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Elections - not soon enough.

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Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.05 01:01:00 - [31] Ok.. Originally by: Miz Cenuij Also prior to any meeting the player base would be aware of the agenda's 5 key points and as such could fairly expect feedback on said points afterwards, with clear action points and accountabilities for such. an agenda is posted before the meeting, agenda items need to be submitted to the chair by Friday (for a Sunday meeting) so that this is possible. The agenda can be found in the forum below us. After meeting minutes are also posted (as for hosting of such, I'm still waiting for a CCP minutes page update) in the same thread. Unfortunately action points are hard to put in as the CSM doesn't know the action CCP will take until the topics are submitted to CCP and they get a response back. As many have pointed out, CSM is more a vetting process of what topics are raised with CCP on behalf of the players rather than a 'task force' of fixing things themselves. Asking CSM to 'action' things is pointless - they can't. Quote: As it stands right now, the CSM can select at will which of the hundreds of subjects on these forums that they wish to talk about and ignore those they do not. Invariably they have chosen subjects which further their own ends. CSM can select their own topics to champion, but the public can champion their own topics too. If a topic gets enough 'thumbs up' votes, it's automatically added to the agenda as per the rules governing the CSM. Quote: Further detailed feedback (as demonstrated above) has not been forthcoming from the amateurs currently within the CSM. All we receive are edited minutes of their meetings, and a dev blog which has failed to list so much as 1 acheivment the CSM has driven through. The edited minutes are there for the reason that if unedited, they would include a whole bunch of irrelevant side chatter (last meeting included an entire conversation about Nero electing a horse to be a senator in the Roman council). They also need to be checked for things that may be covered by an NDA, so as such, are edited by necessity rather than in any attempt to 'keep secrets'. As for the dev blog - a lot of CSM people think the same thing as you, a list of what has been put forward by them and inserted into the CCP production pipeline would have been extremely nice to show the player base, CCP thought it shouldn't. A way to do so was discussed fairly intensively at the CCP/CSM meeting last night/yesterday. On a more general topic - I agree that the transparency and lack of communication of the CSM is a major issue, but it is slowly being resolved. I expect the next CSM session will run a lot more smoothly due to the efforts of the current CSM. ---------------------- CSM 08 Blog
Arithron Gallente Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.05 02:00:00 - [32] The next CSM will learn from the mistakes of the past...transparency and discussion will be key to the next CSM being a success. That's not to say the current CSM haven't done a good job! Many issues raised with CCP, some of which will shape planning and inform design in the coming year! There are many players committed to making the CSM the success it should be (myself included), and we take the job of representing player views and issues seriously. Vote for one of us! Take care, Arithron Better to be a live dog than a dead lion...
ellie mayer	Posted - 2008.10.05 07:09:00 - [33] Originally by: Omber Zombie CSM can select their own topics to champion, but the public can champion their own topics too. If a topic gets enough 'thumbs up' votes, it's automatically added to the agenda as per the rules governing the CSM. Not quite. The monster truck thread definately got enough thumbs up and as far as i'm aware was never taken to CCP though i admit i may be wrong but seem to remember csm's throwing it out before. Now i'm not suggesting for one minuite that this should be in game BUT it should of been taken to CCP and they should of thrown it out as it starts a precedent for CSM overuling the player base. Originally by: Omber Zombie The edited minutes are there for the reason that if unedited, they would include a whole bunch of irrelevant side chatter (last meeting included an entire conversation about Nero electing a horse to be a senator in the Roman council). That is a chatlog and not minutes, minuites are what is in fact posted even though they call them edited minutes, minutes by their definition are the important parts picked out of the meeting and i dare say Nero's nag would have no place. On a side note i did notice on the forum's the chair refer to one or two of the council members by thier full title and at least another on the same page by a shortened version. While may not seem important, it could look as a certain favoritism to a member. We found this on my local council which i'm on, so we got in the habit of calling other members by thier title in the meetings and this also helped distance any comments made as being more in personal as we knew several of each other in personal life.
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.05 09:51:00 - [34] Yeah I dont have much faith in the current CSM, though I wouldnt have faith in any other CSM election either. Personally, ive always wondered if I could actually be elected if I ran, but sadly I dont have enough time on my hands for that kinda thing....
Dierdra Vaal Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.10.05 10:28:00 - [35] Originally by: ellie mayer Originally by: Omber Zombie CSM can select their own topics to champion, but the public can champion their own topics too. If a topic gets enough 'thumbs up' votes, it's automatically added to the agenda as per the rules governing the CSM. Not quite. The monster truck thread definately got enough thumbs up and as far as i'm aware was never taken to CCP though i admit i may be wrong but seem to remember csm's throwing it out before. high support counts means it automatically makes it onto the CSM agenda. it does NOT mean it automatically goes to CCP. The monstertrucks issue was put on the agenda because of the high support count, and then promptly voted down because its ridiculous and not worth the time in the rare CSM/CCP meetings. Training Director :: EVE University CSM Representative
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.10.05 11:10:00 - [36] The primary function for this CSM Board was to help define the process and practices of future CSM Board. With a majority of the "first times" encountered, assessed and addressed, future CSM Boards can then properly focus on it's elected business. I'm not a fan of the CSM itself, nor many on it, however with that said I'm not expecting much from them and I'm not going out of my way to bother (with) them either. You don't like this process, don't partake. No sweat off my back. Note: I imagine somewhere in Iceland there is a version of Dogbert at CCP offices laughing his head off. "See, we gave them the CSM to moan about and look at them waste their energy attacking each other instead of us. Moronic lemmings never fail you!" To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Mara Devortex	Posted - 2008.10.05 13:56:00 - [37] Lets not forget that CCP has very publicly patted themselves on the back for implementing the whole CSM concept..it would seem rather foolish for them PR wise to then do anything to tarnish that..so the whole arguement about CSM becoming irrelevant would only come from the player base failing to utilize it wisely rather than CCP failing to be responsive to it. Like any democratic society the real responsibility comes from the voters. Choose wisely and if you dont get what you wanted..did you realy want it in the first place..Food for thought.
Serenity Steele Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information	Posted - 2008.10.05 14:48:00 - [38] Edited by: Serenity Steele on 05/10/2008 14:49:01 Hey Miz, thankyou for a highly amusing thread. The harsh reality is however that the EVE Forums are not a good representation of the player base. I've run 2 general EVE surveys now, and each one has clearly shown that the population of EVE do not think the same way as forum posters such as yourself. The irony is that the CSM topics are raised via these forums, so any good CSM will actually raise additional topics not on the list here, through in-game discussions and other information sources. As for the first CSM being a farce; It's by no means the best functioning CSM I hope to see, but on the other hand, it could have gone significantly worse. So while I'm not able to say I'm proud of the 1st CSMs cohesion, I am pleased that nothing EVE Destroying made it to CCP and we've got through a majority of ground work for future CSMs, both as CSM operating rules and setting our expectations with CCP. ≡v≡ Strategic Maps in Eve-Online Store \| eve-maps.com
Miz Cenuij	Posted - 2008.10.06 21:18:00 - [39] Edited by: Miz Cenuij on 06/10/2008 21:19:49 Originally by: Omber Zombie Ok.. Asking CSM to 'action' things is pointless - they can't. The edited minutes are there for the reason that if unedited, they would include a whole bunch of irrelevant side chatter (last meeting included an entire conversation about Nero electing a horse to be a senator in the Roman council). On a more general topic - I agree that the transparency and lack of communication of the CSM is a major issue. So we agree on 3 issues then... 1 - The CSM cannot action anything and is therefore a redundant process, if they cannot action anything and the DEV blog in which thier achievements was listed was essentialy empty, it is somewhat of a waste of time. 2 - Despite the fact that in many threads the CSM claim that they do not have time to cover many issues, in your own words they waste time on "a whole bunch of irrelevant side chatter". 3 - The lack of transparency forthcoming from the CSM is a major issue. Glad we see eye to eye on that then. "Men are going to die... and i'm going to kill them"
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.06 21:51:00 - [40] Originally by: Miz Cenuij 1 - The CSM cannot action anything and is therefore a redundant process, if they cannot action anything and the DEV blog in which thier achievements was listed was essentialy empty, it is somewhat of a waste of time. its an advisory council for players to give advice to ccp - not sure what else you expected? The "achievements" for this CSM will be: A) setting up the process, B) making it work, C) promoting issues which will influence and prioritize game development cycles. If you want a quick win its not going to happen. Devs don't snap their fingers and implement fully prototyped and tested game alterations in 5 months flat - just doesn't work like that. You'll see the in-game effects of the first CSM's advocacy beginning to happen next year by which point some of us won't be in offense any more. Quote: 2 - Despite the fact that in many threads the CSM claim that they do not have time to cover many issues, in your own words they waste time on "a whole bunch of irrelevant side chatter". I've certainly had the time to cover and advocate every issue I've considered to be important in this first term. I think most of the other CSM's will be able to say the same. Ultimately we've debated and advocated a whole slew of issues and got some real progress on influencing the future development path for the game. Sure there are some disappointments - I'll cover some of mine in my final assessment posts at the end of the term - but there have been some good accomplishments and end of the day I'm pretty happy with the performance of a good number of the CSM delegates and alternates who have aided the process. Quote: 3 - The lack of transparency forthcoming from the CSM is a major issue. Public chatlogs of our meetings? Minutes from the CSM/CCP discussions? Public thread advocacy? Hell, I've even had chatlogs from private channels and 3rd party forums brought up as smear and scandal material. I think its been pretty transparent and ultimately I'm going to be posting a summary of my activities on the CSM as I leave office listing all the issues I promoted and why, and a full voting record. All the meetings I chaired will be on the public record as chatlogs and I'll be extremely open about what I think worked and what didn't work in this inaugural session. ... nothing ever burns down by itself

Drake Draconis Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.06 22:28:00 - [41] Originally by: Serenity Steele Edited by: Serenity Steele on 05/10/2008 14:49:01 Hey Miz, thankyou for a highly amusing thread. The harsh reality is however that the EVE Forums are not a good representation of the player base. I've run 2 general EVE surveys now, and each one has clearly shown that the population of EVE do not think the same way as forum posters such as yourself. The irony is that the CSM topics are raised via these forums, so any good CSM will actually raise additional topics not on the list here, through in-game discussions and other information sources. As for the first CSM being a farce; It's by no means the best functioning CSM I hope to see, but on the other hand, it could have gone significantly worse. So while I'm not able to say I'm proud of the 1st CSMs cohesion, I am pleased that nothing EVE Destroying made it to CCP and we've got through a majority of ground work for future CSMs, both as CSM operating rules and setting our expectations with CCP. /applauds /thumbs up We need more people like him.
Miz Cenuij	Posted - 2008.10.07 02:38:00 - [42] glad to hear your not standing again. One less corrupt member. "Men are going to die... and i'm going to kill them"
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.07 06:13:00 - [43] Jade actually covered most of this but... Originally by: Miz Cenuij So we agree on 3 issues then... 1 - The CSM cannot action anything and is therefore a redundant process, if they cannot action anything and the DEV blog in which thier achievements was listed was essentialy empty, it is somewhat of a waste of time. This has been raised with CCP, and their POV is that listing accomplishments sets a bad precedent. I personally don't agree with that POV, and I've said that to them. Hopefully this will change. Quote: 2 - Despite the fact that in many threads the CSM claim that they do not have time to cover many issues, in your own words they waste time on "a whole bunch of irrelevant side chatter". the irrelevent side chatter happens between meetings and topics under discussion (toilet breaks, food breaks etc.). It has no impact on the time spent on topics. Quote: 3 - The lack of transparency forthcoming from the CSM is a major issue. No the lack of transparency of what the CSM has discussed with CCP and it's outcome/timeline to implementation is a big issue. As jade pointed out, all the meeting records are publicly available from the CSM, I have a large issue with the lack of support from CCP (hosting of minutes, lack of forum until very recently, 3rd party providers of communications) which are all helping to cause people to question what the CSM has achieved and whether CCP actually cares about the CSM due to only the CSM people disseminating information which people like yourself consider biased or corrupt. It's a rock and a hard place situation - CSM posts stuff, and people scream bias and corruption. CCP post stuff and people scream that they aren't listening to CSM. We need something to bridge that gap. That's my transparency issue. ---------------------- CSM 08 Blog
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.10.07 09:00:00 - [44] Makes you wonder why CCP e-mail surveys to people who gave up their accounts and is rather reluctant when it comes to communicating with CSM.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.07 09:03:00 - [45] Originally by: Jade Constantine PS. This thread should be in Jita Park rather than assembly hall. This?
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.08 03:35:00 - [46] What gave you the impression that only SF cared about the various FW proposals? In most cases, I saw support from numerous people representing many corps or alliances both inside and outside of FW. One of my biggest issues is granting access in some manner to FW to pilots in alliances. I appreciate having members of the CSM support this issue, one which is supported heavily by a wide variety of RP alliances on both sides of the war, including corps in FW (17TW, K'S, Heretics, PIE) and alliances not (yet) in FW (CVA, VV, U'K, EM), to name just a few. Given that FW issues affects around 20k participants, and includes the interests of thousands more non-participants, how is it 'abusive' or 'corrupt' to represent the wishes of such a large constituency? Also, given that Star Fraction have positioned themselves as hostile toward all four factions, how do you imagine that any mechanics improving FW would benefit them in any way, except possibly to generate more interest in FW and therefore expand their target base? I'm not sure exactly what your 'issue' is, but whatever it is, consider it /unsigned -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.08 03:43:00 - [47] Originally by: Becq Starforged What gave you the impression that only SF cared about the various FW proposals? In most cases, I saw support from numerous people representing many corps or alliances both inside and outside of FW. One of my biggest issues is granting access in some manner to FW to pilots in alliances. I appreciate having members of the CSM support this issue, one which is supported heavily by a wide variety of RP alliances on both sides of the war, including corps in FW (17TW, K'S, Heretics, PIE) and alliances not (yet) in FW (CVA, VV, U'K, EM), to name just a few. Given that FW issues affects around 20k participants, and includes the interests of thousands more non-participants, how is it 'abusive' or 'corrupt' to represent the wishes of such a large constituency? Also, given that Star Fraction have positioned themselves as hostile toward all four factions, how do you imagine that any mechanics improving FW would benefit them in any way, except possibly to generate more interest in FW and therefore expand their target base? I'm not sure exactly what your 'issue' is, but whatever it is, consider it /unsigned I don't remember the tally of the exact vote but IIRC the entire council was behind allowing alliances into FW... Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!

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