10million ish gang skills. Having Learning skills to level 5 gave me more useful skillpoints over not having them.
If I add up all the skills I trained that came out after I trained adv5 learning skills. Next add on all the new unplanned career paths I went down. Then due to adv5 skills I end up with I bet months ahead in skillpoints over not having adv5 learning. Perhaps even more then 6 months by now.
How long it takes for learning skills to recoup and be worth the time isn't something you can put in a math formula. It's not a set 4 years or whatever the number is.
A more current example, what if you train adv5 learning now then T3 comes out as a surprise in the new expansion? You then spend 6+months or longer training T3. Right from the second you start training those new skills you're ahead in useful skill points over not having leaning 5.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Gonzo Hadron
Gracious Bodily Harm
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Posted - 2008.11.02 12:29:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jelosavich
Originally by: Gonzo Hadron Edited by: Gonzo Hadron on 01/11/2008 15:22:00 I've been reading a lot of threads about how stupid it is to do the learning skills to lvl 5, however I see it in a different light.
How many of you pvpers wouldn't think about taking a set of +5s into combat, but would take some +4s. I know I do on a regular basis, so to me training the learning skills to lvl 5 has meant I can have the effectiveness of +5s but without the worry about losing them.
In short if I'd had +5s when I wanted to use em and lost em as much as I've lost +4 then I'd have spend hundreds of millions more then I have, so learning the skills to 5 has saved me hundreds of millions of isk.
This logic is very flawed. When you train the learning skills, you're spending SP now to gain SP later. When you buy implants, you're spending MONEY to gain SP. It's not stupid to train the learning skills to 5 if you're going to be in eve for a long time, but the logic above is... just bad.
It's not flawed. By training the learning skills I'm saving myself a lot of isk. I want to have the highest skills/isk ratio I can, so training lvl 5s is perfectly logical.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.11.02 12:42:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Stephen HB That is not quite correct. Focussing your skill training onto a few attributes and only training those advanced learning skills to V will reduce the time to breakeven, however this is not affected by your base attributes. Reason being that the skills add exactly 1 point (1.1 with Learning V) to the each attribute, for +1.5/min for both. This added rate is irrespective of base attribute, thus the time to mathematical breakeven is unaffected.
The added rate is the same, but the time needed to GET the learning level in the first place is different. Therefore, the payoff time is different.
Still not convinced ? Let's have a clear example. On one hand, a base 4 per 3 wil Vherokior retailer, on the other hand a base 14 per 11 wil Brutor slavechild (probably the largest difference in base per/wil pair you're likely to ever see), both characters with full 5/4 learnings and +5 implants. Now, the Vherokior char gets (so far) 19.8 per and 18.7 wil (1749 SP/hour for Clarity 5), while the Brutor gets 30.8 per and 27.5 wil (2673 SP/hour for Clarity 5). Clarity 5 needs 632235 SP, or in this case a bit over 15 days for the Vherokior but under 10 days for the Brutor.
Obviously, the payoff time for the Vherokior is over 50% longer than the payof time for the Brutor (52.83% longer if you want to keep score).
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Bladen Kerst
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.11.02 16:05:00 -
[18]
You also get diminishing returns from every next attribute point. For example
lets assume that your learning skill is lvl 5 and intellegence is 14 while memory is 10. You would train skills in electronics skill group at
60 * 1.1 (learning V) * (14 + 10/2) = 1254 sp/hour
now you lets improve intellegence and memory by one and get
60*1.1*(15 + 11/2) = 1353 sp/h ; 1353/1254 = 1.08 so you train them approximately 8% faster
but now lets assume that your learning skill is lvl 5 and intellegence is 26 while memory is 22. You would train skills in electronics skill group at
60*1.1*(26 + 22/2) = 2442 sp/h
now lets improve it by one
60 * 1.1 (27 + 23/2) = 2541 sp/h; 2541/2442 = 1.04 so you train them approximately only 4 % faster while you had to waste 20 days to get this boost by training adv learning skills to lvl 5.
Anyway I just lost 3 hours worth of skillpoints because I went to bed at 4 am yesterday and got up very late, but I would never trade 3 hours of quality sleep for them.
If you want a really significant boost to your training times get a second account and you may increase up to 100%. Specialization is a key
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.02 17:49:00 -
[19]
The main argument against training advanced learnings to 5 is that by the time it makes any difference, you have so many SP it doesn't really make much difference.
In short: it's a playstyle choice.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.11.02 19:55:00 -
[20]
Akita T said "True... but only true if you play long enough to live and see the payoff day, and up to that point you would actually be at a disadvantage" But in my post I just proved that sometimes you're not at a disadvantage but instead have an advantage. For example when T3 comes out all the people with adv5 have an advantage.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Gray Sable
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Posted - 2008.11.02 20:38:00 -
[21]
If you want the learning skills maxed out just do what i do. Chip away at them overnight when you need a skill so you aren't waking up at 2 am. According to evemon these skills are useful in any plan taking over a year and a half.
However i suppose an easier solution to know where you need to get your skills is to set an evemon plan for what you want to fly, what skills you need for it, etc and let it tell you what learning skills save you the most time.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.11.03 02:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Pottsey Akita T said "True... but only true if you play long enough to live and see the payoff day, and up to that point you would actually be at a disadvantage" But in my post I just proved that sometimes you're not at a disadvantage but instead have an advantage. For example when T3 comes out all the people with adv5 have an advantage.
That's why I phrased it intentionally vague
It could be you ran out of skills you want trained right now, so it doesn't hurt to have the learnings trained instead. It could be you're going on a vacation, and nothing else you still want except learnings is long enough. It could be an event where a new skill comes out and it IS vital to get it to a certain level faster than everybody else (but here initial attributes would matter more than adv.5 learnings anyway).
In the grand scheme of things though, it's 10-15 (or even more) days "now" for a 3% to 5% increase in some skill training speeds (and half of that in some others) in the future.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.11.03 07:15:00 -
[23]
Another one some people forgot is it makes you more adaptable. It could be you have an unplanned change of skill path. Don't most people end you learning skills they never planned to? Like a new ship line, or new weapon system. If I suddenly change to blasters as I want to PvP more I would save perhaps 5 or 6 ish days. After the blasters are done I would then move onto EW and perhaps a new ship line. Many people do that. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Jelosavich
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Posted - 2008.11.03 18:16:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 02/11/2008 10:08:53 CrayCsaid "If you train ALL Learning Skills to level 5, it will take you a few years to recoup the time "wasted" going from 4 to 5." That has been proven false time and time again. It's not time wasted all the time as you can be better off after a matter of weeks with more useful skill points.
No, it hasn't been proven false. If you're going to redefine the term "wasted" then you can make it mean whatever you want it to mean. The point is: If you train level 5 in the advanced learning skills, it will take you approximately 2.5 years to have as many skillpoints in non-learning skills as you would have had without training the learning skills. Saying "Well I think that SP are wasted if I'm spending them on skills that have already come out" is a bit rediculous, in and of itself, and doesn't make us wrong.
Originally by: Gonzo Hadron
It's not flawed. By training the learning skills I'm saving myself a lot of isk. I want to have the highest skills/isk ratio I can, so training lvl 5s is perfectly logical.
No, it IS wrong. You're presenting a fallacy of false dilemma. It is not an either-or situation. By training the learning skills to level 5, you're not "saving" the money of buying +5 implants, and you WILL have more points that aren't in learning until approximately 2.5 years later.
Originally by: Akita T The added rate is the same, but the time needed to GET the learning level in the first place is different. Therefore, the payoff time is different.
Again, incorrect. The payoff time is the same. Whether you spent 2 hours or 10 days getting those 650000 SP, you could have been training something else and had 650000 SP in a "useful" skill. No matter how long it takes you, you traded 650000 SP in a useful skill for 650000 SP in a non-useful skill, and the amount of time it takes to get back those 650000 SP is 650000/1.1 regardless of how long it took you to get those 650000 SP.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.11.03 20:27:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Akita T on 03/11/2008 20:31:02
Originally by: Jelosavich
Originally by: Akita T The added rate is the same, but the time needed to GET the learning level in the first place is different. Therefore, the payoff time is different.
Again, incorrect.[stuff]
You haven't read the actual examples AT ALL, did you ?
Quote: The payoff time for Per/Wil skills is about 386 days for the Vherokior but about 384 for the Brutor. The difference ONLY comes from the SECONDARY attribute in the learning skill (i.e. willpower) if doing only partials. So, yeah, [somebody was] right practically, I was partially right and partially wrong theoretically, but completely wrong on the magnitude/importance.
The rest you can read a bit above in full and in context.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Gonzo Hadron
Gracious Bodily Harm
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Posted - 2008.11.03 22:14:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Gonzo Hadron on 03/11/2008 22:14:18
Originally by: Jelosavich No, it IS wrong. You're presenting a fallacy of false dilemma. It is not an either-or situation. By training the learning skills to level 5, you're not "saving" the money of buying +5 implants, and you WILL have more points that aren't in learning until approximately 2.5 years later.
It's not an either or situation, but it is a situation in which I decide whether or not to buy +5s and whether there is an alternative to spending isk on them and risking flying with them AND having the maximum learning skills that I can. Like I said the best isk/learning skill ratio. Not learning/time ratio, but isk/learning. If you look at it like this then learning to lvl 5 is a good idea.
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Bladen Kerst
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.11.03 22:24:00 -
[27]
time is money (c)
in this case time = isk
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.11.04 07:48:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Pottsey on 04/11/2008 07:59:20 Jelosavich said "No, it hasn't been proven false. If you're going to redefine the term "wasted" then you can make it mean whatever you want it to mean. The point is: If you train level 5 in the advanced learning skills, it will take you approximately 2.5 years to have as many skillpoints in non-learning skills as you would have had without training the learning skills. Saying "Well I think that SP are wasted if I'm spending them on skills that have already come out" is a bit rediculous, in and of itself, and doesn't make us wrong." I an not redefining wasted, some of you lot are wrong. If you have more useful skill points due to advanced learning skills you are not worse off and you have not wasted time training learning skills. You are better off. It does not take 2+years to get more useful skill points, sometimes. What is rediculous is giving every skill a set value. Then saying apart from learning skills which have a lower value.
It's stupid to do it the payoff way as its misleading by itself and working out payoff doesn't give you useful information that matters. The only thing that matters are do you have more useful skill points if you get advanced learning skills over not having them. People are looking at payoff or players are being told payoff is years so they are worse off. In fact many of them would have been better off getting advanced learning skills. So what if "approximately 2.5 years to have as many skillpoints in non-learning skills as you would have had without training the learning skills." Every skill has a value and the extra skills you end up having from learning skills can be much higher value then the skills you would have trained instead of learning skills.
Jelosavich said "it will take you approximately 2.5 years to have as many skillpoints in non-learning skills" To me that's sort of like saying don't train hybrids skills as it will take you approximately xx time to have as many skillpoints in none turret skills. Learning skills don't give you less skillpoints overall, they don't always give you less useful skillpoints either. The only thing that matters is which path gives you the most usefull skillpoints. Payoff doesnt answer that by its self.
____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
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Bladen Kerst
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.11.04 17:16:00 -
[29]
There is also this thing as initiative to consider. In the game of chess you sometimes sacrifice a pawn in order to get the upper hand on your opponents. In eve it is very similiar: a newbie who goes to live to 0.0 from the very beginning won't be able to use +4 implants all the time and won't have the opportunity to train learning skills for 2 months, but if he is smart and resourceful and makes friends with right people he can earn a lot more than people living in empire and be able to afford a second account without actually paying for it with his real life money. In the end he doubles his skill training times and is in position to even triple it.
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Gonzo Hadron
Gracious Bodily Harm
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Posted - 2008.11.04 17:28:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Bladen Kerst There is also this thing as initiative to consider. In the game of chess you sometimes sacrifice a pawn in order to get the upper hand on your opponents. In eve it is very similiar: a newbie who goes to live to 0.0 from the very beginning won't be able to use +4 implants all the time and won't have the opportunity to train learning skills for 2 months, but if he is smart and resourceful and makes friends with right people he can earn a lot more than people living in empire and be able to afford a second account without actually paying for it with his real life money. In the end he doubles his skill training times and is in position to even triple it.
This second account stuff I don't understand. I've got a second account and don't actually pay for either accounts anymore because of isk I'm earning, but I still have the learning skills done on both accounts. There's no reason why having a second account would mean that you don't do the learning skills, learning them just means both accounts will be even quicker to specialise if you you learn the right learning skills to 5.
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