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SencneS
Amarr
Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2008.09.26 15:00:00 -
[31]
While I understand the need for an age limitation, I can't help but feel this has come too late. LaVista Vista I would ask CCP for a copy of the current NDA, as that appears to be the stopping point. Since you have had one signed on your behalf before look at the one that was signed.
If there is no age condition on the NDA, then I'm sorry to say CCP can go shove it. The documentation signed by a parent or legal guardian would suffer any legal action from CCP if you or the signer broke the NDA...
The next is a a grandfather policy, does the NDA current and one signed have a grandfather policy. As it stands right now YOU are currently and will always be bound by the NDA. Which means you don't have to sign another one, unless the NDA specifically says the NDA expires the moment you are not a CSM which put bluntly would be the most stupid NDA in existence. So I highly doubt, no I KNOW it will not have such a foolish policy.
Lastly... I take people to this - Win a tour of CCP Headquarters.
I take it since CCP legal department is so worried about legally binding NDA and age of majority that someone under the age of 21 will have absolutely NO CHANCE of winning this tour.. I mean after all I'm sure the winner will have to sign an NDA and since the NDA will most likely be exactly the same as the NDA a CSM signs I see no difference..
So CCP are you also going to put in the stipulation that you need to be 21 to win the tour?
Amarr for Life |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.09.26 15:17:00 -
[32]
woo I'm 21! although I still need that damn passport 
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Richard Angevian
The Crusaders.
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Posted - 2008.09.26 15:47:00 -
[33]
Good news: End of first CSM, end of the Jade Constantine vs Darius Johnson e-peen contest.
Bad news: There will be another CSM.
Look, I see the CSM as a complete waste of time and a complete waste of money. If you really want to find out what your players want, take that money and spend it on PROFESSIONALS to poll/survey us in a scientific, accurate way.
A bunch of ass clowns elected by the superpower blocs is NOT going to represent us in any meaningful way, as the first CSM proved.
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SPIONKOP
Caldari
Warp Core Tech
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Posted - 2008.09.26 15:52:00 -
[34]
It will be interesting to see how many actually vote this time. To be honest I am not sure if I can be arsed voting.
Since the CSM started Dev presence on the boards has almost become non-existant and hardly any dev blogs of substance to read.
I am not sure the intention was a dev black out but the CSM is a poor substitue for real information more of a smoke screen I fear.
I congratulate the CSM for achieving everything I thought it would achieve and lets face it the next CSM can hardly fail to do anyworse but I suspect it will be consistant and achieve much the same.
Sweet FA
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Space For Rent.
100mil ISK/Week.
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DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.09.26 16:25:00 -
[35]
 Originally by: CCP Xhagen
As for the content of the devblog - we decided not to name specific topics brought up by the CSM and where they were in the development plan because a) we foresaw a less-than-ideal competition between CSMs where 'A did more than B', b) the longterm gameplay issues that were discusses can not be put into a single line in patch notes c) enumerating topics would also lead to stating the time of implementation, ultimately leading to finger-pointing at us or the CSM in question when the schedule changes. It is our believe that pointing fingers doesn't really solve anything.
Xhagen,
a) If some CSMs have a greater impact than others, then its a good thing. I didn't agree with most of them, but if one vision was dominant then its better than mixing/matching a lot of wildly different paths. Maybe future CSMs will learn what ideas are pointless to suggest, and what to aim for. You're protecting their feelings after they've just been flamed by half the community.
b) So put them in a blog?
c) Actually, pointing a finger in the direction the company and game are moving does solve a big problem with communication. You're essentially avoiding details and specifics because it might be too uncomfortable or difficult in the future when something changes. Yes, you'll hear a verbal shitstorm if you drop or delay something, but the silence of a hundred thousand disgruntled players that have nothing to talk about (besides there being nothing to talk about) isn't a better alternative.
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Bane Glorious
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:10:00 -
[36]
Personally, I would have chosen another way of expressing the phrase "****ing contest" in a dev blog. |
Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.09.26 17:49:00 -
[37]
Originally by: blog
The short answer is yes. A slightly longer answer is that already have we been shown that we have a slightly different take on certain aspects of EVE than the players do; on other aspects we were on the same page as players. The alternative view provided by the CSM did thus change how we think about a lot of things while convincing us that we were heading in the right direction in other areas.
This is good to hear.
Originally by: blog
We decided against enumerating the CSM's accomplishments - this is not a ****ing contest. We know they made a difference and we are confident that the council will continue to make a difference.
This however, while I understand the reasoning behind it, will sound to many a casual reader like "they did stuff, but we're not telling you what" which is often taken to mean "they didn't do anything but we don't want to look stupid".
If you want the community to believe that the CSM is having a positive effect then we need to hear about what is being achieved even if we will have to wait a year to see it. Listing a few key ways in which the CSM has improved the game for the majority of players is not engaging in a "****ing contest" it's evidence that the entire thing is not a waste of time, effort, and money beyond the publicity generated.
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sakana
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.26 18:02:00 -
[38]
btw thanks for keep the players up to date on whats goin on with regular minutes/blogs/updates....
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Kalvor Azrael
Minmatar
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.09.26 21:17:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Jonhill Gallent
However if that is truly the legal position you have to take under Icelandic law then under the same rules surely you will have to ban account holders that are under 21 from voting as well?
I know of no democratic system in the world that allows participation in the vote but forbids membership of the elected body.
Allow me to point you to Article 1 of the United States Constitution, which describes the powers of the legislative branch as well as qualifications needed. Amongst them are:
"No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years....
and
"No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years"
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Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
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Posted - 2008.09.26 22:52:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Kalvor Azrael
Allow me to point you to Article 1 of the United States Constitution, which describes the powers of the legislative branch as well as qualifications needed. Amongst them are:
"No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years....
and
"No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years"
Thats all well and good, however, the first election was done with the approval of CCP knowing LVV's age. He asked them first. If they said no, he would not have been voted in already. To redact their prior decision appears foolhardy.
I understand going forward new rules may wish to be added, but there is no reason to cut off someone whos done a very good job of not only representing but of organizing, clarifying and quantifying issues.
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D'ceet
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.09.26 22:57:00 -
[41]
looks like i better get my passport in time this time 
yeah, ill be attempting to run again v0v
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Tomblinu
Diversified Strategic Services
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Posted - 2008.09.27 04:40:00 -
[42]
I'm a bit surprised that there's no one under the age of 21 working at CCP. I have always thought of it as a youthful sort of company, but I assume that executing an NDA would be a condition of employment.
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fuze
Gallente
Chosen Path
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.09.27 12:45:00 -
[43]
Pherhaps you ladies expected too much from the CSM?
If there is anything good that came out of the CSM would be the concentration of discussions as well a shoving a lot of important topics into CCP's court. At least you have a fair shot at getting your viewpoint heard instead of CCP choosing to ignore it. Too bad that the majority of CCP's reactions were overdue or even lacking. If anything they need to step it up with the 2nd batch of CSM.
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Mallikanth
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Posted - 2008.09.27 14:42:00 -
[44]
What would the players prefer?
a) No CSM at all
b) A CSM whos influence, although limited, is deemed to have some effect? (Otherwise why bother?)
I vote for point b
I seem to be in fanboy mode today and yet another well done CCP post from moi.
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.09.27 18:47:00 -
[45]
oh shit ... so I lost my candidate for the next CSM ... pity ... I had the impression that LVV was the best of the bunch ...
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.28 01:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Kalvor Azrael
Allow me to point you to Article 1 of the United States Constitution, which describes the powers of the legislative branch as well as qualifications needed. Amongst them are:
"No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years....
and
"No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years"
Yes, but at the time that the US Constitution was written, the legal structure around ages of majority and ages of voting was far different than it is today. Voting rights were primarily based on property, not age(or gender, for that matter - women were not explicitly barred from voting in most countries until the mid 19th century). Now, the massively bigoted nature of property law 150+ years ago did have a similar effect, but there were next to no age requirements anywhere.
Thus, Madison et al decided to make explicit age requirements, instead of leaving it up to the really chaotic system that existed at the time. They made rules on who eligible electors were up to the States, by making them identical to the rules on the electors for the largest house of the State's legislature ("The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.") but they made eligibility for the positions explicit, in large part to be able to embed residency requirements(and in the case of the President, birth requirements) to address their concerns about possible foreign undermining of the electoral system.
Given the difficulty of amending the Constitution, these requirements have never been changed, leaving them a rather outdated and confusing fix to a system that was broken 221 years ago.
Jonhill was wrong, and you were right to call him on it. But that doesn't mean that the age requirements in the US Constitution are something that CCP should be emulating.
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Fix the forums! |
Tharim
Villains
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Posted - 2008.09.30 16:20:00 -
[47]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
The age limit was introduced because of practical legal reasons (and no other reason), as to sign a legal contract like the NDA is, one has to have reached the 'Age of Majority'. Needless to say I got very funny looks when people learned that there was no age limit for the CSM.
The agelimit is not connected to Lavista Vista in any way, form or fashion. His work has been superb.
As for the content of the devblog - we decided not to name specific topics brought up by the CSM and where they were in the development plan because a) we foresaw a less-than-ideal competition between CSMs where 'A did more than B', b) the longterm gameplay issues that were discusses can not be put into a single line in patch notes c) enumerating topics would also lead to stating the time of implementation, ultimately leading to finger-pointing at us or the CSM in question when the schedule changes. It is our believe that pointing fingers doesn't really solve anything.
I realize that my above paragraph might be considered to be worded in a cold and a harsh manner, I'd rather want to think it was phrased honestly. The CSM has influence - it is that simple.
And furthermore, the unfortunate lack of 'CSM-delegate' forumtag is a technical matter that became apparent when I started the new election cycle. It does not mean that the current CSM has been removed - it is simply a technical glitch related to our efforts to protect the identity of the altcharacters on the delegates' accounts; it is no problem to flag the user as being a CSM delegate and thus give it the tag, but that would reveal all the characters on that account - thus each and every character had to be flagged and that is technically more complicated (I'm told  )
Eh,whats wrong with fingerpointing? Wasnt this supposed to be so cool and democratic? Isnt the ability to see what your elected candidate actually does, and then point the finger if he/she doesnt do it right, one of the cornerstones of a democracy? I vote for fingerpointing. |
Threv Echandari
Caldari
K Directorate
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Posted - 2008.09.30 16:41:00 -
[48]
I do Think LVV Should be Grandfathered in especially if he is 18 (I thought that was the AOM in Iceland). I liked his attitude towards players (no matter how rude they may have been to him) and I think he was an excellent example of a CSM.
As for not Enumerting HOW the CSMs have made an impact. I think you are dead wrong. If the CSMs made and Impact than it should be clearly spelled out. As others have stated knowing "What works and What doesn't" with respect to the kind of input that you need keeps future CSMs from reinventing the wheel. If CCP Decides to change course or Go Down a Diffrent path So be it. Explain your Decisions in Devblog and deal with what follows. The CSM is Good idea but WE the players can't tell how effective it is because CCP won't give us feedback then the players will cease to care and this grand experiment will whither away because no will will believe (lacking any corroboration on Your part) that they did anything.
Lack of Feedback is your users's biggest complaint (behind lag) and is the easiest one to Fix. It just needs a willingness on your part to not be so close to the vest. It's not you are a publicly traded company where your stock price will fall if you deliver bad news. Many players may not like what you have to say but if they are going to vote with their wallets they will do so regardless of whether its news from a blog or the implementation of a feature. Let us know HOW the CSMs affected your thinking and let us be the judge of their actions, after all we elected them.
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Happiness is a Wet Pod
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Solomunio Kzenig
Amarr
VITOC
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Posted - 2008.10.01 01:58:00 -
[49]
^^ This.
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Deej Montana
Caldari
Outbound Flight
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Posted - 2008.10.01 19:58:00 -
[50]
I'm no great fan of the way things get done (or often don't seem to get done) at CCP, but I give them and all of the CSM delegates great credit for at least trying to do what they felt was for the good of all.
As with any new endeavor things were a bit rocky at times, but in the end it seems that a lot of important issues were raised and passed from the players through the CSM onto CCP for consideration.
As a player who regularly reads, but doesn't often post on the forums, I've seen a ton of animosity and vitriol thrown around regarding the CSM. To balance that out a tiny bit I just wanted to say "thank you" to all CSM delegates and to CCP. The process had some flaws and can certainly be improved upon, but IMO this first session of the CSM was a very good start.
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2008.10.03 16:30:00 -
[51]
Some additions have been made to the blog, they are marked in green. 
Wrangler
Community Manager
CCP Hf, EVE Online
Email
Reducing lag in EVE: The Jita Conundrum - StacklessIO or: How We Reduced Lag - Such Stuff As Dreams Are Made On - EVE64 - More to come... |
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CCP Xhagen
C C P
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Posted - 2008.10.03 16:55:00 -
[52]
Long story short - the enactment of the 21 year old rule has been postponed and will take effect for the 3rd CSM. Anyone, under the age of 21, will not be eligible for the third installment of the CSM.
Many questions have been posed in regards to the age and why it is at 21. First off, the age limit is due to legal reasons like has been stated before. There is no other reason behind it.
The reason for number, 21, is transparency and simplicity. The Age of Majority varies between nations, and it even varies within a nation. Having a clause stating that you have to be of the Age of Majority is not sufficient, as a person born in Mississippi state (and having a passport issued there) in the US and living in Scotland will present us with a bit of a problem. The Age of Majority in Mississippi is 21, in Scotland it is 16 and further more, in Iceland it is 18. (all according to Wikipedia). Which age should be used? The simplest solution was to take the highest Age of Majority and use that - to prevent any confusion.
I hope this solution is one that is acceptable.
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EVE Online
CCP Games |
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Zikka
Hematite Rose
Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.10.03 17:07:00 -
[53]
This does seem fairer. A good decision. :)
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Omber Zombie
Gallente
Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2008.10.03 17:48:00 -
[54]
just thought i should mention that you may want to link people to the sign up page - most people (at least that I have talked to) don't seem to know that you can sign up right now...
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CSM 08 Blog |
Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.10.03 17:55:00 -
[55]
I got to agree with the ugly Gallente above me. I dont think that many people are aware that signups have already started.
Might I suggest a Sticky Thread in General Discussion.
p.s. Oz I still wub you, eve if mods did nerf my love showing sig for you....
p.s.s. kudos to LV for being unaged nerfed. Now I will have to figure out another ploy for his defeat.
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acwdc78
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Posted - 2008.10.03 20:07:00 -
[56]
What are the requirements for the position other than age?
Be able to pay for travel? Time? Contracts?
etc
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.10.03 20:18:00 -
[57]
Originally by: acwdc78
What are the requirements for the position other than age?
Be able to pay for travel? Time? Contracts?
etc
The trip is covered by CCP. But you HAVE to be able to take out a weekend of your time to go to Iceland.
You also gotta be able to take time out of your calendar to be active as a CSM member. That's extremely important.
And you gotta sign a NDA.
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.10.03 21:34:00 -
[58]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: acwdc78
What are the requirements for the position other than age?
Be able to pay for travel? Time? Contracts?
etc
The trip is covered by CCP. But you HAVE to be able to take out a weekend of your time to go to Iceland.
You also gotta be able to take time out of your calendar to be active as a CSM member. That's extremely important.
And you gotta sign a NDA.
Dont forget the current valid passport with your application..... |
Bull Frog
Amarr
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Associates
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Posted - 2008.10.08 16:10:00 -
[59]
I may have missed it, but how many trips to Iceland did the CSM make? Was it just the one meeting? And how many trips are planned for CSM 2.0? This little bit of info may be pertinent to anyone even toying with the idea of putting their name in the helm.
Your signature has been proven to be the cause of node crashes and immense lag. -Kreul Intentions |
jcoutepascher
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.08 20:49:00 -
[60]
i Have several questions regarding this both for ccp & the candidates:
- Where can i see / inquiry about issues that the CSM will push for (theire agenda)
- Where can i propose ideas to CSM/CCP
- Is there any public records of what was proposed/rejected+reason
- If elected do candidates have to phisicaly go anywhere
- where can i see a list of CSM Elected & Candidates when the election starts
- what is the influence/importance of CSM in regards to CCP considering they represent customers & theire views
- what is the main population type in the CSM (ie care bears,allied, independent,PVP,miner, industrialist) & what proportions of each ( in %)
i am a customer .
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