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Gnome Executor
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Posted - 2008.10.22 20:51:00 -
[1]
Hi guys,
I want to know some stuff about the Command Ships mostly in PvP (gang PvP). Which is the best now? Astarte or Absolution I guess... and what do you think about the Eos with a fit like this: brutal tank, 3 warfare links and other highs are emissions, because it fight with drones mostly anyway (I would use it in smaller gangs)? Do Command Ships worth training at all these days?
Thanks for your answers in advance.
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ArmyOfMe
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.22 20:54:00 -
[2]
if you plan to use gang mods then yes, they are worth it. in all other regards the tier 2 battlecruisers are not much worse then commandships
Originally by: deadmaus
Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything |
Fifi LeFume
Infestation. R.U.R.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 20:57:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Fifi LeFume on 22/10/2008 20:57:43 Commandships arent much better in pvp than battlcruisers.
Outside of agility, they very much outclassed in terms of tank and dps by battleships.
With the upcoming game changes though, bs's will lose a bit of their utility (ok alot) against smaller ships. This can be seen as a buff to bc's and cs's.
However even with these changes, the price of a cs just doesnt warrant the marginal improvement over tier 2 battlecruisers.
Ofc, if you're running a fleet cs in a large gang it can be helpful. A normal field commandship though isnt very worth it.
After the changes id say the abso is the best, followed by the sliepnir, astarte and nh. The astarte is truly horrible though, what with the web changes and speed changes. Blasters are going to get hit hard
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slothe
Caldari Murky Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 20:59:00 -
[4]
command ships good at-
1. command roles i.e warfare links 2. pve (very effective in small gangs)
command ships not so good at-
1. non gang mod pvp (as tier 2 bc almost as good but cheaper)
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Gnome Executor
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Posted - 2008.10.22 21:02:00 -
[5]
Thanks for the fast answers.
And what do you think about that Eos idea?
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slothe
Caldari Murky Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.22 21:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Gnome Executor Thanks for the fast answers.
And what do you think about that Eos idea?
you can setup a gang eos with 2 med permarunning reps with good resists and 1600 plate that can permarun 2 links at least.
the anomoly with the eos is the bonused links are for ecm, which is a bit weird imho, especiaslly as caldari have become the ew race ( tho it was originally going to be gallente i think).
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.10.22 21:11:00 -
[7]
Originally by: slothe
Originally by: Gnome Executor Thanks for the fast answers.
And what do you think about that Eos idea?
you can setup a gang eos with 2 med permarunning reps with good resists and 1600 plate that can permarun 2 links at least.
the anomoly with the eos is the bonused links are for ecm, which is a bit weird imho, especiaslly as caldari have become the ew race ( tho it was originally going to be gallente i think).
For a time Gallente EWAR was superior in that the modules were useful on most any ship with a spare mid slot. Caldari EWAR has more or less remained the best EWAR when used on speciality ships.
By the same token, every race has Ewar (even if it's only marginally effective) but only the Caldari lineup is utterly focused on shield tanked ships. The shield gang mods make sense in this regard.
Gallente ships are armor tanked, generally drone carrying and often favor close ranged combat. Their EWAR was specifically designed to facilitate this kind of combat (i.e. use damps to cover the approach and force a close range fight). Thus, since so much rides on the gallente fleet having a close range fight to win it makes sense that they get a boost to their ewar.
Minmitar ships are known for speed and flexability - thier gang mods boost this ability. Amarrian ships are known for their thick armor plating and mid ranged firepower - amarrian gang mods as such help ensure the golden fleet can outlast their opponents.
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Gnome Executor
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Posted - 2008.10.22 21:21:00 -
[8]
Understand: so all races' Command Ship boosts the given race's best stuff on the battlefield, except the Eos... should be fixed in my opinion.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.22 21:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
Originally by: slothe
Originally by: Gnome Executor Thanks for the fast answers.
And what do you think about that Eos idea?
you can setup a gang eos with 2 med permarunning reps with good resists and 1600 plate that can permarun 2 links at least.
the anomoly with the eos is the bonused links are for ecm, which is a bit weird imho, especiaslly as caldari have become the ew race ( tho it was originally going to be gallente i think).
For a time Gallente EWAR was superior in that the modules were useful on most any ship with a spare mid slot. Caldari EWAR has more or less remained the best EWAR when used on speciality ships.
By the same token, every race has Ewar (even if it's only marginally effective) but only the Caldari lineup is utterly focused on shield tanked ships. The shield gang mods make sense in this regard.
Gallente ships are armor tanked, generally drone carrying and often favor close ranged combat. Their EWAR was specifically designed to facilitate this kind of combat (i.e. use damps to cover the approach and force a close range fight). Thus, since so much rides on the gallente fleet having a close range fight to win it makes sense that they get a boost to their ewar.
Minmitar ships are known for speed and flexability - thier gang mods boost this ability. Amarrian ships are known for their thick armor plating and mid ranged firepower - amarrian gang mods as such help ensure the golden fleet can outlast their opponents.
think he meant the fact that back in 2003/2004, gallente were actually the EW race, but then again, BC's and CBC's and gang mods didn't exist back then ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 00:54:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Gnome Executor Understand: so all races' Command Ship boosts the given race's best stuff on the battlefield, except the Eos... should be fixed in my opinion.
Are you a RP-er so fly with all same race ships or what?
Eos has good links if you've got plenty of ECM. The only thing about the Eos is that the rep bonus is very meh and prevents any sensible usage of the ship in direct combat, at the scale where you'd want to use a Eos over another EW ship (which is 5+ ECM ships really).
What Fleet CS you want depends on what your gang needs, really.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.23 01:10:00 -
[11]
Flying a BC is like driving a rusted cadillac while flying a CS is like driving a pimpmobile. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Tempest of Change |
Emperor Salazar
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Posted - 2008.10.23 05:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Flying a BC is like driving a rusted cadillac while flying a CS is like driving a pimpmobile.
This.
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Gneeznow
Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.10.23 05:44:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Emperor Salazar
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Flying a BC is like driving a rusted cadillac while flying a CS is like driving a pimpmobile.
This.
sucks when you lose them though, as the proud loser of 5 absolutions I can safely say I would have been better spending that bil on harbingers or hurricanes, but if you got the bux then a cs are nice bling bling
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Emperor Salazar
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Posted - 2008.10.23 05:54:00 -
[14]
That's why I've never taken my NH for pvp. A drake can serve the same exact role (with gang mod if you have the skills), tank nearly exact (if not better) damage and dish out only slightly less DPS.
The cost of CS is just too high for something, as other posters have mentioned, Tier 2 BCs can do just as well.
However, to answer the op's question, I'd say if you want to train CS, and you have no other skill that absolutely need to be trained, go for it. CS will get you some nice skills(BC 5 is very nice, especially for those days you just want to take out your Tier 2 BC). And depending on if you go for Field command or Fleet command, you will get some other nice skills (HACs 4, access to AWU for Field; logistics 4, prereqs being sig analysis and long range targeting 5 for fleet command).
IMO we will eventually see a boost to CS (maybe even a reduction in material cost?). So, while I'm ****ed that its not cost effective for me to fly my NH in pvp now, I'm sure it will come in handy in the future.
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Poldarn Joaq
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.10.23 10:46:00 -
[15]
If you max out your gang skills and fit out a command ship with as many links as you can manage (5/6, but dont expect to do much dps), then you are very welcome in any gang. All the boosts you provide will give your gang a real edge. ---------------
Thats no moon!!
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 10:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Emperor Salazar
The cost of CS is just too high for something, as other posters have mentioned, Tier 2 BCs can do just as well.
Personally, I'd rather say that the CS just don't have enough over Tier 2 BCs to make them worthwhile.
I mean, let's just look at slots - CS get 0 extra slots over Tier 2 BCs and lose a rigslot, so effectively they lose a slot over BCs. What they do get is 2 extra bonuses and T2 resists. Now, T2 resists are a preety good thing, that is beyond dispute. The 2 extra bonuses... well, depends on the bonus. The most annoying are the active tank bonuses, because they force you to either fit a active tank (which is often not the best thing to do) or abandon a bonus (thereby sacrificing part of the T2 goodness). Of course, if you did use your CS for solo / very small gang, then a active tank would be a good thing, right?
Well the thing is, if you consider solo/small gang where they should shine at, you run into another issue: All the Field CS except the Astarte (which has a lot of problems) have a slot distribution issue since they're based on Tier 1 BC hulls (out of which none bar the Brutix have midslots for proper tackle, and you will definitely won't get by with a MWD+scrambler/disruptor post patch), and they all get a lowslot (which does benefit their damage output or tank, but not their solo capability).
The situations (particularly post patch) where I'd rather have a Hurricane rather then a Sleipnir for solo work are legion for this reason - while I'd be very happy with a T2 Hurricane (4/6) without the shield boost bonus. Give it 5/6 or 4/7 and I'd probably fly them half of the time just because I get a hard-on for pimp AND pwnage at the same time.
That said, the CS has another issue for solo work. It's engagement envelope is no better then the engagement envelope of Tier 2 BCs - you cannot reliably hunt for any targets (except other CS, although some BCs can menage that with insane skills / implants) you could not hunt for in a Tier 2 BC (you can kill stuff easier and more reliably, of course, but it's not a fundamental difference). On the other hand, as one of my corpmates said, "it scares away targets like ****ing on electrified wire" - while when you're in a Tier 2 BC many HAC/recon pilots will willingly engage you.
So, ok, I hear you say, they're gang ships, treat them as such? Fine. However, the two CS with active tank bonuses don't scale well in gangs - and on all the Field CS (particularly the NH) you have some issues fitting a warfare link (least issues when fitting a Sleipnir, but still won't fit highest tier guns + all the jazz + warfare link) which is what you'd really want to make it worthwhile to bring a CS rather then a BS.
Furthermore, for a gang, if it's not very small, I'd rather bring a Fleet CS; a Damnation (since I fly with armour RR gangs a fair bit) is much more useful then a Absolution would be (which admittedly can fly together with the RR BS mainly because it does have BS-level buffer) thanks to giving the entire group 30%+ more tank and a bit of extra EHP, which is hugely useful.
So honestly, I do not see the point of flying a Field CS except for looking pimp, and in a gang I'd rather provide massive bonuses and look pimp (in a Fleet CS) rather then provide a smaller single bonus, 110% of Tier 2 BC level DPS and look pimp.
Their price is just fine, anyway.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Gnome Executor
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Posted - 2008.10.23 11:16:00 -
[17]
Wall of text warning :D
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Emperor Ryan
Amarr Imperial Syndicate Forces
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Posted - 2008.10.23 11:18:00 -
[18]
To be honest CS are worth it if you like being on the top of your game, Especialy if Your going to be in Gang and using 3 Warefare link, However the ones such as the Abso and the Astarte are also Supurb, The Abso is a Heavy tanker+ Good Dps dealer With tackle! It also way out preforms its T1 Version
The Astarte is another story, the ship can with not much effort Top Bs Dps which is Pretty fantatic while leving room to put your effective Hp up. However Cost/Profit Wise i would run wtha Brutix because its only a bit weaker when it comes down to it. Also Great dps
But it depends on what the use it. Commnadhsips have good req skills that you'll be happy you trained as it also prereqs HAcs as well. So i would say make the time investment but remeber, Support skills are Critical for CS's
- Emperor
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Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
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Posted - 2008.10.23 11:21:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Vrabac on 23/10/2008 11:23:42 Edited by: Vrabac on 23/10/2008 11:22:26 Absolution is by no means a bad ship. When I first got it I thought it's a 110% of a harbinger at double the cost, but it's actually not the case. As someone mentioned, it has BS level buffer. It's faster than most amarr BSs since they often dont fit a MWD, it locks faster... it has certain role although if youre in a rring BS gang you'd better be a rring BS yourself. So it might not be 110% of a harbinger, its fair bit more, but it still costs way more than it's worth compared to it. This doesnt make it bad, it just makes it useful for people with a fairly deep wallet.
Astarte COULD be good in a way, but it's active tank bonus is a huge waste, and it moreover prompts people to fit funny dual repping tanks that pop when looked the wrong way.
Sleipnir is good mostly because it's not easy to kill if used properly, than again it will do way less damage than it's nominal top level than any other CS since he'll be probably shooting weaker ammo from deep faloff. It's good for staying alive and looking good on mails tho, which in many cases makes it the best alaround field command. It's also very different from typical hurricane, unlike other commands that are very similar to tier 2 BCs.
Nighthawk... too few medium slots. It can do over 700dps which is not that bad, but it's only with kinetic damage which isnt best choice against most t2 ships, plus it's tank isn't much better than a similar drake's, plus it has issues with tackling modules which makes it's usefulness in a small gang limited and in bigger gang it's dps simply isnt worth having it over a BS while its tackling issues make it's faster lock and agility also of limited use.
Fleet commands are very useful. Damnation is one hell of a ship, not only because it gives perfect bonuses for a remote repping armor tanked gang, but also because it can act as a bait, tackle up to a point, and with the simplicity of it's position in the fight itself (it basically does nothing) it's perfect ship for the FC who can than concentrate 100% at calling primaries and observing the general situation on the field. Others look very good too, never tried them though. My guess is that eos with its EW bonuses would actually be of immense value in BS gang that has extensive EW support coupled with damnation yet I never saw an eos used in that way. People rather train ninja-style skills than leaderships.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.23 11:23:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Emperor Ryan The Abso is a Heavy tanker+ Good Dps dealer With tackle!
You're either not fitting a MWD (which is a big can of worms really), or not fitting a cap booster (which is not good). It's like saying a Geddon can tackle really. I mean, yeah, but... are you sure you want to?
Originally by: Emperor Ryan
The Astarte is another story, the ship can with not much effort Top Bs Dps which is Pretty fantatic while leving room to put your effective Hp up. However Cost/Profit Wise i would run wtha Brutix because its only a bit weaker when it comes down to it. Also Great dps
"Top BS DPS"... erm. It can do *nearly* BS DPS (BS do noticeably more) while being at point blank range, and it's EHP is nothing to write home about and definitely NOT comparable to battleships.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.23 11:25:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Emperor Ryan To be honest CS are worth it if you like being on the top of your game, Especialy if Your going to be in Gang and using 3 Warefare link, However the ones such as the Abso and the Astarte are also Supurb, The Abso is a Heavy tanker+ Good Dps dealer With tackle! It also way out preforms its T1 Version
Abso is nice, but it only starts outdamaging Harb at CS V. I don't see that many people with it, tbh. Also, 3 mids is a problem; granted, if it had 4 it'd be zomgoverpowdered. It has advantage over Harb in survivability, while doing nice damage, but it brings the problems Harb doesn't - scaring away targets and being an agro magnet.
Originally by: Emperor Ryan
The Astarte is another story, the ship can with not much effort Top Bs Dps which is Pretty fantatic while leving room to put your effective Hp up.
It won't ever outdamage gankfit BS, it can come close.. but.. with pathetic range and paperthin tank. Also, doesn't have a slot for gangmod =\
I agree with Branko, CS are mostly a class of their own. They can pop everything that a tier 2 BC can, but faster. They also can fight other CSes evenly. But they're dead meat vs a battleship, just like Tier 2 BC.
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Cornette
Gallente Black Screen of Death HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.10.23 11:43:00 -
[22]
Command ships are fun in a gang. For solo you pretty much ask to get blobbed unless you have good Intel (or a falcon alt). I have a Astarte but I have not taken it out for a long time until we got into a empire war. Would I use one in 0.0...? No not really since you will be primary first.
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Murkon Salesgirl
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.10.23 11:58:00 -
[23]
This is because you cant nano them.
Now imagine HACs without nano, and a worser tank/dps than CS.
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Cornette
Gallente Black Screen of Death HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.10.23 12:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Murkon Salesgirl This is because you cant nano them.
Now imagine HACs without nano, and a worser tank/dps than CS.
I have never nano'ed anything except the Vagabond and Rapier. I'm pretty much a tanker player and I never felt the need to go faster then what tech 2 and heat gives me. So no I never used drugs, snakes or faction/officer mods to reach ludicrous speeds.
So no the reason why I don't use them in 0.0 is because
1. I can't use command modules yet.
2. Flying a 100-150 mil CS will more often then not make you primary and killed first in pretty much every fight because of the isk-value.
3. The idea of nano a CS that is made to tank is silly.
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Fistme
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:30:00 -
[25]
Would have been nice if CCP extended the BC Hp boost to you know, their tech 2 counterparts? The fact that tier2 BCs have more hp than Command Ships is rather dumb at best...
WTB BC HP increase for Commandships!
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Dracthera
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Posted - 2008.10.23 15:34:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Fistme Would have been nice if CCP extended the BC Hp boost to you know, their tech 2 counterparts? The fact that tier2 BCs have more hp than Command Ships is rather dumb at best...
WTB BC HP increase for Commandships!
The need for increased HP is greatly mitigated by the increased resistances to damage for the CSs. If I never take any damage, I could survive anything with only 1 HP on my ship. It's a balancing act.
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Fistme
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:03:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dracthera The need for increased HP is greatly mitigated by the increased resistances to damage for the CSs. If I never take any damage, I could survive anything with only 1 HP on my ship. It's a balancing act.
It has less to do with the "need" than it has to do with design consistancy. Take a gander at almost all other t2 ships and their t1 counterparts. The t2 ships almost always have more hp AND increased resistances. Field commands are an exception and it is very easy to spot because they do not share the full t2 resistances that their fleet command ships have nor do they have the increased hp over their t1 counterparts that HACs for example have... This leads them to be Tier 2 BC x 1.1...
Field Commands need a revamp. This almost undeniable fact has been known since the implementation of tier 2 BCs and the HP increase that all non t2 BCs recieved... Why does my Astarte have less hp and 1 less slot than a Myrmidon?
I think that the common argument would be. "Well if you boost them too much they are going to step on the toes of Battleships". I can understand this point of view however I do not think a minor hp increase or an extra slot would ever allow a Field Command to step on the toes of a well skilled/fit BS, the gap is just too big to be closed by such a small change. The change would be to increase the gap between t1 and t2 in the BC class to something similar displayed in all other classes of ships.
P.S. This post has nothing to do with Fleet commands as they have full t2 resists with the ability to field full racks of gang mods with bonuses. That simple fact will always ensure that Fleet Commands have a valuable role in a Fleet. |
Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:12:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Fistme
It has less to do with the "need" than it has to do with design consistancy. Take a gander at almost all other t2 ships and their t1 counterparts. The t2 ships almost always have more hp AND increased resistances. Field commands are an exception and it is very easy to spot because they do not share the full t2 resistances that their fleet command ships have nor do they have the increased hp over their t1 counterparts that HACs for example have... This leads them to be Tier 2 BC x 1.1...
Compare them to their actual T1 counterparts? Since they're derived from tier 1 BCs, the shouldn't necessarily have more raw HP than tier 2 BCs. That said, I agree that they could use some HP buff.
Originally by: Fistme
Field Commands need a revamp. This almost undeniable fact has been known since the implementation of tier 2 BCs and the HP increase that all non t2 BCs recieved... Why does my Astarte have less hp and 1 less slot than a Myrmidon?
Astarte is 7/4/6, Myrm is 6/5/6; amount of slots is equal. Also since Astarte is actually Brutix offspring.. that's a void arguement really.
What would be nice is giving Field Commands the ability to fit GAMs without any fitting reqs, would be a nice difference to Tier 2 BCs. There's a problem though - Astarte will need a hi-slot addition for this to come true.. which will warrant slot additions to other Field Commands, which may lead to balance issues yadda-yadda. |
Fistme
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Posted - 2008.10.23 17:18:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Astarte is 7/4/6, Myrm is 6/5/6; amount of slots is equal. Also since Astarte is actually Brutix offspring.. that's a void arguement really.
What would be nice is giving Field Commands the ability to fit GAMs without any fitting reqs, would be a nice difference to Tier 2 BCs. There's a problem though - Astarte will need a hi-slot addition for this to come true.. which will warrant slot additions to other Field Commands, which may lead to balance issues yadda-yadda.
The 1 slot I am talking about is a rig slot, and yes I do consider that 1 less slot. As for comparing the Astarte to the Myrmidon, maybee I could have used the Brutix instead to keep more consistancy with the argument however the main point is still there. The Brutix has more hp than the Astarte and the same number of slots (rig slot again).
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Kebast
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Posted - 2008.10.23 20:01:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Kebast on 23/10/2008 20:02:26 Some good discussion here. I definitely agree that the Field CS ships need a bit of a boost or at least a build cost adjustment. I love my Abso, but I don't PVP in it. The added benefit over the Harbinger just isn't worth the cost. |
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