Where do these fall under the potentially new interpretation of harassment?

I attempted a suicide gank against The Wis today. It was a feeble attempt collect a bounty - 3b isk is a lot of money and a Thrasher was a small price to pay at a chance to get it. Do I feel The Wis is in any way responsible for this week's drama? Nope -- I assure you this was for the spaceship money.

He pulled out in a well-tanked cane and successfully got me and a T2 fitted Tornado blown up by Concord. I convo'ed him afterwards and complimented him on his successful bait.

Imagine that - he's playing the game the same as everyone else. The Wiz is not a "victim" - he is another eve player who happened to send the email that Mittens made an ass out of himself reading. (Let's not beat around the bush - Mittens was wrong for his actions and statements but let's try and avoid bringing that up here)

So, ridiculous people on an internet forum - should I be banned for harassment? I don't think so, however, some of you frothy types and CCP's own actions have put people being banned for similar actions in the realm of possibility and I have begun to worry.

I'm not going to argue about whether CCPs actions against The Mittani are warranted, but I will say this: The line for harassment needs to be clearly distinguished again. I'm not going to risk an EULA violation against my main character if all it takes to get banned is killing the same person 3-4 times in a day. What if he tells me he'll do something drastic if I kill him again? Is it now my responsibility, as a player of a /game/, to act appropriately for an individual who cannot distinguish reality from virtual spaceships?

Should I additionally suffer real-world consequences for not taking to heart some person's ranting?

People say stupid things when they're angry and upset. I've received death threats playing this game - like "I'm going to find you and kill you" type threats. Things that really make you pause. I discount them as the ramblings of someone who is obvious upset and let them slide. Being able to make the distinction between innocuos bile and an actual threat isn't necessary - we assume that the anonymity of the internet protects us and move on. If we are really worried we can petition CCP for action against that person's account. (If we're really ballsy we run for CSM and give our names out to a player base that hates us in real life for actions in a game)

Now what if someone I don't really know told me they were going to kill themselves because I blew up their ship? Just like the death threat I have no way of verifying the validity of that statement in the context of this person's mental state. However, is it my duty to report this person to CCP? Can we continue to shoot said person or move forward in a scam if such a statement is made mid-action? It may sound cold, but as a player of a game, we cannot police what we do not know and it should not be our responsibility to nanny a players mental well-being.

If I saw someone on the street about to jump off a ledge of course I'd stop and try and help, but this is a game and there is no ledge. No indication that what the person is saying holds any merit. Without context, the words are nothing but text on a screen.

It's really easy to take the moral high ground on these issues, especially when it's backed by vehement disdain for the parties involved. However, before making any rash decisions or labeling a large group of players "psychopaths" you should calm down, breath, take a step back and look at the policy implications of what you're describing.

In the past, people have been very clearly targeted for one reason or another - be it a corp you wardec'ed because they popped your low sec POS or said something mean about you in local. Hell, my alliance is in perpetual war dec with high sec griefing corps for no other reason than "we make easy targets". People have been targeted for writing articles on EN24 that were unfavorable towards certain alliances. In fact, whenever we're near BrickSquad..... (is that the right amount of dots?) now, we make it a point to single out and blow up Riverini or Darius III whenever possible. People pay for corpses of individuals. Entire Merc corps make a living out of "destroying" pilots. I could go on and on with examples of how individuals are targeted.

Where do these fall under the potentially new interpretation of harassment?

This is part of the narrative in Eve - it's what makes it interesting and dynamic for a large portion of the player base. If we set aside The Wiz's "suicide" statement (which, mind you, we do not have the context to identify its validity or intent), he is just another pawn in this narrative and perfectly ok playing this game.

So I pose this to CCP: Am I to be banned because his role in this narrative is already written permanently simply due to protection offered by words without context?

What "new" interpretation?

Banning Mittani was not about possibly suicidal state of (redacted).

It was about Mittani telling others to harrass him to make him commit suicide.

Don't confuse these two.

Yes, but I am told by numerous people/organizations on a daily basis to go out and kill one pilot or another en masse, what makes this case so special?

It's the finer nuances that are being covered by broad strokes which need to be clarified.

You are told to kill them ingame for ingame reasons - NOT for reason that they would commit suicide.

That is the difference.

OK.. I really do not know what to say. I am at a loss for words with all that is going on.

I guess I should say that this is not about someone alt in eve.
This is not about someone losing isks they worked for.
This is not about someone losing a machanaw in the game.
This is not something I started. I was really shocked to see the video monday night when I finaly had time.

This is all really about a person that is over joyed in making some one hurt as much as they can in real life not in game.
Going by his power point I have to say he thought about it long before getting drunk.
If thowing my name out there was something he planed to do or not that I can not say, and we will never know for sure.
But when reflect the way he talked about my mail. I am sure that was an option he was holding on to and tossing up becouse he was really enjoying tomenting someone.

I am sorry this is not the alt in the game that is talk but the person playing the alt.

There are allot of people out there that have real life problems, but they are warned when they join Eve. Whats said and done in the game doesn't bother me, its all part of Eve.

To me this **** got real and hurt full when I watched a video where a complete stranger urged other complete strangers to try make me kill myself.

So the intent matters? Good to know CCP is healthy enough of a company to have enough manpower to take each case and determine the intent of the actions involved. (That's sarcasm)

Putting aside areas of clear intent (such as Alliance Panel gaffe), is it ok to blow someone up repeatedly because they acted like an idiot on EVE radio?

And will I get banned for blowing up The Wiz today because my intent was interpreted as harassment yet all I really wanted was the money?

You see the problem with this now?

DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

Last night I posted on this forum and someone told me to go kill myself.

How does this play with new interpretations of the EULA/ToS?

I am more than happy to provide details of my diagnosed medical conditions to CCP privately.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

No need for sarcasm. Of course intent matters when it is clearly stated, as in Mittani case.



Mittani case was clear, why to muddy it with questions which are not so clear. EVE has allways had such cases, and will allways have them - nothing has changed.

And if you do want definitive answer - ask CCP.



See above.


No. Nothing has changed with Mittani case.

Despite the trolls I was very sincere in my opening statement so thank you for clarifying.

So, by my interpretation it seems that me and my friends who went after the bounty today are in the clear with regards to the Harassment Policy. And that people calling for us to get banned simply because we're chasing a bounty are misinformed.

Again, thank you for the clarification.

I do take some affront to you questioning my common sense, as I assure you I am not the only one puzzled by the current climate or worried at the direction CCP was heading with this.

Last night I posted on this forum and someone told me to go kill myself.

How does this play with new interpretations of the EULA/ToS?

I am more than happy to provide details of my diagnosed medical conditions to CCP privately.

DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

By your interpretation... very important part.

See the thing is your interpretation means as much as mine does... zilch.

Also we see that you are trying to be clever and twist words and make out there is some massive conspiracy where as truth be told you are looking more and more ridiculous with each post.

By all means keep it up because

WE LOVE YOU

This doesn't resolve the situation where all of this takes place inside the magic circle. If player A ganks player B and player B says "Leave me alone or I'm going to kill myself" in local chat but player B is in a freight full of plexs. What do you think is going to happen here? I wouldn't be surprised to see "Great, go ahead we'll loot your plexs" and quite frankly... I wouldn't vilify anyone for that. How is player A supposed to understand that context while in the circle? If it can be joked about there, why does the circle even matter?

You also just created a double standard by suggesting the idea of the magic circle as being in game but then enforcing the in game TOS and EULA at FANFEST which is clearly not in game.

I think your explanation just made things fuzzier to be honest.

Perfectly fine so long as they dont wish RL harm.

Despite the trolls I was very sincere in my opening statement so thank you for clarifying.

So, by my interpretation it seems that me and my friends who went after the bounty today are in the clear with regards to the Harassment Policy. And that people calling for us to get banned simply because we're chasing a bounty are misinformed.

Again, thank you for the clarification.

I do take some affront to you questioning my common sense, as I assure you I am not the only one puzzled by the current climate or worried at the direction CCP was heading with this.

No the explanation is crystal clear.

The fact that you seem to have difficulty understanding is no one faults other then your own.

How do you judge that?

Wait for a corpse to wash up somewhere?

I did want a definitive answer and asked CCP - so what's your problem?

Cool, Ad Hominem. Classy.

Care to clarify how its perfectly clear how to act when in the magic circle when some one can just through certain taboo topics around with out providing any further context or how they didn't just create a double standard? I'm all ears. Provide a well written argument that addresses all the points.

well if you read the post you can see that the intent matters. And the intent of the persons who put out the bounty is pretty clear. so i wouldnt really count on getting the money because that person who issued the bounty may be banned soon enough.

Game masters do not moderate our forums, so I cannot answer that. Also, this is no new interpretation, this has always been the case. We have issued many temporary bans for issuing real life threats.

This doesn't resolve the situation where all of this takes place inside the magic circle. If player A ganks player B and player B says "Leave me alone or I'm going to kill myself" in local chat but player B is in a freight full of plexs. What do you think is going to happen here? I wouldn't be surprised to see "Great, go ahead we'll loot your plexs" and quite frankly... I wouldn't vilify anyone for that. How is player A supposed to understand that context while in the circle? If it can be joked about there, why does the circle even matter?

You also just created a double standard by suggesting the idea of the magic circle as being in game but then enforcing the in game TOS and EULA at FANFEST which is clearly not in game.

I think your explanation just made things fuzzier to be honest.

Game masters do not moderate our forums, so I cannot answer that. Also, this is no new interpretation, this has always been the case. We have issued many temporary bans for issuing real life threats.

Wait, there was no intent to cause harm. My Reading of the GM's response indicated that the reason The Mittani was banned was because he made the connection that "griefing in game" would cause a real life consequence.

Putting a bounty on someones head, by its own merit, has no consequence outside the magic circle and therefore is not harassment.

Serious question here, and I'm genuinely curious: If this was a clear violation of clear rules that don't require any interpretation that isn't already present, why did it take 5 days for him to be punished when video evidence was available mere hours after the incident took place?

OK, no problem understand that.

So just clear up one thing for me. Does telling a CCP customer who is manic depressive with a suicidal history OOG to kill themselves (forums included) constitute a real life threat?

If so, could you direct my case to the appropriate place I as would appreciate it.

5 days to publish devblog is actually quite fast for CCP. Maybe they wanted to double and triple check what exactly they are going to say.

"Leave me alone or I'm going to kill myself" this is clearly an IRL threat to himself, use the report/petition function to report this. Go ahead ingame and loot his stuff. But dont say things like "go ahead and die" because thats about RL stuff too.

Really its pretty clear. If he was joking it will be his problem to explain it to the authorities. if he didnt you saved him and got the loot without breaking eula or tos

edit: btw if someone threatened you in the forum, just go ahead and report him. if he was joking its his problem. RL threats are nothing to joke about.

Dont be mad bros, theres always next year, right?

Serious question here, and I'm genuinely curious: If this was a clear violation of clear rules that don't require any interpretation that isn't already present, why did it take 5 days for him to be punished when video evidence was available mere hours after the incident took place?

or when you incite others to do so

again this is a pretty special case cause of the recent events. CCP stated they will watch actions taken against the wis. As far as i know he has a positive security status and cant have an ingame bounty. (didnt login to check so i might be wrong). I'm assuming here that this is a bounty that got set on him through forum or other means and people will pay for his corpse. Cause of recent events it clearly connects to the "harass him till he suicides" especially since the bounty is not set through ingame means. (again i'm assuming he doesnt have an ingame bounty, correct me if i'm wrong)

Dont be mad bros, theres always next year, right?

Just make harrasment petition ingame?

Or if it was forum post, press the Report button.

Serious question here, and I'm genuinely curious: If this was a clear violation of clear rules that don't require any interpretation that isn't already present, why did it take 5 days for him to be punished when video evidence was available mere hours after the incident took place?

DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

I think i'm coming at this from a different angle than most. I've actually dealt with suicidal people IRL. Most of the time if they're making a show of it, they're full of **** and just want attention. It's the one's that go all quiet you've got to worry about.

Because it took 3 days for some faceless NPC alt to make a rage topic about it (after it was reveiled he won) and they have continued for days after he stood down.

DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

As I said, i am not going to comment on recent events. That is outside my jurisdiction.

a living hell

Ah, good idea. I don't usually think about petitions. My only experience with them is weeks of waiting with poor results.

there were post deletions the for the Goons sweeping in with "I hope people who disagree with us about Roadhouse being a great movie die in a fire / from Cancer / etc." But we see not much trace of the ban-hammer being used to really blot out this behaviour.

You answered your own question there. How would you like to live in a living hell? That said, as long as it remains in The Magic Circle we are very lenient in what we allow, as all of you are well aware. This does not give you the right to be anti-social just because you enjoy tormenting others.

Also 5 days delay on "immediate" action? Glaciers move faster than that.

As I said, i am not going to comment on recent events. That is outside my jurisdiction. ALL my comments cannot be applied to these recent events. I am ONLY commenting on standard procedures.

Not sure I did, as the player can simply choose to not log in if it gets too much for him. It's essentially always in the magic circle as long as you don't threaten him in real life... that is my understanding of what you just said about the magic circle, if it isn't like that, then basically everyone killing about player in eve is stepping outside the circle.. as the target is properly "sad" because he lost his ship... thus effected in real life

It's a real good job you refuse to comment, because you absolutely cannot prove that, or logically demonstrate it in any way.

Mittens never asked or told anyone to do that. He never incited it in any way.

The definition of "to incite" is to "encourage, urge or persuade [an action]"

His words were "if you want to" - which is no different to me saying "if you wanted to kill the president, I would shoot him in the head. That's H-E-A-D"

That says nothing about whether I actually want it to happen or not, and does not in any way encourage, urge or persuade someone to do so.

Usually when you refuse to discuss / comment it is largely accepted because we, as players, cannot see all the pertinent evidence. We accept your decision and must do so.

Here, we are clearly able to see the evidence (because you, as a company, chose to broadcast that material onto the internet) and the time does not fit the crime.

I still want to know: are the GMs investigating other behaviour that violated the TOS at fanfest, or do I need to first create 1162 NPC alts and create a media circus for your "rules" to apply?


(incidentally, The Wiz is, on the back of this, receiving constant ingame harassment. No, not just from goons. How do you feel that applying rules to "protect players" is actually harming them?)

DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

Also 5 days delay on "immediate" action? Glaciers move faster than that.

This is a complete fabrication, and I assume you know it, since you are an intelligent adult. Anyone who has been playing eve for a few years can point to literally dozens of real-life threats and incitements of real-life threats that CCP has done nothing about. You may deny this, or refuse to comment, here, but I hope you have the courage and basic honesty to address this internally at CCP, and to acknowledge that recent actions are based on PR and personal grudges, not a consistent enforcement of EULA/TOS.

Senior GM claims 'no Juristictian' so someone pulled string for CCP's 'pet player' it would appear

DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

This is a complete fabrication, and I assume you know it, since you are an intelligent adult. Anyone who has been playing eve for a few years can point to literally dozens of real-life threats and incitements of real-life threats that CCP has done nothing about. You may deny this, or refuse to comment, here, but I hope you have the courage and basic honesty to address this internally at CCP, and to acknowledge that recent actions are based on PR and personal grudges, not a consistent enforcement of EULA/TOS.

Once again another OP fails to understand the issue. The object of the drunken tirade has nothing to do with any of this. There are laws governing what can be intentionally broadcast on an open mic. Even people who play EVE and think the real world doesn't exist are subject to these laws. At my count, three statues in Iceland, and quite possibly half a dozen in the state of Georgia (US) were violated. It doesn't matter how much anyone loves or hates Mitt, or CCP, the Wiz...spaceship games, whatever. If you want to toy with law enforcement, do so at your own risk. They ARE the real world.

[quote=Wukulo][quote=Prince Kobol][quote=Wukulo] if he was joking its his problem. RL threats are nothing to joke about.

You do need to report it. We do not have a crystal ball that tells us when a rule is violated. In that sense we act like a police force would: we act if something is reported or when it happens right under our noses, but if it is not reported it will not be acted upon. Every petition sent in where people are issuing real life threats have been acted upon.

Except when The Mittani said those things on Fanfest, he wasn't in your magic circle. You're applying EULA/TOS to outgame incidents, and I think that is a very slippery slope.

Did you even read what I wrote?

The question was, essentially, "what are the harassment policies considering -words-?"

Which GM Homonoia was kind enough to answer. This has nothing to do with Mittens directly, and everything to do with their policy going forward. "Law enforcement of various governments" has no place in this discussion.

Please keep it on topic.

He was, by utilizing CCP's communication platform. Like the forums, but in this case it was the live stream. As said hundred times over the last few hours: As such the EULA/TOS did apply.

I suspect that's not the image you have among the community who are sick of the rep our game is getting because of the silly volume of out-of-game threats and slurring that gets thrown about on the forums.

For the most part I've dipped out of the forums for a couple of years now because I find the "you disagree with me, **** off and die" posts just depressing to read. I don't bother flagging them because I don't actually believe GMs will do anything about it.

If the CSM were to make this an issue, and ask CCP to press it, do you think there would be a more hardline attitude followed by forum mods?

DISCLAIMER:
However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

Oh, I'm so sorry. You used all that text to describe two conditions with two different results, one seeming to be lesser of two offenses but receiving MORE of a punishment. Correct me if I'm wrong. Using Mitt's case (which you did) and the fact he got a lesser punishment for a greater crime...which he did...maybe you should, as I said, underSTAND your topic.

One question regarding this... are we allowed to make someones life in eve a living hell? such as always trying to hunt them down, trying to kill their ships and assets (for whatever reason, we might dislike them?) ... If that person then becomes suicidal because of this... or already was, and then acts on it... is it then our fault? or CCP's fault for having such a harsh game? or is it actually the "suiciders" own fault for playing eve in the first place instead of... say WoW

I think you will find, unfortunately, that such bile exists on MMO forums no matter where you end up. While this may not be a good explanation or excuse, at least take comfort in this fact.

People with opposing realities, not matter how trivial, will always deem it their prerogative to slander and provoke those with opposite views rather than have good discourse. Take a look at Darius III throughout this whole thing for a good example.

Being able to have good discussions is not the realm of MMO forums.

Edit: or my own postings in some cases. I am not above this bile.

Huh?

You answered your own question there. How would you like to live in a living hell? That said, as long as it remains in The Magic Circle we are very lenient in what we allow, as all of you are well aware. This does not give you the right to be anti-social just because you enjoy tormenting others.

You do need to report it. We do not have a crystal ball that tells us when a rule is violated. In that sense we act like a police force would: we act if something is reported or when it happens right under our noses, but if it is not reported it will not be acted upon. Every petition sent in where people are issuing real life threats have been acted upon.

the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

[quote=Bubanni]
Things like publishing evemails that have tears but no hints of RL, and publically ridiculing them in an attempt to make people feel like ****, fall in the middle ground. I would guess in most cases not allowed, if they report or petition it. I would also suggest it is an ******* thing to do and should be avoided, regardless of the likelihood to get banned.

Wait a second..Anti Social? Like blowing up other peoples space pixels? Saying mean stuff in local?
I appreciate that being a GM is tough but really it seems like everytime you post here the policy gets more and more fuzzy and less and less eve-y.
There are in game actions, legitimate actions such as AFK cloaking, 24/7 'Hell Camps", Suicide Ganking and so on, all things I've participated in, designed to make other players in game lives a 'living hell'.

Sorry I trimmed your statement, but I wanted to focus on this one point. My interpretation is that as long as no real life consequence or threat is made, sharing "tears" or publishing in-game communications between players is fair game regardless of the medium - as long as the consequences stay in the magic box.

So it would be OK to post the eve mails publicly, as long as I don't post information relevant to their real life OR encourage action that would solicit bodily/RL harm to the player.

Again, this is only my interpretation.

So...if I want to trash talk, I have to roleplay.

Got it.

Playing chicken with the GM's hmmmm?

Why don't you go do something safer like crawling around in traffic.

So...if I want to trash talk, I have to roleplay.

Got it.

Edit: POD YOURSELF

Second edit: But *only* in game, guy

Section 4 of our ToS:

"You may not use GÇ£role-playingGÇ¥ as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy."

Pod yourself is, of course, perfectly ok.

So...if I want to trash talk, I have to roleplay.

All of that is part of the rules of The Magic Circle. Simple in game tactics. Creating a living hell by using a person's real life information (nationality, gender, etc) is not allowed. Thus suicide ganking is ok, en mass proclamation that a German player is a **** (infamous German nationalistic political group) and typing swasticas to that player is not ok. I hope that distinction is quite clear.

So the intent matters? Good to know CCP is healthy enough of a company to have enough manpower to take each case and determine the intent of the actions involved. (That's sarcasm)

Putting aside areas of clear intent (such as Alliance Panel gaffe), is it ok to blow someone up repeatedly because they acted like an idiot on EVE radio?

And will I get banned for blowing up The Wiz today because my intent was interpreted as harassment yet all I really wanted was the money?

You see the problem with this now?

Why don't you go do something safer like crawling around in traffic.

I believe that was a suggestion to kill myself, sir.

So much drivel

you are powerless in this situation.[/b] All the talking in the world won't change the fact that if you step over the "perceived" line, you'll be banned. Once you are banned you are no longer a player or a problem. You are just some jerk pleading to be let back in.

All ingame actions have a real life effect on the victims, if completely legit actions are bannable based on the results (I.e. consistently "harassing" someone within the magic circle which leads to his suicide) or based on the intent of the perpetrator (GM Thought Police), you're setting a precedent where we can't do anything in EVE for the risk of being banned.

Luckily, this is a high profile case where CCP was forced to conduct damage control, and will likely and hopefully have no impact on the way the GMs moderate the game in the future. I'm sure you can't acknowledge this second paragraph as a CCP employee though, I certainly wouldn't

I will also say that despite some confusing answers I really do appreciate GM Homonoia's continued answers here.

See and this is a problem, wheres the line now? Do I have to back off if a victim of a suicide gank says "I'll IRL kill myself if you blow up my ship!!"

See and this is a problem, wheres the line now? Do I have to back off if a victim of a suicide gank says "I'll IRL kill myself if you blow up my ship!!"
CanI a whole titian blob be stopped because some one on the other side declares "I'll kill myself if you take my sov!".

The recent kerfluffle was about words but it was words encouraging in game action, that had a implied out of game consequence. Same with the two above situations. Seeing as how people invest time, effort and money into playing the game, knowing what will and will not get you banned is pretty important ESPECIALLY since players are powerless with regards to the GM/Player relationship.

I will also say that despite some confusing answers I really do appreciate GM Homonoia's continued answers here.

Might need a new needle for your moral compass.

Also I think you need to ask about CCP's behavioural policies not their harrassment policy, as I doubt they have a policy specifically to cover the many forms of how you can enact such behaviour. Just thought it was interesting to see how "your" mindset seems to have invented a specific policy for your purposes.

Seriously however, bad taste in the current climate. Shows the gravity with which some people are treating this.

So if he'd had done it on Failheap or something, CCP wouldn't have cared? Or if by some chance would know someone player's homeadress and I would sent him a death-threat by post, CCP wouldn't care either?

I meant like uh...what's it called. "You lowsy Amarrian scum" or something equally lame

I think that all tests are not so smart. Ally leader is the best :) what was his name ? That drunk teenager from ally panel

He's in TEST, he has no moral compass.

I know you were being facetious but just to clarify, I think the correct course of action would be to report the suicidal statement to CCP (in case it's real) and continue playing the game as normal. A statement of RL bodily harm to yourself is as concerning to CCP as harassment to others.

I don't see players abusing this whole shtick though (regardless of the policy) unless CCP goes completely pants-on-head.

They don't have to care what you do on some not related (owning wise) platform. They also can't confirm some entity posting on another platform is indeed that player (which wasn't the case for the stream; cause they knew who that guy talking there (using their channel) is).

For me this would be perfectly fine, considering you're clearly addressing their character and not the person behind that avatar. In this case I'd say this is definitely role play. "You lowsy Amarrian playing scum" wouldn't be ok, as now it addresses the player, breaking from roleplay (i.e. it becomes ooc talk).

He's in TEST, he has no moral compass.

not paying attention to context

I attempted a suicide gank against The Wis today. It was a feeble attempt collect a bounty - 3b isk is a lot of money and a Thrasher was a small price to pay at a chance to get it. Do I feel The Wis is in any way responsible for this week's drama? Nope -- I assure you this was for the spaceship money.

He pulled out in a well-tanked cane and successfully got me and a T2 fitted Tornado blown up by Concord. I convo'ed him afterwards and complimented him on his successful bait.

Imagine that - he's playing the game the same as everyone else. The Wiz is not a "victim" - he is another eve player who happened to send the email that Mittens made an ass out of himself reading. (Let's not beat around the bush - Mittens was wrong for his actions and statements but let's try and avoid bringing that up here)

So, ridiculous people on an internet forum - should I be banned for harassment? I don't think so, however, some of you frothy types and CCP's own actions have put people being banned for similar actions in the realm of possibility and I have begun to worry.

I'm not going to argue about whether CCPs actions against The Mittani are warranted, but I will say this: The line for harassment needs to be clearly distinguished again. I'm not going to risk an EULA violation against my main character if all it takes to get banned is killing the same person 3-4 times in a day. What if he tells me he'll do something drastic if I kill him again? Is it now my responsibility, as a player of a /game/, to act appropriately for an individual who cannot distinguish reality from virtual spaceships?

Should I additionally suffer real-world consequences for not taking to heart some person's ranting?

People say stupid things when they're angry and upset. I've received death threats playing this game - like "I'm going to find you and kill you" type threats. Things that really make you pause. I discount them as the ramblings of someone who is obvious upset and let them slide. Being able to make the distinction between innocuos bile and an actual threat isn't necessary - we assume that the anonymity of the internet protects us and move on. If we are really worried we can petition CCP for action against that person's account. (If we're really ballsy we run for CSM and give our names out to a player base that hates us in real life for actions in a game)

Now what if someone I don't really know told me they were going to kill themselves because I blew up their ship? Just like the death threat I have no way of verifying the validity of that statement in the context of this person's mental state. However, is it my duty to report this person to CCP? Can we continue to shoot said person or move forward in a scam if such a statement is made mid-action? It may sound cold, but as a player of a game, we cannot police what we do not know and it should not be our responsibility to nanny a players mental well-being.

If I saw someone on the street about to jump off a ledge of course I'd stop and try and help, but this is a game and there is no ledge. No indication that what the person is saying holds any merit. Without context, the words are nothing but text on a screen.

It's really easy to take the moral high ground on these issues, especially when it's backed by vehement disdain for the parties involved. However, before making any rash decisions or labeling a large group of players "psychopaths" you should calm down, breath, take a step back and look at the policy implications of what you're describing.

In the past, people have been very clearly targeted for one reason or another - be it a corp you wardec'ed because they popped your low sec POS or said something mean about you in local. Hell, my alliance is in perpetual war dec with high sec griefing corps for no other reason than "we make easy targets". People have been targeted for writing articles on EN24 that were unfavorable towards certain alliances. In fact, whenever we're near BrickSquad..... (is that the right amount of dots?) now, we make it a point to single out and blow up Riverini or Darius III whenever possible. People pay for corpses of individuals. Entire Merc corps make a living out of "destroying" pilots. I could go on and on with examples of how individuals are targeted.

Where do these fall under the potentially new interpretation of harassment?

This is part of the narrative in Eve - it's what makes it interesting and dynamic for a large portion of the player base. If we set aside The Wiz's "suicide" statement (which, mind you, we do not have the context to identify its validity or intent), he is just another pawn in this narrative and perfectly ok playing this game.

So I pose this to CCP: Am I to be banned because his role in this narrative is already written permanently simply due to protection offered by words without context?

You are being a typical TEST prat. Nice reply also GM

DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

Ohgod Townsend is shitting all over my thread. I guess it was a good run.

Thanks GM Homonia for answering rather pointed questions and alleviating any fears of policy changes while clarifying things.

I shall now let this devolve in to people making judgements about others based on their spaceship associations.

So wait if ANYONE else on that panel had made a similar/the same statement as Mittanni CCP couldn't ban them cause they would have no way to confirm that the person doing it was the character in game?

So does this mean you guys will actually start doing something about the people who give out death threats after being scammed?

You are not very bright are you. CCP know MIttani said it cos it was on tv. All the other people on the panel are also on tv. Also proof of identity and account ownership is required to even stand for csm. If he had posted the equivelant on Kugu or goon forums they have no way to confirm that the person making the post is actually in any way related to the character "the mittani". In that case they could not act unless he fessed up.

Please tell me how CCP could know that the guy claiming to be Kesper North from Gents was in fact the person who logged in as Kesper North?
CCP only knew that the Mitanni was the same person as the one speaking at the alliance panel because he was required to give them personal information to be on the CSM. Think about it for a second, if I want to REALLY meta game things up I could record a youtube video, claim to be, for example, Doddy, and urge players in eve to harass someone in game and say something along the lines of 'maybe he'll off himself'. Then I just shoot that video link around, post it on these forums every chance I get and etc.

The Magic Circle.

I'm PRETTY sure your reaching here. Fanfest attendees, especially panelists, would need to present some form of ID along the way.

7 pages later, all i read was bla bla bla.

This whole post could have been avoided using common sence, i know its rare these days but really people should learn to use it, it makes things so much easyer.

Hi. Get back to me next time people are clamoring for you to get banned because you did something deemed ~evil~.

Also, telling people to use common "sence" normally goes over better when you use an iota of care in presenting your statements. Such as not misspelling the word "sense" in "common sense".

Hi. Get back to me next time people are clamoring for you to get banned because you did something deemed ~evil~.

Also, telling people to use common "sence" normally goes over better when you use an iota of care in presenting your statements. Such as not misspelling the word "sense" in "common sense".

See and this is a problem, wheres the line now? Do I have to back off if a victim of a suicide gank says "I'll IRL kill myself if you blow up my ship!!"

The amount of people still subverting things and manipulating text and/or statements to their point of view is astonishing.

.

Also normally goes over better counter when you do a counter argumentation over the subject at and, and not attacking the person over a completely unrelated subject trying to divert attention to the main point which is your lack of common sense clearly shown on your OP.

This would be relevant if the thread was about the Mittani. Since its NOT about him but is in fact about a policy your post is not relevant.

I know you were being facetious but just to clarify, I think the correct course of action would be to report the suicidal statement to CCP (in case it's real) and continue playing the game as normal. A statement of RL bodily harm to yourself is as concerning to CCP as harassment to others.

No, it's about attempting to create a die hard strict judgment about something that needs to be ruled by common sense since you cannot specify every possible situation in which it can or cannot occur.

Basically it's an attempt to completely describe to the last detail of what can be considered as a weapon so that you can try to find a loophole and/or subvert it's description to serve your purpose, kill with impunity.

I don't know if this can come across in the little brain of yours, if it doesn't well, I could try to make you a drawing but you're still too dense (or have a big ego) to understand you're still in the wrong with your (and your group) attempt at manipulate what in the end is common sense.

Yes Yes. I lack common sense. Thank you both for pointing this out.

However, there is no argument when you tell someone they lack common sense. Common sense depends on context, experience, and knowledge of the situation. I asked for clarification in the most pointed way I knew how yet am chastised for it by people who seem to think I'm trying to make amends for mittens. I attempted to blow the guy up for money, and was told by a few people I might get banned because The Wiz was "protected" under special pretenses. My only motive was clarifying those statements.

So tell me, how is asking for clarification of the rules affect you in any way such that you must berate me by saying I lack common sense?

Actually, despite Townsends complete trolling, the GM reiterated the current, good solid line to start from that seems to encompass most situations.

Also, resorting to personal attacks doesn't become you when you chastised me not 2 replies ago for doing the same thing.

It's a real good job you refuse to comment, because you absolutely cannot prove that, or logically demonstrate it in any way.

Mittens never asked or told anyone to do that. He never incited it in any way.

The definition of "to incite" is to "encourage, urge or persuade [an action]"

His words were "if you want to" - which is no different to me saying "if you wanted to kill the president, I would shoot him in the head. That's H-E-A-D"

That says nothing about whether I actually want it to happen or not, and does not in any way encourage, urge or persuade someone to do so.

Usually when you refuse to discuss / comment it is largely accepted because we, as players, cannot see all the pertinent evidence. We accept your decision and must do so.

Here, we are clearly able to see the evidence (because you, as a company, chose to broadcast that material onto the internet) and the time does not fit the crime.

I still want to know: are the GMs investigating other behaviour that violated the TOS at fanfest, or do I need to first create 1162 NPC alts and create a media circus for your "rules" to apply?


(incidentally, The Wiz is, on the back of this, receiving constant ingame harassment. No, not just from goons. How do you feel that applying rules to "protect players" is actually harming them?)

I'm pretty sure I am too actually, but its this line of in/out of game but it was a CCP sponsored event using CCP systems and they can confirm that the man is the character thats making the line fuzzy.
Even then though other than providing CC information (which you don't HAVE to provide if your account uses PLEX I think) most people who play aren't required to turn over personal information to CCP.
Also keep in mind that it was the Mittanni (the in game character) who was punished by the ban, not the real life person who logs in as the Mittani.
Unless CCP is passing out secret pass phrases (the Narwhal Bacons at Midnight??) to panel attendees then there's no way to know if the actual dude speaking is the toon in the game.
Just like there would be no way to know if the person in a youtube video is in fact the toon they claim to be.

If you really want to engage in pathetic attempts at re-reading a crystal clear text

he 'actively and deliberately sought to facilitate'

If an Aryan Nations type fool stood up in front of a large rally and said: "if you wanted to kill the president, I would shoot him in the head.' and then proceeded to add information about the President's movements in the next few days as well as the best type of ammunition for penetrating the armour on his vehicle I'm pretty sure that no reasonable person would think that the 'If you want' phrase at the start of the sentence would clear him of incitement.

stop and listen to yourself. Really. Hang your head and slink away

You're right probably the personal attack could have been avoided, but then, it's always good to 'read' the tears of bullies who like to do the same on others, and weep like babies when it's them, I couldn't avoid it.

I do promise though, in this thread, only because of your rare clear reasoning given the group you belong to, I'll avoid to do those personal attacks.

So does this mean you guys will actually start doing something about the people who give out death threats after being scammed?

You're right probably the personal attack could have been avoided, but then, it's always good to 'read' the tears of bullies who like to do the same on others, and weep like babies when it's them, I couldn't avoid it.

I do promise though, in this thread, only because of your rare clear reasoning given the group you belong to, I'll avoid to do those personal attacks.

Yes Yes. I lack common sense. Thank you both for pointing this out.

However, there is no argument when you tell someone they lack common sense. Common sense depends on context, experience, and knowledge of the situation. I asked for clarification in the most pointed way I knew how yet am chastised for it by people who seem to think I'm trying to make amends for mittens. I attempted to blow the guy up for money, and was told by a few people I might get banned because The Wiz was "protected" under special pretenses. My only motive was clarifying those statements.

So tell me, how is asking for clarification of the rules affect you in any way such that you must berate me by saying I lack common sense?

CCP has made some bold statements and taken some bold actions, and the EULA/TOS is rather vague. In light of recent events, I think the OP deserves and answer, and I'd like to see things spelled out more specifically as well

The OP got an answer? Maybe if you tried to clearly rephrase the questions you think are still open, a GM could better answer them.

You may encounter and converse with people who are rude, offensive, belligerent, and who may use indecent, obscene, and/or threatening or harassing language while playing the Game. You may report any instances of such behavior to CCP. CCP will investigate and take such measures as CCP, in its sole judgment, determines are reasonable under the circumstances. CCP does not guarantee that you will not encounter behavior of others that you may view as insulting, demeaning, offensive, threatening or harassing. You assume all risk associated with playing the Game, and CCP assumes no responsibility for the conduct of any other players, and shall not be liable to you or any other person for their conduct.

So wait if ANYONE else on that panel had made a similar/the same statement as Mittanni CCP couldn't ban them cause they would have no way to confirm that the person doing it was the character in game?

Recently, I was told to die in a fire. I believe that comment was outside the "magic circle" , where do I send a petition to?

Nah no crying, honestly though yes I'm trolling, yes I'm trying to provoke people. Its something that TEST does, its something that makes Test what it is. If that's going to get me banned I'd like to know in advance so I can schedule a real vacation and set a long skill.
About Common sense: its not universal. Real me (not Townsend who does what ever the hell he wants) has the advantage of being an ex-pat in a really different culture. Where I live people (and players) will likely NOT report any potential suicide to the authorities (that being CCP) because where I am YOU. DON'T. TALK. TO. THE. COPS. Ever.
The fact that there are completely valid reasons to not have done so and to continue to not do so makes the common sense of where I live different from the common sense I was born to.
With that in mind, with the fact that EVE is now played by people all over the world with different backgrounds, having a really clear policy, and not nebulous 'common sense', seems to me to be a good idea.
Like I said earlier I appreciate the GM participation here, but at times the answers given to less specific scenarios have been less than clear and I think that things like this really should be addressed.

People want EVE to be easier, when they had to click OKAY on a screen that says "EVE IS HARD" when they signed up.

Ow really, i am very sure that wasn't spelled out like that when i signed up back in '04.
No that i mind that its hard ....... i like it hard ......... that could have sounded so wrong in the wrong context

2. You start following somebody through highsec, repeatedly ganking them and they ask you directly to leave them alone. Gankings have no valid reason, or person yields in regards to whatever situation, then you are the one who should yield. Beyond that, it is intentional attempt to disrupt the enjoyment of the game which I did read is not allowed by EULA rules. Once you cross to the lowsec, this would really no longer apply it is PvP space.. Float in pirate space, you get blown, no avoiding of it. You can camp station, do whatever, person can leave lowsec to be rid of you. They have the options.

Are you kidding me? If you have actually been active since 2004 then you should already know eve is hard. Not my fault you are a 8 year old noob. The EVE IS HARD message was put out there a while back after people kept complaining about the difficult new player experience.

Your point is moot

You start following somebody through highsec, repeatedly ganking them and they ask you directly to leave them alone. Gankings have no valid reason, or person yields in regards to whatever situation, then you are the one who should yield. Beyond that, it is intentional attempt to disrupt the enjoyment of the game which I did read is not allowed by EULA rules. Once you cross to the lowsec, this would really no longer apply it is PvP space.. Float in pirate space, you get blown, no avoiding of it. You can camp station, do whatever, person can leave lowsec to be rid of you. They have the options.

In sandbox game thoguh couldn't I (my character) decide that I was going to follow someone around and make their life miserable for totally sociopathic reasons or perhaps no reason at all?

I think for the good of the person who is threatening suicide you should also suspend their account until you resolve the situation. You dont want to take any risks when RL is threatened

Why does it make a difference what space you are in? All of eve is pvp space. Simply killing someone is not harassment. A GM may may judge it as such at their discretion but they are incredibly careful about doing so and i think you would find if there was a reason behind you popping the guy every time he undocked there would be no issue. Someone who smacktalked or threatened for example. Even if it really was a case of constantly ganking a random guy the GM would probably do something simple like move the player so he could go about his business.

He's in TEST, he has no moral compass.

I attempted a suicide gank against The Wis today. It was a feeble attempt collect a bounty - 3b isk is a lot of money and a Thrasher was a small price to pay at a chance to get it. Do I feel The Wis is in any way responsible for this week's drama? Nope -- I assure you this was for the spaceship money.

He pulled out in a well-tanked cane and successfully got me and a T2 fitted Tornado blown up by Concord. I convo'ed him afterwards and complimented him on his successful bait.

Imagine that - he's playing the game the same as everyone else. The Wiz is not a "victim" - he is another eve player who happened to send the email that Mittens made an ass out of himself reading. (Let's not beat around the bush - Mittens was wrong for his actions and statements but let's try and avoid bringing that up here)

So, ridiculous people on an internet forum - should I be banned for harassment? I don't think so, however, some of you frothy types and CCP's own actions have put people being banned for similar actions in the realm of possibility and I have begun to worry.

I'm not going to argue about whether CCPs actions against The Mittani are warranted, but I will say this: The line for harassment needs to be clearly distinguished again. I'm not going to risk an EULA violation against my main character if all it takes to get banned is killing the same person 3-4 times in a day. What if he tells me he'll do something drastic if I kill him again? Is it now my responsibility, as a player of a /game/, to act appropriately for an individual who cannot distinguish reality from virtual spaceships?

Should I additionally suffer real-world consequences for not taking to heart some person's ranting?

People say stupid things when they're angry and upset. I've received death threats playing this game - like "I'm going to find you and kill you" type threats. Things that really make you pause. I discount them as the ramblings of someone who is obvious upset and let them slide. Being able to make the distinction between innocuos bile and an actual threat isn't necessary - we assume that the anonymity of the internet protects us and move on. If we are really worried we can petition CCP for action against that person's account. (If we're really ballsy we run for CSM and give our names out to a player base that hates us in real life for actions in a game)

Now what if someone I don't really know told me they were going to kill themselves because I blew up their ship? Just like the death threat I have no way of verifying the validity of that statement in the context of this person's mental state. However, is it my duty to report this person to CCP? Can we continue to shoot said person or move forward in a scam if such a statement is made mid-action? It may sound cold, but as a player of a game, we cannot police what we do not know and it should not be our responsibility to nanny a players mental well-being.

If I saw someone on the street about to jump off a ledge of course I'd stop and try and help, but this is a game and there is no ledge. No indication that what the person is saying holds any merit. Without context, the words are nothing but text on a screen.

It's really easy to take the moral high ground on these issues, especially when it's backed by vehement disdain for the parties involved. However, before making any rash decisions or labeling a large group of players "psychopaths" you should calm down, breath, take a step back and look at the policy implications of what you're describing.

In the past, people have been very clearly targeted for one reason or another - be it a corp you wardec'ed because they popped your low sec POS or said something mean about you in local. Hell, my alliance is in perpetual war dec with high sec griefing corps for no other reason than "we make easy targets". People have been targeted for writing articles on EN24 that were unfavorable towards certain alliances. In fact, whenever we're near BrickSquad..... (is that the right amount of dots?) now, we make it a point to single out and blow up Riverini or Darius III whenever possible. People pay for corpses of individuals. Entire Merc corps make a living out of "destroying" pilots. I could go on and on with examples of how individuals are targeted.

Where do these fall under the potentially new interpretation of harassment?

This is part of the narrative in Eve - it's what makes it interesting and dynamic for a large portion of the player base. If we set aside The Wiz's "suicide" statement (which, mind you, we do not have the context to identify its validity or intent), he is just another pawn in this narrative and perfectly ok playing this game.

So I pose this to CCP: Am I to be banned because his role in this narrative is already written permanently simply due to protection offered by words without context?

Serious question here, and I'm genuinely curious: If this was a clear violation of clear rules that don't require any interpretation that isn't already present, why did it take 5 days for him to be punished when video evidence was available mere hours after the incident took place?

This doesn't resolve the situation where all of this takes place inside the magic circle. If player A ganks player B and player B says "Leave me alone or I'm going to kill myself" in local chat but player B is in a freight full of plexs. What do you think is going to happen here? I wouldn't be surprised to see "Great, go ahead we'll loot your plexs" and quite frankly... I wouldn't vilify anyone for that. How is player A supposed to understand that context while in the circle? If it can be joked about there, why does the circle even matter?

You also just created a double standard by suggesting the idea of the magic circle as being in game but then enforcing the in game TOS and EULA at FANFEST which is clearly not in game.

I think your explanation just made things fuzzier to be honest.

Here. This. I fully agree with this sentiment.

Asking publicly for clarification is not a bad thing in light of the delicate natture of recent events.

Thank you GM Harmonia for offering that clarification.

DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.

Clarifying what exactly

That any other player would have been insta perma barred for such atrocities but as M gives Himlar the best reach rounds he wasnt?

Well, in the event of any other play getting permabanned, the person who was griefed probably had insisted it and expressed issue to such. 30 days is suitable and matches the knowledge of the situation. There was instigation of hate/harassment, so a temp ban for rules violation. The other person didn't seem to be concerned any more and probably didn't care, as such an extended/permanent should not have been applied. But each their own opinions. When this started, I said 30 days since the person to whom the comments were directed to was not concerned about the issue.