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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2008.09.25 22:57:00 -
[1]
Xhagen writes about the beginning of the first CSM and the start they got off to, a bit about what happened and how the CSM is moving forward into the future. The full story is available in First CSM term close to ending, warming up for the second one!
Wrangler
Community Manager
CCP Hf, EVE Online
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StinkFinger
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.09.25 23:21:00 -
[2]
Hopefully the second csm panel does a better job.
 Originally by: Karanth
That's like sitting on your hand till it goes numb, so it's like a stranger. It's not as satisfying, and I'LL know the difference.
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Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2008.09.25 23:47:00 -
[3]
Originally by: StinkFinger
Hopefully the second csm panel does a better job.
Maybe if you take your finger out of where-it-stinks and VOTE, it will!
≡v≡ Strategic Maps in Eve-Online Store | eve-maps.com |
Ankhesentapemkah
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Posted - 2008.09.25 23:52:00 -
[4]
If you want it done right, run for it yourself.
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Thanks for all that supported me. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.26 00:22:00 -
[5]
Quote:
the biggest change is the 21 year age limit to be a valid candidate.
Will this rule be grandfathered in, specifically in regards to LaVista Vista?
I might as well get that question answered now, to forestall any rabble rabble that might occur once the elections start up again, and a part of the electorate feels slighted that they can not vote back in for a second term someone they feel was an effective representive.
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DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.09.26 00:27:00 -
[6]
Even if it takes 6-12 months to see changes proliferate, it doesn't stop you from talking about them now. What are you taking a second look at because of the CSM? What changes have you made to development schedule? Get into specifics and comparison, so we can see if anything has changed a year from now because of CSM influence (and not just a year going by).
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Synapse Archae
Amarr
Demonic Retribution
G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.09.26 01:29:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 26/09/2008 01:29:36
WHERES THE BEEF?
At least mention some things the CSM brought up that are actully on the schedule now. Even if its just the schedule to be scheduled to be considered for possible development, maybe.
This dev blog feels empty.
Originally by: CCP Garthagk
While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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StinkFinger
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.09.26 01:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 26/09/2008 01:29:36
WHERES THE BEEF?
At least mention some things the CSM brought up that are actully on the schedule now. Even if its just the schedule to be scheduled to be considered for possible development, maybe.
This dev blog feels empty.
It feels empty cuz the list of CSM accomplishments is empty.
Originally by: Karanth
That's like sitting on your hand till it goes numb, so it's like a stranger. It's not as satisfying, and I'LL know the difference.
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.09.26 02:53:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Franga on 26/09/2008 02:53:06
There was no mention here of what has happened thanks to the input of the CSM.
There's alot of flowery language and positive 'vibe', but not alot of concrete proof or evidence of things being affected because the CSM exists. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not pointing the finger at the CSM and saying they haven't done anything.
I'm saying the dev-blog is crap. It's alot of words with no substance.
Also, this wasn't the dev-blog we were really looking for. |
Ethidium Bromide
Amarr
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.26 07:07:00 -
[10]
good job funny guys! first term is always teh hardest i guess as people have high expectations and no clue on both sides!
maybe i'll run for the second term butnjust for giggles but with only my own vote i'd look sad
Originally by: George Petsch
Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.09.26 07:08:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Treelox
Quote:
the biggest change is the 21 year age limit to be a valid candidate.
Will this rule be grandfathered in, specifically in regards to LaVista Vista?
I might as well get that question answered now, to forestall any rabble rabble that might occur once the elections start up again, and a part of the electorate feels slighted that they can not vote back in for a second term someone they feel was an effective representive.
I really couldn't tell you. But my feeling is no.
But sadly CCP has not even had the courtesey to let us know why this rule was enforced, since age proved to not be a problem at all. They haven't bothered replying to my emails either.
So yeah, I was quite devastated to be informed that this was the case. But what can I do 
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.26 07:21:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Treelox on 26/09/2008 07:22:24
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Treelox
Quote:
the biggest change is the 21 year age limit to be a valid candidate.
Will this rule be grandfathered in, specifically in regards to LaVista Vista?
I might as well get that question answered now, to forestall any rabble rabble that might occur once the elections start up again, and a part of the electorate feels slighted that they can not vote back in for a second term someone they feel was an effective representive.
I really couldn't tell you. But my feeling is no.
But sadly CCP has not even had the courtesey to let us know why this rule was enforced, since age proved to not be a problem at all. They haven't bothered replying to my emails either.
So yeah, I was quite devastated to be informed that this was the case. But what can I do
Sadly this seems like a personal nerf directed against your re-election. As anyone familar with politics knows the incumbant always stands a better chance at being elected(baring ethics issues) than a "newcomer". Since if I remeber correctly this NERF applies only to you out of the current batch, it seems that CCP is trying their hardest to covertly not allow you on the next council.
Maybe I tinfoil too much, maybe I stuck a grain of truth. Whichever the case may be, I really, without detailed reasoning from CCP on this change in policy, fail to see this as anything but a blatant ploy to stop you from being on the 2nd CSM.
What are they afraid of? A 17 year old Dane?
---edit
typo(s)
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Mr Horizontal
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.26 07:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Treelox
Quote:
the biggest change is the 21 year age limit to be a valid candidate.
Will this rule be grandfathered in, specifically in regards to LaVista Vista?
I might as well get that question answered now, to forestall any rabble rabble that might occur once the elections start up again, and a part of the electorate feels slighted that they can not vote back in for a second term someone they feel was an effective representive.
I really couldn't tell you. But my feeling is no.
But sadly CCP has not even had the courtesey to let us know why this rule was enforced, since age proved to not be a problem at all. They haven't bothered replying to my emails either.
So yeah, I was quite devastated to be informed that this was the case. But what can I do
This is... really somewhat unfortunate and a little shortsighted too. After all the next expansion is MIDAS - all about industry, and LV is the champion delegate of exactly that area.
While I understand that the notion of a 21 age limit perhaps should be in place, I think in LV's case a clause 'except whereby people under this age have already held office in a previous CSM' should be added.
LV: raise it as an issue in the assembly, so we can vote about it.
Director | www.eve-bank.net |
Typhado3
Minmatar
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.26 08:12:00 -
[14]
I'm not an expert on what the CSM have done but I remember the dev blog on their input as well as going through the assembly hall and from that I think they've done a good job. so thank you csm and maybe this time I'll get off my ass and vote someone in who will listen to my minmatar whining 
CCP please look at mining agent mining mission %..... I want better than 60% mining missions from a mining agent =( |
QwaarJet
Gallente
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.09.26 08:51:00 -
[15]
Let's hope people vote for the right folk rather than just big forum names.
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Sopha Serpentia
Core Dynamics
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Posted - 2008.09.26 08:57:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Sopha Serpentia on 26/09/2008 08:57:55
The best bit:-
Quote:
"for example factional warfare took 3 years to develop"
Living proof that you guys indeed suck as designers, as programmers, as project managers.
All factional warfare was was a very minor addition to the warfare mechanics already in play.
It takes 5 years to develop a main title such as MASS EFFECT, including the graphic engine! It took 4 years to develop SPORE. Infact Maxis made 16 seperate versions of the same game and took it to beta before picking the one they though the most people would like.
It took you 3 years to develop a simple add on pack for this game? Admit it! You suck.
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.09.26 09:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sopha Serpentia
Edited by: Sopha Serpentia on 26/09/2008 08:57:55
The best bit:-
Quote:
"for example factional warfare took 3 years to develop"
Living proof that you guys indeed suck as designers, as programmers, as project managers.
All factional warfare was was a very minor addition to the warfare mechanics already in play.
It takes 5 years to develop a main title such as MASS EFFECT, including the graphic engine! It took 4 years to develop SPORE. Infact Maxis made 16 seperate versions of the same game and took it to beta before picking the one they though the most people would like.
It took you 3 years to develop a simple add on pack for this game? Admit it! You suck.
Your post is so full of fail that it is not even funny to rip it apart.
I mean, you have to be completely ignorant to all the other stuff besides factional warfare that CCP has added to the game over those three years. Not the least a new graphic engine.
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Mr. Science & Trade Institute
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TimGascoigne
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Posted - 2008.09.26 10:05:00 -
[18]
I think the campaign this time round will be more helpful than last time.
This time I reckon that there will be less campaigning on personality and more emphasis on policies. Which should not be a hard task since most candidates last time did not seem to have a manifesto.
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Ethidium Bromide
Amarr
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.26 10:38:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Sopha Serpentia
Edited by: Sopha Serpentia on 26/09/2008 08:57:55
The best bit:-
Quote:
"for example factional warfare took 3 years to develop"
Living proof that you guys indeed suck as designers, as programmers, as project managers.
All factional warfare was was a very minor addition to the warfare mechanics already in play.
It takes 5 years to develop a main title such as MASS EFFECT, including the graphic engine! It took 4 years to develop SPORE. Infact Maxis made 16 seperate versions of the same game and took it to beta before picking the one they though the most people would like.
It took you 3 years to develop a simple add on pack for this game? Admit it! You suck.
it is sad people like you have a vote here and in rl.
you are obviously what's wrong with the world.
Originally by: George Petsch
Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
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Uzume Ame
Gallente
Dark Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2008.09.26 10:51:00 -
[20]
No, sadlly he stands correct, CCP is subpar when it comes to shedulles and implementation in gaming industry (which is allready bad enough compared to other industries, no excuses sorry). I can't blame they probably have a poorly developed engine from the beginning (maybe it would be best to rework the engine totally at this point with current experience as a paralel project, EVE 2.0) and adding any small feature takes ages, I don't know the quality of their team currentlly, can't judge, but from an outsider and paying customer it looks like... bad. They "just" had a nice idea and it worked and have stayed in competition because, well, they have no competition.
Hopefully that will change someday and then CCP better wake up.
Teh failure of a signature. |
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WeightedCompanionCube
Aperture Science Enrichment Center
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Posted - 2008.09.26 11:04:00 -
[21]
It is funny to see the CCP development cycle is longer then the period in which the CSM serves. What if the new CSM has radically different views to the previous one, what happens then ?
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Ethidium Bromide
Amarr
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.26 11:13:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Uzume Ame
No, sadlly he stands correct, CCP is subpar when it comes to shedulles and implementation in gaming industry (which is allready bad enough compared to other industries, no excuses sorry). I can't blame they probably have a poorly developed engine from the beginning (maybe it would be best to rework the engine totally at this point with current experience as a paralel project, EVE 2.0) and adding any small feature takes ages, I don't know the quality of their team currentlly, can't judge, but from an outsider and paying customer it looks like... bad. They "just" had a nice idea and it worked and have stayed in competition because, well, they have no competition.
Hopefully that will change someday and then CCP better wake up.
tbh maybe this is just me and i find it rather ridiculous to compare the whole gaming industry with some engineering branch wher you have a fixed goal and decades of experience to work with as well as established tools and methods.
also i think it is subpar to compare games like spore (the only online part in spore is importing files to fill the 'universe' at least the only online part i have sen when watching friends play) and eve (an mmorpg with a sandbox approach).
if you develope a game that simply goes a straight line 3 years for an add on might well be too much.
when you have thousands of people coming to you with ideas every day on how to do it (not just 'pink spaceships' shit) and what they want and how it might but must not influence them etc. then i guess 3 years is a pretty good time.
Originally by: George Petsch
Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.09.26 11:25:00 -
[23]
ah shit the same reason I can't go to fanfest this year, damn passport takes forever :P
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Uzume Ame
Gallente
Dark Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2008.09.26 11:34:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ethidium Bromide
when you have thousands of people coming to you with ideas every day on how to do it (not just 'pink spaceships' shit) and what they want and how it might but must not influence them etc. then i guess 3 years is a pretty good time.
if you have good planning, thousands of people coming with ideas is not a problem, more if you don't hear them, which is the case. Actually how much of what was spected for FW has been implemented? Seriouslly how much newq code can you see behind it? You seriouslly think that got 3 years to develop?
I understand the ideosincracy of MMORPGs and that's why we all give a bit mroe of maneouver space to CCP (and other houses I suppose), but still is sad that it got 3 years to implement FW in the current stage when it could have been a real big thing.
Teh failure of a signature. |
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CCP Xhagen
C C P
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Posted - 2008.09.26 11:35:00 -
[25]
The age limit was introduced because of practical legal reasons (and no other reason), as to sign a legal contract like the NDA is, one has to have reached the 'Age of Majority'. Needless to say I got very funny looks when people learned that there was no age limit for the CSM.
The agelimit is not connected to Lavista Vista in any way, form or fashion. His work has been superb.
As for the content of the devblog - we decided not to name specific topics brought up by the CSM and where they were in the development plan because a) we foresaw a less-than-ideal competition between CSMs where 'A did more than B', b) the longterm gameplay issues that were discusses can not be put into a single line in patch notes c) enumerating topics would also lead to stating the time of implementation, ultimately leading to finger-pointing at us or the CSM in question when the schedule changes. It is our believe that pointing fingers doesn't really solve anything.
I realize that my above paragraph might be considered to be worded in a cold and a harsh manner, I'd rather want to think it was phrased honestly. The CSM has influence - it is that simple.
And furthermore, the unfortunate lack of 'CSM-delegate' forumtag is a technical matter that became apparent when I started the new election cycle. It does not mean that the current CSM has been removed - it is simply a technical glitch related to our efforts to protect the identity of the altcharacters on the delegates' accounts; it is no problem to flag the user as being a CSM delegate and thus give it the tag, but that would reveal all the characters on that account - thus each and every character had to be flagged and that is technically more complicated (I'm told  )
____________________________
EVE Online
CCP Games |
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.09.26 12:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
The age limit was introduced because of practical legal reasons (and no other reason), as to sign a legal contract like the NDA is, one has to have reached the 'Age of Majority'. Needless to say I got very funny looks when people learned that there was no age limit for the CSM.
I'm of course flattered by the kinds works. But I can't help but trying to think of it this way, for the benefit of the community and integrity of this virtual democracy that has been established.
According to that wiki page, the age of majority in Iceland is 18.
Also, the NDA has been signed on behalf of me. If there actually was any problems with that, I must assume my candidacy should have been rejected in the first place. So it seems to me like you are putting an arbitary limit(3 years older than needed), that you are trying to fix something which is working fine and that it's simply because people gave you funny looks.
I'm disappointed that we went a long way to actually make the CSM into an virtual democracy, where everybody is equal as long as they have an active account. Things worked fine. But people's prejudice had to change this.
The CSM was given tons of PR by being a diverse range of people, all the way from computer science students to big bosses from international companies.
I think it's really harsh to put it this way. I'm idealist, lets say that. However, I think there's a grain of truth.
Quote:
As for the content of the devblog - we decided not to name specific topics brought up by the CSM and where they were in the development plan because a) we foresaw a less-than-ideal competition between CSMs where 'A did more than B', b) the longterm gameplay issues that were discusses can not be put into a single line in patch notes c) enumerating topics would also lead to stating the time of implementation, ultimately leading to finger-pointing at us or the CSM in question when the schedule changes. It is our believe that pointing fingers doesn't really solve anything.
I can understand this. But you are now assuming people will put forward incorrect assumptions. If people do start going down this path, they just be corrected as for how it works.
But I understand that there will always be trolls. But if we want to screen ourselves from them by not giving the community the ability to be convinced of the influence that the CSM indeed has, then it's a prove that the community is fundamtentally broken. Not that I think it can be easily fixed, but it could helped quite a bit by improving CCP's communication with the player base. Lots of trolling happens because of the lack of communication that's been going on for the last 1-2 years. I think CSM has helped a bit, but the CSM has been the target of a lot of this trolling too.
You don't convince anybody by waving the hand and stating: "The CSM has influence", despite how much I agree with you Xhagen. There NEEDS to be proof. Be it by tagging in patch-notes or some good answers to our issues, you decide.
I'm sorry if I come off as slightly bitter. I'm very happy that I did indeed get this one chance to get the CSM started off properly. It's just a shame it had to turn out this way.
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Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2008.09.26 13:13:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre on 26/09/2008 13:15:33
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
The age limit was introduced because of practical legal reasons (and no other reason), as to sign a legal contract like the NDA is, one has to have reached the 'Age of Majority'. Needless to say I got very funny looks when people learned that there was no age limit for the CSM.
The agelimit is not connected to Lavista Vista in any way, form or fashion. His work has been superb.
All you would need to do is stipulate that any candidate must meet the Age of Majority in both their own country AND in Iceland (So For Example, a Scotsman (AoM = 16) would need to be 18 to Apply as thats the AoM for Iceland, while someone from Singapore would need to be 21 as thats the Legal AoM in that country.)
Meanwhile, for Example, LVV is a Danish Citizen (AoM = 18) and so would be eligable to run provided his candidacy began after his 18th Birthday.
Edit: As LVV stipulated above, the NDA was signed on his behalf as he was below the AoM at the time, why is this being rejected as an option for future?
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Inanna Zuni
Minmatar
The Causality
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.09.26 13:37:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre
All you would need to do is stipulate that any candidate must meet the Age of Majority in both their own country AND in Iceland (So For Example, a Scotsman (AoM = 16) would need to be 18 to Apply as thats the AoM for Iceland, while someone from Singapore would need to be 21 as thats the Legal AoM in that country.)
Whilst this might, at first sight, seem a solution it would only take a moment until someone pointed out that this is an internet game and thus local legalities shouldn't get in the way to such an extent that if you are 19 in the 'wrong' country you get penalised. And I'd agree with that view. I'd also like to think that will all the pre-nomination effort LVV has been putting in to his second run at the CSM he'd get the chance to do so though I can very much understand the legal view on this. (That the NDA was signed on his behalf holds no legal water in that *he* cannot be punished for releasing protected information, only the person who signed the NDA on his behalf; he as an individual is free of the NDA obligations and, yes, it is a great pity that this wasn't in place the first time around.)
So far as what the first incarnation of the CSM may or may not have succeeded at, I believe it has accomplished much. Not only in game mechanics and implementation of new ideas, but in the generation of a new motivation by CCP Devs and management in how we as players view this universe we 'live' in. As Xhagen has noted, and any analyst or programmer will have experienced, what the developer of a product or piece of software thinks is how it works is very rarely the way the actual users of that product truly make use of it, and EVE is no different in that respect.
I'm not standing for a second term this time around. Each person is limited to two 'sessions' on the Council and I want to see some of our efforts come to fruition before standing again (and just maybe because I'd like to see others get lashed at by the forum *****s who complain so much but won't shut up or put up) but I believe there is a very positive future for the Council in its next incarnation, and the one after, etc etc. I hope that the work we've done will inspire new candidates from all corners of the 'verse to come forward and seek election; the wide range of backgrounds and experience in the first CSM was made it (mostly) work, and imho that is needed again for the best benefit of all pilots.
The members of this CSM will be at FanFest and will be happy to talk with everyone. If you are going to throw things at us please not rotten fruit but support for what we've tried to do. It has, in many ways, been a pretty thankless task, and we've given over a lot of our otherwise 'free' time to do our job (and had far less time to be 'active in pod' as a result too). Feel free to buy us drinks though ;-P
IZ
My principles
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Jonhill Gallent
United Systems Navy
Unitary Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.09.26 14:24:00 -
[29]
OK so you have decided to limit CSM representatives to 21 years old or older on what appears to be extremely spurious 'Age of Majority' grounds. I do appreciate that you may be unable to look for legal routes of redress against offenders, but CCP do have the right to perma-ban the individual from the game in response. However if that is truly the legal position you have to take under Icelandic law then under the same rules surely you will have to ban account holders that are under 21 from voting as well? I know of no democratic system in the world that allows participation in the vote but forbids membership of the elected body. Have you just opened up a can of worms that may see the death of what was a truly open democratic system? I for one hope not and hope you reconsider your position.
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.26 14:28:00 -
[30]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
The age limit was introduced because of practical legal reasons (and no other reason), as to sign a legal contract like the NDA is, one has to have reached the 'Age of Majority'. Needless to say I got very funny looks when people learned that there was no age limit for the CSM.
If you look back over your dev blog threads from back in the spring, this was pointed out by a fair few players. Yet this point was brought up a few times during the that thread back in the spring. You chose to ignore its importance, where CCP's lawyers even asked for their opinion?
Examples 1 ... 2 ... 3
LV, since Xhagen implies that your NDA is not legally binding, might I suggest you start an auction amongst their competition. :P
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
The agelimit is not connected to Lavista Vista in any way, form or fashion. His work has been superb.
Ahh but it is, connected to LV since he is the one most directly being effected by this change in policy. He asked as did a few others when you first published that dev blog back on March 18th if age was an issue even considering the legal implications of a NDA. You didnt see it as a problem then, and now you do?? It sure seems while even if not intended it is connected towards LV as he has already started the ground work for he his re-election. Especially considering that he has the advantage, which you have just cut out from underneath his legs, of being an incumbent canidate.
In all fairness you really should grandfather him in. This new age limit should only really apply to future canidates and council memebers, not current ones.
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