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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.09.18 05:56:00 -
[1]
This morning, my iTunes started downloading a new TED video. It's an awesome place for finding interesting talks.
This morning, I received a speech about the moral mind. I was watching it on the train on my way to school and I thought I had to share this.
You can find it here. Watch it right away.
I found that it was extremely interesting from the perspective of CSM. It describes the exact problem which the CSM has - Lack of cooperation.
There's 2 parts to this speech which you should take note of:
1. Moral purity - The battle against good and evil
He talks about stepping out of the "moral matrix", which I think fits quite well. There's no right and wrong.
2. Cooperation - Making the CSM cooperate for making the world a better place.
He shows an interesting concept of how punishment increases cooperation. There's a nice slide around 11:00 into the video. Please note that I'm NOT justifying punishment in the CSM.
You can easily identify certain people from the CSM in this speech(The opposite of offense intended). It just goes to show that the CSM is no different from the real world. So we aren't doomed at all.
Now that you have watched the video, I will let you make up your own mind. But I will make these points, which I think we should discuss:
1. CSM members should be pushed by the community to represent them while contributing with their own experience.
2. By giving the CSM incentive to work together, the CSM can be taken to the next level.
Is this so, you think? Can we achieve progress in the concept of CSM by stepping out of the moral matrixes and be encouraged to cooperate.
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ProduceMoreThanks
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Posted - 2008.09.18 15:27:00 -
[2]
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Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.09.18 15:27:00 -
[3]
Puff Puff Give
 Originally by: Iroku Mata
Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.18 23:16:00 -
[4]
TED is great and all - Bert Rutan's speech from 2006 is one of my favourites in a long time - but I'm not wholly sure of the applicability of this one. Assuming you don't intend to poll CSM members on their political inclinations, about the only piece of actionable information is that punishment for antisociability yields more sociable behaviour, and unless you intend to declare war on the Goons to punish Darius for not posting on the forums more often, that's not especially practical. And the one member whom indirect punishment has been tried on - Jade - has proven wholly impervious to that pressure, with no sign that he viewed it as anything other than half joke and half dark Goonish conspiracy.
Also, the bit about "there is no right and wrong" is absolute nonsense. Aside from the blatant contradiction(a statement that, if accurate, destroys the entire concept of accuracy), it is also a direct attack on the entire structure of human thought. I can buy the talk's implication that most societal debates should be treated as less of a shrill moral imperative than it is currently, and that stepping back and analyzing issues dispassionately is a good thing, but abandoning the entire concept of right and wrong turns your brain into oatmeal.
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Fix the forums! |
Scagga Laebetrovo
Evil Bastards
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.09.19 11:11:00 -
[5]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
1. CSM members should be pushed by the community to represent them while contributing with their own experience.
2. By giving the CSM incentive to work together, the CSM can be taken to the next level.
Is this so, you think? Can we achieve progress in the concept of CSM by stepping out of the moral matrixes and be encouraged to cooperate.
My opinion is of no value, please move on. Hey! I'll give it anyway:
- The CSM members were elected to work together
- CSM issues surrounding 'working together' are much harder to resolve if spotlights are shed upon them in the public eye. One of the important rules of diplomacy is to not make your 'opponent' lose face. This mistake can be made if one takes the public approach in resolving personal/other issues between CSM members.
- Lastly, I call shenanigans!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 13:03:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Originally by: LaVista Vista
1. CSM members should be pushed by the community to represent them while contributing with their own experience.
2. By giving the CSM incentive to work together, the CSM can be taken to the next level.
Is this so, you think? Can we achieve progress in the concept of CSM by stepping out of the moral matrixes and be encouraged to cooperate.
My opinion is of no value, please move on. Hey! I'll give it anyway:
- The CSM members were elected to work together
- CSM issues surrounding 'working together' are much harder to resolve if spotlights are shed upon them in the public eye. One of the important rules of diplomacy is to not make your 'opponent' lose face. This mistake can be made if one takes the public approach in resolving personal/other issues between CSM members.
- Lastly, I call shenanigans!
Have to agree. Absolutely nothing can be resolved with public discussions between CSM delegates when many are obligated to play up to the reputation and leadership roles they have elsewhere in the community. Nobody wants to admit they are wrong, mistaken, or that the other side has a point.
Hell even the non-leadership experienced delegates got elected in the first place by having robust argumentative attributes and ego combined and its a bit ridiculous to expect any of them to check in that ego at the door when debating passionate issues on the eve forums.
Making a public challenge or attack on another committee member invariably leads to the spectator sport of baiting and trolling and further reduces to ability to actually get anything done.
There is a reason smoke-filled rooms are the places where things get done.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.09.19 15:22:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Have to agree. Absolutely nothing can be resolved with public discussions between CSM delegates when many are obligated to play up to the reputation and leadership roles they have elsewhere in the community. Nobody wants to admit they are wrong, mistaken, or that the other side has a point.
Hell even the non-leadership experienced delegates got elected in the first place by having robust argumentative attributes and ego combined and its a bit ridiculous to expect any of them to check in that ego at the door when debating passionate issues on the eve forums.
Making a public challenge or attack on another committee member invariably leads to the spectator sport of baiting and trolling and further reduces to ability to actually get anything done.
There is a reason smoke-filled rooms are the places where things get done.
Quoting the exact opposite of how any democratic system should function. Smoke filled rooms are where roaches hide. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
Pot calling kettle black is another one. I'll edit this if I can come up with some more old sayings that apply to the quoted post.
:edit:
*goes out of his way to insult, degrade and berate other council members in any venue he can access*
*posts about how everyone else just can't get along*
Originally by: Iroku Mata
Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 17:25:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 19/09/2008 15:38:07
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Have to agree. Absolutely nothing can be resolved with public discussions between CSM delegates when many are obligated to play up to the reputation and leadership roles they have elsewhere in the community. Nobody wants to admit they are wrong, mistaken, or that the other side has a point.
Hell even the non-leadership experienced delegates got elected in the first place by having robust argumentative attributes and ego combined and its a bit ridiculous to expect any of them to check in that ego at the door when debating passionate issues on the eve forums.
Making a public challenge or attack on another committee member invariably leads to the spectator sport of baiting and trolling and further reduces to ability to actually get anything done.
There is a reason smoke-filled rooms are the places where things get done.
Quoting the exact opposite of how any democratic system should function. Smoke filled rooms are where roaches hide. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
Pot calling kettle black is another one. I'll edit this if I can come up with some more old sayings that apply to the quoted post.
:edit:
*goes out of his way to insult, degrade and berate other council members in any venue he can access*
*posts lamenting how everyone else just can't get along*
Thanks for illustrating my point so perfectly.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.09.19 17:31:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Thanks for illustrating my point so perfectly.
Your point was "We should do everything in secret". I disagree. Don't like people not agreeing join a council made up of only yourself. I've just as much a right to express my opinion to the contrary as you did to agree.
Maybe you should go back and read the mailing list, shc, your irc logs, and anywhere else you posted where you became the only person on the council guilty of what you're posting against here (and likely the very topic of this thread and post).
Sorry if you feel you should be able to say whatever you want until it comes back to you, then claim some moral high-ground as if you're above it all when in actuality you're the first one to sling mud and sling it dirty. That world just doesn't exist so get over it.
Originally by: Iroku Mata
Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 17:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Your point was "We should do everything in secret".
No my point was that you can't discuss anything civilly in public because you are acting as a cheer-leader for 5000 goons.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.09.19 17:35:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 19/09/2008 17:35:43
Originally by: Jade Constantine
No my point was that you can't discuss anything civilly in public because you are acting as a cheer-leader for 5000 goons.
I AM a cheerleader for 5000 goons (A base a few thousand larger than your voterbase FYI). You, on the other hand, are a hypocrite who likes to throw stones then feign moral outrage when they come back in your direction. The difference between us is I'm not pretending I'm something I'm not.
Originally by: Iroku Mata
Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 17:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
hypocrite
I'm glad you've heard a new word for the day Darius - but it really doesn't mean what you appear to think it does.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Bane Glorious
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Posted - 2008.09.19 19:40:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Personal attacks are not permitted on the forums. ~Saint
Personally, I find that this level of discourse is beneath the decorum of the CSM, and I shall retire from further conversations until such personal attacks cease to pollute it. |
Santaria Boon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 19:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Personal attacks are not permitted on the forums. ~Saint
Hey Saint you missed the ban button. I'll give you a hint, it's the one you pressed on Darius for the same reason. I'll give you a second hint: You were wrong on both counts.
Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner
Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto |
KeratinBoy
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:20:00 -
[15]
Jade, this is what happens when you allow too much democracy.
DO YOU SEE?
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Maximus Imbecillus
Player Corporation 104
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:22:00 -
[16]
FREE DARIUS JOHNSON
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:31:00 -
[17]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 19/09/2008 20:37:12
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 19/09/2008 20:31:45
Originally by: Jade Constantine
There is a reason smoke-filled rooms are the places where things get done.
Such as?
BTW...thread is awesome....would read again.
**EDIT**Also....."transparency"...remember?
**EDIT**OP: No. Shitty corporate buzzwords probably won't translate well here given that they only make sense to those driven by synergistic leverage of existing paradigms and left to rot as roadkill on the information superhighway.
Huh?
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:40:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 19/09/2008 20:41:56
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 19/09/2008 20:31:45
Originally by: Jade Constantine
There is a reason smoke-filled rooms are the places where things get done.
Such as?
As pointed out in the thread. In public people are too conscious of their reputations and notoriety and pride. Nobody will give an inch on these public forums while their alliance mates and audience are measuring each word and nuance and cheerleaders are performing rap-posse chorus lines to whip up the crowds.
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Take the UK house of parliament as example.
No deals happen during PM's questions.
The real politicking occurs out of the public view because thats where politicians can actually meet in the middle and engage in horse-trading outside of the sight of the partisan masses hurling abuse at each other.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Santaria Boon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As pointed out in the thread. In public people are too conscious of their reputations and notoriety and pride. Nobody will give an inch on these public forums while their alliance mates and audience are measuring each word and nuance and cheerleaders are performing rap-posse chorus lines to whip up the crowds.
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Take the UK house of parliament as example.
No deals happen during PM's questions.
The real politicking occurs out of the public view because thats where politicians can actually meet in the middle and engage in horse-trading outside of the sight of the partisan masses hurling abuse at each other.
You're confusing the UK with a true democracy. Online space games don't need some fancy private lounge and that's counter-productive. CCP employees already have that. We don't need a council that mimics the opaqueness of CCP. If you can't handle having your actions and their results scrutinized in public then don't make them.
Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner
Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Santaria Boon
You're confusing the UK with a true democracy. Online space games don't need some fancy private lounge and that's counter-productive. CCP employees already have that. We don't need a council that mimics the opaqueness of CCP. If you can't handle having your actions and their results scrutinized in public then don't make them.
Quite obviously you are mistaken - since this CSM has run into the problem where CSM delegates are incapable of having a respectful and civil discussion on the public forums because one side feels the need to play up to it's member base and bully and verbally harangue the others.
This CSM has been crippled by the mutual animosity of members. And that has only been made worse by the involvement of 3rd party partisan flamers and trolls through the process. These forums have not been a decent setting for debate since the election and your alliance (Goonswarm) has to bear a lot of responsibility for that.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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KeratinBoy
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 20:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As pointed out in the thread. In public people are too conscious of their reputations and notoriety and pride. Nobody will give an inch on these public forums while their alliance mates and audience are measuring each word and nuance and cheerleaders are performing rap-posse chorus lines to whip up the crowds.
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Maybe if they are egotistical asterisks. This is internet spaceships, if you are taking it that seriously, you have mental problems.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:02:00 -
[22]
Originally by: KeratinBoy
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As pointed out in the thread. In public people are too conscious of their reputations and notoriety and pride. Nobody will give an inch on these public forums while their alliance mates and audience are measuring each word and nuance and cheerleaders are performing rap-posse chorus lines to whip up the crowds.
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Maybe if they are egotistical asterisks. This is internet spaceships, if you are taking it that seriously, you have mental problems.
So where do you get off alleging mental problems exactly?
You don't know anything about me.
Why can't you have a discussion without getting personal?
Why is it neccessary that virtually every single discussion I have with a Goonswarm poster on these forums ends up with flames and personal attacks?
Can you answer me that?
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:08:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: KeratinBoy
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As pointed out in the thread. In public people are too conscious of their reputations and notoriety and pride. Nobody will give an inch on these public forums while their alliance mates and audience are measuring each word and nuance and cheerleaders are performing rap-posse chorus lines to whip up the crowds.
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Maybe if they are egotistical asterisks. This is internet spaceships, if you are taking it that seriously, you have mental problems.
So where do you get off alleging mental problems exactly?
You don't know anything about me.
Why can't you have a discussion without getting personal?
Why is it neccessary that virtually every single discussion I have with a Goonswarm poster on these forums ends up with flames and personal attacks?
Can you answer me that?
- Because your a bad poster.
- Because your a Troll.
- Because your role play a girl.
- Because you write :words:
There's probably lots more thou.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:10:00 -
[24]
Sigh, ah well, nobody can say I don't try to talk to you people.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Santaria Boon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Santaria Boon
You're confusing the UK with a true democracy. Online space games don't need some fancy private lounge and that's counter-productive. CCP employees already have that. We don't need a council that mimics the opaqueness of CCP. If you can't handle having your actions and their results scrutinized in public then don't make them.
Quite obviously you are mistaken - since this CSM has run into the problem where CSM delegates are incapable of having a respectful and civil discussion on the public forums because one side feels the need to play up to it's member base and bully and verbally harangue the others.
This CSM has been crippled by the mutual animosity of members. And that has only been made worse by the involvement of 3rd party partisan flamers and trolls through the process. These forums have not been a decent setting for debate since the election and your alliance (Goonswarm) has to bear a lot of responsibility for that.
The Goonswarm representatives on the council seem to be able to work with everyone else on the council. The other members on the council seem to be able to work fine with Goonswarm. The only person who seems to be unable to do anything in this regard is you.
Of course you'll never understand that or admit to that as it's your serial problem, but the facts are pretty plain for anyone looking at the process to see.
Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner
Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto |
KeratinBoy
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.19 21:22:00 -
[26]
Edited by: KeratinBoy on 19/09/2008 21:25:20
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: KeratinBoy
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As pointed out in the thread. In public people are too conscious of their reputations and notoriety and pride. Nobody will give an inch on these public forums while their alliance mates and audience are measuring each word and nuance and cheerleaders are performing rap-posse chorus lines to whip up the crowds.
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Maybe if they are egotistical asterisks. This is internet spaceships, if you are taking it that seriously, you have mental problems.
So where do you get off alleging mental problems exactly?
You don't know anything about me.
Generic you, not personal you.
Quote:
Why can't you have a discussion without getting personal?
Why is it neccessary that virtually every single discussion I have with a Goonswarm poster on these forums ends up with flames and personal attacks?
Can you answer me that?
Honestly, what you get up to in your personal life is of absolutely no interest to me. As to the rest, if you post sideswipes at a bunch of people more often than not, there's no point getting your knickers in a twist if that bunch of people throws a few swipes back.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.09.20 01:14:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 20/09/2008 01:18:57
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Quite obviously you are mistaken - since this CSM has run into the problem where CSM delegates are incapable of having a respectful and civil discussion on the public forums because one side feels the need to play up to it's member base and bully and verbally harangue the others.
Now now, I'm sure Star Fraction would understand if you laid off.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
So where do you get off alleging mental problems exactly?
You don't know anything about me.
Why can't you have a discussion without getting personal?
Why is it neccessary that virtually every single discussion I have with a Goonswarm poster on these forums ends up with flames and personal attacks?
Can you answer me that?
Rhetorical excess. If you think a phrase like "If you think that, then you have mental problems" is meant literally, you need to visit the Internet sometime.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Sigh, ah well, nobody can say I don't try to talk to you people.
You throw words at them, sure, but actual discussion? No way.
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Fix the forums! |
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.20 01:33:00 -
[28]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 20/09/2008 01:33:55
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Whereas in a private smoke-filled room deals get done.
Take the UK house of parliament as example.
No deals happen during PM's questions.
The real politicking occurs out of the public view because thats where politicians can actually meet in the middle and engage in horse-trading outside of the sight of the partisan masses hurling abuse at each other.
Transparency
Transparency
Transparency
Which of course is fully defeated by your desire to be able to giggle and whisper in private.
And the folks you represent I'm sure appreciate being referred to as "partisan masses".
And of course comparing the CSM (and by extension-yourself) to the British government is a pretty good fantasy.
Oh...and transparency. Save the groping in smoke-filled rooms for your RP mates.
**EDIT**Eagerly awaiting LaVista slagging you off in true Janus-like fashion  .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.20 13:29:00 -
[29]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Transparency
Transparency
Transparency
So I take it you simply don't agree with the point that people play up to an audience of their mates in public and are generally more reasonable and open to negotiation when they are in a private conference with other delegates then?
Put it this way. In Iceland we had zero histrionics - zero personal attacks - zero trolling and flaming across the conference table in the formal meetings.
Sure part of that is that face to face people are far less outrageously insulting than they tend to be on the internet - but also because they are removed from the gaze and urgings of their mates they are able to function in a less combatant role.
This isn't alien technology and bizarre philosophical pipe-dream theory I'm telling you here. This is how human beings function, its how groups interact with groups.
Go and talk to a group of beered-up Arsenal fans on saturday night about the failings of their midfield game you'll get laughed at, you'll see group dynamics, hostility, hell, if it was Millwall fans you might get a serious kicking (especially if you were wearing some other team's shirt). But meet one of those guys on monday at work round the coffee machine you'd get an entirely different attitude and might even have a decent discussion.
People Play up to their mates. In eve you have a situation where that group of "mates" can be 5000 strong and you simply aren't going to get any kind of decent discussion with people playing up to 5000 partisan supporters against in-game enemies and hated rivals.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.20 15:52:00 -
[30]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 20/09/2008 15:53:59
Originally by: Jade Constantine
1-Put it this way. In Iceland we had zero histrionics - zero personal attacks - zero trolling and flaming across the conference table in the formal meetings.
2-This isn't alien technology and bizarre philosophical pipe-dream theory I'm telling you here. This is how human beings function, its how groups interact with groups.
1-In Iceland you all were there on an all-expense paid boondoggle with CCP's stars in your eyes. Of course you will be happy little friendly bunnies with CCP footing the beer bill, giving you tours, nodding sagely at your sugestions, and telling you "you really matter and will make a difference".
On return from Iceland-hello reality of not mattering. Nto to mention the outcome of certain discussions, votes, and statements made by yourself and others on the CSM.
2-The crap you run on about (and the corporate hogwash our schoolboy LV has recently discovered) is exactly why engineers, technicians, cops, firefighters, nurses, bricklayers, hod carriers, farmers et all will ALWAYS be more relevant and useful than you annoying double-speaking non-productive cerebral types otherwise known as marketing and communication types.
A hod carrier can turn around at any time and point to the building site rising out of nowhere from his hard work. All you corporate advisors, marketers, and related rubbish types are capable of is filling rooms with hot air, killing trees due to reams of analysis leading to coffee stains as corporate logo's, and hogging bandwidth on forums in some effort to make yourself appear relevant and important.
tl;dr?
Hod carriers>you.
And your inability to get along with others on the CSM is YOUR failure...not the fault of non-CSM outsiders.
Also...in case you missed it:
Transparency
Transparency
Transparency
Which was the supposed original intent of the CSM. Trying to do "deals" without full view of the folks who play--and pay for--this game is utter bullshit and smacks of elitism.
**** yeah
**EDIT**Darius is right btw...read this again in case you missed it:
Smoke filled rooms are where roaches hide. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
Word.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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