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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:02:00 -
[1]
The training times are horrendous. Shouldn't need the small and medium training if all you are interested in is large weapon combat because you fly nothing but battleships.
Turret training needs to change so it works more like missiles, with missiles I don't feel like I have wasted 6 months training stupid skills I never plan to use, if I had to go up in rocket and standard and heavy specialization to get to cruise or torps I'd be slashing my wrists.
The current system just makes it horrid to cross train, to go from blasters to projectiles to beams is just a freaking nightmare. It is silly that going from Caldari to Amarr to Minmatar battleship 5 is trivial compared to learning the difference between a blaster, autocannon and laser turret.
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Faife
Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:06:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Veldya The current system just makes it horrid to cross train, to go from blasters to projectiles to beams is just a freaking nightmare. It is silly that going from Caldari to Amarr to Minmatar battleship 5 is trivial compared to learning the difference between a blaster, autocannon and laser turret.
truth, cause Caldari Battleship clearly doesn't require Caldari Frigate or Caldari Cruiser. - - - i am a humble and inefficent ammo to dps converter |
P'uck
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:09:00 -
[3]
You have no idea what he just said, right?
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:14:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Veldya on 25/09/2008 15:14:23
Originally by: Faife
truth, cause Caldari Battleship clearly doesn't require Caldari Frigate or Caldari Cruiser.
To get Cruise you still need Standard 3 and Heavy 3. In fact, I wouldn't mind them being 4s, it is the 5th rank that bogs you down, then you have to go into specialization skills for something you don't need to be an expert with.
The training time to go from nothing in Frigate to 5 in BS is trivial compared to the time required to go up a whole turret type.
In fact, it is significantly easier to get into Capital weaponry. It just seems bizzarely too complex give you can get named T1s that are just as effective is T2s, you are basically just going through the hassle for the high damage ammo.
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Jethro Jechonias
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:19:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Jethro Jechonias on 25/09/2008 15:20:29
Originally by: Veldya In fact, it is significantly easier to get into Capital weaponry. It just seems bizzarely too complex give you can get named T1s that are just as effective is T2s, you are basically just going through the hassle for the high damage ammo.
... and the 2-10% damage bonus, and the huge reduction in module cost.
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Vigilant
Gallente Vigilant's Vigilante's
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:22:00 -
[6]
I have all medium t2 gun skills at 4 atm. Took some time I admit. But I will say this, took forever for my alt to get get 18 mill sp alone in missiles. So, basically choose a path, cause at the end of day they both suck a**.
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P'uck
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:23:00 -
[7]
I always wondered whether there was a real reason why it's so much faster to train for t2 launchers compared to t2 guns.
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Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:28:00 -
[8]
got all hybrid specilizations to 5 and your complaining
think about it though, in the future you might change your mind? ________________________ I'M POOR
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Easy Trader
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:32:00 -
[9]
Well t2 missiles and the support skill, (missile projection etc) came well after t2 guns which already had its structure, guns do more damage and imo outside PvE they rock, but mostly probebly maybe CCP did it to avoid even more of an outcry than they got during the "Missile Nerf"
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:33:00 -
[10]
It has always seemed to me that you can get to the larger sizes of T2 missiles much faster than you can to the larger T2 hybrids, but I've never examined it in huge detail due to not caring that much. -
DesuSigs |
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bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:34:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Veldya The training times are horrendous. Shouldn't need the small and medium training if all you are interested in is large weapon combat because you fly nothing but battleships.
Turret training needs to change so it works more like missiles, with missiles I don't feel like I have wasted 6 months training stupid skills I never plan to use, if I had to go up in rocket and standard and heavy specialization to get to cruise or torps I'd be slashing my wrists.
The current system just makes it horrid to cross train, to go from blasters to projectiles to beams is just a freaking nightmare. It is silly that going from Caldari to Amarr to Minmatar battleship 5 is trivial compared to learning the difference between a blaster, autocannon and laser turret.
I¦m totally with you \o/ It should changed so that Calmari pilots also have to train missiles from scratch if they wanna use the big whoopdiwhoop ones, good call dude.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kaeten got all hybrid specilizations to 5 and your complaining
think about it though, in the future you might change your mind?
Hehehe, no. I was thinking it would be fun to fly some new Battleships but to go from T2 large hybrid to another T2 large turret is painful.
I didn't notice much with my gunner toon because I spent a lot of time at the frigate and cruiser level so got the gun skills up as I played, but I think the second time around you notice it a lot more.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.09.25 15:45:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jethro Jechonias ... and the 2-10% damage bonus, and the huge reduction in module cost.
Yeah, this is true. I think the way missiles are setup is much better. I think I went Cruise specialization, Heavy, Torp based on the kind of ships I was interested in flying at the time. I think it is much better having an easier time of training for something you want to fly.
If you want to use all T2 missile launchers then it will take you longer than a turret but at least you have the option to just focus on one thing at a time.
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.09.25 16:19:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Easy Trader Well t2 missiles and the support skill, (missile projection etc) came well after t2 guns which already had its structure, guns do more damage and imo outside PvE they rock, but mostly probebly maybe CCP did it to avoid even more of an outcry than they got during the "Missile Nerf"
Also if I recall correctly, missiles were never intended to be a 'primary' weapon system so they had lighter requirements. But now you have a bunch of raven pilots that want to be the best PvE AND PvP so they had to boost missiles to be stand-alone equivalent to turrets.
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Carnun Blodeuwedd
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Posted - 2008.09.25 16:19:00 -
[15]
Here are the times very roughly worked out if anyone is wondering:
T2 Light Missile Launchers = 1 Level 5, Rank (2) ~ 10 days
T2 Small Lasers = 1 Level 5, Rank (1) ~ 5 days
T2 Medium Missile Launchers = 1 Level 5, Rank (3) ~ 15 days
T2 Medium Lasers = 2 Level 5s, Ranks (3) & (1) ~ 20 days (+2 days in specialisation skills)
T2 Cruise Missile Launchers = 2 Level 5s, Ranks (5) & (1) ~ 30 days
T2 Large Lasers = 4 Level 5s, Ranks (5), (3), (2) & (1) ~ 55 days (+5 days in specialisation skills)
Time to be able to use any Missile Launcher: 55 days Time to be able to use any Laser Turret: 55-60 days
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Srioghal moDhream
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Posted - 2008.09.25 16:48:00 -
[16]
And those missile launchers it took 55 days to get into have absolutely no support skills.
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Drykor
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.09.25 16:57:00 -
[17]
I'm guessing it's because there's more missile support skills to get. But yeah even after that there's still a big difference for battleship t2 weapons.
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babylonstew
Caldari Caldari Scouting and Intel Group
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Posted - 2008.09.25 17:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Carnun Blodeuwedd Here are the times very roughly worked out if anyone is wondering:
T2 Light Missile Launchers = 1 Level 5, Rank (2) ~ 10 days
T2 Small Lasers = 1 Level 5, Rank (1) ~ 5 days
T2 Medium Missile Launchers = 1 Level 5, Rank (3) ~ 15 days
T2 Medium Lasers = 2 Level 5s, Ranks (3) & (1) ~ 20 days (+2 days in specialisation skills)
T2 Cruise Missile Launchers = 2 Level 5s, Ranks (5) & (1) ~ 30 days
T2 Large Lasers = 4 Level 5s, Ranks (5), (3), (2) & (1) ~ 55 days (+5 days in specialisation skills)
Time to be able to use any Missile Launcher: 55 days Time to be able to use any Laser Turret: 55-60 days
what happened to rockets, hams and torps? or dont they count?
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Kneebone
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Posted - 2008.09.25 17:12:00 -
[19]
Gun support skills support 3 types of weapons, missile skills are just missiles.
As far as training up to T2 Large Whatever it is only a valid excuse if all you fly is Battleships. I trained up my Amarr alt and I kept his laser skills up to par with the ship he was flying so when I went to my Abaddon, it didn't take all that long to hit T2 lasers. I'm moving into HAC's next so all the points into Medium lasers will be useful as well. The spec skills only require 4 to move up so that isn't much time either.
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Trinity Council
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Posted - 2008.09.25 19:26:00 -
[20]
i think they need to ADD to the skill requirments for missile launchers as well, add some ******ed support skills like you have to train for hyberids
example: for large hybrid tech 2 turrets (blasters) you need motion prediction to LVL 5, why not for torpedoes for example require the skill Missile Projection to Lvl V, it would bring it more in line w/ the skills for large t2 hybrids, (right now, would take me about 68 days to train straight up to large t2 turrets) w/ this addtion, it would take me 52 days to get t2 torp launchers and would benefit it
like for blasters (close range, so need good tracking skills) you need motion prediction (which increases tracking speed)
torpedoes have shitty range, so you should need missile projection (to increase torp range) it benefits it in a similar way large hybrid II's are benefited
same w/ cruise missiles, they might have crappy damage, so the skill Warhead upgrades should be lvl 5 for t2 cruise launchers, and again, it would benefit it
it is rather stupid i could train for t2 torps AND t2 cruise missiles (both together) in the same time it take s me to train up to my own races t2 guns, just ******ed, and a very UNFAIR adavantage for the caldari
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.25 21:08:00 -
[21]
Here is why you are wrong.
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.26 05:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
it is rather stupid i could train for t2 torps AND t2 cruise missiles (both together) in the same time it take s me to train up to my own races t2 guns, just ******ed, and a very UNFAIR adavantage for the caldari
Um, why is that unfair? That sounds pretty fair to me.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.26 08:39:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Carnun Blodeuwedd Here are the times very roughly worked out if anyone is wondering:
T2 Light Missile Launchers = 1 Level 5, Rank (2) ~ 10 days T2 Small Lasers = 1 Level 5, Rank (1) ~ 5 days T2 Medium Missile Launchers = 1 Level 5, Rank (3) ~ 15 days T2 Medium Lasers = 2 Level 5s, Ranks (3) & (1) ~ 20 days (+2 days in specialisation skills) T2 Cruise Missile Launchers = 2 Level 5s, Ranks (5) & (1) ~ 30 days T2 Large Lasers = 4 Level 5s, Ranks (5), (3), (2) & (1) ~ 55 days (+5 days in specialisation skills)
Time to be able to use any Missile Launcher: 55 days Time to be able to use any Laser Turret: 55-60 days
You fool. Include Rockets, HAMs and Torpss. Then include the support skills as well. Then account for transferable skills when switching between different turret systems. Then realise how silly you are.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.09.26 08:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Srioghal moDhream And those missile launchers it took 55 days to get into have absolutely no support skills.
There are only 2 support skills trained via T2 turret specialization, and that is only if you go for both long and short range guns. If you go for long range you get Sharpshooting (optimal range) and if you go short-range you get Motion Prediction (Tracking).
That is good and all, but going from rank 4 to rank 5 in a skill is less important than going from rank 0 to rank 4 in skills. When you are learning a whole swag of new skills being forced to take a lot of skills to 5 and a lot of specs to 4 drags out the time it takes to get the turret in your hand.
If you go straight for T2 Torps without getting the support skills they aren't going to be much use either, however, not having to take a whole bunch of useless crap allows you to get the support skills.
Say Player A wants to play with Torps and player B wants to play with Autocannons, both have nothing in terms of combat skills and have the same stats.
Minimum requirement for T2 Torp launcher skills are: Missile Launcher Operation 4 (x1) 45,255sp Standard Missiles 3 (x2) 16,000sp Heavy Missiles 3 (x3) 24,000sp Torpedoes 5 (x4) 1,024,000sp Torpedo Specialization 1 (x8) 2,000sp
Total minimum required for Launcher: 1,111,255sp To use T2 torps need MLO 5, an extra 210,745sp
You can now fire Torps at 1,322,000sp. Granted, not worthwhile without the support skills. However, there is a big diminishing return from rank 4 to rank 5 in terms of effect for the skill points.
So a good base would be to get the rest of the support skills to rank 4.
Guided Missile Precision (x5) 226,275sp Missile Bombardment (x2) 90,510sp Missile Projection (x4) 181,020sp Rapid Launch (x2) 90,510sp Target Navigation Prediction (x2) 90,510sp Warhead Upgrades (x5) 226,275sp (no FoF torps so don't need FoF Missiles)
You have just ponied out 905,100sp and got all the other support skills to rank 4. All up to date, Player A has invested 2,227,100sp and he is not that far off someone who has all 5s for missile skills. He can run off and be very effective with his Torps now.
Now we have Player B, poor, poor Player B, he needs to get the following skills to use the T2 Autocannons turrets:
Gunnery 5 (1x) 256,000sp Motion Prediction 5 (x2) 512,000sp Small Projectile Turret 5 (1x) 256,000 Small Autocannon Spec 4 (x3) 135,765 Medium Projectile Turret 5 (3x) 768,000 Medium Autocannon Spec 4 (x5) 226,275 Large Projectile Turret 5 (x5) 1,280,000 Large Autocannon Spec 1 (x8) 2,000
Remember, Play A got his T2 Torp Launcher at 1,111,255sp. Player B gets his shiny new Large Autocannon T2s after 3,436,040 with just ONE support skill. Player A has T2 torps and ALL missile support skills up to rank 4 and that was forever ago at only 2,227,100sp.
Player B has spent another 50% training time and is totally freaking useless with any kind of autocannon because he has been fart arsing around training medium and small autocannon skills when he has no need for them.
Player B is now thinking, shit I have to train Sharpshooting, Controlled Bursts, Motion Prediction, Rapid Firing, Surgical Strike and Trajectory Analysis on top of this cluster **** I have just spent the last 3 months training on. That is another 814,590sp to get to the same rank 4 basis of Player A, but it has now cost him 4,250,630SP.
If someone wants to have all the specializations then let them get them on an as needed basis, don't have crippling requirements if you are just interested in one type of weapon for an alternative ship.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.09.26 09:17:00 -
[25]
Veldspyar, you're completely missing the point. Comparing the training times for a single weapon (Cruise) against the training times to use all T2 turrets of one type is absurd and meaningless, because the turret user gets the ability to use the smaller T2 weapons along the way. You may not want to use those weapons - but your desires are not relevant, it is your capabilities that are important.
The missile skill tree is significantly longer than each turret one. More SP are required in the weapon skills, and more SP are required in the support skills.
But of course you know this, having thoroughly investigated the skill trees.
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Elsism
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Posted - 2008.09.26 09:46:00 -
[26]
Guns aren't missiles and missiles aren't guns. End of.
Hope this helps. x
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Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation
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Posted - 2008.09.26 10:04:00 -
[27]
There is no Missiles vs Turrets. There are Missiles vs Lasers vs Hybrids vs Projectiles.
To use all T2 in each of categories you need about 2 months. Support skills for turrets help when crosstraining to other turrets. Support skils in missiles benefit only missiles, but there's a benefit of being able to train only 1 kind of T2 launchers, without going through full T2 range.
Looks pretty balanced to me. EvE favors patient people.
--- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again! |
Mona X
Caldari Polish Task Forces C0VEN
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Posted - 2008.09.26 10:13:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Veldya
That is good and all, but going from rank 4 to rank 5 in a skill is less important than going from rank 0 to rank 4 in skills.
LEVEL!
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Rhak Amharr
Minmatar Genos Occidere deadspace society
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Posted - 2008.09.26 10:43:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Rhak Amharr on 26/09/2008 10:44:26 I totally agree with the OP. While we're at it, please change the following too:
- Boost missile support skills, because they're worse than gun support skills (4% RoF for Rapid Firing vs. 3% RoF for Rapid Launch, 3% dmg for Surgical Strike vs. 2% dmg of Warhead Upgrades; which is also Rank 4 vs. Rank 5) - Make only 1 basic skill per ship size instead of 2 (Small XXX Turret vs. Standard Missiles and Rockets)
- Now that they're more similar, but still not quite there, make missiles instahit and replace explosion velocity with tracking. The unused flight time and velocity should be replaced with optimal range and falloff (skills need to be added for that)
There, we have the perfect compromise!
Stop failing and accept differences between weapon systems.
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Ljonynja
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Posted - 2008.09.26 11:09:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Gypsio III You may not want to use those weapons - but your desires are not relevant, it is your capabilities that are important.
Yes they are. 0_o
My contribution to this thread will be to say that I am very, very happy that I am training missiles on this character as opposed to hybrids.
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