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Rezig Huruta
Pale Horse Ministry
0
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Posted - 2012.03.28 16:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi, I'm new to contracts (and a lot of stuff in Eve - like everything). I set up a contract for courier to deliver items 12 jumps from where I bought them.
I set the price to be 40,000 with the security deposit a paltry 6,000. In my wallet transaction I see the 40k go (plus whatever other fees). The mission expired (delivery date passed) and the 40,000 returned.
I emailed the courier who "got right on it" and I received an "item exchange" contract with the price of 600,000. Start station and end station are the same location (and, the same place I bought the things) - the items are:
Plastic Wrap (x1) Melted Capacitor (x4)
So, am I right in thinking that:
He took the mission (since he only had to put down 6,000 security) opened it up, decided it was worth more (about 40,000), didn't bother moving it, and then he created a NEW contract to try to sell the items to me at a ridiculous price?
If that's the case, I'm ok with it, but it sort of puts the kibosh on actually getting couriers if it is THAT easy to just screw other players. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
452
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Posted - 2012.03.28 16:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
You have to set your collateral at the market price or better of the goods you are having hauled, other wise people will take it and sell it them selves. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
449
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Posted - 2012.03.28 16:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
EvE is somewhat harsh and quite negative consequences free for "bad actions".
You'll get accustomed to that. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Rezig Huruta
Pale Horse Ministry
0
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Posted - 2012.03.28 16:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'll make sure the collateral is correct next time. I just figured people wouldn't take a mission if the collateral was too high. Mostly, I was wanting to make sure I understood precisely what happened, and it seems like I had it correct.
I'm quickly learning that EVE is full of players with ... loose morals who use the "It's a sandbox" to justify any behavior. But, as mentioned, the solution is there, high collateral.
Thanks for the info. I'll take it into account next time. |
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
216
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Posted - 2012.03.28 17:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Don't go for "high collateral", go for collateral representative of the cost of the goods you're having moved.
Collateral that's waaaay higher than the cost of the goods being moved suggests potential couriers are being set up for a suicide gank - ie. person A hires person B to courier stuff, person B desposits collateral into escrow, person A then blows the bejesus out of his courier (likely destroying the package, but that's irrelevant) and collects from escrow person B's collateral money by "way of compensation" for them failing to deliver.
As a rough rule of thumb, collateral higher than a billion tends to get looked upon as setup for this sort of suicide gank - but putting a half billion collateral on a package only worth a few million would also look rather suspect. |
Rezig Huruta
Pale Horse Ministry
0
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Posted - 2012.03.28 17:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thanks, Tekota, I'll be sure to use market value collateral. Seems that the ways to extort, scam or steal from other players is bound only by the creativity of other players! Very much like real life - minus the courts. Heh.
The scenario you just pointed out helps open my eyes a bit more on how everything in EVE works.
So, basically, I should have put a collateral at about $50k or $60 with a delivery payment of $40k to completely avoid the situation. |
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
216
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Posted - 2012.03.28 17:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Rezig Huruta wrote:Thanks, Tekota, I'll be sure to use market value collateral. Seems that the ways to extort, scam or steal from other players is bound only by the creativity of other players! Very much like real life - minus the courts. Heh.
The scenario you just pointed out helps open my eyes a bit more on how everything in EVE works.
So, basically, I should have put a collateral at about $50k or $60 with a delivery payment of $40k to completely avoid the situation.
No harm in rounding up a little on the collateral, if your package is worth 50k, then by all means put 60k collateral on it - if you're having it moved to a station where it's worth 80k you might want to factor that in and set collateral at 90k.
The reward payment is a trickier one. Professional haulage firms like Red Frog - http://red-frog.org/jumps.php - charge several hundred thousand isk per jump + pickup fees, and they're tremendously succesful doing so. Public courier contracts will often get delivered for waaaay less reward - a lot of public courier pilots really don't value their time and work for peanuts. Some people like to base reward as a percentage of collateral, some work out a per jump basis - personally I think the latter works better.
And if you're having goods shifted from one hub system to another you can often set *very* low rewards and get takers - hub systems are frequently travelled and many people will pick up *something* going one way to avoid dead heading the route. Taking goods from or to backwater systems will often require more reward. Something to be experimented with. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
452
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Posted - 2012.03.28 18:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rezig Huruta wrote: So, basically, I should have put a collateral at about $50k or $60 with a delivery payment of $40k to completely avoid the situation.
I base rewards on the size of the ship needed to haul the goods and the jumps. Anything under 10k M3 can be done by a newish player, who's other income opportunities limit how much they can make doing other things, so I price to be competitive with their other activities. Something 500,000 M3 is an older player with a freighter, so have to price with their opportunity cost in mind. |
Rezig Huruta
Pale Horse Ministry
0
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Posted - 2012.03.28 18:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yeah, the cargo being moved (4 melted capacitors, lol) have almost no bulk, so I figured a new player would pick up the mission, since the collateral was low, a new player could do it - and really, 40k is a pittance as a reward so I just figured I was doing a newer player a favor.
Ha. Not in EVE.
I suppose a new player that is actually LOOKING for courier missions would have more money available. I'm definitely still learning - and there's a lot of interaction to get used to. |
Radelix Cisko
The Adjustment Team
48
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Posted - 2012.03.29 18:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
I tend to under cut red frog a little bit when doing contracts. I also only do hisec shipping anyway |
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Scion Lex
LEX Investments Solid Foundation
6
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Posted - 2012.03.29 19:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Contract collateral should be what you expect to make by selling the product once it arrives. Simple as that. Anyone who is in the business of accepting public contracts knows that they need a hefty amount of isk on hand to cover collateral...just like any investment. In the event that the contract is compromised you will still make your numbers. I wouldn't put too much stock and trying to be competitive with others. In all honesty, if you post the collateral for its market value, it will get picked up regardless. Keep in mind a good hauler is trying to run as much as possible. They are more concerned about how far they are jumping and where. One trick that has worked for me in the past is making sure that none of my contracts exceed 3000 m3. This means that any decent hauler can choose to move all or part of the order. I also try to keep the reward above 10k isk per jump or a max of 15% of the market value of the item...which ever comes first. Its a basic formula that has yet to fail me. |
Usman Bello
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.03.30 13:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Greetings, I am the evil courier that stole this fine gentlemen's priceless commodities!
I was bored the other night and decided to start a courier service par excellence - one that would never deliver a single package. I did spend around 30 millions on some low paying contracts. Mostly with ridiculous rewards like the one Rezig put out at 3000 ISK per jump. It felt a little bit like playing the lottery.
To my own surprise I actually made an overall profit. But it is unlikely that I'm really going to bother picking up most of the junk that my collateral bought me. The laughs I had and a few mails written in tasty tears made it worthwhile anyway. More to come as I have like 17 contracts still in progress.
It turns out that people that are to cheap to properly pay for the work of others also have a tendency to undercollaterize. Maybe they think that more collateral would also mean a higher fee or as in this case no pickup at all given the pitiful reward. The best contract so far came from a guy that thought he might find some sucker willing to transport his 9,5 mil worth of PI stuff for less than 2000 ISK / jump. 500k collateral - Thank you sir!
Being a new player myself I became filthy rich by doing a lot of trading the last two months. Mostly by working with couriers, who enabled me to trade in goods too bulky and far too valuable to carry in my humble badger. Still I managed to pay them fair rates and in addition actually always tried to put in a little extra, even at times when I was pretty short on cash myself. Not because I'm running a charity... but because I value their service and believe that in a solid and continued business relationship everyone involved should prosper. I received a fast turnover in return and better profits for myself by doing so.
This also gave me some insight into the public courier market and it is disgusting at what kind of rates some people expect others to do deliveries for them. Trolling them is a delight.
Rezig Huruta wrote:... and really, 40k is a pittance as a reward so I just figured I was doing a newer player a favor.
How nice of you! Whom other than yourself would you do a favour with this? Funny how you manage to realize that your 40k reward is a pittance and call it a favour in the very same sentence.
If you really mean to do some new player a favour then pay him a real reward instead of exploiting the fact he is poor and limited in his options. That your cargo isn't worth anything doesn't really matter either, someone else still has to fly 12 jumps to deliver it.
Please spare me the "I can not afford to pay more, because..." bs. If so, get up and do the work yourself.
tl;dr
You get what you pay for. |
Rezig Huruta
Pale Horse Ministry
0
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Posted - 2012.03.30 16:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Glad you posted here, the collateral is the problem here, not the reward. The reward was the VALUE of the items. I also didn't call you evil, if that's what you want to call yourself, go for it
All you did (to me) is make it clear that I made a mistake with collateral. To say that I'm taking advantage of another player with a low value courier mission is absurd. The goods to be moved were tiny and could simply be added to any existing courier missions or if someone happened to be coming that way to purchase something else
The reason of my posting here was to determine HOW the system works - and how I should be creating courier missions that make sense.
I did not bring up your name because I wanted to make sure I was understanding what happened.
As an aside, I thought your emails were hilarious.
I was really expecting a response like: "Friend! This is not extortion! The fuel costs have gone up, and I am verrrrry fast! I will drive in car no stops, not even to pee!
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Usman Bello
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.03.30 17:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Rezig Huruta wrote:To say that I'm taking advantage of another player with a low value courier mission is absurd. You wanted a free ride. Come on, in your case the reward is hardly worth even clicking the two buttons to accept and finish the contract, let alone the time necessary a real courier would need to check that he isn't about to get scammed himself.
Rezig Huruta wrote:The reason of my posting here was to determine HOW the system works - and how I should be creating courier missions that make sense. Create them applying common sense and with respect to your fellow players and chances are that they will treat you the same way. Even in EVE.
Rezig Huruta wrote:As an aside, I thought your emails were hilarious. They were meant to be, glad you enjoyed them. |
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