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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.17 19:57:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Shereza Topics like this make me feel warm and fuzzy inside.
They make me glad that I have one character who's generalized to a fault and so subsequently can't really be "nerfed" without "nerfing" every ship in the game. I'm also glad that my minmatar-oriented character is also my R&D character and that my other character is amarr-oriented.
They also make me glad that I see no reason to spazz out like some idiot just because art imitates life and is being unfair to the money and time I invested in something which, had I put any thought into it in the first place, I'd've realized probably wouldn't be a good long-term investment.
This is a game, people play games to have fun. People have fun by breaking mechanics. CCP doesn't have fun when this happens so they fix said mechanics or make it so that we can't break them. Deal with it or quit. Just whining about this sort of thing constantly is pathetic.
Frankly, I've only been playing for 2 years but I have yet to see any nerf, downgrade, or tweak be even half as bad as some people make them out to be after they're put into effect or a tenth as bad as people make them out to be when they're on the drawing board.
Of course I rather suppose that's the nature of players, letting Chicken Little Syndrone run amock and all that.
My disillusionment with Eve has remarkably little to do with this nerf, actually. If I could grab my balls and power through the next PVE grind I'd come out fine almost no matter what happens in this nerf.
The problem for me is that I don't PVE in Eve makes me want to crush kittens and gouge my eyeballs out with an electric tooth brush. Eh, there's alot more problems with Eve than that, including the increasing prevalence of blobs (I do it too on occasion), an emphasis away from small gang combat (falcon/range boosts, close range ganks), POS warfare, sov mechanics, faction warfare flop, etc.
I don't *really* have anything against CCP, but it's been several months since I had a good PVP fight in Eve... mostly due to the "perfect" tactics of "fit plates and friends". How can I have a nice 5v5, or even a nice 10v10? What happens when I lose (because everyone does eventually)? Then I get relegated to a month's worth of WTFSUCK grinding.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.17 19:58:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Raymond Sterns
Uh, Raven is the second smallest Battleship... (Besides the Scorpion)
Ships
:) This is as good of an RP reason as any, but it has nothing to do with game balance.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.10.17 20:01:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Raymond Sterns
Uh, Raven is the second smallest Battleship... (Besides the Scorpion)
Ships
:) This is as good of an RP reason as any, but it has nothing to do with game balance.
-Liang
Ain't my fault you like to duct-tape useless shit to your ship. _ Hooray for shitty marketing moves.
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Shereza
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Posted - 2008.10.17 20:48:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Raymond Sterns Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 17/10/2008 19:48:23
Originally by: Lili Lu Other thread says latest test server BS mass stats- Raven-99 Typhoon-103
SERIOUSLY WTF IS THAT??!!!
HOW DOES THAT FIT ANY BACKSTORY OR TIER RATIONALE?!
Uh, Raven is the second smallest Battleship... (Besides the Scorpion)
Ships
Which is fine, except for one small problem. Mass and size are only loosely connected.
A 5m3 block of lead weighs more than a 5m3 box of styrofoam peanuts after all and a 5m3 block of neutronium dropped from orbit could probably take out a fair-sized town. ____________________
Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval. |
Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.10.17 23:16:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Shereza
Originally by: Raymond Sterns Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 17/10/2008 19:48:23
Originally by: Lili Lu Other thread says latest test server BS mass stats- Raven-99 Typhoon-103
SERIOUSLY WTF IS THAT??!!!
HOW DOES THAT FIT ANY BACKSTORY OR TIER RATIONALE?!
Uh, Raven is the second smallest Battleship... (Besides the Scorpion)
Ships
Which is fine, except for one small problem. Mass and size are only loosely connected.
A 5m3 block of lead weighs more than a 5m3 box of styrofoam peanuts after all and a 5m3 block of neutronium dropped from orbit could probably take out a fair-sized town.
We're not flying lead cubes and a bunch of Styrofoam peanuts, though. A small car is usually lighter than a large car, mainly because they usually have the same materials/parts, just different quantities (less for the smaller car, more for the larger car). _ Hooray for shitty marketing moves.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.18 00:21:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Raymond Sterns
We're not flying lead cubes and a bunch of Styrofoam peanuts, though. A small car is usually lighter than a large car, mainly because they usually have the same materials/parts, just different quantities (less for the smaller car, more for the larger car).
For your argument to hold water, you'd have to look at the relative construction materials, and the weight/mass of each, and even then you're on shakey ground because Caldari may need all of their 'heavy' materials while Minmatar need just a portion of each.
;-)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.10.18 01:29:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Raymond Sterns
We're not flying lead cubes and a bunch of Styrofoam peanuts, though. A small car is usually lighter than a large car, mainly because they usually have the same materials/parts, just different quantities (less for the smaller car, more for the larger car).
For your argument to hold water, you'd have to look at the relative construction materials, and the weight/mass of each, and even then you're on shakey ground because Caldari may need all of their 'heavy' materials while Minmatar need just a portion of each.
;-)
-Liang
Caldari tech is based around these: Gravimetric Sensor Cluster
Graviton Reactor
Graviton Pulse Generator
Wikipedia: Gravitons
Clearly Caldari ships must have a higher mass, because their reactors are gravity based, and their sensor systems are too. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
XFreedomX
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Posted - 2008.10.18 01:34:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Raymond Sterns Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 17/10/2008 19:48:23
Originally by: Lili Lu Other thread says latest test server BS mass stats- Raven-99 Typhoon-103
SERIOUSLY WTF IS THAT??!!!
HOW DOES THAT FIT ANY BACKSTORY OR TIER RATIONALE?!
Uh, Raven is the second smallest Battleship... (Besides the Scorpion)
Ships
I see only indication of length and not size in the ".jpg" file.
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Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.10.18 02:02:00 -
[69]
Originally by: XFreedomX
Originally by: Raymond Sterns Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 17/10/2008 19:48:23
Originally by: Lili Lu Other thread says latest test server BS mass stats- Raven-99 Typhoon-103
SERIOUSLY WTF IS THAT??!!!
HOW DOES THAT FIT ANY BACKSTORY OR TIER RATIONALE?!
Uh, Raven is the second smallest Battleship... (Besides the Scorpion)
Ships
I see only indication of length and not size in the ".jpg" file.
Then get on Sisi and put them side by side you picky bastard. sheesh. _ Hooray for shitty marketing moves.
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Journan DuSol
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Posted - 2008.10.18 02:21:00 -
[70]
Wasn't there some scaling mistake made somewhen and caldari ships are actually only half as big as they should be?
Or was this just a "joke", as CCP should have easily been able to fix it.
On a sidenote. Are you guys aware that you're talking about the volume yet using a 2D-chart? I'm pretty positive that the raven is more voluminous than the tempest, and, the tempest does have more framework.
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Tsual
Minmatar Iikhelahii khulemah'lal
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Posted - 2008.10.18 02:35:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Raymond Sterns Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 17/10/2008 19:48:23
Originally by: Lili Lu Other thread says latest test server BS mass stats- Raven-99 Typhoon-103
SERIOUSLY WTF IS THAT??!!!
HOW DOES THAT FIT ANY BACKSTORY OR TIER RATIONALE?!
Uh, Raven is the second smallest Battleship... (Besides the Scorpion)
Ships
Not a pvp pilot here but somehow when comparing that length graph and the mass (in kilotons with the current sisi ones)
- Hyperion mass: 100.2kt length: 1700m
- Megathron mass:98.4kt length: 1017m
- Dominix mass: 97.1kt length: 886m
- Abaddon mass:103.2kt length 1243
- Apoc mass:97.1kt length:1608m
- Armageddon mass: 105.2kt legnth: 1047m
- Maelstrom mass: 103.6kt legnth: 1408m
- Tempest mass: 103.3kt length: 996m
- Typhoon mass: 103.6kt length: 988m
- Rokh mass: 105.3kt length: 1007m
- Raven mass: 99.3kt length: 726m
- Scorpion mass: 103.6kt length: 425m <- about fourth the length yet heavier then the hyperion
I recon caldari electronics must be very densly packed ... or the ecm geeks in the ecm control room should go on a diet.
Any one else got some funny more or less scientific explanations?
well nevermind
******************** Moral is only usefull so far as society demands it from one to accept his presence.
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Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.10.18 03:03:00 -
[72]
I guess that settles it. All other ships are full of styrofoam peanuts.
Thread over. _ Hooray for shitty marketing moves.
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2008.10.18 03:05:00 -
[73]
Width:
Tempest = 10m Raven = 1000m
hmm...
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Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.10.18 03:14:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 18/10/2008 03:16:14
Originally by: XFreedomX Width:
Tempest = 10m Raven = 1000m
hmm...
Um, flip the tempest on it's side? The raven is still just a wee-bit more than 2/3 of the tempest.
Also, why are we still arguing Caldari Ship's masses when Gallente and Amarr are the Armor Tanking races with light ships. _ Hooray for shitty marketing moves.
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2008.10.18 03:21:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Raymond Sterns Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 18/10/2008 03:16:14
Originally by: XFreedomX Width:
Tempest = 10m Raven = 1000m
hmm...
Um, flip the tempest on it's side? The raven is still just a wee-bit more than 2/3 of the tempest.
Also, why are we still arguing Caldari Ship's masses when Gallente and Amarr are the Armor Tanking races with light ships.
Flip the tempest on its side....
Height:
Tempest = 10m Raven = 300m
hmmm....
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2008.10.18 03:27:00 -
[76]
Bottem line,
Mass/Agility wise:
Minmatar should be the lightest most agile follow by gallente then caldari and finally Amarr... exception can be made for ships which specialized in speed or agility in their class... such as deimos should be faster and more agile then muninn for example.
Any other order is just CCP grabing number out of their other hole.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.10.18 03:28:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Liang Nuren What happens when I lose (because everyone does eventually)? Then I get relegated to a month's worth of WTFSUCK grinding.
-Liang
Actually, you can make passable ISK from PvP piracy: (1) Ransom when/if possible. (2) Don't fly battleships except when you really need a BS. (3) If you've got more then 5-6 people in gang, you're not going to make a lot of ISK (short of really epic kills or killing POSes with a billion worth of labs). (4) Don't fly T2 cruisers unless it's a cloaking recon (too small engagement envelope for the price). (5) Killing haulers is your friend. Most of them are loaded with crap (or just cargo expanders), but now and then you hit jackpot.
I don't find ISK to be a problem in EVE, really.
The thing which really ****ed me off was logging on SISI some 4-5 days ago, and realizing that they've ignored all the valid feedback, and not only that - the new SISI changes really push EVE yet more into 'must have friends to fight' territory (speed nerf being a huge boost to ranged ships, plus solo tackle being totally nerfed*, and now you can't do full missile damage solo either). Why they want to do this, I have no clue, I guess it must be because of all the people soloing in EvE and refusing to fly in gangs
*While tacklers for gangs are more effective then ever, and the idea to remove stacking penalities from webs is just total win, seriously.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
EinaruS
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2008.10.18 03:51:00 -
[78]
Originally by: James Lyrus OP is trolling.
Anyone who thinks their ships will be worthless when they're not doing 10km/sec, really does need to stop, hit themselves in the face with a cluebat a few times, and then learn how to play EVE.
Because really. Combat worked fine before rigs became prevalent, and ship speeds were pretty much all below 5km/sec, even the inties.
That is not true. having had a speed char for quite a while i think i can say with much certainty, speed was maybe a little lower but not that slow as you proclaim. the mass reduction rigs that came with the rigs however paved the way for nanophoons and nanowhatever. but that's not really the point i'm trying to make. (this isn't directed at you particularily James only the above part) Smart players will always play at the edge of what's morally "fair" and do whatever it takes to win, you can whine about speed now but soon enough you'll be whining about something else.
Amarr were overpowered, they killed dmg mods, dual mwd's were too good so they were nerfed, warp core stabs, javelin torps, sensor dampeners, hitpoints, cloaking, motherships, typhoon used to be shit, drones were too many, multispecs too powerful, then too weak and now i have no idea. Anyways Thing is as i mentioned, while there are intuitive players finding ways, even simple ones to stay ahead of others and win they will continue to do so so as well will others whine about it and thus balance will in a weird way be maintained. Still, my take on the speed nerf is that it will create an even bigger trend in using cloaking ships, in particular the recons which in time will produce a nerf.. just wait and see
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A finger...especially the middle one, is worth more than any amount of isk |
Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.10.18 04:35:00 -
[79]
Maelstrom, Machariel, Typhoon are all still going to be quite cool. Even Tempest not all bad, that fifth medslot is going to be pretty nice for an extra webifier after the web nerfs. (Tempest sucks 'n all but the patch doesn't make it any worse than it already was)
Rapier/Huginn still great, Claymore still with the best bonuses, Nidhoggur the best carrier..
Wolf/Jaguar are going to be badass, much nicer than the Amarr or Caldari AFs..
Only ships Minmatar really get shafted on that I can think of are Naglfar and Hel Vagabond gets nerfed a bit sure but it'll still be one of the better HACs.
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Mire Stoude
Cash Money Brothers Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.10.18 04:44:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Mire Stoude on 18/10/2008 04:44:53 Oh snap. If CCP is giving SP reimbursements out, I seriously want all my damp training put into ECM. Kthxbye.
EDIT: Oh Wait! I may want some reimbursement for drones too, but I think that will take just a few more nerfs before they're completely useless.
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Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.10.18 05:30:00 -
[81]
Originally by: XFreedomX
Originally by: Raymond Sterns Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 18/10/2008 03:16:14
Originally by: XFreedomX Width:
Tempest = 10m Raven = 1000m
hmm...
Um, flip the tempest on it's side? The raven is still just a wee-bit more than 2/3 of the tempest.
Also, why are we still arguing Caldari Ship's masses when Gallente and Amarr are the Armor Tanking races with light ships.
Flip the tempest on its side....
Height:
Tempest = 10m Raven = 300m
hmmm....
That would make the tempest 10m by 10m. Come back and talk to me when you're not drooling and beating your chest. _ Hooray for shitty marketing moves.
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XFreedomX
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Posted - 2008.10.18 06:00:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Raymond Sterns
Originally by: XFreedomX
Originally by: Raymond Sterns Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 18/10/2008 03:16:14
Originally by: XFreedomX Width:
Tempest = 10m Raven = 1000m
hmm...
Um, flip the tempest on it's side? The raven is still just a wee-bit more than 2/3 of the tempest.
Also, why are we still arguing Caldari Ship's masses when Gallente and Amarr are the Armor Tanking races with light ships.
Flip the tempest on its side....
Height:
Tempest = 10m Raven = 300m
hmmm....
That would make the tempest 10m by 10m. Come back and talk to me when you're not drooling and beating your chest.
Hmm... I wonder who suggest we flip tempest on its side so width became height? Oh its you...
hmm... who brought the stupid .jpg file out as a reason for Raven should be faster and more agile.... you again....
I guess by your reasoning, Scorp should be just as fast and agile as an ferox?
Oh look Minmatar Dread has less length then a Hyperion!
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Raymond Sterns
Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.
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Posted - 2008.10.18 08:11:00 -
[83]
Originally by: XFreedomX
Originally by: Raymond Sterns
Originally by: XFreedomX
Originally by: Raymond Sterns Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 18/10/2008 03:16:14
Originally by: XFreedomX Width:
Tempest = 10m Raven = 1000m
hmm...
Um, flip the tempest on it's side? The raven is still just a wee-bit more than 2/3 of the tempest.
Also, why are we still arguing Caldari Ship's masses when Gallente and Amarr are the Armor Tanking races with light ships.
Flip the tempest on its side....
Height:
Tempest = 10m Raven = 300m
hmmm....
That would make the tempest 10m by 10m. Come back and talk to me when you're not drooling and beating your chest.
1. Hmm... I wonder who suggest we flip tempest on its side so width became height? Oh its you...
2. hmm... who brought the stupid .jpg file out as a reason for Raven should be faster and more agile.... you again....
3. I guess by your reasoning, Scorp should be just as fast and agile as an ferox?
Oh look Minmatar Dread has less length then a Hyperion!
Oh look, you're still beating your chest and drooling.
Let me break it down for you:
1. If the tempest is standing vertically and you flip it on it's side, height becomes width, you dolt.
2. Never did I state that the raven should be faster or more agile. I used the picture to show that the raven is substantially smaller to other battleships and that's why it had less mass. Stop twisting my point so you can falsely prove yours.
3. Now you're just ranting and raving because you seriously have no support to grab unto for your argument.
The point here should not be, "Minmitars are too heavy", it should be, "Amarr/Gallente ships are too light". _ Hooray for shitty marketing moves.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.10.18 08:20:00 -
[84]
Wait, you're serious? You're saying the top wingy bit that's like 2mm thick is what makes the Tempest so heavy? seriously?
Damn and I thought you were just ****ing about with us trying to concoct a cool excuse for the Raven to be lighter! Apparently my ******ed poster meter really needs adjusted. ;-)
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR Liang - Destro/Azazel@WAR www.kwikdeath.org |
whisk
Gallente Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.18 10:42:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Raymond Sterns
Originally by: XFreedomX
Originally by: Raymond Sterns
Originally by: XFreedomX
Originally by: Raymond Sterns Edited by: Raymond Sterns on 18/10/2008 03:16:14
Originally by: XFreedomX Width:
Tempest = 10m Raven = 1000m
hmm...
Um, flip the tempest on it's side? The raven is still just a wee-bit more than 2/3 of the tempest.
Also, why are we still arguing Caldari Ship's masses when Gallente and Amarr are the Armor Tanking races with light ships.
Flip the tempest on its side....
Height:
Tempest = 10m Raven = 300m
hmmm....
That would make the tempest 10m by 10m. Come back and talk to me when you're not drooling and beating your chest.
1. Hmm... I wonder who suggest we flip tempest on its side so width became height? Oh its you...
2. hmm... who brought the stupid .jpg file out as a reason for Raven should be faster and more agile.... you again....
3. I guess by your reasoning, Scorp should be just as fast and agile as an ferox?
Oh look Minmatar Dread has less length then a Hyperion!
Oh look, you're still beating your chest and drooling.
Let me break it down for you:
1. If the tempest is standing vertically and you flip it on it's side, height becomes width, you dolt.
2. Never did I state that the raven should be faster or more agile. I used the picture to show that the raven is substantially smaller to other battleships and that's why it had less mass. Stop twisting my point so you can falsely prove yours.
3. Now you're just ranting and raving because you seriously have no support to grab unto for your argument.
The point here should not be, "Minmitars are too heavy", it should be, "Amarr/Gallente ships are too light".
you are stupid
Adapt or Die
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Rajere
Vicious Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.18 11:46:00 -
[86]
Tier 1 Battleships:
Scorpion: Mass: 103,600,000 kg Inertia: 0.145 Speed: 94 m/s
Typhoon: Mass: 103,600,000 kg Inertia: 0.15 Speed: 130 m/s
Armageddon: Mass: 105,200,000 kg Inertia: 0.155 Speed: 105 m/s
Dominix: Mass: 97,100,000 kg Inertia: 0.16 Speed: 99 m/s
Tier 2 Battleships:
Raven: Mass: 99,300,000 kg Inertia: 0.155 Speed: 94 m/s
Tempest: Mass: 103,300,000 kg Inertia: 0.15 Speed: 120 m/s
Apocalypse: Mass: 97,100,000 kg Inertia: 0.165 Speed: 94 m/s
Megathron: Mass: 98,400,000 kg Inertia: 0.155 Speed: 105 m/s
Tier 3 Battleships:
Rokh: Mass: 105,300,000 kg Inertia: 0.16 Speed: 89 m/s
Maelstrom: Mass: 103,600,000 kg Inertia: 0.165 Speed: 94 m/s
Abaddon: Mass: 103,200,000 kg Inertia: 0.165 Speed: 89 m/s
Hyperion: Mass: 100,200,000 kg Inertia: 0.155 Speed: 110 m/s
These are all unpiloted, ie before skills. How to Fail at Eve
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Sidus Isaacs
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Posted - 2008.10.18 11:49:00 -
[87]
Originally by: goodby4u Yeah and I want my sp replaced for amarr a year ago, and for amarr 3 years ago and...
Well you get my point.
Amarr is awsome now actually.
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NeoTheo
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.10.18 11:49:00 -
[88]
matari worked before stupid speeds and nano'ing was in the game, they will also work afterwards.
stop being a friggin emoragenerd.
Dark Materials
Linkage
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.18 15:44:00 -
[89]
Does this.... BS make me look fat? Boink! |
Corstaad
Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2008.10.18 15:53:00 -
[90]
I would like to point out the fact alot of minny ships use missles skills. If they also "balance" missles its another matari nerf. My first one and half years of EvE is gutted because I did the right thing by training one race.
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