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To CVA regarding firing on Amarr Militia members.

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Author	Topic
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.10.04 19:58:00 - [31] Originally by: Feng Schui Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath Funny this, considering a fleet of about 5 pilots of CVA passed by a gatecamp from us yesterday. Being the sole pilot on the gate, with just 3 others in the system, they could have easily engaged me and taken me out...but instead they chose to continue on the way. While I am glad for getting away, I do find this questionable. Wasn't it CVA that claimed we where set as hostile to them? If we are not, then CVA does indeed owe me a ship and clone. Looking back at the discussion this does indeed seem to be the case. I think this point however is lost in this thread, except for those actually reading every reply before frantically reaching for that reply button. Diary of a pod pilot
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.04 21:02:00 - [32] While I have not been a member of CVA for several years now (PIE was one of the founding corporations of the alliance) I do share friendships with several CVA pilots. In looking at the history of the Providence region what I saw before CVA arrived on the scene a wild untamed area of space inhabited by all sort of pirate and miscreant. Terrorists running free, gatecamps at every corner, pirates shooting anything that moved. In the years since CVA moved to Providence we have seen an era of economic development, stability and security. While enemies of peace do occasionally arrive to cause trouble the stability that CVA has provided has always ensured they don't remain long. From what I've observed about the only way to get onto the CVA KOS list is to pirate or shoot a CVA pilot or ally without cause. Given that fact perhaps Slacker could tell us why they are KOS to CVA. What occured to make them KOS to the oldest and largest Amarrian loyalist alliance? I pay no heed to those whining about CVA occupying Providence and not participating in the crusade directly. Due to the rules of Concord alliances are prohibited from joining the crusade directly thus it is impossible for CVA to do so short of breaking up the alliance. Given the benefits the alliance brings to the law-abiding pilots who visit Providence and all the non-CVA people who live there and given CVAs frequent offers of assistance in supplying items to Amarrian corporations involved with the crusade they are doing what they are allowed to within the constraints of the current Concord regulations. Before the crusade began and even now how many law-abiding citizens (aka: non-pirates) make use of CVA outposts? How many are in other alliances that CVA has supported in the region in past battles when enemy alliances brought capital ships in to destroy non-CVA assets? How many have benefited by the fact CVA exists in Providence? Many. I would never presume to speak for the CVA and I am not their representative. I am merely someone who for the last four and half years have fought the Minmatar threat that has never expired despite our best efforts. In the past when terrorists setup outposts near Providence and engaged in acts of terrorism shooting ships captained by those with high Amarr standing it was not any member of this Militia today who went to the aid of those ships, who attacked the UK and their heathen allies and who seized and to this day maintain those outposts which were formerly terrorist hubs as outposts of the Empire today. It was CVA. The fact is if you have an enemy you are at war with or someone on your KOS list who has committed past transgressions against you or your allies you would be derelict in your duty not shooting them. Imagine for a moment you have a corp that for years has had negative standings to your corp, that has pirated your members and others, that has committed crimes against innocents and violated the law. Now imagine for a minute there is a crusade and suddenly this corp that has long been KOS to you joins that crusade. Are you still justified in shooting them for their past crimes and status? Or do you just wipe the slate clean, forgive all their past transgressions and welcoming them with open arms? Considering some of the criminals and pirates in Eve today I find it incredibly naive to think that any its "OK" to say they have a free pass and amnesty just for joining a crusade when the fact is anyone can join the militia as long as they're not in an active alliance. I'm sure everyone in this militia who has been a part of the history of Eve going back years has at least one corp enemy they can recall who is still considered KOS. Do you believe them joining a militia is an automatic amnesty? To put it clearly. A pirate is still a pirate when he joins the militia unless he repents and apologizes for his sins. Just my opinion. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.04 21:23:00 - [33] Quote: So CVA unwillingness to forgive and forget is interfering with war operations, is it? I must admit to being ... unsurprised. Has an apology been made for pirate activities? Have the pirates publically repented their past sins and begged God for forgivness for their sins? Have they sought diplomatic counsel with those their criminal acts affected? What has been done to seek forgiveness? I honestly do not know the details of why Slacker is KOS to CVA. I assume there is piracy or some other transgression in the Slacker "past" that caused this. I do know that just joining the militia and killing Minmatar doesn't automatically wipe the slate clean for past sins. I will provide an example. In the past pilots have joined PIE who may've had a past of less than holy actions. These pilots may've committed sins such as an act of piracy or an act of blasphemy against the holy word of God. The benefit of the IGS communications portal database is the ability search out past records and statements of others so we can weigh them carefully. I know in PIE we have many ranks you can advance thru as you see by our signature cards. One rank we have is Penitent. Main Entry: 1pen+i+tent Pronunciation: \-tənt\ Function: adjective Etymology: Amarrian, from Amarr Prime; Sarumite penitent, from Khanid paenitent-, paenitens, from present participle of paenitēre to cause regret, feel regret, perhaps from paene almost Date: Evegate era : feeling or expressing humble or regretful pain or sorrow for sins or offenses : repentant ù pen+i+tent+ly adverb I know when a pilot who has sinned approaches for appointment to my corporation we weigh the past closely. The fact is the Lord has spoken already on the future of those who have sinned. 'Which test reveals more of the soul - the test that a man will take to prove his faith. or the test that finds the man who believed his faith already proven? If you know this answer, then you also know which of these challenges bear the greatest penalty for failure, The gates of paradise will open for you one time only; woe to the soul who dares to knock twice.' -Book of Missions, 5:14, The Scriptures While the gates of paradise will not open a second time this does not mean one who has sinned should not still work to atone for that sin. God is all powerful and He must be obeyed even by those who have sinned. Seek repentence and show understanding of your sin and why you committed it and that is the first step toward coming to the side of righteousness. I spoke of this in my sermon many months ago entitled THE ROAD NOT TAKEN which described the dilema some who turned away but now seek return to the light face. Again I don't know what preciptated the fact that this group is KOS to CVA. I know if a man murdered my family then joined my ally he would still be the man who murdered my family at the end of the day. Joining my ally would make things difficult but wouldn't absolve him of his sin. But were that man to come to me and apologize, repent publically to God with true heart and beg forgiveness, recognize his sin and his failing and the fact he did turn away of his own accord. That would be another matter. While this thread is about the CVA really this applies to anyone who has sinned against anyone and their own place in God's empire. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
pyrofox Armada.	Posted - 2008.10.04 21:25:00 - [34] Originally by: Archbishop The fact is if you have an enemy you are at war with or someone on your KOS list who has committed past transgressions against you or your allies you would be derelict in your duty not shooting them. Imagine for a moment you have a corp that for years has had negative standings to your corp, that has pirated your members and others, that has committed crimes against innocents and violated the law. Now imagine for a minute there is a crusade and suddenly this corp that has long been KOS to you joins that crusade. Are you still justified in shooting them for their past crimes and status? Or do you just wipe the slate clean, forgive all their past transgressions and welcoming them with open arms? Have you ever read a history book involving the World Wars? The Allies agreed to ignore Stalin's atrocities, regarding the millions of Russian citizens he killed during his reign, just to have his aid in turning the tide against the ****s. Pick up a history book, flick through to the World Wars and STFU with your uneducated, lame opinion. KTHNXBAI
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.04 21:29:00 - [35] Quote: Have you ever read a history book involving the World Wars? The Allies agreed to ignore Stalin's atrocities, regarding the millions of Russian citizens he killed during his reign, just to have his aid in turning the tide against the ****s. Pick up a history book, flick through to the World Wars and STFU with your uneducated, lame opinion. KTHNXBA I am sorry I am not familiar with a podpilot named Stalin or "World Wars" nor am I aware of a planet nammed "Russian". Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
KtB Gallente Armada.	Posted - 2008.10.04 21:38:00 - [36] Edited by: KtB on 04/10/2008 21:38:22 ^ Or the spelling of 'named' either ey? Coat please.
Greme Amarr Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.10.04 21:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Archbishop While I have not been a member of CVA for several years now (PIE was one of the founding corporations of the alliance) One wonders why PIE left such a great and worthy alliance to find their own path in the universe? I would like to think that it was due to distaste towards what CVA became. Originally by: Archbishop I pay no heed to those whining about CVA occupying Providence and not participating in the crusade directly. Due to the rules of Concord alliances are prohibited from joining the crusade directly thus it is impossible for CVA to do so short of breaking up the alliance. Given the benefits the alliance brings to the law-abiding pilots who visit Providence and all the non-CVA people who live there... Yes, one would not want to postpone the flamboyant waving of the CVA flag for one second to help the great Amarrian Empire. I apologise for insinuating that our nation is more important than your alliance. It would disrupt NOTHING, apart from your claim to your own profit-making endeavours, to join the Militia and aid in the true fight against the Minmatar. The consequences of personal ego and profit induced battles deep into lawless space are of no concern of the general Amarrian populace, the fight in our own back yard however, is. Originally by: Archbishop How many are in other alliances that CVA has supported in the region in past battles. How many have benefited by the fact CVA exists in Providence? Well, for starters, I can think of the well known law-abiding entity of Goonswarm, whom you assisted fervently. Of course, they would never step outside the boundaries of law. Originally by: Archbishop In the past when terrorists setup outposts near Providence You ran and hid until enough mercenaries could be acquired to remove them for you? Originally by: Archbishop To put it clearly. A pirate is still a pirate when he joins the militia unless he repents and apologizes for his sins. Just my opinion. And an entity who affiliates with nullsec pirate entities are forever pirate affiliators? Thank you for clearing that up for me.
pyrofox Armada.	Posted - 2008.10.04 21:41:00 - [38] Originally by: Archbishop Quote: Have you ever read a history book involving the World Wars? The Allies agreed to ignore Stalin's atrocities, regarding the millions of Russian citizens he killed during his reign, just to have his aid in turning the tide against the ****s. Pick up a history book, flick through to the World Wars and STFU with your uneducated, lame opinion. KTHNXBA I am sorry I am not familiar with a podpilot named Stalin or "World Wars" nor am I aware of a planet nammed "Russian". Archbishop If it can be done in the Real World. You know, the place where people really die. Then it can definately be done in some internet spaceship game. So get off your pixelated high horse. Much love, Pyro
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.04 21:51:00 - [39] Quote: Originally by: Archbishop -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While I have not been a member of CVA for several years now (PIE was one of the founding corporations of the alliance) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One wonders why PIE left such a great and worthy alliance to find their own path in the universe? I would like to think that it was due to distaste towards what CVA became. Some of us yearned to return to Domain and leave the life of 0.0 lawlessness that CVA was working to tame. Several pilots left PIE to join CVA and remain in 0.0 while some CVA pilots left to join PIE and return to the Empire prime. Life in 0.0 is not for all nor should it be. PIE's focus has remained on the homeworlds while CVA's has been extending the influence of the empire into the once lawless pirate infested regions of Providence. There have also been occasions where CVA has declared war on enemies of PIE and vice-versa. When CVA took the terrorist outpost Karishal's Defiance there were PIE pilots in that fleet, PIE capital ships have often joined CVA fleets in various operations and CVA's expertise in logistical, resource and materials management has been a benefit to those of us who remained in Empire. I believe the current model has worked very well and even to this day pilots are basically free to move from one group to another. I have no doubt of the leadership of Solusar, Aralis and the rest of the CVA and consider them loyal to the core to the empire. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.04 22:01:00 - [40] Quote: It would disrupt NOTHING, apart from your claim to your own profit-making endeavours, to join the Militia and aid in the true fight against the Minmatar. The consequences of personal ego and profit induced battles deep into lawless space are of no concern of the general Amarrian populace, the fight in our own back yard however, is. I personally am not in CVA and my corporation is in the militia. I am aware of many gifts offered by the CVA to the traditional Amarr Loyalist corporations on the supply and logistics front to benefit our milita efforts. We each do our own part as we can to benefit the empire as a whole. Some like myself tend to work in the background supplying massive amounts of ships and modules to help the war effort but very little combat activity. Some are masters of the combat arena who couldn't build a frigate but have killed dozens. Some even work to secure a lawless region of space so loyalist corporations can operate POS facilities and participate in industrial operations they normally wouldn't be able to without the stability of an alliance like CVA. If a militia corporation is able to mine in 0.0 space, secure funding or moon materials to build items for the war effort is not the work of those securing that 0.0 space as valuable as the work of those actually doing the fighting? Of course it is. And how do you know that no CVA pilots have left to join militia corporations or created subsidary corporations not of the alliance so they could engage in concord sanctioned crusade activity? You don't. I would ask again exactly what did Slacker Industries do to warrant being KOS to the CVA? Since the CVA I'm aware of doesn't place people on the KOS list for no reason I assume they did something. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL

Scagga Laebetrovo Evil Bastards	Posted - 2008.10.04 22:11:00 - [41] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon This is a very refreshing thread indeed, by the way. This schadenfreude is the result of these squabbles. Stop boring holes into our shared foundation, in public at least!
Greme Amarr Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.10.04 22:13:00 - [42] Originally by: Archbishop I would ask again exactly what did Slacker Industries do to warrant being KOS to the CVA? Since the CVA I'm aware of doesn't place people on the KOS list for no reason I assume they did something. Oh I am quite certain that it was an action of privateering that preceded this standings change. However I personally know that our corporation has ignored previously set standings to accomplish the greater good. In one example, a very early adversary in our life as a corporation, the ruthless Dirty Deeds Corporation was extant as an ally when we were in aid of the Band of Brothers alliance. However, you will not see any recorded kills of a DDC member whilst this temporary alliance was in session. Perhaps we are too open minded to the lives of pod pilots, but past business transgressions do not incur a permanent mark in our books. May I also remind you that I know for a fact that the very Agents under direct employment of the Amarr member corporations delegate missions against the minmatar and gallente to pilots with low Concord standings, pilots which most likely have blown up fellow Ammarians in the realms of low security space in the past.
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.04 22:25:00 - [43] Edited by: Archbishop on 04/10/2008 22:26:28 Quote: Oh I am quite certain that it was an action of privateering that preceded this standings change. However I personally know that our corporation has ignored previously set standings to accomplish the greater good. In one example, a very early adversary in our life as a corporation, the ruthless Dirty Deeds Corporation was extant as an ally when we were in aid of the Band of Brothers alliance. However, you will not see any recorded kills of a DDC member whilst this temporary alliance was in session. I'm sure you can understand your stance of not attacking DDC in no way applies to the way other organizations treat their KOS list occupants. That said however my previous post on repentence and apology may be beneficial. I know when a new pilot to PIE has a past that is "marginal" with acts of sin the act of public repentence and apology is a most powerful image to the victim and others who view it. When someone who once turned away from the gates in essence dooming himself to oblivion per our holy scriptures turns back despite that fact and pledges their life and very soul to God and Empire I am inspired and impressed. I will delve no more into the past actions of CVA or Slacker in this case. Those who serve the empire today are to be saluted regardless of their role or manner of serving. Those who committed sin in the past should atone to their victims and repent. Sin can not be washed away by "membership" in a militia and God has spoken on the gates being closed. It is up to the sinner to take action to atone for mistakes not the victims responsibility to forgive. To those who have sinned and seek repentence I will say I am "soft" and often hope to forgive people. God is not as influenced by mans gestures as I and he has already spoken. Still it is a path worth walking. May God find your words true and your actions today worthy of His approval. May your past sins be brought forth and repented and may you step from the shadow of sin into the light of faith. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP PORTAL
BloodBird Gallente Tactical Freedom Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.04 22:25:00 - [44] Originally by: pyrofox If it can be done in the Real World. You know, the place where people really die. Then it can definately be done in some internet spaceship game. So get off your pixelated high horse. Much love, Pyro ((OOC: I'd like to inform you that whatever happened in RL or outside of this game that might serve as example to your point has NO WORTH WHATSOEVER in this pixilated spaceship game. You are NOT in the CAOD forums now, you are in the summit, an IN-CHARACTER discussion forum, and as such your argument about WW2 is completely worthless, even as a "historic fact" simply because NO KNOWN FACTS OF HISTORY SURVIVED BEYOND THE EVE-GATE. Ergo, while we all (capsuleers, aka players) know that we came from beyond the gate none knows of Earth with certainty, your arguments are worthless as a result. Now, soon, I hope, and expect; this post will be removed and yours will be edited. but I do also hope you read this and understand what I mean before that happens. Archbishop is role-playing. you should do so too, if you want to respond to him, in here. Offering you some constructive critic, thank you for your time pyrofox.)) Sig source
Ratio Legis Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.10.04 22:56:00 - [45] Edited by: Ratio Legis on 04/10/2008 22:58:11 Archbishop, you choose to ignore the parts of Greme's post that question the morality of CVA's actions and are quick to emphasize that PIE's a different entity from CVA once it came to light that their infallibility and righteousness might be somehow tarnished. Or can it be that morality and righteousness depend on the point of view and are not absolute? This is precisely the reason why it is beside the point of this topic what exactly SL and CVA did to each other in the past. Any conflict can be looked at from different perspectives, and you will not be the one to judge who is right and who is wrong. Nor is it the job of an FC to know the history of each of the pilots in his fleet with the CVA, so that he can know whether to include them in his fleet or not, as has been absurdly suggested by one of PIE's less than bright members here. You seem to take for granted that CVA is somehow more important than anybody on the Amarr side of faction warfare, and CVA is not even involved directly in it. The reality is that if tomorrow CVA disappears in smoke, FW will continue on just as it did for the last months. Another simple fact that seems lost to you that if you shoot somebody in space, you are effectively their enemy. Or are you saying the result is different if a minmatar blows an Amarr militia ship than when a CVA pilot does? You can stick your dictionaries and your repentance where the sun doesn't shine. Not morality and sermons but a nominal amount of sanity is what's needed here. If you are an idiot enough to not realize that firing on your own forces harms your war effort, or if you are selfish enough to put your own interests above the ones of the war, you have no right to call yourself a supporter. Nobody in SL cares for CVA's pardon - we'd be disappointed if our past deeds against them were forgotten that easily. We had hoped for a spark of common sense strong enough to prompt them to ignore us in the FW area of operations, but apparently we overestimated their intelligence.
Ikar Kaltin Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:02:00 - [46] Just to clear up some misconceptions. It was a Slackers Sleipner that was killed, not a Claymore. The Slackers member was not moving with an Amarr fleet but instead was moving alone from a Minmatar controlled system to an Amarr controlled system. There was no evidence that the pilot was moving as part of any militia group. CVA made no agression to Armada pilots before they were engaged by them. CVA have been around for years securing Providence for the Empire and all its citizens. Slackers have been one of many organisations to try and assault the holy Amarrian cause in Providence during this time, working with some of the most anti-Amarrian organisations currently in operation. Before you engaged in hostile actions against CVA ships you were aware of Slackers standings to CVA and publically aknowledged this fact, and yet you still chose to engage a CVA patrol several minutes after this engagement happened. I personally dont care if some pirates think they can get cheap kills by joining the militia, and if an arrogant Caldari cur thinks he is better than Amarrian warriors. We engaged a pirate, a member of a corporation which has been an enemy of the empire for a very long time. Just because some sycophants in the Navy decided to recruit some of the dredges of society to help cull some Matari dogs, it does not change our stance. Your life is what you make it. A life of piracy and privateering is not cleansed by your joining the crusade for a short time. Wraithstorm, if the Empire allows for alliances to become involved in the crusade I can assure you that the services of you and your pirate friends will only be needed for hauling garbage scows.
Greme Amarr Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:33:00 - [47] And there again is shown the CVA attitude which we have all come to know that the CVA banner itself is much holier than the banner of Amarr. Why else would you forgoe the true fight against the infidels in preference for keeping a long derided Alliance in the armpit of the galaxy, where you are of minuscule use to your Empress? Instead of fighting the minmatar in their most current dangerous state, you choose to sit back in your cushion-laiden Providence safehouse spewing words of past accomplishments, whilst ignoring the current state of affairs. Has CVA really become so engrosed in itself that it cannot see what is for the greater good of the Amarr empire?
Pezzle Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:48:00 - [48] Edited by: Pezzle on 05/10/2008 00:48:31 I would like to thank my friend Archbishop for his kind words and tireless efforts on behalf of the Empire. Indeed what he has offered here rings true. Those truly questioning the happening should read his statements carefully. Parties with questions should contact us in private comms. The CVA does not conduct diplomacy here. My response is only to clear up some manner of confusion. The notion that CVA forces are intent on disrupting the honest work of Amarr Militia forces is absurd. Slacker Industries as a whole are considered hostile because of more than two years of aggression. They have a history of piracy in the area. Beyond piracy they collaborated with forces hostile to CVA, Providence and sworn enemies of Amarr in the form of UK and others when making trouble including attacks aimed at destabilizing the region. It is also worth noting that a month before joining the Militia members of SI were engaged in piracy in Providence. Empire before Militia. We are not inclined to excuse such behavior because a group joins a friendly Militia. While others can recount in better detail on the Armada incident, a summary works. In this specific incident a lone SI ship was destroyed by CVA forces. Armada pilots were flying with him it seems and one of them attacked CVA forces several minutes later, resulting in ship losses. We do not control who the Militia members fly with. Our policy on hostiles in friendly Militias was made quite clear. Armada knows our standing and policy with SI. Armada has indicated they will treat us as hostiles. So be it. The only members of the Militia that need fear us are disguised pirates or those who announce hostile intent. That policy has not changed.
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:57:00 - [49] Originally by: pyrofox Originally by: Archbishop Quote: Have you ever read a history book involving the World Wars? The Allies agreed to ignore Stalin's atrocities, regarding the millions of Russian citizens he killed during his reign, just to have his aid in turning the tide against the ***s. Pick up a history book, flick through to the World Wars and STFU with your uneducated, lame opinion. KTHNXBA I am sorry I am not familiar with a podpilot named Stalin or "World Wars" nor am I aware of a planet nammed "Russian". Archbishop If it can be done in the Real World. You know, the place where people really die. Then it can definately be done in some internet spaceship game. So get off your pixelated high horse. Much love, Pyro winces This thread would be amusing if not by the completely strange interferences... ...every fire needs a little bit help
Greme Amarr Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.10.05 01:11:00 - [50] Though apparently pirates who suit your interests in 0.0 need not fear your delightful form of wrath?

Vlad Cetes Caldari Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.10.05 01:30:00 - [51] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin I personally dont care if some pirates think they can get cheap kills by joining the militia, and if an arrogant Caldari cur thinks he is better than Amarrian warriors. We engaged a pirate, a member of a corporation which has been an enemy of the empire for a very long time. Just because some sycophants in the Navy decided to recruit some of the dredges of society to help cull some Matari dogs, it does not change our stance. Your life is what you make it. A life of piracy and privateering is not cleansed by your joining the crusade for a short time. Wraithstorm, if the Empire allows for alliances to become involved in the crusade I can assure you that the services of you and your pirate friends will only be needed for hauling garbage scows. Individual Wraithstorm has far more ability at commanding fleets and destroying the enemy than you, Individual Kaltin. I would suggest you make peace, else you could find your pitiful assets in the Bleaks destroyed by a superior fighting force. I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature.
Lordus Mark Amarr RDK Trusting Holders	Posted - 2008.10.05 01:50:00 - [52] Originally by: Greme Though apparently pirates who suit your interests in 0.0 need not fear your delightful form of wrath? Shut up dog. Traitor. Traitor-dog!!! ******************************** RDK Trusting Holders** Need a job done? Quietly? Have a word with us.
Wraithstorm Armada.	Posted - 2008.10.05 02:09:00 - [53] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Just to clear up some misconceptions. It was a Slackers Sleipner that was killed, not a Claymore. The Slackers member was not moving with an Amarr fleet but instead was moving alone from a Minmatar controlled system to an Amarr controlled system. There was no evidence that the pilot was moving as part of any militia group. CVA made no agression to Armada pilots before they were engaged by them. CVA have been around for years securing Providence for the Empire and all its citizens. Slackers have been one of many organisations to try and assault the holy Amarrian cause in Providence during this time, working with some of the most anti-Amarrian organisations currently in operation. Before you engaged in hostile actions against CVA ships you were aware of Slackers standings to CVA and publically aknowledged this fact, and yet you still chose to engage a CVA patrol several minutes after this engagement happened. I personally dont care if some pirates think they can get cheap kills by joining the militia, and if an arrogant Caldari cur thinks he is better than Amarrian warriors. We engaged a pirate, a member of a corporation which has been an enemy of the empire for a very long time. Just because some sycophants in the Navy decided to recruit some of the dredges of society to help cull some Matari dogs, it does not change our stance. Your life is what you make it. A life of piracy and privateering is not cleansed by your joining the crusade for a short time. Wraithstorm, if the Empire allows for alliances to become involved in the crusade I can assure you that the services of you and your pirate friends will only be needed for hauling garbage scows. I stand before you as said evidence. I stated at the beginning of my post that he was in my fleet moving to linkup with us as we were enroute to engage a minmitar fleet in Amamake. You killed him, which forced me to turn my fleet around to chase you down resulting in killing one of your Drakes. I neither have stated, nor feel in state of mind superior to any Amarr fighter. We stand together in the Amarr militia as equals, and had you sense you would think before speaking to me with such disrespect. No Sir, the only one spewing arrogance is you. Our fleets have destroyed countless minmitar militia members. It was a fleet under my Command that destroyed the only 2 Minmitar Capital ships to date. It was a fleet under joint Armada/Slacker Command that formed the largest Amarr militia fleet in history. I do not gloat with the intention of puffing out my chest, I challenge the fact that you choose to ignore the many deaths inflicted to the minmitar militia at the hands of a Slacker or Armada pilot. I challenge the fact that you seem fit to justify your interfering with Militia operations to chase a Corporation, the top most contributing Corporation mind you into low sec to engage and kill them while they fight your battle for you!!! Where do I challenge CVAs accomplishments in past, and present? It IS the way of life that your Alliance cannot contribute directly to our war effort by taking part in the militia. Did Ushrakahn( sp) let that stop them from wardeccing the more prominent Amarr Militia Corporations at the time to include my own? Did that stop UK from disrupting our supplylines in Empirespace? Do not come to me and speak of your devotion to the cause when the most you have done for the Militia is send a 30 man support gang to our aid one time. While I am grateful, I would hardly call that doing more then what Armada, Slackers or any other Militia Corporation are doing to this day. You sitback in Providence and continue to cheerlead from the Corner. Let the militiamen of the Amarr Militia do your fighting for you. Yes I am Caldari fighting your so called enemies because you do not have the intestinal fortitude to do it yourself. Come, and show me up. I challenge you...
Ratio Legis Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.10.05 02:10:00 - [54] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Just to clear up some misconceptions. It was a Slackers Sleipner that was killed, not a Claymore. The point of your knitpicking in the first sentence being? The reason to be cited here this way is that on voice coms the pilot reporting your pirate attack and requesting backup from fleet erroneously said he was piloting a claymore. How does this change anything? Or is it that lacking any substantial arguments, you resort to picking on irrelevant details right from the start? Originally by: Ikar Kaltin The Slackers member was not moving with an Amarr fleet but instead was moving alone from a Minmatar controlled system to an Amarr controlled system. Do all members of CVA blobs always move together, with nobody ever getting separated from the main body? Or is this picking on details again? Trying to imply there was no way for you to guess that a militia member moving through hostile territory might have been a part of the war effort is simply a lie. As you see, he might well have been and indeed was a part of a militia fleet. Trying to disguise the hostile intent of your members as intellectual deficiency is transparent and pathetic. Originally by: Ikar Kaltin CVA have been around for years securing Providence for the Empire and all its citizens. Slackers have been one of many organisations to try and assault the holy Amarrian cause in Providence during this time, working with some of the most anti-Amarrian organisations currently in operation. You try to draw an equal sign between CVA interests and "the holy Amarrian cause", yet Providence has never been and will never be - as much as it is up to CVA - a part of the Amarr empire. There is no map that shows it so, there is no law that annexes it. Providence is ruled by CVA's arbitrary laws only - or lack thereof. And since you have no deed showing ownership of even a pebble in Providence , you have no better claim to it than any entity - for example, Slacker Industries. What makes it de facto yours are your armed forces and fortifications there - but that is no different than any pirate claiming any arbitrary piece of space by the strength of arms alone. CVA has always defended its own interests in Providence exclusively. Trying to insinuate that for SL being in Providence, doing exactly what you have always been doing there - employing the strength of your arms - is somehow a crime against the Amarr state, is laughable at best. As of our association with "anti-Amarr organizations", CVA knows very well that politics is a matter of need and rarely of choice. CVA's association with Goonswarm and TCF lately is not a cause of pride by any standards, yet we have not used it as a pretext for open hostilities in the FW area of operations. Again, you are wriggling your way around the issue, trying to draw light to details, irrelevant to the issue at hand. The facts are these - Slacker Industries has never been a part of any action, direct or indirect, aimed against the Amarr empire. SL's headquarters have been in the Amarr throne world for the past years and that should speak enough whether we want the empire harmed. On the other hand, we have been actively involved in the Amarr milita for months on end and have helped strengthen its position since we found it in tatters. We are militarily by far the single best performing entity on this theater of operations. Yet you choose to ignore that fact and instead vaguely throw words around about past associations with "anti-Amarr organizations". You are looking for a pretext and failing to find a believable one again.
Ratio Legis Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.10.05 02:11:00 - [55] Originally by: Ikar Kaltin I personally dont care if some pirates think they can get cheap kills by joining the militia So the whole Amarr militia is just getting "cheap kills" reclaiming systems lost to the Minmatar, while the valiant and competent CVA are guarding the real Amarr interests in the lawless but so important to the cause ass end of Providence? There's really nothing more you can say that illustrates better the attitude of CVA towards the militia. Originally by: Ikar Kaltin We engaged a pirate, a member of a corporation which has been an enemy of the empire for a very long time. Just because some sycophants in the Navy decided to recruit some of the dredges of society to help cull some Matari dogs, it does not change our stance. A pirate, you say? I wonder how it was your ships that ended up blinking on the overview and shot by the gate guns. You, sir, have pilots who stoop to common piracy - by offical CONCORD and empire standards, and this is a leadership endorsed behavior. Yet you call us pirates. You accuse the Navy recruiters of being incompetent and bash the recruitment policies set by the emperor, and in the same sentence try to substitute "enemy of CVA" with "enemy of the empire" and hope that nobody will notice. Your attitude towards the institutions of the empire is less than commendable, I dare say, but that's eclipsed by your mental deficiency. Trying to appeal to the patriotic sense of Amarr citizens in the same sentence where you demean the pillars of their society is hypocritic and idiotic at the same time. Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Your life is what you make it. A life of piracy and privateering is not cleansed by your joining the crusade for a short time. Wraithstorm, if the Empire allows for alliances to become involved in the crusade I can assure you that the services of you and your pirate friends will only be needed for hauling garbage scows. Incidentally, Slacker Industries - and everyone else in the Amarr militia - has been a part of the direct anti-minmatar war infinitely more time than CVA, who have never fought in this conflict in earnest. They might have skirmished with other privately sponsored pro-minmatar entities in the past, but they have never faced the republic-sponsored force in battle. Demeaning the role and threatening what's probably the best current Amarr militia fleet commander illustrates once again the deep concern and invlolvement of CVA with the interests of the Amarr state. Your threats with direct CVA involvement in the war are amusing yet insubstantial. You of all people should know how slim the chance of that happening is. Not because of any formal obstacles before alliances joining, but because CVA will never commit to an endeavor where there's no profit to be had. CVA is a private enterprise. As such - as illustrated by your emotional, yet more than a litte ineffective in achieving the goal of presenting your alliance as a patriotic entity, statement here - it has and will put its own interests before any others. The stance of righteousness and self proclaimed commitment to the cause of the Amarr empire is just a pose. Your actions expose your hypocrisy. You, sir, are a liar and a fool.
Wraithstorm Armada.	Posted - 2008.10.05 02:18:00 - [56] Originally by: Pezzle Edited by: Pezzle on 05/10/2008 00:48:31 I would like to thank my friend Archbishop for his kind words and tireless efforts on behalf of the Empire. Indeed what he has offered here rings true. Those truly questioning the happening should read his statements carefully. Parties with questions should contact us in private comms. The CVA does not conduct diplomacy here. My response is only to clear up some manner of confusion. The notion that CVA forces are intent on disrupting the honest work of Amarr Militia forces is absurd. Slacker Industries as a whole are considered hostile because of more than two years of aggression. They have a history of piracy in the area. Beyond piracy they collaborated with forces hostile to CVA, Providence and sworn enemies of Amarr in the form of UK and others when making trouble including attacks aimed at destabilizing the region. It is also worth noting that a month before joining the Militia members of SI were engaged in piracy in Providence. Empire before Militia. We are not inclined to excuse such behavior because a group joins a friendly Militia. While others can recount in better detail on the Armada incident, a summary works. In this specific incident a lone SI ship was destroyed by CVA forces. Armada pilots were flying with him it seems and one of them attacked CVA forces several minutes later, resulting in ship losses. We do not control who the Militia members fly with. Our policy on hostiles in friendly Militias was made quite clear. Armada knows our standing and policy with SI. Armada has indicated they will treat us as hostiles. So be it. The only members of the Militia that need fear us are disguised pirates or those who announce hostile intent. That policy has not changed. A more sensible post, thus deserving a sensible answer. The SL pilot killed by CVA Forces was not merely flying with Armada forces. He was flying with the entire militia in a combat fleet at the time. I do not condone whatever reason CVA has for setting SL to hostile. Armada is hostile as well though that was being worked on diplomatically. Obviously the hostilities between our two entites will likely continue. Whether intentional or not your small fleet did infact disrupt the Amarr Militia on the evening of your attack on the SL pilot. You forced us to turn around to deal with you while Minmitar docked in Amamake. I fail to see ANY justification for CVA to come into the militias Area of Operation with the intent of destroying pilots in the Amarr Militia, proven pirate or not, past aggressions or not. You are not involved in this conflict directly. You made that choice. Let us fight the battle without having to worry about having CVA gangs in the area picking off pilots who may have less then fruitful pasts with CVA and her allies in Providence...
Wraithstorm Armada.	Posted - 2008.10.05 02:26:00 - [57] Originally by: Wraithstorm Originally by: Ikar Kaltin Just to clear up some misconceptions. It was a Slackers Sleipner that was killed, not a Claymore. The Slackers member was not moving with an Amarr fleet but instead was moving alone from a Minmatar controlled system to an Amarr controlled system. There was no evidence that the pilot was moving as part of any militia group. CVA made no agression to Armada pilots before they were engaged by them. CVA have been around for years securing Providence for the Empire and all its citizens. Slackers have been one of many organisations to try and assault the holy Amarrian cause in Providence during this time, working with some of the most anti-Amarrian organisations currently in operation. Before you engaged in hostile actions against CVA ships you were aware of Slackers standings to CVA and publically aknowledged this fact, and yet you still chose to engage a CVA patrol several minutes after this engagement happened. I personally dont care if some pirates think they can get cheap kills by joining the militia, and if an arrogant Caldari cur thinks he is better than Amarrian warriors. We engaged a pirate, a member of a corporation which has been an enemy of the empire for a very long time. Just because some sycophants in the Navy decided to recruit some of the dredges of society to help cull some Matari dogs, it does not change our stance. Your life is what you make it. A life of piracy and privateering is not cleansed by your joining the crusade for a short time. Wraithstorm, if the Empire allows for alliances to become involved in the crusade I can assure you that the services of you and your pirate friends will only be needed for hauling garbage scows. I stand before you as said evidence. I stated at the beginning of my post that he was in my fleet moving to linkup with us as we were enroute to engage a minmitar fleet in Amamake. You killed him, which forced me to turn my fleet around to chase you down resulting in killing one of your Drakes. I neither have stated, nor feel in state of mind superior to any Amarr fighter. We stand together in the Amarr militia as equals, and had you sense you would think before speaking to me with such disrespect. No Sir, the only one spewing arrogance is you. Our fleets have destroyed countless minmitar militia members. It was a fleet under my Command that destroyed the only 2 Minmitar Capital ships to date. It was a fleet under joint Armada/Slacker Command that formed the largest Amarr militia fleet in history. I do not gloat with the intention of puffing out my chest, I challenge the fact that you choose to ignore the many deaths inflicted to the minmitar militia at the hands of a Slacker or Armada pilot. I challenge the fact that you seem fit to justify your interfering with Militia operations to chase a Corporation, the top most contributing Corporation mind you into low sec to engage and kill them while they fight your battle for you!!! Where do I challenge CVAs accomplishments in past, and present? It IS the way of life that your Alliance cannot contribute directly to our war effort by taking part in the militia. Did Ushrakahn( sp) let that stop them from wardeccing the more prominent Amarr Militia Corporations at the time to include my own? Did that stop UK from disrupting our supplylines in Empirespace? Do not come to me and speak of your devotion to the cause when the most you have done for the Militia is send a 30 man support gang to our aid one time. While I am grateful, I would hardly call that doing more then what Armada, Slackers or any other Militia Corporation are doing to this day. You sitback in Providence and continue to cheerlead from the Corner. Let the militiamen of the Amarr Militia do your fighting for you. Yes I am Caldari fighting your enemies because you do not have the intestinal fortitude to do it yourself. Come, and show me up. I challenge you...
Revan Neferis Amarr The Archaeus of Blood	Posted - 2008.10.05 02:36:00 - [58] Originally by: Wraithstorm No Sir, the only one spewing arrogance is you. Our fleets have destroyed countless minmitar militia members. It was a fleet under my Command that destroyed the only 2 Minmitar Capital ships to date. It was a fleet under joint Armada/Slacker Command that formed the largest Amarr militia fleet in history. I do not gloat with the intention of puffing out my chest, I challenge the fact that you choose to ignore the many deaths inflicted to the minmitar militia at the hands of a Slacker or Armada pilot. I challenge the fact that you seem fit to justify your interfering with Militia operations to chase a Corporation, the top most contributing Corporation mind you into low sec to engage and kill them while they fight your battle for you!!! Interesting. It seems to me that your efforts would be better recognized and recompensed if you were to to make the amarr taste from their own lack of vision. Obviously you have a capable organization... and much better ways to make it prosper other than fighting a war for those who don't even care. There is a term called blue piracy and another called mercenary services. If Armada and friends would be interested to discuss further details, I'm more than pleased to indulge a private talk about it. If not, I'll continue observing. ...every fire needs a little bit help
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.05 03:13:00 - [59] Setting aside the actions of a CVA patrol (which were in accordance with publicly announced CVA intentions towards entities with "red" standing joining the Imperial Crusade, my own cooperation with Slackers notwithstanding...) It's interesting to me how questions of CVA's loyalty always come up in discussions concerning the Imperial Crusade. While CVA pushes the borders of the Empire into Providence and offers kind words to the Imperial Crusade on their successes in the Bleaklands, we continue to recieve nothing but flak for our efforts in Providence from members of the Imperial Crusade. The Holy Empire is finding strategic success on two fronts... ...and we're at each others' throats over who's doing more. Beautiful.
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.10.05 03:28:00 - [60] Originally by: Garreck ...and we're at each others' throats over who's doing more. Beautiful. Couldn't agree more. ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander

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