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Beletre
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.30 14:02:00 -
[1]
Various other discussions have gotten me to thinking about the various values of the assorted empires. Naturally, each is a complex organism of individuals, each complex unto themselves, and thus cannot be accurately surmised in simple terms.
However, in what is hopefully only mild inaccuracy, it appears the Amarr would submit the ego of the individual to the greater glory of God. The State, in turn, places the good of the State as the highest goal. And the Federation places the freedoms of the individual as the most important value.
I personally agree with none of these views, though I sympathize the most with the views of the Federation.
As for the Republic however.... I confess I don't understand them at all. Such is my own flaw, I admit. I have only viewed the Minmatar as a light side to the dark coin of Amarrian slavery. An oppressed victim with no inherant traits unto themselves. Logically, I know this isn't the case, but on a practical level I've never explored the ideals and values of the Republic beyond their role as repressed slaves.
I'd like to change that. I'd like to understand the ways and ideas of the Republic, and thus ask for other pilots to share their understandings and views. Naturally the greatest intrest goes to those who are indeed a part of the Republic, be it a typical role or non-standard. And fo course views of those from outside the Republic are also welcome, if only for a contrast of perspective.
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Beletre
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.30 14:02:00 -
[2]
Various other discussions have gotten me to thinking about the various values of the assorted empires. Naturally, each is a complex organism of individuals, each complex unto themselves, and thus cannot be accurately surmised in simple terms.
However, in what is hopefully only mild inaccuracy, it appears the Amarr would submit the ego of the individual to the greater glory of God. The State, in turn, places the good of the State as the highest goal. And the Federation places the freedoms of the individual as the most important value.
I personally agree with none of these views, though I sympathize the most with the views of the Federation.
As for the Republic however.... I confess I don't understand them at all. Such is my own flaw, I admit. I have only viewed the Minmatar as a light side to the dark coin of Amarrian slavery. An oppressed victim with no inherant traits unto themselves. Logically, I know this isn't the case, but on a practical level I've never explored the ideals and values of the Republic beyond their role as repressed slaves.
I'd like to change that. I'd like to understand the ways and ideas of the Republic, and thus ask for other pilots to share their understandings and views. Naturally the greatest intrest goes to those who are indeed a part of the Republic, be it a typical role or non-standard. And fo course views of those from outside the Republic are also welcome, if only for a contrast of perspective. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.09.30 14:17:00 -
[3]
As far as I understand, what makes the Minmatar as people unique is that we are a people of clans and tribes.
It is no wonder you are puzzled where you try to classify like you do the other nations, by whether we celebrate the individual or submit him to the nation. This question in its simplest form does not apply to the Minmatar people. We do both.
For most Minmatar, an individual alone is nothing. What makes a person is not just his or her own deeds, but also those of his or her people - family, clan, tribe, nation; friends and allies; leaders and followers. We are all brothers and sisters, and while we desire to be free, we desire to be free together.
When we speak of freedom we do not mean "freedom" from other people the same way that it is my impression the Gallenteans do. We mean that government should be where it belongs to: nation should not interfere with what is internal to one tribe; tribe should not interfere with what is internal to one clan; clan should not interfere with what is internal to one family; and family should not interfere with what are a person's private thoughts.
Allegiances and kinship. If you start operating on those concepts, instead of the individual or the collective, you can start to make sense of what makes Minmatar with all our myriads of beliefs and customs one nation.
The Republic, in itself, is nothing but an alliance of four (soon, we hope, more) tribes.
--
Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.09.30 14:17:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 30/09/2008 14:17:44
As far as I understand, what makes the Minmatar as people unique is that we are a people of clans and tribes.
It is no wonder you are puzzled where you try to classify us like you do the other nations, by whether we celebrate the individual or submit him to the nation. This question in its simplest form does not apply to the Minmatar people. We do both.
For most Minmatar, an individual alone is nothing. What makes a person is not just his or her own deeds, but also those of his or her people - family, clan, tribe, nation; friends and allies; leaders and followers. We are all brothers and sisters, and while we desire to be free, we desire to be free together.
When we speak of freedom we do not mean "freedom" from other people the same way that it is my impression the Gallenteans do. We mean that government should be where it belongs to: nation should not interfere with what is internal to one tribe; tribe should not interfere with what is internal to one clan; clan should not interfere with what is internal to one family; and family should not interfere with what are a person's private thoughts.
Allegiances and kinship. If you start operating on those concepts, instead of the individual or the collective, you can start to make sense of what makes Minmatar with all our myriads of beliefs and customs one nation.
The Republic, in itself, is nothing but an alliance of four (soon, we hope, more) tribes.
Mind you, these are my views and those of my clan. True to the above, a Matari is bound to come up and disagree.
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Kleoptoleme
Minmatar
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.09.30 14:34:00 -
[5]
Wow, well said Ma'am, I actually agree with you, very nice description of how I understand things too. |
Cipher7
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Posted - 2008.09.30 16:38:00 -
[6]
In tribal society you have free will, but it's socially encouraged to cooperate and help each other.
It's a loose social contract based on sympathy and shared community values.
In modern times there are all types of people living in the Republic, Gallente, even some non-hostile Caldari and Amarrians, of course they are members of our community, some are even adopted tribe members.
In the end there are no chains linking us except mutual goodwill and solidarity.
---
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Sophie Starsparrow
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Posted - 2008.09.30 16:50:00 -
[7]
Elsebeth : well and truly spoken.
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3ll3
Gallente
Tranquillity Nation
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Posted - 2008.09.30 18:28:00 -
[8]
Mr Beletre,
I have to agree whole heartedly with what Ms/Mrs Rhiannon has said the Republic is quite unlike any of the other structures of the other four races.
It uniquie in how some thing that looks so chaotic, that seems as though it should be total anarcy actualy gell's so well together in a way that at times can supass most of the other races well save for the Jove since we don't really know much about them 
You can think you know what they are thinking or doing one moment then the next 'BAM!' they will do some thing you wouldn't epect or didn't think them capable of doing.
________
Click above to learn more on 3ll3 |
Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.30 23:19:00 -
[9]
What Republic?
Shakor just abolished that, remember.
I believe the technical term for what you have now would be "The Tribal Tyranny of Matar."
Deus Vult!
PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar
17th Minmatar Tactical Wing
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Posted - 2008.10.01 00:57:00 -
[10]
The greatest attribute of our great nation, and something that I am proud of; is the simple fact that I can absolutely disagree with others in the militia and it is ok.
Our tribes are vastly different but somehow there we are, united and stronger then ever forging our place in this universe.
If you want a place of absolute freedom look no farther then the minmatar empire.
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar
17th Minmatar Tactical Wing
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Posted - 2008.10.01 01:00:00 -
[11]
 Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
What Republic?
Shakor just abolished that, remember.
I believe the technical term for what you have now would be "The Tribal Tyranny of Matar."
I believe the definition of a "republic" is the representation of peoples by a small number of individuals.
What was "Abolished" was the sham that was the parliment.
Our tribal leaders are there for a good reason. (Mainly because for the most part they've proven they know what they are doing.)
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Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.01 04:09:00 -
[12]
No, a republic is a government ruled by a body of elected officials. In other words, a parliament or other such body.
You can argue that Shakor was elected, but that ignores the reality that all of his major rivals were killed off in the mass bloodshed on the Tenth of June.
He then abolished the body of elected officials and replaced it with a tribal system.
Why you would cling to the name republic is beyond me, as it is a broken and inferior form of government, but to pretend that your old Republic is still extant is to delude yourself and ignore the overthrow of your old government by Shakor.
Enjoy your Tribal Tyranny, it actually is an improvement, but do not lie to the universe and yourself about what your new government is.
Deus Vult!
PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.10.01 04:41:00 -
[13]
Shakor has not abolished anything or anyone. He has plans to change the system so that it better represents the Republic's nation as union of tribes rather than a collection of individuals. Elected officials or no.
I would ask you to not twist things, Gaven Lok'ri, but I know by now it would be a useless request.
And in any case the original question seems to be as much about the nature of the Minmatar as a people than about our current governing form, so using this discussion for propaganda against our leaders is quite transparent anyway.
--
Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today. |
Parsor Evarkis
Minmatar
Thrace Inc
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Posted - 2008.10.01 07:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
No, a republic is a government ruled by a body of elected officials. In other words, a parliament or other such body.
You can argue that Shakor was elected, but that ignores the reality that all of his major rivals were killed off in the mass bloodshed on the Tenth of June.
He then abolished the body of elected officials and replaced it with a tribal system.
Why you would cling to the name republic is beyond me, as it is a broken and inferior form of government, but to pretend that your old Republic is still extant is to delude yourself and ignore the overthrow of your old government by Shakor.
Enjoy your Tribal Tyranny, it actually is an improvement, but do not lie to the universe and yourself about what your new government is.
A typical post by an Amarrian full of lies and deceit and completely unrelated to the topic at hand.
Yes Shakor was elected, no he did not kill off his main rivals, only those traitors in the employ of your corrupt chamberlain. Karin Midular is alive and well, his primary political rival. Look to your own government before commenting. You are soon to be celebrating the coronation an Empress who committed heresy.
As for what it's called, Republic, Empire, it matters not, it is just a word.
Back to the original issue, Elsebeth has summed it up fairly well. We are all individuals, but all part of the greater at the same time.
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Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.10.01 08:56:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 01/10/2008 08:56:41
Beletre, to answer your question, the encyclopedia is a good reference: Originally by: http://www.eve-online.com/races/Minmatar.asp
"For the Minmatars, the most important thing in life is to be able to take care of yourself on your own, and although kin and family play an important role in their society, they prefer identifying themselves by the clan or tribe to which they belong. A clan can have any number of people in it, and its size is largely dictated by the main activity of its members."
The new structure of the Minmatar Republic reflects more closely these core values.
For those who concentrate too much on the words, a republic can be defined as Originally by: http://www.answers.com/republic
"... a form of government in which the leader is periodically appointed under a constitution; in contrast with governments in which leadership is hereditary."
It could therefore be argued that all of the current empires are, at base, republics but that the current state of affairs in Caldari, Amarrian and even Minmatar states is undergoing, shall we say, flux.
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Outface the depths of evil with clarity
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Poreuomai
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.01 10:13:00 -
[16]
Elsebeth, I agree with your description of our people, especially your assertion that we "do both".
I would also say this:
What is good for the tribe is good for the individual, as we are all members of the tribe.
What is good for the individual is good for the tribe, as the tribe consists of many individuals.
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Mkhai Bastion
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.01 12:01:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Mkhai Bastion on 01/10/2008 12:03:17
Excellent Rhiannon,
When I think of my clan and our people. One thing comes to the fore...strong and pric-kly mind. A Brutor will smash out the teeth of any other matar who insults him, but that same Brutor will fully give his life for the same matar without a second thought when the real truth is upon him.
I meant p-r-i-c-k-l-y
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Ugleb
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.01 17:02:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
No, a republic is a government ruled by a body of elected officials. In other words, a parliament or other such body.
You can argue that Shakor was elected, but that ignores the reality that all of his major rivals were killed off in the mass bloodshed on the Tenth of June.
He then abolished the body of elected officials and replaced it with a tribal system.
Why you would cling to the name republic is beyond me, as it is a broken and inferior form of government, but to pretend that your old Republic is still extant is to delude yourself and ignore the overthrow of your old government by Shakor.
Enjoy your Tribal Tyranny, it actually is an improvement, but do not lie to the universe and yourself about what your new government is.
Before the return of the Elders, the Republic was corrupt, rotting and toothless. On the Tenth of June much of the rot was cut out like a cancerous tumour. It was brief, it was sudden, it was bloody and it was just.
What was thrown out no longer deserved to exist. Years ago the Ushra'Khan left the Republic's borders because we could no longer work within it. It had ceased to function its will to act was failing.
Despite my respect for Shakor I remain wary of his new status as 'Sanmatar'. The tribes have their voice, perhaps stronger than before but I have yet to forgive the Republic for the failures and crimes committed by its own government against it's people. But I have hope that it may yet become great again.
Contact the Sarz'na Khumatari |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.10.01 17:35:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ugleb
Before the return of the Elders, the Republic was corrupt, rotting and toothless.
There's still people out there who buy this line?
Quote:
Despite my respect for Shakor I remain wary of his new status as 'Sanmatar'.
And so forth. And when the Sanmatar makes the reforms you have been calling for, you'll make some other excuse for not coming home?
Elsebeth
The above views might not represent Electus Matari general opinion (I have not asked and can't be bothered)
--
Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today. |
Faraelle Brightman
Gallente
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2008.10.01 19:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
Enjoy your Tribal Tyranny...
Your Emperors/Empresses have more direct power in their hands than Shakor officialy does, does that make them tyrants?
Some would say so, but an Amarrian would say they are not: only when a ruler is cruel and ruthless would you label them such. We have yet to see what sort of ruler Shakor will turn out to be, untill then no one is qualified to voice such an opinion.
And a "republic" is really a very loose definition for a nation not ruled by a single monarch; it may consist of multiple groups (geographic municipalities, tribes in this case) who are somehow represented in the government. It is associated with democracy mostly because of the Gallente influence, but the name republic still applies to the Minmatar, technacly.
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Ugleb
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.10.01 19:12:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Originally by: Ugleb
Before the return of the Elders, the Republic was corrupt, rotting and toothless.
There's still people out there who buy this line?
Quote:
Despite my respect for Shakor I remain wary of his new status as 'Sanmatar'.
And so forth. And when the Sanmatar makes the reforms you have been calling for, you'll make some other excuse for not coming home?
Elsebeth
The above views might not represent Electus Matari general opinion (I have not asked and can't be bothered)
The annexation of Skarkon revealed the impotence of Midular's regime while the purge of June 10th showed the scope of corruption that had infiltrated the Republic.
As for returning home, the Ushra'Khan did what little CONCORD allowed us to do when the shooting war started but we are prohibited by CONCORD intervention from doing what we would like. We are continuing the fight where we can, beyond CONCORD's reach. The enemies of our people do not all reside within the Empire.
Contact the Sarz'na Khumatari |
Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.01 22:50:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Faraelle Brightman
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
Enjoy your Tribal Tyranny...
Your Emperors/Empresses have more direct power in their hands than Shakor officialy does, does that make them tyrants?
Our Empress after her coronation will be a divinely appointed autocrat supported by the Heirs and the Theology Council. She will not be taking power by force, but rather by the acclaim of the legitimate decision making bodies within the empire.
Quantity of personal power does not make one a Tyrant, it does make someone an autocrat, which is a title that applies to both an Emperor and an upstart "Sanmatar."
What makes your new government a Tyrrany is the fact that it overthrew the republic in a massive coup on the tenth of June. In other words, your new "Sanmatar" is not a legitimate leader of the republic but rather a leader put in place by the persuasive power of the "Elder" Fleet and a wave of assassinations.
That is why the new system is best understood as a Tribal Tyranny, as its inauguration into power was based on force rather than legitimate means.
Deus Vult!
PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
Vlad Cetes
Caldari
Heretic Army
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.10.01 23:03:00 -
[23]
Individual Lok'Ri.
I will point out the Sarum has already been proven unfit to be empress. She did lose the previous selection after all. When she cannot even assemble a powerful enough team to win a tournament, how can one expect her to be able to lead an empire?
I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature. |
Faraelle Brightman
Gallente
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2008.10.02 01:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
Originally by: Faraelle Brightman
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
Enjoy your Tribal Tyranny...
Your Emperors/Empresses have more direct power in their hands than Shakor officialy does, does that make them tyrants?
Our Empress after her coronation will be a divinely appointed autocrat supported by the Heirs and the Theology Council. She will not be taking power by force, but rather by the acclaim of the legitimate decision making bodies within the empire.
Quantity of personal power does not make one a Tyrant, it does make someone an autocrat, which is a title that applies to both an Emperor and an upstart "Sanmatar."
What makes your new government a Tyrrany is the fact that it overthrew the republic in a massive coup on the tenth of June. In other words, your new "Sanmatar" is not a legitimate leader of the republic but rather a leader put in place by the persuasive power of the "Elder" Fleet and a wave of assassinations.
That is why the new system is best understood as a Tribal Tyranny, as its inauguration into power was based on force rather than legitimate means.
I deliberately avoided singling out Sarum, though the means in which she came to the thorn are unconventional. And rumors of imporant officials disappearing or being shuffled off can only be shown as rumors...for now. But you're twisting semantics to make your own point: a tyrant may come to power by perfectly legitimate means, it's the excercise of that power which labels them tyrant or not. The name of the Emperor in question escapes me but perhaps the name "City of God" rings a few bells - there is an example of a legit Emperor whose rule Amarrians call tyranical.
Calling Shakor an autocrat is also a stretch: the position of the Sanmatar, as I understand it, is more analogus to the role of the Supreme Court judges in the Federation...or maybe a combination of President and judge; the President may draft and endorse policies but usualy they must be enacted by others. The tribal leaders, who were all previously elected to their positions as members of Parliment, I believe have about the same amount of official power that Shakor does; how things will be organized under them and how representation will work remains to be seen.
As to the sequence of events, after that day of bloodshed, Shakor left the republic, it's believed with the Elder/Thukker stronghold (it suggests he knew of them and the plans but no one on the outside knows how much). It seems he had to be convinced to return, as evidenced by the staements of Mildur and Yun - I do not believe that those are the actions of a man who desires power. His election to Prime Minster was consistant with the rules of the old constitution, although he ran unopposed...I suspect there will be much rewriting of said constitution, or perhaps a new one made alltogether (and the Gallente constitution has been amended much over the course of history, you can't call tyrany simply because of mass changes in the way things are run). Meanwhile if the "Elders" are exerting any further influence, they're keeping to themselves. But it's incorrect to say they put him directly into power.
Bah, why am I trying to argue with a hardline Amarrian...it's not like they can be persuaded. But it's one thing to argue over the interpritation of facts and another thing to be wrong about facts themselves.
I will say this: I think an independent investigation or tribunal ought to be launched into the assasinations of June 10, in part to determine whether they really were complicit in treason against the Minmatars. The violence and death of that day is repulsive to me but I would hold an Amarrian up to his own professed standards (the point behind all of this): is not death the punishment for treason in Amarr?
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Beletre
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.10.02 13:53:00 -
[25]
ty+rant (tī'rənt)
n.
An absolute ruler who governs without restrictions.
While it's usually considered a poor choice, a tyrant isn't always a bad thing. In many ways, it's the most effecient system of government, as there's no bureaucracy to muddle orders, slow things down, or suck up resources with petty infighting.
Assumeing the tyrant to have the best intrests of the country/people at heart, it is one of the greatest systems of government. Sadly, there is no way to assure the tyrant is benevolant, and if they are not, it easily becomes a horrid system of government.
Also, past a certain size, a single individual simple can't keep track of an entire country. They need various advisors, bureacrats, and officals to keep track of thigns and assure they run smoothly. Of course, these various peoples soon have power of their own, and you no longer have a tyrany.
And that said, all of the governments in question have far too many people in them to really be tyranies. If any of the primary rulers would be tyrants if they could, or are egotistical jerks with only their own self-intrests at heart, is another matter entirely.
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Helmut 314
Amarr
Spatha Deus
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Posted - 2008.10.02 19:29:00 -
[26]
The best way to describe the tribes are as amoral familists, clan and family loyalties prevent them from the natural order of things : the subjugation of personal desires to the Will of God.
________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure
- Homer J Simpson |
Yaholo
Minmatar
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2008.10.02 21:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Helmut 314
prevent them from the natural order of things : the subjugation of personal desires to the Will of God.
To say something is the "natural" way is to say it is also the default way. This means that by default a person should want their personal desires subjugated. This however is not the case as seen by the fact that the only way you can get new believers of your faith is through the beam of a laser and acts of slavery. Since you are required therefore to use force to make the majority of people think in your manner that would lead to the simple conclusion that it is not the "natural" order but rather one being forced on against the base nature. In essence making your entire arguement invalid.
The Matar do answer to a "higher" calling, the calling of loyalty and friendship as well as the ties of blood. Which I might add is a tie that is much more common in the universe than your above described method. Which leads to the conclusion that it is actually the natural way of things. Thus while you need to point a laser at someone to make them see your way, we simple must be with someone to make them see ours.
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Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.10.02 21:43:00 -
[28]
<Veron Daerth clears his throat>
I would also point out that The Emperor is not operating in a vacuum, so to speak. He/she has the Theology Council, the Royal Heirs, and to some extent, the Imperial bureaucracy all working alongside them. And these various organizations and people often have ... conflicting, shall we say... agendas they wish to advance.
There are also factional alliances to consider when your the Emperor, so you just cant order something done without considering all the possible ramifications of your actions. Emperors have been killed for failing to hear their people, and for ignoring the consequences of their actions. May I draw your attention to a little known bit of history in regards to this.
Zaragram attempted to simply order things to his liking, and the Empire suffered for it. And he was killed as a result. Also note that his killer was elevated to sainthood, I believe. Not so sure about that, it was a long time ago, and things have been changed so as to make it difficult to discover much about the entire thing.
Just a small point, take it as you will.
May the Light of God grant you peace.
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Aria Jenneth
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.10.02 22:43:00 -
[29]
It really is a pity the Minmatar and Caldari civilizations must stand at odds.
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Sophie Starsparrow
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Posted - 2008.10.04 09:24:00 -
[30]
I am amazed that even the simplest request for information on our society and our values has been usurped by Amarr and Caldari for their own purposes.
Beletre, you have gotten wise and reasoned answers from Minmatar worthy of the highest respect. Even if you had to sift through a bunch of enemy crap to find some of them. If you have any problems understanding them, it may come from trying to understand Minmatar culture in non-Minmatar terms. Come and spend some time in our space :)
The Amarrians and Caldari use terms like subjugation, and tyranny when describing Our society. Quite humorous.
Aria, the Minmatar and Caldari (as societies) will always be at odds. Where Caldari have strict heirarchy's, we do not function well with that type of mentality. Caldari is all about structure, our model is a little looser than that. I have heard many Caldari wonder recently why they do not have closer ties with the Minmatar, and I wonder if perhaps Achura is realizing they were right to leave the Federation, but wrong to go with the Civire and Deteis. The Achur do indeed seem to have much in common with the Minmatar, so perhaps the better question is : Why do the Achur have such close ties with Caldari and by extension, Amarr?
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